# Government regulated trade licensing



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I used to be in favor of licensing for electricians in years past, but my thinking has come completely around on this subject. I now believe a government issued trade license is not even worth the paper it's written on and is a waste of time and resources. I think trade licensing should be abolished. Let's discuss.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Figure out a test that you would think any reasonable, knowledgeable electrician should be able to pass and give it to us. Most will fail. Accountability is what it's about. I have been to the yearly code "upgrade" classes and the idiots just try to sign in and then sneak out. Someone has to be in control.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

I'd prefer to have someone who has worked under a journeyman for 8000 hours, taken 1000 hours of classroom training, and passed a test, do electrical work, over someone who thinks 2 wires from a switch to a fixtures, in free air, with no protection, is acceptable.

Even better would be additional mandatory field tests (conduit install, wire size calculation, grounding, devicing, terminations, code) yearly.

No licensing would result in more fires, shocks, possible electrocutions, and eroding trade reputation. That's my opinion.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I used to be in favor of licensing for electricians in years past, but my thinking has come completely around on this subject. I now believe a government issued trade license is not even worth the paper it's written on and is a waste of time and resources. I think trade licensing should be abolished. Let's discuss.


Good Idea, lets DE-profesionalise the electrical trade and bring it down to lowest pay possible.

$8per hour = $320 per week - $105.60 for the democrats= $214.00 per week take home without paying for HI....... $214 x 52 =11,148.80---- what an awesome idea Pete.....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Good Idea, lets DE-profesionalise the electrical trade and bring it down to lowest pay possible.
> 
> $8per hour = $320 per week - $105.60 for the democrats= $214.00 per week take home without paying for HI....... $214 x 52 =11,148.80---- what an awesome idea Pete.....


Watch your blood pressure.:thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Good Idea, lets DE-profesionalise the electrical trade and bring it down to lowest pay possible.
> 
> $8per hour = $320 per week - $105.60 for the democrats= $214.00 per week take home without paying for HI....... $214 x 52 =11,148.80---- what an awesome idea Pete.....


How would the elimination of government issued trade licensing lower the pay? I'm not sure I follow the math.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> How would the elimination of government issued trade licensing lower the pay? I'm not sure I follow the math.


Harry always vomits out the same reply when this subject comes up that somehow lack of a license automatically means minimum wage for electricians. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that is far from the truth.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> How would the elimination of government issued trade licensing lower the pay? I'm not sure I follow the math.


It is not that the Government is the GOD of all certificates but that, at least those who have passed the criteria that is respected and then have the Government seal of approval, a level of respect and professionalism is available.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> I'd prefer to have someone who has worked under a journeyman for 8000 hours, taken 1000 hours of classroom training, and passed a test, do electrical work, over someone who thinks 2 wires from a switch to a fixtures, in free air, with no protection, is acceptable.


An apprenticeship means nothing. An apprentice might do nothing but run conduit and pull wire, or rope houses, or in NYC might carry material up high rise buildings all day long. 

There are plenty of electricians with high aptitude, are fast learners and who are excellent at their job without a piece of paper in hand and have never done an apprenticeship. Conversely there are plenty of licensed electricians who could do a 20 year apprenticeship and still nothing more than installers.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Lack of license requirements means every single residential general contractor on the face of planet Earth, suddenly will become your next electrician, because we all have heard em repeatedly say '' electrical is easy, anybody can do it'' and '' Electricians charge too much''.
;'


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> An apprenticeship means nothing. An apprentice might do nothing but run conduit and pull wire, or rope houses, or in NYC might carry material up high rise buildings all day long.
> 
> There are plenty of electricians with high aptitude, are fast learners and who are excellent at their job without a piece of paper in hand and have never done an apprenticeship. Conversely there are plenty of licensed electricians who could do a 20 year apprenticeship and still nothing more than installers.


Any licensed electrician ,who with 20 years experience considers himself an installer...Deserves it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Electricians have been conditioned to accept government interference in this aspect of their lives.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Lack of license requirements means every single residential general contractor on the face of planet Earth, suddenly will become your next electrician, because we all have heard em repeatedly say '' electrical is easy, anybody can do it'' and '' Electricians charge too much''.
> ;'


I've got news for you - that happens in places where licensing already exists.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> How would the elimination of government issued trade licensing lower the pay? I'm not sure I follow the math.


Okay, Up here a Licensed Journeyman is worth $35 an hour...Someone who says he is an electrician without any credentials is worth minimum wage, it is simple math--supply and demand, also one of the biggest selling point is that professionals will be doing the work, eliminate the professional license and you simply have low wage labor to sell, there is not much profit in that.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm all for a U.S. Red seal for electrical workers. It would be 2 major fields.
Electrician- LV, resi, commercial, and industrial, and an overall unlimited (all work under 1000V)
Power line technician- overhead transmission distribution, underground distribution, substations, unlimited.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Harry always vomits out the same reply when this subject comes up that somehow lack of a license automatically means minimum wage for electricians. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that is far from the truth.


Pete feel free to rip up all of your licenses, let see how well you'll do then:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

JW Splicer said:


> I'm all for a U.S. Red seal for electrical workers. It would be 2 major fields.
> Electrician- LV, resi, commercial, and industrial, and an overall unlimited (all work under 1000V)
> Power line technician- overhead transmission distribution, underground distribution, substations, unlimited.


If you could push all of that in Seattle, we would appreciate it.:thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

The less money I have to give the government the better.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> The less money I have to give the government the better.


Exactly. :thumbsup: Guys like Harry will scream "Give me liberty and freedom!" all day long, but on this issue they become total hypocrites.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> The less money I have to give the government the better.


What is the date of your License?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The National Science Foundation actually gave money to study this very topic. (Grant number APR 75-16792). There were many very interesting findings related to licensing electricians. 

I'll share one tidbit from the study. In 1950, only 5 states licensed electricians. In 1960, only 7 states licensed electricians. In 1968, things took off, and 21 states licensed electricians. On notable result, the study found, was marked decrease in electrician per capita density. This was due to the new restrictive requirements (testing and experience requirements). The study went on to find that this reduction in per capita electricians that resulted from the licensing requirements increased accidental deaths by electric shock by 7 times.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Pete feel free to rip up all of your licenses, let see how well you'll do then:laughing:


I'll do just fine as most people have no clue what it takes to be a licensed electrician or that a license is even required for electrical work.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The National Science Foundation actually gave money to study this very topic. (Grant number APR 75-16792). There were many very interesting findings related to licensing electricians.
> 
> I'll share one tidbit from the study. In 1950, only 5 states licensed electricians. In 1960, only 7 states licensed electricians. In 1968, things took off, and 21 states licensed electricians. On notable result, the study found, was marked decrease in electrician per capita density. This was due to the new restrictive requirements (testing and experience requirements). The study went on to find that this reduction in per capita electricians that resulted from the licensing requirements increased accidental deaths by electric shock by 7 times.


First thing that I would like to bring up is that all of the results cannot be in. You only mentioned ACCIDENTAL electrocutions. Secondly, oh, well...enough said.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> What is the date of your License?


Don't have one don't need one. Less money I have to give away for nothing.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Im all for licensing, I just wish it were more coherent between states. Other countries treat a trade certificate like a college degree. Why would we go backwards and make it no better than a GED? That's absurd. We already have a bunch of hacks that took the cheater course for the licenses without hands on tests. Why would we want to make every moron out there an electrician?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Okay, Up here a Licensed Journeyman is worth $35 an hour...Someone who says he is an electrician without any credentials is worth minimum wage, it is simple math--supply and demand, also one of the biggest selling point is that professionals will be doing the work, eliminate the professional license and you simply have low wage labor to sell, there is not much profit in that.


So basically what you're admitting is that an electrician can't hustle and prove his worth on his own, he needs a government permission slip (license) in his pocket to do that for him.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> First thing that I would like to bring up is that all of the results cannot be in. You only mentioned ACCIDENTAL electrocutions. Secondly, oh, well...enough said.


Actually, they are. You can read it for yourself, but I'm sure you won't. 

From the report's summary: "... there existed a strong negative association between per capita numbers of an occupation and measures of per capita quality of service received. Further, almost as consistently, restrictive licensing appeared to significantly lower the stocks of licensees. There is, then, evidence from several professions and trades that indicates that restrictive licensing may lower received service quality. We know of no contrary findings. This result can be quite useful in evaluation of present licensing statutes and in contemplation of future acts. "


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Don't have one don't need one. Less money I have to give away for nothing.


It's an easy "hole" to find yourself in but you have to know that you will feel more fulfilled if you are "legitimate". I was there.........before I realized that I knew EVERYTHING.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MTW said:


> So basically what you're admitting is that an electrician can't hustle and prove his worth on his own, he needs a government permission slip (license) in his pocket to do that for him.


Like a government bailout under the guise of somehow providing a more quality tradesperson. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> Actually, they are. You can read it for yourself, but I'm sure you won't.
> 
> From the report's summary: "... there existed a strong negative association between per capita numbers of an occupation and measures of per capita quality of service received. Further, almost as consistently, restrictive licensing appeared to significantly lower the stocks of licensees. There is, then, *evidence from several professions and trades that indicates that restrictive licensing may lower received service quality.* We know of no contrary findings. This result can be quite useful in evaluation of present licensing statutes and in contemplation of future acts. "


Though not stated, this is because a license restricts free market activity, and therefore there is no incentive to deliver quality work because the license restriction has essentially frozen out most competition.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MTW said:


> Though not stated, this is because a license restricts free market activity, and therefore there is no incentive to deliver quality work because the license restriction has essentially frozen out most competition.


In fact, that was one of the findings of the report across many trades and professions. Not just electricians.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It's an easy "hole" to find yourself in but you have to know that you will feel more fulfilled if you are "legitimate". I was there.........before I realized that I knew EVERYTHING.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


Where do you propose I acquire this magic piece of paper from?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Though not stated, this is because a license restricts free market activity, and therefore there is no incentive to deliver quality work because the license restriction has essentially frozen out most competition.


I have never met an electrician that was not proud of the fact that he acquired his license.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The National Science Foundation actually gave money to study this very topic. (Grant number APR 75-16792). There were many very interesting findings related to licensing electricians.
> 
> I'll share one tidbit from the study. In 1950, only 5 states licensed electricians. In 1960, only 7 states licensed electricians. In 1968, things took off, and 21 states licensed electricians. On notable result, the study found, was marked decrease in electrician per capita density. This was due to the new restrictive requirements (testing and experience requirements). The study went on to find that this reduction in per capita electricians that resulted from the licensing requirements increased accidental deaths by electric shock by 7 times.


Da fark you say, in 1950... That was back when scientists and doctors were all sure you would surely drown if you went swimming within an hour of eating.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Where do you propose I acquire this magic piece of paper from?


Better look hard. You'll suddenly double your income and provide a much higher quality service when they hand it to you. :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I have never met an electrician that was not proud of the fact that he acquired his license.


Not a doubt. I'm proud of most of the credentials I've obtained. The debate is whether the government has any business requiring it.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> The National Science Foundation actually gave money to study this very topic. (Grant number APR 75-16792). There were many very interesting findings related to licensing electricians.
> 
> I'll share one tidbit from the study. In 1950, only 5 states licensed electricians. In 1960, only 7 states licensed electricians. In 1968, things took off, and 21 states licensed electricians. On notable result, the study found, was marked decrease in electrician per capita density. This was due to the new restrictive requirements (testing and experience requirements). The study went on to find that this reduction in per capita electricians that resulted from the licensing requirements increased accidental deaths by electric shock by 7 times.





MDShunk said:


> Actually, they are. You can read it for yourself, but I'm sure you won't.
> 
> From the report's summary: "... there existed a strong negative association between per capita numbers of an occupation and measures of per capita quality of service received. Further, almost as consistently, restrictive licensing appeared to significantly lower the stocks of licensees. There is, then, evidence from several professions and trades that indicates that restrictive licensing may lower received service quality. We know of no contrary findings. This result can be quite useful in evaluation of present licensing statutes and in contemplation of future acts. "


Here is what the study does not say, the study itself is just a sophisticated way to fool states into thinking the licensing lowers the quality of work, but the purpose of the study is to get rid of such statutes so the the market can be flooded with enough labor that wages will be as low as possible, which is what those who called for the study really want. It's all about the labor costs flood the labor market and at the same time create a recession and wha laa free labor for all, and those who work in the trade will simply live on food stamps and public housing.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Da fark you say, in 1950... That was back when scientists and doctors were all sure you would surely drown if you went swimming within an hour of eating.


Not sure what that has to do with statistical analysis, which is the methodology by which the study was done. A 2-sample T test is just math. That hasn't changed since the aliens gave that technology to the Egyptians.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Better look hard. You'll suddenly double your income and provide a much higher quality service when they hand it to you. :laughing:


Yikes, I don't wanna pay myself that much.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Not a doubt. I'm proud of most of the credentials I've obtained. The debate is whether the government has any business requiring it.


I am with you but at this point, as you know, without some controls by SOMEONE, the jacklegs will do their thing because the "cheap" homeowner does not know the difference.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Here is what the study does not say, the study itself is just a sophisticated way to fool states into thinking the licensing lowers the quality of work, but the purpose of the study is to get rid of such statutes so the the market can be flooded with enough labor that wages will be as low as possible, which is what those who called for the study really want. It's all about the labor costs flood the labor market and at the same time create a recession and wha laa free labor for all, and those who work in the trade will simply live on food stamps and public housing.


The study is just a collection of data. You can't really argue with data. Sort of like saying it's sunny when it's raining out.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Here is what the study does not say, the study itself is just a sophisticated way to fool states into thinking the licensing lowers the quality of work, but the purpose of the study is to get rid of such statutes so the the market can be flooded with enough labor that wages will be as low as possible, which is what those who called for the study really want. It's all about the labor costs flood the labor market and at the same time create a recession and wha laa free labor for all, and those who work in the trade will simply live on food stamps and public housing.


So once again, we're back to your hypocrisy. Government regulation is good as long as it benefits you. It's bad when it benefits someone else in the form of a welfare payment or other so cial ism.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Jlarson said:


> Where do you propose I acquire this magic piece of paper from?


"We're from the government, and we're here to help you."


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> So once again, we're back to your hypocrisy. Government regulation is good as long as it benefits you. It's bad when it benefits someone else in the form of a welfare payment or other so cial ism.


Pete without the licensing system here you would have left the trade long ago because you would never have been able to make such a good living.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> "We're from the government, and we're here to help you."


Wow...that is so cool, and believable.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> I am with you but at this point, as you know, without some controls by SOMEONE, the jacklegs will do their thing because the "cheap" homeowner does not know the difference.


You'll be interested to know that the study addresses this as well. They noted that when restrictive licensing took hold in each state, the numbers of electricians necessarily went down. This CAUSED homeowners to turn to jacklegs because the price of the remaining electricians who obtained the license went up. The data is clear. The incentive to compete on price was removed when restrictive licensing eliminated many of the other players in the market. Many thrifty or poor people either hired "handymen"(the report calls them) or did without the services of an electrician entirely. 

The only benefit (if there is one) to licensing is a barrier to entry and competition elimination to keep electrician wages/prices up. There is no win for the consumer. There is no win for safety.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I can buy a spreadsheet software for 99 cents these days.

most likely it was coded in India


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> "We're from the government, and we're here to help you."


:laughing:

I guess no one pays attention when some newbe comes on here asking "How do I get my journeyman's/master's license in Arizona?" and 220/221 and I say there is no such thing.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Pete without the licensing system here you would have left the trade long ago because you would never have been able to make such a good living.


And you know this how?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I guess no one pays attention when some newbe comes on here asking "How do I get my journeyman's/master's license in Arizona?" and 220/221 and I say there is no such thing.


YOU said that???


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> And you know this how?


41 years in the electrical trade


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

RIVETER said:


> First thing that I would like to bring up is that all of the results cannot be in. You only mentioned ACCIDENTAL electrocutions. Secondly, oh, well...enough said.


This is a result of more reporting not more accurance


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Smart people are going to make a good living, whether or not they have the artificial advantage the government license gives them. Mediocre people need that advantage the government license gives them.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> 41 years in the electrical trade


How do Jlarson and 220/221 make a living on electrical work when there's no license in Arizona?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing:
> 
> I guess no one pays attention when some newbe comes on here asking "How do I get my journeyman's/master's license in Arizona?" and 220/221 and I say there is no such thing.


And to think I was pretty nervous about it that time I wired up a big ranch house with an airplane hanger for my buddy in Payson...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> 41 years in the electrical trade


Is that all you got???


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

FF301 said:


> This is a result of more reporting not more accurance


You know this, how? I'd have an easier time accepting that statement if you could use English properly. You'll be interested to know that result repeated itself across near on a dozes trades and professions as licensing requirements hit each state in the 60's and 70's. The data is remarkable. Crunch it on any 99 cent software program. :laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Smart people are going to make a good living, whether or not they have the artificial advantage the government license gives them. Mediocre people need that advantage the government license gives them.


Do you have an artificial advantage??? Don't forget...I'm your bud.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Do you have an artificial advantage??? Don't forget...I'm your bud.


Yes. I was born with a mind that work in ways few others do.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Yes. I was born with a mind that work in ways few others do.


Then you have heard of Russell Crowe....That's beautiful.:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Yes. I was born with a mind that work in ways few others do.


But you met your match with the marachi band-bandit.......................


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

MTW said:


> How do Jlarson and 220/221 make a living on electrical work when there's no license in Arizona?


I have no idea how you eek out a living in that godforsaken valley of death!

NM wireman are about 5$ ahead on the hourly for both AZ and TX. It's also not right to work?! (Yet) I've seen more "electricians" in AZ in a parking lot under a big orange sign than on the books at the hall! The problem is the qualified guys are to expensive to compete with the romexicans. Your state is an awful place to be a tradesman in my opinion, and I think licensing has something to do with it.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Okay I didn't bother reading everything in this thread but here's my take.

Canada has a program that enables a guy licensed in any province to work in any other province. I think it's good. I think it could be better. I don't love giving money to government agencies. But it is still much better than nothing. I mean, I get it, the whole "no government interference keeping me down" thing, but the libertarian utopia some of you guys dream of is never going to exist anywhere on this earth, ever. It isn't. Nope.

Everyone who passes through the system has to meet a basic standard and learn some basic things about electricity. We get taught about code, theory, motor controls, transformers, lighting, HVAC, fire alarms, instrumentation, electronics, and a lot more. Does every guy retain all this and is it all useful? No, but most retain some of it, and some retain a lot more. In an environment where there was no licensing and no mandatory educational requirement, it's doubtful that most guys would get exposed to all of this.

A lot of it is useful knowledge that can be used on the job. As well, the Red Seal exam is quite tough and many guys fail it the first time. I have seen the successive levels of trade school cull some of the guys who couldn't make it.

I often see this argument trotted out that "licensing doesn't keep dumbasses out of the trade" like it supposedly is intended to. Okay, no argument - it doesn't outright eliminate them, but it does drastically reduce them. It establishes a standardised career path that new guys can follow to become electricians. Sure, sometimes morons can slip through the system, but so what? At least the number of morons can be reduced. 

Would you also want to eliminate all medical licenses just because some doctors are idiots?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

JW Splicer said:


> The problem is the qualified guys are to expensive to compete with the romexicans.


If you're competing with them you are doing it wrong.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> If you're competing with them you are doing it wrong.


Right. That's like Cadillac saying they're too expensive to compete with Kia. Two completely different market segments.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MTW said:


> How do Jlarson and 220/221 make a living on electrical work when there's no license in Arizona?


Self tappers as ground screws duh. :laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> How do Jlarson and 220/221 make a living on electrical work when there's no license in Arizona?


I do not care how they do it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You guys need move forward towards a national standard, Instead you want to move backwards towards anarchy. Makes no sense.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Pete without the licensing system here you would have left the trade long ago because you would never have been able to make such a good living.


Harry, have you ever worked in a state that did not require a license?
I work in NJ which is heavily licensed and PA which has nothing
I see the same hack work on both sides of the River, I also see the same level of success on both sides of the River.
I see one man shops thriving in each and one man shops not able to make it in each.
The last company I worked for had 12-15 guys in it and nobody held a masters but yet we were all making decent money
The reason I would want state license in PA is because it gets annoying registering and paying a tax, oops I meant a license fee in every jurisdiction 
Licensing does nothing to ensure a quality, safe install


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*the march of the defiant fleas again?*

So once again we _fleas _ride that _gleaming _double edged sword of bureaucracy .

It swings _left_ , and we throw licensing, and eventually ahj's, the code , and anything else under relevant the libertopian bus....:no: every job exists in peril

It swings _right_, and we've overbearing authoritarianism , every job under it's heel.:no:

People that think the market is self correcting being every bit as _deluded_ as people who want GubMit control of everything.:whistling2:

GubMit does not control the market, BUT it provides a '_level playing field'_ for it to exist with a level of consumer safety and confidence balanced with it's ability to prosper and grow.

This seems the crux of the issue here...

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> You guys need move forward towards a national standard, Instead you want to move backwards towards anarchy. Makes no sense.


It's like herding cats in a barn fire here 99.....~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I dunno, if I'm a consumer and I'm hiring a tradesman, I want to know he served an apprenticeship and went to school. I expect to pay for that. If someone else wants to hire a guy with a station wagon and a ladder (??), that's his decision.

At least I have a choice.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

If there is no licensing im now a doctor..... 
This is the lamest idea ever sorry. 
Im all for small gubment however some agency has to set and maintain a minimum standard. 
Sometimes you have to pay to play. 
If youre loosing work to unlicensed craigslist guys, market your services elsewhere.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

NacBooster29 said:


> If there is no licensing im now a doctor.....
> This is the lamest idea ever sorry.
> Im all for small gubment however some agency has to set and maintain a minimum standard.
> Sometimes you have to pay to play.
> If youre loosing work to unlicensed craigslist guys, market your services elsewhere.


These guys are always running away from handymen. Now they're saying, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" . That's not how I choose to live.

There will always be hacks and scam artists. They are not your competition. If they ARE your competition then you're chasing the wrong business. Personally, I would rather work half the time for twice the money than a handyman. I have the license to say I'm qualified. He doesn't.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> But you met your match with the marachi band-bandit.......................


Good memory! :thumbsup: :laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Good memory! :thumbsup: :laughing:


Wait, I think I blew it, might of been bluegrass music. Marachi would have been funnier though, which means I can be removed from the list of suspects.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Are we talking electrical license or masters license?

None of the journeymen test I took were difficult or complicated, pretty much a walk in, pay money and receive license.

Here the counties are not enforcing licensing so there is not reason to keep your license active.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

Over the years I have held licenses in 5 states, all obtained by exam and all expensive to get and maintain. Out all of those states, only one (Wyoming) had a test that was in any way challenging or in my opinion meaningful. 

We were taught licenses were a measure of our success and ability, and without them we were not really true electricians. But over the years, I found this to be crap. Some of the best industrial electricians I've ever known were unlicensed, and some of the best house ropers I've ever seen weren't licensed, and in some cases couldn't read or write English. A license is not an accurate measure of your ability as an electrician, it's more a measure of your ability to memorize crap and take tests.

And also, it's how the state gets their pound of flesh. Well, another pound. Here in Maine for 50.00 and a back round check fee the state will issue an Electricians Helpers license. No exam, just send a check. What is the point of that? It means NOTHING. Just another revenue stream for the government. 
You can buy licenses is many states, in NM for example I paid 350.00 to a company that guaranteed I would pass the contractors exam, or their course was free. All they did was send people in to take the test, record the questions, and then used this as a guide to make practice tests that you took for the 3 days proceeding your actual test date. Any moron who can forge work experience documentation can get a license like that. When I moved from NM to Maine, even though I had over 20 years documented experience, and had held licenses in 4 other states, to be able to sit for the masters test I was require to take a 576 hour electrical study course that covered gems like tool identification and learning the names of electrical material. Cost...$2,300, value - $0.

And this state doesn't enforce the regulations anyway, so why bother? Unlicensed or improperly licensed individuals run around wiring whatever they want with no repercussions at all, so why should I bother to maintain my masters license? 

I'm all for maintaining a high level of quality and holding people accountable for the work they do, but the licensing systems in the states I've worked in are by and large broken, ineffectual and/or corrupt. It's all about the money. 

A national license makes more sense to me, but the chances of that happening, or my confidence in the federal government's ability to administrate it competently is 0.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Anyone care to guess how much Solar Panel installers were paid per hour before the board of electricians ruled that solar work is electrical work and licensed electricians with the normal ratio must do the work?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Anyone care to guess how much Solar Panel installers were paid per hour before the board of electricians ruled that solar work is electrical work and licensed electricians with the normal ratio must do the work?


Bout 16.00$?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> Bout 16.00$?


exactly....


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Same thing in NM


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mountain Electrician said:


> A license is not an accurate measure of your ability as an electrician, it's more a measure of your ability to memorize crap and take tests.
> .


I had my azz handed to me more than once in ems by an elder corpsman of Korean vintage.

I took the test and aced it, he barely passed.

In hindsight, book smart vs. experience will forever and a day be the paradox

That said , what would one like live/death decisions based on....?

~CS~


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

It seems clear to me that if you don't require a license, the pool of people doing the work will increase dramatically which will cause the wages to decrease. I believe they should increase enforcement of license requirements, not remove it.

Also, I believe there should be a hands on test should be required along with periodical retesting requirements.


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## joes (Jan 8, 2008)

*Licensing*

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { } *I remember when I got my journeyman’s license in Conn, 1971 it was a real ordeal. You had to log 10,000 hours under a master before you could even take the test. 
Now here in Pa. there is no state licensing and anything goes.
I see more dangerous stuff that I can't believe. Hell anyone that can strap on tools can not only pose as an electrician but even as a contractor.
It's shameful what goes on in this state without licensing.*​


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Mountain Electrician said:


> You can buy licenses is many states, in NM for example I paid 350.00 to a company that guaranteed I would pass the contractors exam, or their course was free. All they did was send people in to take the test, record the questions, and then used this as a guide to make practice tests that you took for the 3 days proceeding your actual test date. Any moron who can forge work experience documentation can get a license like that.


:laughing:
Were you here for the big expose on that? Some dude was pissed that he didn't get a perfect score and turned whistleblower to some investigative reporter.:laughing:

They fired test contractor and brought in PSI.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

16 is generous for PV panel monkeys.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Jlarson said:


> 16 is generous for PV panel monkeys.


Its electrical work none the less, and we should treat it as such and have it installed and maintained by qualified journeyman. I've been safety watch for guys core drilling into slabs for 8 hours just because I was a journeyman electrician. The customer wanted to make sure that when the core came up there were no conduits in it, even though they had the area x-rayed and located. It was so easy anyone could do it, but it's our work and we should protect that work. The minute they hit a conduit and don't tell anyone and you reenergize the building and shtf, they are gonna be asking why a qualified person didn't verify safe conditions.


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## Sprink (Apr 21, 2012)

3xdad said:


> :laughing:
> Were you here for the big expose on that? Some dude was pissed that he didn't get a perfect score and turned whistleblower to some investigative reporter.:laughing:
> 
> They fired test contractor and brought in PSI.


Since you asked –meet Jody Barr
http://www.fox19.com/clip/11650756/...ads-accused-of-faking-training-records-part-1

Part two covers why.
http://www.fox19.com/clip/11650894/...ads-accused-of-faking-training-records-part-2

Part three- finding more rats.
http://www.fox19.com/clip/11674185/switzerland-county-part-3

Part four- Commissioner meeting and Homeland Security.
http://www.fox19.com/clip/11674246/switzerland-county-4


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> Its electrical work none the less, and we should treat it as such and have it installed and maintained by qualified journeyman. I've been safety watch for guys core drilling into slabs for 8 hours just because I was a journeyman electrician. The customer wanted to make sure that when the core came up there were no conduits in it, even though they had the area x-rayed and located. It was so easy anyone could do it, but it's our work and we should protect that work. The minute they hit a conduit and don't tell anyone and you reenergize the building and shtf, they are gonna be asking why a qualified person didn't verify safe conditions.


So we should protect it by law and not by merit? I see so much hack work done by licensed guys and inspected that it makes me wonder why i bothered getting licensed to begin with. My grandfather was a damn good electrician with a thriving business for 25 years before NH adopted licensing. His quality of work didnt change one bit. His reputation was built on providing quality work, not on a piece of paper saying he could use a code book and a calculator. Hell, the California general electrician exam i took didnt even have calculations on it, and was just multiple choice code questions! Thats some rigorous testing for sure. I took it on 4 hours of sleep nursing a hangover and still smoked the thing in 30 minutes. Thanks MrBig Gov't!


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Oh yeah, and gov't licensing and apprenticeships have also been a boon to the unions that defend them huh? I went through an apprenticeship, and am a journeyman, and yet, was never in a union. The union had a lot more clout and importance back before licensing, not after.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Licensure is your '_union_' GC
:whistling2:
~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> I do not care how they do it.


Of course not, because Jlarson, 220 and many others destroy your theory that electricians in states that have no licensing only make $8 an hour or whatever garbage you spew. If anything, they prove the exact opposite, that trade licensing or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on an electrician's earning potential. As usual, you painted yourself into a corner and when confronted with truth, you have nothing to say.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Anyone care to guess how much Solar Panel installers were paid per hour before the board of electricians ruled that solar work is electrical work and licensed electricians with the normal ratio must do the work?


Who cares what they made, putting together solar panels is low skilled work not worthy of electrician's pay. The licensing board you speak of is in union dominated Massachusetts so of course they are going to do whatever they can to limit the free market and make sure union contractors get most of the work.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joes said:


> p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { } *I remember when I got my journeyman’s license in Conn, 1971 it was a real ordeal. You had to log 10,000 hours under a master before you could even take the test.
> Now here in Pa. there is no state licensing and anything goes.
> I see more dangerous stuff that I can't believe. Hell anyone that can strap on tools can not only pose as an electrician but even as a contractor.
> It's shameful what goes on in this state without licensing.*​



And your point is? I see hack work done by handymen and electrical contractors alike, and we have licensing, apprenticeships and enforcement.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Who cares what they made, putting together solar panels is low skilled work not worthy of electrician's pay. The licensing board you speak of is in union dominated Massachusetts so of course they are going to do whatever they can to limit the free market and make sure union contractors get most of the work.


So you are in favor of having a low class of workers who do not make enough to support themselves and must sign up for welfare benefits, so that huge multi-international solar company's can make a killing and we pay the salary's of the multi-international solar company's solar workers-------Brilliant Pete....


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

joes said:


> p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }a:link { } *I remember when I got my journeyman’s license in Conn, 1971 it was a real ordeal. You had to log 10,000 hours under a master before you could even take the test.
> Now here in Pa. there is no state licensing and anything goes.
> I see more dangerous stuff that I can't believe. Hell anyone that can strap on tools can not only pose as an electrician but even as a contractor.
> It's shameful what goes on in this state without licensing.*​


Welcome aboard Joe....:thumbsup:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> So you are in favor of having a low class of workers who do not make enough to support themselves and must sign up for welfare benefits, so that huge multi-international solar company's can make a killing and we pay the salary's of the multi-international solar company's solar workers-------Brilliant Pete....


Can you just admit that you're a hypocrite? It would make this a whole lot easier. You want the government to protect you, and without that protection (license), you're unable to make a living.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Can you just admit that you're a hypocrite? It would make this a whole lot easier. You want the government to protect you, and without that protection (license), you're unable to make a living.


