# Dual Function Combination AFCI and GFCI Breakers



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

To those wondering how to meet afci, gfci and readily accessible:


http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=356297166&p_File_Name=0760HO1401.pdf



http://www.schneider-electric.com/p...2275-homeline-dual-function-circuit-breakers/

Just don't ask me on the price. Anyone know?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

I was quoted $55 for the QO


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Can we assume these justify the savings on GFCI receptacles ?


~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Can we assume these justify the savings on GFCI receptacles ?
> 
> 
> ~CS~


That's what Im wondering, I think they would though considering the dishwasher also has to be GFCI and AFCI protected $55 over 40 plus the cost of a blank face/box/cover sounds justifiable to me.

Anyone know the Homelines?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> I was quoted $55 for the QO


The plug in or the pig tail? Im hoping these are cheaper than an AFCI breaker with GFCI outlet.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> That's what Im wondering, I think they would though considering the dishwasher also has to be GFCI and AFCI protected $55 over 40 plus the cost of a blank face/box/cover sounds justifiable to me.
> 
> Anyone know the Homelines?


I'm wondering how 1699 ended up, is it 30ma, or lower now?


http://www.combinationafci.com/resources/nfpa_proposal__210.12_30mA.pdf

~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I don't see myself using these in place of traditional counter top receptacles. I can see myself using them for disposals and dishwashers. I think for the fridge I would be inclined to go with a dead front somewhere close to it so no one needs to go to the basement.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I don't see myself using these in place of traditional counter top receptacles. I can see myself using them for disposals and dishwashers. I think for the fridge I would be inclined to go with a dead front somewhere close to it so no one needs to go to the basement.


I thought the fridge was exempt?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

meadow said:


> I thought the fridge was exempt?


There is no requirement, that I know, in the NEC for a refrigerator to be GFCI protected.

The receptacle outlet may require it in a kitchen if the receptacle is within 6 feet of the sink. 2014 NEC.

The '11 specifically excepted the same receptacle that the '14 now requires protection for.

Pete


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The 2014 requires afci and gfci for dishwasher. The refrigerator must be afci but does not have to be gfci unless it is within 6' of the sink. 

The new dual afci/gfci breakers are made to be gfci- 6 ma not gfp- 30 ma. So if you install one of these you don't have to worry about squeezing an afci or gfci recep. somewhere accessible.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2014 requires afci and gfci for dishwasher. The refrigerator must be afci but does not have to be gfci unless it is within 6' of the sink.
> 
> The new dual afci/gfci breakers are made to be *gfci- 6 ma not gfp- 30 ma*. So if you install one of these you don't have to worry about squeezing an afci or gfci recep. somewhere accessible.


If this is a listed thing then it's 2-20 combos for kitch countertop & dining rooms , no gfci receptacle outlets required from now on

BTW, i'm on a GE fling lately (as if there is a dif) , anyone know where they are marketing wise?

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> If this is a listed thing then it's 2-20 combos for kitch countertop & dining rooms , no gfci receptacle outlets required from now on
> 
> BTW, i'm on a GE fling lately (as if there is a dif) , anyone know where they are marketing wise?
> 
> ~CS~


GE made one years ago but stop so I guess they will have to pull it out of the closet. Not sure when that will happen


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2014 requires afci and gfci for dishwasher. The *refrigerator must be afci* but does not have to be gfci unless it is within 6' of the sink.
> 
> The new dual afci/gfci breakers are made to be gfci- 6 ma not gfp- 30 ma. So if you install one of these you don't have to worry about squeezing an afci or gfci recep. somewhere accessible.


Even if this is a dedicated circuit? I can picture the HO owner already. :no:


I hope these have any nuisance tripping worked out on them.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Pardon my stupidity but where is the chsnge requiring gfci on dishwasher circuits in dwelling units?


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Disregard, I just found it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> If this is a listed thing then it's 2-20 combos for kitch countertop & dining rooms , no gfci receptacle outlets required from now on
> 
> BTW, i'm on a GE fling lately (as if there is a dif) , anyone know where they are marketing wise?
> 
> ~CS~


I foresee an influx in free afci breakers from customers asking to have them swapped to a standard breaker after they lose their first load of groceries.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The world turns on a paper bearing greased with _{expletive deletive that rhyms with full pit}_ Doc

That said, up the ante' to whole house afci main breakers, and then call us for a $$$

IE~ You want safety, how much you $$$ got ?

~C_(ya can't beat 'em join 'em)_S~


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I was told that Square D - was not manufacturing those dual rated afci /gfci breakers as they couldn't get them to work correctly. I may be incorrect


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> The world turns on a paper bearing greased with _{expletive deletive that rhyms with full pit}_ Doc
> 
> That said, up the ante' to whole house afci main breakers, and then call us for a $$$
> 
> ...


