# KVAR energy saving



## EMC (Apr 7, 2009)

has anyone ever heard of kvar energy saving to reduce your power bill/consumption by correcting power factor? if so, i would like to hear your reactions and opinions


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Crap, horse sh*t, junk, rip off, screwing your customer, criminally prosecutable sterling, snake oil, waste of money, bunk, road apples, black magic and if you really want my opinion well give me a few to get my thoughts together.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

No do tell!:whistling2:


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## EMC (Apr 7, 2009)

but, its got a 12 year warranty and a 10% savings guarantee:thumbsup:


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Give Brian a gun! I am of the same opinion. Kvar can only be dealt with in large industrial and commercial settings, motors in particular.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

brian john said:


> Crap, horse sh*t, junk, rip off, screwing your customer, criminally prosecutable sterling, snake oil, waste of money, bunk, road apples, black magic


So you didn't install one on your service?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

THis subject has been dealt with here and as noted before there is.

1. There is no penalty for poor residential PF.
2. The fixed capacitance of this device could be an improvement or too much or not enough correction.
3. As noted by others the best energy saver for residential is CFL's and turning down or up the stat depending on the season and turning off the lights.
4. There is no savings.


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## EMC (Apr 7, 2009)

its not so much the power factor, as the lower amp/wattage use. does this make any difference?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

ANOTHER KVAR thread ???????????????????


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well yes we have its part of the economic recovery plan in the good old usa today everyone is thinkin green !!
You see you pay to have it installed by a out of work electrician he comes in and changes the temp setting on your water heater next he puts in lower wattage bulbs ect ect you do save power ! and your helping out the working class trying to make a living by doing your part to save energy . take care think green turn down t stat and a lamp ! 

Now just come out and say it your selling these and your not sure of what your selling right or wrong ?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Its a four letter word JUNK.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

emc said:


> its not so much the power factor, as the lower amp/wattage use. Does this make any difference?


that's a big no


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

dude, c'mon! I saw the "sham wow" guy hawking that stuff on late night tv! It MUST work!


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## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

it only works with motors the best, reduces heat. google KVAR scam and see what you get. ill have to find my post I made about it a while back.. YES another thread but a newbie OP.


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## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

AAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhaaa...i found it..here ya go it was under the thread "power saver"..

Ok its my turn.. I went into the supply house the other day and they had a dvd set up with some gadgets, so i am a man i had to look. They arent selling it but a salesman came in to set it up for all to see, its called a *KVAR* energy controller.

Its supposed to reduce electrical waste by electromagneticity and reduces the NON-productive current in the electrical system. It is supposed to increase euip. life by reducing heat around the motor and wiring caused by reactive current...blah blah blah...

here is a sight to check out 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=efG2-yk3ZK0

Or read crap here:
http://www.globalgreensavings.com/
Opinion of this crap, let me digress,

The electric meter does not register reactive current, only watts. The 
*KVAR* Energy Controller is a capacitor that reduces I squared R line loss. 
By improving the power factor of the electric distribution system or an 
individual motor, the *KVAR* unit reduces excessive reactive current that 
produces heat, heat is watts, and watts through the meter are reduced. It 
is easy to demonstrate how a capacitor can slow down the electric meter 
when it is installed on the load side of the electric company's cash 
register. 

Follow your instincts, search or try it yourself.

Here is an idea, raise your hand, close your fist, stick out you index finger and turn the switch off, save power....... tadaaaaaaaaa..


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## Greg (Aug 1, 2007)

What worries me is he screen name is EMC. If he is Navy, he is giving the rest of us a bad name by even mentioning kvar scam.


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## redbeard43 (Mar 20, 2009)

probably a salesman like the past hiding under a name or some original that has more than 1 screen name


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well you can not sell one unit meaning one size fits all homes for power factor correction . Each home would need a study done on that home . what home owner would pay to do that ? 

The kvar needed on each motor needs to be at that motor not down stream at the service outdoors !

Lets look inside a few capacitors one or two metal oxide varistors and a choke coil for back feeds online . a coil its a ripple filter for what ? we need ac not dc power in our home . 

Question how come GE does not make these for single dwellings ?

What about your computer or all your electronics at the house do you really need a capacitor increasing you voltage at that outlet up to say 160 volts ? because when you add caps thats going to give ya more volts .

Lets look at a short or a appliance with a problem whats that extra voltage stored going to do ?

Does it effect a GFI meaning trip time or maybe burn out or limit some devices in your home meaning limit the warranty of its life span running at higher voltage ? 

Best part is all your electronic power supplies will be hotter running as ther internal dc voltage regulators will need to disapate that extra dropped voltage of the correction caps now attached to your service . Take care be safe but dont take the bait !!!


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## EMC (Apr 7, 2009)

Nick, thank you for explaining, that helps it make sense to me why this is not a great idea. Let me clear the air and say that i am not a salesman and do not believe in these. It sounds like a get rich quick type of thing to me. Greg, let me apologize to you for "making you look bad" by using my initials as my screen name, next time I'll try to be more creative. This was brought to me by someone I know and I said I would look into it. Thanks to all for your help.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

EMC said:


> Nick, thank you for explaining, that helps it make sense to me why this is not a great idea. Let me clear the air and say that i am not a salesman and do not believe in these. It sounds like a get rich quick type of thing to me. Greg, let me apologize to you for "making you look bad" by using my initials as my screen name, next time I'll try to be more creative. This was brought to me by someone I know and I said I would look into it. Thanks to all for your help.


Well we understand that its just there are some who come on and are trying to sell it to us folks and i do like to debate with them for fun ! We can say they kinda do work but its not much just pennys .
I will not go running out and purchase one but id like to test one in a controlled kinda load take it to the test bench !! You can only use energy wisely energy used is energy lost law of physics . EMC GEEZEE i dont know anything about electric stuff i was just helping out Greg with that Navy comment !!! Take care best to ya


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Hi all, I came across this forum googling KVAR.

Just a brief history I am former VP of a electrical company founded in 1989 and a Master electrician. After closing my company this past year due to divorce and personal issues I am now working for a start up solar company and have considered these KVAR devices as one of our green energy solutions.

Being a skeptic and reading all the bad press Mike Holtz articles and everything else we actually installed a KVAR type device in the owners house. It was given to us on a trial bases after a bit of finagling with the sales rep. 

Being the A/C units were on all month I would assume these motor loads are exactly what this unit was designed for. The unit we tested was not an original KVAR but a knock off, ES-1200.

