# AFCI,Troubleshoting.



## Deep Cover (Dec 8, 2012)

> So,,,,,What are your trouble shooting methods to fix and find these tripping problems.


Remove all loads from the circuit. Divide and conquer.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Deep Cover said:


> Remove all loads from the circuit. Divide and conquer.


You replied too fast now I cannot fix the title...:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Many here will hate this but after a review of what trips them out and an inspection of the circuit , it usually ends up in a removal and restoration with standard breaker. Sorry but many here like myself know that these things don't trip over a true arc situation and I'm not in the business of losing customers because a treadmill or vacuum trips the breaker and then makes me look incompetant because the replacement AFCI doesn't fix the problem.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Many here will hate this but after a review of what trips them out and an inspection of the circuit , it usually ends up in a removal and restoration with standard breaker. Sorry but many here like myself know that these things don't trip over a true arc situation and I'm not in the business of losing customers because a treadmill or vacuum trips the breaker and then makes me look incompetant because the replacement AFCI doesn't fix the problem.


Shock, how much liability are you opening yourself up to by replacing an AFCI breaker with a standard breaker? Do you have any concern on this issue?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It wouldn't be so bad if they took the product back and refunded us when it malfunctions

But being what they do is voodoo in the first place , they can always claim operator error on our part

That said, the only function we need to worry about is 30ma , every outlet in a dwelling could be arcin' in _series_, they won't do a blessed think

So look for that which is simply a_ parallel_ event, motor commutators, high end dimmers utilizing the grounding conductor, bundled noodles, remote control devices, electronic ballasts.


Most of it will be intermittent events you'll need to_ 'recreate'._, few of the afci TS i've done have had any noodle to ground continuity right from the start....


~CS~


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> It wouldn't be so bad if they took the product back and refunded us when it malfunctions
> 
> But being what they do is voodoo in the first place , they can always claim operator error on our part
> 
> ...


I'm sure you can bring them back.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I'm sure you can bring them back.


You'll need a reason Harry

and it's gotta be more than _'i can't get this widget to work'_

~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> Shock, how much liability are you opening yourself up to by replacing an AFCI breaker with a standard breaker? Do you have any concern on this issue?


I always explain the problem, the code, the defects and the payoff to the customer. I give them the final call in the elimination process, there is also the agreement of cash and no reciept for the work.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's not like eaton tech support is gonna help anyone with an intermittent afci problem out Doc, in fact i found them to be rather obnoxious ~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> It's not like eaton tech support is gonna help anyone with an intermittent afci problem out Doc, in fact i found them to be rather obnoxious ~CS~


The only thing Eaton is gonna do is playback that staged Youtube clip of the clownboy creating an arc that trips the circuit breaker in a lame attempt to win the hearts of the meek and clueless. I need some of that old time miracle tonic that grows hair in bald spots, I'd have more faith in that over an AFCI.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

I refuse to do those jobs. I just tell the person I"m too busy and give them my competitors phone # and wish them luck. It never ends good it seems


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## elecpatsfan (Oct 1, 2010)

Lately I've been thinking of putting the choice of a.f. with home owner. If you want to go with a.f. protection after circuit modifications I will write a receipt. If you do not want a. f. , no receipt and I was never there. What do you guys think? (as if I don't know the answer)


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

elecpatsfan said:


> Lately I've been thinking of putting the choice of a.f. with home owner. If you want to go with a.f. protection after circuit modifications I will write a receipt. If you do not want a. f. , no receipt and I was never there. What do you guys think? (as if I don't know the answer)




Start adding up just how much we , as EC's have had to eat in terms of callbacks, changing them out for another afci, and i'll wager it's probably being done more than most will admit Patsfan.....~CS~


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

How do you fix a problem when the problem is the product. I fought one for a year until Eaton finally changed the product and the breaker would hold. There was never a wiring issue. That was 5 trips back(1/2 hour one way) and three new breakers. The only reason the customer kept me was trust on their part. I couldn't charge them a dime as it was a new house I had wired.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What was connected to it to cause the trouble? I think they have spent a bunch on small appliances to look at what causes their product to trip when it shouldn't. For me its been lighting, ballasts and cfls. Not rampant, but a few head scratchers, one on siemens, the other Eaton.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

I think after reading these posts our co. will print up a waiver stating these devices are problematic ,we can not warranty them,call backs are going to cost them money.If they want to bitch I will provide contact info for the A.H.J.,whoever writes the code book (I forget there name),Their congressman,Senator,and Obama.I`ll tell them not to "shoot the messenger" it`s out of my hands,or something like that.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> What was connected to it to cause the trouble? I think they have spent a bunch on small appliances to look at what causes their product to trip when it shouldn't. For me its been lighting, ballasts and cfls. Not rampant, but a few head scratchers, one on siemens, the other Eaton.


Treadmill on an on unrelated circuit would trip the arcfault for the LR when it was switched on. The fix was when they came out with the breaker that has two lights on it. The factory techs said to try the new style and that's what fixed it. Arcfault breakers are a joke. That one problem cost me at least a $1000.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

And what are the fat cats in the NFPA doing about this knowing these things are problematic and ineffective? Adding more of them to the books, how much money did they slip you NFPA azzholes?