:lol::lol: Gotcha!!!!! You can't answer because you know I have you boxed in:laughing:
:thumbup1:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> So we should protect it by law and not by merit? I see so much hack work done by licensed guys and inspected that it makes me wonder why i bothered getting licensed to begin with. My grandfather was a damn good electrician with a thriving business for 25 years before NH adopted licensing. His quality of work didnt change one bit. His reputation was built on providing quality work, not on a piece of paper saying he could use a code book and a calculator. Hell, the California general electrician exam i took didnt even have calculations on it, and was just multiple choice code questions! Thats some rigorous testing for sure. I took it on 4 hours of sleep nursing a hangover and still smoked the thing in 30 minutes. Thanks MrBig Gov't!


Great. Let me write your job op for you:

_Wanted: Starter electrician. Lousy pay but at least you're not flipping burgers. In twenty five years you can make some bucks after you build a reputation for yourself, just like Grandpa Sparky did. Apply with references. _


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> So we should protect it by law and not by merit? I see so much hack work done by licensed guys and inspected that it makes me wonder why i bothered getting licensed to begin with. My grandfather was a damn good electrician with a thriving business for 25 years before NH adopted licensing. His quality of work didnt change one bit. His reputation was built on providing quality work, not on a piece of paper saying he could use a code book and a calculator. Hell, the California general electrician exam i took didnt even have calculations on it, and was just multiple choice code questions! Thats some rigorous testing for sure. I took it on 4 hours of sleep nursing a hangover and still smoked the thing in 30 minutes. Thanks MrBig Gov't!


GC I'm not saying that licensing makes the electrican, but it at least gives us a base. There's gonna be hack work and morons everywhere no matter what, but the least we can do as professionals is provide some sort of certification for our craft to show both our industry and our customers that we are at least minimally qualified to do our jobs. What if everyone just said they were an engineer and never got the PE stamp? They would be laughed out of every sector in their industry! Same thing with a doctor! 

Interview would go something like this...
What makes you qualified to be a MD Bob?
Well I at least have all the parts myself that I'll be workin on!
That's great, you have a human body, you probably know when something's wrong with it, welcome aboard DR Bob!


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

We need to realize that a license is THE BARE MINIMUM to determine your competency. There will be hacks that slip through the cracks, but at least it's not EVERY moron out there!!!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> :lol::lol: Gotcha!!!!! You can't answer because you know I have you boxed in:laughing:
> :thumbup1:


How am I boxed in? I've stated explicitly what I believe. Solar installers are just that - installers. The only reason Mass. ruled in favor of electricians is because of the union domination and stopping competition.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> How am I boxed in? I've stated explicitly what I believe. Solar installers are just that - installers. The only reason Mass. ruled in favor of electricians is because of the union domination and stopping competition.


Not so. It has a lot to do with the ability of the electricians/installers to have BONDING ability in order for people to trust them on their property.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> How am I boxed in? I've stated explicitly what I believe. Solar installers are just that - installers. The only reason Mass. ruled in favor of electricians is because of the union domination and stopping competition.


Just what I said, here is the quote.... 


Black Dog said:


> So you are in favor of having a low class of workers who do not make enough to support themselves and must sign up for welfare benefits, so that huge multi-international solar company's can make a killing and we pay the salary's of the multi-international solar company's solar workers-------Brilliant Pete....


Go ahead answer......


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

The title of this thread should have been.....

'So-----I failed the Master's exam again'......:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

I stopped renewing my City license years ago. There is no State License in NY, and I have no interest in working inside of the city line, most of it being nasty resi jobs where you need to watch out you're not bringing home Kochroach eggs on the bottoms of your boots. That, and I know of quite a few guys who hold "Master's" licenses that I wouldn't trust to wire up a door bell correctly. None of the 'burbs where I do work require one for pulling a permit and the work I do is all word of mouth referrals, I tell my customers straight-up if they are looking for lowest price, I'm not their guy but I can give them the number for the local Fire Department when they find "that guy". My rep and my liability ins. coverage is all I need. Any idiot can get a license here, nice cash-grab for the City, that's about it.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Sure you can get good by working your life at Grandpa's Electric but that doesn't make you an electrician, that makes you a good worker at Grandpa's Electric. At least a proper apprenticeship, including nine months of school, exposes us to the big picture and most aspects of our trade. Guys who don't go to school might know the HOW but they don't know the WHY.

I haven't done it all, none of us have, but there isn't much I can't figure out. That's one of the big reasons for going to school. You don't go to school simply to pass an exam, you go to school to LEARN.

You guys all seem to know a Master who does chitty work. Big deal. One example proves nothing.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

My Apprenticeship was *four years of classroom* (not 9 months), 12 months a year, (no Summers off, but all on the clock) as well as the OTJ hours. My first 10 years in the Trade was nothing but heavy Industrial Manufacturing including oil & coal power houses, hazardous location chemical production, high speed automated assembly lines, WWTP, roll-coating, paper mill, railroad, and even an on-site foundry with an electric arc blast furnace. The site was 1300 acres and the fence-line 22 miles._ I learned a lot of stuff. I learned the "big picture", that was the product._ They* invented* digital photography there, but sold-off the rights because they didn't see a future for it (hoo-boy, SMH :wallbash. A "license" in this town is just a piece of paper, I prefer Charmin, it's softer.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I said nine months of school, not a nine month apprenticeship. If you spent four years in class, you must have the equivalent of a degree not an electrician's license.

Here we have two months of class time in each of years one, two and three and three months in year four, although on-line training is kind of changing that.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I cannot possibly for the life of me imagine what a country without licensing for orthodontists would be like, can any of you?


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

99cents said:


> I said nine months of school, not a nine month apprenticeship. If you spent four years in class, you must have the equivalent of a degree not an electrician's license.
> 
> Here we have two months of class time in each of years one, two and three and three months in year four, although on-line training is kind of changing that.


Nope, just an IBEW yellow ticket (they picked me up as a JW after I left the "Big Yellow Box") and papers from the former Eastman Kodak Company, RIP. They weren't Union, our pay and bennies were *higher* than the IBEW back then. Class was 2 days a week, 4 hours a day, 12 months a year. And the ability to do a lot of stuff that isn't done much in North America anymore. Got and held a license for a lot of years when I left there (Kodak). I did get a Business Degree before I got into Trade School though. Still don't know why.........


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I cannot possibly for the life of me imagine what a country without licensing for orthodontists would be like, can any of you?


A lot of crooked teeth?
Actually, the Orthodontist my Parents first took me to at age 12 messed my teeth up badly, the second one needed 4 years to correct 2 years worth of bad work. Yeah, 6 years in braces. I hated every minute of it, too.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Electricians have been conditioned to accept government interference in every aspect of their lives.



FIFY :whistling2:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> I used to be in favor of licensing for electricians in years past, but my thinking has come completely around on this subject. I now believe a government issued trade license is not even worth the paper it's written on and is a waste of time and resources. I think trade licensing should be abolished. Let's discuss.



Considering everything I have seen thus far its not difficult for me to hold the same views.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> Figure out a test that you would think any reasonable, knowledgeable electrician should be able to pass and give it to us. Most will fail. Accountability is what it's about. I have been to the yearly code "upgrade" classes and the idiots just try to sign in and then sneak out. Someone has to be in control.



The only reasonable tests are those rooted in electrical theory. There are electricians who can pass tests based on obfuscated NEC excerpts with flying colors but know next to nothing about electrical theory.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

why is taking a test a big deal anyway
The teachers for the Phila and NJ test have the test answers so you pay them for the test answers and you review the test for a couple of weeks before you take it


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I cannot possibly for the life of me imagine what a country without licensing for orthodontists would be like, can any of you?


All bark, no bite.....? :laughing:~CS~:jester:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Ok, 

seems most of us in either camp agree the GubMit could eff up a BJ.....:laughing:

so can we agree on some metric? 

what if a trade org were to dole out certs? 

maybe the IAEI here would have something better to do than get liquored up , give each other high 5's ....:whistling2:

or perhaps the local dojo can give us colored belts?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> The only reasonable tests are those rooted in electrical theory. There are electricians who can pass tests based on obfuscated NEC excerpts with flying colors but know next to nothing about electrical theory.


Very true, although i could make a strong argument both don't exactly exist in perfect harmony.:whistling2:

Speaking of which, the musical world is very much analogous , being those that possess solid _theory_ can easily step up to the plate , vs those of simply mechanical ability....

Not that i'm quite there yet, but the gay shirt makes up for a lot.....:laughing:

~C(can't quite quit the day job)S~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Very true, although i could make a strong argument both don't exactly exist in perfect harmony.:whistling2:
> 
> Speaking of which, the musical world is very much analogous , being those that possess solid _theory_ can easily step up to the plate , vs those of simply mechanical ability....
> 
> ...


Im with you on that. But in any case theory should be taught to everyone, even pipe runners, something I see lacking in our trade.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

electricalwiz said:


> why is taking a test a big deal anyway



It's a big deal for some because they can't survive without having a government permission slip to protect them. If they could stand on their own two feet and sell themselves based on their abilities and references, they wouldn't need a license.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Ok,
> 
> 
> what if a trade org were to dole out certs?


I'm fine with that. In fact, I think it's the way it should be. This encourages competition among the union and non-union sectors. The IBEW advertises on local radio here, specifically pointing out that their apprenticeship requirement is a full one year longer than the state required one. Government intrusion only stifles competition and the free market.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> It's a big deal for some because they can't survive without having a government permission slip to protect them. If they could stand on their own two feet and sell themselves based on their abilities and references, they wouldn't need a license.



Having a license does not guarantee survival in the electrical trade, you still have to pull your own weight, so you lose the argument right there.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

It only stifles the competition if you're competing with unlicensed labor. 
If everyone follows the same rules than licensing weeds out handymen. A true license would be more than a fee. But an accreddited apprenticeship with ojt. Followed by an exam. 
If you choose to compete with bottom feeders. Well thats a tough fight to win.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> It's a big deal for some because they can't survive without having a government permission slip to protect them. If they could stand on their own two feet and sell themselves based on their abilities and references, they wouldn't need a license.


Sorry, I don't consider selling myself as a handyman "standing on my own two feet".


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

In Canada, we fight fragmentation of our trade. Down there, you nurture it. I'm sure I speak for all Canadians when I say we are just dumbfounded by this conversation.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Some people will lose a dollar to save a dime 99. They don't want to pay the 70$ Fee of renewing your license every three years. You save 70$ but stagnate wages and flood the labor pool for years. Great idea. What we do isn't rocket surgery anyway, I get that. Now AZ journeyman wireman is paid about 25$ an hour, WA is at 44$ why? Are they better at selling themselves? More knowledgable? Is cost of living really double that of AZ here? No. The reason is AZ has a flooded market because they don't restrict who can do electrical work with a bare minimum test.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When TPP , TISA, et al are passed, it will be illegal for states and townships to require licensing of tradeworkers if foreign countries allow work to be performed without a license. And those foreign countries will be able to sue the states and cities who do not accept their foreign workers to operate without a license. Welcome to the new world order, it only gets better and better.


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## ZombieFish (Jun 19, 2015)

Well here is another question for you guys, and this is more of just me not really knowing.
but if you are not an apprentice and have around 19 years of experience but never bother to get the licencing. can you still work under someone else's licence?
can you still hire someone to work for you with out them having a licence?
because I am not sure how true this is but I had heard that now you were required to ether have a licence or at the very least an ET card to be on the job site.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> In Canada, we fight fragmentation of our trade. Down there, you nurture it. I'm sure I speak for all Canadians when I say we are just dumbfounded by this conversation.



Because in the US the education system is very different. Gifted, talented individuals are flushed down the toilet while the rest are taught to blindly follow orders with limited electrical theory. 

The system is backwards and as a result many passionate individuals who can truly better our trade are left to fend for themselves. Those having a license believe they hold the key to all knowledge automatically condemning anyone without one. Micromind knows what I am talking about. 

I just watched a video over on Mike Holt about a guy who found a way to mitigate 90 to 95% of all electrical fires while AFCI manufacturers try to eradicate his idea because it threatens their profits. 

We still have a long way to go, thats for sure.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> An apprenticeship means nothing. An apprentice might do nothing but run conduit and pull wire, or rope houses, or in NYC might carry material up high rise buildings all day long.


No, an apprenticeship does not mean nothing. Oh, I'm sure in the non-union sector it sure as heck would mean nothing quite often. But even there, if an apprentice (I refer to them as helpers) who don't pickup the trade and are delegated to nothing more than humping material or roping houses for years would probably leave the trade, realizing they're not cut out for it. The rest make it their business to excel.

And typically the apprentices do move the material on hi-rises, but they're smart enough to use the freight elevators. Bulk deliveries are usually picked by the crane anyway. A day spent entirely on humping materials would be rare.



> There are plenty of electricians with high aptitude, are fast learners and who are excellent at their job without a piece of paper in hand and have never done an apprenticeship.


And for every one of them I'll bet there's about 10 who can't and won't ever cut it.



> Conversely there are plenty of licensed electricians who could do a 20 year apprenticeship and still nothing more than installers.


Some people just aren't good at testing.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm not saying there aren't smart guys without licenses. There are plenty of you here. Effin geniuses some you! I'm just pro nation wide licensing for a bare minimum requirement to be considered a journeyman electrician.

"what about all the smart guys that aren't gonna pass?" 

Really? Most of you guys can pass a Masters test in drunk stupor. We should be banding together and uplifting the bare minimums of our craft. We don't need installers, we need more people that take the entire craft more seriously. Licensing isn't going to make that happen, but it may make the general public more aware of what our trade actually entails. Maybe they'll think a little bit more the next time they get some fly by night outfit to do their work...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> > Most of you guys can pass a Masters test in drunk stupor.
> 
> 
> I'm in! :laughing:
> ...


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

99cents said:


> In Canada, we fight fragmentation of our trade. Down there, you nurture it. I'm sure I speak for all Canadians when I say we are just dumbfounded by this conversation.



The concept of collectivism isn't as popular as it used to be here 99

most unfortunate too....


~CS~


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

For information's sake, here is a list of the Red Seal trades in Canada:

Agricultural Equipment Technician
Appliance Service Technician
Auto Body Technician
Auto Body Technician - Auto Body Refinisher
Automotive Service Technician
Baker
Boilermaker
Bricklayer
Cabinetmaker
Carpenter
Concrete Finisher
Cook
Crane and Hoisting Equipment Operator - Hydraulic Mobile Crane
Crane and Hoisting Equipment Operator - Mobile Crane
Electric Motor Systems Technician
Electrician
Floorcovering Installer
Gasfitter (A)
Gasfitter (B)
Glazier
Hairstylist
Heavy Equipment Technician - Heavy Duty Equipment Mechanic (Off Road)
Heavy Equipment Technician - Truck and Transport Mechanic
Instrument Technician
Insulator
Ironworker
Ironworker - Reinforcing
Ironworker - Structural/Ornamental
Landscape Gardener
Lather - Interior Systems Mechanic
Machinist
Millwright
Motorcycle Mechanic
Painter and Decorator
Parts Technician - Parts Technician
Plumber
Powerline Technician
Recreation Vehicle Service Technician
Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Mechanic
Rig Technician 3
Roofer
Sheet Metal Worker
Sprinkler Systems Installer
Steamfitter-Pipefitter
Structural Steel and Plate Fitter
Tilesetter
Welder

I don't see "handyman" on that list.


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## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

meadow said:


> Because in the US the education system is very different. Gifted, talented individuals are flushed down the toilet while the rest are taught to blindly follow orders with limited electrical theory.
> 
> The system is backwards and as a result many passionate individuals who can truly better our trade are left to fend for themselves. Those having a license believe they hold the key to all knowledge automatically condemning anyone without one. *Micromind knows what I am talking about. *
> 
> ...


Micromind is a great example of someone who has excelled without a license. Not many people out there like him though.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

An electrical license does not make someone an electrical theorist, or genius. It simply gives them the right to work in the trade legally where said license is issued. 
I would equate it to a drivers license. Not every licensed driver will be driving in a nascar race. Nor should they be.


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm all for doing away with licenses, insurance, liability, code, and inspections. Lets just have a free-for-all. Last house standing wins.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

meadow said:


> Because in the US the education system is very different. Gifted, talented individuals are flushed down the toilet while the rest are taught to blindly follow orders with limited electrical theory.
> 
> The system is backwards and as a result many passionate individuals who can truly better our trade are left to fend for themselves. Those having a license believe they hold the key to all knowledge automatically condemning anyone without one. Micromind knows what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


I'd hire micro before any licensed yahoo.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> You guys need move forward towards a national standard, Instead you want to move backwards towards anarchy. Makes no sense.


No, we don't need another inefficient, corrupt federal agency to regulate something they have no business regulating.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> In Canada, we fight fragmentation of our trade. Down there, you nurture it. I'm sure I speak for all Canadians when I say we are just dumbfounded by this conversation.


That's because you're used to being in a nanny state where practically everything is regulated by the central government. We have a much higher view of personal liberty and freedom that you do up north, though I'm sure there are plenty of Canadians who dislike the level of regulation that you have.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> That's because you're used to being in a nanny state where practically everything is regulated by the central government. We have a much higher view of personal liberty and freedom that you do up north, though I'm sure there are plenty of Canadians who dislike the level of regulation that you have.


You have a National Electrical Code but no national standard for those who apply it. Makes no sense.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> That's because you're used to being in a nanny state where practically everything is regulated by the central government. We have a much higher view of personal liberty and freedom that you do up north, though I'm sure there are plenty of Canadians who dislike the level of regulation that you have.


Trades governance is provincial jurisdiction in this country.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> You have a National Electrical Code but no national standard for those who apply it. Makes no sense.


The NEC is produced by a private organization, so the name itself is a misnomer. Adoption of the NEC is always at the state and local level. Similarly, licensing laws are also at the state and local level. 



99cents said:


> Trades governance is provincial jurisdiction in this country.


So how is that any different than how things operate here? :001_huh:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> The NEC is produced by a private organization, so the name itself is a misnomer. Adoption of the NEC is always at the state and local level. Similarly, licensing laws are also at the state and local level.
> 
> 
> 
> So how is that any different than how things operate here? :001_huh:


We operate the same way here. CSA writes the code and the provinces adopt it and amend it as they see fit.

Here is the huge advantage to a nationally recognized trade and apprenticeship program: It allows mobility across the country. Alberta went through an oil boom recently. It allowed migration of apprentices and journeymen into the province, no questions asked. I don't know the statistics but it wouldn't surprise me if more than half the tradesmen working in the province at one time came from other parts of Canada. 

Of course, you could argue that not having licensing and apprenticeship programs provides the best mobility. That's great if you believe in fifteen dollar an hour labourers doing electrical work.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

MTW said:


> That's because you're used to being in a nanny state where practically everything is regulated by the central government. We have a much higher view of personal liberty and freedom that you do up north, though I'm sure there are plenty of Canadians who dislike the level of regulation that you have.


Liberty? Like the kind afforded to you by the NSA, TSA, and the Patriot Act? Yeah I definitely wish I had that. 

Just remember that living by the license free sword also means dying by the license free sword. Ask Australians.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-29/government-not-to-assess-chines***************-skills/6579290


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

triden said:


> Micromind is a great example of someone who has excelled without a license. Not many people out there like him though.


Perfect example imo. Most like him give up or are disposed of without the world ever seeing their potential in action. Our trade is starving of talent and its because our education system is broken at its core. Testing and licensing is an extension of that flaw. There is nothing wrong testing and licensing in by itself, but the way its carried out leaves a lot of room for improvement. 


I think we could go far considering this:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Maybe we should just stick with _'pro of the quarter'_ them , the vetting should produce a fine trade by 2215 or so.....:whistling2:~CS~


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

99cents said:


> Great. Let me write your job op for you:
> 
> _Wanted: Starter electrician. Lousy pay but at least you're not flipping burgers. In twenty five years you can make some bucks after you build a reputation for yourself, just like Grandpa Sparky did. Apply with references. _


Obviously he made no money and picked food out of dumpsters for the 25 years before licensing. He made damn good money, started out working for someone else making damn good money for the time. There were other established electrical contractors at the time as well. The slumlords and whatnot hired no-talent cheap hacks, just like they do now. A piece of paper doesn't make a good electrician, wanting to be a good electrician does. 

Maybe Canada will pass a law that a government employee will follow around every family to wipe their asses for them after they use the bathroom. Obviously that is too difficult a task for mere citizens to figure out for themselves. You have become accustom to living in a nanny state, and can't see past your government's bosom.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> GC I'm not saying that licensing makes the electrican, but it at least gives us a base. There's gonna be hack work and morons everywhere no matter what, but the least we can do as professionals is provide some sort of certification for our craft to show both our industry and our customers that we are at least minimally qualified to do our jobs. What if everyone just said they were an engineer and never got the PE stamp? They would be laughed out of every sector in their industry! Same thing with a doctor!
> 
> Interview would go something like this...
> What makes you qualified to be a MD Bob?
> ...


There is no comparison between our trade and the practice of medicine, so there is no point in even going there. We are skilled labor, which means we have to use our noggins a bit more than a dude pushing a wheelbarrow, but it ain't like we are running calculations to get to the moon. Call it devaluing our trade if you want, but the brunt of this trade is hitting stuff with hammers, turning screws, pulling stuff, and turning more screws. Ain't exactly rocket science.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> It only stifles the competition if you're competing with unlicensed labor.
> If everyone follows the same rules than licensing weeds out handymen. A true license would be more than a fee. But an accreddited apprenticeship with ojt. Followed by an exam.
> If you choose to compete with bottom feeders. Well thats a tough fight to win.


That has been working soooo well too. Those electrical boards have weeded out every dude doing unlicensed electrical work, and now only safe, quality work is done by trained, licensed electricians. 


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Get real dude. The state just wants their money. The state inspectors are never funded well enough to do anything, and wouldn't even if they did. They prefer hopping job site to job site to check licenses to make sure people remember to renew them, and the unlicensed guys run and hide. Handymen or whatever you want to call them, are doing tons of electrical work all over the country without a license, and the state boards don't give a damn about it other than for lost license revenue.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Going Commando, we don't have an annual license fee in Canada, at least not in my province, so that kinda throws your "cash grab" theory out the window. I do pay an annual fee for my Master's license in one province, somewhere around $120.00, which is a minor cost of doing business. My Master's license in another province has no expiry date.

I believe at one time we had a grandfather clause for old timers to be licensed but that was a long time ago. I doubt if you're going to see too many people complain about our apprenticeship and licensing programs nowadays. It's how we roll up here. Nobody equates it to a nanny state. It's simply a standard of professional competency. I don't know how you can evaluate the competency of a graduate of Grandpa Sparky's School of Electricity.

Let's say you have a bigger job with 200 electricians and apprentices. How do you evaluate each person and his ability to do the job without some sort of standard? The way it is now, we hire a first year/second year/third year/fourth year or journeyman and the payscale is predetermined. Quick, easy and efficient.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

99cents said:


> Going Commando, we don't have an annual license fee in Canada, at least not in my province, so that kinda throws your "cash grab" theory out the window. I do pay an annual fee for my Master's license in one province, somewhere around $120.00, which is a minor cost of doing business. My Master's license in another province has no expiry date.
> 
> I believe at one time we had a grandfather clause for old timers to be licensed but that was a long time ago. I doubt if you're going to see too many people complain about our apprenticeship and licensing programs nowadays. It's how we roll up here. Nobody equates it to a nanny state. It's simply a standard of professional competency. I don't know how you can evaluate the competency of a graduate of Grandpa Sparky's School of Electricity.
> 
> Let's say you have a bigger job with 200 electricians and apprentices. How do you evaluate each person and his ability to do the job without some sort of standard? The way it is now, we hire a first year/second year/third year/fourth year or journeyman and the payscale is predetermined. Quick, easy and efficient.


So you are telling me every apprentice and journeyman has the same skill levels and competencies when hired on a big job? Puh-lease. Just because you do your school work doesn't mean you give a damn when it comes to doing the actual work and not being lazy. I'm glad Grandpa Canada is taking care of you so well, though. Thankfully, I don't live there.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Maybe Canada will pass a law that a government employee will follow around every family to wipe their asses for them after they use the bathroom. Obviously that is too difficult a task for mere citizens to figure out for themselves. You have become accustom to living in a nanny state said:


> We're trying to have a reasonable conversation here...


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> So you are telling me every apprentice and journeyman has the same skill levels and competencies when hired on a big job? Puh-lease. Just because you do your school work doesn't mean you give a damn when it comes to doing the actual work and not being lazy. I'm glad Grandpa Canada is taking care of you so well, though. Thankfully, I don't live there.


I'm thankful you don't live here as well.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> So you are telling me every apprentice and journeyman has the same skill levels and competencies when hired on a big job? Puh-lease. Just because you do your school work doesn't mean you give a damn when it comes to doing the actual work and not being lazy. I'm glad Grandpa Canada is taking care of you so well, though. Thankfully, I don't live there.


No, but they've all completed a bare minimum amount of school, OJT, and licensing.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

99cents said:


> You guys need move forward towards a national standard, Instead you want to move backwards towards anarchy. Makes no sense.


Why stop there. How about a global standard. Are you a World Federalist?


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Maximumbob said:


> Why stop there. How about a global standard. Are you a World Federalist?


That's a bit nonsensical given that not every country has similar power grid setups.

Why is national licensing such a horrid thing? In the house I am currently renting in the handyman wiring I have seen makes me feel terrified, who knows what is going on behind the walls.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> That's a bit nonsensical given that not every country has similar power grid setups.
> 
> Why is national licensing such a horrid thing? In the house I am currently renting in the handyman wiring I have seen makes me feel terrified, who knows what is going on behind the walls.


Just a little glowing behind those walls----------nothing to worry about...:laughing:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> Just a little glowing behind those walls----------nothing to worry about...:laughing:


In the basement, which the landlord is renovating to add more occupants eventually, I saw an outlet that had romex going from the outlet to halfway up the wall, then a single red wire gauge 12 or so taped to one of the 3 wires going to the outlet. The hippies doing the remodel down there were trying to plug into it. :001_huh:

They also placed a small water heater (4' tall) with 1/2" water lines going out of it in a place where it cannot be drained or removed without damaging the cabinet they put in front of it. Oh and it has no filter on the water coming into it. That water heater is supposed to provide enough hot water for showers on both levels as well as a clothes washer. :laughing:

Also the breaker box in this house has a 150A main breaker, but the wires coming into the house look like 6 gauge at best, assuming they have that old thick insulation on them which is cracking.

There are three prong receptacles but no grounds in this house. :whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

So to recap, a license requirement:

1) Is no guarantee quality of work and may even contribute to a decline in quality
2) Is no guarantee of qualifications of an electrician
3) Is an impediment to free trade
4) Guarantees that an underground economy in trade work will flourish 
5) Is a hidden tax to consumers
6) Is nothing more than a revenue source for the state in many instances
7) Often has little or no enforcement of requirements to said license 
8) Is a barrier to electricians from other jurisdictions not holding the proper license


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> So to recap, a license requirement:
> 
> 1) Is no guarantee quality of work and may even contribute to a decline in quality  And I have no proof to back that up!
> 
> ...


Again, you are simply crying because you failed one of your exams in one of these 6 states......don't kid yourself....


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

* Board of Electricians Celebrates 100 Years  *


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> Harry, have you ever worked in a state that did not require a license?
> I work in NJ which is heavily licensed and PA which has nothing
> I see the same hack work on both sides of the River, I also see the same level of success on both sides of the River.
> I see one man shops thriving in each and one man shops not able to make it in each.
> ...


You said there was no license in PA and then say there's a license fee in every jurisdiction? So there are licenses in PA. Same for AZ, I looked and see all kinds of licensing.

In MN, carpenters have no skill type license and get $35 to $50/Hr. Electricians have a skill license and get $75 to $100/hr. I think I'll keep my license.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> That's a bit nonsensical given that not every country has similar power grid setups.
> 
> Why is national licensing such a horrid thing? In the house I am currently renting in the handyman wiring I have seen makes me feel terrified, who knows what is going on behind the walls.


I was exaggerating to make a point. My opinion is the whole license/permit/inspection process has or always has been kind of a joke.

Let's face it, the inspector is there for 5 min or less for the rough and final and if anything is found to be defective later they can't be held accountable because they have sovereign immunity. 

Couldn't a national standard be set by the existing private organization and inspections handled through a private insurance company? Then you could work anywhere.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Maximumbob said:


> I was exaggerating to make a point. My opinion is the whole license/permit/inspection process has or always has been kind of a joke.
> 
> Let's face it, the inspector is there for 5 min or less for the rough and final and if anything is found to be defective later they can't be held accountable because they have sovereign immunity.
> 
> Couldn't a national standard be set by the existing private organization and inspections handled through a private insurance company? Then you could work anywhere.


Then what needs to be changed is inspectors not being held accountable. I don't believe private standards is a good thing, but a single national license with a hands on portion of the exam along with renewal testing, on top of more rigid inspections, sounds like a better option to me.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Again, you are simply crying because you failed one of your exams in one of these 6 states......don't kid yourself....


How much would like to bet?


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

backstay said:


> You said there was no license in PA and then say there's a license fee in every jurisdiction? So there are licenses in PA. Same for AZ, I looked and see all kinds of licensing.
> 
> In MN, carpenters have no skill type license and get $35 to $50/Hr. Electricians have a skill license and get $75 to $100/hr. I think I'll keep my license.


PA does NOT have a statewide license
What they do have is Home Improvement Contractor Registration, which you need insurance and $50 to get
The major cites like Philadelphia do have a license and it is disaster
Most of the surrounding townships have a registration which cost anywhere from $75 - $125 per township

You would have to post a link to the PA license that you are talking about because nothing exist


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not. You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, references and experience first. Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> * Board of Electricians Celebrates 100 Years  *
> 
> 
> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::laughing:


Normally you complain about government agencies but since this one protects you, you have nothing to say.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not. You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, references and experience first. Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.


What a bullchit post this is, now you're really reaching into the pit of nonsense :laughing:


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not. You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, references and experience first. Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.


So are you going to continually ignore the information that shows that licenses increase wages?

It is shown that a license does not guarantee better workmanship it seems, but it also increases wages. So it's a fact that if you remove all licenses from electrical work, wages will plummet 15-18%. That's the premium (amount) that licenses increase wages on average according to something I read.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> What a bullchit post this is, now you're really reaching into the pit of nonsense :laughing:


Right, so employers just ask if you have a license and hire you on the spot.
:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

MTW said:


> I used to be in favor of licensing for electricians in years past, but my thinking has come completely around on this subject. I now believe a government issued trade license is not even worth the paper it's written on and is a waste of time and resources. I think trade licensing should be abolished. Let's discuss.




MTW - .... in 1984 a Journeymen Electrician Card in Monroe County Florida , required proof of 4 years in the electrical trade to be illegible to take the 6 Hour Exam . At that time in Monroe County , you had to have one man with a " J " Card on a Electrical Construction Project at all times or No One Worked .



Pete


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> So are you going to continually ignore the information that shows that licenses increase wages?


I don't believe there is any correlation between licensing and pay. Electrician pay is determined by two things - union influence in a state (RTW states are historically lower paying for trade work) and cost of living in an area.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Liberty? Like the kind afforded to you by the NSA, TSA, and the Patriot Act? Yeah I definitely wish I had that.


Those things were forced on us, just like the licensing system.



> Just remember that living by the license free sword also means dying by the license free sword. Ask Australians.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-29/government-not-to-assess-chines***************-skills/6579290


There's always a cost to freedom, but it greatly outweighs living in a nanny state. I never said I was for inviting foreign workers into the nation and having them do tradework. Harry just assumed that because he likes to lie and misrepresent my argument.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> That has been working soooo well too. Those electrical boards have weeded out every dude doing unlicensed electrical work, and now only safe, quality work is done by trained, licensed electricians.
> 
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> ...


