# Not Sure If I Like...Subpanel



## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

Cleaned it up real nice. Looks worth it to me. That pipe on the left is bugging me tho.

Is it rigid? What's it go to? and could you not straighten it out?

Good job.:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Why, why, why????


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I would have delayed the job until I get my hands on a 42 space.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Well, it looks a butt load better.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

svh19044 said:


> (supply house was actually out of a normal 40/40)


No Home Depot in PA?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nice clean up there.....

~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

So, you removed a panel that was full including tandems and replaced it with a new panel which you filled up with tandems.

:blink:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

nice looking work, but, as others said, somewhat pointless. 20 min worth of planning would've fixed that.


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## john120/240 (May 28, 2010)

What was the home inspectors reason for your work ? What code 

violations were corrected ? Yes your work does look better. These home

inspectors can nit pick the small stuff and ignore the obvious violations/


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

I like the Siemens panel, mostly Siemens breakers, and the BR gfi breaker.
But judging by your before pic it looks way better.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Looks decent to me.

Others already mentioned using tandems in a brand new panel, so I'll let that one be.

I also don't like the stupid slack bends in the service conductor/feeder. Honestly, when's the last time you ever needed this slack on a service call?

Other than that, looks about as good as I'd ever care to do.

An old inspector in my area would often say, "Yup, looks like an electrician was here". I think what he really means to say is that you can only do so much sometimes.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Looks good from where Im standing. That mess sure is alot cleaner now. Good work!


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> So, you removed a panel that was full including tandems and replaced it with a new panel which you filled up with tandems.
> 
> :blink:


That's exactly my problem with it. It makes no sense, but that's what the inspector wanted. He either suggested to fill a second subpanel, or make one complete filled panel. Pretty stupid.

The old panel was a 30 circuit max panel, so no good with tandems. The new panel filled up with tandems as applicable by manufacturer standards.

It kind of shows how pointless some of the NEC is. :thumbup:



mcclary's electrical said:


> I would have delayed the job until I get my hands on a 42 space.


But for what reason? To gain 2 more spots in the panel? Does that not seem kind of stupid for a house that is about to be sold, to delay closing in order to gain the 2 more circuits?



Sparky J said:


> I like the Siemens panel, mostly Siemens breakers, and the BR gfi breaker.
> But judging by your before pic it looks way better.


In all fairness, the panel still isn't mapped and new GFCI breakers were also part of the change out. There will be new breakers as well as a fully (or as full as possible) mapped sub.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

john120/240 said:


> What was the home inspectors reason for your work ? What code
> 
> violations were corrected ? Yes your work does look better. These home
> 
> inspectors can nit pick the small stuff and ignore the obvious violations/


The violation was max circuits in the panel and not tandem rated, which IMO, should have been grandfathered in do to how long it had to have been there. "Non-workmanship" was also cited.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

BBQ said:


> No Home Depot in PA?


No home depot in the area (4 within 5 miles) that had either non-opened 40/40 panels or had any in stock, and my supply house didn't either, but either way, it hardly makes a difference. The tandems do the same damn thing, and the tandem rated 30/40 does the same damn thing as the old non-tandem rated panel. :laughing: It's stupid, but that was enough to hold up the sale of the home.



MDShunk said:


> Looks decent to me.
> 
> Others already mentioned using tandems in a brand new panel, so I'll let that one be.
> 
> ...


I do panel changes every now and then where the extra inch or two REALLY comes in handy, so I pass that on to the future generations. I would say that over the past 10 years, I wish that extra inch was there on average about 5 times a year. Usually it's just a matter of changing the SEU/R, but when you don't have to, it's nice. That was about 30' straight across in the basement, so it wouldn't have been a big deal, but they even used copper so I was glad to have it  .


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

> But for what reason? To gain 2 more spots in the panel?


 
No, so I don't use all those sucky tandem breakers.


> Does that not seem kind of stupid for a house that is about to be sold, to delay closing in order to gain the 2 more circuits?


No, waiting until the morning of the job to pick up material is stupid.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, waiting until the morning of the job to pick up material is stupid.


I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it stupid, but I might say that not stocking a common panel like a 40/40 yourself is, well... not smart.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, so I don't use all those sucky tandem breakers.
> 
> No, waiting until the morning of the job to pick up material is stupid.


It's material that you expect to be in stock. 

What is your problem with tandems? I really would have preferred the 40/40 just....because, but I don't really know a good reason why. Really, I would have, but I'd be damned if I could give you a solid reason with reasoning. 



MDShunk said:


> I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it stupid, but I might say that not stocking a common panel like a 40/40 yourself is, well... not smart.



Tell me the last time that you couldn't get a 40/40 in stock....I don't remember ever having that issue.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

svh19044 said:


> Tell me the last time that you couldn't get a 40/40 in stock....I don't remember ever having that issue.


I have no idea. Always kept them in stock. Hate to run for material. Try to keep that to a bare minimum. I don't have enough day in my day. Time spent rounding up material is wasted time.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I have no idea. Always kept them in stock. Hate to run for material. Try to keep that to a bare minimum. I don't have enough day in my day. Time spent rounding up material is wasted time.



