# Grounding Alarm Panel..



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> I looked at putting a security system in a house that has ALL PEX tubing for the water lines..
> 
> I know it is hack to jump off the nearest electrical box and it is hack not to ground the system..
> 
> Any of you Alarm Installers come across this yet?? :blink:


 

Why would it be hack to come off the nearest receptacle?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Why does it need grounded? Does it need 120v? If so, is the house so old the circuits aren't grounded?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Why would it be hack to come off the nearest receptacle?


I asked an inspector about doing that and he said no..

It was before I joined the forums and I didn't ask him for a code section.. rule of thumb was NEVER question what an inspector tells you.. just do it

It was always run a ground to a heating or cw pipe..


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Why does it need grounded? Does it need 120v? If so, is the house so old the circuits aren't grounded?


Manufacture specs say the panel must be grounded and it is fed by a 16.5V plug in transformer


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## jusme123 (Dec 27, 2010)

B4T said:


> I looked at putting a security system in a house that has ALL PEX tubing for the water lines..
> 
> I know it is hack to jump off the nearest electrical box and it is hack not to ground the system..
> 
> Any of you Alarm Installers come across this yet?? :blink:


...did you run a ground with the 120v that supplies the alarm panel ?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

jusme123 said:


> ...did you run a ground with the 120v that supplies the alarm panel ?


Panel is fed by 16.5V plug in trans.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> Panel is fed by 16.5V plug in trans.


 

I think the inspector is wrong. You could run a wire to the closest receptacle and get a ground that way


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Run your bond wire to the service ground and use a split bolt or Ilsco clamp to make the connection. 
There is nothing guaranteeing that a cw pipe is actually bonded to ground at any given point, especially with repairs being made using pex nowadays. Gas lines are typically not bonded in older houses either.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

farlsincharge said:


> Run your bond wire to the service ground and use a split bolt or Ilsco clamp to make the connection.
> There is nothing guaranteeing that a cw pipe is actually bonded to ground at any given point, especially with repairs being made using pex nowadays. Gas lines are typically not bonded in older houses either.


 

Now you sound like the inspector, barking out orders. Got a reference that says we can't ground it from a receptacle?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So there's no ground in the 120v receptacle that feeds the 16.5v transformer?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So there's no ground in the 120v receptacle that feeds the 16.5v transformer?


The receptacle is grounded..


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

B4T said:


> The receptacle is grounded..


...


...And the transformer. The 2 conductors going up to the panel include no ground. so extend the ground up from the rec.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> The receptacle is grounded..


Then what's the problem?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Then what's the problem?


 

Mag, Lots of times the xfmr plug in. The only conductors going to the can are 12+ and 12-. So the huge metal can that houses the alarm system is sitting there ungrounded


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

"Connect the control panel Terminal 1 (earth ground) to a cold water pipe. Do not use a gas pipe, plastic pipe, or *AC ground connection"*

That was from Installation Guide...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, then.... you need to install a JJR clamp on the pex then. :laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> "Connect the control panel Terminal 1 (earth ground) to a cold water pipe. Do not use a gas pipe, plastic pipe, or *AC ground connection"*
> 
> That was from Installation Guide...


 
whose?.............


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Well, then.... you need to install a JJR clamp on the pex then. :laughing:


:laughing::no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> whose?.............


NAPCO.. page (6)

http://www.napcosecurity.com/images/panels/MA1000e_WI582F_INST.pdf


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I looked at putting a security system in a house that has ALL PEX tubing for the water lines..


The house has some grounding electrode somewhere, you can tie into the grounding electrode system at any location.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Mag, Lots of times the xfmr plug in. The only conductors going to the can are 12+ and 12-. So the huge metal can that houses the alarm system is sitting there ungrounded


Then he should install an offset nipple attached to the alarm box. No wires in the nipple, just used as a means to bond the metal alarm panel from the metal box. I dunno. :no:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The house has some grounding electrode somewhere, you can tie into the grounding electrode system at any location.


Alarm panel is going into upstairs MB closet.. service is on other side of house in garage..

That was my plan B.. but just a royal PIA to get there..


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Alarm panel is going into upstairs MB closet.. service is on other side of house in garage..
> 
> That was my plan B.. but just a royal PIA to get there..


That sucks and honestly I would not have planed on it when looking at the job.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Jump up into the attic, poke out below soffit, then down to a ground rod.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Jump up into the attic, poke out below soffit, then down to a ground rod.


He would be just as well off connecting to the PEX. :laughing:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Then he should install an offset nipple attached to the alarm box. No wires in the nipple, just used as a means to bond the metal alarm panel from the metal box. I dunno. :no:


 


Most of the time the receptacle is down at floor height, and the panel is up at eye height. If the receptacle is mounted to the can, yes, it is grounded. But many times, the installer never grounds the can and gets away with it.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Most of the time the receptacle is down at floor height, and the panel is up at eye height. If the receptacle is mounted to the can, yes, it is grounded. But many times, the installer never grounds the can and gets away with it.


