# Relocating All branch circuits Best Way??



## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

I've done this before. I have just swung up the cables into the ceiling, used 2 or 3 large boxes to splice in, and ran matching romexes out to the new location.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bluzman said:


> HAve a customer who contacted me about wanting to move his Subpanel from his Basement to his Attached garage where his main panel is already located. He is in a area that was affected by Sandy and is worring about his basement flooding again the water level came just under his panel and there is no room to raise it up. It apperas to me that previously someone ran 99% of his branch circuits to his subpanel, So were talking about relocating about 24 single pole circuits and 8 2 pole's of various size from 15 amp to 60 amp. I am trying to come up with the most cost effective way as far as using either multiple pipe runs or just moving all the circuits using romex. I was thinking if I went the romex route to use 12/2/2 for all the 15/20 amp loads and then the proper size romex for the larger loads and such. the basement has an open ceiling with a pretty straight shot to the garage.
> Has anyone here done any jobs like this before? and what method did you use. If I go pipe style I would run 1 1/2" pipes with #10's so I could derate 50% and still get 20 amp capacity from the circuits... but the way its looking I would need a whole rack of pipes.
> Any HELP would be great .


Do it like this..


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

do it in UF


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Do it like this..


That is the cleanest plastered, basement ceiling I've ever seen.


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## MollyHatchet29 (Jan 24, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Do it like this..


Damn, Harry... This is your work? Super clean!


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

running boards are the way to go if ya can't hawg out....easy...neat...meets code..cost friendy to the ho and profitable....nice job Harry:thumbsup:


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## Bluzman (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks Guys, I guess romex will be the way to go. my total length with leaving some for dressing in the panel and pull box or boxes would be about 70 feet. I have open rafters running the majority of the length in the right direction so i can run in the bay and staple to the joist, just going to be a lot of cables. IS it worth using the 12/2/2 and 14/2/2 to cut down the number of cables ? With the new Multiconductors rules I want to keep serperate neutrals. I think I answered my own question while writing I counted up my cable list and would need a total of 21 cables to move all circuits. Thanks again guys, and Nice neat install Harry.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Do it like this..


Those are YOUR pictures, right? Heh, heh...nice work!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Bluzman said:


> Thanks Guys, I guess romex will be the way to go. my total length with leaving some for dressing in the panel and pull box or boxes would be about 70 feet. I have open rafters running the majority of the length in the right direction so i can run in the bay and staple to the joist, just going to be a lot of cables. IS it worth using the 12/2/2 and 14/2/2 to cut down the number of cables ? With the new Multiconductors rules I want to keep serperate neutrals. I think I answered my own question while writing I counted up my cable list and would need a total of 21 cables to move all circuits. Thanks again guys, and Nice neat install Harry.


You are extending circuits, what code cycle are you on(AFCI)


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

MollyHatchet29 said:


> Damn, Harry... This is your work? Super clean!


It is really neat work, but it looks like it must have taken a long time. 

I would have just hung a bunch of bridal rings and went to town :whistling2:


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dangerously said:


> It is really neat work, but it looks like it must have taken a long time.
> 
> I would have just hung a bunch of bridal rings and went to town :whistling2:


That is hack IMO and you may get nailed for bundling.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> That is hack IMO and you may get nailed for bundling.


Many bridal rings, no bundling issues.

Why is it hack? How is it any different that the miles of MC run above ceilings? :laughing:

Do you think a customer would know the difference?

Tell you what, offer them both prices, see if they are willing to pay twice as much for all that labor in order for it not be called "hack". How many customers do you really think will pay the extra price if given the choice?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> It is really neat work, but it looks like it must have taken a long time.
> 
> I would have just hung a bunch of bridal rings and went to town :whistling2:


I don't think that would fly here,And yes it took some time But that was covered with the price and then some,I gave then an extra high price and they did not hesitate and said go.