The results actually shocked me:

For the billing cycle ending 8/15/09 total electric bill was $266.00, 55KWH, average temp 75F.

For the same billing cycle in 2008, last year, total electric bill was $380.00, 67KWH, temp 70F.

*A small percentage of this saving is due to the fact generation provider was change, a few cents per KWH I believe.

We had a meeting this AM where I was shown the bill and it is supposed to be scanned and emailed to me. 

Side note, I do own a website and discussion forum (Great Dane Related) so am aware of the way discussion forums go. My post here is meant for one thing, to share my experience with this device.

I'm not here to push this product and probably wont incorporated this into our business plan untill at least a few more months of testing.
Just wanted to share this information for you to make your own decisions. I as you all are, was convinced this was a scam. Test one out for yourself, you may be surprised.

Good luck to everyone and all the best with your business endeavors.

Jeff Z.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

How does this device invalidate the laws of physics? Or is changing the laws of mathematics? You make all hard working electricians look like cheats and scoundrels with that crap. I hope that the first customer that you sell that to comes back and rips you head off.:furious:


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Did I mentioned I own a very successful "friendly" Great Dane forum?
I know how forums work and that particular post is called a flame, I did not post here to be flamed. Read my Intro to the board and you will see how/why I decided to post on this forum.

I as you was skeptical about this device. email me, I will send a scanned copy of this bill to you. PM me your fax number and I'll fax it. All I would ask for a public apology.

Stated in my post are the facts, this is all, my position on this device remains neutral. Form your own opinions, the bill speaks for itself. How why is the bill drastically lower? I don't have an answer for this, all I did was install it at the beginning of the billing cycle.

Did not come here to be flamed, got enough of that from my soon to be x wife.

Cheers,
Jeff Z.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Field testing is not a valid method as there are too many variables.

Set up a controlled test. Fixed loads for an exact fixed period of time monitor voltage, current kw, kva, kvars, pf and report back.

I have asked this question of everyone that touts this equipment as the second coming of Christ (not that you fall into this category) and not one has supplied and valid test.

You should know DR Sparky's real name is....... well lets just say he'll be throwing a football for the Eagles on Thursday. Sorry Michael I did not mean to give away your secrete.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

I 100% agree it does not make any sense in theory and as mentioned was shocked to see the bill. Yes, I mean No, I am not touting this device is just everything I have read has been negative. So I try one and what the heck, it saved money LOL. Just wanted to share this and am going to watch the next few months utility bills to see if the trend remains.

I'll keep you all in the loop the next few billing cycles. Dunno what else to make of it. As mentioned I have a copy of the bill scanned let me know if you want to see it.

Sucked getting flamed my very first post, didn't know Michael was an electrician? Good luck on Sunday btw. Have an elec. client whose name equals a half dollar so I'm in now way star struck :whistling2:

Cheers,
Jeff Z.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Most of us are licensed professionals; therefore we have responsibility to our customers. If a customer complained to the licensing board that they were defrauded what defense could you give? Do you think they would accept a testimonial utility bill as proof that it works? They are professionals don't believe in magic. What theory does this work? What test can you show this works? Every time these have been tested in a lab they do not work. 
If it did work don’t you think legitimate companies would be fighting to get it on the market? GE, Siemens, Square D all have an in place distribution network and could make billions. 
You file this with 100mpg carburetor, burn tap water in you car, the tornado fuel mixer, and take this pill and you will loose 50lbs overnight.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Yes you can read my intro to the board for my resume and agree with your last post. This is why I as well said these things can't work and put one in to see for myself. Would not install these devices for customers at this point, yet if power bill is lower by 10% plus the next few cycles, will definitely consider it.

Of interest, checked with two neigbors on same street of the house we installed the device. Similar homes of similar square footage all running central AC this August. Both bills averaged 5 to 10KWH more August 09 vs August 08. My bill as well, living in an Apt now running one tiny 6K BTU AC unit went up 9KWH this year vs last.

Now is is simply a cooincidence that my brothers bill went down as mentioned prior post ^^. Koi pond, 1hp waterfall pump, central A/C time two systems running all month? I don't know. He was expecting an elec bill somewhere in the 400 dollar range.

I agree with the theory and that these things just shouldn't work. For one reason or another there was a major savings in the test home we installed with the trend for three others KWH usage for August 08 was way up.

Thinking now, could it be in a controlled test envirionment the fact that there are no variable, e.g., constant steady power, constant loads, ambient temperature, etc., the reason these devices just don't function as promised?

Maybe it's indeed these variables, changes to the grid, voltage, power factor over the course of a month, as well as, variables within the homes electrical system, with appliance loads etc., is the reason for the savings?

I'm a E1 very well versed in many areas of our trade yet I'm not an electrical engineer. My hope is that somehow, someone can scientifically explain what is happening. I understand there are many studies as to why these units should not work, however, I personally have proof that money was saved, for whatever reason, and a major savings at that. The lowest monthly KWH Demand for our test home over a two year period was 53KWH. This was off peak demand season each Spring and Fall, no AC, minimal lighting load, no heat, etc. 

Can't wait to see what the next two billing cycles show and as mentioned will post results here.

Untill then, thanks for the interesting discussion.

Jeff Z.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

With only 13 posts to your name I am willing to be your a spammer.

So how is the weather in India these days??


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## Mikecurrey (Aug 25, 2009)

Rockyd said:


> Give Brian a gun! I am of the same opinion. Kvar can only be dealt with in large industrial and commercial settings, motors in particular.


I do commercial service and have heard that KVAR works great in that setting.

mike
http://www.mikecurrieelectric.com/


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

LMAO at the spammer comment. Yes 13 posts as it's only been a few days since I joined. Pretty good posts too no?

BTW, the Great Dane I put down was the reason I found this forum, trying to keep my mind occupied and couldn't bare to visit my own sites. Have you read all my 13 posts?

You can check me out on the header of every page of my website here..
Read my intro on this forum as well. Also there is an "about author" page on my Dane site that kind of tells my story. There is a privacy policy statement that includes address which you will see in smack dab in New England.

So, do I look hindu to you? LMAO

Back on the subject of KVAR, was actually in touch with their engineers today regarding RMS meters and some of the theory behind this technology.

As posted, going to monitor for the next few months before I call this a winner in a residential installation, so far so good though.

