# Lights without a switch?



## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

Newbie here. I do mostly commercial, panel change outs, and parking lot work. I'm doing some work to my investment property, a duplex, and wanted to put the common stairwell lighting on a circuit without having a switch on the wall. I've talked to a few guys at my shop and they seemed to be against it, but without any real good reason or code. 

The main reason I want to do it is because I don't want the light being switched off by either tenant for safety reasons. I know this could be fixed with a switch cover, but the other reason is because there is no good place to put the switches and run the wire, which would have to be a 3-way. It's old plaster walls, and I've already got enough repair going on to get involved with another mess in the stairs if I can help it. I can actually get to the light itself pretty easily because of the way the ceiling joists run.

What do you all think? Horrible idea?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

How about a motion sensor near the light.


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## rnichols (Apr 19, 2011)

Or a timer? Have it go on and off at a certain time...


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> How about a motion sensor near the light.


 There are different styles of occupancy sensors, that work very well.

Some are hardly noticeable, and blend in.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> How about a motion sensor near the light.


I considered that, but it's a tight spiral type staircase that goes from the basement to the 2nd floor. There are really 3 fixtures I'm replacing. One is on the 2nd floor ceiling (basically up against the flat roof), one is on the wall in the stairs between the outside door and the few steps to the 1st floor apartment (has easy access), and the other is on the ceiling at the bottom of the basement steps (unfinished). A motion sensor on the lights themselves couldn't really deduct motion at good enough angles to provide adequate lighting. 

I would probably just run conduit or wiremold to switches on the wall, but it's a tight staircase already. That is how the basement light switch currently is. I just had to repair the handybox after it got knocked off the wall by a tenant moving a dryer.

I considered a photocell, but there is only one window upstairs and on the outside door. It's next to another building so there really isn't much light and the thing would basically be on all the time anyway.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

In Canada you wouldn't need a switch.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

TLinSTL said:


> Newbie here. I do mostly commercial, panel change outs, and parking lot work. I'm doing some work to my investment property, a duplex, and wanted to put the common stairwell lighting on a circuit without having a switch on the wall. I've talked to a few guys at my shop and they seemed to be against it, but without any real good reason or code.
> 
> The main reason I want to do it is because I don't want the light being switched off by either tenant for safety reasons. I know this could be fixed with a switch cover, but the other reason is because there is no good place to put the switches and run the wire, which would have to be a 3-way. It's old plaster walls, and I've already got enough repair going on to get involved with another mess in the stairs if I can help it. I can actually get to the light itself pretty easily because of the way the ceiling joists run.
> 
> What do you all think? Horrible idea?


Do you need the lights on 24/7 or just at night?

If just at night you can put up a photo eye / or a self adjusting time clock.


Welcome to the forum..........:thumbup::thumbup:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

You want Hubbell hbl 1209


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## pjg (Nov 11, 2008)

You might want to look at 210.25 (B). If you only have one fixture it would need to be fed from a house panel.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> You want Hubbell hbl 1209


Have a link?


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Grainger.com


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Aube’s TI032-3W programmable switch. 

I've used these and like them.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> Grainger.com



All that is ,Is a Key....:laughing:...


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## watts77 (Dec 3, 2010)

Are they on their own circuit?


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Do you need the lights on 24/7 or just at night?
> 
> If just at night you can put up a photo eye / or a self adjusting time clock.
> 
> ...


Because there isn't much natural light (very close to another building on that side), a photo eye would probably keep them on nearly all of the time anyway. I personally would be ok without light a lot of the time during the day, but I'm worried about liability since I'm not there, tenants are. If someone else was to fall down the steps and then claim it was too dark and they couldn't see because the photo cell had not turned the lights on soon enough (open to interpretation), and they had no other way to turn on the light, it would make me look pretty negligent.

Thanks for the welcome. I love forums like this. There is so much information to be learned.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

pjg said:


> You might want to look at 210.25 (B). If you only have one fixture it would need to be fed from a house panel.