Spot on. :thumbsup: Enforcement is a joke. Here we have 3 or 4 state inspectors to cover 1000 square miles and 1 million people. Once in a while they catch someone working unlicensed, give them a fine and life goes on. It does absolutely nothing to stop unlicensed and unpermitted work from taking place.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Normally you complain about government agencies but since this one protects you, you have nothing to say.


You're just being stupid Pete, the fact is I worked the 5 years it took start to finish with school at night---3 nights per week in fact. I had to prove that I worked all 8,000 required hours in the field before I could challenge the Journeyman Electricians exam, I had to wait 5 full weeks to find out that I passed the exam, then I had to send in the fee to pay for them to cut me my Journeyman Electrician card,,,All while YOU were in your crib in soiled diapers sucking your thumb with a nice little bonnet on your head.

There are plenty of government agencies out there that have no worth whatsoever and I have the right to complain about them.

The trade licensing boards serve the purpose of public safety in a big way, the last thing I and 99% of consumers wants is to live in a house wired and plumbed by low skilled workers who will not be in the trades passed the time my house was built.

I'm not really sure what your motivation is in this thread besides trolling and stirring the pot.

Do you really want to De-profesionalise the trades so that the trades can be classified as low skill labour? Do you really think you'll make more profit charging $45 an hour instead of $100+ per hour? Because that is what you are advocating.

GC's will simply wire and plumb houses with low skilled workers driving wages for workers down to the minimum.




MTW said:


> Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not. You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, references and experience first. Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.



Maybe you had a free ride during your apprenticeship---Working for Daddy our a family member, But 99% of licensed guys out there had to bust their asses to get to the point where they could sit for the exam and pass it, so that license carry's a lot of weight.

If you hire a journeyman Electrician you should be experienced enough to be able to tell after the very first day on the whether or not he's worth keeping on, if not Fire him and get someone else, very simple. 

Checking references is meaningless, no one in their right mind will bad mouth a former employee because he would be left open to a law suit.





MTW said:


> You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? and experience first. *Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. *It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.


Having a license means he went through hell and high water to get to that point in the electrical trade, slackers are weeded out of the electrical trade long before he has enough time in to take the test, you should know that but you apparently did not earn your own license if you have any .


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MTW said:


> Spot on. :thumbsup: Enforcement is a joke. Here we have 3 or 4 state inspectors to cover 1000 square miles and 1 million people. Once in a while they catch someone working unlicensed, give them a fine and life goes on. It does absolutely nothing to stop unlicensed and unpermitted work from taking place.


The Californian DAS/ IBEW has found an effective, virtually universal, enforcement mechanism for ensuring that only card carrying fellas can work for an EC in this state.

They've expanded their interpretation of the law to include fining the EC himself -- that fine being the cancellation of HIS CSLB license.

{ DAS = Department of Apprentice Standards ==> a wholly 'owned' brotherhood friendly labor licensing department. It does not issue contractors licenses. It issues the right to work for an EC in this state. }

The net result of the DAS regs, as applied, has been the wholesale ejection/ flight of tens of thousands of journeymen from California. Many an old fella just retired. The implosion of California's construction economy was epic -- and in synch with the new DAS regs.

(This does not figure to affect the tract housing contractors -- who've never used native (legal) American talent in decades.)

It is no longer easy to become an apprentice in this state.

You MUST sign an indenture with a sponsoring employer. He's compelled to stick his wallet out a country mile by paying full IBEW benefits from Day 1 to the apprentice. (Identical to what a union JIW gets.) This is true even as the newbie is virtually useless, production wise, and the competition (bid wars) does not permit this extraordinary expense to be passed on. 

{ The DAS has total control over what constitutes an "apprenticeship program" -- and to everyone's surprise, it's identical in rates and structure to the IBEW program. No-one is able to certify their apprentice program as being DAS approved unless its financial package to the apprentices is -- on the benefits side -- exactly the same as the union local's standards. }

Any contractor (rapidly expanding) with a lot of apprentices is headed straight for bankruptcy. Everything favors an established EC with a high ratio of j-men to apprentices.

Ever so gradually, the talent market has tightened up.

But instead of the earnings showing up in the paycheck -- they are vectored off to the benefits package.

If the current hiatus in apprenticeship training endures, the number of fellas able to work for ECs without jeopardizing the EC's CSLB license will continue to shrink, eventually making California a 'closed shop' state... at least on the economics.

Epic cheating will, of course, follow.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Spot on. :thumbsup: Enforcement is a joke. Here we have 3 or 4 state inspectors to cover 1000 square miles and 1 million people. Once in a while they catch someone working unlicensed, give them a fine and life goes on. It does absolutely nothing to stop unlicensed and unpermitted work from taking place.


It is about MONEY. If the inspection authority would convince the insurance companies to include in the policies the statement that if a fire is determined to be caused by a HIRED...unlicensed person, the policy does not take effect in the event of a problem.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not. You would absolutely make sure he has credentials, references and experience first. Having a license only means he went through some kind of training and passed a test. It has no bearing whatsoever if he's qualified to do a particular kind of work or even that he has any skills at all. I've worked with lots of licensed electricians that are awful or just mediocre electricians. Having a license doesn't mean a thing to me.


There's nothing ironic about it at all. The first thing I would ask for is a license. If he doesn't have it, end of discussion.


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Stronger and more stringent licensing requirements are what helps our trade.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

120/208 said:


> Stronger and more stringent licensing requirements are what helps our trade.


That is true and most homeowners are the Enemy because they do not realize that just because his neighbor can hook up two wires and make a light...LIGHT, that he is compromising his and his families safety in order to save a buck. The insurance companies need to weigh in and tell the policy holder that they will not replace their property unless they had licensed persons doing the work.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

backstay said:


> You said there was no license in PA and then say there's a license fee in every jurisdiction? So there are licenses in PA. Same for AZ, I looked and see all kinds of licensing.
> 
> In MN, carpenters have no skill type license and get $35 to $50/Hr. Electricians have a skill license and get $75 to $100/hr. I think I'll keep my license.


There is no individual licensing here. Only contractors are licensed.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> There is no individual licensing here. Only contractors are licensed.


As backwards as we are here in Kentucky all electricians have to be licensed...drug tested...and sober.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

telsa said:


> The Californian DAS/ IBEW has found an effective, virtually universal, enforcement mechanism for ensuring that only card carrying fellas can work for an EC in this state.
> 
> They've expanded their interpretation of the law to include fining the EC himself -- that fine being the cancellation of HIS CSLB license.
> 
> ...


California? The state that just started licensing electricians, what, 5 years ago? The test is a fricken joke that a monkey could pass, anyway. Some challenging standards you have there. :laughing:

Oh yeah, and here is a picture of my active California General Electrician cert to show that I know what I'm talking about:


Just wanted to add, excuse the poor photo. I was hungover as hell and was just happy to get out of there. Took 9 months for my paperwork with the state of CA to go through to get that license, and that card didn't show up until 6 months after I moved back from CA to NH. Government efficiency right there.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> So are you going to continually ignore the information that shows that licenses increase wages?
> 
> It is shown that a license does not guarantee better workmanship it seems, but it also increases wages. So it's a fact that if you remove all licenses from electrical work, wages will plummet 15-18%. That's the premium (amount) that licenses increase wages on average according to something I read.


So if licensing increases wages, why do the baboons slapping wires together in Arizona make the same average wages as bonafide licensed electricians in NH? Oh yeah, because your point is invalid. Wages have to do with cost of living more than anything else. Arizona, Utah, and NH all have similar cost of living, and all have similar wage scales. Hell, NH doesn't even have an illegal immigration problem...


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> It is about MONEY. If the inspection authority would convince the insurance companies to include in the policies the statement that if a fire is determined to be caused by a HIRED...unlicensed person, the policy does not take effect in the event of a problem.


If the fire is caused by negligence the insurance company is going to go after the negligent person. If that wasn't the case why would we carry $1,000,000+ liability insurance?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> If the fire is caused by negligence the insurance company is going to go after the negligent person. If that wasn't the case why would we carry $1,000,000+ liability insurance?


Because if they can't find the guy...it's on you.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

120/208 said:


> Stronger and more stringent licensing requirements are what helps our trade.


If anything code enforcement would be better for the end user. I don't give a damn about making my trade tougher to get into, or have more rules to follow. If anything, I want to make sure people don't die because of negligence, but licensing doesn't do a damn thing to stop negligent installations. I know faaaar too many people that get work done by handyman hacks, and licensed guys that are glorified color matchers.


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## BT Electric (Feb 7, 2014)

RIVETER said:


> That is true and most homeowners are the Enemy because they do not realize that just because his neighbor can hook up two wires and make a light...LIGHT, that he is compromising his and his families safety in order to save a buck. The insurance companies need to weigh in and tell the policy holder that they will not replace their property unless they had licensed persons doing the work.



I totally agree with this. 
Here in NC the licensing requirements are stringent and there is a lot of documentation of OJT required to be able to take the exam. The last time I looked the average pass rate for all classifications was in the low 20% range, and even lower for the top 3 classifications. 


BT Electric


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> If anything code enforcement would be better for the end user. I don't give a damn about making my trade tougher to get into, or have more rules to follow. If anything, I want to make sure people don't die because of negligence, but licensing doesn't do a damn thing to stop negligent installations. I know faaaar too many people that get work done by handyman hacks, and licensed guys that are glorified color matchers.


With over 4000 posts on this forum and you talk that way. Huummm.Are you a professional, or a wannabe? Or, am I misinterpreting you...If so I apologize.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> With over 4000 posts on this forum and you talk that way. Huummm.Are you a professional, or a wannabe? Or, am I misinterpreting you...If so I apologize.



You're on a fricking tear tonight. Maybe you should put the internet down for a little bit. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

RIVETER said:


> With over 4000 posts on this forum and you talk that way. Huummm.Are you a professional, or a wannabe? Or, am I misinterpreting you...If so I apologize.


I am a licensed electrician in 2 states with an associates degree in electrical control. What does that tell you? I'll tell you one thing, it doesnt tell you a bit about my quality of work, work ethic, etc but we are not discussing that, are we?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

MTW said:


> Here's what ironic about this discussion for all you pro-license guys - would you ever hire someone simply because he has a license in hand? Would you accept a resume that simply says "Licensed Electrician" without credentials on it? Of course not.


Ummm this happens every single day in every single state. It's called the IBEW. You may have heard of them. You know, guys that went through a 5 year apprenticeship, passed an exam to be called a Journeyman Wireman, most have state licenses for they're home locals, some have specialty certifications from manufacturers and 3rd parties in the industry to man specialized work. There's even a massive amount of contractors that rely heavily on being able to make a phone call and have skilled labor show up the same day! 

Whaaaaa?!?! 

I know, it's just crazy!


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

RIVETER said:


> As backwards as we are here in Kentucky all electricians have to be licensed...drug tested...and sober.


Teeth however, are not required.:thumbup::laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JW Splicer said:


> Ummm this happens every single day in every single state. It's called the IBEW. You may have heard of them. You know, guys that went through a 5 year apprenticeship, passed an exam to be called a Journeyman Wireman, most have state licenses for they're home locals, some have specialty certifications from manufacturers and 3rd parties in the industry to man specialized work. There's even a massive amount of contractors that rely heavily on being able to make a phone call and have skilled labor show up the same day!
> 
> Whaaaaa?!?!
> 
> I know, it's just crazy!


So the IBEW has a uniform set of standards that enables them to do that. What does that prove? Nothing. You have licensed slugs in the IBEW just like you have licensed superstars.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> You're just being stupid Pete, the fact is I worked the 5 years it took start to finish with school at night---3 nights per week in fact. I had to prove that I worked all 8,000 required hours in the field before I could challenge the Journeyman Electricians exam, I had to wait 5 full weeks to find out that I passed the exam, then I had to send in the fee to pay for them to cut me my Journeyman Electrician card,,,All while YOU were in your crib in soiled diapers sucking your thumb with a nice little bonnet on your head.
> 
> There are plenty of government agencies out there that have no worth whatsoever and I have the right to complain about them.
> 
> ...




And again you can not over come the post above so you choose to ignore it, you cannot come up with ONE good reason how getting rid of the licensing system will make life much better for professional Electricians.....NOT EVEN ONE...........fool.:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> And again you can not over come the post above so you choose to ignore it, you cannot come up with ONE good reason how getting rid of the licensing system will make life much better for professional Electricians.....NOT EVEN ONE...........fool.:laughing:


It only helps people like yourself that cannot survive or compete without a license. For everyone else, it's a waste of time and money.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

MTW said:


> Of course not, because Jlarson, 220 and many others destroy your theory that electricians in states that have no licensing only make $8 an hour or whatever garbage you spew. If anything, they prove the exact opposite, that trade licensing or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on an electrician's earning potential. As usual, you painted yourself into a corner and when confronted with truth, you have nothing to say.


Also in az. And do you really consider scraping by a good thing? Our wages are pitiful here. Yeah its more than $8. But a jw is going to struggle his life away here.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> It only helps people like yourself that cannot survive or compete without a license. For everyone else, it's a waste of time and money.


And again you are wrong you stupid f,UK! You would not be in the trade today with out your license unless you really can live on $15 an hour.....

Wake up!


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Of course not, because Jlarson, 220 and many others destroy your theory that electricians in states that have no licensing only make $8 an hour or whatever garbage you spew. If anything, they prove the exact opposite, that trade licensing or lack thereof has no bearing whatsoever on an electrician's earning potential. As usual, you painted yourself into a corner and when confronted with truth, you have nothing to say.


220 is a business owner an JLarson has not posted what his wages are, which I suspect are good considering what he works on so his wages will not be typical of the average electrician in Arizona stupid!


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Why do you insist we compete with each other like a couple of ****roaches fighting over a pile of dung. Great! your at the top of the pile and your fellow craftsmen are at the bottom feeding off your scraps. You realize this happens to just be a job for some people, they aren't going to care like you do, they aren't going to put in the effort or time you are to arrive where you have. That's life, but if they make more money, so do you. For them to make more money, they need to achieve higher perceived standards. Does having a degree make you smart? Nope, so why does someone with a degree earn on average 30K more per year? You're running a race with people who aren't exactly racing here. Can you really finish 1st place in a one man race?


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Did things change in NJ??
When i held my license in jersey, only the owner was required to be licensed and everyone worked under his license. 
I know they were considering more levels of licenses but i moved in 2007 and not aware of any changes. 
With that said, here's another take on licensing, instead of no license or everyone licensed, here only the owner is licensed and needs to make sure his employees are qualified.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Why is ****roach a bad word?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> 220 is a business owner an JLarson has not posted what his wages are, which I suspect are good considering what he works on so his wages will not be typical of the average electrician in Arizona stupid!


:sleep1:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> :sleep1:


:sleep1:
:sleep1:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> 220 is a business owner an JLarson has not posted what his wages are, which I suspect are good considering what he works on so his wages will not be typical of the average electrician in Arizona stupid!


I'm an owner too. 

Never made 8 dollars either.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

MTW said:


> So the IBEW has a uniform set of standards that enables them to do that. What does that prove? Nothing. You have licensed slugs in the IBEW just like you have licensed superstars.


No argument there, you're right. We have slugs. Lots. But IBEW wages are generally higher across the nation compared to the average open shop journeyman. Why? Because we have a minimum set of standards that at the very least sets the bar for the labor in our industry. It might not be high, but at least it's not on the ground. There are open shop guys that make way more than a JW, but it's the exception, not the average. That's just the union side, imagine if the entire industry was held to a higher standard, it's all about perception, not perspective, you can be the best monkey, but you're still just a monkey.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I'm an owner too.
> 
> Never made 8 dollars either.


Good you just killed his point......thanks....:laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Good you just killed his point......thanks....:laughing:


He killed your point Harry. Are you going senile or something? You are the one that keeps yammering away that without a license electricians cant make crap, and J is saying the opposite. Wake up and pay attention if you want to discuss things at the adult table.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> He killed your point Harry. Are you going senile or something? You are the one that keeps yammering away that without a license electricians cant make crap, and J is saying the opposite. Wake up and pay attention if you want to discuss things at the adult table.


I'm speaking to 2 children----First off KID back in your grand pops day when NH did not have a license system you're talking a different country at that time, back then Americans were in charge and we all worked together with the Idea if you worked you would make a good living...Today we live in a world where the assholes in charge work daily to undercut all of us in favor of their multy-international corporate buddy's..

And BTW your Grand pops could not do any work here without and mass license---Our license system has been in place since 1915..

A _Journeyman_ _Electrician _in Phoenix, _Arizona_ earns an average _wage_ of $19.29 per hour.


A _Journeyman Electrician_ in Boston, _Massachusetts_ earns an average _wage_ of $38.91 per hour.

Care to explain the difference?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Going_Commando said:


> California? The state that just started licensing electricians, what, 5 years ago? The test is a fricken joke that a monkey could pass, anyway. Some challenging standards you have there. :laughing:
> 
> Oh yeah, and here is a picture of my active California General Electrician cert to show that I know what I'm talking about:
> 
> ...



California lost a LOT of wire monkeys with the DAS provision. :laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> I'm speaking to 2 children----First off KID back in your grand pops day when NH
> 
> A _Journeyman_ _Electrician _in Phoenix, _Arizona_ earns an average _wage_ of $19.29 per hour.
> 
> ...


Oh gee, I don't know..maybe cost of living might have something to do with it. Care to provide a comparison list of costs between Boston and Phoenix?


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

MTW said:


> Oh gee, I don't know..maybe cost of living might have something to do with it. Care to provide a comparison list of costs between Boston and Phoenix?


I seriously doubt there is a $20 hr difference in cost of living between the two cities.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Oh gee, I don't know..maybe cost of living might have something to do with it. Care to provide a comparison list of costs between Boston and Phoenix?


Yeah and a truck that cost $56,000 in Mass costs the same in Arizona, again your argument loses


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Yeah and a truck that cost $56,000 in Mass costs the same in Arizona, again your argument loses


 Don't stress it, Dog, or you're going to blow another nose gasket. It's not worth it over a few guys who want to aspire to the same status as a garbage man.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> You're just being stupid Pete, the fact is I worked the 5 years it took start to finish with school at night---3 nights per week in fact. I had to prove that I worked all 8,000 required hours in the field before I could challenge the Journeyman Electricians exam, I had to wait 5 full weeks to find out that I passed the exam, then I had to send in the fee to pay for them to cut me my Journeyman Electrician card,,,All while YOU were in your crib in soiled diapers sucking your thumb with a nice little bonnet on your head.


 Im not sure what pete infancy has to do with all this but ok :blink:






> There are plenty of government agencies out there that have no worth whatsoever and I have the right to complain about them.
> 
> The trade licensing boards serve the purpose of public safety in a big way, the last thing I and 99% of consumers wants is to live in a house wired and plumbed by low skilled workers who will not be in the trades passed the time my house was built.


 If the government really cared about public safety we would see this:

1. No DIY work allowed

2. Home inspections completed by actual certified electricians

3. A code that caters to professionals while addressing real hazards rather then selling gimmicks. 








> I'm not really sure what your motivation is in this thread besides trolling and stirring the pot.


 I don't think MTW is trolling, I think he is saying something that needs to be said. What works for some does not for others, and there is nothing wrong with that. 





> Do you really want to De-profesionalise the trades so that the trades can be classified as low skill labour? Do you really think you'll make more profit charging $45 an hour instead of $100+ per hour? Because that is what you are advocating.
> 
> GC's will simply wire and plumb houses with low skilled workers driving wages for workers down to the minimum.


 
I don't think that's his goal or what will happen, but at this point that is already taking place from other forces at work. 





> Maybe you had a free ride during your apprenticeship---Working for Daddy our a family member, But 99% of licensed guys out there had to bust their asses to get to the point where they could sit for the exam and pass it, so that license carry's a lot of weight.


 
Yes, disposed of all common sense brutalized to fit into a mold. 

Im not berating you in any way, you are an incredibly smart guy but not so much others. I have seen some incredibly stupid people who couldn't care less about the trade carrying a license. Others with a brain like Micromind chucked out. If the system worked I would not be seeing this. 








> Having a license means he went through hell and high water to get to that point in the electrical trade, slackers are weeded out of the electrical trade long before he has enough time in to take the test, you should know that but you apparently did not earn your own license if you have any.




It means nothing. Hell and high water do not produce talent, passion does. You can not force passion, you can only inspire it. There are apprentices who do nothing but pull material and clean up. 

Also, who is to determine who is a slacker? There are kids with above average intelligence who become board in school, then get labelled ADHD and pumped full of mind altering drugs all because the system goes by a one size fits all.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Too bad Hacks cannot join in this sorry excuse for a miserable thread.


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Good you just killed his point......thanks....:laughing:


I never thought I would see Harry so passionately defending the liberal ideology of government over-regulation. You're a closet democrat, aren't you?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

bkmichael65 said:


> I never thought I would see Harry so passionately defending the liberal ideology of government over-regulation. You're a closet democrat, aren't you?


The mass law passed in 1915 full republican house senate and governor, those guys were no liberals:laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Yeah and a truck that cost $56,000 in Mass costs the same in Arizona, again your argument loses


No one needs to waste 50+k on a plastic piece of crap no matter where they live.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

MTW said:


> An apprenticeship means nothing. An apprentice might do nothing but run conduit and pull wire, or rope houses, or in NYC might carry material up high rise buildings all day long.
> 
> There are plenty of electricians with high aptitude, are fast learners and who are excellent at their job without a piece of paper in hand and have never done an apprenticeship. Conversely there are plenty of licensed electricians who could do a 20 year apprenticeship and still nothing more than installers.


There are also thousands of unqualified, incompetent handymen. No certification means that it's ok for them to play electrician. More Electricians means more competition means lower charge out, means lower pay.......


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> No one needs to waste 50+k on a plastic piece of crap no matter where they live.


So you walk to work dragging a little red wagon with all your tools?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

telsa said:


> California lost a LOT of wire monkeys with the DAS provision. :laughing:



Tesla ... I got one of those too .

The " J " mans test in CA , did not compare to a "J " mans 6 hour test in Monroe Florida in the old days .

I could also work out of IBEW 332 . Santa Clara CA .




Pete


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> So you walk to work dragging a little red wagon with all your tools?


Or you could buy a reasonably priced vehicle.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> The mass law passed in 1915 full republican house senate and governor, those guys were no liberals:laughing:


My how the years wipe away history.

Liberalism DEFINED the Republican party.

It was founded entirely on the liberal principle that no man can be chattel/ property.

Teddy Roosevelt's presidency is now considered the threshold moment of the Progressive Era in American national politics.

All straight through the first 1/3rd of the 20th Century, the Democrat party was the conservative/ reactionary party. It was the party of Jim Crow. The KKK was founded to hound REPUBLICANS. It only fell back and turned on Blacks when the Republicans left town and headed back home -- up north. (1873)

The Republican party gained the Elephant as its icon because of a Civil War era popular tale. { A traveling merchant/ peddler -- with his goods hauled by an ass -- lost his load when the donkey saw the travelling circus -- which had an elephant. The closing line of the tale was: "Well, I saw the elephant." 

"Seeing the Elephant" was short hand for whether a soldier had actually been in battle. { ie saw the "big show" }

Naturally, this left the Democrat party to be the 'ass' -- and they are still the donkey in political cartoons to this day. Of course the ass was, and is, universally considered to be recalcitrant. Over the next century, the Democrat party proved to be the blocking faction thwarting liberal politics across every dimension. 

The Republicans were deemed the party of both Union AND the war to enforce that union.

The Democrat party was deemed the party of SLAVERY (it swept the South in the election of 1860 -- and no where else) and cession.

The Democrat party had been founded by slave owners -- with Andrew Jackson deemed to be the founder of the Democrat party as it's currently thought of. 

( NOT Thomas Jefferson -- who founded the Democrat-Republican Party -- it's full title.) 

Jackson entirely restructured everything that had come before. (Re-naming the party, to boot.) 

He was the FIRST popularly elected president. 

( Previous presidents had been voted in by the LAND OWNING CLASS. Those without land titles did not have any voting rights until Congress expanded the vote. These fellows just happened to be the massive majority of the male population. Hence, this was THE watershed election of the 19th Century -- even bigger in import than that of 1860.)

The first time the Democrat party held meaningful power -- real control of the Federal government -- was 1913. This immediately led to the Federal Reserve Act, the Income Tax Amendment, the Volsted Act, Jim Crow in Washington DC, and, segregation of the US military... oh yes, Wilson fired all Black civil servants, too. Of course he was a flaming racist. ( Read his PhD thesis. It reads like the party planks for the Nazis. His personal beliefs were huge in his war policies, too. )

Hoover ran the Republican administrations of the 1921-1933 era. The first two he ran from the Commerce Department. Harding and Coolidge were mere place holders while ALL of the action shot across Hoover's desk. This was universally known at that time -- with endless gag political cartoons pointing out this reality.

Harding and Coolidge spent most of their time kicking back and keeping quiet. Harding was a last second (compromise) convention selection who had NO national political base. Coolidge kept his mouth shut.

VIRTUALLY EVERY Great Depression program associated with FDR is nothing but a re-named HOOVER Great Depression program.

Programs, BTW, that FDR ran AGAINST all through 1932. Then, upon taking office, FDR did a TOTAL reversal and ramped UP Hoover's Federal economic interventions -- this time on steroids.

The MSM fell in love with FDR and his charm. So, even though they were liberals ( ie registered Republican voters ) the MSM flipped entirely into FDR's corner. 

FDR got all of the Democrats to REVERSE their blocking votes ( that they'd cast against Hoover's liberal spending programs ) while the Republican liberals continued to vote for programs that merely continued and extended what Hoover -- and they -- had already been doing.

The result was the famous "First 100 days" of the FDR presidency.

Re-read the above paragraph to understand WHY FDR was getting these massively favorable votes. ( He'd flipped his own party, not the Republicans!)

FDR maintained the segregated military that Woodrow Wilson had segregated with an executive order. It took Truman to issue the counter order ... another executive order.

The Democrat party didn't pursue the Black vote until a FULL CENTURY after the Civil War.

Like FDR, LBJ got the Civil Rights Act passed -- by flipping his OWN party. The Republicans had seen their Civil Right legislation de-railed by the Democrats for the previous decade. When it finally passed, it had more Republican votes than Democrat votes -- any way you want to figure it -- absolute or percentage of party.

Naturally, the MSM labelled this law as the Democratic party's finest hour.

With history like that, no wonder modern kids think that Lincoln was a Democrat -- and that the KKK and the Republicans could ever sit in the same pew!

Such distorted comprehension is easy to witness even at ET.C when "DIY history buffs" opine on current events.

You end up with 'hack history' instead of 'hack installations.'


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Or you could buy a reasonably priced vehicle.


A seasoned Journeyman should be able to buy a brand new vehicle on his salary.

One can only guess what a vehicle cost out there but here they are above $50k now above $40k for a full sized van with racks and shelves....stock and tools will ad another $10K.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

mitch65 said:


> There are also thousands of unqualified, incompetent handymen. No certification means that it's ok for them to play electrician. More Electricians means more competition means lower charge out, means lower pay.......


The number of boobs I see doing electric work amazes me, union and open shop, hacks from the start. A license and inspection does nothing in most cases, because the inspectors are just one hack away from being a handyman.


----------



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
> 
> Yeah and a truck that cost $56,000 in Mass costs the same in Arizona, again your argument loses


I'd bet it cost more in Mass, just based on taxes, license for dealers, license plates, tire fees, battery fees, penalty for being successful fees, road tax.................


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> I'd bet it cost more in Mass, just based on taxes, license for dealers, license plates, tire fees, battery fees, penalty for being successful fees, road tax.................


That stuff is all 'old hat' here....:laughing::laughing::no:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> How would the elimination of government issued trade licensing lower the pay? I'm not sure I follow the math.


One word.
Florida.
The Latin Builders Association lobbied to abolish journeyman licensing requirements for contractors holding State Certified licenses.
They got it. Wages plummeted. They then worked down the Prevailing wage rates by averaging helper and journeyman skilled labor rates.
Chopped wages in half.
The price of jobs remained the same.
We now pick up the cost of section 8 housing, food stamps and Medicaid plus the cost of collecting child support from deadbeat dads. 
If they get married, the benefits vanish.
I don't think this is the American way. It's more of the way the caste system operates in the banana republics that now run Florida.

It didn't take long before the teeth of the enforcing division to rot and fall out, they de-funded it.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> *The number of boobs I see doing electric work amazes me*


I think I am in the wrong area of electrical work.


----------



## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

jrannis said:


> One word.
> Florida.
> The Latin Builders Association lobbied to abolish journeyman licensing requirements for contractors holding State Certified licenses.
> They got it. Wages plummeted. They then worked down the Prevailing wage rates by averaging helper and journeyman skilled labor rates.
> ...




One Word ... " Florida " .

True .




Pete


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> A seasoned Journeyman should be able to buy a brand new vehicle on his salary.
> 
> One can only guess what a vehicle cost out there but here they are above $50k now above $40k for a full sized van with racks and shelves....stock and tools will ad another $10K.


Why does everyone need a fully stocked van, employees certainly don't.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> Why does everyone need a fully stocked van, employees certainly don't.


True, so pay them less. After all they don't need the money right?:laughing:


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Yes. I was born with a mind that work in ways few others do.


This is one of many reasons why I am vehemently opposed to licensing electricians. 

I have never been officially taught ANYTHING about electrical. Everything I know about theory and application has been from either natural talent I was born with or learning as I went along. Most of it was natural-born talent. Like figuring out Y and ∆ transformer connections when I was about 12. 

Yes, I suppose I had some sort of 'apprenticeship' in that I learned how to install stuff from guys with more experience, but this was the smaller part.

I'm pretty sure that my posts here on ET are a testament to my knowledge and abilities........all from a guy who would not be allowed to sit for the journeymans test in just about every place that requires licensing. 

My biggest problem with licensing is that no jurisdiction recognizes knowledge or experience gained from any unofficial source. Communism at its finest.......

Part of the reason I left Oregon for Nevada is that Oregon requires a license for just about everything electrical. I seriously doubt if you are allowed to change a light bulb without a license there. Nevada does not license journeymen, though the city of Reno does. 

I would say that the general overall attitude of the Oregon electricians I knew was 'I have a license, you don't, so you'll just have to accept whatever work I do'. Whereas in Nevada, every journeyman knows he can be replaced in an instant and if he is going to keep his job, he needs to be better than the potential replacements. 

Generally speaking, I'd say that the overall quality of workmanship is at least the same if not better in Nevada. 

Further, Union scale in Reno is 37.50 plus about 8 in bennies. Non-union is not far behind. 

When our daughter was born, 21 years ago, my late wife became a stay at home mom to her and our two sons. We did just fine on my income alone. 

So much for the low wage argument.......

The only good I've ever seen licensing do is that it employs a bunch of useless bureaucrats (most of them nothing more than overgrown schoolyard bullies)......wait, that isn't exactly good, is it?

Sorry for the rant; I'm really passionate about excessive government intrusion into personal lives.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

mitch65 said:


> There are also thousands of unqualified, incompetent handymen. No certification means that it's ok for them to play electrician. More Electricians means more competition means lower charge out, means lower pay.......


Totally irrelevant argument considering that handymen don't generally wire substations, industrial facilities, large retail, etc. Yes, handymen do lots of work in the resi sector but that is only one aspect of a very diverse trade.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> There's nothing ironic about it at all. The first thing I would ask for is a license. If he doesn't have it, end of discussion.