Yeah I understand receptacles. So if they are low on the wall he should snake a cable from the existing receptacle up the wall to right underneath the panel and install a surface-mounted 4" square box and attach a nipple of some sort to bond the alarm "can".


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Yeah I understand receptacles. So if they are low on the wall he should snake a cable from the existing receptacle up the wall to right underneath the panel and install a surface-mounted 4" square box and attach a nipple of some sort to bond the alarm "can".


 
I think so


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Most of the time the receptacle is down at floor height, and the panel is up at eye height. If the receptacle is mounted to the can, yes, it is grounded. *But many times, the installer never grounds the can and gets away with it.*




Any time I work in a house that has a system installed already.. I give it a quick look..

Your right about the grounding.. even the big chains leave that step out..

Running wires behind the BB heat has always been an easy fix.. till now.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

The panels are engineered by people who feel it needs to have a ground reference for the dc circuits. And they also feel that the AC ground at a receptacle outlet is always a "dirty ground". They have been scolded about suggesting a ground rod (but I remember when they used to push this all the time). This is ingrained tradition thinking in that industry. It is similar to how much old electrical inspectors think that if you don't drive rods all over the place the electricity cannot get back to the center of the planet properly. So the panel makers want you to connect to the water pipe. This amuses me cause it is 50 times more likely to be carrying current than a receptacle outlet ground wire. But then again, I'm not smart enough to design the chips and circuits that it takes to construct a working alarm panel, so what do I know about it.....:blink:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> The panels are engineered by people who feel it needs to have a ground reference for the dc circuits. And they also feel that the AC ground at a receptacle outlet is always a "dirty ground". They have been scolded about suggesting a ground rod (but I remember when they used to push this all the time). This is ingrained tradition thinking in that industry. It is similar to how much old electrical inspectors think that if you don't drive rods all over the place the electricity cannot get back to the center of the planet properly. So the panel makers want you to connect to the water pipe. This amuses me cause it is 50 times more likely to be carrying current than a receptacle outlet ground wire. But then again, I'm not smart enough to design the chips and circuits that it takes to construct a working alarm panel, so what do I know about it.....:blink:


That brings up an interesting point.. ALL the components inside the panel are 12V DC..

My truck has a 12V DC system and a chit load more computer controlled components and last time I looked, my truck was not connected to a copper water pipe.. 

My point is.. is that ground really necessary for the system to function properly??


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Just do what I do, either run more than 2 wire cable to the wall wart and use an extra conductor as ground, or run shielded cable and use the drain wire as the ground. A ring terminal under the cover plate screw and all done.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Just do what I do, either run more than 2 wire cable to the wall wart and use an extra conductor as ground, or run shielded cable and use the drain wire as the ground. A ring terminal under the cover plate screw and all done.


Chit that actually makes sense ....... are you sure you are a roofer?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> That brings up an interesting point.. ALL the components inside the panel are 12V DC..
> 
> My truck has a 12V DC system and a chit load more computer controlled components and last time I looked, my truck was not connected to a copper water pipe..
> 
> My point is.. is that ground really necessary for the system to function properly??


Well there is one thing to it. Your truck circuits do not false alarm from random RF pulses on the conductors, but supposedly alarm panels will suffer from that. "according to the engineers who design the panels." I never saw a single incident of RF actually causing that problem in many many panels and systems I installed in the past, but every alarm tech will tell you you need to watch out for it, cause that is what he learned from somebody else...... does any of this sound sorta familiar???


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Chit that actually makes sense ....... are you sure you are a roofer?


:laughing::laughing:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

B4T said:


> "Connect the control panel Terminal 1 (earth ground) to a cold water pipe. Do not use a gas pipe, plastic pipe, or *AC ground connection"*
> 
> That was from Installation Guide...


Since I don't know what a AC ground connection is I'm going to say the ground in the receptacle is a EGC and bonded back to the water and or available GEC's :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Just do what I do, either run more than 2 wire cable to the wall wart and use an extra conductor as ground, or run shielded cable and use the drain wire as the ground. A ring terminal under the cover plate screw and all done.


I'm still using the receptacle ground and that is against what the book says.. 

I think I am just not going to run a ground on this job and move on.. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> I'm still using the receptacle ground and that is against what the book says..


The book can go suck it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Since I don't know what a AC ground connection is I'm going to say the ground in the receptacle is a EGC and bonded back to the water and or available GEC's :thumbsup:


The transformer has a metal clip that attachés to the plate screw.. I got to rip a transformer apart and see what the metal is connected too.. :thumbsup:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> The transformer has a metal clip that attachés to the plate screw.. I got to rip a transformer apart and see what the metal is connected too.. :thumbsup:


You can ohm it but I bet it just grounds the tranny inside, I have yet to see one of those that had a grounded secondary.