I'm pretty familiar with that. I specifically asked about this during a similar job since I knew that was how mine were setup. We don't have an amendment for that, but our ESIs don't seem to care about that too much as long as long as all the tenants ready access to the breakers for the lights (or anything for that matter). Based on that along with my 2 panels that are in the shared basement being replaced and new laundry circuits added in the basement common area passing inspection just 4 years ago (before I bought it), I think I'll be ok. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY do not one to have to install a house panel and pay the ridiculous electric surcharges along with my tenants washer and dryer bills.

It may just be because we have so many really old duplex and multi-family units in this city setup that way. If the panel for the lights was in one of the apartments, it probably would not fly.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

watts77 said:


> Are they on their own circuit?


Not currently. They are split up randomly along with the basement lights to each tenant. It's old knob and tube, way past it's useful life, and that's why I'm even messing with it. They are each going to take their own, distant path to the panel and hopefully continue to be split up to each tenant.

I have in my lease agreement that common area lights are shared among tenants and they are responsible for the electric fees associated with the lights. Trouble is, one tenant (now gone) wanted to save 50 cents/ month and shut the lights off all the time, while the other wants it on when they get home at night.

I might add to future contracts that the rent includes a $5 deduction (high for 3 CFLs) to pay for the common lights.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

bobelectric said:


> You want Hubbell hbl 1209


I would do something like that, but I'm trying to avoid tearing out the plaster and creating a huge mess to make the lights work as a 4-way.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

Just realized 210.70A(2)(a) says you need a switched light in every stairwell. Subdivision (c) says a switch has to be on every level there is a entryway. It gives an exception for remote, central, and automatic. I think always-on qualifies as "automatic", right?


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## DCAC (Feb 11, 2011)

Is there a switch for these lights now? remove the switch, put a blank cover on the j-box & place a battery back up in the light fixture itself.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

a breaker is a switch, and they're "central"


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

kaboler said:


> a breaker is a switch, and they're "central"


You can't use a regular breaker as a switch. You need a breaker rated for switching.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

TLinSTL said:


> Not currently. They are split up randomly along with the basement lights to each tenant. It's old knob and tube, way past it's useful life, and that's why I'm even messing with it. They are each going to take their own, distant path to the panel and hopefully continue to be split up to each tenant.
> 
> I have in my lease agreement that common area lights are shared among tenants and they are responsible for the electric fees associated with the lights. Trouble is, one tenant (now gone) wanted to save 50 cents/ month and shut the lights off all the time, while the other wants it on when they get home at night.
> 
> I might add to future contracts that the rent includes a $5 deduction (high for 3 CFLs) to pay for the common lights.


You cheap SOAB. Common fees, property taxes, water, heat etc- anything that can't be metered by a 3rd pty agency and billed directly to the tenant- should be included in the rent. I can't stand landlords that nickel and dime their renters. Rent is rent and utility bills come from the utility. If my landlord started charging me to mow the lawn or $5 for my block heater or something I'd tell him to pound sand.


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## TLinSTL (Nov 28, 2011)

cguillas said:


> You cheap SOAB. Common fees, property taxes, water, heat etc- anything that can't be metered by a 3rd pty agency and billed directly to the tenant- should be included in the rent. I can't stand landlords that nickel and dime their renters. Rent is rent and utility bills come from the utility. If my landlord started charging me to mow the lawn or $5 for my block heater or something I'd tell him to pound sand.


It is included in the rent. The rent price is the rent price; no other fees. That includes the place to stay, water, trash, sewer, and common lights. That $5 comment is only to say, your rent is $675, but you get a deduction of $5 because you have to pay the electricity for the common lights, therefore making your payment only $670. It's a reduction in the price, not an extra charge. I only do that so they realize they are paying the fee for the lights and don't expect to come to me a year later expecting I give them money because they paid $2/month for the common lights because they went through their meter.

It easier than writing them a check for $5 every month after they have paid me rent.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh, I get you. I take back everything!

I once rented a room temporarily while I was waiting for the closing date on a house. There was already a tenant and she said that she paid the landlord rent+hydro. I asked her why she hadn't set up an account with the utility and she didn't even know she could! The landlord was charging her flat rate, cash only, $100/mo for electricity and she paid it without question. Realistically her consumption was around $20/mo.


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