That's not the point I was making at all and you know it. I asked if anyone would hire an electrician _solely and exclusively_ based on him having a license with no other examination of his credentials and experience. Of course not, because it's well understood that a license is not a gauge of one's qualifications. A proper resume will always include a list of one's qualifications. The license is almost an afterthought.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> You're just being stupid Pete, the fact is I worked the 5 years it took start to finish with school at night---3 nights per week in fact. I had to prove that I worked all 8,000 required hours in the field before I could challenge the Journeyman Electricians exam, I had to wait 5 full weeks to find out that I passed the exam, then I had to send in the fee to pay for them to cut me my Journeyman Electrician card,,,


Yeah, and? 



> All while YOU were in your crib in soiled diapers sucking your thumb with a nice little bonnet on your head.


Ok, so you're old. What's your point other than to make an irrelevant comment about my age? 



> There are plenty of government agencies out there that have no worth whatsoever and I have the right to complain about them.


Well at least you'll admit that. 



> The trade licensing boards serve the purpose of public safety in a big way, the last thing I and 99% of consumers wants is to live in a house wired and plumbed by low skilled workers who will not be in the trades passed the time my house was built.


No, they care about collecting fees and handing out fines, nothing more. I totally agree with Meadow that if they truly cared about safety they would be imposing other rules that actually impacted safety (but would greatly restrict freedom.



> I'm not really sure what your motivation is in this thread besides trolling and stirring the pot.


I stated what my motivation was in my OP, you can go back and read it. 



> Do you really want to De-profesionalise the trades so that the trades can be classified as low skill labour?


Have I ever said that, even one time? I'm simply saying a license does nothing toward guaranteeing a professional standard and quality of work, and that the whole licensing process is useless and corrupt. 




> Do you really think you'll make more profit charging $45 an hour instead of $100+ per hour? Because that is what you are advocating.


If more freedom from government intrusion means less profit, then so be it. There's always a price to pay for more freedom, but most are not willing to pay it. 



> GC's will simply wire and plumb houses with low skilled workers driving wages for workers down to the minimum.


That's already happening in states with strict licensing laws. Heck, I even do plumbing sometimes. :thumbsup:







> Maybe you had a free ride during your apprenticeship---Working for Daddy our a family member,


Nope, nobody in my family is even remotely associated with any trade.



> But 99% of licensed guys out there had to bust their asses to get to the point where they could sit for the exam and pass it, so that license carry's a lot of weight.


Yeah, they worked in their respective discipline, got hours and took a test. Once again, it proves nothing. 



> If you hire a journeyman Electrician you should be experienced enough to be able to tell after the very first day on the whether or not he's worth keeping on, if not Fire him and get someone else, very simple.


So you're actually proving my point, his license doesn't mean squat. You actually need to see what he can do and what knows before you get serious about keeping him on. 



> Checking references is meaningless, no one in their right mind will bad mouth a former employee because he would be left open to a law suit.



Yeah, ok. :laughing:






> Having a license means he went through hell and high water to get to that point in the electrical trade,


It means he went through the government appointed program and was spit out like good little robot



> slackers are weeded out of the electrical trade long before he has enough time in to take the test,


Anyone who has worked more than a few months in the trade knows that's a bold a face lie. I'm incredulous that you would even make such a ridiculous statement. 




> you should know that but you apparently did not earn your own license if you have any .




Sure, whatever you say. You got me there.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Yeah, ok. :laughing:


No, really. Saying anything bad about former employees aside from wither or not they are available for rehire is illegal.

If you catch (and record) a former boss doing that you will get a very nice payday.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

bkmichael65 said:


> I never thought I would see Harry so passionately defending the liberal ideology of government over-regulation. You're a closet democrat, aren't you?


Just remember his hypocrisy next time he starts another thread about big government.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't see how the idea of a larger pool of willing and able workers will lead to lower wages is difficult to comprehend or grasp.

I offered to provide evidence of it but you simply ignored it saying you do not believe it, which is willful ignorance. Stupidity is not knowing, ignorance is refusing to know.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> No, really. Saying anything bad about former employees aside from wither or not they are available for rehire is illegal.
> 
> If you catch (and record) a former boss doing that you will get a very nice payday.


Society is in pretty sad shape if that's true.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> Society is in pretty sad shape if that's true.


Perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time arguing on an internet forum.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> I don't see how the idea of a larger pool of willing and able workers will lead to lower wages is difficult to comprehend or grasp.
> 
> I offered to provide evidence of it but you simply ignored it saying you do not believe it, which is willful ignorance. Stupidity is not knowing, ignorance is refusing to know.


It will only lead to lower wages of those unable to prove their own worth.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MTW said:


> It will only lead to lower wages of those unable to prove their own worth.


Without evidence to prove this it is nothing more than your opinion. Do you have evidence to support this claim?

Also, I pulled this up concerning what former bosses can say:

_First, understand that any negative input a reference offers about you is not wrongful or unlawful per se. *Negative input may be illegal – some categories include discrimination, defamation, retaliation, disparagement or sexual harassment.* Where a third party can document that a reference’s communication was wrongful, inaccurate, and/or malicious, you may indeed have the ability – through an attorney – to pursue legal recourse. In situations where a reference’s negative input is or is not unlawful but is restricting your ability to secure future employment, it can typically be addressed through the generation and transmittal of a Cease-&-Desist letter (again, through an attorney). Remember, unless required by law (and most states do not require that a former employer disclose information about your prior employment), former employers are not required to even respond to a reference request.

_I bolded that part to place emphasis on how vague it is. It was the opinion of a company I worked for to never give out negative references and instead to simply say if someone was available for rehire and when they worked. It seems that's not the law and laws vary from state to state.

So, I stand corrected. Iffy area.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

An electrical license is similar to a college degree. As long as you go to your classes, do the coursework and pass with a minimum GPA, you will get your degree. It doesn't mean you learned anything or are qualified to do a particular job. Likewise, if you show up, do your work and pass a test, you get an electrical license. It's no gauge of aptitude, knowledge, or skill.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

NC Plc said:


> No, really. Saying anything bad about former employees aside from wither or not they are available for rehire is illegal.
> 
> If you catch (and record) a former boss doing that you will get a very nice payday.


That is pure nonsense. It is sometimes a company policy, but there is no such law that prevents a former employer from saying anything they want about an employee

*** I see you've amended that answer, so disregard


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> This is one of many reasons why I am vehemently opposed to licensing electricians.
> 
> I have never been officially taught ANYTHING about electrical. Everything I know about theory and application has been from either natural talent I was born with or learning as I went along. Most of it was natural-born talent. Like figuring out Y and ∆ transformer connections when I was about 12.
> 
> ...







micromind said:


> My biggest problem with licensing is that no jurisdiction recognizes knowledge or experience gained from any unofficial source. Communism at its finest.......


We can all agree on that.



micromind said:


> I would say that the general overall attitude of the Oregon electricians I knew was 'I have a license, you don't, so you'll just have to accept whatever work I do'. Whereas in Nevada, every journeyman knows he can be replaced in an instant and if he is going to keep his job, he needs to be better than the potential replacements.


That may be the prevailing attitude in Oregon, however that chit don't cut it here. Any Licensed Journeyman here will not last a week with that attitude, every journeyman electrician knows he can be replaced here if he's not up to the job just like in Nevada.



micromind said:


> Sorry for the rant; I'm really passionate about excessive government intrusion into personal lives.


 same here, however the electricians in this state in 1915 lobbied to create a licensing law that has worked well for 100 years for Electricians and the electrical trade here----It is hardly "excessive government intrusion into personal lives".
Every man here who wants to become an electrician knows what is set up to get them through the apprenticeship and take the exam and pass. that is a long hard road that I had to overcome, the #1 job is to support my family and get the license no mater what the cost-----now a candy ass ***** like Peter D who lives with Mom, it is most likely that he is no longer in the electrical trade because he found a better way to make a living or his mom supports his candy ass----he knows that without the licensing system the wages for electrical workers will fall to that of a toilet scrubber.

You may hold a job that is in a nich------good for you. Many electricians never got such luck-----keep in mind that that job can be gone at anytime an you will not have a pot to piss in regardless of your knowledge....

I do not mean to be harsh on you, however there is a real world out there...

You can read that in the post below......



jrannis said:


> One word.
> Florida.
> The Latin Builders Association lobbied to abolish journeyman licensing requirements for contractors holding State Certified licenses.
> They got it. Wages plummeted. They then worked down the Prevailing wage rates by averaging helper and journeyman skilled labor rates.
> ...


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Yeah, and?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not read one word of it....:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> An electrical license is similar to a college degree. As long as you go to your classes, do the coursework and pass with a minimum GPA, you will get your degree. It doesn't mean you learned anything or are qualified to do a particular job. Likewise, if you show up, do your work and pass a test, you get an electrical license. It's no gauge of aptitude, knowledge, or skill.


:sleep1::sleep1::sleep1:


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Licensing = Higher Wages.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MTW said:


> That's not the point I was making at all and you know it. I asked if anyone would hire an electrician _solely and exclusively_ based on him having a license with no other examination of his credentials and experience. Of course not, because it's well understood that a license is not a gauge of one's qualifications. A proper resume will always include a list of one's qualifications. The license is almost an afterthought.


I don't know quite how to say it -- so I'll blurt it out: every blue collar resume I've seen is stuffed with lies -- especially about their skill level.

The only thing more deceptive than a blue collar resume is a CraigsList advert. There's a fellow out here posting snaps of his stuff. All the wire and gear is European -- as in IEC and Brown-Blue-Yellow/striped Green earthing conductor. He's so shameless that he post chronically through the day -- and works from a cell phone that has an out of area phone code... as in from 120 miles away.

In sum: MOST credentials for blue collar talent are de facto worthless.

{ Some put great credence on the applicant's tool sacks/ tool suite, etc. This has led to players stealing tools so that they can show up with USED professional tools -- as if they actually know how to use them. Heh. }

A state license is the only practical certification that provides even the most basic hurdle.

The IBEW / DAS scheme caused tens of thousands of wire monkeys to flee California. ( Their timing was apt. Construction hereabouts simply collapsed to nothing. Yes, California is INSANELY overbuilt with commercial space. We have seven to ten year old 'shell' buildings that have NEVER been TI'd and leased... all over the place. )

{ It got so bad that our local billionaire developer went back to work -- in the office -- running a U-Haul franchise. ( He noted that everybody was leaving town to find employment, so he stepped up to fill that need.)}

:laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I can point out many localities where having a license is a waste of time, mainly because the fees, penalties , insurance and bureaucratic oversight justify NOT having one.


I can also prattle on about apprenticeship programs, what they're inclusive of, who writes and administrates them , much to the point of degrade and detriment.


Thing is, i've always been a proletariat , believing the power of collectivism fuels it 

So my challenge to both pro and con camps follows suit here

What makes us stronger?

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> -----now a candy ass ***** like Peter D who lives with Mom, it is most likely that he is no longer in the electrical trade because he found a better way to make a living or his mom supports his candy ass----he knows that without the licensing system the wages for electrical workers will fall to that of a toilet scrubber.


So you've had to resort to childish name calling to make your point - a classic sign that you've lost the argument. Bottom line, you cannot bear the idea of having to make a living without the government protecting you, so you lash out and attack anyone who suggests that we should.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Licensing = Higher Wages.


False. I am anti-union, but even I will acknowledge that unions = higher wages.


----------



## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

NM does not require any schooling, only OJT. Guys like micromind who had no formal apprenticeship can still get a license. In fact NM has some of the best licensing I've seen. Which is why people pay big money on the cheater courses. 
EL-1J over 5000V (linework)
EE-98J all electrical work under 5000V (includes all other licenses) other than Linework
ES-7J telephone (outside plant telephone guys are supposed to have this)
ES-3J low voltage (alarms, cable, satellite, inside plant basically)
ER-1J residential
And then there are a bunch of other little one for well pump installers.

The 98 has a code test, theory test, and a hands on. Motor controls, transformers, conduit bending, switches, material identification. It's a 6 hour test is you take all 3 parts in one day. Most people do not pass the first time.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> So you've had to resort to childish name calling to make your point - a classic sign that you've lost the argument. Bottom line, you cannot bear the idea of having to make a living without the government protecting you, so you lash out and attack anyone who suggests that we should.


This whole thread is a about a childish man who does not appreciate all the hard work it takes to make it to the point of getting the license.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> This whole thread is a about a childish man who does not appreciate all the hard work it takes to make it to the point of getting the license.


If that's what you take away from this thread, then you're quite dense.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> If that's what you take away from this thread, then you're quite dense.


Sorry but You are dense for even floating this stupidity.

Again You obviously took a free ride during your apprenticeship and someone else paid for your schooling as well. there is no way you would want to get rid of the licensing system if you really had to earn your license :no:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Sorry but You are dense for even floating this stupidity.
> 
> Again You obviously took a free ride during your apprenticeship and someone else paid for your schooling as well. there is no way you would want to get rid of the licensing system if you really had to earn your license :no:




I guess you can't comprehend the idea I've had a change of heart because I see that the licensing process is nothing more than a money grab by the government, and does not produce a qualified workforce. If the state was truly concerned about safety, they would be going after the hoards of illegal aliens doing trade work here, but they won't touch that with a 100 foot pole. That is all the proof I need that licensing has nothing to do with safety and worker training.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Sorry but You are dense for even floating this stupidity.
> 
> Again You obviously took a free ride during your apprenticeship and someone else paid for your schooling as well. there is no way you would want to get rid of the licensing system if you really had to earn your license :no:





I think you missed MTW's point and are taking it as a personnel attack on your effort to become an electrician. That is not the case, I respect your effort like everyone else's and Im sure MTW does to.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> An electrical license is similar to a college degree. As long as you go to your classes, do the coursework and pass with a minimum GPA, you will get your degree. It doesn't mean you learned anything or are qualified to do a particular job. Likewise, if you show up, do your work and pass a test, you get an electrical license. It's no gauge of aptitude, knowledge, or skill.


Exactly my thoughts. 


If anything it weeds out those who are out of the normal spectrum, be it dribbling idiot or brilliant genius. Any deviation outside of average is unwelcome.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> This whole thread is a about a childish man who does not appreciate all the hard work it takes to make it to the point of getting the license.



Please do not take offense to this but seeing it first hand some of that hard work is nothing more then behavioral and psychological modification. Its intended to strip a person of common sense and designed to produce blind compliance. Its the reason why we have so many people who accept everything good or bad with any questioning. AFCIs are a perfect example.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I respect any state that does not license electricians.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Please do not take offense to this but seeing it first hand some of that hard work is nothing more then behavioral and psychological modification. Its intended to strip a person of common sense and designed to produce blind compliance. Its the reason why we have so many people who accept everything good or bad with any questioning. AFCIs are a perfect example.


AFCI's are part of the NEC and not part of the licensing system----the rest of what you just said is psychobabble..... :laughing:


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> This whole thread is a about a childish man who does not appreciate all the hard work it takes to make it to the point of getting the license.


It's not that hard. I jumped the hoops and passed an open book test, but it was probably easier than guys that had to learn the trade on their own. Licensing laws are primarily set up to protect apprenticeship programs that receive billions of dollars in grants from the Department of Labor


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> 
> If anything it weeds out those who are out of the normal spectrum, be it dribbling idiot or brilliant genius. Any deviation outside of average is unwelcome.



:thumbsup:


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> Please do not take offense to this but seeing it first hand some of that hard work is nothing more then behavioral and psychological modification. Its intended to strip a person of common sense and designed to produce blind compliance. Its the reason why we have so many people who accept everything good or bad with any questioning. AFCIs are a perfect example.


Agree completely. 

Very well stated.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> 
> If anything it weeds out those who are out of the normal spectrum, be it dribbling idiot or brilliant genius. Any deviation outside of average is unwelcome.


And where no licenses exist, the dribbling idiots would be weeded out by natural selection of the trades and the geniuses would be allowed to add their natural talent to the trades. 

One of the many drawbacks of licensing is that it gives the same credibility to an idiot as it does to a genius. 

The idiot remains an idiot yet the genius is not allowed to exercise his full potential. 

Were it not for the fact that Nevada had the sense to not require licenses, I would very likely still be pounding nails, or maybe by now I would have just snapped..........

I don't even want to think about it.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

micromind said:


> And where no licenses exist, the dribbling idiots would be weeded out by natural selection of the trades and the geniuses would be allowed to add their natural talent to the trades.



Doesnt work out that way at all. What kind of fantasy land do you live in? What happens is anyone can claim to be a electrician and wages plummet. Come to arizona.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I guess you can't comprehend the idea I've had a change of heart because I see that the licensing process is nothing more than a money grab by the government, and does not produce a qualified workforce. If the state was truly concerned about safety, they would be going after the hoards of illegal aliens doing trade work here, but they won't touch that with a 100 foot pole. That is all the proof I need that licensing has nothing to do with safety and worker training.


And again, if it was such a money grab they would be charging us ten times the price they are today.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> And again, if it was such a money grab they would be charging us ten times the price they are today.


If you want to see the money grab, look up your state's budget for the offices professional licensing as well as the division for apprenticeship standards. Don't forget to look up funding from the U.S. department of labor, education, veteran's affairs, etc., etc. to the various apprenticeship programs.

Just because you're in favor of billions of tax dollars spent because you think it's going to eliminate your competition, doesn't mean that it's good for America or does anything to promote the profession. There will always be hacks to contend with whether they're licensed or not


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> AFCI's are part of the NEC and not part of the licensing system----the rest of what you just said is psychobabble..... :laughing:



Yes, but most electricians don't even question them despite physics and studies actually debunking them. Psychobabble yes, but perhaps you are lucky enough not to see it. I stand behind my words, anyone can be behind a license.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

fistofbolts said:


> Doesnt work out that way at all. What kind of fantasy land do you live in? What happens is anyone can claim to be a electrician and wages plummet. Come to arizona.



I doubt a personnel experience is a fantasy. :whistling2:


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> Doesnt work out that way at all. What kind of fantasy land do you live in? What happens is anyone can claim to be a electrician and wages plummet. Come to arizona.


When I moved to Nevada from Oregon, 25 years ago, journeyman wages were higher than Oregon. As far as I know, they still are. 

In Oregon, all you needed was a license, in Nevada, you need to be quick and your work needs to look good. If you don't make the company money, you're out.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Yes, but most electricians don't even question them despite physics and studies actually debunking them. Psychobabble yes, but perhaps you are lucky enough not to see it. I stand behind my words, anyone can be behind a license.


Despite physics and studies of what?:blink:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> And again, if it was such a money grab they would be charging us ten times the price they are today.


That's pure speculation and you have no proof of that whatsoever. The fact that it's even $150 a year is too much.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> I doubt a personnel experience is a fantasy. :whistling2:


My post was based on my personal experience, no fantasy involved.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> When I moved to Nevada from Oregon, 25 years ago, journeyman wages were higher than Oregon. As far as I know, they still are.
> 
> In Oregon, all you needed was a license, in Nevada,* you need to be quick and your work needs to look good. If you don't make the company money, you're out.*


The same goes for licensed guys right here...


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> That's pure speculation and you have no proof of that whatsoever. The fact that it's even $150 a year is too much.


It costs less than that here.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Despite physics and studies of what?:blink:


That AFCIs dont do what they claim to. Doesnt matter though, you love them because it means more profit when selling a breaker regardless of whether they are a good value of not.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

fistofbolts said:


> Doesnt work out that way at all. What kind of fantasy land do you live in? What happens is anyone can claim to be a electrician and wages plummet. Come to arizona.


AZ has a similar pay scale to NH. NH has had licensing since 1975.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

It's time for your Mactip Of The Day! 

Solve this electricians license issue, succeed from the United States of America corporation and declare yourselves a ''sovereign citizen''


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> We can all agree on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Going through an apprenticeship isnt the struggle that you claim it is. I also did one much more recently then you. The open book tests arent that hard either.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Going through an apprenticeship isnt the struggle that you claim it is. I also did one much more recently then you. The open book tests arent that hard either.


He has to exaggerate and lie in order to bolster his point. I highly doubt that a good percentage of apprentices are even clean and sober when they go through their apprenticeship, so even under the influence of drugs and alcohol they get through it. At the end of the day, it's just electrical work. Nothing special about it.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Going through an apprenticeship isnt the struggle that you claim it is. I also did one much more recently then you. The open book tests arent that hard either.


Considering you did yours through your family business, I'll bet it was easy...Lucy straws......:yes:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> He has to exaggerate and lie in order to bolster his point. I highly doubt that a good percentage of apprentices are even clean and sober when they go through their apprenticeship, so even under the influence of drugs and alcohol they get through it. At the end of the day, it's just electrical work. Nothing special about it.


Like I said, feel free to run your licenses through the shredder.....:laughing:


----------



## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

MTW said:


> He has to exaggerate and lie in order to bolster his point. I highly doubt that a good percentage of apprentices are even clean and sober when they go through their apprenticeship, so even under the influence of drugs and alcohol they get through it. At the end of the day, it's just electrical work. Nothing special about it.


You real hate this trade and line of work. It certainly seems like it based on your posts on this forum. Our trade doesn't need people like you that pretend to be tradesman.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> You real hate this trade and line of work. It certainly seems like it based on your posts on this forum. Our trade doesn't need people like you that pretend to be tradesman.


Cool story bro.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Despite physics and studies of what?:blink:



Arc faults, residential fires, cable degradation, ect.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> My post was based on my personal experience, no fantasy involved.



I know. I will never understand that mentality where you experience something first hand and others say it isnt so :blink:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> AZ has a similar pay scale to NH. NH has had licensing since 1975.


Yup, the pay scale in Nh is low, seems all the guys up there think that their work is worthless...


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

120/208 said:


> You real hate this trade and line of work. It certainly seems like it based on your posts on this forum. Our trade doesn't need people like you that pretend to be tradesman.



I think he just doesn't like the politics and the system that surround it.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Arc faults, residential fires, cable degradation, ect.


I'm not in favore of AFCI's and when they first talked about them in 1994 I was against them then as well.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> I think he just doesn't like the politics and the system that surround it.


Exactly, but that doesn't seem to stop people from completely misrepresenting my position.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> I think he just doesn't like the politics and the system that surround it.


There are no politics in the licensing system, it has been in place here for 100 years so every electrician knows what he was getting into at the start.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Exactly, but that doesn't seem to stop people from completely misrepresenting my position.



Tell me about it. Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it will work for the whole world. Its kind of like when a child closes his eyes and thinks that no one can see him solely on personal experience.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> There are no politics in the licensing system, it has been in place here for 100 years so every electrician knows what he was getting into at the start.


You're delusional. Everything the government does is political. But go on with these desperate and futile attempts to appear credible.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> There are no politics in the licensing system, it has been in place here for 100 years so every electrician knows what he was getting into at the start.



And so has the NEC, we've seen where that is going...


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> You're delusional. Everything the government does is political. But go on with these desperate and futile attempts to appear credible.


:laughing::laughing::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> :laughing::laughing::sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> And so has the NEC, we've seen where that is going...



The NEC is political it's all lobbyists now, we can all agree on that.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


>


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> The NEC is political it's all lobbyists now, we can all agree on that.


You've finally said something that makes sense in this thread. :thumbsup:


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bkmichael65 said:


> It's not that hard. I jumped the hoops and passed an open book test, but it was probably easier than guys that had to learn the trade on their own. Licensing laws are primarily set up to protect apprenticeship programs that receive billions of dollars in grants from the Department of Labor


 Billions? If you're gonna make stuff up, you might as well say trillions. Billions... geez, training future electricians cost as much as a couple of months at war... How dare the government waste money like that.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Exactly, but that doesn't seem to stop people from completely misrepresenting my position.




Your position is that of inexperienced stupidity don't kid yourself :laughing:


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> Your position is that of inexperienced stupidity don't kid yourself :laughing:


Yes, but what do you really think?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

All this blah, blah, blah over $150.00 in licensing fees? Good god.


----------



## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

99cents said:


> All this blah, blah, blah over $150.00 in licensing fees? Good god.


Some people just like to complain. They like to be heard.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> AZ has a similar pay scale to NH. NH has had licensing since 1975.


Im just talking about the u.s. not canada.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> Im just talking about the u.s. not canada.


I'm pretty sure that both Arizona and New Hampshire are in the United States.


----------



## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Billions? If you're gonna make stuff up, you might as well say trillions. Billions... geez, training future electricians cost as much as a couple of months at war... How dare the government waste money like that.


Read some government budget reports if you don't believe me. In the course of just a year it's several hundred millions of dollars, but you win bonus points for fitting in both your personal astonishment and misdirection into your little fallacious argument.

On a separate note, Harry should take note that most of his support in this matter is coming from his dear Liberal allies. I'm wouldn't be surprised if he's sporting a Hillary bumper sticker by the end of the month :whistling2:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm sure we had a grandfather clause a million years ago but nobody nowadays is complaining about formal apprenticeship and accreditation. If you're complaining about licensing fees, many organizations can charge thousands annually to maintain professional status. $150.00 to the government for an electrician is a pittance. That's like a couple of ham sandwiches a month.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Considering you did yours through your family business, I'll bet it was easy...Lucy straws......:yes:


Of course it was. Everyone knows that workin for family is a breeze, and i just sat around eating bon bons and faking hours. No rules were broken like me running a truck by myself as a 2nd year apprentice, running jobs (when I waaaay shouldnt have been), and my old man's teaching methods were "figure it out yourself, its the only way you'll learn" or "You must have learned that at school."

You are making this far too personal, Harry. I mean Hell, I havent even made any dog punting jokes yet.


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

[/url]via Imgflip Meme Maker[/IMG]


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> Of course it was. Everyone knows that workin for family is a breeze, and i just sat around eating bon bons and faking hours. No rules were broken like me running a truck by myself as a 2nd year apprentice, running jobs (when I waaaay shouldnt have been), and my old man's teaching methods were "figure it out yourself, its the only way you'll learn" or "You must have learned that at school."
> 
> You are making this far too personal, Harry. I mean Hell, I havent even made any dog punting jokes yet.


You make it personal when you say the apprenticeship was easy.



Going_Commando said:


> Going through an apprenticeship isnt the struggle that you claim it is. I also did one much more recently then you. The open book tests arent that hard either.


That makes it very clear you have no clue what it's takes to make it on your own. And your attitude cheapens the electrical trade---Go out and sell the work at top dollar and learn how easy it really is kid.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> INRE Going Commando
> 
> That makes it very clear you have no clue what it's takes to make it on your own. And your attitude cheapens the electrical trade---Go out and sell the work at top dollar and learn how easy it really is kid.


....


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

bkmichael65 said:


> Read some government budget reports if you don't believe me.


I don't. Please direct me to which government budget reports I should be looking at.



> In the course of just a year it's several hundred millions of dollars,


Let's say it was 300 million to qualify your "several hundreds."
Even if it cost 10,000.00 a year to teach ONLY electrical theory to one student (a ridiculous amount by far) there would have to be at least 600 electrical apprentices per state. Many states don't even have 600 electricians let alone 600 apprentices. 



> but you win bonus points for fitting in both your personal astonishment and misdirection into your little fallacious argument.


I donate my points to you Michael, for doubling down on your BS figures. 
You'd even make Trump blush.



> On a separate note, Harry should take note that most of his support in this matter is coming from his dear Liberal allies. I'm wouldn't be surprised if he's sporting a Hillary bumper sticker by the end of the month :whistling2:


Based on whats emanating from the Republican the clown car, who could blame him? At least he knows how to pick a winner .I mean, c'mon. Santorum? Cruz? Jindal?!?!


----------



## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> Many states don't even have 600 electricians let alone 600 apprentices.


:001_huh:

In the tiny state of CT, of the _14,022_ electrical license holders, _774_ of them have the first name of Michael.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Your position is that of inexperienced stupidity don't kid yourself :laughing:


That's the best you can do is say I'm inexperienced and stupid. You can't refute any point I've made so far other than with outright lies, conjecture and exaggeration. But then again, that's typical for you so nothing new here.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> All this blah, blah, blah over $150.00 in licensing fees? Good god.


Are you as dense as Harry is? :001_huh: It's about the principle of being opposed to government regulation.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CTshockhazard said:


> :001_huh:
> 
> In the tiny state of CT, of the _14,022_ electrical license holders, _774_ of them have the first name of Michael.


We're talking about government supported apprenticeships, not licensed electricians.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> Are you as dense as Harry is? :001_huh: It's about the principle of being opposed to government regulation.


 No, I'm not dense. You have a drivers' license, don't you? Are you in favour of eliminating driver's licenses as a point of principle as well?

I see idiot drivers every day. I assume these people all have drivers licenses. Using the arguments presented in this thread, I can say that driver's licenses should be abolished because they don't eliminate bad driving and renewal fees are just an excuse by the government to steal our money.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> That's the best you can do is say I'm inexperienced and stupid. You can't refute any point I've made so far other than with outright lies, conjecture and exaggeration. But then again, that's typical for you so nothing new here.


That's funny I have refuted everyone of your points, try reading my posts 
S L O W L Y........:laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Are you as dense as Harry is? :001_huh: *It's about the principle of being opposed to government regulation.*


No one forced you to get into a trade that has been regulated for over 100 years. If you do not like the rules, then just get out already, because the rules will not be changing anytime soon.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> No one forced you to get into a trade that has been regulated for over 100 years. If you do not like the rules, then just get out already, because the rules will not be changing anytime soon.


Buddy, your are absolutely wrong. :no:

We change the Code every 36 months hereabouts. :laughing:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm still trying to figure out what a dribbling idiot is. Something to do with basketball?


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> Buddy, your are absolutely wrong. :no:
> 
> We change the Code every 36 months hereabouts. :laughing:


True that, What was I thinking:blink::laughing::laughing:


----------



## mapmd (Oct 26, 2014)

Dan the electricman said:


> I'd prefer to have someone who has worked under a journeyman for 8000 hours, taken 1000 hours of classroom training, and passed a test, do electrical work, over someone who thinks 2 wires from a switch to a fixtures, in free air, with no protection, is acceptable.
> 
> Even better would be additional mandatory field tests (conduit install, wire size calculation, grounding, devicing, terminations, code) yearly.
> 
> No licensing would result in more fires, shocks, possible electrocutions, and eroding trade reputation. That's my opinion.


On the other hand 7 year olds don't need a government permit in order to run a lemonade stand. 

Those of us with common sense need to decide what's pertinent and always figure out where the good middle ground is.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

mapmd said:


> On the other hand 7 year olds don't need a government permit in order to run a lemonade stand.
> 
> Those of us with common sense need to decide what's pertinent and always figure out where the good middle ground is.


Yes they do...http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inspectors-shut-down-girls-lemonade-stand/

:blink::blink:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> The NEC is political it's all lobbyists now, we can all agree on that.



And if I said that 20 years ago Im sure you would say "so your saying we should ditch codes altogether because you think the NEC is becoming unreasonable"


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> You make it personal when you say the apprenticeship was easy.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes it very clear you have no clue what it's takes to make it on your own. And your attitude cheapens the electrical trade---Go out and sell the work at top dollar and learn how easy it really is kid.



I think you are in fact taking this as a personnel insult (its not) which would explain why you refuse to see MTW's point of view.


