# Think swimming pool pump



## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Disconnect...

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Where's the neutral? They are using the equipment grounding conductor as a current carrying conductor for the gfci. Is that what you are after


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Where's the neutral? They are using the equipment grounding conductor as a current carrying conductor for the gfci. Is that what you are after


Thats one of the violations and UF cable is in use for the pump motor (motor is not double insulated).

I also question the use of drywall screws for mounting. It is on the exterior.

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Those drywall screws wont last but not sure it is a violation. I didn't even look at the UF-- yep that is another issue.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

It is the new uninsulated neutral. By removing the insulation, you can actually carry more unbalanced current. 


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Are 240/v pump motors now requiring a neutral? And what is wrong with using UF?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

aftershockews said:


> Are 240/v pump motors now requiring a neutral? And what is wrong with using UF?


The motor doesn't require the neutral the GFCI breaker does.

680.21 describes the permitted wiring methods for a pool pump and UF isn't one of them unless the pool pump is double insulated.

Pete


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> The motor doesn't require the neutral the GFCI breaker does.
> 
> 680.21 describes the permitted wiring methods for a pool pump and UF isn't one of them unless the pool pump is double insulated.
> 
> Pete


Ah, ok. From memory, and it could have been brand specific, but a 2 pole GFCI breaker does not require a load side neutral to operate correctly.

Edit: Never mind, that install does not have a neutral feeding the sub.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> The motor doesn't require the neutral the GFCI breaker does.
> 
> 680.21 describes the permitted wiring methods for a pool pump and UF isn't one of them unless the pool pump is double insulated.
> 
> Pete


Why would the breaker need a neutral if the motor didn't? A GFI breaker doesn't need a neutral to work properly.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Why would the breaker need a neutral if the motor didn't? A GFI breaker doesn't need a neutral to work properly.


Perhaps I'm in for an education here... How does a 2 pole GFCI breaker measure the magnitude of ground fault current if there is no ground reference?

Does it just measure the current phase vs. phase and look for an imbalance?

Lastly, I would have to ask if the breaker doesn't require a ground reference why the neutral conductor supplied as part of the breaker?

Pete


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

From Schneider Electric:

On 2P 15A to 50A the GFI breaker will work with or without a load neutral wire. However, *if there is no load neutral wire the breaker neutral (white curly wire) must still be connected to the panel neutral.*

On 2P 60A and all 3P (QO only) there is no load neutral wire connection on the breaker. *Again the breaker neutral (white curly wire) must be connected to the panel neutral.* The sensor compares the current flow in both directions and trips the breaker when more than a 6mA inbalance occurs.

Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So if that line side was 12-3UF, and the sparky _'insulated'_ the groundING conductor , w/floating noodle in the box, would you pass it Pete......?

~CS~


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So if that line side was 12-3UF, and the sparky _'insulated'_ the groundING conductor , w/floating noodle in the box, would you pass it Pete......?
> 
> ~CS~


Still couldn't because of 680.21(A)(1) for the branch circuit wiring methods for a pool motor and 110.11 and 300.6 for the drywall screws being used in an outdoor application. (The drywall screw thing may be a bit of a stretch but the screws will probably rust away long before the enclosure).

Pete


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> Perhaps I'm in for an education here... How does a 2 pole GFCI breaker measure the magnitude of ground fault current if there is no ground reference?
> 
> Does it just measure the current phase vs. phase and look for an imbalance?
> 
> ...





Pete m. said:


> From Schneider Electric:
> 
> On 2P 15A to 50A the GFI breaker will work with or without a load neutral wire. However, *if there is no load neutral wire the breaker neutral (white curly wire) must still be connected to the panel neutral.*
> 
> ...


Most GFI breakers have a set of instructions that come with it, and if I'm not mistaken, most have a picture diagram of how to hook it up with/or without a neutral. 

The neutral should only be required if the motor needs it.

BTW, I don't think the drywall screws are going to last very long either. You'll drive by that house in a few years and that disco is gonna be hanging off the wall. :laughing:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pete, since I've got you right here, I had a code question in another thread - Colored ENT...

The question was if it is code compliant to glue pvc connectors to smurf pipe, or do they have to be the click-in connectors?