How many panels does your company do each week? Or per day? It's a panel that has never been an issue, and other than the 200amp main debacle from seimens about a year ago, I don't recall any scenario that would relate.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Looks good nice job.


Remember some times you go ahead and do a job and in the end wonder WTF was i thinking..

So don't sweat it...:laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

svh19044 said:


> How many panels does your company do each week? Or per day? It's a panel that has never been an issue, and other than the 200amp main debacle from seimens about a year ago, I don't recall any scenario that would relate.


I see that you're taking this way more personal than I intended, so I'll back up.

Stock common items. That's all I'm saying. Running to the supply house all the time is a royal waste of time. (unless you like bad coffee).


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I see that you're taking this way more personal than I intended, so I'll back up.
> 
> Stock common items. That's all I'm saying. Running to the supply house all the time is a royal waste of time. (unless you like bad coffee).


It's not personal at all? It was a simple question about how many common stock panels you have in your inventory. We choose not to stock a panel that is normally available.....everywhere. We do a whole bunch of these panels every week, and it was odd that nobody had a 40/40, but again, what kind of difference does it make anyway? What is your sound reasoning in this scenario....And again, keep in mind my title that this is partially what I don't like about the "new" panel. It's current code, but it's pretty stupid. The 40/40 would be just as filled as the 30/40.



HARRY304E said:


> Looks good nice job.
> 
> 
> Remember some times you go ahead and do a job and in the end wonder WTF was i thinking..
> ...


In this case, I guess it didn't matter. I could have charged a lot more, cleaned up the sub, added another sub off it, and possibly not get the job, or I could do as the inspector said.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I see that you're taking this way more personal than I intended, so I'll back up.
> 
> Stock common items. That's all I'm saying. Running to the supply house all the time is a royal waste of time. (unless you like bad coffee).


Never drink the coffee or eat the hot dogs at the supply house...:laughing:


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

:whistling2:


HARRY304E said:


> Never drink the coffee or eat the hot dogs at the supply house...:laughing:


Hot dogs and popcorn are good, the coffee...that's a different story. :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

svh19044 said:


> In this case, I guess it didn't matter. I could have charged a lot more, cleaned up the sub, added another sub off it, and possibly not get the job, or I could do as the inspector said.


Well the job is done.

The good new is we will all get up tomorrow and find a new way to make mistakes.

The key is ,Is to catch them before we make them,,Sometimes it does not always work out,I have made plenty..:laughing:


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Well the job is done.
> 
> The good new is we will all get up tomorrow and find a new way to make mistakes.
> 
> The key is ,Is to catch them before we make them,,Sometimes it does not always work out,I have made plenty..:laughing:


...but the jobs not done. :laughing:

What else can I do other than not making pretty bends in the feed and not using a 40/40 instead of a 30/40 (same result)....

A 40/40 SUB off of this sub would be the best option IMO, but again, price...as usual, comes in to play. That's what I would have done if I could, charge a couple hundred more (and more than likely still get the job) and add a sub off the sub, as well as clean up the pictured old sub. I'd say, looking back, that was my biggest mistake and something we at the company will have to keep in mind (this wasn't my estimate either).


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

svh19044 said:


> :whistling2:
> 
> Hot dogs and popcorn are good, the coffee...that's a different story. :laughing:


One of the counter guys says yesterdays coffee fresh today..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

svh19044 said:


> ...but the jobs not done. :laughing:




Oh!

I forgot that part of your post...:blink::laughing:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dang, I thought my supply house was the only place with worse coffee than a truck stop. Believe me, I can make a STRONG pot of coffee, but it still doesn't taste like their toilet water!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> Dang, I thought my supply house was the only place with worse coffee than a truck stop. Believe me, I can make a STRONG pot of coffee, but it still doesn't taste like their toilet water!


I would not put it past the counter guys to make the coffee from toilet water!.

Ever wonder why they are always drinking coffee from the doughnut shop?:laughing:


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## 3xdad (Jan 25, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Remember some times you go ahead and do a job and in the end wonder WTF was i thinking..


:laughing:

That'd make a good sig line right there.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I would not put it past the counter guys to make the coffee from toilet water!.
> 
> Ever wonder why they are always drinking coffee from the doughnut shop?:laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing::001_huh:

You might be onto something!


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## sarness (Sep 14, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> One of the counter guys says yesterdays coffee fresh today..


They guy that ran the parts department where I worked would drink Friday's coffee on Monday that sat on the burner all weekend.


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## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

I say you did a good job, you took a bucket of hair and cleaned it up where it wont scare a home owner.


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

svh19044 

That is a fine looking piece of work!

Is there any complaint from the AHJ about the white wires on the DP breakers?

It would be a real pain to mark them red on both ends.

EJPHI


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

EJPHI said:


> svh19044
> 
> That is a fine looking piece of work!
> 
> ...


I noticed that too. The ungrounded conductors must be identified as ungrounded conductors in this application. 



