# Grounding grounding grounding



## jjdrees (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi to all, Its been a while since my last post. Work in 09 was oh so slow. work in '10 has been busiest yet. lol
Let me start with I have been out of residential for a while. So be gentle :laughing:
I'm doing a service change for my buddy, Im not sure on the whole grounding issue. last time I did it all I had to do was go to a ground rod and go to a water line. Now im hearing that I need to go to the inlet side of the water meter.

I have my meter base set and disconect set right beside it. Somebody let me know how they normally ground it. 
like I said be gentle. Its been atleast 6 years since I have touched romex.
thanks in advance
Josh (Ohio)


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What Code year are you using?


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## jjdrees (Oct 8, 2008)

09 I havent recieved the new code yet


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Since the NEC was not published in '09, and all of your posts so far are DIY-ish, you might want to get a bit more field experience before you tackle a service upgrade.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe it's the 2009 *IRC*?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Maybe it's the 2009 *IRC*?


Maybe, but I'd rather think he's embarking on work without any real knowledge of the codes, and he's filling in what he thinks he knows with extra information from an internet forum. That's what I think. Been wrong before, though.


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## jjdrees (Oct 8, 2008)

Granted I am younger (25) I do have field experiance. I have about 4 years commercial experiance. and I have 2 of the 4 years for my journeymans. sorry I gave the wrong year. I asked someone what year the book was and they told me 09. I am complelty confident that I can do a service change. I have done one in the past. I was simply asking a grounding question.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It does seem odd that someone with said experience does not know there isn't a 2009 NEC.

The closest you'll find is the 2008, and it may have been _printed_ in 2009, but it's still the 2008.


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## jjdrees (Oct 8, 2008)

I guess its a little diffrent but im employed as an electrician at a machine shop. so I guess it would be like machine maintenance/electrician. I went a voacational school two years for elecrical then did two years of night school for my journeymans licence. I have been out of the "field" for about 3-4 years but I consider what Im doing now an electrician position. Electrical work in a couple diffrent forms is the only job I have ever had after leaving school.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jjdrees said:


> Granted I am younger (25) I do have field experiance. I have about 4 years commercial experiance. and I have 2 of the 4 years for my journeymans. sorry I gave the wrong year. I asked someone what year the book was and they told me 09. I am complelty confident that I can do a service change. I have done one in the past. I was simply asking a grounding question.


Fantastic. You'll find your answer in your copy of the NEC, article 250.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

That's still an odd question even for a commercial guy with 4 years experience....


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

You are taking a lot of flack, and rightfully so. But you're hanging in there and as long as the mods don't shut you down I'll work with you. As MD said you seem inexperienced, at least in this effort, but I am inexperienced in a lot of phases as I don't do them everyday. If you have a water pipe system from the street or at least 10 in the ground upon entering the premises, you must use it as a grounding electrode and the connection would have to be on the line side of the water disconnect at the premises.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

From one unlicensed guy to another unlicensed guy- you are not yet qualified to do this type of work without a journeyman or master present. It is also likely illegal. Good luck.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

jjdrees said:


> > I'm doing a service change for my buddy, Im not sure on the whole grounding issue. last time I did it all I had to do was go to a ground rod and go to a water line.
> 
> 
> That is commendable of you to help a buddy. Did he pull the permit?
> ...


Aside from 'other supplementals' two ground rods driven is the norm for remods unless a 25 ohm max is proven. Good Luck.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Question?

In he US and Canada can you accept high resistance values for the earth electrode ie in the 100's - if you protect the entire mains incoming system with a mains incomer RCD (GFI)


Frank


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

frank said:


> Question?
> 
> In he US and Canada can you accept high resistance values for the earth electrode ie in the 100's - if you protect the entire mains incoming system with a mains incomer RCD (GFI)
> 
> ...