I had it set up so all the cables were run ,so when I did the cut over I just had to rip out all the old fuse boxes and cut the BX into the cans then cut in the weather head turn on the new panel and test everything then cut down the old 1 1/4" RMC16' on the side of the house then another 40' in the basement,Good one for the copper pile..:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I think you did a great job.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I think you did a great job.


Me too, except for the Home Owner Special Staples :laughing::thumbup:










Yes Harry, I know they are required in your nanny state :thumbsup: :laughing:


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

> Many bridal rings, no bundling issues.


The more bridal rings you install, the more bundling issues you may have...not to mention the "protection from physical damage".


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> Me too, except for the Home Owner Special Staples :laughing::thumbup:
> Yes Harry, I know they are required in your nanny state :thumbsup: :laughing:


Plus you cannot buy the uninsulated type here.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Deep Cover said:


> The more bridal rings you install, the more bundling issues you may have...


Tell me what a "bundling issue" is...? 

You run 4 per ring and you're good. Maybe more but I don't feel like ruining a Sunday with the NEC. 



> not to mention the "protection from physical damage".


 What's the different from what is there right now?


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Plus you cannot buy the uninsulated type here.


You can't get your hands on pre-ban staples? What if I sent you some, would that be a felony? :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> You can't get your hands on pre-ban staples? What if I sent you some, would that be a felony? :laughing:


Executions...:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> You can't get your hands on pre-ban staples?  What if I sent you some, would that be a felony? :laughing:


The staple police come to your home, kick your door in and smash your TV.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> The staple police come to your home, kick your door in and smash your TV.


Hey that's a good rule ,It will create more flat screen hang jobs...:thumbup::laughing:


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## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

Dangerously said:


> Tell me what a "bundling issue" is...?
> 
> You run 4 per ring and you're good. Maybe more but I don't feel like ruining a Sunday with the NEC.
> 
> What's the different from what is there right now?


Here I thought you were going to run as many cables as you can thru the rings. Ok, so you eliminated the bundling issue.

Now you have 4 or 5 sets of rings with loose romex hanging down 2 inches from the ceiling. To me, that is certainly subject to physical damage, but with some of the pics I have seen of what is legal elsewhere, my state may be more strict on that issue.


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Deep Cover said:


> The more bridal rings you install, the more bundling issues you may have...not to mention the "protection from physical damage".


It depends on your area inspectors but here when I need to I use Hilti straps. They have two sizes and the nice thing is each is able to open an install additional wires once up. They are sweet for quickly running long distances throw up two or three and run wires then install the rest to code.
They are pricy though but listed so we use them instead of romex or wire loops etc. here the inspectors in some areas won't allow but put the same amount in the Hilti straps no problem :thumbup:


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

...copper pile ??.....pizzia and beer at Harry's...:thumbup:


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Executions...:laughing:


I'm sorry Harry, but I cannot accept your friend request until you apologize for the horrible things you said about me. My Mom doesn't even have a basement, it's just a 4' crawlspace and even I wouldn't live down there (big spiders).


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTbXoVKIlk

Has anyone tried this? Nice job by the way Harry.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

BIGRED said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTbXoVKIlk
> 
> Has anyone tried this? Nice job by the way Harry.


I was thinking of something like that, but then I figured it would be an issue with some inspectors for bundling. That definitely looks like a great system and would save a crapload of time while still looking nice and neat.


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

That was my throught the arlington trough....


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> It depends on your area inspectors but here when I need to I use Hilti straps. They have two sizes and the nice thing is each is able to open an install additional wires once up. They are sweet for quickly running long distances throw up two or three and run wires then install the rest to code.
> They are pricy though but listed so we use them instead of romex or wire loops etc. here the inspectors in some areas won't allow but put the same amount in the Hilti straps no problem :thumbup:


What are these hilti straps?


