# Tansition from Flex to EMT inside wall?



## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Is it permissible to transition from Flex to EMT inside a wall or ceiling where this connection will be stuccoed over and inaccessible? 

I'm dropping conduit from an enclosed overhang into an outdoor wall.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I believe it is legal...but this doesn't have any proof behind it. Remember to pull a ground.


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## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

T & B makes a flex to EMT connector for that.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

*300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.​*A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
wiring methods for which they are designed and listed.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC
cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed
at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction
point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise​permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).



*(F) Fitting.​*​​​​A fitting identified for the use shall be permitted
in lieu of a box or conduit body where conductors are
not spliced or terminated within the fitting. The fitting shall​
be accessible after installation.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> *300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings —Where Required.​*
> ​​A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch
> point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
> Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific
> ...




Are you trying to stir the pot? 

Pete
​


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Pete m. said:


> Are you trying to stir the pot?
> 
> Pete
> 
> [/left]


 
Have you ever known me to do that?


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Have you ever known me to do that?


Nope, never....:no::laughing:

Pete


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Fitting: An accessory such as a locknut, bushing, or other part of a wiring system that is intended primarily to perform a mechanical rather than an electrical function.

Are we saying that an EMT coupling is not a fitting?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

k_buz said:


> Fitting: An accessory such as a locknut, bushing, or other part of a wiring system that is intended primarily to perform a mechanical rather than an electrical function.
> 
> Are we saying that an EMT coupling is not a fitting?


 
Read that article closely. An EMT coupling is not being used "in lieu of a box" for a transition.


* 
(F) Fitting.​*A fitting identified for the use shall be permitted
"in lieu of a box" or conduit body where conductors are
not spliced or terminated within the fitting. The fitting shall​
be accessible after installation.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Read that article closely. An EMT coupling is not being used "in lieu of a box" for a transition.
> 
> 
> (F) Fitting.
> ...


Where does it say anything about a transition?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Read that article closely. An EMT coupling is not being used "in lieu of a box" for a transition.
> 
> 
> *
> ...


But it doesn't include "for a transition". It just says in lieu of a box. 

Let me pose this question, if I interpret this the way you are, wouldn't we be saying that you couldn't use a PVC female adapter to switch to EMT unless it was accessible?


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

k_buz said:


> But it doesn't include "for a transition". It just says in lieu of a box.
> 
> Let me pose this question, if I interpret this the way you are, wouldn't we be saying that you couldn't use a PVC female adapter to switch to EMT unless it was accessible?


What goes into the PVC female adapter?

An EMT connector, which would ordinarily go into a box.

To answer your question, the female adopter would be in lieu of
a box, and therefore you couldn't use a female adapter to make
the transition.

Proper fittings, e.g. the T&B EMT-flex cited above, and others, could
be used and would not have to be accessible. So to answer the OP,
it's possible if you use the right fitting(s).

(BTW, as pathetic as it sounds, the way I remember this is from
my plumber, who would never use a plastic female fitting around
a metal male fitting, because the outside plastic will crack if overtightened, 
and leak. He will, however, use a plastic male inside a metal female
and all is hunky dorey. Seems to work with conduit transition fittings
too.)


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

*(F) Fitting??*



mcclary's electrical said:


> *(F) Fitting.​*A fitting identified for the use shall be permitted
> in lieu of a box or conduit body where conductors are
> not spliced or terminated within the fitting. The fitting shall​
> be accessible after installation.



Thanks all.
My question is answered and I can cover the transition with stucco. 
The transition will be a flex connector, rigid coupler and emt connector.

So what would one of these "(F) Fittings" look like?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

After reading the arguments, I'm not sure you can use those if its going to be inaccessible. The rigid threaded coupling is working "in lieu of a box" and therefore would need to be accessible. You would be better off using a true EMT to flex connector...and I don't even think that is legal anymore.


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## B W E (May 1, 2011)

swimmer said:


> Thanks all.
> My question is answered and I can cover the transition with stucco.
> The transition will be a flex connector, rigid coupler and emt connector.
> 
> So what would one of these "(F) Fittings" look like?


Why don't you use a flex to emt fitting? At least those ate made and listed for that purpose, whereas your idea is a 110 violation.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

rexowner said:


> What goes into the PVC female adapter?
> 
> An EMT connector, which would ordinarily go into a box.
> 
> ...



So here we go again.
My transition is: 
Flex --> Flex Connector --> Rigid Coupling --> EMT Connector --> EMT. 
So you are saying that I'm using the Rigid Coupling in lieu of a box and that this transition would have to be accessible and that I can only cover it up if I use an approved fitting rather than the transition I described above.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Yes in your specific example I would say it would have to be exposed.

I can even see (now) how a flex to EMT listed fitting is being used in lieu of a box so that wouldn't be legal either.