Sorry to de-rail this thread, but it's not everyday you've got an inspector right here to bug. :jester:


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

From the UL White Book, FKHU:

*Fittings — The outside diameters of ENT are such that standard connectors, couplings and outlet boxes for rigid PVC conduit can be employed for
ENT that is also constructed of PVC. Installation instructions are provided
with each bundle or coil of ENT outlining the procedure to be used when
employing cemented-on PVC conduit fittings and outlet boxes. These techniques include the specific cement to be used as well as its application
method. Other fittings are covered under Electrical-nonmetallic-tubing Fittings (FKKY).
ENT with mechanical fittings identified for the purpose or with
cemented-on fittings is suitable for use in poured concrete.
ENT with cemented-on PVC fittings is suitable for use in:
1. Indoor locations where walls are frequently washed, and
2. Concrete slabs in direct contact with the earth.*

Pete


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> From the UL White Book, FKHU:
> 
> *Fittings — The outside diameters of ENT are such that standard connectors, couplings and outlet boxes for rigid PVC conduit can be employed for
> ENT that is also constructed of PVC. Installation instructions are provided
> ...


Thanks Pete! :thumbsup:


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

MHElectric said:


> Most GFI breakers have a set of instructions that come with it, and if I'm not mistaken, most have a picture diagram of how to hook it up with/or without a neutral.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



GFCI breaker requires the neutral, see the above instructions. 
http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf

Your load doesn't require a neutral. 


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> GFCI breaker requires the neutral, see the above instructions.
> http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf
> 
> Your load doesn't require a neutral.
> ...


So the sub panel would require an isolated neutral bar if a GFI breaker was being used in it? Even if the the motor did not need a neutral, and the sub panel *ONLY* served the motor?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> So the sub panel would require an isolated neutral bar if a GFI breaker was being used in it? Even if the the motor did not need a neutral, and the sub panel *ONLY* served the motor?


Wouldn't necessarily need a isolated neutral bar. You could just use a wire nut.

Pete


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Pete m. said:


> Wouldn't necessarily need a isolated neutral bar. You could just use a wire nut.
> 
> Pete


Right....I didn't realize that. 

Couldn't he just swap that GFI breaker with the breaker he has in the panel, and be good? Then he could land the tail on the neutral bar?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

MHElectric said:


> Right....I didn't realize that.
> 
> Couldn't he just swap that GFI breaker with the breaker he has in the panel, and be good? Then he could land the tail on the neutral bar?


That could fix the breaker issue (if the breaker types are compatible with the panels) but the UF is still an issue... it feeds a pool pump.

Pete


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm a bit confused here guys. Are you guys saying that a two pole 240 volt GFCI breaker needs a line neutral to work properly if the load doesn't need a neutral?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The neutral is needed for the electronics of the gfci . If there is no neutral you will put current on the equipment grounding conductor.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Roger123 said:


> I'm a bit confused here guys. Are you guys saying that a two pole 240 volt GFCI breaker needs a line neutral to work properly if the load doesn't need a neutral?



It would work off the equipment grounding conductor but as I stated above it would put current on the equipment grounding conductor. Neutral should be present for the electronics to work


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Roger123 said:


> I'm a bit confused here guys. Are you guys saying that a two pole 240 volt GFCI breaker needs a line neutral to work properly if the load doesn't need a neutral?


From here


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Roger123 said:


> I'm a bit confused here guys. Are you guys saying that a two pole 240 volt GFCI breaker needs a line neutral to work properly if the load doesn't need a neutral?


I was also under the same impression. Especially since several brands say in their instructions that a neutral wire does not need to be present for the GFI breaker to work properly.

I dunno, we'll see...


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Pete m. said:


> Perhaps I'm in for an education here... How does a 2 pole GFCI breaker measure the magnitude of ground fault current if there is no ground reference?


I don't think it has to, any difference in amperage between the 2 legs would be a fault.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> I was also under the same impression. Especially since several brands say in their instructions that a neutral wire does not need to be present for the GFI breaker to work properly.
> 
> I dunno, we'll see...


They are talking about the load side neutral. The load neutral is not necessary if the tub is 240V but the 120V to the breaker is needed


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> They are talking about the load side neutral. The load neutral is not necessary if the tub is 240V but the 120V to the breaker is needed


Why?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Why? What do you mean--


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