----------



## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

So with all the bashing and name calling aside. What is the solution? No licenses? Let anyone do electrical work who decides they are an electrician? 
Im not busting balls. Im just curious. 
Living and working in mass my whole career, ive always known there are unlicensed guys doing electrical work. 
It never bothers me though. I know im on the up and up. I can pull permits, and have my work inspected, and it is covered by my insurance policy. 
What is being suggested throws all that out the window. 
I do realize there are quite a few states who do not issue licenses. And maybe they are fine. 
I tend to think that may have alot to do with sparce poplutauon density. Issuing and enforcing licenses may not hold much water. 
Where as in mass each city and town ( for the most part) 
Has its own wiring inspector. 
They may not always stop unlicensed guys from working. But there are quite a few cases where fines are issued. Etc. 
And let me clarify to those guys who are nkt familiar with the licensing process here . Its now 600 class room hours, and 8000 ojt work hours. 
Basically a 4 year program. Then you have to present the documentation to the board of examiners before setting up your exam. The exam is 2 parts and is open book. 
Some breeze through it. it can be challenging though. 

So after passing the test you are now a journeyman. 
Which basically means you can work alone, or with 1 apprentice. 
It doesnt magically make you a genius. Or have all knowing electrical powers. That comes with experience. 
The real benefit is the license weeds out some fly by nighters. 
Not all. 
But there us some sense of accomishment by earning your ticket. It is not just a fee. 
Then you must keep up with your code updates every 3 years. 
So all in all. I would say a licensed guy here should be considered more qualified than a non licensed guy. There is merit to having that piece of paper. 
Additionally when you apply fkr permits you must submit insurance coverage, and workers comp coverage . 
So by not having that license you have elininated yourself from a large percentage of work . 
Just my 02


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> I think you are in fact taking this as a personnel insult (its not) which would explain why you refuse to see MTW's point of view.


Pete had an easy apprenticeship during the busiest times so he really does not appreciate all the hard work and hard times others had to go through.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Pete had an easy apprenticeship during the busiest times so he really does not appreciate all the hard work and hard times others had to go through.



Yeah, I am so impressed that pot heads and boozers can sit through a class, get a passing grade because they paid for the class, and then show up to work hung over and put troffers in all day long, and then get a license after 4 years. Wow...knock me over with a feather.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Yeah, I am so impressed that pot heads and boozers can sit through a class, get a passing grade because they paid for the class, and then show up to work hung over and put troffers in all day long, and then get a license after 4 years. Wow...knock me over with a feather.


That must be a problem in your state, that chit don't fly here.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm still trying to figure out what this word "hack" means. As far as I can tell, it's substandard work compared to your own standards. How do you regulate THAT?

Let me tell you, we are all hacks (at least I know I am). Some days I am rushed on a job. Sometimes I have the wrong tools or material. Sometimes the supplier can't give me what I want. Sometimes the simple geometry of a job says I have to patch it together. Sometimes I'm just too lazy to take another walk to the truck.

I am also a licensed Master Electrician. Go ahead, bust my balls.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Pete had an easy apprenticeship during the busiest times so he really does not appreciate all the hard work and hard times others had to go through.



I disagree. I think Peter has an open mind and sees it for what it is. If Peter had those views during his apprenticeship I can assure you his was by far the most difficult.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> That must be a problem in your state, that chit don't fly here.


Yeah, ok. :laughing: It's all Harvard level electricians in Massachusetts. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

I'll remind you that I used to work for a large Mass. based contractor and saw it first hand.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> I disagree. I think Peter has an open mind and sees it for what it is.


Yes, and questioning accepted norms is not acceptable. You must conform. 



> If Peter had those views during his apprenticeship I can assure you his was by far the most difficult.


Back then I just didn't know or care much about the licensing system, other than it was something I had to get through to get a license. Now that I'm older and wiser, I can see it for the scam that it is.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Yeah, ok. :laughing: It's all Harvard level electricians in Massachusetts. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> I'll remind you that I used to work for a large Mass. based contractor and saw it first hand.


Great, I cannot control what an owner tolerates....


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Great, I cannot control what an owner tolerates....


But you said it doesn't fly where it clearly does.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> No, I'm not dense. You have a drivers' license, don't you? Are you in favour of eliminating driver's licenses as a point of principle as well?
> 
> I see idiot drivers every day. I assume these people all have drivers licenses. Using the arguments presented in this thread, I can say that driver's licenses should be abolished because they don't eliminate bad driving and renewal fees are just an excuse by the government to steal our money.


The government is giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens now in many states, so yes, they might as well abolish the driver's license. 

But to your point, as long as someone has insurance I don't care if they have a driver's license or not, because as you point out, it says nothing about their driving ability (or lack thereof.) It's merely a permission slip. I do believe in harsh penalties for drunk or reckless driving.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> That's funny I have refuted everyone of your points, try reading my posts
> S L O W L Y........:laughing:


All you've offered up is lies, exaggeration and speculation like you usually do. 



Black Dog said:


> No one forced you to get into a trade that has been regulated for over 100 years. If you do not like the rules, then just get out already, because the rules will not be changing anytime soon.


First of all, it's only been regulated in Mass. for 100 years. It's entirely different in other states. Many states have little to no regulation over the electrical trade. Even massive California only started licensing about 10-15 years ago. 

Secondly, I have every right to question established norms. You simply don't like that I'm questioning them because you're used to being protected by Big Brother, so that's why you've singled me out.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> > Yes, and questioning accepted norms is not acceptable. You must conform.
> 
> 
> Hence why the powers that be lobby every aspect of education down to what tie the teacher/instructor wears.
> ...


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jrannis said:


> One word.
> Florida.
> The Latin Builders Association lobbied to abolish journeyman licensing requirements for contractors holding State Certified licenses.
> They got it. Wages plummeted. They then worked down the Prevailing wage rates by averaging helper and journeyman skilled labor rates.
> ...



Yet you're still in Florida. Must not be all that bad then. You can always move to New England. We have lots of licenses and fees, and lots of Latin Americans too.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Meanwhile in paradise, it is truly a lovely Sunday morning, soft breeze blowing, light rain going on, the heat wave has broken up at least for a day or two now.
Tomorrow, I am going to take full advantage of being a licensed Electrical Contractor and fill my station wagon up with money, so much that it will be leaking out thru the gaps in the roll down windows to alleviate the summer.
Hope you fellers are enjoying your discussion about whether it is a good thing or not, me, I ain't got the time for that, there are still some market segments I have not completely exploited to the limit yet. Kowabunga


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Meanwhile in paradise, it is truly a lovely Sunday morning, soft breeze blowing, light rain going on, the heat wave has broken up at least for a day or two now.
> Tomorrow, I am going to take full advantage of being a licensed Electrical Contractor and fill my station wagon up with money, so much that it will be leaking out thru the gaps in the roll down windows to alleviate the summer.
> Hope you fellers are enjoying your discussion about whether it is a good thing or not, me, I ain't got the time for that, there are still some market segments I have not completely exploited to the limit yet. Kowabunga


Another guy who complains about the over reach of the government all the time, but when it helps you out, you have nothing to say.


----------



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Harry, I think you're actually proving Pete's point with your argument. 

You struggled, busted your @$$, stayed up late, worked weekends, did whatever it took to get your license, while you say others had it handed to them. 

It only proves that both made it through the licensing process and does not guarantee anything.

One could be a fine electrician and businessman, while the other could be a lazy good for nothing hack. 

....but not necessarily. :whistling2:

To the OP, to what degree should our trade be deregulated? Just tradesmen? The code abolished? No insurance required? Manufacturers?

I agree that the NEC is out of control and that a lot of municipalities are ridiculous with their requirements. However, I believe there has to be a minimum standard for the sake of accountability.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> Another guy who complains about the over reach of the *FEDERAL* government all the time, but when it helps you out, you have nothing to say.




fify.





Local government controls my license. I am 1000000% behind local government, provided they root out the infiltrators from federal and united nations new world order rotten satanic worshipers from the ranks.


----------



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> fify.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that's my point. Local government is made of those who live and work in that area, and if they want to enforce standards for the trades then then so be it.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> But you said it doesn't fly where it clearly does.


No Your just full of it as usual.:no:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Barjack said:


> Harry, I think you're actually proving Pete's point with your argument.
> To the OP, to what degree should our trade be deregulated? Just tradesmen? The code abolished? No insurance required? Manufacturers?


I'm glad you asked. Most people assume that I'm against all standards for electricians completely, and nothing could be further from the truth. The IBEW does a very good job of marketing itself based on its apprenticeship that goes above and beyond most, if not all, state apprenticeship requirements. The non-union trade groups have their own apprenticeships as well. I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to this, which is what a license is. Everyone has different abilities and skills and should be treated accordingly. Some are happy to rope houses and trim out, others thrive on motors and control work, still others excel at commercial. Still others are self taught, never went through formal apprenticeship and are very skilled and knowledgable. 

I believe anyone that engages in contracting work should have insurance and that we should have some standards of installation, like the NEC (minus AFCI's, of course.) 



> I agree that the NEC is out of control and that a lot of municipalities are ridiculous with their requirements. However, I believe there has to be a minimum standard for the sake of accountability.


I agree, but as you live in Florida where there is no individual journeyman license required to work as an employee, wouldn't you say it's working just fine? I don't see plumes of smoke rising from many houses on fire when I visit there, so it can't be all that bad.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> fify.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's never going to happen.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> All you've offered up is lies, exaggeration and speculation like you usually do.


 Again your feminine side is coming out talking like that.





MTW said:


> First of all, it's only been regulated in Mass. for 100 years. It's entirely different in other states. Many states have little to no regulation over the electrical trade. Even massive California only started licensing about 10-15 years ago.
> 
> Secondly, I have every right to question established norms. You simply don't like that I'm questioning them because you're used to being protected by Big Brother, so that's why you've singled me out.


1942 in RI.... http://www.ckelectricri.com/History/LicenseArticle.pdf


I've singled you out because you started this thread knowing you would get a fight over it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> 1942 in RI.... http://www.ckelectricri.com/History/LicenseArticle.pdf


So what? There are plenty of people who got their license because they paid for one with money in brown paper bag. Up until about 25 years ago it was only a 2 year apprenticeship, and before that, you could buy your license at the supply house just like a fishing license.


----------



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MTW said:


> I agree, but as you live in Florida where there is no individual journeyman license required to work as an employee, wouldn't you say it's working just fine? I don't see plumes of smoke rising from many houses on fire when I visit there, so it can't be all that bad.


You obviously haven't seen my work. :jester:

The business owner (EC or ER) is required to have a state license and insurance though.

I agree with you about the licensing, but I do think insurance should be required no matter what. It at least guarantees a legal route should the worst happen.

I am absolutely for local municipalities making their own decisions on standards and legally being allowed to require a license and/or insurance for electrical work. It's their community.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm glad you asked. Most people assume that I'm against all standards for electricians completely, and nothing could be further from the truth. The IBEW does a very good job of marketing itself based on its apprenticeship that goes above and beyond most, if not all, state apprenticeship requirements. The non-union trade groups have their own apprenticeships as well. I don't think there is a "one size fits all" answer to this, which is what a license is. Everyone has different abilities and skills and should be treated accordingly. Some are happy to rope houses and trim out, others thrive on motors and control work, still others excel at commercial. Still others are self taught, never went through formal apprenticeship and are very skilled and knowledgable.
> 
> I believe anyone that engages in contracting work should have insurance and that we should have some standards of installation, like the NEC (minus AFCI's, of course.)
> 
> ...


:whistling2:


jrannis said:


> One word.
> Florida.
> The Latin Builders Association lobbied to abolish journeyman licensing requirements for contractors holding State Certified licenses.
> They got it. Wages plummeted. They then worked down the Prevailing wage rates by averaging helper and journeyman skilled labor rates.
> ...


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Licensing is never the answer, inspections are. But only if performed by persons who have extensive hands-on experience using a code that is written by highly experienced persons, never by persons with written credentials. 

And most certainly never where corporate profit through legislation is involved.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> Licensing is never the answer, inspections are. But only if performed by persons who have extensive hands-on experience using a code that is written by highly experienced persons, never by persons with written credentials.
> 
> And most certainly never where corporate profit through legislation is involved.


That pretty much entirely disqualifies the system we have in place right now.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> That pretty much entirely disqualifies the system we have in place right now.



The system needs to be overhauled.


----------



## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

jrannis said:


> One word.
> 
> Florida.
> 
> ...



Is there a link to this?


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> That pretty much entirely disqualifies the system we have in place right now.


Yes it does. I'd bet that a fairly large majority of persons who deal with the present system would agree that it is a LONG way from ideal.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> The system needs to be overhauled.


True...a serious MAJOR overhaul.......


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

micromind said:


> True...a serious MAJOR overhaul.......


You are correct. Tougher licensing requirements would be a good start.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

micromind said:


> True...a serious MAJOR overhaul.......


I slept at a Holiday Inn last night, I'll give it a try!


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

My complaint is this. I only do LV and personally, I'm frightened whenever I hear an electrician worked on an LV system. Some know how to but many don't. There is a lot more than hooking up wires when dealing with home automation, home theater, distributed video, and networks. I think we need 2 licenses that are equal (meaning neither is grandfathered by the other). We need a series of electrical -as we have now, and we need a LV license which ensures the person truly knows what he is going. Of course NEC applies to both.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Wired4Life10 said:


> My complaint is this. I only do LV and personally, I'm frightened whenever I hear an electrician worked on an LV system. Some know how to but many don't. There is a lot more than hooking up wires when dealing with home automation, home theater, distributed video, and networks. I think we need 2 licenses that are equal (meaning neither is grandfathered by the other). We need a series of electrical -as we have now, and we need a LV license which ensures the person truly knows what he is going. Of course NEC applies to both.


:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Wired4Life10 said:


> My complaint is this. I only do LV and personally, I'm frightened whenever I hear an electrician worked on an LV system. Some know how to but many don't. There is a lot more than hooking up wires when dealing with home automation, home theater, distributed video, and networks. I think we need 2 licenses that are equal (meaning neither is grandfathered by the other). We need a series of electrical -as we have now, and we need a LV license which ensures the person truly knows what he is going. Of course NEC applies to both.


Agreed, the LV license should be class super A.......:thumbup::laughing:


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

Considering the LV would cover life safety, it should be equal to a journeyman, if not master. And electricians not be allowed to touch fire alarms without proper independent licensing from standard licensing. I've known too many electricians who had no clue how to make a network cable to meet standards and had no idea of the limitations of Cat5e. If they can't grasp those concepts, I don't want them touching a system that could save my life in the event of a fire or other.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

LV is classified as anything under 1000 volts, so Im good :laughing::jester:


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Wired4Life10 said:


> Considering the LV would cover life safety, it should be equal to a journeyman, if not master. And electricians not be allowed to touch fire alarms without proper independent licensing from standard licensing. I've known too many electricians who had no clue how to make a network cable to meet standards and had no idea of the limitations of Cat5e. If they can't grasp those concepts, I don't want them touching a system that could save my life in the event of a fire or other.


There are independent organizations that cater to that market(EIA/TIA, BICSI, manufacturers). However, the NEC doesn't care about how fast your cat5e is, it's only concern is that it doesn't catch fire. It really doesn't take much to punch the blue pair onto a jack and give someone an analog phone. In fact I've seen more hack work from low voltage guys than I have from electricians. If you saw an electrican install hack LV work, chances are he does hack electrical work too. I'm not putting the LV stuff down, but it's a 2 year license in most states, while a journeyman is at least 4.


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## Wired4Life10 (Jul 9, 2011)

Some states, like mine, do not require a license for LV but the problem I'm seeing is they are looking to grandfather electricians into it when I've seen more hack surveillance camera jobs done by electricians than homeowners.


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

I think that lack of licensing has brought about this cash grab greedy 3rd party certification system. I think that 3rd parties see the lack of qualified installers and set out to promote a system of best practices and provide "qualified technicians for their systems. Look at 3M, Raychem, TE, BICSI, NCSCB, NETA, Commscope, Fluke, etc etc. unfortunately these types of certifications have become the real cash gargling programs that these guys are afraid a nation wide licensing program would become. Instead of just a single license stating that I'm qualified, I have to pay hundreds a year to keep certifications and CECs up just so I can do my work. My journeymans license is the cheapest one I've got and actually requires code updates and NFPA-70E every 3 years. Things I actually use, not some sales pitch for their newest crap. Way back before any of this was a big deal, and the IBEW had a majority of the market share, you had a ticket with your classification on it, and you were qualified to perform all aspects of your craft, be it Lineman, Wireman, Cable Splicer, or telecomm, and the way they regulated members from jumping to another classification is by time required and journeyman tests for the craft. If you couldn't hang a cross arm you weren't a lineman if you couldn't wipe a lead splice, you weren't gonna be splicing, you couldn't wire a motor starter, you weren't going to be doing inside work. Plain and simple. These guys realized the need for a clear cut journey level test in a time when anyone could claim to be a tradesman.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

If having a license means code compliant workmanship, why do we have inspections?

If having a license indicates an acceptable level of competence, why do we have inspections? 

Seems to me that where a license is required, inspections would be unnecessary.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

micromind said:


> If having a license means code compliant workmanship, why do we have inspections?
> 
> If having a license indicates an acceptable level of competence, why do we have inspections?
> 
> Seems to me that where a license is required, inspections would be unnecessary.


Well, that would certainly get the traffic cops off their beats. :thumbsup:

Instead, those fellas keep handing out citations and correction notices. 

The nerve! 

After all, *I'm* licensed. :laughing:


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Folks, we're arguing at cross purposes here.

The real solution is to put MTW in charge of issuing licenses.

Finally, only the right people, the right kind of people, those whose skills meet MTW's standard, will receive the government's stamp of approval.

He will certainly recognize those worthy and those not.

So, every other metric, test, and affirmation can be set aside. 

I nominate MTW for skills auditor -- and dean of licenses -- gatekeeper to our craft.

The current masters of certification and licensing plainly don't know how to do things right.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's a symbiant relationship Micro, one would not exist w/o the other.

That said, i have no compunction over allowing AHJ's to rule , assuming as you say, an unbiased approach. 

In fact, lets elevate that to mandatory _(imagine an AHJ army for sake of argument)_ , DIY's, Homeowners ,sparks, handymen, all on the same AHJ page.

Allow them dominion and control of Home Depot, Lowes NEC, NEMA,NECA,UL,CSPC, moderation of pro forums, etc....

Can U see the full circle end result i'm trying to paint here?

~CS~


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

telsa said:


> Folks, we're arguing at cross purposes here.
> 
> The real solution is to put MTW in charge of issuing licenses.
> 
> ...


He's just pissed because he cannot pass the test in mass so he cannot work here unless a real licensed guy is with him......:thumbup::laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> You are correct. Tougher licensing requirements would be a good start.



Chris1971 aka Troll1971 has spoken


----------



## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

Lets say your building a house or a garage or a skyscraper, what business is it of the government? If you are using your own money you have an interest in it. If the banks they have an interest. If you and your banker are smart you will have insurance on it. These are the people who are responsible for making sure the wiring in your building is safe. I am sick of people using the police power of government to rob me. Do an honest days work for an honest days pay and stop passing laws that allow you to live at the expense of others.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> He's just pissed because he cannot pass the test in mass so he cannot work here unless a real licensed guy is with him......:thumbup::laughing:


What a surprise, Harry is lying about me yet again. 

I have never taken the Mass test. I worked for a Mass. based contractor and worked there for over a year and never had a license for one second, nor do I intend to get one.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> If having a license means code compliant workmanship, why do we have inspections?
> 
> If having a license indicates an acceptable level of competence, why do we have inspections?
> 
> Seems to me that where a license is required, inspections would be unnecessary.


The licensing system is tough and it produces top-notch, well qualified and well rounded electricians. Just ask Harry.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

Galt said:


> Lets say your building a house or a garage or a skyscraper, what business is it of the government? If you are using your own money you have an interest in it. If the banks they have an interest. If you and your banker are smart you will have insurance on it. These are the people who are responsible for making sure the wiring in your building is safe. I am sick of people using the police power of government to rob me. Do an honest days work for an honest days pay and stop passing laws that allow you to live at the expense of others.


Exactly, but the nec was made primarily for the insurance companies because they were unwilling to pay out without standards in place. Insurance companies are to blame for all this policing business. Well partly to blame. Im sure they filled many a senators pockets to get it all done how they wanted.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> What a surprise, Harry is lying about me yet again.
> 
> I have never taken the Mass test. I worked for a Mass. based contractor and worked there for over a year and never had a license for one second, nor do I intend to get one.


I take My Coffee Black with no Bull Chit Punk! 














:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> What a surprise, Harry is lying about me yet again.
> 
> I have never taken the Mass test. I worked for a Mass. based contractor and worked there for over a year and never had a license for one second, nor do I intend to get one.


BTW I did not lie about the fact that you're just a helper here....:laughing:


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

IDK....

I've been at this for nearly 20 years. I've done just about every aspect of electrical work out there. I study on a regular basis, take classes when they are good and relevant, and have passed every teste I've ever taken.

I didn't go completely through a federally approved apprenticeship though. For that reason states like Oregon deem me unqualified to even sit for the exams. 

Couple that with all of the morons I come in after, yes the licensed ones, you do begin to question what the hell it is all for.... Lining the back pockets, not public protection.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

99cents said:


> No, I'm not dense. You have a drivers' license, don't you? Are you in favour of eliminating driver's licenses as a point of principle as well?
> 
> I see idiot drivers every day. I assume these people all have drivers licenses. Using the arguments presented in this thread, I can say that driver's licenses should be abolished because they don't eliminate bad driving and renewal fees are just an excuse by the government to steal our money.


It's that typical right-wing/libertarian not-so-logical logic argument. Rape should be legal too, because it doesn't stop all rapes.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> The government is giving drivers licenses to illegal aliens now in many states, so yes, they might as well abolish the driver's license.


The government is issuing licenses to those already with licenses from other countries, who pass the written exam. 

Not for nothing, but if you know how to drive in a foreign country, I'm pretty sure the laws of physics are the same here.


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

MTW said:


> I have never taken the Mass test. I worked for a Mass. based contractor and worked there for over a year and never had a license for one second, nor do I intend to get one.


What makes you better than the rest of us? Are you above the law? Why is it okay for you to do whatever you want, yet other people have to take expensive study courses, pay application, testing and licensing fees just to watch someone with no respect for the rules show up and do their work? That's not right and certainly nothing to be proud of. 

I dislike the licencing system in my state. It's broken and poorly enforced. But that doesn't mean I ignore it. I follow the rules to the best of my ability even though I disagree with them. That's reality. 

If you don't like the way something is being done, than do what you can to change it. But if you come to a state that has licensing requirements and are doing journey or master level work without one, you are taking money from people that have worked much harder than you to be able to do that work. And that, IMO is stealing.


----------



## MXer774 (Sep 1, 2014)

This ****** up thread needs a license to continue. 20 pages of this junk.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Wired4Life10 said:


> My complaint is this. I only do LV and personally, I'm frightened whenever I hear an electrician worked on an LV system. Some know how to but many don't. There is a lot more than hooking up wires when dealing with home automation, home theater, distributed video, and networks. I think we need 2 licenses that are equal (meaning neither is grandfathered by the other). We need a series of electrical -as we have now, and we need a LV license which ensures the person truly knows what he is going. Of course NEC applies to both.


What's so hard about plug and play? My wife could do that!


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

MTW said:


> What a surprise, Harry is lying about me yet again.
> 
> I have never taken the Mass test. I worked for a Mass. based contractor and worked there for over a year and never had a license for one second, nor do I intend to get one.


So you're not only a hack, you're an unlicensed hack!


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

telsa said:


> Folks, we're arguing at cross purposes here.
> 
> The real solution is to put MTW in charge of issuing licenses.
> 
> ...



I nominate MTW to the CMP of a real no BS NEC. :thumbsup:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> It's that typical right-wing/libertarian not-so-logical logic argument. Rape should be legal too, because it doesn't stop all rapes.



No, but drug addiction should be treated as a medical condition, not as a criminal act.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Mountain Electrician said:


> What makes you better than the rest of us? Are you above the law? Why is it okay for you to do whatever you want, yet other people have to take expensive study courses, pay application, testing and licensing fees just to watch someone with no respect for the rules show up and do their work? That's not right and certainly nothing to be proud of.
> 
> I dislike the licencing system in my state. It's broken and poorly enforced. But that doesn't mean I ignore it. I follow the rules to the best of my ability even though I disagree with them. That's reality.
> 
> If you don't like the way something is being done, than do what you can to change it. But if you come to a state that has licensing requirements and are doing journey or master level work without one, you are taking money from people that have worked much harder than you to be able to do that work. And that, IMO is stealing.



Perfect example of assumption and beating others into compliance. :no: For one MTW never said he had no respect for rules or was somehow better then you.


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

meadow said:


> Perfect example of assumption and beating others into compliance. :no: For one MTW never said he had no respect for rules or was somehow better then you.


Yes he did, he said he was doing electrical work in a state that requires licensing without a license and had no intention of getting one to do further electrical work. By saying that, there's no assumption on my part...he has stated he has no respect for Massachusetts' rules, nor feels they apply to him. Logically, he must feel he's better than us if the rules don't apply.

You don't have to like or respect the law, but you have to follow it. Or change it. You think by doing that he's "sticking it to the man"? He's not, he's just sticking it to his fellow electricians who follow the rules. If expecting someone to follow the same rules we all do is beating them into compliance than I need a bigger stick. I would call the inspector on an unlicensed electrician in a heartbeat. Again.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Another guy who complains about the over reach of the government all the time, but when it helps you out, you have nothing to say.


Spoken like a true liberal.......:laughing:


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

After reading some of this.... 

Now I know why I don't visit here much anymore.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Spoken like a true liberal.......:laughing:


I dont think you even understand the difference between liberal and conservative anymore. You are just a confused old man that doesnt even understand when you're being a hypocrit.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Mountain Electrician said:


> Yes he did, he said he was doing electrical work in a state that requires licensing without a license and had no intention of getting one to do further electrical work. By saying that, there's no assumption on my part...he has stated he has no respect for Massachusetts' rules, nor feels they apply to him. Logically, he must feel he's better than us if the rules don't apply.


I carry two state electrical contractor licenses in the states I normally work in. I rarely work in Mass. anymore so there is no need for me to have a MA license. Down here in southern New England, trades people regularly move between MA, RI, and CT and I can assure you they don't always have a license in those states when they do. 



> You don't have to like or respect the law, but you have to follow it. Or change it. You think by doing that he's "sticking it to the man"? He's not, he's just sticking it to his fellow electricians who follow the rules.


Lol, yeah, that's it. I don't worry about what other electricians do and I'm certain they aren't worried about me either. 




> If expecting someone to follow the same rules we all do is beating them into compliance than I need a bigger stick. I would call the inspector on an unlicensed electrician in a heartbeat. Again.



That's something I would never do. But if it makes you feel all high and mighty and that you're saving the world somehow, knock your socks off.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> BTW I did not lie about the fact that you're just a helper here....:laughing:


I don't work for a Mass. contractor, so what's your point exactly? Other than it being nonsensical rambling.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Spoken like a true liberal.......:laughing:


When you say things like this, I actually have to wonder if you have brain damage or some kind of disorder that prevents you from thinking logically. Like G.C. said, I don't think you even know what you're talking about.


----------



## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Magnettica said:


> After reading some of this....
> 
> Now I know why I don't visit here much anymore.


Agree!!!!


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> Agree!!!!


Chris, you can always leave and go back to using your old identity again.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> After reading some of this....
> 
> Now I know why I don't visit here much anymore.


Cool. Nobody is forcing you to stay.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Galt said:


> Lets say your building a house or a garage or a skyscraper, what business is it of the government? If you are using your own money you have an interest in it. If the banks they have an interest. If you and your banker are smart you will have insurance on it. These are the people who are responsible for making sure the wiring in your building is safe. I am sick of people using the police power of government to rob me. Do an honest days work for an honest days pay and stop passing laws that allow you to live at the expense of others.


Exactly. Excellent summation. :thumbsup: The pro-license people simply can't fathom that this is what it's all about.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I dont think you even understand the difference between liberal and conservative anymore. You are just a confused old man that doesnt even understand when you're being a hypocrit.


Yes I understand the difference----it's Hypocrite not hypocrit---Stupid:laughing:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Galt said:


> Lets say your building a house or a garage or a skyscraper, what business is it of the government? If you are using your own money you have an interest in it. If the banks they have an interest. If you and your banker are smart you will have insurance on it. These are the people who are responsible for making sure the wiring in your building is safe. I am sick of people using the police power of government to rob me. Do an honest days work for an honest days pay and *stop passing laws that allow you to live at the expense of others.*


 What law is that?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My dad can beat up your dad.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Reading threads like this makes me happy I left high school.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Mountain Electrician said:


> > Yes he did, he said he was doing electrical work in a state that requires licensing without a license and had no intention of getting one to do further electrical work. By saying that, there's no assumption on my part...he has stated he has no respect for Massachusetts' rules, nor feels they apply to him. Logically, he must feel he's better than us if the rules don't apply.
> 
> 
> Doesn't mean he is violating code or creating a dangerous situation.
> ...


----------



## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

To qualify in New Jersey for a license/business permit is pretty tough. I had a buddy who moved to the midwest and wanted to transfer his license to the new location without taking another 7 1/2 hr exam. If every state required the same exam and experience,it would allow electrical contractors to for example,to move from one state to another and continue their trade,without going through that whole exam process all over again.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Reading threads like this makes me happy I left high school.


What's High School?:blink: :jester::laughing:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> What's High School?:blink: :jester::laughing:



The final phase of government mandated legalized child abuse :laughing::jester:


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I think at one point we were having a reasonable discussion, but I feel like i'm reading Encyclopedia Dildonica now.


----------



## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

meadow said:


> The only way things will ever change is if people stand up for what right rather then blindly following rules and orders without knowing what they mean as they go around policing the entire planet. Beating people in compliance just brings down another human being along with yourself. Our society is built on that and somehow we have the highest prison population in the world while still having some of the highest recidivism crime rates. Obviously its not working.


I certainly agree that the states that I've been licensed in have deeply flawed systems. Yet they are the systems that are in place, and as a small electrical contractor I have to follow them to make a living. It's nice to have an ideological discussion (minus the name calling) about trade licensing, and I agree in theory with much of what's been said. But when I'm done typing this I'm jumping in the shower, then getting in my truck and driving out into the real world to make money to feed my family. I'm not blindly following rules, I'm trying to pay my mortgage. 


I'd love for things to be different, but they aren't. I also think this was a interesting post that got way off track, and I apologize to everyone for any part I had in that.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Mountain Electrician said:


> I certainly agree that the states that I've been licensed in have deeply flawed systems. Yet they are the systems that are in place, and as a small electrical contractor I have to follow them to make a living. It's nice to have an ideological discussion (minus the name calling) about trade licensing, and I agree in theory with much of what's been said. But when I'm done typing this I'm jumping in the shower, then getting in my truck and driving out into the real world to make money to feed my family. I'm not blindly following rules, I'm trying to pay my mortgage.
> 
> 
> I'd love for things to be different, but they aren't. I also think this was a interesting post that got way off track, and I apologize to everyone for any part I had in that.


 You didn't turn this into a pi$$ing contest. These guys might be good electricians but, if I had to work with them, I would be done after a day. There's a time to shut up and keep your opinions to yourself and some guys just don't get it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> You didn't turn this into a pi$$ing contest. These guys might be good electricians but, if I had to work with them, I would be done after a day. There's a time to shut up and keep your opinions to yourself and some guys just don't get it.