Off for my evening magic carpet ride :laughing:

Jeff Z.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Mikecurrey said:


> I do commercial service and have heard that KVAR works great in that setting.
> 
> mike
> http://www.mikecurrieelectric.com/


Properly sized capacitor banks installed in a facility with low power factor and there is a utility penalty for a low power factor. Then savings can be obtained. Not by installing an off the shelf black boxed sold by snake oil salesmen.

There is more to properly installing cap banks than some dingle berry with a truck and a pair of Klein's can do on a Friday evening.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Enjoy and draw your own conclusions. Also note that AC demand was about double this year compared to 2008. This is my brothers house, new, about 5 years old. Nothing "removed" electrically, same sub zero, same washer, dryer, waterfall etc. 12KW savings after installing the ES 1200 "given" to us to try by a snake oil salesman and installed by me... LMAO

I suppose we should cough up the $249 bucks now? Or think we should wait to confirm it actually works over the next few months?

Jeff Z.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I hate to burst your bubble OR you have not read enough regarding this issue. RANDOM BILLS MEAN *NOTHING*

YOU MUST HAVE A CONTROLLED TEST.

DID I SAY


*NOTHING, YES I THINK I DID*D
, POSITIVELY, WORTHLESS, CRAP ON A STICK, WORTHLESS PIECE OF PAPER NOT WORTHY OF BEING CALLED TOILET PAPER.

Now give me SOME REAL bench test results and I will eat my words.

That's right every time we ask for this information we get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING because they CANNOT SUPPLY THIS. And I am sure they do not want to do controlled test BECAUSE it would prove what utility engineers, facility engineers, design engineers and those with common sense know THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES, but lot's of folks will give you SH*T on a bun and try to tell you "this is dinner".

But you seem not to care, you are looking to boost profits and seem not to give a damn how you do it. Well those with any self respect will call you out as a.

HACK
JACK LEG
DISHONEST
SNAKE OIL SALESMAN
and WORST

*DREAM ON*


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Yes I did read that Brian and offered food for thought saying "maybe it's these variables" over the course of a month with the grid, a homes electrical system, etc. where these devices save.

I agree with most all the skeptisism yet also question, why do we see these random lower bills after these devices are installed. I followed up with and spoke via telephone to 3 actual references provided by the sales company. Viewed three months worth of statements, these are actual home owners who have seen from 5 to 15% reduction in their bills subsequent to KVAR type device installation.

As mentioned this is purely a test for the time being yet would love to have a low cost green alternative to add to the arsenal of our new Solar Co. Time and only time will tell if this happens.

Wont post here again in this thread until Sept. 09 statement is scanned, at which time I will share it. If I'm wrong I'll admit it. My entire purpose of my original post in this thread was to share my surprise about the KVAR.

I appreciate all who have commented, added opinions and thoughts.
Off to other areas of the forum for now, hope I can lend a hand.

Jeff Z.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Here check this out.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=104549&page=16


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow you really crack me up!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Wiremanz how can you call yourself an electrician???


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

I already posted this in another thread (hello, from tampa) but please look at this Mike Currie's website a few posts up. These guys are driving me nuts. How can a licensed electrician be so ignorant. Look how he explains power factor and surge arrestors. He's pulling this crap out of his ass. What a hack.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Mikecurrey said:


> I do commercial service and have heard that KVAR works great in that setting.
> 
> mike
> http://www.mikecurrieelectric.com/


This is the one. I'm not necessarily trying to single this guy out, but he is advertising his stupidity and I want to make an example. Please defend yourself Mike. It pisses me off that I could lose work to a P.O.S. company like this. Try to take pride in what you do and educate yourself.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

yikes, another tongue lashing on this stuff lol. 

I still want to bench test one myself. We run AC units all the time and have a pool motor running all the time, so I figure I should be able to run a fairly simple test at some point in the near future. I want to hook up a few energy efficient measures at once at my place including Geothermal, radiant barrier, some Permafrost HVAC additive, and an Intellidyne unit to each AC unit. Also will be upgrading to digital thermostats, as I have ancient ones. I'm not patient enough to test them all one at a time for M+V, but the one that seems to cause the strongest reaction is that darn KVAR type device. 

I know some guys who want to sell for us that put a few in with no discernible difference in the bill, and then one who did. Basically I don't trust anyone on it until I see the measurements myself at this point. I would like to see your updated bill when you post it. It sounds as if you obviously have no agenda in place, and are sharing freely. Thanks.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

There is also WAY too much documented evidence to dismiss this unilaterally. Why would people lie on news reports? To avoid looking like a fool? 

Hey, on Fox news 10 it was voted Deal not Dud, so there you go lol. Like I said, I'll be testing it myself. I actually am setting up another bench test soon on the light fixtures with bad lamps, one bad lamp, disconnected lamps, etc. I found that educational, and I'm sure this will be too.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

Complete hog wash. Installed a unit and tested it with an LEM analyst.
PF went negative and over shot so much that PF was worse than before.

Those big caps make an awful hum too. People love listening to that in their garage. Sounds like a garage door opening 24/7.



EMC said:


> has anyone ever heard of kvar energy saving to reduce your power bill/consumption by correcting power factor? if so, i would like to hear your reactions and opinions


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Just received an email that post was made in this thread.

It's been almost a month since I last posted and our second utility bill since installing "this snake oil" device reveals...

Yet another significant reduction in KWH usage and I will "publish" the scanned copy here as soon as I recieve a scanned copy.

This technology works, further, I came across a PDF that bench tested KVAR with one motor, and one utility meter.

This bench tests documented... and I'm shooting from the hip atm, it took 20% less time to spin a utility meter to one KWH with KVAR in parallel @ 240volts.

More to follow, LMAO.

Jeff


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

> The results actually shocked me:
> 
> For the billing cycle ending 8/15/09 total electric bill was $266.00, 55KWH, average temp 75F.
> 
> ...


Hmmm .... my bill went down by even more than this and I didn't install diddly-sqwat! Even my costs per kWh are higher this year! Could it be that the _weather_ had something to do with it? Like it has been the coolest summer we have had for years??? Even though your bill shows a "degrees" reading for "August" I would have to say there is not any "humidity" reading shown. Late July/early August on the east coast had much lower humidity this summer than last.

Again, my bill dropped significantly, and I did NOT install any magic box on my house!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wiremanz said:


> This technology works, further, I came across a PDF that bench tested KVAR with one motor, and one utility meter.
> 
> This bench tests documented... and I'm shooting from the hip atm, it took 20% less time to spin a utility meter to one KWH with KVAR in parallel @ 240volts.


