# Green wire nut code



## FlyingSparks

There isn't one?


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## Magnettica

Im thinking that too but something tells me somebody's gonna chime in and say otherwise.


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## FlyingSparks

I have always bonded network racks using the correct guage wire nut, I always thought green was a preference. They usually have the hole to run a egc through the nut.


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## thegoldenboy

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I've heard it a few times. If you need to recognize the ground by the color wire nuts, you might not be an electrician...

I'm going to submit a proposal for the 2017 NEC. Wire nuts must match the color of the insulation of the conductor they're being used on. Green for green/bare. 

Wirenut manufacturers are going to love this.


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## FlyingSparks

thegoldenboy said:


> That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I've heard it a few times. If you need to recognize the ground by the color wire nuts, you might not be an electrician...
> 
> I'm going to submit a proposal for the 2017 NEC. Wire nuts must match the color of the insulation of the conductor they're being used on. Green for green/bare.
> 
> Wirenut manufacturers are going to love this.


Are you kidding? We need TR wirenuts.


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## Pete m.

Magnettica said:


> What code section is the green wire nut code?
> 
> Thank you. :whistling2:


Oh that code section exists... the inspector keeps it filed away with his collection of unicorns, tooth fairys, loch ness monsters, sasquatch and fire breathing dragons.

Good lord... this inspector makes me sad to claim that I'm one. 

Pete


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## wildleg

Magnettica said:


> I missed an inspection but my customer met with the inspector and told him I needed to have green wire nuts on my EGC splice(s). Of course he told him also that he would pass the job now and check the work later. I guess he means on the final. What code section is the green wire nut code?
> 
> Thank you. :whistling2:


care to list the township ?


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## 360max

Magnettica said:


> I missed an inspection but my customer met with the inspector and told him I needed to have green wire nuts on my EGC splice(s). Of course he told him also that he would pass the job now and check the work later. I guess he means on the final. What code section is the green wire nut code?
> 
> Thank you. :whistling2:


NEC section 250.201 -"if joining or splicing of an equipment grounding conductor, the splice shall be made in an approved junction box and shall be made with a green wire nut, that's how I like to see it done around here, and so it shall be."


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## Michigan Master

*Ahj*

Article 90.4 :sneaky2:


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## Chris1971

That inspector is nuts!:laughing:


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## FlyingSparks

Chris1971 said:


> That inspector is nuts!:laughing:


Nice pun!


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## Magnettica

Can't make this stuff up! And these are the speed bumps in my way to making my first of many million$.


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## Chris1971

Magnettica said:


> Can't make this stuff up! And these are the speed bumps in my way to making my first of many million$.


That inspector is an idiot. Did you ask for a code reference?


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## Celtic

Mags....
I was in New Providence/Berkeley Heights the other night...


I saw a van driving down Springfield Ave to Synder ~ for some reason, I was sure it was yours....
I was wrong.....and so is that inspector. :thumbsup:


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## chicken steve

I'm wondering if it's one of those inspectors with so many open tickets he can't see over his dashboard, and thinks_ 'yeah, the green wire nut thing, in and out under 5'....._

~CS~


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## nrp3

Where's the double face palm thing?


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## don_resqcapt19

This almost made the code in 2008. The proposal for 250.8 did not include list item #1 in its original form. The original proposal did include list item #3. If the change had not been made at the ROC stage the rule would have required the use of green wirenuts for grounding and bonding connections. The green wirenut is the only one listed as grounding and bonding equipment. The inclusion of list item #1 which permits listed pressure connectors clearly permits the use of any listed wirenut.


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## btharmy

Green wire nuts are listed for ONLY grounding and bonding, not circuit conductors. All other wire nuts are listed for circuit conductors AND grounding conductors. Just because green wire nuts are listed for only grounding doesn't mean other wire nuts are not.


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## Big John

I would love to hear an explanation of how fault current flowing on the EGC that is joined by a green wire nut, differs from the fault current being supplied by the hots that are joined by red wire nuts.