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## Bluzman (Jun 5, 2011)

backstay said:


> You are extending circuits, what code cycle are you on(AFCI)


Hmm interesting point. I thought that the extension of the circuit was only with addition of new devices on an existing branch circuit. That would raise the cost up alot, Ill have to contact the AHJ I guess I couldn't imagine them enforcing the AFCI rules with all this flood damage stuff, but you never know. the town is probably a few code cycles back.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Bluzman said:


> Hmm interesting point. I thought that the extension of the circuit was only with addition of new devices on an existing branch circuit. That would raise the cost up alot, Ill have to contact the AHJ I guess I couldn't imagine them enforcing the AFCI rules with all this flood damage stuff, but you never know. the town is probably a few code cycles back.


If you extend the circuit and it is an area that requires arcfaults, you need to put a arcfault breaker in. I don't see anything that says either end.


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## Bluzman (Jun 5, 2011)

Whats the code article on that showing the extension ? what if the exisitng branch circuits are run as 3 wires or are jumbled about between non afci required rooms. ?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bluzman said:


> Whats the code article on that showing the extension ? what if the exisitng branch circuits are run as 3 wires or are jumbled about between non afci required rooms. ?


210.12 covers AFCI's.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Bluzman said:


> Whats the code article on that showing the extension ? what if the exisitng branch circuits are run as 3 wires or are jumbled about between non afci required rooms. ?


You mean like a SABC feeding a dinning room. And have you seen two pole AFCI breakers?


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## Bluzman (Jun 5, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> 210.12 covers AFCI's.


 Yep was all over it but I'm reading and using 2008, i'm guessing all you guys are quoting from 2011. I dont see a mention of a circuit extension in 210.12 or in part A, or B or the UNenforcable FPN's , so what is the code article about circuit extensions and the defenition of a circuit extension. 

Pretty sure the town is on 08 or maybe even 05. Keep me posted Boys.

And yes I have seen a 2 pole AFCI .. thx


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## Neoursa (Sep 22, 2012)

Super clean job. From the older post I saw you couldn't do a sub panel there.

Curious, Why not EMT and unistrut?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Neoursa said:


> Super clean job. From the older post I saw you couldn't do a sub panel there.
> 
> Curious, Why not EMT and unistrut?


I know Harry could do that but you have to look at the other angle is the time to work with the EMT conduits and you have to remember the numbers of conductors you can able run in the conduit without get affected by derating.

IMO for myself I can go either way depending on how it lay out.

As Harry did posted the photo what he done I will do the same thing as well ( oh by the way if you are wonding about our French code about useing that arrangment the answer is OUI we do the same thing ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I would have put new bx connectors,but other than that I'm jealous.:thumbup:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Harry how long did it take you to do the work?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bluzman said:


> HAve a customer who contacted me about wanting to move his Subpanel from his Basement to his Attached garage where his main panel is already located. He is in a area that was affected by Sandy and is worring about his basement flooding again the water level came just under his panel and there is no room to raise it up. It apperas to me that previously someone ran 99% of his branch circuits to his subpanel, So were talking about relocating about 24 single pole circuits and 8 2 pole's of various size from 15 amp to 60 amp. I am trying to come up with the most cost effective way as far as using either multiple pipe runs or just moving all the circuits using romex. I was thinking if I went the romex route to use 12/2/2 for all the 15/20 amp loads and then the proper size romex for the larger loads and such. the basement has an open ceiling with a pretty straight shot to the garage.
> Has anyone here done any jobs like this before? and what method did you use. If I go pipe style I would run 1 1/2" pipes with #10's so I could derate 50% and still get 20 amp capacity from the circuits... but the way its looking I would need a whole rack of pipes.
> Any HELP would be great .


Really, I would go with pipe. Much better looking for the HO than romex no matter how neat it was installed, it's just looks like a bunch of Romex.


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## MIKEFLASH (Apr 14, 2012)

Fine job on your install harry


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Deep Cover said:


> The more bridal rings you install, the more bundling issues you may have...not to mention the "protection from physical damage".


Just curious if anyone here has ever been tagged for "bundling issues" ? I haven't


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