In my humble opinion an AFCI main breaker would be the biggest pain in the ass out there. Do you really want your entire house shut down due to a bad lamp?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> I was told that Square D - was not manufacturing those dual rated afci /gfci breakers as they couldn't get them to work correctly. I may be incorrect



I'll let you know after I install a couple tomorrow.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> I'll let you know after I install a couple tomorrow.


I hope you don't have a "call back". 

Pete


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> I was told that Square D - was not manufacturing those dual rated afci /gfci breakers as they couldn't get them to work correctly. I may be incorrect


Likely not true as that didn't stop them from manufacturing AFCI breakers


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## mertabird (Nov 14, 2013)

meadow said:


> To those wondering how to meet afci, gfci and readily accessible:
> 
> 
> http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=356297166&p_File_Name=0760HO1401.pdf
> ...


did not realize how many places we are required to have dual protection. Laundryrooms, kitchens. I don't understand why they didn't go ahead and add afci protections for bathrooms and garages? Just go ahead and make us use them for the whole house.

Good to know they offer these breakers now.

Anyone ever try to put a dishwasher, washing machine, or garbage disposal on an AFCI? How'd it go?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Schneider should make these in Stab Lok. Never had any nuisance tripping with Stab Loks. Those things would hold during a nuclear meltdown. Too bad they discontinued them.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Schneider should make these in Stab Lok. Never had any nuisance tripping with Stab Loks. Those things would hold during a nuclear meltdown. Too bad they discontinued them.


Arent they know Homeline Canada?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The new combo afci/gfci breakers are listed for $70 at a local supplier.


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> The new combo afci/gfci breakers are listed for $70 at a local supplier.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


They know how to profit:whistling2:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

meadow said:


> Arent they know Homeline Canada?


No, Federal Pioneer were virtually the same as your Federal Pacific Stab Loks. We get the same Homeline junk you do.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> No, Federal Pioneer were virtually the same as your Federal Pacific Stab Loks. We get the same Homeline junk you do.


Federal Pioneer went to Schneider which continued to make them for some time. My question was those got replaced with Homeline recently?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

meadow said:


> Federal Pioneer went to Schneider which continued to make them for some time. My question was those got replaced with Homeline recently?


Homeline replaced FPE here about three years ago. Stab Lok breakers are still made. Schneider makes good money of them. I was going to buy a couple of Stab Lok 15A 2P GFI breakers. Supplier quoted me $275.00 each. Saved a ton of dough by putting in a sub and using Eaton.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

99cents said:


> Homeline replaced FPE here about three years ago. Stab Lok breakers are still made. Schneider makes good money of them. I was going to buy a couple of Stab Lok 15A 2P GFI breakers. Supplier quoted me $275.00 each. Saved a ton of dough by putting in a sub and using Eaton.


Now I understand:thumbsup:
Hearing the the stab lock design went extinct made my hour.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> They know how to profit:whistling2:


That's retail price. I'm sure counter price is a real bargain at $60.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> That's retail price. I'm sure counter price is a real bargain at $60.


:laughing: If they calculated the price an electrician would pay for a standard AFCI+GFCI then raised the price of it only to the point its slightly lower than the proir (more like saving labor only:laughing people would still buy them while suare D makes an extra $30 just for having "dual" on the carton:no:


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## Alcospark (Mar 17, 2014)

Does Siemens have any plans for dual breakers in the future? My supply house sells Siemens which IMO is much better than square d. It's the little things like the panel cover having a catch on the back so when it's completely unscrewed it hangs without falling on your toes.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

:001_huh::no:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MTW said:


> That's retail price. I'm sure counter price is a real bargain at $60.


Not here in Bendover, Canada  .


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

mertabird said:


> did not realize how many places we are required to have dual protection. Laundryrooms, kitchens. I don't understand why they didn't go ahead and add afci protections for bathrooms and garages? Just go ahead and make us use them for the whole house.
> 
> Good to know they offer these breakers now.
> 
> Anyone ever try to put a dishwasher, washing machine, or garbage disposal on an AFCI? How'd it go?


They've been expanding AFCI requirements bit by bit for the last few code cycles. We'll see what the 2017 brings regarding bathrooms and garages.

Haven't run a dishwasher, washing machine, or disposal on an AFCI but I don't see what the issue would be. They've been on the market for quite a while now, most of the kinks with nuisance tripping and such are worked out at this point.



Alcospark said:


> Does Siemens have any plans for dual breakers in the future? My supply house sells Siemens which IMO is much better than square d. It's the little things like the panel cover having a catch on the back so when it's completely unscrewed it hangs without falling on your toes.