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## Magnettica

Celtic said:


> Mags....
> I was in New Providence/Berkeley Heights the other night...
> 
> 
> I saw a van driving down Springfield Ave to Synder ~ for some reason, I was sure it was yours....
> I was wrong.....and so is that inspector. :thumbsup:


That's my neighborhood up there! :thumbsup: 

Ever check out the Towne Deli in Summit by the New Providence train station? You must have. Great sandwiches up there. :thumbup:


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## youngapprentice

hell yeah the local 54 i think its called is the tits man.


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## Celtic

Magnettica said:


> That's my neighborhood up there! :thumbsup:
> 
> Ever check out the Towne Deli in Summit by the New Providence train station? You must have. Great sandwiches up there. :thumbup:


I used to work across the street from the deli....

....


......


wait for it ....


......


.... 




for the railroad. :laughing:


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## Boesk

I had that same question from an inspector here. When I asked about it I was told that it is because the green wire nut is the only one listed for the EGC fault current


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## BBQ

Boesk said:


> I had that same question from an inspector here. When I asked about it I was told that it is because the green wire nut is the only one listed for the EGC fault current


Look at post 20 and ask the inspector that same question.


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## I_get_shocked

I believe unless the wirenut is listed for grounding its not compliant. Color does not play a factor and just because a particular wire nut is listed, it may not be listed for that particular use (grounding).


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## I_get_shocked

Big John said:


> I would love to hear an explanation of how fault current flowing on the EGC that is joined by a green wire nut, differs from the fault current being supplied by the hots that are joined by red wire nuts.


There's an article from Mike Holt which basically states wire nuts listed for grounding adhere to more vigorous tests (in relation to ground faults) 
While their other wire nuts do not get the above tests and therefore aren't listed for grounding. Probably just a $$$$ maker


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## mbednarik

Ok then you should have to use listed wirenuts on all ungrounded and GEC conductors, because typically the ungrounded conductor becomes grounded creating the fault. The same current is drawn on the hot as is travelling on the EGC. Beware of Wago brand connectors, IIRC these say on the label that they are not to be used on the EGC, so I use ideals brand instead.


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## I_get_shocked

Ideal "wagos" are listed for grounding as well so youd be in compliance using say a yellow on the egc


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## dronai

Use crimping sleeves instead. Space savers


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## macmikeman

dronai said:


> Use crimping sleeves instead. Space savers


True dat for space savers, but they too are not actually listed by UL as a grounding connector means. 


I use em all the time.....


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## dronai

macmikeman said:


> True dat for space savers, but they too are not actually listed by UL as a grounding connector means.
> 
> 
> I use em all the time.....


UL, But are they an approved method in the NEC ?


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## electricmanscott

I_get_shocked said:


> There's an article from Mike Holt which basically states wire nuts listed for grounding adhere to more vigorous tests (in relation to ground faults)
> While their other wire nuts do not get the above tests and therefore aren't listed for grounding. Probably just a $$$$ maker


I'd like to read that article.


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## HARRY304E

Magnettica said:


> I missed an inspection but my customer met with the inspector and told him I needed to have green wire nuts on my EGC splice(s). Of course he told him also that he would pass the job now and check the work later. I guess he means on the final. What code section is the green wire nut code?
> 
> Thank you. :whistling2:


Has the inspector ever touched a screwdriver?:no:


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## Big John

I believe I found the text of the Mike Holt article, this was the response from UL:


