# Possible service open neutral trouble shoot



## Choochooleather (Feb 28, 2014)

I am at my wits end here. 

Empty house. New owner is a flipper so no one to talk to about the history of the house or electrical system. Old panel was a 200 divided main disconnect. Was full with several double taps so I advised the owner to switch it out to a main breaker 40 space. I went through tripping circuits to lable everything and then removed the old and installed the new. Put AFCI breakers in the bedroom circuits and the correct breakers for everything. 

Replaced the double 10awg runs to the hvac system to the correct 6awg wire and the helper was suppose to add a 4 wire tombstone to the stove wire. He told me he was finished but he forgot about adding the outlet. 

I turn on the main and the stove breaker trips. So I turn the main off, reset the stove breaker and turn the main back on. This time I get a loud buzzing and after a second I manually open the main. I run up to the kitchen to find the stove wires stripped back and all touching. I separate them and go back to the panel. I open the stove breaker and close the main. All appears good.

Now there are three circuits in the panel that I need to identify. So I start going through light switches and what not to short them out. My tic tells me there is proximity voltage but when I try to short them hot to neutral I get a tiny spark and that's it. I go back to the panel to see what's tripped and the AFCI breakers have tripped. 

Two AFCI breaker that turn out to be on the same leg as the circuit I was trying to trip tripped... But the breaker for the circuit I was shorting did not trip. So I removed the ACFIs from the panel as I already had those circuits traced. I go back to that first switch to try to trip is again, this time I take my vom with me. I check it across the hot and neutral for voltage. I get 119.

I then open a different switch next to it in a different box and different circuit. I tested across the first hot and the new neutral and still got 119 volts. So I go back to the panel and shut everything off except one breaker at a time until I identify the breaker this circuit is on. I ohm out the line to make sure it isn't a splice and it ohms out fine. So I reconnect it. 

I turn breakers back on and go to a different circuit. Outlets this time. I know what breaker this is on, so I short the outlet with a jumper, but I also have an outlet tester in the outlet. The tester shows it is connected correctly until I short it, then the testers lights go dark, but as soon as I remove the jumper the lights come back on. 

Real close to going bald now.... Not just on one circuit... So I go back to the panel. I connect a jumper to a 15a breaker and install to the right leg. I test the voltage between the jumper and the panel case as the case is bonded to the neutral and the house earth. It reads 124. So I measure between the jumper and the neutral bus; 124. Jumper and the neutral feeder wire.; 124 volts. So I take the jumper and touch the case, nothing. The neutral bus, nothing. The neutral feeder, nothing. I then add another 15a breaker to the left leg with a jumper and to leg to leg and I get spark and both breakers trip. Measuring across both legs I get 240 volts and the trip was what I was hoping for. 

In all of this I am getting the neutral from the meter is open. I am measuring 120 on each leg because of the house earth, but because the neutral is not working it will not short the breakers into an overload. 

Is this what you are getting? What is my next step? I can't open the meter can because there is a lock on it... Do I call the power company and get them to check for a open neutral on their side? 

What I really don't get is that the neutral appeared to be working with the previous panel. I was able to trip the breakers no problem. Now the neutral is open as it appears. 

I have never run into something like this before.


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## jbfan (Jan 22, 2007)

I hope your insurance is paid up!!

Are you an electrician??

Pretty dumb to admit that you have shorted hot to hot and hot to neutral as a way to finding the breaker.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Choochooleather said:


> I am at my wits end here.


That's all I read.

I can help you.

Edit your post and put much white space in in (paragraphs, etc.)

I will then read it.

A WALL of text is illegal on this forum.


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

jbfan said:


> I hope your insurance is paid up!!
> 
> Are you an electrician??
> 
> Pretty dumb to admit that you have shorted hot to hot and hot to neutral as a way to finding the breaker.


 I almost asked that the first time I read that post bt I was hesitant I thought maybe its ok in the part of the world he comes from thanks for putting it straight. 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

hey friend that's not a good way of troubleshooting shorting hot and neutral
you might cause injury to yourself and the house wiring might seriously be damaged.I thought they teach this in school 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


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## bkmichael65 (Mar 25, 2013)

A good way to make sure a breaker won't ever trip again is to short it out like that. I can't really make heads or tails out of your post, but one sure way to check for an open neutral is to shut off all breakers except for a single 120 volt load and clamp your meter on the service neutral and check for current


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

To the OP:

First off, I edited your post to make it easier to read. 

Second, you are in way over your head and need to get your Master Electrician to help you out..and teach you better work methods. 

NEVER, EVER short out ANYTHING in the course of troubleshooting or circuit tracing. Not only is it dangerous, but you can easily start fires or create a fault condition that may not get cleared by fuses or breakers. There is also the arc flash hazard. 

The problem appears to be an open service neutral. Check all connections, and if all connections on your side are good, then contact the POCO to check things on their end.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

I seriously question if you've been properly trained to do your job.

You sure you're an electrician?


