# Need help with canadian cfq prep.



## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Hi everybody, im new in the forum, im from Ontario, did my schooling 1year in Humber College and the rest in Durham College. 
I took the week preparation course, I have done 1500 questions that came with the book/cd from the course, I will be writing my CFQ on Monday but I wanted to see if anyone has some good question reviews or study material that can send to my email address, I will greatly appreciate it. I'm aiming for 90%+ to finish , I had a very smart friend who did the CFQ 2 days ago and told me that 80% of the questions we didn't even study or practice on the preparation course. I may post some of the questions he came across because we couldn't answer then and I'm afraid I'll get something similar on my test. 
Thank you very much, my email is [email protected]


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

This is the Red Seal Exam you're talking about? 

If so, get the ESAT from CSA. Apparently of those ~2000 questions is what they use to generate your exam from.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, I'm not in the position to be spending money at the moment, so any free website or if anyone knows questions that had been in the CFQ lately so I can prepare better let me know


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Yes front the redseal, I wanted to see if anyone could answer and explain this 4 questions I haveI'm writing then as my friend told me more or less it was written.) 

1. 200Hp 2-300volts 3phase squirrel cage motors hooked from a transformer 80:5 ratio and a 1.15 S. F. 

A. 3.06
B.3.89
C.49
D.69.45

2.phase to ground lights on a delta system, B is not ON, 

A. Phase A is shorted
B. Phase B is shorted
C. Phase C is shorted
D. Neutral shorted

I think answer is B

3.whats the best way to control a circuit of 40A of lights 

A. Contactor
B. Switch 
C. Double pole switch 
D. Relay

I think is D but I'm not sure what is the difference between relay and contactor, I though the contacts are already in the relay

4. Heater in a single dwelling is 16amps,what breaker do you use

A. 15A
B.20A
C. 25A
D. 30A

I think 20A because heaters are 100% up to 10kw and 75% of the rest, sec 62,but I just want to double check.


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## chevyvortech (Aug 18, 2010)

There is a csa app that has lots of questions


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Anyone?


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

The schooling is a little different here in Alberta but I am of the opinion, if you know it, you know it. All these guys fret and practice study and just memorize random answers. I did the practice test on the website 

http://www.red-seal.ca/[email protected]?tid=123&fid=20

That only has 20 but I thought the one I did had 100 and it went fine.

Know your way around the code book and how to read it, you obviously had some ambition and you'll do well.

All the weird questions you're talking about it are in there, I had some ones about weird cables types buried in appendix B and I got them eventually. Get the easier ones done and come back to the ones you really got to search for.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

paulcanada said:


> The schooling is a little different here in Alberta but I am of the opinion, if you know it, you know it. All these guys fret and practice study and just memorize random answers. I did the practice test on the website
> 
> http://www.red-seal.ca/[email protected]?tid=123&fid=20
> 
> ...


Great advice, thanks for the link!, any other info please post guys. I want 100% on this test


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

EVILTANGO said:


> Yes front the redseal, I wanted to see if anyone could answer and explain this 4 questions I haveI'm writing then as my friend told me more or less it was written.)
> 
> 1. 200Hp 2-300volts 3phase squirrel cage motors hooked from a transformer 80:5 ratio and a 1.15 S. F.
> 
> ...


When picking a breaker for a heater you do not take 100% up to 10kw etc - that is for calculating ampacities of conductors for services isn't it?


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

8 200a iii and 62 116 2a

They both sides say 100%


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

EVILTANGO said:


> 8 200a iii and 62 116 2a
> 
> They both sides say 100%


Rule 8-200 *Services and feeders for Single Dwellings*
Rule 62-116 *Demand factors for service conductors and feeders*

Based on the question, you are not doing this. I don't think the rules apply to the question.

The question was the easiest one you posted. If you have a 16 amp load are you going to use a 15 amp breaker? Nope.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

paulcanada said:


> Rule 8-200 Services and feeders for Single Dwellings
> Rule 62-116 Demand factors for service conductors and feeders
> 
> Based on the question, you are not doing this. I don't think the rules apply to the question.
> ...


I put that I think the answer is 20A, what I was getting at is that I do not have to do any kind of multiplying factor to the 16A. I put it because it looks easy but maybe I'm way off and I may be missing a step. 

You guys can give a shot to the other questions too, specially the motor one that it's driving me crazy.


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

Relays are typically used for control and not used for switching anything with a significant load. 

A contactor would handle that.

As for the motor question I looked at it quick but I didn't really get what they were after there. Are you sure thats how it was written?


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

paulcanada said:


> Relays are typically used for control and not used for switching anything with a significant load.
> 
> A contactor would handle that.
> 
> As for the motor question I looked at it quick but I didn't really get what they were after there. Are you sure thats how it was written?


Ohhhh sorry, I forgot to put, the question of is what is the overload


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

Ahh ok.

Well if you meant 2300v instead of 2-300 volts and you look at table 44 you'll see the FLA is 49 amps. 

I dont see what the transformer has to do with the question or how it would apply to the install. Or how the any of those numbers work. Maybe something is still missing?