Seriously, get off your high horse. In case you forgot, this is a discussion forum, not the job site.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> The final phase of government mandated legalized child abuse :laughing::jester:


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Mountain Electrician said:


> I certainly agree that the states that I've been licensed in have deeply flawed systems. Yet they are the systems that are in place, and as a small electrical contractor I have to follow them to make a living. It's nice to have an ideological discussion (minus the name calling) about trade licensing, and I agree in theory with much of what's been said. But when I'm done typing this I'm jumping in the shower, then getting in my truck and driving out into the real world to make money to feed my family. I'm not blindly following rules, I'm trying to pay my mortgage.
> 
> 
> I'd love for things to be different, but they aren't. I also think this was a interesting post that got way off track, and I apologize to everyone for any part I had in that.



Dont worry, none of what you posted is off track. 

I respect that you are working, but in the case of MTW he should be allowed to work to his own beat. Lets face it, every job you walk into, where is the proof a licensed or unlicensed guy did it?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> :laughing::laughing::thumbup:



I could take that one of two ways :laughing::jester:


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## billn (Aug 31, 2011)

In my distant youth, when I first tried to get into classes for electrician training, I was told that I had to be accepted into an apprenticeship program. To get into a program, I had to find a sponsoring employer through the local union. When I contacted the union, I was told that applications were closed for the year and no more would be accepted until sometime the following year. They also stated that most likely very few new applications would be accepted. In essence, it appeared to me that the union was controlling the number of people that could get training - in other words, limiting the possible competition to ensure there would not be any serious competition for jobs. That is my biggest beef with the current system. The apprenticeship program is controlled by one special interest or another and none of them seem to be interested in trying to see that all those with aptitude have a chance to get training. A few years later, several tech industries moved to the area, starting a housing boom, and the apprenticeship program opened up.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

billn said:


> In my distant youth, when I first tried to get into classes for electrician training, I was told that I had to be accepted into an apprenticeship program. To get into a program, I had to find a sponsoring employer through the local union. When I contacted the union, I was told that applications were closed for the year and no more would be accepted until sometime the following year. They also stated that most likely very few new applications would be accepted. In essence, it appeared to me that the union was controlling the number of people that could get training - in other words, limiting the possible competition to ensure there would not be any serious competition for jobs. That is my biggest beef with the current system. The apprenticeship program is controlled by one special interest or another and none of them seem to be interested in trying to see that all those with aptitude have a chance to get training. A few years later, several tech industries moved to the area, starting a housing boom, and the apprenticeship program opened up.


Having never been an apprentice, I didn't realize there was such a 'buddy system'. 

Yet another drawback to forced licensing.........


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

:sleep1::yawn:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> Having never been an apprentice, I didn't realize there was such a 'buddy system'.
> 
> Yet another drawback to forced licensing.........


Licensing allows slackers and hacks to survive in the trade because they are protected from competition simply because they have their nanny state permission slip aka license.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have bid and won some multimillion dollar public works jobs before and sailed all the way thru completion. They all required a c-13 electrical contractors license. Now that did not eliminate all the competition, but it sure helps keep the crowd down. I thank the good Lord for that fact, and Peter, I hope you enjoy your poverty.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Licensing allows slackers and hacks to survive in the trade because they are protected from competition simply because they have their nanny state permission slip aka license.


:sleep1::yawn:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Licensing allows slackers and hacks to survive in the trade because they are protected from competition simply because they have their nanny state permission slip aka license.


What competition is that?---losers who can't overcome a little obstacle in life :laughing::thumbup:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I have bid and won some multimillion dollar public works jobs before and sailed all the way thru completion. They all required a c-13 electrical contractors license. Now that did not eliminate all the competition, but it sure helps keep the crowd down. I thank the good Lord for that fact, and Peter, I hope you enjoy your poverty.


Mom's house....:laughing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEnKLhi83J8


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

billn said:


> In my distant youth, when I first tried to get into classes for electrician training, I was told that I had to be accepted into an apprenticeship program. To get into a program, I had to find a sponsoring employer through the local union. When I contacted the union, I was told that applications were closed for the year and no more would be accepted until sometime the following year. They also stated that most likely very few new applications would be accepted. In essence, it appeared to me that the union was controlling the number of people that could get training - in other words, limiting the possible competition to ensure there would not be any serious competition for jobs. That is my biggest beef with the current system. The apprenticeship program is controlled by one special interest or another and none of them seem to be interested in trying to see that all those with aptitude have a chance to get training. A few years later, several tech industries moved to the area, starting a housing boom, and the apprenticeship program opened up.


Economic fact of life: the talent market (for that IBEW local) was SATURATED.

The ONLY way to employ you would be to kick a current IBEW member in good standing off a job site. Under cutting the wages of current tradesmen goes against everything every union ever stood for.

There is a well nigh universal assumption -- especially by recent high school and college graduates -- that the world/ labor market should just accede to their dreams, and that a position awaits their occupancy.

The other crazy idea is that because one is young and hard working that one is in any way cost competitive with the older 'slow' folks. It's only (much) later that it might dawn on the young man that the veterans are all blazingly faster than the 'kids' with the strong young bodies. 

The veterans are *carrying* the apprentices. 

This economic reality is why the IBEW -- indeed any contractor -- is not racing around looking to train new talent. The industry is one of virtually no growth. Someone has to retire/ leave to create a slot for newbies. 

You can't be surprised if a retiring uncle wants his nephew to enter the union local. Those connections exist across all society, in every dimension. Such is life. 

If the skilled labor demand was there, the union local would be thrilled to expand its membership. :thumbsup:

There's nothing personal about it. In these hard times, every local of every union is getting absolutely bombed with apprentice solicitations.


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## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

MTW said:


> Licensing allows slackers and hacks to survive in the trade because they are protected from competition simply because they have their nanny state permission slip aka license.


No offense. But how would there be less hacks and slackers with no license? As i said before. Take a field trip to arizona.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> No offense. But how would there be less hacks and slackers with no license? As i said before. Take a field trip to arizona.


Or Nevada.........

While neither state requires a license, my experience in Nevada is that you either do good work and lots of it, or they'll get rid of you and hire someone else who will. 

There's no license here to protect the hacks. You are employed here based on your workmanship and ability to get it done.


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## billn (Aug 31, 2011)

Oregon is not a closed shop state, so you do not have to be a union member to work in the trade. But, to get started, you have to be a union member. So, because of union patronage, a dimbolt nephew gets in the program instead of some bright young fellow that does not have a card carrying relative.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

Money is the driving force here. Many people don't care about quality and don't give damn about anything except how much does it cost. The unlicensed hack.

A wanna be electrician, you know the guy with a hole hawg and a hatchet in the trunk of his worn out Honda, will always underbid any legitimate contractor. You can't compete and shouldn't even try. These guys will always be around, you see the shoddy work everywhere. Ask him about a license and then the BS begins. 

So a license only means something to those who care, good customers and electricians. You are a legitimate businessman with insurance and the skills. You do good work and have repeat customers. You get permits and inspections. 

As for me, here is my price, and I'm worth it. If you want cheap - get somebody else.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Our state recently went to statewide licensing. Sad to say, it was driven by special interests. On the positive side, it eliminated all licences required by cities etc. On any job that dosen't require a permit, the hacks have little to fear. As usual, the licensing laws have very few teeth. I do suspect when Mr. HO has a fire, and the insurance company discovers his workmanship, payment may be an issue.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

micromind said:


> There's no license here to protect the hacks. You are employed here based on your workmanship and ability to get it done.


:thumbsup:

And you're also free to make your living however you choose, without the government telling you that you can't.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> And you're also free to make your living however you choose, without the government telling you that you can't.


Naahh, you are not. As much as I hate government interference I realize that when it comes to something such as sudo-professionalism there are too many people who think that they are qualified...and they are not.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

billn said:


> Oregon is not a closed shop state, so you do not have to be a union member to work in the trade. But, to get started, you have to be a union member. So, because of union patronage, a dimbolt nephew gets in the program instead of some bright young fellow that does not have a card carrying relative.


That's pretty much how it worked here too until about 6 years ago when the economy took a dive and the union started bleeding members. Now they aren't so selective.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Sparky B Goode*

*Deep down Louisiana close to New Orleans,
Way back up in the woods among the evergreens...
There stood a log cabin made of earth and wood,
Where lived a country boy name of Sparky B. Goode...
He never ever learned to read or write so well,
But he could wire a panel like ringing a bell.

Go Go go Sparky Go go Go Sparky B. Goode

He use to carry his NEC in a gunny sack
And sit beneath the trees by the railroad track.
Oh, the engineers used to see him sitting in the shade,
Reading that code book the NEC made.
People passing by would stop and hire
Cause that little country boy could really wire

Go Go go Sparky Go go Go Sparky B. Goode


His mentors told him someday you would be the man,
And you would be the leader of a big old plan.
Many people coming from miles around
To see you spark it up when the sun goes down
Maybe someday your name will be in lights "Saying Sparky B. Goode tonight!"

Go Go go Sparky Go go Go Sparky B. Goode

~C(w/apologies to Chuck Berry)*


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> *Deep down Louisiana close to New Orleans,
> Way back up in the woods among the evergreens...
> There stood a log cabin made of earth and wood,
> Where lived a country boy name of Sparky B. Goode...
> ...



FIFY (very last letter) :laughing::thumbsup::jester:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

*Mike Holt’s State Rating of the Electrical Industry - 2015* July 24, 2015Sent to 68510 Subscribers
Print It!

 As part of our ongoing commitment to safety in the electrical community, we annually update our report that assigns a safety grade to each of the U.S. states based on points* for *state-wide adoption and enforcement* of the following electrical standards: 


The most current NEC®
State licensing requirements for Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Contractor, Inspector, Engineer
 Continuing Education requirements for license renewal
 
*THE CURRENT NEC®*
The 2014 NEC® became effective on August 21, 2013. This report, and the map, reflect those states that have adopted it. 

*“A+” [HIGHEST] RANKING *
Arkansas, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota and Wyoming - a ‘full house” of points due to adoption of the 2014 NEC®, and meeting the state mandated requirements on all the categories evaluated for this analysis. 

*HERE’S THE RANKING *
Click Here for a complete history since 2007, and details of how the points are assigned.
























**HOW THE POINTS ARE ASSIGNED *
One point is assigned to each element of the licensing type, and one point for each element of the continuing education requirements for that license type. To see details of the points behind the grades Click Here 

The number of points assigned for adoption of the most current NEC is 3. This year 2014 NEC=3 points, 2011 NEC=2 points, 2008 NEC=1 point, 2005 NEC = 0 and prior NEC or local adoption = -1 point. States that have not adopted a newer edition of the NEC since the last report will automatically slide down one point due to the new scale. The points in the ‘2015 CHG’ column indicates the change since the last report showing whether the state went up (+), down (-) or stayed the same (0).

Important note: We know that there are many safe counties and municipalities that take licensing and enforcement seriously. This will not be reflected in the data reported here because this analysis is based on a uniform standard that is the State adoption of the requirements, regardless of whether local counties and municipalities have their own high standards. 

*WE APPRECIATE YOUR FEEDBACK!*
If you have any updated information that you feel would change our rankings on this year’s report, please post your comment – we appreciate your feedback to help keep this analysis accurate and current.

*ARCHIVE OF PAST REPORTS* 
Click Here for a complete history since 2007, and details of how the points are assigned. 

*We acknowledge and congratulate all those states, counties and local municipalities that continue to set high standards in electrical safety. *

NEC® is a registered trademark of the National Fire Protection Agency.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> *Mike Holt’s State Rating of the Electrical Industry - 2015* July 24, 2015Sent to 68510 Subscribers
> Print It!
> 
> As part of our ongoing commitment to safety in the electrical community, we annually update our report that assigns a safety grade to each of the U.S. states based on points* for *state-wide adoption and enforcement* of the following electrical standards:
> ...


So New Jersey and Delaware have a higher grade than Pennsylvania but I see the same "quality" of work in all three states, so what is the point?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Jawohl....*

We gotta *A * That's because we all sleep with our NEC jackboots on here , join us commrades! We will spread das Wort des NEC in diesem land !!!

~Chicken Siege~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> So New Jersey and Delaware have a higher grade than Pennsylvania but I see the same "quality" of work in all three states, so what is the point?


Montrez-nous vos papiers ....... vos papiers s'il vous plaît ! :whistling2:~CS~:laughing:


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> We gotta *A * That's because we all sleep with our NEC jackboots on here , join us commrades! We will spread das Wort des NEC in diesem land !!!
> 
> ~Chicken Siege~


:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I would interpret that map in reverse order to decode states that give the most importance to personal liberty.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

electricalwiz said:


> So New Jersey and Delaware have a higher grade than Pennsylvania but I see the same "quality" of work in all three states, so what is the point?


The point is to raise the bar on our profession-----more money for us.


There is a ton of un-inspected work out there,it does not matter what state it is.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> I would interpret that map in reverse order to decode states that give the most importance to personal liberty.


History has shown that people are more than willing to give up freedom in order to be protected by the government. The issue of licensing is no exception to that.


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## BT Electric (Feb 7, 2014)

FaultCurrent said:


> Money is the driving force here. Many people don't care about quality and don't give damn about anything except how much does it cost. The unlicensed hack.
> 
> A wanna be electrician, you know the guy with a hole hawg and a hatchet in the trunk of his worn out Honda, will always underbid any legitimate contractor. You can't compete and shouldn't even try. These guys will always be around, you see the shoddy work everywhere. Ask him about a license and then the BS begins.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly.



BT Electric


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> History has shown that people are more than willing to give up freedom in order to be protected by the government. The issue of licensing is no exception to that.


Brilliant Pete, lets get rid of high school diplomas college degree's driving licenses, after all none of those things are needed to do what ever we see fit.

Anyone can perform brain surgery, why have a license for that?

Wana be a judge in a courtroom, hey just throw on a black robe and call yourself a judge.

Wana be a cop? just get Navy button down shirts and gun a night stick handcuffs and now you're a cop.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Brilliant Pete, lets get rid of high school diplomas college degree's driving licenses, after all none of those things are needed to do what ever we see fit.
> 
> Anyone can perform brain surgery, why have a license for that?
> 
> ...


I'm not against training and qualifications. I'm against licensing. You seem utterly unable to comprehend this distinction.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I'm not against training and qualifications. I'm against licensing. You seem utterly unable to comprehend this distinction.


You are against all of those things, who are you chitting.

You either have training and qualifications, or you do not.

Just walking around saying you have the training and qualifications does not cut it..

Also this thread is 13 days old, why have you not turned in your licenses? Seems hypocritical to me that you are still holding them.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I would interpret that map in reverse order to decode states that give the most importance to personal liberty.


Exactly, this seems to be a map of 'which state rams the most rules on us', also known as 'which state is the most communistic'.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> I'm not against training and qualifications. I'm against licensing. You seem utterly unable to comprehend this distinction.


So this entire argument boils down to a piece of paper that says you have training and are qualified? My clients assume I have that piece of paper and, on demand, I will show it to them.

This seems to be lost in the endless drivel that this thread has become. Having a license give my customers a certain comfort level. These are people who buy name brand corn flakes over generic corn flakes. I'm not interested in customers who buy generic corn flakes. I'm the name brand electrician over the generic electrician. 

As industry insiders we can argue about this forever but, as a contractor, I am more interested in how I am seen through the eyes of the customer. That piece of paper has value and any cost that goes along with obtaining and maintaining it is money well spent.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

99cents said:


> So this entire argument boils down to a piece of paper that says you have training and are qualified? My clients assume I have that piece of paper and, on demand, I will show it to them.
> 
> This seems to be lost in the endless drivel that this thread has become. Having a license give my customers a certain comfort level. These are people who buy name brand corn flakes over generic corn flakes. I'm not interested in customers who buy generic corn flakes. I'm the name brand electrician over the generic electrician.
> 
> As industry insiders we can argue about this forever but, as a contractor, I am more interested in how I am seen through the eyes of the customer. That piece of paper has value and any cost that goes along with obtaining and maintaining it is money well spent.


:thumbsup:


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I would interpret that map in reverse order to decode states that give the most importance to personal liberty.


Laissez faire to the hilt, eh?
Personal freedom also entails I can decide to whack my competition. It's only a law passed by the foolish government, right? Personal freedom!!!

So, really, though...are the current rules that draconian?


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MTW said:


> History has shown that people are more than willing to give up freedom in order to be protected by the government. The issue of licensing is no exception to that.


How does licensing fit that? It seems to me that it protects the public. No hacks means, theoretically, safer public. And the best way that I have heard of is regulated licensing. You have a better idea?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

fargowires said:


> How does licensing fit that? It seems to me that it protects the public. No hacks means, theoretically, safer public. And the best way that I have heard of is regulated licensing. You have a better idea?


Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? :001_huh: A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MTW said:


> I'm not against training and qualifications. I'm against licensing. You seem utterly unable to comprehend this distinction.


Is it just the money?? I don't follow, and belive me, I am trying. How is the public to gauge the validity of your claimed qualifications, without some centralized(oh no, communism!!) authority? You want everyone rated by Yelp?


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MTW said:


> Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? :001_huh: A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.


I've read it all, thanks.
I just don't hear a reasonable alternative.
Of course a license doesn't totally protect the public. we live in a very imperfect world. Any attempts at perfection are futile, and narcissistic. However, since humans have trod on this ol rock, we have continued to strive for a better world(mostly). I see licensing as better than no licensing.
Please feel free to continue arguing your side, but you better come up with an alternate system.

And, no, I don't like licensing either. It's just the best we got.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Have you read anything I've said in this thread at all? :001_huh: A license does not protect the public, does not guarantee quality work, does not stop unlicensed and hack work from being done, and is most certainly no indicator of the skill level of an electrician.


Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.

Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses. 

Why is that???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg



:sleep1:


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## 120/208 (Nov 18, 2012)

Black Dog said:


> Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.
> 
> Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.
> 
> ...


:lol::lol:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.
> 
> Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.
> 
> ...



Can you please explain how you know that?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> So this entire argument boils down to a piece of paper that says you have training and are qualified? My clients assume I have that piece of paper and, on demand, I will show it to them.
> 
> This seems to be lost in the endless drivel that this thread has become. Having a license give my customers a certain comfort level. These are people who buy name brand corn flakes over generic corn flakes. I'm not interested in customers who buy generic corn flakes. I'm the name brand electrician over the generic electrician.
> 
> As industry insiders we can argue about this forever but, as a contractor, I am more interested in how I am seen through the eyes of the customer. That piece of paper has value and any cost that goes along with obtaining and maintaining it is money well spent.



It may give customers comfort, but only because they are lead to believe that license=God. In reality it means nothing. 

Perfect example: You have no idea how easy it is to obtain a home inspectors license. In fact some organizations like Internachi will give you a certificate no questions asked just for paying or even posting in their forums. Realtors and buyers take every word they say being gold despite the fact every professional knows the greater the danger the more likely they are to miss it. 

If I remember correct only 39 states require inspectors to actually hold a license, the others dont care. In both cases you see no difference. In both cases they miss defects and in both cases conflict of interest, politics and in the case of licensing imperfect training gets in the way. In the end they all miss dangers like un-permitted pools, but if the panel has a double tap everyone has to panic being danger of cataclysmic melt down. 

While not as sever or in the same way our trade has the same flaws. Im not bashing anyone here but one place I see so many electricians lacking is in electrical theory. Some guys can recite the code in their sleep but ask them how or why any rule exists they have no clue. 

Further, I know many of you will not get this, but its worth mentioning anyways. Bright minds are unwelcome in education. Example: If you went to take courses decades ago (heck even today) that taught you the purpose of a ground rod was to clear a fault do you really believe you will look smart in front of the students and teacher? Do you really believe you will pass those courses? Do you really believe anyone will view with respect or as patient or stable when you are trying to explain the very concept being taught will get people killed? Heck no. This is actually how nearly all ignorance is perpetuated: violent condemnation without investigation. Anyone with who know the truth or has 2 ounces of brain knows education has nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with conformity. 

The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

meadow said:


> Can you please explain how you know that?


I know......HaHaHaHa!!


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

meadow said:


> The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.


Really? My apprenticeship certainly wasn't like this, and I seriously doubt that most electricians experienced it, either. My questions were answered, and I learned most of the skills I use today.

Licensing is not a "be all, end all" solution. It's simply a baseline requirement. However, the apprenticeship requirements (8000 hours of OJT, and 1000 hours of classroom), required before licensing, put most licensed electricians, here, well above non-licensed, in knowledge, safety, and skill.

That's my opinion, and no one, in this thread, has convinced me otherwise.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

I still have not seen peer reviewed proof that licensing should be removed. I've seen a study that showed that dental licenses did not increase the quality of work but did keep wages higher.

I believe the same of electrical. If license requirements were heavily enforced and all jobs inspected I imagine the rate of hack work and electrical fires would drop.

Though, you can't have that without funding the government and I I'm afraid we all can agree that the government are horrible at managing finances, making people less inclined to give extra money to the government.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

120/208 said:


> :lol::lol:



Cool story Chris


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan the electricman said:


> Really? My apprenticeship certainly wasn't like this, and I seriously doubt that most electricians experienced it, either. My questions were answered, and I learned most of the skills I use today.
> 
> Licensing is not a "be all, end all" solution. It's simply a baseline requirement. However, the apprenticeship requirements (8000 hours of OJT, and 1000 hours of classroom), required before licensing, put most licensed electricians, here, well above non-licensed, in knowledge, safety, and skill.
> 
> That's my opinion, and no one, in this thread, has convinced me otherwise.



Maybe yours was not, but others do have those types. Take orders and dont ask questions. There have even been threads on here about that. 

Yes you have 1000 hours of in classroom, but it lacks electrical theory. Im in the school of thought becoming an electrician should be like going to college to some degree. Theory, code, plus hands on for a well round individual.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> I still have not seen peer reviewed proof that licensing should be removed. I've seen a study that showed that dental licenses did not increase the quality of work but did keep wages higher.
> 
> I believe the same of electrical. If license requirements were heavily enforced and all jobs inspected I imagine the rate of hack work and electrical fires would drop.
> 
> Though, you can't have that without funding the government and I I'm afraid we all can agree that the government are horrible at managing finances, making people less inclined to give extra money to the government.



So you admit the government shouldn't have a say in this?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> It may give customers comfort, but only because they are lead to believe that license=God. In reality it means nothing.
> 
> Perfect example: You have no idea how easy it is to obtain a home inspectors license. In fact some organizations like Internachi will give you a certificate no questions asked just for paying or even posting in their forums. Realtors and buyers take every word they say being gold despite the fact every professional knows the greater the danger the more likely they are to miss it.
> 
> ...


Copywrite this , and send it to all our trade rags, apprenticeship councils , tread leaders and shakers Meadow:thumbup:

But know that , inasmuch as we subscribe to it, a mertiocracy is about as probable as your truly bringing Hilly to full climax on CNN (copious amounts of top shelf a given) :no:

All i can say is Ain't that a shame


~C (is that a Grod in your pocket, or do you just wanna sh&t me again)S~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Copywrite this , and send it to all our trade rags, apprenticeship councils , tread leaders and shakers Meadow:thumbup:
> 
> But know that , inasmuch as we subscribe to it, a mertiocracy is about as probable as your truly bringing Hilly to full climax on CNN (copious amounts of top shelf a given) :no:
> 
> ...


If people could understand I would. It is a shame, but fortunately nothing knowledge cant fix. Getting people to drink a new drink besides kool-aid is the hard part.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

meadow said:


> So you admit the government shouldn't have a say in this?


I don't think removal of government is the best move, but I don't support their mismanagement of funds either.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> Can you please explain how you know that?



He doesn't know anything.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

NC Plc said:


> I don't think removal of government is the best move, but I don't support their mismanagement of funds either.



Which they are probably doing right now with licensing?


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

meadow said:


> Maybe yours was not, but others do have those types. Take orders and dont ask questions. There have even been threads on here about that.
> 
> Yes you have 1000 hours of in classroom, but it lacks electrical theory.


And, you're wrong again. I had a full year of theory.

Also, you obviously don't know what's in the dozens of different apprenticeship programs around the US. You know what *you* experienced, and what's been written on here.

Stop pretending you know more than you do.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Says you; The fact is you had a free ride during your apprenticeship and therefore do not value the hard work of others who earned their license.


Am I supposed to value the "hard work" of the people that did a 2 year apprenticeship and got a license? Or the ones who were grandfathered in and paid for their license just like a fishing license? Or the ones who knew the right people in the government and got their license in exchange for a bag of cash? Should I value the licensed electricians who do hack work every day and it never gets called out because they "know the inspector"? 

You're 100% right, I don't value an electrical license at all. It's toilet paper as far as I'm concerned. 



> Again this thread is 13 days old, however you are still holding your licenses.
> 
> Why is that???


Don't be a fool. Licenses are like taxes, I'm forced to keep my licenses at the point of a gun. I can't work without them and the fines are much more expensive than the license fees.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> I
> The vast majority of apprentices all ask excellent questions "why do we do x if we do y" "how does this work" yet we quickly teach them their way of thinking is wrong, to shut up and follow orders. This is not an apprenticeship, this is the death of our trade.


Apprentice education is a joke. More sleeping than learning actually takes place. The classes are usually taught by failed electricians who perpetuate the trade myths that are still so common today. Any apprentice who is bright and doesn't need to be taught a simple ohm's law calculation is stuck and has to suffer through the classes because the state mandates it. So you're 100% right, anyone with brains and aptitude is penalized.


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

MTW said:


> So you're 100% right, anyone with brains and aptitude is penalized.


No. You're both assuming you know all about the many different apprenticeships around the country, when you don't.

At this point, I wouldn't trust anything you post without a credible link. You just make stuff up.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> No. You're both assuming you know all about the many different apprenticeships around the country, when you don't.
> 
> At this point, I wouldn't trust anything you post without a credible link. You just make stuff up.


So apprenticeship programs exist where you can test out of the course work?

Please enlighten me where I have erred.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Apprentice education is a joke. More sleeping than learning actually takes place. The classes are usually taught by failed electricians who perpetuate the trade myths that are still so common today. Any apprentice who is bright and doesn't need to be taught a simple ohm's law calculation is stuck and has to suffer through the classes because the state mandates it. So you're 100% right, anyone with brains and aptitude is penalized.


:laughing::laughing:

Wow! The school you went to sucked ah?:laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> Wow! The school you went to sucked ah?:laughing:


Based on the fact that you almost never post anything electrically related on this forum, I think that's the case with you rather than me. :whistling2:


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Based on the fact that you almost never post anything electrically related on this forum, I think that's the case with you rather than me. :whistling2:


Good deflection; However, if the school you went to is as you describe then you were not qualified to sit for your exams, you have committed fraud. Turn in your licenses right now and confess. And your execution will be swift.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Good deflection; However, if the school you went to is as you describe then you were not qualified to sit for your exams, you have committed fraud. Turn in your licenses right now and confess. And your execution will be swift.


My school was fine since it was private (aka not run by the government that you love so much.)


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> My school was fine since it was private (aka not run by the government that you love so much.)


Walking back your comments now I see:laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Walking back your comments now I see:laughing:


You see a lot of stuff that isn't there when you're hammered.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> You see a lot of stuff that isn't there when you're hammered.


And there you go, I have you boxed in and so you attack me instead.

In 14 days now and 491 posts you have yet to provide a valid reason that getting rid of the licensing system will help the profession in any way.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan the electricman said:


> And, you're wrong again. I had a full year of theory.
> 
> Also, you obviously don't know what's in the dozens of different apprenticeship programs around the US. You know what *you* experienced, and what's been written on here.
> 
> Stop pretending you know more than you do.


Im not wrong because I never denied you had a full year of theory. Many guys do, but often its not sufficient.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Apprentice education is a joke. More sleeping than learning actually takes place. The classes are usually taught by failed electricians who perpetuate the trade myths that are still so common today. Any apprentice who is bright and doesn't need to be taught a simple ohm's law calculation is stuck and has to suffer through the classes because the state mandates it. So you're 100% right, anyone with brains and aptitude is penalized.



Took the words right out of my keyboard. :laughing: And spot on about the last part. :thumbsup: Most mandated courses go by a one size fits all geared around the lowest common denominator. God forbid you tell the instructor he is perpetuating myths. 

When you see the NEC ROPs written by instructors it gives it away. One guy who was an NEC course instructor proposed each bathroom receptacle be on a dedicated circuit because in the current design if someone plugged in to much there would be a fire. CMP simply responded thats already addressed by known loads and circuit breakers :laughing::laughing:


Ive heard of educational systems where apprentices are drilled theory that would be considered EE for at least two years and then must apply the equations and methods in the code to real world scenarios. When you see it night and day becomes obvious. And before you guys jump on top of me with "what equations are you talking about, the NEC hardly has any this proves you dont know what your saying" please consider Im not talking about the NEC in this example. 

It seems like most educational institutions want guys only smart enough to understand the code half way and then get the lights on.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> My school was fine since it was private (aka not run by the government that you love so much.)



Lucky! :furious:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan the electricman said:


> No. You're both assuming you know all about the many different apprenticeships around the country, when you don't.
> 
> At this point, I wouldn't trust anything you post without a credible link. You just make stuff up.




Good, your education has succeeded :laughing: just not in your favor :whistling2:


----------



## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

MTW said:


> Am I supposed to value the "hard work" of the people that did a 2 year apprenticeship and got a license? ....




MTW - Where can you get a 2 Year License ? What apprenticeship program ?




Pete


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The term_ apprenticeship_ hails from jolly old England fellas, before that it could be traced 1000's of years back through different cultures.

The entire jist was personal responsibility of passing a craft from Master to Apprentice. 



> In England, early apprentices were required to make a masterpiece or test piece after completing their apprenticeships. This sample of work was submitted for inspection by a group of masters to gain guild recognition of their status as “freemen.”


History of Apprenticeship

This no longer exists where apprentices are considered job fodder....

~CS~


----------



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

pete87 said:


> MTW - Where can you get a 2 Year License ? What apprenticeship program ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can get a R.W.after 2 years in Colorado.


----------



## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

JHFWIC said:


> You can get a R.W.after 2 years in Colorado.




That RW is Residential Wiring I take it . Times have changed . We were required 8000 hours and had class 2x a week for 4 years.




Don


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

so what does 1 yr cost & what do you get?

~CS~


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

pete87 said:


> That RW is Residential Wiring I take it . Times have changed . We were required 8000 hours and had class 2x a week for 4 years.
> 
> Don


RW is a Residential Wireman license. It's a level between Apprentice and Journeyman, in Colorado. Requires less hours, and less classroom training. They can't pull permits, and can only work in Resi.


----------



## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

meadow said:


> Im not wrong because I never denied you had a full year of theory. Many guys do, but often its not sufficient.


Here's what you posted yesterday:



meadow said:


> Maybe yours was not, but others do have those types. Take orders and dont ask questions. There have even been threads on here about that.
> 
> *Yes you have 1000 hours of in classroom, but it lacks electrical theory.* Im in the school of thought becoming an electrician should be like going to college to some degree. Theory, code, plus hands on for a well round individual.


You, and MTW, can keep opining that apprenticeships are no good, but* it's just your opinion.* The only facts you have are your own personal experience, in the apprenticeships you went through.


----------



## fistofbolts (Jan 25, 2014)

micromind said:


> Or Nevada.........
> 
> While neither state requires a license, my experience in Nevada is that you either do good work and lots of it, or they'll get rid of you and hire someone else who will.
> 
> There's no license here to protect the hacks. You are employed here based on your workmanship and ability to get it done.