You really are gullible.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Now it doesn't really matter if I'm gullible, or what I even say for that matter. I really don't care, if you read all my posts you will learn how/why I chose to post on this board.

Fact is, I find it intriguingthat so many people can form an opinion on any given subject based on what they read.

Fact is, we are currently testing this device to see for ourselves if it actually works. Fact is, so far the kvar has reduced what we owe the power company vs. August/Sept last year. Fact is, neighbors on the same street, we compared three, had utility bills that all went up. Fact is, I convinced one of these KVAR (knock off) reps to give us a box to try. Fact is, I'm posting based on first hand experience testing this device.

You would figure I'd get at least a kudos for actually testing one of these units and sharing the results.

I posted links to my "dog related" websites here in one thread or another. Follow links if you'd like and view my "privacy policy", do call me. I don't hide behind a keyboard like so many people on the web.

And while you're there, check out the dog gear and accessories I prototyped, LOL. This is my true passion, my success as an electrical contractor seems life Part 1 these days.

Unfortunately, my Dane died and the economy has tanked so wiped the rust off my tools and am playing electrician for a while. As well as, sharing what I've learned my first 40 as a business owner in our industry here on this board.

Take care guys,
I'll post up the image soon, and of course... more bills as they are available. 

Jeff Z.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

wiremanz said:


> Now it doesn't really matter if I'm gullible, or what I even say for that matter. I really don't care, if you read all my posts you will learn how/why I chose to post on this board.
> 
> Fact is, I find it intriguingthat so many people can form an opinion on any given subject based on what they read.
> 
> Fact is, we are currently testing this device to see for ourselves if it actually works. Fact is, so far the kvar has reduced what we owe the power company vs. August/Sept last year. Fact is, neighbors on the same street, we compared three, had utility bills that all went up. Fact is, I convinced one of these KVAR (knock off) reps to give us a box to try. Fact is, I'm posting based on first hand experience testing this device.



I too am an E1 and I would NEVER, EVER install, let alone try to sell, one of these devices. 

The fact is you cannot test this device with many rapidly fluctuating variables as you are doing. To adequately prove this device works it MUST be done under lab conditions with carefully fixed loads, data monitoring, and measurement devices. Your "experiment" doesn't even meet the basic criteria of an experiment so your results can be dismissed out of hand. 

Plainly put, your results are meaningless because you don't even have a baseline to compare one household to another. 

I noticed something on your bill. You have a 2nd party energy supplier. Do your neighbors to whom you are comparing also have the same supplier, or are they paying CL&P for their power? Are the rates even the same? Not that it matters since every household is going to have a different load profile, so you're effectively comparing apples to oranges to grapes.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

:yes::yes::yes:



Peter D said:


> I too am an E1 and I would NEVER, EVER install, let alone try to sell, one of these devices.
> 
> The fact is you cannot test this device with many rapidly fluctuating variables as you are doing. To adequately prove this device works it MUST be done under lab conditions with carefully fixed loads, data monitoring, and measurement devices. Your "experiment" doesn't even meet the basic criteria of an experiment so your results can be dismissed out of hand.
> 
> ...


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

We are not selling this, we did consider it for a new green energy company just launched yet sticking with tried and true solar for now. Reputation is invaluable and we will not sell this device to anyone until there is proof it saves. This is why we installed it on my brothers house to field test. All I can say is so far it's doing what has been promised. 

Yes, he switched to an alternative provider for a few cents per KWH savings. However, we are seeing an actual reduction in overall monthly KWH usage for a second month in a row. The dollars and sense are just that, it's actual usage that has dropped.

I understand there are variables "in field" and as an x industrial electronics grad in HS I can relate to the "bench test". 

It is what it is at this point, just keeping y'all up on what is happening with the unit & bill.

Jeff Z.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

wireman - Show some proof, not a electric bill.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

They must have sized those bad boys to work on a majority of homes, as there appears to be far too much positive evidence to ignore. Based on how much we use our electric motors at my place(AC and Pool motor), I have no doubt we'd probably experience savings. I would imagine those who don't see nothing in savings, and possibly an increase. Since I don't have to pay for install, I might try it. Kind of sick of the $600 electric bill myself.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

I don't understand how slapping the same size capacitors on every house is going to improve power factor.

When I tested them, the power factor came up in the mid .90s before they were installed. After flipping the breaker on to that circuit the PF went into the -.80s. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that means the PF was WORSE after the unit was switched on. It went even further down hill when the central air conditioning cycled off.

My understanding about PF correction is that you need to add capacitance to the circuits that have inductance and the caps need to be switched with the inductors. Having to much capacitance is just as bad as having too much inductance. In a perfect world, you would have just as many henrys as farads on every circuit but that ain't gonna happen in the real world. How does slapping the same size, and number of caps, on every house, that are switched on 24/7 correct a constantly changing power factor??


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

No offense, but if thousands of them out there are working, it isn't by chance. Like I said previously, I'll bench test it myself first, but there seems to be enough evidence to say it's worth looking into for myself. To install for others? No. For myself.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lighting Retro said:


> No offense, but if thousands of them out there are working, it isn't by chance.


Where do you get this notion that they are "working"? Are you believing the sale pitch hype? Or the unscientific "proof" that they are "saving money"? 

As has been stated, having a fixed value of untuned capacitance in a system with ever changing power factor is _not_ going to solve power factors issues. In fact, it might even make them worse. 

I reread the thread about this on Mike Holt's forum and the ideal solution to correct residential power factor is to place properly tuned/sized caps at each major motor load (pool pump, central A/C units) on the _load_ side of the contactor or switching device so they are only in the circuit when the load is running. 

Not that it matters anyway since resi customers don't incur an extra penalty for poor power factor, yet this seems to be lost on those who believe in this magic box.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

One thing I find somewhat amusing about this is the true believers in this device never address the real technical challenges that it presents. The logic is sort of "People say it's saving them money so it must work" while ignoring the mountain of evidence to the contrary.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Where do you get this notion that they are "working"? Are you believing the sale pitch hype? Or the unscientific "proof" that they are "saving money"?
> 
> As has been stated, having a fixed value of untuned capacitance in a system with ever changing power factor is _not_ going to solve power factors issues. In fact, it might even make them worse.
> 
> ...


what everyone seems to lose sight of is that it isn't about PF penalties. Induction motors are oversized for the jobs they do. There is waste. I view this more as a small motor control type of device in how it operates. I am far less technical than many of you as I specialize only in lighting. I freely admit that. However, for such a *SMALL* price tag I'll buy one to test it. 