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## Keyrick (Nov 10, 2010)

It probably has more to do with the telephone interface of the unit, and it's reference to ground, than the rest of the system operation or safety.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> You can ohm it


That there is some fancy talken and we don't do nunna that fancy shmancy stuff round here, we be ripen stuff apart


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> You can ohm it but I bet it just grounds the tranny inside, I have yet to see one of those that had a grounded secondary.


DAM.. went out to the garage to check and the tap is plastic..


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> That there is some fancy talken and we don't do nunna that fancy shmancy stuff round here, we be ripen stuff apart


:laughing:

Hey B4T, if you rip it apart carefully you can 'kote it back together and use it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Hey B4T, if you rip it apart carefully you can 'kote it back together and use it.


I got a 100 lb. bench vice with 8" jaws that I could use to squeeze the top on till it dries.. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I got a 100 lb. bench vice with 8" jaws that I could use to squeeze the top on till it dries.. :laughing:


:thumbsup:

Destruction is always fun.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> I'm still using the receptacle ground and that is against what the book says..
> 
> I think I am just not going to run a ground on this job and move on.. :thumbsup:


 What if the recptacle was on a home run from the panel i don't see how that stupid book could say no to that


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

What the hell would the alarm panel care whether it was tied to the grounding electrode system or an equipment ground?

Is this supposed to be lightning protection for the panel? Asinine. :no: I'd run a EGC to the receptacle in a heartbeat and I'd sleep a better than if I bonding to a damn water pipe.

-John


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm thinking you ground the secondary on those wall warts and you got yourself a code violation.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> I'm still using the receptacle ground and that is against what the book says..
> 
> I think I am just not going to run a ground on this job and move on.. :thumbsup:



If the book says not to attach to a ground wire, then perhaps you can tell me where in the house a ground wire is?

I think you have three conductors going to the receptacle..... an _ungrounded_, a _grounded_, and a _grounding_. I doubt you have a _ground_ wire there, so go for it.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> What if the recptacle was on a home run from the panel i don't see how that stupid book could say no to that


I always used to respect what the book says, but this group has corrupted my thinking.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If the book says not to attach to a ground wire, then perhaps you can tell me where in the house a ground wire is?
> 
> I think you have three conductors going to the receptacle..... an _ungrounded_, a _grounded_, and a _grounding_. I doubt you have a _ground_ wire there, so go for it.


Even better.. I am going to call Tech. Support on Monday..:thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

OK, B4T, here's how to properly ground this alarm panel.

Run all the wiring out into the yard. Drill a hole in the panel, and run the wires into that hole. Scotchkote all the connections. Dig a hole in the ground the exact same depth as the alarm panel. Place the alarm panel in the ground, making sure it isn't below grade.

Make a map of where the alarm panel is, taking careful measurements. Allow grass to grow on top of alarm panel so the burglars can't find it without the map.

*Now*,......... it's _grounded_. :thumbsup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> OK, B4T, here's how to properly ground this alarm panel.
> 
> Run all the wiring out into the yard. Drill a hole in the panel, and run the wires into that hole. Scotchkote all the connections. Dig a hole in the ground the exact same depth as the alarm panel. Place the alarm panel in the ground, making sure it isn't below grade.
> 
> ...


Could you draw me a map for that installation??.. :whistling2:

(to other members, that will keep him busy till next year) :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> Could you draw me a map for that installation??.. :whistling2:
> 
> (to other members, that will keep him busy till next year) :whistling2:













What do you want me to do for the next 4 hours and 9 minutes?​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I want it color coded.. if you don't mind..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

B4T said:


> I want it color coded.. if you don't mind..


No problem.

White = paper.
Black = ink.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> I always used to respect what the book says, but this group has corrupted my thinking.. :laughing::thumbup::laughing:


:laughing: It makes you wonder if they want their panel grounded why did they not make the cord with the EGC in it


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

480sparky said:


> What do you want me to do for the next 4 hours and 9 minutes?​


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing: It makes you wonder if they want their panel grounded why did they not make the cord with the EGC in it


Because then you are using the receptacle ground, but I will ask the lucky tech guy about that.. :thumbup:

They are based right here in Amityville, Long Island.. :thumbsup:

None of that AKBAR poor English speaking you get with HP tech support..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> Because then you are using the receptacle ground, but I will ask the lucky tech guy about that.. :thumbup:
> 
> They are based right here in Amityville, Long Island.. :thumbsup:
> 
> None of that AKBAR poor English speaking you get with HP tech support..





> None of that AKBAR poor English speaking you get with HP tech support


.

When i get those guys on the phone thats when the yelling starts:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

You can treat it like those old washing machine grounds( the green wire with crimpem eyelet that would attach to plate screw.


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