Please bear in mind, being unfamiliar with your area of an RCD protection system, I can only give an answer based on the following:

The electrodes are used for Lightning imposed or unstabilized Hi-voltage transient paths dissipation to earth and do not provide an electrical circuit fault protection function. An electrode can still carry energized shock leakages from equipment-fault to soil conditions and can be fatal from touch-step contact...if that is what you are asking.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

one thing about using the metal water pipe for a ground, you should verify you have at least 10' in the ground from the house. You never know if the water from the meter to the house has some length of it replaced with PVC. Here, we make contractors prove they have the required 10'. Also, you need to keep the ground rods at least 6' apart (NEC 250.53(B)), for a maximum ground profile. Don't forget to provide a means for an intersystem bonding jumper (NEC 250.94), DO NOT bond trac pipe for natural gas unless it is rated for it (the black stuff). Just a couple of hints, ALL the answers you need are in Mr. Code-book, you should have a copy in your "shop".


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

rbj


If I understand you - electrodes ARE NOT used to carry earth fault path currents. What then do US circuits utilise for fault current protection. If you use the water pipe how do you gaurantee continuous fault path integrity if a utility Co should dig up the treet piping and install plastic etc


Frank


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

frank said:


> rbj
> 
> 
> If I understand you - electrodes ARE NOT used to carry earth fault path currents. What then do US circuits utilise for fault current protection. If you use the water pipe how do you gaurantee continuous fault path integrity if a utility Co should dig up the treet piping and install plastic etc
> ...


The earth(ground) is intended to take currents caused by abnormal higher voltages to ground. Those are voltages that are not intended to be there such as...lightning, primary to secondary problems at the service transformer,etc. Those examples are the reasons we use the ground rod...water pipe, etc. The other circuit fault current, such as a hot to ground potential, will be taken back to the source of the voltage via the egc in order to trip the circuit breaker/protector. As far as the water company replacing with plastic, that is why you must drive a supplemental ground rod in addition.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jsmit319 said:


> one thing about using the metal water pipe for a ground, you should verify you have at least 10' in the ground from the house. You never know if the water from the meter to the house has some length of it replaced with PVC. Here, we make contractors prove they have the required 10'.




Say an EC is upgrading an existing service......it has a copper water pipe.
Here it will be used as a GEC. 2 ground rods are required in my area anyway. So even if the water pipe was not 10 ft in contact(which if I'm thinking correctly you would have to dig it up to verify???) we are covered. How do you make the ec verify it has 10ft on existing services?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Say an EC is upgrading an existing service......it has a copper water pipe.
> Here it will be used as a GEC. 2 ground rods are required in my area anyway. So even if the water pipe was not 10 ft in contact(which if I'm thinking correctly you would have to dig it up to verify???) we are covered. How do you make the ec verify it has 10ft on existing services?


That's a good question. Why couldn't a person just go by the 25 ohm rule?


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> That's a good question. Why couldn't a person just go by the 25 ohm rule?



I would guess it is because if the water pipe is present and is copper it most likely is in contact for 10 ft and is your GE. The rods are supplemental and would meet the exception if the water pipe was not an GE.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Why couldn't a person just go by the 25 ohm rule?


What do you mean by this?


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

two ways. 1. Dig and expose 10' of water pipe or 
2. We can accept a continuity from the house-side of the water meter to the water main at the house, upstream side of the shut-off valve.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Jsmit319 said:


> two ways. 1. Dig and expose 10' of water pipe or
> 2. We can accept a continuity from the house-side of the water meter to the water main at the house, upstream side of the shut-off valve.



Seems like a lot to go thru when adding two rods to it would cover you either way.....for once I'm glad I live/work in NC...


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

That's why most sane Ec's don't deal with it and put in two ground rods or will pour a ufer. I just had a stubborn one that loved to argue and this is the solution I came up with to allow him to use the cold water pipe. Spent a dollar to save a dime.:shifty:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Jsmit319 said:


> two ways. 1. Dig and expose 10' of water pipe or
> 2. We can accept a continuity from the house-side of the water meter to the water main at the house, upstream side of the shut-off valve.


It won't hurt to bond the water pipe even if there isn't 10' in the ground-- that is a whole lot simpler than digging up the pipe. The 2 rods will be required regardless.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

Try explaining that to a guy who won't listen, and thinks all inspectors are a waste of human flesh. So I told him the same thing in a way he believed he was right. He got to say the the water pipe was his grounding electrode and the rods were his supplemental. What difference was it? I don't know, but he was happy he showed me a thing or two.:thumbsup:


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Lies, all Lies.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

gold said:


> Lies, all Lies.


