# What is a romex standoff



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AKA Stack Staple.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480's right, but if you read the pack, most manufacturers still state conductors are subject to derating. Go figure

310.15 (b) (2) (A) is where he gets this from in case you wanna read it. The word "stacked" is in the description, 

so IMO,,,I really wish the manufacturer would drop that name, and call it cable "seperator". It would make much more sense. 

"cable seperator",,,to be used to seperate and ,maintain air space for muticonductor cables stacked together for more than 24"


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

IMO The stackers purpose has nothing to do with derating, they are needed when you have too many cables on a stud to maintain the 1.25" set back.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

They knocked NM down to the 60 degree table and they want wires "stacked" and derated.. when is minimum #12 going to be the standard :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> ........ when is minimum #12 going to be the standard :no:


When all boxes are required to be PVC and buried in the back yard, full of Scotchcoat. :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

den said:


> I had a rough in house inspection today and the inspector told me to quit stapelling romex together on a stud as it will derate it ............


Wow. He really told you that? 
So he is enforcing his own 4-conductor derating rule is he?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> When all boxes are required to be PVC and buried in the back yard, full of Scotchcoat. :laughing:


Your not paying attention to detail :no:

The Scotchkote is to keep the splices dry, not keep water out of the PVC boxes.

Water will get into any PVC box buried at grade level, but having a 2" minimum sand base will allow for proper drainage :thumbsup:


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

we all know that 14ga THHN at 90 degrees C is 25 amps (35 in free air). I have never seen the logic of the 60 degree for romex rule. 

In light of the amperage chart for 90 degrees Celsius, which is really not that hot, derating a stacked piece of romex at 60 degrees C because of staples sounds pretty foolish.

I would love to see someone TRY to stack 3 pieces of romex in such a manner as to compound heat at 15 amps per run.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> .................Water will get into any PVC box buried at grade level, but having a 2" minimum sand base will allow for proper drainage :thumbsup:


But your boxes are buried below grade..........:laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> But your boxes are buried below grade..........:laughing:


We had lots of rain.. high water table


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> We had lots of rain.. high water table



Water table has nothing to do with grade............:whistling2:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> the inspector told me to quit stapelling romex together on a stud as it will derate it


 
I'd laugh at him. I've seen a LOT of old work and I've *never* had or seen an issue from ANY type of cable bundling/grouping. I've seen countless cables damaged by over zealous staplers though.

I've been using this method since the 70's. Never been red tagged. It keeps the romex in place/away from the drywall, it's 100% recycled material (it's sheath only), it's always in stock and it's *free* :thumbup:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I'd laugh at him. I've seen a LOT of old work and I've *never* had or seen an issue from ANY type of cable bundling/grouping. I've seen countless cables damaged by over zealous staplers though.
> 
> I've been using this method since the 70's. Never been red tagged. It keeps the romex in place/away from the drywall, it's 100% recycled material (it's sheath only), it's always in stock and it's *free* :thumbup:


I do the same thing using a wire tie, BUT those Carlon boxes ruins a fine looking job.. :jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> I do the same thing using a wire tie, BUT those Carlon boxes ruins a fine looking job.. :jester:



Yeah, but it's illegaly screwed to the stud using gyp screws..... so two wrongs make a right. :laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Are those carlon boxes?:whistling2:


to late.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Speedy Petey said:


> Wow. He really told you that?
> So he is enforcing his own 4-conductor derating rule is he?


I'd raise holy hell over that.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

danickstr said:


> we all know that 14ga THHN at 90 degrees C is 25 amps (35 in free air). I have never seen the logic of the 60 degree for romex rule.