Border states but worlds apart in wages and quality of work. I dont get how that came to be. I would guess that nevada is the exception to the rule. 
Im any case work is picking up some in az. Saw a flood of ads on craigslist for electrician. There were a lot of contractors looking for their dream company man foreman with 10 years experience.....up to $23 hr. So if any of you guys that keep hammering on in this thread about how we shouldn't be licensed. Put your money where your mouth is and all your hard earned knowledge to work...for $23 hr. Try and make it here in the phoenix valley, driving close to a hour or more to jobsite and back. Feed your family and pay your mortgage with that.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

No matter how good or bad the apprenticeship system is, the motivated are going to rise to the top as good employees or owners. There were people I wouldn't hire to sweep the floor and others who I'd hire without much question. No matter how in depth, well structured whatever, human nature isn't going to change. I got through it and got to where I am because of me. Good apprentice programs cost money and its not easy to find good instructors willing to give their time for low pay. Our group of students were disruptive and it was painful to sit through.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> And there you go, I have you boxed in and so you attack me instead.
> 
> In 14 days now and 491 posts you have yet to provide a valid reason that getting rid of the licensing system will help the profession in any way.


Yes, you have boxed me in. :laughing::laughing:

I have stated many reasons why licensing is worthless and corrupt throughout this thread. The problem is you are brainwashed and have conditioned yourself to accept protection from the government in this area, all the while you complain about seat belt laws and green energy requirements. You don't have an independent mind and thought process so you're incapable of seeing my point of view. There are a few people who have agreed with me and share my position on this. I'd much rather be on their side than yours.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> Here's what you posted yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> You, and MTW, can keep opining that apprenticeships are no good, but* it's just your opinion.* The only facts you have are your own personal experience, in the apprenticeships you went through.


Until I see evidence to suggest otherwise, it will remain my opinion of the industry as a whole.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

pete87 said:


> MTW - Where can you get a 2 Year License ? What apprenticeship program ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It used to be that way here until they changed it to a 4 year requirement.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan the electricman said:


> Here's what you posted yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> You, and MTW, can keep opining that apprenticeships are no good, but* it's just your opinion.* The only facts you have are your own personal experience, in the apprenticeships you went through.



1000 hours, one year, you are the one that said this :laughing:



> *Also, you obviously don't know what's in the dozens of different apprenticeship programs around the US*. You know what you experienced, and what's been written on here.


I was talking in general. Every place is different, but again, when I say most programs need to drill more theory. You are saying its fine because I think you don't have anything else to compare to, I do.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> No matter how good or bad the apprenticeship system is, the motivated are going to rise to the top as good employees or owners. There were people I wouldn't hire to sweep the floor and others who I'd hire without much question. No matter how in depth, well structured whatever, human nature isn't going to change. I got through it and got to where I am because of me. Good apprentice programs cost money and its not easy to find good instructors willing to give their time for low pay. Our group of students were disruptive and it was painful to sit through.



Assuming the system hasn't gotten to them yet.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

fistofbolts said:


> Border states but worlds apart in wages and quality of work. I dont get how that came to be. I would guess that nevada is the exception to the rule.
> Im any case work is picking up some in az. Saw a flood of ads on craigslist for electrician. There were a lot of contractors looking for their dream company man foreman with 10 years experience.....up to $23 hr. So if any of you guys that keep hammering on in this thread about how we shouldn't be licensed. Put your money where your mouth is and all your hard earned knowledge to work...for $23 hr. Try and make it here in the phoenix valley, driving close to a hour or more to jobsite and back. Feed your family and pay your mortgage with that.


Oregon and Nevada are the only states I've ever worked in long enough to form opinions, so yes, I do have somewhat limited resources. 

But the difference between these 2 states was almost night-and-day in terms of general attitude and to a lesser degree, pay. 

Both attitude and pay were far better in Nevada when I moved here in 1990.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*If i can see further.........*

I can equate my 'lectrical experiences with ems . I was a student back in the Reagan administration , sucking up every word , slept with my books, total geek.

One of my mentors said '_you become an EMT on the streets' _ , I didn't understand , having passed all my written and practicals with high marks


As a noob i was assigned to an old Nav corpsman of Korean vintage. _(I miss him dearly btw)_ I fell flat on my face so many times it shook my confidence , but he was the patient sort. I felt like all my classroom time had let me down.....

I learned academics and experience are symbiant , eventually assuming a position were i had to impart what i'd gained on the next generation of noobs, and bite my tongue watching them in the field.

So i ask here, are we , as a trade, that much different?

~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I can equate my 'lectrical experiences with ems . I was a student back in the Reagan administration , sucking up every word , slept with my books, total geek.
> 
> One of my mentors said '_you become an EMT on the streets' _ , I didn't understand , having passed all my written and practicals with high marks
> 
> ...


I think the 3 best learning experiences for an electrician are 1. theory, 2. code, 3. hands on experience (especially trouble shooting).

I liken it to the fire tetrahedron, you need all 3 to get the good strong fire.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

meadow said:


> I think the 3 best learning experiences for an electrician are 1. theory, 2. code, 3. hands on experience (especially trouble shooting).
> 
> I liken it to the fire tetrahedron, you need all 3 to get the good strong fire.


I'd like to see a strong focus on tools and test equipment, for electricians and engineers at the beginning too, a majority of electricians and engineers are very sheltered in these areas. I graduated with engineers that can barley use a multimeter.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I'd like to see a strong focus on tools and test equipment, for electricians and engineers at the beginning too, a majority of electricians and engineers are very sheltered in these areas. I graduated with engineers that can barley use a multimeter.



I think the same way. There are programs out there that drill the use of test equipment and have theory to back it up. One place where apprentices are failed is energizing switchgear. All switchgear should be meggered out of common sense before being re-energized or switched on for the first time both for cost and safety. The Plug your ears- wait outside and hope nothing goes boom is not the right way to go about it.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

fistofbolts said:


> Border states but worlds apart in wages and quality of work. I dont get how that came to be. I would guess that nevada is the exception to the rule.
> Im any case work is picking up some in az. Saw a flood of ads on craigslist for electrician. There were a lot of contractors looking for their dream company man foreman with 10 years experience.....up to $23 hr. So if any of you guys that keep hammering on in this thread about how we shouldn't be licensed. Put your money where your mouth is and all your hard earned knowledge to work...for $23 hr. Try and make it here in the phoenix valley, driving close to a hour or more to jobsite and back. Feed your family and pay your mortgage with that.



Arizona is a RTW state, so that has much more to do with pay grade than lack of a license. I'll be the first to admit I'm no fan of unions, but a strong union presence, not a license requirement, almost always equates to higher wages for all.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> Arizona is a RTW state, so that has much more to do with pay grade than lack of a license. I'll be the first to admit I'm no fan of unions, but a strong union presence, not a license requirement, almost always equates to higher wages for all.


Even though Nevada is also a RTW state, Vegas is almost all union. 

Reno, not so much, but I'd bet that Vegas has a lot of influence on wages in Reno, with Northern California having some as well.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> When TPP , TISA, et al are passed, it will be illegal for states and townships to require licensing of tradeworkers if foreign countries allow work to be performed without a license. And those foreign countries will be able to sue the states and cities who do not accept their foreign workers to operate without a license. Welcome to the new world order, it only gets better and better.


I disagree somewhat with your assessment. The foreign workers will be able to operate with impunity. Native born citizens will still be required to be licensed and will still pay fines for working without one. A gigantic double standard will exist. Actually, that double standard exists now in all the sanctuary cities and states, but it will get much worse. That only proves all the more that a license is only about money and has nothing to do with safety or worker training.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> I disagree somewhat with your assessment. The foreign workers will be able to operate with impunity. Native born citizens will still be required to be licensed and will still pay fines for working without one. A gigantic double standard will exist. Actually, that double standard exists now in all the sanctuary cities and states, but it will get much worse. That only proves all the more that a license is only about money and has nothing to do with safety or worker training.


So when will you turn them in and become unlicensed ?:whistling2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg



:sleep1:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

For the record, I'm not at all against training, testing, apprenticeships, unions, inspections, accreditations or model codes. What I am against is the government issued (and government required) trade licensing. If licensing is to exist, it should not be administrated by any governmental body, and it should not be required to perform any certain type of work.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> For the record, I'm not at all against training, testing, apprenticeships, unions, inspections, accreditations or model codes. What I am against is the government issued (and government required) trade licensing. If licensing is to exist, it should not be administrated by any governmental body, and it should not be required to perform any certain type of work.


Spot on. :thumbsup:

How do you answer the naysayers that a license guarantees consumer protection and quality work? My answer is "Buyer Beware."


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

not break the jist, but, uh ,harry, thats not a cricket there!:laughing:


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll assume those who loath gub'mit licensure would also have apprenticeships, inspections , NFPA codes, permits ,etc follow suit.



So _who or what_ creates a level playing field fellas?
'Buyer Beware' merely means the biggest BS'er wins....



~CS~


----------



## John (Jan 22, 2007)

Seams y'all like to bitch about the quality of the electrians. Have any one of you actually done something to kick it up a notch? 
Long time ago a Master craftsman would take on an apprentice and teach him as much knowledge and experience as the master craftsman knew. The Master craftsman could guarantee that the apprentice had a good skill set and was ready to advance to the next level as a Journeyman. As the title implies the Journeyman would "journey" and acquire more knowledge,experience and reputation to eventually become a Master. 
So licensing is not really worth the paper it is printed on unless the is some kind of knowledge, experience or reputation to back it up. 

I did my part and I took on 4 apprentices in my career and still keep in touch with them all. I Actuality sold my business to one of them when I retired.

So quit your bitch'n and do something about it.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> For the record, I'm not at all against training, testing, apprenticeships, unions, inspections, accreditations or model codes. What I am against is the government issued (and government required) trade licensing. If licensing is to exist, it should not be administrated by any governmental body, and it should not be required to perform any certain type of work.


In a perfect world, that would be wonderful. Who would regulate those doing the inspections, issuing credentials, unions, etc? What would keep them from accepting money from special interest groups? How much would I have to pay someone under the table to issue me a Masters license?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll go out on a limb and claim the tooth fairy and easter bunny are already spoken for......:whistling2:~CS~:laughing:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

MTW said:


> Spot on. :thumbsup:
> 
> How do you answer the naysayers that a license guarantees consumer protection and quality work? My answer is "Buyer Beware."


I'll confess that it seems logical to any thinking man that a license should equate to higher quality work and greater consumer protection. What we find in reality, however, is that the only scholarly studies ever done to address those very topics prove this isn't the case. Not only does it not equate to greater quality work or greater consumer protection, but licensing has a measurably negative impact on both. This is completely counter-intuitive, and that's the root of much of the friction in this thread, I believe. You can't argue with data, though. The data says what it says. If anyone has a link to any scholarly studies on the matter of tradecraft licensing as it relates to the quality of the work or consumer protection that says differently, I'd be very interested in reading them. Please link here. I've never managed to find any.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> I'll confess that it seems logical to any thinking man that a license should equate to higher quality work and greater consumer protection. What we find in reality, however, is that the only scholarly studies ever done to address those very topics prove this isn't the case. Not only does it not equate to greater quality work or greater consumer protection, but licensing has a measurably negative impact on both. This is completely counter-intuitive, and that's the root of much of the friction in this thread, I believe. You can't argue with data, though. The data says what it says. If anyone has a link to any scholarly studies on the matter of tradecraft licensing as it relates to the quality of the work or consumer protection that says differently, I'd be very interested in reading them. Please link here. I've never managed to find any.


Doesn't really matter. If the perception exists that licensing offers a higher standard of work, then the licensed guy has the advantage over the unlicensed guy. The typical consumer doesn't go with scholarly studies, he goes with what feels right and the licensed contractor is what feels right. Hell, in our attention deficit culture, most people are more interested in Kim Kardashian's a$$ than scholarly studies.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

99cents said:


> Doesn't really matter. If the perception exists that licensing offers a higher standard of work, then the licensed guy has the advantage over the unlicensed guy. The typical consumer doesn't go with scholarly studies, he goes with what feels right and the licensed contractor is what feels right. Hell, in our attention deficit culture, most people are more interested in Kim Kardashian's a$$ than scholarly studies.


I appreciate that honest answer, and I believe that is correct. The only benefit to government required trade licensing is to promote perceptions. That begs the question that has been asked originally.... Is it any of the government's business engaging in a licensing requirement practice that only serves to promote perceptions? My answer is, profoundly, no.


----------



## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> I appreciate that honest answer, and I believe that is correct. The only benefit to government required trade licensing is to promote perceptions. That begs the question that has been asked originally.... Is it any of the government's business engaging in a licensing requirement practice that only serves to promote perceptions? My answer is, profoundly, no.


But are licenses only to promote perceptions? I don't think so. How many contractors would file for permits and get inspections if there were no licensing requirement. I don't know about everywhere but here I can loose my license if I don't get permits and inspections. If there is no license why bother. If I get 1 judgement against me I could loose my license. No license, so what.

And yes I know there are some bad inspectors out there but most of the ones I deal with are knowledgeable and good at their jobs.


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> I'll confess that it seems logical to any thinking man that a license should equate to higher quality work and greater consumer protection. What we find in reality, however, is that the only scholarly studies ever done to address those very topics prove this isn't the case. Not only does it not equate to greater quality work or greater consumer protection, but licensing has a measurably negative impact on both. This is completely counter-intuitive, and that's the root of much of the friction in this thread, I believe. You can't argue with data, though. The data says what it says. If anyone has a link to any scholarly studies on the matter of tradecraft licensing as it relates to the quality of the work or consumer protection that says differently, I'd be very interested in reading them. Please link here. I've never managed to find any.


The ones I have seen show that quality of work does not increase, but wages do.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

NC Plc said:


> The ones I have seen show that quality of work does not increase, but wages do.


That's seems to be a clear fact in the papers I've read, which does nothing for the consumer. Is it the government's role to inflate wages of certain trades?


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> That's seems to be a clear fact in the papers I've read, which does nothing for the consumer. Is it the government's role to inflate wages of certain trades?


Well I believe the original intent was to ensure that the quality is there.. If those that are inspecting the work are scarce or letting things slide the license is meaningless.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

NC Plc said:


> Well I believe the original intent was to ensure that the quality is there.. If those that are inspecting the work are scarce or letting things slide the license is meaningless.


Without a doubt. That's how licensing was 'sold'. Increased safety and quality. With a lifetime of historical data for studies to draw upon, neither has been a result of government required and government issued trade licensing. Not only has neither been the result, but the exact opposite resulted according to the data. What has happened is that it has served as a barrier to entry for others and it has bolstered wages. There's no going back now. Many tradespeople like that welfare program. Bummer about that.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So _who or what_ creates a level playing field fellas?
> 'Buyer Beware' merely means the biggest BS'er wins....


That's a completely different matter, but I can say that it should not be the government's job to mess around in any trade or craft to "create a level playing field". That's code for "promoting mediocrity".


----------



## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

MDShunk said:


> Without a doubt. That's how licensing was 'sold'. Increased safety and quality. With a lifetime of historical data for studies to draw upon, neither has been a result of government required and government issued trade licensing. Not only has neither been the result, but the exact opposite resulted according to the data. What has happened is that it has served as a barrier to entry for others and it has bolstered wages. There's no going back now. Many tradespeople like that welfare program. Bummer about that.


I'm not convinced that an electrician version of what is going on in the IT industry would be best.


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I'll confess that it seems logical to any thinking man that a license should equate to higher quality work and greater consumer protection. What we find in reality, however, is that the only scholarly studies ever done to address those very topics prove this isn't the case. Not only does it not equate to greater quality work or greater consumer protection, but licensing has a measurably negative impact on both. This is completely counter-intuitive, and that's the root of much of the friction in this thread, I believe. You can't argue with data, though. The data says what it says. If anyone has a link to any scholarly studies on the matter of tradecraft licensing as it relates to the quality of the work or consumer protection that says differently, I'd be very interested in reading them. Please link here. I've never managed to find any.


Links, please?


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That's seems to be a clear fact in the papers I've read, which does nothing for the consumer. Is it the government's role to inflate wages of certain trades?


Links?


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

I find throughout this thread, the three main outlooks:
The libertarian. Keep the goll darn gubmint outta my bid ness!
The so******t. The government is here to help us.
And the pragmatist. It is what is is, this is how messy humans deal with things, get over it.
Does that just about sum this up?
Cuz I'm kinda tired....


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

NC Plc said:


> The ones I have seen show that quality of work does not increase, but wages do.


Links, please?


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That's a completely different matter, but I can say that it should not be the government's job to mess around in any trade or craft to "create a level playing field". That's code for "promoting mediocrity".


I gotta disagree. If there is a way, a process, that ensures the level playing field contains a highly competent, well trained and motivated association of electrical contractors, mediocrity could be avoided. And your entire post is code for "gubmint is bad".


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

fargowires said:


> Links, please?


I linked to several in the beginning of this thread.


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

Sorry, it had been a while since I read it thru.
Thanks


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> That's a completely different matter, but I can say that it should not be the government's job to mess around in any trade or craft to "create a level playing field". That's code for "promoting mediocrity".


So , in lieu of any non governing oversight *option* , i'll take it you's wish the market to be self correcting 

~CS~


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So , in lieu of any non governing oversight *option* , i'll take it you's wish the market to be self correcting
> 
> ~CS~


I'm more interested in the government getting out of my personal business than I am about what markets do.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Imagine there's no license, It's easy if you try
The NEC can blow us..... The DIY's can fry

Imagine all the sparkys ... working for crap pay...
Imagine no inspections ... It isn't hard to do
Nothing to shill or lie for ... And no afci's too

Imagine all the sparkies leaving in one pieeeEEEEEEeece

You may say I'm a dreamer , or some renegade sonofagun
I hope someday you'll join us , libertopia will be so fun

Imagine no apprenticeship throw theroy in the can
No need for open or closed shops, fiened brotherhood the plan
Imagine batterymarch park going up in flaaaAAAAaames

You may say I'm a dreamer , manage contracts with a gun
I hope someday you'll join us , and your world will be far more fun
*

~C(w/apologies to Mr Lennon)S~


----------



## Tony S (Jan 27, 2014)

meadow said:


> I think the 3 best learning experiences for an electrician are 1. theory, 2. code, 3. hands on experience (especially trouble shooting).
> 
> I liken it to the fire tetrahedron, you need all 3 to get the good strong fire.


If you don’t mind Mr. Brooks I’ll rearrange that 

This is based on purely my experience as an industrial electrician.

1. Theory, 
2. Hands on experience (especially trouble shooting). 
3. Code.

Without 1 you can’t do 2. there’s no point in 3 without 1 & 2.

As a qualified apprentice trainer, theory comes top in my book. Understanding how and why something works helps when a plant is broken down. Hands on experience gives you the skill to effect a repair.

As for 3, I’ve been faced with a chemical process running away. To hell with codes and regulations the process has to be got under control no matter what, otherwise there will be a damn big hole in the ground.

Our trade is based on theory and gained experience, not codes and regulations. There’s been a lot of bangs and flashes in the last 200 years, have we learnt from them?


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Tony S said:


> If you don’t mind Mr. Brooks I’ll rearrange that
> 
> This is based on purely my experience as an industrial electrician.
> 
> ...


Well said! :thumbsup:

I believe theory is everything, as they say being both street smart and book smart. 

Code only begins to make sense once theory is understood, and can be essential to applying code correctly to start with since the intention behind it is known.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> I'm more interested in the government getting out of my personal business than I am about what markets do.



Apparently you're also more interested in _deleting my lyrical opinions_ as well MD :whistling2::no:


Why does this _provoke_ you? :blink:


*
Imagine there's no license, It's easy if you try
The NEC can blow us The DIY's can fry

Imagine all the sparkys working for crap pay...
Imagine no inspections It isn't hard to do
Nothing to shill or lie for And no afci's too

Imagine all the sparkies leaving in one pieeeEEEEEEeece

You may say I'm a dreamer , or some renegade sonofagun
I hope someday you'll join us , libertopia will be so fun

Imagine no apprenticeship throw theroy in the can
No need for open or closed shops, fiened brotherhood the plan
Imagine batterymarch park going up in flaaaAAAAaames

You may say I'm a dreamer , manage contracts with a gun
I hope someday you'll join us , and your world will be far more fun
*


~CS~


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

....


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> Code only begins to make sense once theory is understood, and can be essential to applying code correctly to start with since the intention behind it is known.


Which is why certain NEMA members have _ascii hissy fits_ Meadow:whistling2:

If that doesn't scream _'state of the trade'_ , nothing will...

Personally, i've little patience for such double standards 

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> Pullet, you've gone free range! :thumbup:


and i haven't even made *so******t* ryhme yet :laughing:~CS~


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Which is why certain NEMA members have _ascii hissy fits_ Meadow:whistling2:
> 
> If that doesn't scream _'state of the trade'_ , nothing will...
> 
> ...



Me too.


----------



## Tony S (Jan 27, 2014)

Unfortunately Mr. Brookes theory seems to have been lost in favour of getting college pass rates. Codes and regulations being the prime consideration now.

I’m sorry to say this, but from where I’m looking 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvfCE-_VlxY


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Its said where things are headed. The system needs to change, without theory the trade is doomed.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm afraid the 3 legged stool doesn't hold much w/o all 3 elements. 

Most of us who served _formal_ apprenticeships here can vouch. Of course the term itself is dubious at best. 

It's always the same responses when a_ noob_ asks here too, most of us will insist on starting a personal library. 

The best of us consider our schooling merely a start....

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Libertytopianisticism*

Which brings me to the libertopians here. 

They all have _one_ thing in common

They hate the Gub'Mit in their private dealings

But only when it *DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM.*

When removing *ALL* Gub'Mit involves the spectre of anarchy they cave quicker than a cheap Kmart table.

Red state mentality at it's finest, also why i have _zero_ interest in visiting states south of me....

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Which brings me to the libertopians here.
> 
> They all have _one_ thing in common
> 
> ...



That's fine, we don't want liberal soc ialists from Vermont either. :thumbsup:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

MDShunk said:


> There's no going back now. Many tradespeople like that welfare program. Bummer about that.



People will almost always give up liberty in favor of tyranny.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Which brings me to the libertopians here.
> 
> They all have _one_ thing in common
> 
> ...


 I'm not sure you'll find many people of the libertarian variety proposing to remove all government. Government has a role, to be sure. That role does not include anything that impedes my personal liberties. The role of government should properly be used to protect our collective personal liberties such as national defense, internal defense, protection of personal rights, protection of free trade, etc. Removing all government is just silly, and is often where conversations like this go when guys want to plop out some wacky extreme example.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> People will almost always give up liberty in favor of tyranny.


Yeah--You make a great argument for licensing in this post.....:laughing:



peter d said:


> [*quote=peter d;1667011*]Same here, and I live in a so-called "sanctuary state" which has a high number of illegal residents. Electrical work requires a license and apprenticeship (at least in my state), technical skills, English proficiency and ability to understand highly technical language and terms. A poorly educated person from Guatemala or Mexico who lacks language and technical skills is going to be hard pressed to make it in the electrical trade. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen, but it's an extremely uphill battle. That's why most illegals do low skill and low pay jobs here.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> I'm not sure you'll find many people of the libertarian variety proposing to remove all government. Government has a role, to be sure. That role does not include anything that impedes my personal liberties. The role of government should properly be used to protect our collective personal liberties such as national defense, internal defense, protection of personal rights, protection of free trade, etc. Removing all government is just silly, and is often where conversations like this go when guys want to plop out some wacky extreme example.



Exactly, and well said! :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Government will _forever and a day_ be responsible for a level playing field in some sort of regulatory oversight MD

Such bureaucracy will always be a double edged sword in the respect that too little is an anarchy market , too much is a fascist market

For example, methinks most would disagree to elevate _'personal liberty'_ to forgo driving licenses , and simply assume _road theory_ at everyone else's expense :no:

Metaphorically, our trade is no different .

I find the trade anarchists like to _cherrypick_. They want to parse out a _seat belt, helmet,air bag, speed limit_ as fascist interventions , but only on THEIR terms, caring less if it works out for anyone else, least of all the betterment of the trade in general

Unless i've missed their grand solution, most of this threads nay sayers exhibit this denial shield 

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Let's turn this around then

No licensure , zip zero, nada required.

This would essentially mean _'No Restrictions' _for the labor pool to engage in the trade.

Now i know a license is merely a benchmark, i've conceded it not the end all.....the but just how do the nay sayers figure it'll sugar off ?

No license means Joe the Plumber (et all hacks)bids our trades work

No license means said laborer could OR could not assume any level of related academics 

Yup, that right, 1st yr apprentices beating you out

AND, it means your AHJ may ALSO be nothing more than that 1st yr man

sooner of later the nec becomes something akin to this>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsRo-m9muFE

Is this cycle of doom starting to sink in to a few libertopian brains here?

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Almost forgot these guys>>>










~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I think what would suit this trade best if an apprenticeship became like going to college. This would produce serious electricians while weeding out those who just dont have the passion or abilities.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Yeah--You make a great argument for licensing in this post.....:laughing:


No, I would much rather immigration laws be enforced than nonsensical trade licensing laws. 

But since you're back in the thread again, why don't you respond to anything Marc says? I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> No, I would much rather immigration laws be enforced than nonsensical trade licensing laws.
> 
> But since you're back in the thread again, why don't you respond to anything Marc says? I won't hold my breath.


I have, try reading the thread----It starts *here...*


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Why do we worry about such trivial things as a license?


Here is a story about why congress is so impotent. https://www.intellihub.com/congress-is-controlled-and-bribed-by-the-nsa-through-widespread-surveillance-of-our-elected-representatives/


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> I think what would suit this trade best if an apprenticeship became like going to college. This would produce serious electricians while weeding out those who just dont have the passion or abilities.


They exist abundantly in college curricula Meadow. 

The problem is universal reciprocity of accreditation 

~CS~


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> They exist abundantly in college curricula Meadow.
> 
> The problem is universal reciprocity of accreditation
> 
> ~CS~


I just received an email about a week ago from my state licensing board asking me to fill out a survey about what should be included in a new "multi-state" licensing test. It appears several states are trying to come up with a test that would be accepted for reciprocity.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mgraw said:


> I just received an email about a week ago from my state licensing board asking me to fill out a survey about what should be included in a new "multi-state" licensing test. It appears several states are trying to come up with a test that would be accepted for reciprocity.


Utah has reciprocal licensing agreements with 13 other States. For example if I have a valid Utah State Journeyman's license I can get an Idaho journeyman's license by paying the license fee, no test required.

Chris


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most of the testings are via private orgs who simply proctor a packaged exam

So i guess this is where the reciprocity rubber meets the road

~CS~


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Most of the testings are via private orgs who simply proctor a packaged exam
> 
> So i guess this is where the reciprocity rubber meets the road
> 
> ~CS~


The Utah Journeyman exam is written by a committee convened by the State Electrical board and made up of Electrical Instructors, Inspectors and other experts. The exam is administer by a private company.

The reciprocal agreements that were made between Utah and other states is based on the contents of the test and the requirements for a license, namely a 4 year apprenticeship program.

Chris


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Utah has reciprocal licensing agreements with 13 other States. For example if I have a valid Utah State Journeyman's license I can get an Idaho journeyman's license by paying the license fee, no test required.
> 
> Chris


Yes we have that with other states too. But this was to design a standardized test for multiple states.


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

mgraw said:


> Yes we have that with other states too. But this was to design a standardized test for multiple states.


Do all the states adopt the NEC on the same schedule? Do they have State Amendments to the NEC?

Those issues among others seem to be some of the biggest roadblocks that I have seen with a single test for multiple states.

Chris


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

And so what is needed here to be recognized , to gain work, and to keep the unqualified from doing so?

~CS~


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## mgraw (Jan 14, 2011)

raider1 said:


> Do all the states adopt the NEC on the same schedule? Do they have State Amendments to the NEC?
> 
> Those issues among others seem to be some of the biggest roadblocks that I have seen with a single test for multiple states.
> 
> Chris


True but the questions were more about general knowledge and what were the more important things someone would need to know in order to get a license. It was more or less geared to what is the minimum someone would need to know.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> They exist abundantly in college curricula Meadow.
> 
> The problem is universal reciprocity of accreditation
> 
> ~CS~



I agree, but raw theory cant stop anyone. Theory is the backbone of everything.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Theory is what fuels abilities from Kazoo solos to Astrophysics Meadow.

Again, if trade orgs like the IAEI were to get off their dead azz and provide qualifiers for our trade , i might actually join up again.....

slackers.....:no:

~CS~


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

I need to see some logic behind the no trade licensing idea. 

Where does it stop? Chances are that anyone who answers that is going to just pull some arbitrary position out of their behind.

They will say that a doctor should be licensed. So should a dentist. But what about a veterinarian? What about a lawyer, should we get rid of the Bar? Should an explosives demolition company be licensed? Most police and deputies are certified as LEO by their state, get rid of that too? How about pilots? Captains?

Where do you draw the line and for what reason? If you can't come up with a really good reason for where you place the line, you shouldn't be placing the line in the first place.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

I should think that it's high time to license political candidates.

If, for nothing else, the FEES.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Maybe Wolf Blitzer can administer a verbal in the situation room Telsa, anyone sayin' we've 57 states flunks.....:laughing:~CS~:no:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I need to see some logic behind the no trade licensing idea.
> 
> Where does it stop? Chances are that anyone who answers that is going to just pull some arbitrary position out of their behind.
> 
> ...


The opposite is true as well. Since safety is involved here, why not license everything? 

Why not require a license to get out of bed in the morning? Or leave my house? Or enter a building that I do not own? 

My problems with licensing electricians are as follows;

1) The present system does not recognize knowledge or experience gained by any non-official method. Natural talent does indeed exist.

2) I have seen absolutely zero evidence that licensing causes any sort of improvement in quality of workmanship. In fact, my personal experience is the opposite; licensing has caused a general decrease in quality. "I have a license, you don't. I can do this work, you can't. So you will accept whatever work I perform."

3) Unnecessary licensing is in reality, nothing more than continued indoctrination to communism. Government control of everything. Including your personal life.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

micromind said:


> The opposite is true as well. Since safety is involved here, why not license everything?
> 
> Why not require a license to get out of bed in the morning? Or leave my house? Or enter a building that I do not own?
> 
> ...


And NONE of that can be backed up with any made up facts that did not come from an agenda created by huge corporations---every trade has bad apples and the licensing system will weed them out faster.

As electricians we cannot even agree on what a safe working pace we all should work at,too many still think that the top priority is to work so fast that poor workmanship is the norm and you can forget about the safety of the people that live in these homes we wire in 10 seconds...


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## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

micromind said:


> 2) I have seen absolutely zero evidence that licensing causes any sort of improvement in quality of workmanship. In fact, my personal experience is the opposite; licensing has caused a general decrease in quality. "I have a license, you don't. I can do this work, you can't. So you will accept whatever work I perform."
> 
> Complete, complete BS.
> You must work with your eyes closed.
> ...


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

micromind said:


> The opposite is true as well. Since safety is involved here, why not license everything?
> 
> Why not require a license to get out of bed in the morning? Or leave my house? Or enter a building that I do not own?
> 
> ...


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

fargowires said:


> Complete, complete BS.
> You must work with your eyes closed.
> As well as your mind. Sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder for people who went through the proper training, including theory and safety.
> 
> Licensing is not a perfect solution, but it works better than any ideas I have read on this thread. It definitely needs work, but you guys advocating anarchy are clueless.


False, I have never advocated anarchy a single time. That's a total straw man argument. I believe that electrical work should be regulated by standards and codes. The question is should the government be in that position of regulation? I say no.


----------



## fargowires (Aug 26, 2010)

OK, fair enough. So you are saying that governmental licensing is out. What do we replace it with? My point throughout this thread.
I hearby nominate MTW as chief license hander-outer.
And many posts on this thread have, in essence, advocated anarchy. Not a staw man. Just not applicable to you, I suppose.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> False, I have never advocated anarchy a single time. That's a total straw man argument. I believe that electrical work should be done by low wage labor The question is should the government be in that position of regulation? I say no.