With thermal magnetic ol's you set them right at the FLA and it does the calculation based on your choosing the applicable trip class. So I would go with 49A.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

The rule about loading heating circuits to 100% of ampacity(62-116) and then using the next largest breaker only applies if the heating load is 100% resistive heat and no fan motors are involved. Your question didn't specify if the heater was fan forced or just resistive(baseboard, floor heat, snowmelt etc). Without that information, or if you knew it was fan forced then you would have to stick to 80%.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> The rule about loading heating circuits to 100% of ampacity(62-116) and then using the next largest breaker only applies if the heating load is 100% resistive heat and no fan motors are involved. Your question didn't specify if the heater was fan forced or just convective. Without that information, or if you knew it was fan forced then you would have to stick to 80%.


So you say that the answer is 20A? Or I have to multiply 16A x1.25?


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

EVILTANGO said:


> So you say that the answer is 20A? Or I have to multiply 16A x1.25?


Well in this case multiplying 16 x 1.25 is going to give you 20A anyway.

I opened the book and looked again, I was thinking of 62-114(7), not 62-116. 62-116 is for demand factors, it has nothing to do with overcurrent protection.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Pretty sure you can't take electric space heat at 100%, unless your breaker was marked for 100% continuous. 

So it would be 16A / 80% =20A, so you can use #14AWG R90 (25A) on a 20A breaker. 

You probably already know, but dividing by 0.8 is the same as multiplying by 1.25.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> Pretty sure you can't take electric space heat at 100%, unless your breaker was marked for 100% continuous.


Oh yes you can, check out 62-114(7). It lets you load to 100% of the wire ampacity, but move up to the next breaker size so that the breaker can be loaded to 80% or less. The catch is it can only be resistive heat.


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> Pretty sure you can't take electric space heat at 100%, unless your breaker was marked for 100% continuous.
> 
> So it would be 16A / 80% =20A, so you can use #14AWG R90 (25A) on a 20A breaker.
> 
> You probably already know, but dividing by 0.8 is the same as multiplying by 1.25.


#14 still has to be protected by a 15 Amp breaker even though the 2012 table references more. I don't have the 2012 code book at home but even with the new ampacities 14,12, and 10 have to still be protected by 15,20,and 30 Amp breakers.

14-104(c)


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Oh yes you can, check out 62-114(7). It lets you load to 100% of the wire ampacity, but move up to the next breaker size so that the breaker can be loaded to 80% or less. The catch is it can only be resistive heat.


Ah yes, I see what you're saying. I think we're saying the same thing.

It must be considered a continuous load, but so long as your breaker can handle it and the conductor can handle it, you're good to go. Sounds the same.



paulcanada said:


> #14 still has to be protected by a 15 Amp breaker even though the 2012 table references more. I don't have the 2012 code book at home but even with the new ampacities 14,12, and 10 have to still be protected by 15,20,and 30 Amp breakers.
> 
> 14-104(c)


Almost, but not quite..14AWG/12AWG/10AWG must be protected by 15A/20A/30A unless there are further rules in the codebook which allow you differently.

That would be in the case of resistive heat (which we're talking about), motors, capacitors and transformers. So in general you must always use the same breakers, but in practice, we can bump up breakers as we always could. But now we have slightly different ampacities to work with in our calculations. Of course temperature ratings now come in to play, which is a big wrench in the game.

20A breaker still protects the 25A NMD90 #14. And a 15A breaker would be too small, because the ampacity is 16A.


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## The_Modifier (Oct 24, 2009)

EVILTANGO said:


> 3.whats the best way to control a circuit of 40A of lights
> 
> A. Contactor
> B. Switch
> ...


A is the answer. The difference between a contactor and a relay is the magic number 25. 
25 amps and up is a contactor. 24.99 amps and below is considered a relay.




EVILTANGO said:


> 4. Heater in a single dwelling is 16amps,what breaker do you use
> 
> A. 15A
> B.20A
> ...


Try 125% for your heater load calcs you will have a far more accurate number. similar to a motor on the test from what I can remember. 


The marine panel is 69 Amps
The size of wire for one question was 2/0


And listen to fastfokker, he's got some good info in his posts.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks guys I'm learning a lot, so for resistive heating it would be fla x 1.25 for the overcurrent and 100% for the wire? 

So 62-116 is for finding the demand for sizing panels then? 

Thanks for clearing me out the contactor/relay questions. Any other tip to keep in mind or section to pay attention let me know. 

Should I study appendix I?


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

FastFokker said:


> Ah yes, I see what you're saying. I think we're saying the same thing.
> 
> It must be considered a continuous load, but so long as your breaker can handle it and the conductor can handle it, you're good to go. Sounds the same.
> 
> ...


Well out inspector ( and the instructors for our code update course) are holding us to the 14/20/30 thing without any get arounds....can you give me an example of how this comes into play for you?


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

I see what your saying with the resistive heat example...I havent had to wire in small loads for awhile so I just kinda remembered that from their course and moved on.