14awg thhn....romex is rated at 90C only, but this is mostly semantics.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, but it's illegaly screwed to the stud using gyp screws..... so two wrongs make a right. :laughing:


Dam nice find.. those new spectacles were worth the money


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## den (Mar 28, 2009)

220/221 said:


> I'd laugh at him. I've seen a LOT of old work and I've *never* had or seen an issue from ANY type of cable bundling/grouping. I've seen countless cables damaged by over zealous staplers though.
> 
> I've been using this method since the 70's. Never been red tagged. It keeps the romex in place/away from the drywall, it's 100% recycled material (it's sheath only), it's always in stock and it's *free* :thumbup:


 I basically had the same thing as this in two bundles coming out of the top of the breaker box and he said that bundeling them together will derate them also, as well as being in a sleeve. I will try to get pics tomorrow.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Yeah, but it's illegaly screwed to the stud using gyp screws.....


 
Those are electrical box mounting screws.

I think there are too many wires in there too :whistling2:

It still works though.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

If those clean sneakers are yours, you're not working hard enough :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Dam nice find.. those new spectacles were worth the money



My ear horn is also a metal detector. :laughing:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> My ear horn is also a metal detector. :laughing:


:laughing::laughing:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Water table has nothing to do with grade............:whistling2:


But the water table is below grade:no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> But the water table is below grade:no:


Not always.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Black4Truck said:


> If those clean sneakers are yours, you're not working hard enough :laughing:


he don't need to work too much, he's got those mack daddy trucks and service changes every fricking day...he needs to kick it by now.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not always.


 yeah, only when one exist :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> yeah, only when one exist :thumbsup:



It the water table gets higher than grade, we end up with things we call lakes & rivers, ponds and puddles.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> If those clean sneakers are yours, you're not working hard enough :laughing:


 
Heh heh, those must have been straight out of the box. They were trashed in a couple of days.



> he don't need to work too much, he's got those mack daddy trucks and service changes every fricking day...he needs to kick it by now.


You would think, you would hope....but no. I'm still out there killin tennis shoes.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

220/221 said:


> You would think, you would hope....but no. I'm still out there killin tennis shoes.


one of the REAL benefits of working for yourself.:thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It the water table gets higher than grade, we end up with things we call lakes & rivers, ponds and puddles.


In those cases you "float" the pvc box ...


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

We have similar rules in Ontario. You have to use the standoff or staples that are rated for more then one cable.

You cannot use anything to secure the wire except approved materials / fasteners, unfortunately the sheathing scraps are not approved in Canada either 

Cheers


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

den said:


> I had a rough in house inspection today and the inspector told me to quit stapelling romex together on a stud as it will derate it and I should be using a romex standoff in stud spaces and that the wires clips in individually. I don't know what these are???


Tell him to show you how to derate it and watch him squirm.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

it's not the screw that makes a side penetration illegal...it's the lack of a cubbyhole for the screw. Think smartbox. or any typical carlon box has screw shield holes on the back. The weird thing is that a standard plastic 4 square box does not have cubbies, but we throw mounting screws in it, or else it just falls off the wall. I guess it must be the angle. I know they are concerned that the screw can't become energized, or else it defeats the purpose of the non grounded enclosure.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

danickstr said:


> it's not the screw that makes a side penetration illegal......it's the lack of a cubbyhole for the screw. I know they are concerned that the screw can't become energized, or else it defeats the purpose of the non grounded enclosure.


 
Yeah, I get it but....... if the screws become energized, you are doing something *really really* wrong. Once in a while we will caulk over them to placate certain inspectors. Generally, it isn't an isue.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> 14awg thhn....romex is rated at 90C only, but this is mostly semantics.


Romex, aka nm cable, is rated 60C--- art. 334.80



> 334.80 Ampacity.
> *The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15. The ampacity shall be in accordance with the 60°C (140°F) conductor temperature rating.* The 90°C (194°F) rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity derating purposes, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that for a 60°C (140°F) rated conductor. The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable installed in cable tray shall be determined in accordance with 392.11.
> Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are installed, without maintaining spacing between the cables, through the same opening in wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) and the provisions of 310.15(A)(2), Exception, shall not apply.
> Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are installed in contact with thermal insulation without maintaining spacing between cables, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Quote:
> 334.80 Ampacity.
> The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be determined in accordance with 310.15. The ampacity shall be in accordance with the 60°C (140°F) conductor temperature rating. _*The 90°C (194°F) rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity derating purposes, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that for a 60°C (140°F) rated conductor.* _The ampacity of Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable installed in cable tray shall be determined in accordance with 392.11.
> Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are installed, without maintaining spacing between the cables, through the same opening in wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation, caulk, or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) and the provisions of 310.15(A)(2), Exception, shall not apply.
> ...