It pains me to say that because I've use both those methods countless times in remodel jobs and never been called on it by an inspector.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

k_buz said:


> It pains me to say that because I've use both those methods countless times in remodel jobs and never been called on it by an inspector.



Don't feel bad.
I asked an inspector yesterday and he said the connector / coupler arrangement would be OK.

But now I've learned 2 things:
1. There is an adapter made specially for this purpose.
2. I understand the " in lieu of" language.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

k_buz said:


> I can even see (now) how a flex to EMT listed fitting is being used in lieu of a box so that wouldn't be legal either.


I think the rigid coupling, in my arrangement, is being used in lieu of a box because both a flex (box) connector and an EMT (box) connector are threaded into it.

The special Flex to EMT adapter is not being used in lieu of a box. EMT and Flex can connect to other things besides boxes.

See, I told you I learned something.


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## swimmer (Mar 19, 2011)

Don't know how many times I've seen these things on the shelf and wondered what you'd use it for.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Geez just bury the damn thing.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

> The special Flex to EMT adapter is not being used in lieu of a box. EMT and Flex can connect to other things besides boxes.


If not by a listed EMT to flex connector/coupling, how else would you switch from EMT to flex?


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

swimmer said:


> Thanks all.
> My question is answered and I can cover the transition with stucco.
> The transition will be a flex connector, rigid coupler and emt connector.
> 
> So what would one of these "(F) Fittings" look like?


A coupling for rigid metal conduit is not listed for any other use than coupling together two pieces of RMC. UL has publicly stated this. This is almost universally ignored.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Tom45acp said:


> A coupling for rigid metal conduit is not listed for any other use than coupling together two pieces of RMC. UL has publicly stated this. This is almost universally ignored.


 
Now you've just thrown a wrench in his plan !:laughing:


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

That would only work if that wrench was approved to be thrown into his plan :whistling2:


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## acebradley (Mar 1, 2012)

I think some are missing the point in 300.15 that refers to each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, or *pull point*. If you are pulling straight through the fitting, then in my opinion it is legal for the fitting not to be accessible.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This may be an issue if it is being fished but it seems like you have open walls so you can support it. Otherwise I don't see an article that would be an issue as long as the entire run has less than 360° of bends.


> 358.30 Securing and Supporting.
> EMT shall be installed as a complete system in accordance with 300.18 and shall be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance with 358.30(A) and (B) or permitted to be unsupported in accordance with 358.30(C).
> (A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.
> Exception No. 1: Fastening of unbroken lengths shall be permitted to be increased to a distance of 1.5 m (5 ft) where structural members do not readily permit fastening within 900 mm (3 ft).
> *Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings or prefinished wall panels where such securing is impracticable, unbroken lengths (without coupling) of EMT shall be permitted to be fished.*


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

acebradley said:


> I think some are missing the point in 300.15 that refers to each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, or *pull point*. If you are pulling straight through the fitting, then in my opinion it is legal for the fitting not to be accessible.


 
Ok, so the fitting's not a pull point. It's still a fitting. It's still being used in lieu of box. Not being a pull point doesn't change the fact that it's still a fitting being used in lieu of a box.


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

k_buz said:


> That would only work if that wrench was approved to be thrown into his plan :whistling2:











This wrench, while approved, was manufactured and installed prior to UL's current listing requirements.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

I think y'all are reading way too much into this. As long as it's a complete conduit system with everything tight and doesn't pose a restriction for wire pulling, I'd pass it on inspection. The way some of y'all are reading this you could consider ANY fitting as being used "in lieu" of a box and every coupling in a conduit run would have to remain accessible.

However, yesterday I turned down the rough-in for two whole buildings at an outlet mall going in because the EC had used a flex 90 inside the wall to turn out for a wall pack. That fitting is not designed to pull wire around and would have been buried behind the drywall. 

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> I think y'all are reading way too much into this. As long as it's a complete conduit system with everything tight and doesn't pose a restriction for wire pulling, I'd pass it on inspection. The way some of y'all are reading this you could consider ANY fitting as being used "in lieu" of a box and every coupling in a conduit run would have to remain accessible.
> 
> However, yesterday I turned down the rough-in for two whole buildings at an outlet mall going in because the EC had used a flex 90 inside the wall to turn out for a wall pack. That fitting is not designed to pull wire around and would have been buried behind the drywall.
> 
> Mark


No, a coupling is not being used in lieu of a box. The transition fitting is. There is no other legal way to make the transition without a box, or either a fitting designed for the purpose. That fitting, if used, shall remain accessible. " any fitting", as you put it, is not being used in lieu off a box. A transition fitting, if used, is doing exactly that


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, a coupling is not being used in lieu of a box. The transition fitting is. There is no other legal way to make the transition without a box, or either a fitting designed for the purpose. That fitting, if used, shall remain accessible. " any fitting", as you put it, is not being used in lieu off a box. A transition fitting, if used, is doing exactly that


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, mate.

