# Advice needed on apartment grounding/bonding



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RomexJockey said:


> I went to take a look at a 4-unit apartment building's service today after a home inspector reported that the "panels aren't grounded".
> 
> So what we have in the basement of this place is power from the overhead service drop into a 400 amp disconnect, a gutter run out of the side of that disconnect (rigid nipple) and out of that gutter we have 5 meter bases set on top (PVC nipples on metal hubs).
> 
> ...


 

Depending on when this was built, it may be perfectly legal. It sounds like you need two ground rods though. And you would take that wire back to the 400 amp service disconnect. There should be no GEC's in the apartment panels.


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## RomexJockey (Apr 8, 2008)

The place was built in the late 50's or so. And I should add that I didn't see any bond screws or bonding jumpers in the panels.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

The gec's are not necessary in the apartments but you will need supplemental roads. I see a bit of a problem when the disconnect is installed ahead of the meters. Technically everything past that disconnect should be feeders and not service equipment so a egc is needed. Unfortunately the meters installed probably have the neutrals bonded to the can so there is not much you can do about it. From the meters to the house disconnects- next to the meters I presume- you need 3 wires in keeping with the other situation I mentioned. You will need 4 wires to the apartments and those neutrals so be isolated from the egc.


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## RomexJockey (Apr 8, 2008)

There are no individual disconnects for the house and apartment panels...just a nipple out of the top of the meter and then a main breaker in each panel.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RomexJockey said:


> There are no individual disconnects for the house and apartment panels...just a nipple out of the top of the meter and then a main breaker in each panel.


 
There is no requirement to have a disconnect for each one.


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## RomexJockey (Apr 8, 2008)

I didn't think there was a requirement for discos for each panel, I was replying to Dennis' "From the meters to the house disconnects- next to the meters I presume- "

I'm kicking myself for not taking a pic of the whole setup. It's not complicated but my description probably doesn't paint a clear picture.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RomexJockey said:


> I didn't think there was a requirement for discos for each panel, I was replying to Dennis' "From the meters to the house disconnects- next to the meters I presume- "
> 
> I'm kicking myself for not taking a pic of the whole setup. It's not complicated but my description probably doesn't paint a clear picture.


 
I just looked through some old NEC's and the requirement for the fourth conductor goes back into the 50's so this thing was never legal. I would drive two ground rods and bond them to the 400 amp service disconnect, (maybe) run a bond wire to the meter depending on the power company, then run four wire feeders to all apartments, with grounded conductors and grounding conductors separated, and grounding conductors bonded to the can.


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## RomexJockey (Apr 8, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I just looked through some old NEC's and the requirement for the fourth conductor goes back into the 50's so this thing was never legal. I would drive two ground rods and bond them to the 400 amp service disconnect, (maybe) run a bond wire to the meter depending on the power company, then run four wire feeders to all apartments, with grounded conductors and grounding conductors separated, and grounding conductors bonded to the can.


That sounds right. Because if the main disconnect has the GEC and neutral joined, then that means that all the panels are subs and therefore should have separated grounds and neutrals. But they don't. They just have a neutral run out of the main disco (through the gutter where they're split somehow, I can't get into it with the tamper-proof thingies on there)

And if the main disconnect isn't the main panel and all the apartment panels are mains on their own, then they should still have a GEC.

I can't get my head around the fact that the panels have no GEC, no electrical continuity back to the main disco, and no bond screws or jumpers from the neutral bar to the panel itself.

So basically it's a combination neutral and ground from the main disco to each meter base, and also a combination neutral and ground in each panel. That just can't be legal, can it?


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Can you use two rods to ground the main disconnect and run four wire feed to all the panels with the ground just passing through the meter base and separate the neutral and grounds? Seems its either that or you have to drive two rods and run a ground from each panel to both rods.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> So basically it's a combination neutral and ground from the main disco to each meter base, and also a combination neutral and ground in each panel. That just can't be legal, can it?


well, like McClary has states, it was at _one_ time.....

So perhaps you have an oldie service hailing back to those days, with a circa 2000 panel upgrade?

Seems inspector #1 didn't think the GEC's were important, and now inspector #2 does ....

But consider what s/he is asking ....GEC, or EGC, there's a dif, and that dif may be in isolating all those noodles in those upgraded panels (hopefully the last sparky ade this easy via just bonding screw removal) , or simply bonding the plate (i forget which code article dictates the ampacity of cu & al per sq in here) to the available and /or introduced electrodes

~CS~


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