> Mike – I’d like to respond to your inquiry to UL regarding the use of twist-on type wire connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors. I believe that to properly answer this inquiry we need to reference requirements in both the NEC and the guide information which UL provides for listed products.
> 
> Sec. 250-8 of the NEC indicates that grounding conductors shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Pressure wire connectors are listed under the category of Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs (UL Guide ZMVV). A “twist-on” connector is a type of pressure cable connector that is tested to the UL Standard for Splicing Wire Connectors, UL486C. The requirements for these connectors include mechanical securement tests, as well as their ability to carry continuous current within acceptable temperature limits. Listed products in this category are identified by the words “Wire Connector” (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container. Based on this information, a listed “Wire Connector,” including the twist-on type, should be suitable for connecting equipment grounding conductors. There was also some question regarding the color of the connector insulation. Listed insulated twist-on type wire connectors are typically provided in a variety of insulation colors, however, to the best of our knowledge we have not listed a wire connector with green color insulation.
> 
> NEC Sec. 250-119 requires covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors to have a green or green with yellow stripes outer finish, but there is no NEC requirement for the color of the insulation of a wire connector used to connect equipment grounding conductors.
> 
> NEC Sec. 250-8 also permits “other listed means” for connecting grounding conductors. UL has a category for Grounding and Bonding Equipment (UL Guide KDER). Grounding Connectors are a special type of connector that is tested to the UL467 Standard for Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
> 
> The requirements for grounding connectors include mechanical securement tests, but unlike wire connectors, these connectors are not subjected to a continuous current test. In lieu of this test, there is a special short time current test in UL467 to show the ability of a grounding connector to safely conduct fault current. There are some listed twist-on type connectors with green color insulation that are listed as grounding connectors. Listed products in this category are identified by the words “Grounding Connector” (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container.
> 
> It should be noted that grounding connectors are only used for connecting grounding conductors, and unlike listed wire connectors, cannot be used to connect current carrying conductors (including grounded and ungrounded conductors). There are some listed Wire Connectors of the twist-on type that are also tested and complementary listed as Grounding Connectors, and the listing mark information for these products will identify them as both. The insulation on these connectors (with both listings) can be various colors, except green. We understand that some jurisdictional authorities may require listed grounding connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors, and some may require only those with green insulation, and this is certainly permitted by Sec. 90-4 of the NEC. To satisfy this need, the listing categories of “Grounding Connectors”, and “Wire Connectors complementary listed as Grounding Connectors” were established for the manufacturers of these products.


Short answer: Normal wirenuts are tested to be suitable for carrying continuous current. Green wirenuts are only tested to carry current under temporary fault conditions.


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## BBQ

I_get_shocked said:


> There's an article from Mike Holt which basically states wire nuts listed for grounding adhere to more vigorous tests (in relation to ground faults)
> *While their other wire nuts do not get the above tests and therefore aren't listed for grounding. *


But the fact remains the NEC does not require wirenuts used for EGCs to be 'listed for grounding'. See 250.8(A)(1). 



> *250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
> 
> (A) Permitted Methods.* Equipment grounding conductors,
> grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers
> shall be connected by one of the following means:
> 
> (1) Listed pressure connectors


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## I_get_shocked

It requires them to be used in accordance with their listing and if they arent listed for grounding you are in violation.


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## 480sparky

Big John said:


> I would love to hear an explanation of how fault current flowing on the EGC that is joined by a green wire nut, differs from the fault current being supplied by the hots that are joined by red wire nuts.


Same way a fault current in a gray or brown plastic box will not start your house on fire, but fault current in a BLUE box will. :whistling2:


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## don_resqcapt19

I_get_shocked said:


> It requires them to be used in accordance with their listing and if they arent listed for grounding you are in violation.


They are specifically permitted to be used for grounding by list item #1 in 250.8. Using them is not a violation.

If the standard wirenut cannot handle the fault current, how does that current get to the EGC????


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## I_get_shocked

don_resqcapt19 said:


> They are specifically permitted to be used for grounding by list item #1 in 250.8. Using them is not a violation.
> 
> If the standard wirenut cannot handle the fault current, how does that current get to the EGC????


250.8 permits the usage of LISTED pressure connectors and 110.3b requires you to use the product in accordance with its listing. If your standard wire nut is not listed for grounding, then IMO you're in violation of 110.3b


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## I_get_shocked

don_resqcapt19 said:


> They are specifically permitted to be used for grounding by list item #1 in 250.8. Using them is not a violation.
> 
> If the standard wirenut cannot handle the fault current, how does that current get to the EGC????


Explain why UL 467 exists and why manufacturers choose to pay to have their products tested to UL 467 requirements for grounding and bonding?


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## TGGT

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers wrote into the Constitution that our right not use green wire nuts for EGC's will not be infringed.


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## n5i5ken

*green wire nut*

A number of years ago , one of the manufactures came up with a "GREENIE" it was green in colour and had a hole at the opposite end where a bare ground conductor could pass thru. Anyone else remember them????


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## Deep Cover

n5i5ken said:


> A number of years ago , one of the manufactures came up with a "GREENIE" it was green in colour and had a hole at the opposite end where a bare ground conductor could pass thru. Anyone else remember them????