:lol::lol:


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> Say an EC is upgrading an existing service......it has a copper water pipe.
> Here it will be used as a GEC. 2 ground rods are required in my area anyway. So even if the water pipe was not 10 ft in contact(which if I'm thinking correctly you would have to dig it up to verify???) we are covered. How do you make the ec verify it has 10ft on existing services?


 


My thought Exactly. Nobody's digging up a DAMN thing. If it changes to plastic right on the other side of the foundation, Who care's?,,,,there's no code that says I cannot bond it anyway. So,,,,,,who in their right mind would ACTUALLY dig up something to prove to an idiot insepector, when in the end it changes NOTHING.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Do you have to jumper a meter though? I'd ground on the inlet side and let the hot water heater bond the other side myself. It's been years since I did one of those.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Frank where have you been?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> What do you mean by this?


What I mean is that if the code requires you to drive a ground rod (supplemental), and that ground rod only needs to measure 25 ohms or less to ground...if that is sufficient to dissipate a lightning strike, then why should a water pipe electrode be any different? If you believe that a water pipe is at least ten feet into the earth and a measurement of the resistance proves to be 25 ohms, or less, why is that not good enough? I put a smiley to show that I'm not being argumentative.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> why is that not good enough? I put a smiley to show that I'm not being argumentative.


I was curious and didn't understand but now that I do, I agree-- I don't know why the supplemental rods would be necessary-- perhaps because it may or possible will get changed to plastic or whatever at another time. 

With a ufer there is no changing so the supplemental rods are not necessary.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Do you have to jumper a meter though? I'd ground on the inlet side and let the hot water heater bond the other side myself. It's been years since I did one of those.


You cannot use the water heater egc to bond the water pipe. If the meter is inside, IMO you must jumper so that both sides are bonded or run another bond for the interior section of the pipe. 

The EGC is allowed to bond gas pipe but not water pipe. Interior water pipe must be bonded per T.250.66


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I was curious and didn't understand but now that I do, I agree-- I don't know why the supplemental rods would be necessary-- perhaps because it may or possible will get changed to plastic or whatever at another time.
> 
> With a ufer there is no changing so the supplemental rods are not necessary.


 I personally am in favor of placing several electrodes and not including the water pipe for various reasons. As you said a properly utilized UFER is the best.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> I personally am in favor of placing several electrodes and not including the water pipe for various reasons. As you said a properly utilized UFER is the best.


 Amen. I love you man.:thumbup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

gold said:


> Amen. I love you man.:thumbup:


Have we met????


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## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Have we met????


Don't get excited Riveter...it's the Patron goggles!:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Split Bolt said:


> Don't get excited Riveter...it's the Patron goggles!:laughing:


Darn...Why do the good ones always get away? But, I know what you mean.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I personally am in favor of placing several electrodes and not including the water pipe for various reasons. As you said a properly utilized UFER is the best.


Personally I think multiple ground rods is a waste of time and money unless you have really moist and very conductive soil. In most of NC 2 rods will give you about 89 ohms. I did a ufer and got 13 ohms. Never checked the water pipe electrode.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Grounding??? who needs grounding, just insulink the existing #6 al to a peice of #4 copper and hide splice in the wall, do the same at the watermain and stick a 3' cut off of ground rod in the earth a poke a piece of #6 in the wall. I had a late ex boss doing this as normal practice. And yes, he would park his van right outside the front door of he bar.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Grounding??? who needs grounding, just insulink the existing #6 al to a peice of #4 copper and hide splice in the wall, do the same at the watermain and stick a 3' cut off of ground rod in the earth a poke a piece of #6 in the wall. I had a late ex boss doing this as normal practice. And yes, he would park his van right outside the front door of he bar.


 

You probably recommended all those things to him


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> You probably recommended all those things to him


 You rained out also?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> You rained out also?