The nice thing about being an electrician is that if it doesn't help, you just remove it. Less than 20 minutes. NO BIGGIE. Some of us will think nothing of dropping a grand on tools that pay us back in job performance IF we use them enough. I'd view this as nothing different personally. If I didn't use it enough I'd put it in the tool box and chalk it up as experience.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Peter D said:


> One thing I find somewhat amusing about this is the true believers in this device never address the real technical challenges that it presents. The logic is sort of "People say it's saving them money so it must work" while ignoring the mountain of evidence to the contrary.


Too pricey to not make a one size fits all type of product for residential I'm assuming. Sure it is ideal to deal with one induction motor at a time, but since that isn't cost effective, it does seem logical this could work in "x" percentage of homes if it is sized for the average home. 

Regardless, and "unscientific" as the OP testing seems to be to ya'all, it also appears he has nothing to lie about. I for one am interested in seeing his results, so I hope he continues to post them.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lighting Retro said:


> Regardless, and "unscientific" as the OP testing seems to be to ya'all, it also appears he has nothing to lie about.


People can be good intentioned and sincere in what they are doing....they can also be sincerely wrong.


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## Lighting Retro (Aug 1, 2009)

Peter D said:


> People can be good intentioned and sincere in what they are doing....they can also be sincerely wrong.


so true


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

:yes:



Peter D said:


> Where do you get this notion that they are "working"? Are you believing the sale pitch hype? Or the unscientific "proof" that they are "saving money"?
> 
> As has been stated, having a fixed value of untuned capacitance in a system with ever changing power factor is _not_ going to solve power factors issues. In fact, it might even make them worse.
> 
> ...


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Granny has a cure for the cvommon cold it is absolutly garaunteed to work as it has never yet failed to cure the common cold.All you have to do is follow the directions, you take the cold cure, drink plenty of fluids get some rest and in 5-7 days your cold will be cured.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

rewire said:


> Granny has a cure for the cvommon cold it is absolutly garaunteed to work as it has never yet failed to cure the common cold.All you have to do is follow the directions, you take the cold cure, drink plenty of fluids get some rest and in 5-7 days your cold will be cured.


Cool, I will take it, how much?

Home PF correction is snake oil.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

I've already done my own testing and I'm not going to waste any more of my time and/or money on it. If you would like to test to see if they actually work, here is how you would do an objective bench test.
Install a meter can and a kwa meter on a branch circuit that feeds an induction load such as a pool pump. Install a timer and one of those "power factor correctors" on that circuit. set the timer to cycle the pump on and off several times in a 24 hour period. Let the setup run for 1 month. Do the exact same thing without the caps installed. If you end up with 10-15% less kwa on that meter with the caps installed I'll believe you. Anything short of that type of controlled testing is not going to convince me or any one else that has a good understanding of electrical theory.

I don't believe that they work just because people give them glowing reviews. I get the same hogwash from customers who install electric tankless water heaters. I actually had a guy tell me recently that his power bill went down by $20-$30 after installing a tankless heater. He lived by himself and he had a newer 30 gallon electric tanked unit with plastic piping hooked up to it before. The problem here is that 1 guy living by himself self with a well insulated heater here in central Florida is only going to use about $10-$15 worth of hot water to begin with. I know this because I do allot of solar work and part of what I do is install meters on the old water heater and let it run for a year before I replace it so as to size it properly. My point here is that when people spend money on something like this they want it to work. Since they don't have a real way to accurately measure the performance, wishful thinking takes over.



Lighting Retro said:


> what everyone seems to lose sight of is that it isn't about PF penalties. Induction motors are oversized for the jobs they do. There is waste. I view this more as a small motor control type of device in how it operates. I am far less technical than many of you as I specialize only in lighting. I freely admit that. However, for such a *SMALL* price tag I'll buy one to test it.
> 
> The nice thing about being an electrician is that if it doesn't help, you just remove it. Less than 20 minutes. NO BIGGIE. Some of us will think nothing of dropping a grand on tools that pay us back in job performance IF we use them enough. I'd view this as nothing different personally. If I didn't use it enough I'd put it in the tool box and chalk it up as experience.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

double post deleted


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Running a motor at no load is not a valid test.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

To everyone, if you read my very first post in this thread it states that I am trying this to see if it indeed saves. Also, "I was shocked" at the reduction in KWH, that's all. And because I too read so many articles all over the web that it's a scam, wanted to share with this board for opinions. Oh yes, thanks for all of them 

I also closed that post by saying, try one for yourself. I'm not pitching the product, the technology or selling this to anyone. At least not for now, or, until I'm 100% convinced. Only time will tell. 

Here is a link to that PDF I mentioned prior post ^^.
And also, here is a link to the company that did the test with contact info and phone.

If you read the PDF you will see they did mention "a properly sized KVAR" for this specific motor. 

I agree that a "one size fits all" capacitor array may not always function efficiently, the residential box seems to work best in older homes with older appliances, multiple ac units, well/sump pumps, pool filters etc. Also, they will have no affect on resistive loads.

Further researching KVAR for commercial applications. They have proprietary sizing equipment and installing the wrong capacitor array in certain situations can actually cost money.

Honestly, if you can swindle a knock off from one of the many reps that are around as I did, it will cost you nothing to test one in your own home. 
Most will gladly give you a unit for free, or a hundred bucks if you sign a consignment agreement. Most will also take it back and refund whatever you paid if you don't see at least 8% savings. You have nothing to lose except a half hours time to throw it on.

There are also numerous news agencies both online and on air that have endorsed KVAR technology.

What a hoot.

Hope to hear any feedback from anyone here that actually tries one of these. 

Jeff Z.


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

Who said anything about no load?



kbsparky said:


> Running a motor at no load is not a valid test.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

Look at the time of posts, member must have posted that comment while I was composing my reply. 
Didn't see that :laughing:

Yes power factor drops off relative to motor load and increased when motor is running at maximum efficiency, typically 75% of rated load. So I guess that would make sense... un loaded motor, poor power factor, KVAR corrects this and thus the savings.