I'm wondering about this too. Siemens, Eaton (CH and BR), etc. I imagine if Square D has their dual function breakers on the market, the other manufacturers should be racing to do the same.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> :laughing: If they calculated the price an electrician would pay for a standard AFCI+GFCI then raised the price of it only to the point its slightly lower than the proir (more like saving labor only:laughing people would still buy them while suare D makes an extra $30 just for having "dual" on the carton:no:


economically ? , use a few of these to feed subs>









~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

erics37 said:


> They've been expanding AFCI requirements bit by bit for the last few code cycles. We'll see what the 2017 brings regarding bathrooms and garages.
> Haven't run a dishwasher, washing machine, or disposal on an AFCI but I don't see what the issue would be. They've been on the market for quite a while now, most of the kinks with nuisance tripping and such are worked out at this point.
> 
> .


Selling an ave of $1000 per home _'enhanced protection' _ , is the real issue for EC's Eric>>>>










~CS~


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The real question is whether they'll start asking for all of this on a panel upgrade. So far they haven't been asking for any AFCI during service changes here. That would really make it difficult to sell. The other manufacturers will follow suit. They have to.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The upgrade inclusion was a big fight in Vt , but i suspect their proliferation will eventually affect every avenue they can possibly coerce cmp2 into.

Perhaps only then will they realize they _do not_ address the chief incendiary culprit of our trade.

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

99cents said:


> Not here in Bendover, Canada  .


How much do you pay for typical Square D products?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

meadow said:


> :laughing: If they calculated the price an electrician would pay for a standard AFCI+GFCI then raised the price of it only to the point its slightly lower than the proir (more like saving labor only:laughing people would still buy them while suare D makes an extra $30 just for having "dual" on the carton:no:


At least we know the GFCI portion will work.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> At least we know the GFCI portion will work.


:laughing: That too


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> economically ? , use a few of these to feed subs>
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good idea, but how will the average HO know how to find the effected circuit?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> Good idea, but how will the average HO know how to find the effected circuit?


I would say it fairly easy, just turn off all, then keep flippin' 'til the main pops Meadow

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I would say it fairly easy, just turn off all, then keep flippin' 'til the main pops Meadow
> 
> ~CS~


But if its an intermittent arc fault? Although your method will save a lot on arc faults


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Selling an ave of $1000 per home _'enhanced protection' _ , is the real issue for EC's Eric>>>>
> 
> ~CS~


Not my problem :thumbup::laughing: I haven't wired a house in years. Last time I did it was still just bedrooms only.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Not my problem :thumbup::laughing: I haven't wired a house in years. Last time I did it was still just bedrooms only.


Playing devils advocate... AFCIs might one day go to commercial:furious: Lets hope they don't.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Selling an ave of $1000 per home _'enhanced protection' _ , is the real issue for EC's Eric>>>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, you're nuts. That's overkill to the extreme.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Dude, you're nuts. That's overkill to the extreme.


Vermont is nuts , being either the first or last to adopt things MT

But what you see in _'2014 compliant'_ , rolling downhill & gaining speed your way....:whistling2: 


~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> But if its an intermittent arc fault? Although your method will save a lot on arc faults


True that _anything_ tripping intermittent can make life complicated Meadow

But we can rest assured that, _diagnostically_ speaking , it will be a parallel, _not_ series event

And nothing we can install remotely in the form of an enhanced OCDP is going to save anyone from a _glowing_ connection 


~CS~


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## DavidSattero (Jul 8, 2014)

I see a lot of confusion about refrigerators and GFCI protection. From what I can read from NEC 210.8(A)(6)(a) "Where the receptacles are installed to serve countertop surfaces". So if the refrigerator receptacle is on a circuit that does not serve the countertop (i.e. being behind the refrigerator while still readily accessible as with Subzero refrigerators and other high end ones) then it does not need to be GFCI protected even if that receptacle is within 6' of the sink. Only AFCI protection would be required.



Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2014 requires afci and gfci for dishwasher. The refrigerator must be afci but does not have to be gfci unless it is within 6' of the sink.
> 
> The new dual afci/gfci breakers are made to be gfci- 6 ma not gfp- 30 ma. So if you install one of these you don't have to worry about squeezing an afci or gfci recep. somewhere accessible.


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## StevieScott (Jul 26, 2014)

manchestersparky said:


> In my humble opinion an AFCI main breaker would be the biggest pain in the ass out there. Do you really want your entire house shut down due to a bad lamp?