Maybe I am missing the sarcasm, but that is what this entire thread was about. :whistling2:


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## Louieb

Where was that? We need Suzannne BACK!


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## Big John

I_get_shocked said:


> Explain why UL 467 exists and why manufacturers choose to pay to have their products tested to UL 467 requirements for grounding and bonding?


 It's a good question. The only answer I can think of is because there are many other devices besides wire nuts that fall under that standard, and grounding-and-bonding often require special connections between points that are not designed to normally be current-carrying conductors, so I can see how there'd be some uncertainty about performance.

I looked at the standard for grounding devices and it was interesting that they required a short-circuit test of hundreds of amperes, whereas there's no such test for normal wire connectors, only a long-time load test.

It still seems like a bureaucratic oversight to me, though. I don't believe that anyone suspects a normal wire connector is not suitable to carry fault current.


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## don_resqcapt19

I_get_shocked said:


> 250.8 permits the usage of LISTED pressure connectors and 110.3b requires you to use the product in accordance with its listing. If your standard wire nut is not listed for grounding, then IMO you're in violation of 110.3b


Show me something in the listing for a pressure connector that says you cannot use them for grounding and bonding and then I will agree with you. The code does not require the pressure connector to be listed for grounding and bonding, so the only way there is a 110.3(B) violation is if the listing and labeling for the pressure connector says that you can't use them for a grounding or bonding connection.


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## NacBooster29

I had a similar issue with an isnspector. I had used bucnanons on my egc, and he wanted to see my listed crimp tool. So I showed him my Kleins with the crimp in the handle. 
He said that wasn't one of buchanans listed tools.
I didn't want to get into a p!swing match over simantics so I just popped on green wire nuts. No big deal.
The big deal came up when the home owners added a 1' counter where there wasn't one on the print. In the kitchen. I had to get creative to get them a receptacle to serve that 1' counter top. Blah


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## macmikeman

NacBooster29 said:


> I had a similar issue with an isnspector. I had used bucnanons on my egc, and he wanted to see my listed crimp tool. So I showed him my Kleins with the crimp in the handle.
> He said that wasn't one of buchanans listed tools.
> I didn't want to get into a p!swing match over simantics so I just popped on green wire nuts. No big deal.
> The big deal came up when the home owners added a 1' counter where there wasn't one on the print. In the kitchen. I had to get creative to get them a receptacle to serve that 1' counter top. Blah



You should have told him it was a Sta-kon crimp tube....



Klein is listed with them for that.


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## TGGT

Big John said:


> It's a good question. The only answer I can think of is because there are many other devices besides wire nuts that fall under that standard, and grounding-and-bonding often require special connections between points that are not designed to normally be current-carrying conductors, so I can see how there'd be some uncertainty about performance.
> 
> I looked at the standard for grounding devices and it was interesting that they required a short-circuit test of hundreds of amperes, whereas there's no such test for normal wire connectors, only a long-time load test.
> 
> It still seems like a bureaucratic oversight to me, though. I don't believe that anyone suspects a normal wire connector is not suitable to carry fault current.


What?

Bureaucracies aren't perfect??


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## forgotflying

the only times i have seen a houses where all Green wire nuts were used for GC they were total hack jobs..

In my opinion those should be more of a red flag than blue boxes.

I used to keep one green nut in pouch thinking that i might find a useful situation for it...after 4 years of carrying it around i decided it wasn't worth it's weight.


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## FlatRateGator

Nothing wrong with greenies, per se. But in my electrician's mind, it screams DIY. But I like to drive a nail in the stud and secure my grounds under that when I bend it over.


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## btharmy

I have NEVER purchased a bag of green wire nuts and never will. A waste of $$$ in my opinion.


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## macmikeman

forgotflying said:


> I used to keep one green nut in pouch thinking that i might find a useful situation for it...after 4 years of carrying it around i decided it wasn't worth it's weight.




Same exact thing with me. I think I still got my one in the bag. I kept it from a kitchen demo.


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## electricmanscott

NacBooster29 said:


> I had a similar issue with an isnspector. I had used bucnanons on my egc, and he wanted to see my listed crimp tool. So I showed him my Kleins with the crimp in the handle.
> He said that wasn't one of buchanans listed tools.
> I didn't want to get into a p!swing match over simantics so I just popped on green wire nuts. No big deal.