Good point :thumbsup:

Jeff Z.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I have seen booth demos of this type of product, and they utilize a dayton 1/3 hp motor operating at no load. So, of course it will appear to show "substantial" reduction in energy usage. Also, they only use an Amp meter which shows the greatest reduction.

When one uses a watt meter, however, the so-called "savings" are not so significant.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

wiremanz said:


> Look at the time of posts, member must have posted that comment while I was composing my reply.
> Didn't see that :laughing:
> 
> Yes power factor drops off relative to motor load and increased when motor is running at maximum efficiency, typically 75% of rated load. So I guess that would make sense... un loaded motor, poor power factor, KVAR corrects this and thus the savings.
> ...


You have to realize that a residential customer is not penalized (charged more money) for having a poor power factor. If one was, then of course you could save money. If you want to prove that it works, prove to us that you get penalized. I've seen a demonstration kit too and it too had an unloaded dayton motor. It also had a wattmeter connected to it but I guess the guy doing the demo would have it set to display amps. When I set it to watts we saw no difference. I know that's not a valid test, but I only had a few minutes to play with it.


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## clarkwgriswald (Sep 24, 2009)

Resistive loads have 100% power factor. The only time you have a bad pf is if you have capacitive or inductive resistance. These are resistances you cannot read with an ohm meter. They are created and create your total impedance, which is what you demand from the utility. When you have a leading or lagging pf, the power company has to provide more power, hence a pf penalty. Usually, the larger loads in a house are resistive; electric range, dryer, water heater. Motor loads in the house are what can cause a lagging pf and even though not penalized, still can cause a higher electric bill. Think of the inductive resistance as a load you are paying for but are not using. If you throw some capacitive resistance in there you are lowering your total circuit impedance. On the other hand if you do that and then turn the motor off, you now have a leading pf. The caps would need to be installed, sized, and switched with each motor load to be beneficial. These cap banks are usually used in commercial or industrial environments where motors are continuous. Other inductive loads in a building are transformers and ballasts.


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm happy we're discussing this on a more educated level. This is actually what my aim was when I first posted our findings.

To clarify, that PDF I posted actually timed a "numbered" utility meter, not an amp clamp. And a member posted re: "no load" motors which makes sense regarding PF.

My coments on PF were regarding motors. Yes the "utility" can penalize commercial customers for poor PF, they also employ "demand check" metering. 

I'm not trying to prove anything, I don't care, was just looking to discuss our test of the unit installed.

As mentioned, so far for two months in a row we are seeing a reduction of KWH usage in a residence.

Jeff Z.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

clarkwgriswald said:


> Motor loads in the house are what can cause a lagging pf and even though not penalized, still can cause a higher electric bill. Think of the inductive resistance as a load you are paying for but are not using.


If I thought about that statement from a layman's perspective I would be wondering why the appliance manufacturer wouldn't build this technology into every unit. They would save me money would they not. Then I would wonder why there are no major companies producing these devices for residential customers. You know, like Square D, General Electric, Cutler Hammer, etc.. I wonder why their researchers haven't discovered this science but the guys at "Power Saver" have? Then I would wonder why much more "intelligent" people like Al Gore, or the "Almighty" Barak Obama haven't been pushing this "miracle" of science. I would also wonder why nobody ever told me that the power company was charging me for "power" that I didn't even use. Somebody is not telling the truth.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

CFL said:


> If I thought about that statement from a layman's perspective I would be wondering why the appliance manufacturer wouldn't build this technology into every unit. They would save me money would they not. Then I would wonder why there are no major companies producing these devices for residential customers. You know, like Square D, General Electric, Cutler Hammer, etc.. I wonder why their researchers haven't discovered this science but the guys at "Power Saver" have? Then I would wonder why much more "intelligent" people like Al Gore, or the "Almighty" Barak Obama haven't been pushing this "miracle" of science. I would also wonder why nobody ever told me that the power company was charging me for "power" that I didn't even use. Somebody is not telling the truth.


Your exactly right

If this really worked it would be mandatory like all this energy star stuff is becoming.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have posted this before. A black box that does not measure PF and add;s capacitance as necessary to achieve close to unity PF (somewhere above .96-1.0). Would be pretty much worthless. 

You would add capacitance to the system regardless of the type of loads on the system and the systems PF and therefore could do as much harm to billing (assuming there was a PF penalty) as you would to reduce the cost under other loads.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

PF correction only makes sense if there are PF penalties, however I suppose you are actually saving the power company money by using PF correction in a residence. Your kW usage however will not change, thats what you get billed for using, the only thing a correction device changes is the kVAR's, or the energy required to set up the magnetic feilds for inductive devices, which is seen as current but does no real work. 

Again, snake oil. Funny thing is yesterday I had a flyer in my mailbox from a small local EC selling these devices installed wpromising 25-45% energy savings. I was so tempted to call him and start asking theory questions but decided not to waste my time. Anyone selling these either does not understand the theory or is simply a crook. 

If they really worked GE, Sq-D, C-H, and Siemens would all be selling them and like someone else mentioned Obama would require every household in the country to have one.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have posted this before. A black box that does not measure PF and add;s capacitance as necessary to achieve close to unity PF (somewhere above .96-1.0). Would be pretty much worthless.
> 
> You would add capacitance to the system regardless of the type of loads on the system and the systems PF and therefore could do as much harm to billing (assuming there was a PF penalty) as you would to reduce the cost under other loads.


Are there areas where residential customers are penalized? I always understood there is not.


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## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

A brand called powerworx is being sold at a local supply house. I cannot believe how many electricians believe that it works simply by the fact that it's being sold there next to sq d, ch, etc..


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## wiremanz (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm torn between theory and what I'm seeing first hand. As my elders always preached, "the proof is in the pudding". It's just a matter of time before this Cat is let out of the bag. Testing kvar technology now in two more homes. You all can argue physics and theory here. I'm pleased that what we owe the power company is less compared to billing cycles this last year. 

Further and as mentioned prior ^^... To get into commercial aspects of PF correction, testing and proprietary equipment is required.

KWH cost is up BIG time the past decade. Here in CT, we pay the highest rate for KWH used second only to Hawaii. This in my opinion is why any savings, be it a few percent or more, is well worth trying the device for ourselves.

My opinion stands and I hope someone else on this board will back me with actual field results some time soon. LMAO :thumbsup:

Jeff Z.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

wiremanz said:


> My opinion stands and I hope someone else on this board will back me with actual field results some time soon. LMAO :thumbsup:
> 
> Jeff Z.