I believe that AFCI technology is a wonderful step forward for fire protection. I also believe that it is better served for usage in existing buildings with older wiring.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

StevieScott said:


> I believe that AFCI technology is a wonderful step forward for fire protection. I also believe that it is better served for usage in existing buildings with older wiring.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I went through this last week. New house with two generations of BR breakers. New Kenmore vacuum. Vacuum trips breakers on multiple circuits. I repeated the problem once. It seems to occur on older version with GFCI component. Newer smaller version without GFCI doesn't seem to be a problem. Megged and found nothing to indicate pinched wire etc. No ground on vacuum, two wire cord. Think its software in older version AFCI.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

StevieScott said:


> I believe that AFCI technology is a wonderful step forward for fire protection. I also believe that it is better served for usage in existing buildings with older wiring.



:laughing::laughing:

How? That's what they say but to you actually believe that? You must be an expert in paschen's law then, please educate me.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> I went through this last week. New house with two generations of BR breakers. New Kenmore vacuum. Vacuum trips breakers on multiple circuits. I repeated the problem once. It seems to occur on older version with GFCI component. Newer smaller version without GFCI doesn't seem to be a problem. Megged and found nothing to indicate pinched wire etc. No ground on vacuum, two wire cord. Think its software in older version AFCI.


 
New software is just less sensitive, masks the inability to distinguish normal from abnormal arc faults.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Fine with me.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> I foresee an influx in free afci breakers from customers asking to have them swapped to a standard breaker after they lose their first load of groceries.


I see a need for power loss alarms for kitchen refrigerators

with programmable I tune alarm.also with smart phone alarm to let you know when power is lost on your kitchen refrigerator

:laughing:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> Playing devils advocate... AFCIs might one day go to commercial:furious: Lets hope they don't.


I hope they do. Then and only then will the flood of complaints about the reliability of them reach any ears. So far its only resi and we all know nobody gives a rats ass about anybody who works as a resi sparky anyway, cause by all measures here they are not even electricians. They don't post pipe pictures.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Customer of mine. I rewired her house. NEVER had a peep of problems for over two years with any afci tripping for any reason. Then she gets pv installed on the roof. Suddenly afci's are tripping daily. PV company's head electrician starts telling her the usual b.s. you hear from guys who's only real contact with afci's so far has been they fondled the packages containing them at the Home Depot once or twice and then post at all the electrical forums they can that they have never ever had one trip on them on any of their jobs..... must be a neutral touching ground someplace in the circuits, or shared neutrals or staples driven too hard. All the baloney you can think of. I go there , turn off the main to their system, tell the nice lady to see to it that it stays that way for a whole week , and guess what? No tripping afci branch breakers in the house electrical system. Turned it back on and presto- false trips. Has the big shot PV Company that does big shot tv and radio ads and lots of public good works and all the trappings, admitted to any fault or changed any panels or done anything? Hell no. So the dilemma is - which crappy electronics to blame, the PV system ones or the ark fault system crappy electronics ? Heads or Tails? By the way, I'm on her clock with the tab running all while for this stuff. Who pays her back, PV or in her case- GE?


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

*210.8(A)(7) within 6' sink outside edge*



DavidSattero said:


> I see a lot of confusion about refrigerators and GFCI protection. From what I can read from NEC 210.8(A)(6)(a) "Where the receptacles are installed to serve countertop surfaces". So if the refrigerator receptacle is on a circuit that does not serve the countertop (i.e. being behind the refrigerator while still readily accessible as with Subzero refrigerators and other high end ones) then it does not need to be GFCI protected even if that receptacle is within 6' of the sink. Only AFCI protection would be required.


David Sattero,
Here is a heads up on your interpretation. An inspector may read this differently. Reason is...there is no guarantee that the refrigerator shell does not have a frame/chassis ground fault (I.e. or non-grounding two prong cap.). Touching the sink and refrigerator at the same time could be fatal...hence the unreachable 6' distance requirement.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Customer of mine. I rewired her house. NEVER had a peep of problems for over two years with any afci tripping for any reason. Then she gets pv installed on the roof. Suddenly afci's are tripping daily. PV company's head electrician starts telling her the usual b.s. you hear from guys who's only real contact with afci's so far has been they fondled the packages containing them at the Home Depot once or twice and then post at all the electrical forums they can that they have never ever had one trip on them on any of their jobs..... must be a neutral touching ground someplace in the circuits, or shared neutrals or staples driven too hard. All the baloney you can think of. I go there , turn off the main to their system, tell the nice lady to see to it that it stays that way for a whole week , and guess what? No tripping afci branch breakers in the house electrical system. Turned it back on and presto- false trips. Has the big shot PV Company that does big shot tv and radio ads and lots of public good works and all the trappings, admitted to any fault or changed any panels or done anything? Hell no. So the dilemma is - which crappy electronics to blame, the PV system ones or the ark fault system crappy electronics ? Heads or Tails? By the way, I'm on her clock with the tab running all while for this stuff. Who pays her back, PV or in her case- GE?


PV's are required to be afci'd in the 2014 Mac

~CS~


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