> *310.12 Conductor Identification.*
> 
> (C) Ungrounded Conductors. Conductors that are intended
> for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as a
> ...


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

210.5 (C)

(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring
system has branch circuits supplied from more than one
nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a
branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system
at all termination, connection, and splice points. The
means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate
color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved
means. The method utilized for conductors originating
within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branchcircuit
distribution equipment shall be documented in a
manner that is readily available or shall be permanently
posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branchcircuit
distribution equipment.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

215.12 Identification for Feeders.

(A) Grounded Conductor. The grounded conductor of a
feeder shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.
(B) Equipment Grounding Conductor. The equipment
grounding conductor shall be identified in accordance with
250.119.
(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring
system has feeders supplied from more than one nominal
voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a feeder
shall be identified by phase or line and system at all termination,
connection, and splice points. The means of identification
shall be permitted to be by separate color coding,
marking tape, tagging, or other approved means. The
method utilized for conductors originating within each
feeder panelboard or similar feeder distribution equipment
shall be documented in a manner that is readily available or
shall be permanently posted at each feeder panelboard or
similar feeder distribution equipment.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

It look nice but only quirk it kinda bother me real quick is did you have extra time to remarked the ungrounded white conductor ??? I will done that when before I land them in the breakers.

( It is the same way I done in France when useing the twin et earth aka NM cable ) 

Merci,
Marc


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*?*

Yeah. I would never do that. If one of my guys did that I would make them set a 20 space load center right next to it and send some circuits over there to give them a bit of future use space. I always put in 42 space for main panel resi


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> It look nice but only quirk it kinda bother me real quick is did you have extra time to remarked the ungrounded white conductor ??? I will done that when before I land them in the breakers.
> 
> ( It is the same way I done in France when useing the twin et earth aka NM cable )
> 
> ...


black electrical tape is at the bottom of the panel, they were marked, just not for the picture.



Cletis said:


> Yeah. I would never do that. If one of my guys did that I would make them set a 20 space load center right next to it and send some circuits over there to give them a bit of future use space. I always put in 42 space for main panel resi


I believe this was 1 of 5 sub panels in the house. The home inspector got what he wanted, and either of his suggestions didn't really make sense, but it's what he wanted and what he got. The house sold and everyone went home happy. At least now there is actually room to add a dp breaker in the panel for a sub off that sub.


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## magneticpersona (Apr 28, 2012)

I would recommend taping the white hot conductors black, to show they are indeed feeding something. When I was an apprentice,I ended up blowing up half the appliances in someone's home because I mixed one neutral with a hot.


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## paulgarett (May 8, 2012)

*Had to show the class*

Had to show my electrical 101 class these pictures on the projector.
Classic. Thanks for sharing. Got a lot of laughs.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

paulgarett said:


> Had to show my electrical 101 class these pictures on the projector.
> Classic. Thanks for sharing. Got a lot of laughs.


 
I'm sure the op is glad to hear that he became the laughing stock of a bunch of students!


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Always like to plan on having materials before the day of the job comes up. I want to be on the job early and get it done. Large jobs material can be delivered. Small jobs material can be picked up a few days before the day of the job.


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## Nukie Poo (Sep 3, 2012)

BBQ said:


> No Home Depot in PA?


Our local HD doesnt sell 40/40s


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Nukie Poo said:


> Our local HD doesnt sell 40/40s


:001_huh:

I have yet to see an HD that doesn't sell them, and I've been in a lot, believe me.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Cletis said:


> Yeah. I would never do that. If one of my guys did that I would make them set a 20 space load center right next to it and send some circuits over there to give them a bit of future use space. I always put in 42 space for main panel resi


 
always? We just did two service upgrades where one had 7 branch circuits and the other had 5. 30/40's are perfectly fine in those situations.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

paulgarett said:


> Had to show my electrical 101 class these pictures on the projector.
> Classic. Thanks for sharing. Got a lot of laughs.


You can't win them all. :laughing: in the end it passed inspection, inspector got what he wanted, and it was left......slightly better than before.

Blame inspectors and code changes. There was nothing that was terribly unsafe before, just messy.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Peter D said:


> :001_huh:
> 
> I have yet to see an HD that doesn't sell them, and I've been in a lot, believe me.


Believe him, Pete is to Home Depot as Wilt Chamberlain was to women.:jester:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MDShunk said:


> I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it stupid, but I might say that not stocking a common panel like a 40/40 yourself is, well... not smart.


Unless you live out in the bush somewhere, why would you bother stocking a panel like this yourself? It's a common "A" item for every supplier and the price is the same for one as it is for fifty. This was a glitch. My favorite supplier ran out of three way switches last week. Somebody actually came in and cleaned him out just before I got there. Does that mean I should maintain my own warehouse just in case the supplier runs out of something?

I believe in lean and mean. In a normal day I would drive past at least five places selling a panel like this. The supplier maintains a warehouse. I don't.

Duplicating your supplier's inventory yourself is...well...not smart.


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