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## JRenzoni (Feb 22, 2014)

This is a scary post...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll wager no MBJ after the panel swap

~CS~


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I was taught to short to ground to find the breaker . . . I dont do it much any more. I have seen one breaker go bad from being shorted repeatedly.


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

hey just read the OP profile he is a city licensed journeyman 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

nickson said:


> hey just read the OP profile he is a city licensed journeyman
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


And my hips don't lie, so I must be Sharkira.


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## Maximumbob (May 24, 2013)

nickson said:


> hey just read the OP profile he is a city licensed journeyman
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


You read it wrong. It says he used to be a member of Journey.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

jbfan said:


> Are you an electrician??


I think it's obvious that he's not. No real electrician would do that kind of hack troubleshooting.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Another long post I should have never polluted my brain with. The lack of proper training is gonna catch up to this guy. Jeez! What a trip! Pun intended.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

I'm just waiting for "Come on guys take it easy on me! I'm industrial; I don't normally do this stuff! You guys wouldn't know what to do with a stick of rigid conduit!"


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> I'm just waiting for "Come on guys take it easy on me! I'm industrial; I don't normally do this stuff! You guys wouldn't know what to do with a stick of rigid conduit!"


Your killing my Saturday buzz. Even with a quote of a quote.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> Your killing my Saturday buzz. Even with a quote of a quote.


English please?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> English please?


I'm getting drunk and your ruining it. Are ya pickin up what I'm layin down?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Chrisibew440 said:


> I'm getting drunk and your ruining it. Are ya pickin up what I'm layin down?


Awww, I'm really sorry. Would you like to talk about your feelings some more?


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Awww, I'm really sorry. Would you like to talk about your feelings some more?


We can keep going but you do realize I'm not serious right?

My feelings are numb right now by the way.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Awww, I'm really sorry. Would you like to talk about your feelings some more?


 Is "constipated" a feeling? That's the best I can do.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Big John said:


> Is "constipated" a feeling? That's the best I can do.


All you need are some suicide wings.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> All you need are some suicide wings.


 I could go for them. I got roped into trying some spicy Alfredo for dinner because I like spicy, I like Alfredo, sounds awesome. It was just a couple jalapenos sliced up in some fettuccine. Weak.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Big John said:


> I could go for them. I got roped into trying some spicy Alfredo for dinner because I like spicy, I like Alfredo, sounds awesome. It was just a couple jalapenos sliced up in some fettuccine. Weak.


aye just add enough Filipino jungle peppers to it to make the majic smoke roll out yer arse and you'll be good to go:laughing:

seriously to the op.
whoever taught you to short connections to find a breaker needs to get his arse kicked over his shoulders. its damn dangerous.

its far easier to* shut off the main*, lock it out, and use a tracer
_I used to have a homemade tracer consisting of a motorcycle battery, 12 volt lamp, and a blinker_. worked very good at that too!:laughing:
but they have test equip out there that does the same thing.


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## michaelpwalton1 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Service Open Neutral ?*

To: Choochooleather,
I am aware that your original post is from February and that by now the problem has been resolved or you are off the job. 

However, this may help you or others who come across this same problem (as I did not see anyone offered you a suggestion or remedy, just a hard time .

I had a job with similar problems (a long time ago). The service was a 200 Amp with aluminum service cable. The cable looked to be in very good condition. I remade the service taps and checked out all the termination points and remade them. Replaced an old existing ground pipe ground rod with a copper clad one, still no help. Whenever a 220 Volt load came on line, things went haywire. Eventually, after pulling just about all my hair out, I called PECO for support.

Peco came out, checked their incoming line and told me that the service cable was bad. I of course thought the technician was off base. 

He looked up at the service head, shook his head, and then followed the service cable, which was a very long run. He noticed that the cable had a sharp downward bend at a point where it went around and over a corner of the building (not my installation). 

He pulled a pocket knife out of his pocket and to my surprise, cut the damn outer jacket . Then the water started pouring out . After the water stopped, he sliced the jacket back further, exposing a section of the neutral that was completely corroded and all but open.

He turned to me and said, "There is your problem", I see it all the time when the service head lets rain water in.

I replaced the service cable and all was well.

Now this begs the question: Was he a better electrician than me? I was a licensed Master Electrician and he was a utility service guy? My answer would be that he works on service drops and laterals day in and day out. He may see this problem once a week or more. I on the other hand, after 30 + years in the field came across this particular unseen damage only once.

We all have an opportunity to learn something new every day. When you stop learning, you stop growing.

To all the people who verbally beat this poster up instead of offering constructive advice, your memory must be far too short. I am sure that I have done things the hard way in my career and made more dumb ass mistakes then I would be willing to admit.

Lighten up a little .


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## circuitman1 (Mar 14, 2013)

i agree with mike! we are all here to learn something from each other, not beat each other up.even if it's a new member. we all have our niche, maybe some more than others.:whistling2:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I think most replies were more concerned with the way he was troubleshooting. What happens when he finds that breaker that won't trip and his jumper gets welded on, the insulation melts and he is now hooked up to the power. Did he get a hard time? Yes, was it to try and protect him? Yes again. Electricity is like flying, mistakes can kill you!


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