That's an inspector that just wanted to show you he knows more than you. also know as a dbag.


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## electricmanscott

FlatRateGator said:


> Nothing wrong with greenies, per se. But in my electrician's mind, it screams DIY. .


Are you serious? 

This thread has turned nutty in a hurry. :laughing:


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## thegoldenboy

electricmanscott said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> This thread has turned nutty in a hurry. :laughing:


Pretwisting is hack, it changes the characteristics of the conductor and should be disallowed. 

:laughing:


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## RHWilks

My helper told me green wire nuts, are a good 1 hitter for wacky tabacy. It would have never crossed my mind lolol. 
The Buchanan crimps work ok, pain to break loose. Wago's I still don't like them. I guess split bolts for the EGC?


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## Magnettica

Louieb said:


> Where was that? We need Suzannne BACK!


News to me. What happened to her?


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## Magnettica

RHWilks said:


> My helper told me green wire nuts, are a good 1 hitter for wacky tabacy. It would have never crossed my mind lolol.
> The Buchanan crimps work ok, pain to break loose. Wago's I still don't like them. I guess split bolts for the EGC?


How the hell do you smoke out of split-bolts and Wago's? :whistling2: :no:


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## FlatRateGator

electricmanscott said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> This thread has turned nutty in a hurry. :laughing:


Did you see me call using them wrong or nutty?

In my time, I have never come across a professionally installed electrical system that used greenies. I have never seen them in another electrician's pouch or truck, and the supply house doesn't stock them. Where I have seen them was on DIY or handyman jobs. So TO ME it is the sign of a non-electrician.

And that IS NOT saying it is wrong or sub-par. It has just never entered my sphere of professional experience. Therefore, it "feels" DIY to me.


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## EBFD6

FlatRateGator said:


> Did you see me call using them wrong or nutty?
> 
> In my time, I have never come across a professionally installed electrical system that used greenies. I have never seen them in another electrician's pouch or truck, and the supply house doesn't stock them. Where I have seen them was on DIY or handyman jobs. So TO ME it is the sign of a non-electrician.
> 
> And that IS NOT saying it is wrong or sub-par. It has just never entered my sphere of professional experience. Therefore, it "feels" DIY to me.


We use thousands of them. In this area if you go on any large commercial job site you most likely will find them using greenies.


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## thegoldenboy

Depots got em in stock by the bags full. :laughing:


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## ed-flip

In a sorta similar topic. I though I had found at one point in the code book, that you have you use a ground pigtail to bond the box... I've seen where they strip back one of the grounds in the middle of the wire MC cable and just wrap that around a ground screw, and then twist all the grounds together along with the one wrapped around the ground screw with a wire nut. In other words eliminating 1 wire from the equation.


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## thegoldenboy

ed-flip said:


> In a sorta similar topic. I though I had found at one point in the code book, that you have you use a ground pigtail to bond the box... I've seen where they strip back one of the grounds in the middle of the wire MC cable and just wrap that around a ground screw, and then twist all the grounds together along with the one wrapped around the ground screw with a wire nut. In other words eliminating 1 wire from the equation.


Common practice. If you can cite the article showing that it's wrong, I'll never do it again.

Ground screws are supposed to be green too. :whistling2:


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## FlatRateGator

I strip the green in the middle and wrap it on the bond screw of the box, then strip it again for the device, and continue from there to the wirenut for other grounds. So one long continuous ground from the box to the device to the other grounds (if present).


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## ed-flip

thegoldenboy said:


> Common practice. If you can cite the article showing that it's wrong, I'll never do it again.
> 
> Ground screws are supposed to be green too. :whistling2:


I can not find it anymore lol. 


FlatRateGator said:


> I strip the green in the middle and wrap it on the bond screw of the box, then strip it again for the device, and continue from there to the wirenut for other grounds. So one long continuous ground from the box to the device to the other grounds (if present).


yes, except I would still pigtail the device, but somewhere along the line I could of sworn I seen where it wasnt allowed.


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## thegoldenboy

ed-flip said:


> I can not find it anymore lol.
> 
> yes, except I would still pigtail the device, but somewhere along the line I could of sworn I seen where it wasnt allowed.


Because it doesn't exist.


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