Good luck with that :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Somewhere in CT a village is missing its idiot !!!!!


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

See here: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIThybewb_o


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Protech said:


> See here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIThybewb_o


Well done, that should end the debate. I would have liked to see you also measuring amps becasuse that is the (False) "proof" these scam artists are using to show "savings" to the poor victims that don't understand what PF and reactive load really is.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

wiremanz said:


> I'm torn between theory and what I'm seeing first hand. As my elders always preached, "the proof is in the pudding". It's just a matter of time before this Cat is let out of the bag. Testing kvar technology now in two more homes. You all can argue physics and theory here. I'm pleased that what we owe the power company is less compared to billing cycles this last year.
> 
> Further and as mentioned prior ^^... To get into commercial aspects of PF correction, testing and proprietary equipment is required.
> 
> ...


Forget about the "field results"! :no: There is way too much variability in month to month energy usage due to factors like outdoor temperature or basic living factors (i.e. water usage on well pump, cooking, lights, TV, etc.). Even comparing year over year would not be a good comparison of what the device has saved (or not saved). Things like sunny days versus overcast days may result in more lights being used inside, and a power usage increase. Take the variability out of these evaluations in a test lab, and lets see what happens...

The only legitimate way to properly evaluate any of these devices is in an independent lab environment with standardized tests and equipment. So far, nobody has decided to take that challenge. I have not been able to find any independent tests to backup or refute the claims of energy savings. Also, you would think the US gov't would validate such a device if it was true to its claims.

BTW, having a UL/CSA/ASHRAE or other similar "listing" does not validate the claims of the device. These listings only attest to the safety of the device. The device is currently listed under UL810 - Capacitors. Here's an excerpt from UL's website on what UL810 is:



> 1 Scope
> 
> 1.1 The requirements in Part i of this Standard apply to enclosed capacitors with integral protection intended to reduce the risk of rupture and venting of the capacitor enclosure under internal fault conditions. These requirements apply to oil-filled capacitors rated 5 kilovolts or less, and dry-type capacitors rated 2 kilovolts or less that are intended for use with appliances, lighting equipment, air conditioning and refrigeration equipment, motors, and the like, that comply with the requirements for such appliances and equipment.
> 1.1.1 The requirements of Part i may also be used to evaluate the construction only of these types of capacitors with ratings greater than the values noted in 1.1 but no greater than 7.2 kilovolts. Dry type capacitors intended to be located in circuits not requiring fault current protection may be evaluated using only the construction requirements of Part i.
> ...


Also when KVAR claims that the "the technology is recognized by the U.S. Department of Energy", and fails to supply a direct link to the information they are referencing, makes it look like a scam to me. An exhaustive search of the DOE website found mentions "power factor correction" in many documents, but does not have a stand-alone document to discuss it. In most cases they are talking distribution system capacitors, which are MUCH different from what KVAR is selling. Also, KVAR's claim to a University of Santa Clara Engineering department report are suspect as well. I have visited the SCU website and failed to find any white paper or other mention of "power factor" or "KVAR". It would be great if they supply the published link to that one too.

Heres a beauty of a quote from their websitehttp://www.kvarenergysavings.com/savingenergy.htm:


> Here is how we at KVAR save money and energy with the KVAR Energy Controller (KEC).
> It is installed anywhere power is consumed and the KEC unit sends the extra UNUSED power back to the power company.


Really?!?!? LOL! :laughing:


If you could find one independent test report (not commissioned by KVAR, PowerSave, or any other similar company), that fully documents the method, procedure and detailed results, I would be eager to see the evidence. :whistling2: Until that time, I am convinced that these devices are nothing but get-rich-quick schemes, multi-level marketing tactics, and snake oil...


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

wiremanz said:


> I'm torn between theory and what I'm seeing first hand. As my elders always preached, "the proof is in the pudding". It's just a matter of time before this Cat is let out of the bag. Testing kvar technology now in two more homes. You all can argue physics and theory here. I'm pleased that what we owe the power company is less compared to billing cycles this last year.
> 
> Further and as mentioned prior ^^... To get into commercial aspects of PF correction, testing and proprietary equipment is required.
> 
> ...


 For true results you need a control house. Our neighbor had this installed against my advice , after three months they came over to show me their big savings. I must admit that I did see a reduction in theit KWh usage as opposed to last year.

As Paul Harvey use to say "and now the rest of the story" 
I am always the first to admit I am wrong but I like to make sure before hand. After an hour of rummaging through old bills I found my bills for the same months last year and compared them to the present.
I was amazed to find that my KWH usage was also lower this year than last and I have no device installed.
Sorry Al Gore but we had the coolest July on record so the need for A/C was much less which is also one of the largest motor loads that would need PF correction.


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## jguidotti (Oct 28, 2009)

*Let's Be Clear and Educated*



brian john said:


> Crap, horse sh*t, junk, rip off, screwing your customer, criminally prosecutable sterling, snake oil, waste of money, bunk, road apples, black magic and if you really want my opinion well give me a few to get my thoughts together.


The theory behind applying capacitance to residential panels is not about I2R reductions which are minimal. The contributions involve inrush current at start up, improved torque and less wear and tear on the inductive loads, more robust voltage and less surging within the building. Additional, this technique (panel units on homes) is the most cost effective, readily available way to increase the capacity of the grid and less expensive than increased capacity from fossil fuels or renewable energy.

If you have not installed one of these, then you are basically throwing money away each month.


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## jguidotti (Oct 28, 2009)

*Argonne Labs*



LJSMITH1 said:


> Forget about the "field results"! :no: There is way too much variability in month to month energy usage due to factors like outdoor temperature or basic living factors (i.e. water usage on well pump, cooking, lights, TV, etc.). Even comparing year over year would not be a good comparison of what the device has saved (or not saved). Things like sunny days versus overcast days may result in more lights being used inside, and a power usage increase. Take the variability out of these evaluations in a test lab, and lets see what happens...
> 
> The only legitimate way to properly evaluate any of these devices is in an independent lab environment with standardized tests and equipment. So far, nobody has decided to take that challenge. I have not been able to find any independent tests to backup or refute the claims of energy savings. Also, you would think the US gov't would validate such a device if it was true to its claims.
> 
> ...