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## frankft (Jan 26, 2008)

I was told when AFCI's first came out, that after the R&D was paid off, that the prices of these would drop. They have not dropped one cent! How can all these different manufactures have the same price on their breakers, without some kind of collusion going on. These AFCI's are illegal on may different fronts.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

frankft said:


> I was told when AFCI's first came out, that after the R&D was paid off, that the prices of these would drop. They have not dropped one cent! How can all these different manufactures have the same price on their breakers, without some kind of collusion going on. These AFCI's are illegal on may different fronts.


Welcome to ET frank..:thumbup:

Collusion...:yes:

But they are not going away..:no:


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## frankft (Jan 26, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Welcome to ET frank..:thumbup:
> 
> Collusion...:yes:
> 
> But they are not going away..:no:


Thanks, my first post, but have been a member for a long time.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

backstay said:


> Treadmill on an on unrelated circuit would trip the arcfault for the LR when it was switched on. The fix was when they came out with the breaker that has two lights on it. The factory techs said to try the new style and that's what fixed it. Arcfault breakers are a joke. That one problem cost me at least a $1000.



Sounds like they might have given you the next version while it was still a prototype BackStay

The first versions were a complete disaster , which Vermont just _had _to jump the gun and amend in above NEC in '98

Long story short, it's not uncommon to find a decade old install of 20 Version one AFCI's in a 40 circuit panel here

The only reason they quit tripping out is because most of them have assumed enough voltage spikes to the point where the only thing that _might_ still work is the test button. _(and i have it on good authority this does not suggest an operational afci)_

So, now we have a whole era of wiring, circa '98 to somewhere around '04-'05 that is not only outdated technology, it's most likely disfunctional as well

ergo, the Q i've asked tech support, inspectors , the state, the iaei.......*WHO IS LIABLE?*

~CS~


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)

Just heard today sqD brought out new snap in afci breakers and 54 circuit Panels .my boss had rep in to show him .


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## Ubersparky (Apr 26, 2013)

I have delt with this issue a ton. I have discovered that the inattentiveness of my employees trim out styles leads to the ground wire being too near(1 cm) the neutral screw on a device. This will cause intermittant tripping of an afci. Taping the Ground wire with 33+ will fix the problem. So will an extra second to make sure it is completely out of the way, in the box. 

Face it, I just saved the day.


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## doogie (Feb 16, 2011)




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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I view AFCI protection as this whole EPA lead paint disaster. The idea is a good one the implementation is all f ed up. 
Hopefully, without shooting myself in the foot here, I have had some issues but not too many.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

*AFCI Crapolla*

Here's a scenario,
Changed out existing outlets to tamper proof in a family room.
(The lady lives alone).
Installed an AFCI for the 7 receptacles involved and it wouldn't take.
Tested each outlet, no apparent problems, installed a standard S.P. breaker and works fine. 

Make sure you wear your seat belt, wear a helmet, smoke 50 feet from the building, pray the government keeps you safe, work for free.

Bollocks.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Not all trips are crappy arc faults. If you've got mixed neutrals, or a neutral-ground fault, or depending on the model of AFCI, even a high-resistance hot ground-fault, it could trip the AFCI legitimately. Back when I did houses I was actually on a crew with a guy who was not allowed to wire bedrooms because he consistently caused ground-faults that tripped the AFCIs. 

A quick check is to scab the circuit into a GFCI and see if it trips. If it does, you know you've got a problem to find.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Many here will hate this but after a review of what trips them out and an inspection of the circuit , it usually ends up in a removal and restoration with standard breaker. Sorry but many here like myself know that these things don't trip over a true arc situation and I'm not in the business of losing customers because a treadmill or vacuum trips the breaker and then makes me look incompetant because the replacement AFCI doesn't fix the problem.


 
Sometimes you have no choice but to remove them. And truth is its unlikely they will work when needed, slight over voltages kill the electronics, heck some Ive found not to trip at all when pushing the test button.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

doogie said:


> View attachment 24666


 



So wait, a short circuit bolted fault will take 5 seconds to clear. Now I really believe in AFCIs:laughing: Seriously what am I missing?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

meadow said:


> ...So wait, a short circuit bolted fault will take 5 seconds to clear. Now I really believe in AFCIs:laughing: Seriously what am I missing?


 :lol: I didn't even notice that, I just thought it was cool that they were finally including a built-in diagnostic. I also like how the breaker will respond exactly the same to "short circuit" as "no fault" because they're practically the same thing!


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Big John said:


> :lol: I didn't even notice that, I just thought it was cool that they were finally including a built-in diagnostic. I also like how the breaker will respond exactly the same to "short circuit" as "no fault" because they're practically the same thing!


:laughing: My guess is the self diagnostic is memory based and only works with the branch circuit disconnected. A series of indicator lights would have served the same purpose, rather thn making it even more complex.





Shockdoc said:


> And what are the fat cats in the NFPA doing about this knowing these things are problematic and ineffective? Adding more of them to the books, how much money did they slip you NFPA azzholes?


Covering it up along with the companies through scare tactics and false studies. Lets not forget the kerosene soaked cotton on the lamp cord videos:laughing: From what I gather I think manufacturers from repeated complaints have just greatly disabled the arc logic in the circuit board and just left the 30 ma GFCI. Heck GE has already taken the 30ma out. Yet we still pay the same price for a false reality.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

I have to admit, these are pretty new to me.
I didn't have much time to troubleshoot, but customer did have one of those cheap surge protector clusters underneath her computer station, and it was loaded with plugs.
I'm wondering if that had something to do with it.
I went around with my OK tester and everything checked out.


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## Caustic CC (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh, and thanks to everyone for helping me sleep a little better...


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