Mark


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

wesleydnunder said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, mate.
> 
> Mark


Don't quit, explain how a coupling is being used in lieu of a box? Oh, that's right. It's not.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Forget the 'in lieu of a box' ... the focus should be on 'termination.' Is a transition a termination?

IMO, if you can fish it, it need not be accessible.


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## wesleydnunder (Mar 19, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Don't quit, explain how a coupling is being used in lieu of a box? Oh, that's right. It's not.


I wasn't saying that a coupling is being used in lieu of a box... I was using your line of reasoning to pose the question. Who determines if a fitting is installed in lieu of a box? 

In an earlier post, the pvc to emt transition was mentioned. Many ECs will run pvc under the slab to a wall in the building. The transition from pvc to emt via pvc FA and emt connector is used. As long as this is a complete raceway, doesn't damage the wire when pulled and, as was mentioned, is fishable I'd pass it every time. In fact I have passed such installations and have installed them myself. 

So, is this transition from pvc to emt one that needed a box? Which fitting used was the one used in lieu of said box?

Mark


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

wesleydnunder said:


> I wasn't saying that a coupling is being used in lieu of a box... I was using your line of reasoning to pose the question. Who determines if a fitting is installed in lieu of a box?
> 
> In an earlier post, the pvc to emt transition was mentioned. Many ECs will run pvc under the slab to a wall in the building. The transition from pvc to emt via pvc FA and emt connector is used. As long as this is a complete raceway, doesn't damage the wire when pulled and, as was mentioned, is fishable I'd pass it every time. In fact I have passed such installations and have installed them myself.
> 
> ...


I agree with you too. What would be the purpose of having access to a transition fitting? To look at it? There is need to get to an LB, a flex 90, etc, these items are Pull points that you can actually open and see the wires, a flex to emt fitting is sealed and there is zero need to have access to it, no adjustments, inspection or maintenance required once installed. The intent of the code is clear, if you need to service it or repull it, it needs access. Some of you guys are trying to read something into the code that is not there.:laughing: Why?


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

If you really want to get a surprize go to the Arlington web sight and look up the 2400, 2410, 2411 And the best is the "LISTED" combination of the 2400 fitting to a SG3838 or the 2400+846. 
I think Arlinton makes fantastic products and if you don't think they can be covered up, contact Arlington directly.


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## acrwc10 (Jan 28, 2007)

I cant seem to get the link to work.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't even see the link.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

swimmer said:


> I think the rigid coupling, in my arrangement, is being used in lieu of a box because both a flex (box) connector and an EMT (box) connector are threaded into it.
> 
> The special Flex to EMT adapter is not being used in lieu of a box. EMT and Flex can connect to other things besides boxes.
> 
> See, I told you I learned something.


I'd say you used the Emt connector-Rigid coupling-Flex connector arrangement in lieu of the Emt to Flex adaptor.:yes::yes:


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Tom45acp;[URL="tel:684431" said:


> 684431[/URL]]A coupling for rigid metal conduit is not listed for any other use than coupling together two pieces of RMC. UL has publicly stated this. This is almost universally ignored.


Does that mean you can't screw a sealtite connector into a rigid coupling?


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

This thread is Cletis


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## Tom45acp (Sep 6, 2011)

sparky970 said:


> Does that mean you can't screw a sealtite connector into a rigid coupling?


Yes, that is what I mean. :yes::thumbsup:

Doesn't mean it isn't done hundreds of times a day, and it also doesn't mean that if I can't get the correct adapter that I wouldn't do it myself. I can just imagine how easy it would be to get a 3" sealtite to RMC connector. I'm sure every supply house has at least 6 of themon the shelf.


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## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

So is there access panel which would make it acessible.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

swimmer said:


> Is it permissible to transition from Flex to EMT inside a wall or ceiling where this connection will be stuccoed over and inaccessible?
> 
> I'm dropping conduit from an enclosed overhang into an outdoor wall.


I dont know if its legal or not - but I have done it a few dozen times and it has not failed an inspection. The buildings have not burned down.....yet.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

swimmer said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> The transition will be a flex connector, rigid coupler and emt connector.


That is normally how I do it.


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## tkb (Jan 21, 2009)

I wouldn't hesitate to use a straight transition from EMT or RMC to flex and conceal it. 
A 90 flex fitting would be a problem though. 

To say that you cannot use a RMC coupling to connect between EMT or RMC and a LT connector is so Joe Tedesco.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

tkb said:


> To say that you cannot use a RMC coupling to connect between EMT or RMC and a LT connector is so Joe Tedesco.


 
I recall his argument.

I recall him being in the minority.


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