FIFY


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> False, I have never advocated anarchy a single time. That's a total straw man argument. I believe that electrical work should be regulated by standards and codes. The question is should the government be in that position of regulation? I say no.


And you say standards set by who? the Camber of commerce perhaps?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> And you say standards set by who? the Camber of commerce perhaps?


The IBEW has its own standards of training and workmanship. Some non-union organizations do as well. There are lots of private tech schools that train electricians and other tradesmen. 

But by all means keep advocating for the government to give you a permission slip to make your own living.


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

micromind said:


> The opposite is true as well. Since safety is involved here, why not license everything?


 We already do. You need a license to cut hair or paint women's fingernails. 


> Why not require a license to get out of bed in the morning? Or leave my house? Or enter a building that I do not own?


 Hyperbole like this doesn't serve anyone. This thread is about businesses performing services for people.



> My problems with licensing electricians are as follows;
> 
> 1) The present system does not recognize knowledge or experience gained by any non-official method. Natural talent does indeed exist.


 The same with a doctor or lawyer.



> 2) I have seen absolutely zero evidence that licensing causes any sort of improvement in quality of workmanship. In fact, my personal experience~


 This is anecdotal evidence. Your experience alone. What do the real facts say?

In my state the only licensing is for the contractor. The actual working electrician has no license at all. That's why I see so many laborers wiring houses, and so much shoddy work. I am willing to bet if you stop by 20 new houses in my state and see how skilled the electrician are and compare them with states in New England where there are journeyman licenses, you are going to find much higher skilled workers. 



> 3) Unnecessary licensing is in reality, nothing more than continued indoctrination to communism. Government control of everything. Including your personal life.


Is that really true? You do realize that what you just said is that anyone who supports the requirement for doctors having licenses support communism. That's what you said, right?

ETA: I will add that you did not answer my question about where your arbitrary line would be between requiring a license and not requiring one. I am very interested in hearing where your line is and why.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> The IBEW has its own standards of training and workmanship. Some non-union organizations do as well. There are lots of private tech schools that train electricians and other tradesmen.
> 
> But by all means keep advocating for the government to give you a permission slip to make your own living.


You're not too smart are you!


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Theory is what fuels abilities from Kazoo solos to Astrophysics Meadow.
> 
> Again, if trade orgs like the IAEI were to get off their dead azz and provide qualifiers for our trade , i might actually join up again.....
> 
> ...



I believe taking intense pride in our installations, along with additional educational qualifiers need to be put in place to set us apart from hacks.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> This is anecdotal evidence. Your experience alone. What do the real facts say?.


Actually, that's not completely true. Every single scholarly study done on the matter of governmental issued trade licensing shows that it increases the costs to the consumer, provides a lower quality installation, and the safety of the installation is not enhanced but, rather, reduced. All but two of the studies known to me were done with government money, no less, and one by the Navy. :laughing:

Earlier in this thread I linked to a couple such studies. I've sandbagged a few in my hip pocket also. The invitation is still open for anyone to post or link to any scholarly study that shows that government issued trade licensing does anything to enhance the value to the consumer of the installed electrical work in terms of safety, quality, or cost. I've picked around researching this, off and on, for maybe 15 years. I don't think there's any actual evidence in terms of hard data in tabular form or scholarly studies that show this.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Actually, that's not completely true. Every single scholarly study done on the matter of governmental issued trade licensing shows that it increases the costs to the consumer, provides a lower quality installation, and the safety of the installation is not enhanced but, rather, reduced. The studies known to me were done with government money, no less. :laughing:
> 
> Earlier in this thread I linked to a couple such studies. I've sandbagged a few in my hip pocket also. The invitation is still open for anyone to post or link to any scholarly study that shows that government issued trade licensing does anything to enhance the value to the consumer of the installed electrical work in terms of safety, quality, or cost. I've picked around researching this, off and on, for maybe 15 years. I don't think there's any actual evidence in terms of hard data in tabular form or scholarly studies that show this.


Thanks for being a member of the chamber of commerce " We work diligently to bring our members the lowest priced labor in the world":laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Thanks for being a member of the chamber of commerce " We work diligently to bring our members the lowest priced labor in the world":laughing:


Oh, hi. Thanks for responding. You have anything in the way of actual data to add to this, or are one-liners pretty much your only bar trick?


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Thanks for being a member of the chamber of commerce " We work diligently to bring our members the lowest priced labor in the world":laughing:


So in your daily activities you always strive to pay the highest price for everything? When buying material, you get several quotes and then choose the highest one? When buying a truck you pay MSRP, is that correct? I can go on with this if you'd like.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

In truth, I'm far less interested in what people pay for stuff. Instead, I'm more interested in being able to exercise my own natural energies and talents in pursuit of my own interests, unimpeded by government licensure.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

So no one wants to answer my question of where they draw the line in requiring licenses and why?


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> Thanks for being a member of the chamber of commerce " We work diligently to bring our members the lowest priced labor in the world":laughing:


You are arguing from a completely different standpoint than everyone else here. You are all about the soci-alist aspect of licensing. Using the government to get higher wages.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> So in your daily activities you always strive to pay the highest price for everything? When buying material, you get several quotes and then choose the highest one? When buying a truck you pay MSRP, is that correct? I can go on with this if you'd like.


I pay people that work for me well, and I get guys to do the work without problems and attitudes----It's a simple concept. pay chit and you'll get just that.


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> I pay people that work for me well, and I get guys to do the work without problems and attitudes----It's a simple concept. pay chit and you'll get just that.


Generally, that's true. Getting 'chit has nothing at all to do with whether that person has a license from the government, but it can sometimes have a lot to do with what he's paid. Thanks for seeing things my way.


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> I pay people that work for me well, and I get guys to do the work without problems and attitudes----It's a simple concept. pay chit and you'll get just that.


Bologna Harry, you do not pay anyone.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You are arguing from a completely different standpoint than everyone else here. You are all about the soci-alist aspect of licensing. Using the government to get higher wages.


Here, *This* should help you out....


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> I pay people that work for me well, and I get guys to do the work without problems and attitudes----It's a simple concept. pay chit and you'll get just that.


There's a world of difference between paying a full time employee and paying someone under the table to help you out once in a while. But even taking your statement at face value, you still pay the lowest possible wage even if it's still higher than others. For instance, you could pay your help $70 an hour but you don't, because that's far above average pay.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> You are arguing from a completely different standpoint than everyone else here. You are all about the soci-alist aspect of licensing. Using the government to get higher wages.


That's been stated numerous times already, but better late than never I guess. :laughing:


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

Black Dog said:


> Here, *This* should help you out....


That's pretty much the only thing you have done this entire thread, attacked the reading comprehension of people who do not agree with you.

Is anything I said NOT true?? 

You are a soci-alist as proven in this post in which you agreed with IslandGuy's soci-alist utopia: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f15/increasing-minimum-wage-109921/index8/#post2037113
And you clearly want government licensing in order to have the government inflate wages, you admitted as much.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So......

Still no fixes from the '_No Gub'Mit in my trade needed'_ posters here



~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*Get over it....*



CharlieCarcinogen said:


> That's pretty much the only thing you have done this entire thread, attacked the reading comprehension of people who do not agree with you.
> 
> .


Literacy and/or critical thinking skills are not a prerequisite in this mans trade Chuck....

~CS~


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So......
> 
> Still no fixes from the '_No Gub'Mit in my trade needed'_ posters here
> 
> ...


What are we fixing, Steve? My point is pretty simple. I don't like government issued tradecraft licensing. Studies have proven it does nothing for the consumer, and in fact hurts them in the areas of quality, safety, and price. It's not my stated goal to fix anything, but rather stop any future governmental interference in my natural productive energies by pointing out how it has not helped anyone thus far in history.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> > What are we fixing, Steve?
> 
> 
> qualifications, so you tell us what your 'fix' is , other than Gub'Mit Sir....
> ...


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

And then there is NY ways of licensing where every town and village has there own license in which you must be approved by the rabbinical board comprised of two or three local electricians from that vicinity. And once you get any of those 17 licences that permit you to work in a 60 square mile county. The county will fine you if you hang a tv or cut an attic fan in for not having the counties home improvement license. 

In some circumstances licensing is complete bullschit.

Sent from my SM-G360P using Tapatalk


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So no one wants to answer my question of where they draw the line in requiring licenses and why?


My opinion is no government licensing for anyone for anything. 

My reasoning is that licensing does nothing to ensure any type of competency and/or ability.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> My opinion is no government licensing for anyone for anything.
> 
> My reasoning is that licensing does nothing to ensure any type of competency and/or ability.



Curious, did your apprentice ship steer you toward this view? By honest, Im genuinely curious


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

micromind said:


> My opinion is no government licensing for anyone for anything.
> 
> My reasoning is that licensing does nothing to ensure any type of competency and/or ability.


Cool ! At last, I am going to be opening my orthodontics office !!!
My Lord, how I have waited for this day...........


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

micromind said:


> My opinion is no government licensing for anyone for anything.
> 
> My reasoning is that licensing does nothing to ensure any type of competency and/or ability.


So no licensing for doctors because it does not ensure any type of medical competency and/or ability?

No licensing for pilots because it does not ensure any type of flying competency and/or ability.

Anyone should be able to go buy high explosives (that are currently only available to licensed mining and demolition companies) because you don't want licensing, huh?


The funny thing is that I consider you to be one of the smartest people here. But you got this chip on your shoulder about licensing and I think it's effecting your better judgement.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So no licensing for doctors because it does not ensure any type of medical competency and/or ability?
> 
> No licensing for pilots because it does not ensure any type of flying competency and/or ability.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it comes from some place...? Our system doesn't always cater well to smart people.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> Curious, did your apprentice ship steer you toward this view? By honest, Im genuinely curious


I've never been an apprentice. Everything I know about the trade I was either born with or picked up through my own study. 

My view on licensing came from seeing tons of licensed electricians whom I would consider incompetent; the only reason they are employed in the trade is because they managed to jump through each government hoop and obtained a paper that allowed them to work where others are not permitted. 

Further, my experience as a pilot was somewhat similar, though I had the necessary licenses.


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Generally, that's true. Getting 'chit has nothing at all to do with whether that person has a license from the government, but it can sometimes have a lot to do with what he's paid. Thanks for seeing things my way.


Every single college degree is really from the government considering that the colleges would not exist without the funding that comes from the government, so that college degree is really just government issued license to gain entrance into the professional world.

Here in massholevill the occupation of electrician is a profession because of the apprenticeship and licensing. An apprentice works on the goal of taking the exam by working in the field for at least 8,000 hours, however you will have at least 9,000 hours before you have your journeyman license, but once you have it your pay moves up to that of a professional making it so you can build a family and own your own home as you work as a licensed journeymen electrician.

A guy who holds a journeymen electrician license tells me that he has at least 5 years in the field and understands how to use the code and understands electrical theory. 

Without the licensing system I do not see what the incentive is working in the trade considering that you would simply be low wage labor forever.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> I've never been an apprentice. Everything I know about the trade I was either born with or picked up through my own study.
> 
> My view on licensing came from seeing tons of licensed electricians whom I would consider incompetent; the only reason they are employed in the trade is because they managed to jump through each government hoop and obtained a paper that allowed them to work where others are not permitted.
> 
> Further, my experience as a pilot was somewhat similar, though I had the necessary licenses.



But why did you bypass the apprenticeship? Surely you could have learned more from it?


----------



## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Is anything I said NOT true??


I really don't know considering I don't have the time to read the 85 posts you put up in that last hour:laughing::laughing:


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> So no licensing for doctors because it does not ensure any type of medical competency and/or ability?
> 
> No licensing for pilots because it does not ensure any type of flying competency and/or ability.
> 
> ...


How many licensed doctors have killed people due to their lack of knowledge and/or ability? Not a lot, but certainly some. 

Don't even get me started on pilots. The majority of them these days are not pilots at all; they're computer observers. Case in point, 7/6/13. A licensed pilot crashed a perfectly functional 777 into the seawall at San Francisco during perfect weather. The computerized flight control systems were not operational that day, and he completely failed to execute a hand-flown approach and landing in perfect weather with a perfectly functional airplane. Hand flying a visual approach is one of the most basic skills a pilot possesses. 

And he had a license issued by the government. 

When I lived in Bend Oregon many years ago, I, as an 18 year old kid, regularly bought dynamite with no license. It was used to blast rock out for foundations and septic systems. No damage was ever done.....well, except for the rock we needed to remove. 

Thanks for the compliment....I really mean that. 

And yes, I very likely do have a chip on my shoulder about licensing. Maybe it does affect my judgement, the actual truth is that Oregons licensing requirement hurt me a lot. A way lot, and very likely I'm still carrying a grudge against licensing because of it. 

And it probably does spill over into other areas.......


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

micromind said:


> How many licensed doctors have killed people due to their lack of knowledge and/or ability? Not a lot, but certainly some.
> 
> Don't even get me started on pilots. The majority of them these days are not pilots at all; they're computer observers. Case in point, 7/6/13. A licensed pilot crashed a perfectly functional 777 into the seawall at San Francisco during perfect weather. The computerized flight control systems were not operational that day, and he completely failed to execute a hand-flown approach and landing in perfect weather with a perfectly functional airplane. Hand flying a visual approach is one of the most basic skills a pilot possesses.
> 
> ...


Yea, the best looking girl in high school had no time for me, so because of that all those ............... muhahahaha....


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> And yes, I very likely do have a chip on my shoulder about licensing. Maybe it does affect my judgement, the actual truth is that Oregons licensing requirement hurt me a lot. A way lot, and very likely I'm still carrying a grudge against licensing because of it.
> 
> And it probably does spill over into other areas.......




And this is the exact reason why I want the system overhauled. Time and time again I see licensing and apprenticeships offer less then they should.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> But why did you bypass the apprenticeship? Surely you could have learned more from it?


I may very well have learned more by going through an actual program. 

But I seriously doubt that I had the ability to sit through the required classroom time. I doubt I could even today. 

Some people do not do well in a structured learning environment, I am one of them. 

If you were to teach me how to swim, for example, about the only thing we'd learn is the limit to our patience........but if I were to fall off a boat, I'd teach myself before I'd drown. 

The main reason I left Oregon is because I wanted to be able to utilize my natural ability, but the license system would not allow me to. And given my experience in school, high school in particular, I was pretty sure i would not be able to stay in the classroom part of the program. 

Also, I didn't think much of the quality of electrical work I saw. 

So, having flown planes to Reno many times, I checked into licensing in Nevada. There is none. The city of Reno though, does license electricians. 

I went to Reno and applied to several electrical contractors and was hired by one on the spot as a journeyman. I went to work the next day. I didn't know it at the time, but that company would hire anyone. Most guys make it about 2 hours, if they really need guys, some will last a couple of days. But they keep the guys who they make money on. 

I've been with that group of guys for over 25 years.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Black Dog said:


> Without the licensing system I do not see what the incentive is working in the trade considering that you would simply be low wage labor forever.


I have experience in only 2 states, so take this for what it's worth, but in my personal experience Oregon (license required), pays considerably less than Nevada (no license). 

I have heard (cannot confirm) that Arizona (no license) pays less than Oregon and Nevada. 

So it may very well be that licensing does indeed equal better pay, but not Oregon vs. Nevada.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> I may very well have learned more by going through an actual program.


If the program could teach you at a pace the worked for you, I am guessing that you are a fast learner?





> But I seriously doubt that I had the ability to sit through the required classroom time. I doubt I could even today.


Trust me, your not alone. I may read books but I also need to be hands on. 






> Some people do not do well in a structured learning environment, I am one of them.


x2 






> If you were to teach me how to swim, for example, about the only thing we'd learn is the limit to our patience........but if I were to fall off a boat, I'd teach myself before I'd drown.
> 
> The main reason I left Oregon is because I wanted to be able to utilize my natural ability, but the license system would not allow me to. And given my experience in school, high school in particular, I was pretty sure i would not be able to stay in the classroom part of the program.


My guess is you would be much like me in high school, become bored and hate it. 






> Also, I didn't think much of the quality of electrical work I saw.


I dont blame you. Some instructor seem to teach you how to hack, not to take pride in your work. Couple with a lack of verifying installations and you get the work you see today. But what ever you do don't question that :laughing::jester: 



> So, having flown planes to Reno many times, I checked into licensing in Nevada. There is none. The city of Reno though, does license electricians.
> 
> I went to Reno and applied to several electrical contractors and was hired by one on the spot as a journeyman. I went to work the next day. I didn't know it at the time, but that company would hire anyone. Most guys make it about 2 hours, if they really need guys, some will last a couple of days. But they keep the guys who they make money on.
> 
> I've been with that group of guys for over 25 years.


I am glad you found something that helped you. I think the key here was when someone let you be yourself, not try and fit you into a mold. Those who speak out against that end up getting pushed down further. All the more reason to discard a one sizes fits all.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Micro....

You're a pro in my eyes, and always a worthy read here

I bow to your natural abilities

But please realize, you are a minority

~CS~


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> If the program could teach you at a pace the worked for you, I am guessing that you are a fast learner?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly true in every respect.

Especially the 'push me into a mold'. When an intelligent person is allowed to think on their own, they will always excel. When they are forced to do as they are told, they will rebel. I cannot help but wonder how many people would have been contributors to society if allowed to think independently but are presently in prison because they were forced to do what they were told. 

And even more especially the 'speak out against' part. No offense intended, but there's nothing quite like telling a smart person that he is a fool because he questions blind obedience to rules and regulations.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Micro....
> 
> You're a pro in my eyes, and always a worthy read here
> 
> ...


Thanks, Steve; that means a lot to me. 

And yes, I am indeed in the very small minority. But I also realize that every person is entitled to his own opinions and I don't think less of anyone who disagrees with me.


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## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

micromind said:


> Thanks, Steve; that means a lot to me.
> 
> And yes, I am indeed in the very small minority. But I also realize that every person is entitled to his own opinions and I don't think less of anyone who disagrees with me.


Entitled to your opinion, yes. But I have to question what's going on with someone who says that doctors shouldn't be licensed. You understand that, right? You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat, you have that right. But it's going to make people question your judgement.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Micro....
> 
> You're a pro in my eyes, and always a worthy read here
> 
> ...



Who guides the majority. IF I could tell you how much Ive learned from Micro, I dont think I could. I owe a lot to him, a lot. :thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> Thanks, Steve; that means a lot to me.
> 
> And yes, I am indeed in the very small minority.


I think there more, but the system kills them off. 



> But I also realize that every person is entitled to his own opinions and I don't think less of anyone who disagrees with me.


I wish everyone was like this. Everyone is different including the way the learn.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Is anyone here licensed and against it? It seems that only the guys without one are against it, no?
No choice in Canada and no its not perfect, but it does protect our trade IMO.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't know quite when i _really_ started to learn this trade. Before the 'net it was all about the trade rags , starting a library , attending seminars , etc.

fwiw,I can remember falling asleep many a night with the NEC...

Perhaps my greatest epiphany was the 'net and all it's glory since i logged in decades ago. 

I've had my_ 'theory cherry' _popped more times than a prom queen since

_b*stards!_ :whistling2:~CS~:laughing:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Is anyone here licensed and against it?


IMHO, the hacks are winning 

I'm merely accountable as a licensed entity for the fallout

~CS~


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Is anyone here licensed and against it? It seems that only the guys without one are against it, no?
> No choice in Canada and no its not perfect, but it does protect our trade IMO.


MTW is.


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Is anyone here licensed and against it? It seems that only the guys without one are against it, no?
> No choice in Canada and no its not perfect, but it does protect our trade IMO.


Yes, I hold three different master license and think they are worthless, I see the same "quality" of work done by people with masters as people with out

A license means nothing about knowledge, quality or safety


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

What about re training? Do the license haters also think they don't have to keep up on new codes? 
Don't mean to insult anyone, just seems really odd to me.
In Ontario, Canada, you are not allowed to even refer to yourself as an electrician unless your license is up to date.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> Entitled to your opinion, yes. But I have to question what's going on with someone who says that doctors shouldn't be licensed. You understand that, right? You can have the opinion that the Earth is flat, you have that right. But it's going to make people question your judgement.


Of course I understand where you're coming from, and if we were to suddenly not license doctors, no doubt there'd be more people claiming to be doctors who are actually not qualified. 

But down the road a bit, maybe, just maybe, people would have no choice but to become more savvy in choosing professional help. Especially in this age of instant information. 

I guess my point here is that to blindly depend on a license for anything is foolish.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

meadow said:


> Who guides the majority. IF I could tell you how much Ive learned from Micro, I dont think I could. I owe a lot to him, a lot. :thumbup:


Thanks; coming from a guy I look up to, it carries a lot of weight.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> Thanks; coming from a guy I look up to, it carries a lot of weight.



No, you have it backwards, I look up to you! :thumbsup:


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

micromind said:


> Of course I understand where you're coming from, and if we were to suddenly not license doctors, no doubt there'd be more people claiming to be doctors who are actually not qualified.
> 
> But down the road a bit, maybe, just maybe, people would have no choice but to become more savvy in choosing professional help. Especially in this age of instant information.
> 
> I guess my point here is that to blindly depend on a license for anything is foolish.


I agree with the last part. I put a lot of research into my doctors. 

But that doesn't mean that licensing doctors hasn't saved many lives.

You want to risk people's lives just because they are not as savvy as you? Think about how easy it is to fake reviews for companies and put up bogus advertising. How do you expect your grandma to figure out who is a good doctor and who is just a guy named macmikeman who started doctoring yesterday but spent a lot of money on promotions? You can be at the top of the BBB for just $3,000 per year!


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

micromind said:


> Of course I understand where you're coming from, and if we were to suddenly not license doctors, no doubt there'd be more people claiming to be doctors who are actually not qualified.
> 
> But down the road a bit, maybe, just maybe, people would have no choice but to become more savvy in choosing professional help. Especially in this age of instant information.
> 
> I guess my point here is that to blindly depend on a license for anything is foolish.



I agree.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

eddy current said:


> What about re training? Do the license haters also think they don't have to keep up on new codes?
> Don't mean to insult anyone, just seems really odd to me.
> In Ontario, Canada, you are not allowed to even refer to yourself as an electrician unless your license is up to date.


Since I don't have a license, I don't know how one keeps up with the codes, but I suspect it's some sort of required class of some sort. 

If so, then I have the same problem with it as I have with licenses; self directed study is not recognized, only government sanctioned classes are. 

If this is the case, why would anyone want to study anything other than that which is required? 

Of course, self motivated people would latch onto every possible bit of knowledge, and as much as it pains me to think it, I believe these persons are a pretty small minority.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

eddy current said:


> What about re training? Do the license haters also think they don't have to keep up on new codes?
> Don't mean to insult anyone, just seems really odd to me.
> In Ontario, Canada, you are not allowed to even refer to yourself as an electrician unless your license is up to date.



Some of the new codes the CSA is passing are BS. Just my opinion. They took up arc faults without thinking.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Again i dont want to offend but in canada you wouldn't even be allowed to be my apprentice unless your registered as one with the government.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

CharlieCarcinogen said:


> I agree with the last part. I put a lot of research into my doctors.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that licensing doctors hasn't saved many lives.
> 
> You want to risk people's lives just because they are not as savvy as you? Think about how easy it is to fake reviews for companies and put up bogus advertising. How do you expect your grandma to figure out who is a good doctor and who is just a guy named macmikeman who started doctoring yesterday but spent a lot of money on promotions? You can be at the top of the BBB for just $3,000 per year!


This is a good point; one serious drawback to present technology is that anyone can portray themselves as anything they want. Look at me, I don't have any sort of credentials yet I portray myself as an electrician.......lol.

But I believe that a society with no licensing of anyone will generally be smarter than one which licenses everyone. 

The 'dumbing down' of society through increased regulation (licensing) leading to increased dependance on government will eventually lead to its ultimate destruction. 

A society that relies on the intelligence of its members will thrive.


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

eddy current said:


> Again i dont want to offend but in canada you wouldn't even be allowed to be my apprentice unless your registered as one with the government.


No offense taken; this is a cool discussion!

In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a system that would not allow a person with my knowledge, abilities and experience to be a journeyman without going through a government sanctioned apprenticeship.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

micromind said:


> No offense taken; this is a cool discussion!
> 
> In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a system that would not allow a person with my knowledge, abilities and experience to be a journeyman without going through a government sanctioned apprenticeship.


I agree here, you should be able to get a license somehow.


----------



## CharlieCarcinogen (Aug 8, 2015)

micromind said:


> No offense taken; this is a cool discussion!
> 
> In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with a system that would not allow a person with my knowledge, abilities and experience to be a journeyman without going through a government sanctioned apprenticeship.


So, IMO, you should be promoting some type of testing program that would see how knowledgeable you are and also take into account the years of experience that you can prove. That would allow someone like you to get a license.

That's a lot different than wanting to abolish licenses altogether. And it's certainly a lot different than what you said in the above post about licensing leading to the destruction of society... :laughing:


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Just some ideas:
> 
> First and foremost, you need to create, and then spend the money on, an advertising budget.
> 
> ...


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

NC Plc said:


> I agree here, you should be able to get a license somehow.


Anyone can challenge the red seal canadian license. All you need is proof of experience. No schooling. You need to pass it though. 70% is a pass


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Just some ideas:
> 
> First and foremost, you need to create, and then spend the money on, an advertising budget.
> 
> ...





480sparky said:


> Just some ideas:
> 
> First and foremost, you need to create, and then spend the money on, an advertising budget.
> 
> ...


Above is the post you are quoting please feel free to add your comments outside of the post You are quoting.....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> A guy who holds a journeymen electrician license tells me that he has at least 5 years in the field and understands how to use the code and understands electrical theory.


Having worked with Mass. licensed electricians, I can tell you this statement is complete nonsense.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> Having worked with Mass. licensed electricians, I can tell you this statement is complete nonsense.


Sort of my experience in Oregon too. 

There were guys who knew exactly what they were doing, but occasionally, some simply didn't.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Oh, hi. Thanks for responding. *You have anything in the way of actual data to add to this*, or are one-liners pretty much your only bar trick?


Oh, hi. Thanks for responding.:laughing:

No Not really, just 41 years in the electrical trade----I'm just a HELPER! Would you like your coffee black with no bull chit!?:laughing:

You want to believe whatever the chamber of commerce has to say because it is likely that they are for the lowest wages to serve us contractors on their knees---Oh they are such special people, don't cha know, golfing all day and hiring writers to sell their agenda. Indeed they will even have a so called independent entity tell us how bad licensing trades are---after all it lowers the standards Right?:blink: Moreover it doubles wages----OH the horror.... 

Having no licensing means that YOU can get laborers to do most of your electrical work for minimum wage--- over 40 years and working in several states that requires no licensing at all, I have witnessed the total disregard of the people who will live in those dwellings and the total disregard of the people who do, or try to do the electrical work. The abuse is stunning to say the least.

41 years working in the real world will beat any study by a bunch of bed-wetters who never got their hands dirty....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Oh, hi. Thanks for responding.:laughing:
> 
> No Not really, just 41 years in the electrical trade----I'm just a HELPER! Would you like your coffee black with no bull chit!?:laughing:
> 
> ...


Please list one state where electricians or even laborers doing electrical work make minimum wage.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Please list one state where electricians or even laborers doing electrical work make minimum wage.


Sure I'll jump right on that,,Right after you tell me which states define electricians.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> Sure I'll jump right on that,,Right after you tell me which states define electricians.


So in other words you can't name one and you just shoot from the hip, as usual.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Sure I'll jump right on that,,Right after you tell me which states define electricians.


KENTUCKY, for one does. Anyone else who is doing the work without a license is doing JUST THAT, illegal work.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Above is the post you are quoting please feel free to add your comments outside of the post You are quoting.....


Yeah sorry. Was a mistake. Quoted the wrong post. Tried to erase it.


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## KennethR (Aug 27, 2015)

*License*

Would you like to figure what test should be abolished? I mean there's a lot of possibility if that would happen. You might want to consider some things like something going on. That would be an appropriate reason.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> So in other words you can't name one and you just shoot from the hip, as usual.


This is world wide forum---The states without licensing the laborers who do electrical work make minimum wage. You can look up those figures yourself.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> This is world wide forum---The states without licensing the laborers who do electrical work make minimum wage. You can look up those figures yourself.


Just because you keep repeating the same lie over and over does not make it true.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

MTW said:


> Just because you keep repeating the same lie over and over does not make it true.


There you go with the girlish talk again. 

You are exposed; You want low wage labor available so you can make higher profits off of your crew of slaves; Typical democrat


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

Black Dog said:


> This is world wide forum---The states without licensing the laborers who do electrical work make minimum wage. You can look up those figures yourself.


Harry, I work in PA, A state without licensing and I can assure we make no where near minimum wage

In Boston what does a union electrician make
I think the easiest comparison would be to compare union rates


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Black Dog said:


> There you go with the girlish talk again.
> 
> You are exposed; You want low wage labor available so you can make higher profits off of your crew of slaves; Typical democrat


You're welcome to provide statistics or any proof at all that "laborers" doing electrical work make minimum wage.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It'd be nice to be able to move around the country as an electrician w/o all the reciprocity baloney

But that would take some '_other than GubMit_' private org to do so

and they'd need to institute_ some sort_ of a standard :whistling2:

As such does not (yet) exist here, i'd ask what other countries do? I'm aware many tighter packed Euro countries have some manner of exchange, but have no specific mechanism to opine on

_any foreign devils care to opine_ :laughing:

~CS~


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

A combination of having strong trade licensing requirements and being a non right to work state has helped us have a higher wage and standard of living. Not sure how wages are in other parts of the country?


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## fisstech (Feb 2, 2013)

the canadian red seal system of licensing seems to work pretty good.

a total of 40 weeks in school learning, 7200 hours under a red seal journeymen keep our wages high, and weed out the weak.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> It'd be nice to be able to move around the country as an electrician w/o all the reciprocity baloney
> 
> But that would take some '_other than GubMit_' private org to do so
> 
> ...


Canada! The Red Seal.


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## KennethR (Aug 27, 2015)

Figure out what test it is first, before we get to decide whether licensing should be abolished or not?! But for me, licensing is very important.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

KennethR said:


> Figure out what test it is first, before we get to decide whether licensing should be abolished or not?! But for me, licensing is very important.


Many of us agree...:thumbsup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

John said:


> Seams y'all like to bitch about the quality of the electrians. Have any one of you actually done something to kick it up a notch?
> Long time ago a Master craftsman would take on an apprentice and teach him as much knowledge and experience as the master craftsman knew. The Master craftsman could guarantee that the apprentice had a good skill set and was ready to advance to the next level as a Journeyman. As the title implies the Journeyman would "journey" and acquire more knowledge,experience and reputation to eventually become a Master.
> So licensing is not really worth the paper it is printed on unless the is some kind of knowledge, experience or reputation to back it up.
> 
> ...


This is the best post response for this thread. Thank you.:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> It'd be nice to be able to move around the country as an electrician w/o all the reciprocity baloney
> 
> But that would take some '_other than GubMit_' private org to do so
> 
> ...


Here is the thing , Davis Bacon and military bases. There is a big bag of gypsy electricians who move from Bacon to Bacon and never join a union, but there are some real fine pipe runners in the bunch. So you look at the resume and see California, Texas, Colorado, Alaska, Hawaii, and on and on. 
They know to stay out west cause the wages are the best in the west. The West is the Best.


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