You highlighted the wrong part. According to this section of the Code, you start your derating calculations with the 90 column as highlighted here.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

since I doubt he could have nailed 6 14 nm's on top of each other, it sounds like the de-rating issue is moot. on the screw issue - no ned to convince me it is silly...I am just quoting scripture.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Did anyone in this thread encourage the use of wire stackers?

Well yes, I love them. 
I've never done what 220,221 did with that 2-ganger but I've used the same method to put nm in place, mostly with whips. That way the sheetrockers know where to stub your wire down in the garage.


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## den (Mar 28, 2009)

These wire stackers look like they would work ok. I am going to get some. I havn't seen anybody here using them yet but I am sure it is coming. The inspector was nice about it and I think that he wants to get people to using them. I had 2-12gua nm stapeled on top of each other coming down the stud. Didn't get any pics today


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

He's mad for 2 12's stapled to a stud? I can easily get three under a staple if I want to. Those stackers are junk in my opinion. It keeps the wires away from the rock where the stackers are but beyond that it's difficult to keep them in the middle where you want them.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> He's mad for 2 12's stapled to a stud? I can easily get three under a staple if I want to. Those stackers are junk in my opinion. It keeps the wires away from the rock where the stackers are but beyond that it's difficult to keep them in the middle where you want them.


Well what size staples are you using? 
Obviously you don't need stackers for two 12-2's. Mainly I use them above a multi-gang switch box where I have a bunch of nms, 14-3s and 14-2s entering the box. It just makes it a lot cleaner and easier to secure all that wire on one stud.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Easier yes, cleaner no. I use them too but rarely and when I do I put a staple sideways in between stackers and secure them to that with a chunk of wire or sheath too.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Well what size staples are you using?
> Obviously you don't need stackers for two 12-2's. Mainly I use them above a multi-gang switch box where I have a bunch of nms, 14-3s and 14-2s entering the box. It just makes it a lot cleaner and easier to secure all that wire on one stud.


Recently I had a (5) gang box on a 2X4 stud.

I drove in (3) staples in the middle of the stud and used wireties to hold the wires in a round bundle, center of the stud.

There were (3) sets of 3 - ways.

Some here will say it is a choke point and to derate.. BLA BLA BLA :no:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

My question to both of you: Why not just use them? Three nails, slap the wire in there and you are done.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Mostly because I carry staples in my pouch and not stackers. And because they annoy me.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Why question to both of you: Why not just use them? Three nails, slap the wire in there and you are done.


I think their ugly and don't hold the wire tight


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm really surprised. 
I (obviously) use staples the majority of the time but I really like wire stackers for a many situations.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm really surprised.
> I (obviously) use staples the majority of the time but I really like wire stackers for a many situations.


That's cool with me, to each their own.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Black4Truck said:


> I think their ugly and don't hold the wire tight


I think it looks very clean and hold the wire very tight.
:whistling2:


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> I'm really surprised.
> I (obviously) use staples the majority of the time but I really like wire stackers for a many situations.


I used that method long before the stackers were on the market, so there is no real good reason to change.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> That's cool with me, to each their own.


True, 220, 221...
:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Slackers have the nail set at an angle. This is handy when attempting to secure cables in tight spots, like when a single gang nail on (Carlon??) box is sandwiched between two studs like switch boxes near doors sometimes are. That is the best use for them. My personal opinion is that an inspector requiring they be used to eliminate "bundling" is that he has his head stuck up his _____ . Romex bundling=global warming =unicorns =needing to carry a loaded revolver onto a jobsite =Obama telling somebody the truth =" this will only hurt for a little while"...


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