The temperature thing is a pain though for sure.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

The CEC is a mess to clearly understand, but once you see it, I think it makes sense...



> *14-104(2) Except as provided for by Subrule (1)(c)*, the rating of overcurrent protection shall not exceed
> (a) 15 A for No. 14 AWG copper conductors;
> (b) 20 A for No. 12 AWG copper conductors;
> (c) 30 A for No. 10 AWG copper conductors; and
> (d) 15 A for No. 12 AWG aluminum conductors.



It's also missing an _(e) 25A for No.10 AWG aluminum conductors_. But anyway, the key wording is in bold... so lets check subrule (1)(c):



> 14-104(1) The rating or setting of overcurrent devices shall not exceed the allowable ampacity of the conductors that they protect, except:
> (c) *as provided for by other Rules of this Code.*


So it's saying, unless you can find somewhere in this codebook that specifically allows you to use a larger over current for those wire sizes, you must use the listed over currents. 

Instances that would allow it could be found in Section 26 (Transformers and Capacitors), Section 28 (Motors) and Section 62 (Fixed Electric Space Heat)... there's probably more, but those come to my mind.

So in our case, we go to Section 62, which tells us rules for overcurrent protection.



> 62-114 Overcurrent protection and grouping (see Appendix B)
> 
> (6)Where a service, feeder, or branch circuit is used solely for the supply of energy to heating equipment, the load, as determined using Rule 62-116, shall not exceed
> (a) 100% of the rating or setting of the overcurrent devices protecting the service conductors, feeder
> ...


#14AWG is good for 25A (90c), and the load is 16A, we could use 100% for the O/C, but that's 16A, which isn't a standard size.. the next size is 20A. Or we could use 80% (x 1.25), which is 20A, which is the standard size. 

Seems in either case it would 20A. 

This post went way longer than I thought it would.. hopefully I didn't mess up any of that. But the point is 14-104 only applies where no other rule trumps it.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

It's purely academic.. if your inspector doesn't like it, who cares what the code says? 

Just pull #12. lol


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

Well it is a little goofy but I don't really have a problem with it. 

I agree with your reading of it. Seems pretty straight forward. I will bring it up next week and see where it gets me.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Just so I'm clear, if the question don't specify anything about breaker working at 100 or 80,what do I assume for the CFQ


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

The IP Exam should spell out what you're using in detail. 

The class I took had this list of assumptions, I'm not sure if it's passed on from the exam, or just used for our class questions:

Conduit is rigid steel
Conductors are R90XLPE, 600V, no jacket
Overcurrent protection is standard code fuses (non-time delay)
Tap conductors are assumed less than 3m
Motors are rated for continuous duty
Equipment max temperature rating is 90C

So I would say on the exam, they'll either tell you it's one or the other.. or the answer choice will work for both, as is the case with your 16A baseboard heater.


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## habsfan79 (Apr 6, 2012)

FastFokker said:


> The CEC is a mess to clearly understand, but once you see it, I think it makes sense...
> 
> It's also missing an (e) 25A for No.10 AWG aluminum conductors. But anyway, the key wording is in bold... so lets check subrule (1)(c):
> 
> ...



Don't forget about 4-006 (1), which states that you have to use the lowest temperature rating connected to the conductor in question to determine ampacity. For breakers, most are rated at 75degC so you'd have to use that column in Table 2 which means #14AWG would be good for 20A. Still ok in this situation, but just something else to keep in mind.


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

No, it's assume 90°C, unless told otherwise.



> 4-006 Temperature limitations (see Appendix B)
> 
> (2) Where equipment is not marked with a maximum conductor termination temperature, 90 °C shall be used by default.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Well I did the exam yesterday and all the preparation and all those many hours I spent reviewing definitely helped. I am waiting for the results but I'm certain that I passed. I found it to be fair, finished in 3:15 hours. I had 4 high voltage questions 4 emergency lighting 2voltage drop, 10communication questions, about 15motor questions, 2 general safety questions, 3 electrical safety questions, 10 heating (thermostat, high limit, condenser, fan switch), no questions from sec 62, 1 temp wiring, 2capacitor questions ,1fence question, 4 transformer questions, 4 fire alarm question, 3 direct buried, 1 aluminum splicing, 1enclosure type, 3 service overhead, 3 on what wire or conduit its more suitable for x instalation, 1 on full bridge rectifier (what happens to the motor when 1 diode goes), 1infrared motion detector schematic drawing, tables 2-5a-5c-6-9-10-12-16-20-23-29-34-40-44-56-65-D4
I think I'm above 80 for sure but I know of got one question wrong on general safety, what fire extinguisher u use on gas combustible area, I put D, but it was B, sucks because I was 100%that they were going to ask about electrical fire, so I just knew C. I hope this thread helps somebody who is going to write in a near future. At the ministry they told me that by January it won't be 100 questions but 150 and they'll be easier


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## paulcanada (Feb 6, 2009)

What did you memorize every question? That's a pretty good run down.


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## EVILTANGO (Dec 6, 2012)

Thanks, I just took my time on each question to make sure I don't rush it and it kind of stayed on my mind


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