Larry, there are tons. Argonne Lab has a white paper. Bonneville Power completed a study. NASA tested the product in 1995. There is tons of stuff out there. Don't install one....it's your loss.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I saw an ad for a residential "Eco-power4" at the bottom of this thread.
If you see it, click on it and let Google Ads send him a huge bill


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

Link???



jguidotti said:


> Larry, there are tons. Argonne Lab has a white paper. Bonneville Power completed a study. NASA tested the product in 1995. There is tons of stuff out there. Don't install one....it's your loss.


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## LJSMITH1 (May 4, 2009)

jguidotti said:


> Larry, there are tons. Argonne Lab has a white paper. Bonneville Power completed a study. NASA tested the product in 1995. There is tons of stuff out there. Don't install one....it's your loss.


 
Really?? "Tons"? I would think that all of the searching I have done over the past year would have come up with something. Please provide links or copies of the *independent test reports* you are talking about. The reports MUST show how the unit saves ENERGY (KWh) - because that is what the power company charges for. Power Factor correction is irrelevant in residential as most everyone is being charged by the KWh.


Just a followup...I searched under numerous terms like "power saver", "power factor", "KVAR", "Capacitance", etc...at the Argonne Labs website http://www.anl.gov/. Either they make it intentionally obscure...or there is no such published report. As for Bonneville Power's "Study", here it is http://www.electritech.net/articles/energy_efficiency/Reducing%20Power%20Factor%20Cost.pdf. Again...only deals with anyone who is being charged due to a poor power factor - not residential customers...

Finally, one more article to drive the point home once and for all...

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

You troll/spammers need to give this KVAR **** a rest

NO electrician falls for this crap

Figures someone with 2 posts under their belt resurected this old thread and is now spamming bull**** on it


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jguidotti said:


> If you have not installed one of these, then you are basically throwing money away each month.


:laughing: 

:ban: this **** please


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jguidotti said:


> The theory behind applying capacitance to residential panels is not about I2R reductions which are minimal. The contributions involve inrush current at start up, improved torque and less wear and tear on the inductive loads, more robust voltage and less surging within the building. Additional, this technique (panel units on homes) is the most cost effective, readily available way to increase the capacity of the grid and less expensive than increased capacity from fossil fuels or renewable energy.
> 
> If you have not installed one of these, then you are basically throwing money away each month.


I have not read your web SALES PITCH, but if you are like all the other peddler's of this HOODOO VOODOO engineering then either you are misstating your product now or on your web site. You claim, THE FACTS are in all the white papers, those papers are either misstated or figments of your imagination.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jguidotti said:


> . Additional, this technique (panel units on homes) is the most cost effective, readily available way to increase the capacity of the grid and less expensive than increased capacity from fossil fuels or renewable energy.
> 
> .


Which is why the utility has cap banks at their substation. My job is not to save the utility money. 


Maybe you should go to DC and hit Big "O" up with how you will save the grid with your product.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Normally civility should be maintained in this forum but as you fall into the category of a full fledged 
BUTT WIPE read the following. (from LJSMITHS1 links).



> ENERGY STAR does not qualify any Power Factor Correction Devices. Please send us an email at [email protected] if you see one that claims to be ENERGY STAR certified.


Is this from your website?



> It is installed anywhere power is consumed and the KEC unit sends the extra UNUSED power back to the power company.


 
Let's be clear and educated, send a link to your product I'll buy one and test it for a year if I save no money you refund the purchase price and 10% of my electric bill which by most scammers sales pitches is a minimum of my projected savings.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Please post a link to your product.
Please post the "WHITE PAPERS" you claim are out there by the 1/2 ton I cannot afford the time to read a ton of paper.

Tell me how you you know what the pf of a house you have never visited is?
How do you know the size for this product site unseen?
What happens to an all electric house running at 100% resistive load and your device is operating.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

From your web site



> Yes, but the EcoPower4 must be installed by a professional electrician. Installation requires opening the electrical panel, exposing potentially dangerous high voltage wires. The unit comes with complete installation instructions and installs in about 15-30 minutes.


MUST BE INSTALLED BY A PROFESIONAL. NO professional would install this CRAP. So in theory they will never be installed, Thank goodness we solved that problem now on to NEC and electrical issues that have some meanings to US PROFESSIONALS.

Now boys for the truth EcoTrust Energy. If ever there was a scam name.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Kvar*



brian john said:


> Please post a link to your product.
> Please post the "WHITE PAPERS" you claim are out there by the 1/2 ton I cannot afford the time to read a ton of paper.
> 
> Tell me how you you know what the pf of a house you have never visited is?
> ...


In an all electric house running at 100% resistive load and the device is operating ,the current through the meter will go up when the device is inserted to the electrical system.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Even our local utility has published warnings about these scams. :blink:

Click here for the newsletter and then scroll to page 3 of the newsletter for the article:

No "magic" to cut home energy costs



> ....the legal but rather ineffective devices ... promise to "fix up" a consumer's power in some way. The device likely won't harm anything, but neither will it save the buyer a noticeable amount of money on his power bill...


Sounds very familiar, doesn't it?


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

This issue will never die. There will be a never ending train of snake oil/get rich quick guys coming in here explaining that the entire mainstream electrical industry has missed something big


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Protech said:


> This issue will never die. There will be a never ending train of snake oil/get rich quick guys coming in here explaining that the entire mainstream electrical industry has missed something big


If it worked, Square-D, Cutler Hammer, and GE would be making them, not "EcoTrust"


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

No man, they are part of a conspiracy to keep peoples power bills high! They know about this advanced technology. They just don’t want us to have it.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Sheesh, just when you thought you'd seen it all! Here is Protech's post, and right below it there is an ad to click about this very same thing!! Looks like they are sponsoring this forum?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Kvar*



Protech said:


> This issue will never die. There will be a never ending train of snake oil/get rich quick guys coming in here explaining that the entire mainstream electrical industry has missed something big


 I see a lot of people in your corner.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*kvar*



brian john said:


> From your web site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brian, is there a reason you used the example that you did?(100% resistive) In re-reading I know I quoted the wrong quote, but it's the right Brian. Thanks.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Brian, is there a reason you used the example that you did?(100% resistive)


Resistive loads have a unity (100%) power factor.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Kvar*



JohnJ0906 said:


> Resistive loads have a unity (100%) power factor.


Okay, thanks. I knew that , but was wondering if you were baiting someone who knew the difference between RESISTIVE load and REACTIVE load. Thanks.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

.............


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## Protech (Aug 6, 2009)

.........


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