 

I came to a job in Richmond, they wanted me to finish up the kitchen receptacles before they tile, well, there 10 people working in the kithchen right now as we speak. I still have not finished the 400 amp service outside, but I'm not working on that in this rain, so I'm sitting in the truck, talking to you:whistling2:


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

"My thought Exactly. Nobody's digging up a DAMN thing. If it changes to plastic right on the other side of the foundation, Who care's?,,,,there's no code that says I cannot bond it anyway. So,,,,,,who in their right mind would ACTUALLY dig up something to prove to an idiot insepector, when in the end it changes NOTHING"

Whatever an insepector is, they must be pretty dumb.:laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I came to a job in Richmond, they wanted me to finish up the kitchen receptacles before they tile, well, there 10 people working in the kithchen right now as we speak. I still have not finished the 400 amp service outside, but I'm not working on that in this rain, so I'm sitting in the truck, talking to you:whistling2:


Hear that.....got 200' of sweetbriar in the truck waiting to get layed down. Not today. Daytime tv today.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

Fine so far - but what is the 'ecg'?

Frank


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

:laughing:


mcclary's electrical said:


> You probably recommended all those things to him


 I've been known to corrupt others, usually girls in their late teens. i take my grounding seriously


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

frank said:


> Fine so far - but what is the 'ecg'?
> 
> Frank


Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I think you mean EGC, Equipment Grounding Conductor...not to be confused with GEC, Ground Electrode Conductor. 

Riveter summed up the US system pretty much and I would add that the EGC is the missing link in your question as far as bonding the non-energized metal parts of a Grounded System to the AC source reference. 

All NM-B cable have an EGC conductor that bonds the equipment metal case back through to the service main and the AC source to ensure that the circuit breakers trip.

The embedded Ground (earth) Electrode, also tied into the service main by the GEC, is not capable of tripping the circuits due to the electrode-to-soil high impedances that restrict fault-currents from tripping the Overcurrent Protection Devices. 

Maybe you could help me understand how the equipment grounding system in the UK is done. 

rbj


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Let's say I have two seperate basements, the main service in one, the watermain and sub panel in the other and a 1 1/2 conduit running between the main panel in one basement, and a sub panel in the other basement. If i were to pull a #6 cu GEC(150 amp) through the conduit to the watermain basement with my sub feeders, can I bug off this in the pull box for my sub panel ground. This was an installation i performed and it DID pass inspection but it's legality has been challenged with another electrician.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> can I bug off this in the pull box for my sub panel ground. This was an installation i performed and it DID pass inspection but it's legality has been challenged with another electrician.


Depends if the bug is irreversible. [250.64(C)(1)]


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

rbj said:


> Depends if the bug is irreversible. [250.64(C)(1)]


If the gec is unbroken then the bug would not have to be irreversible. I also assume the install is not in metal conduit and the gec is not solid.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rbj said:


> Depends if the bug is irreversible. [250.64(C)(1)]


 
Wrong, it doesn't have to be irreversible unless it's a GEC, which this is not. Hie GEC is continous, the ground bug can be tapped on with a split bolt.

It sounds legal as described


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the gec is unbroken then the bug would not have to be irreversible. I also assume the install is not in metal conduit and the gec is not solid.


The install was pvc w/ #6 sol. bare


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Wrong, it doesn't have to be irreversible unless it's a GEC, which this is not. Hie GEC is continous, the ground bug can be tapped on with a split bolt.
> 
> It sounds legal as described


That was a CYA depends answer to the limited description given.:whistling2: (I.e. location where the pull box is between the dwellings, if the (main?) GEC went directly to the water-pipe, or within 5 feet of the foundation exit. Also material of conduit and bonding was not mentioned as Dennis noted.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

rbj said:


> That was a CYA depends answer to the limited description given.:whistling2: (I.e. location where the pull box is between the dwellings, if the (main?) GEC went directly to the water-pipe, or within 5 feet of the foundation exit. Also material of conduit and bonding was not mentioned as Dennis noted.


Pull box was located on foundation wall(point of entry in back) , panel was nippled (pvc) to pullbox. Continuos GEC run exited box 6' below to watermain. Bug nut tapped #8 to 100 amp sub panel, 2 #2s and 1 #4 went back to main panel along GEC and 2 #18 thhn boiler tstat s


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> If i were to pull a #6 cu GEC(150 amp) through the conduit to the watermain basement


Think Shockdoc did say it was the GEC.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Pull box was located on foundation wall(point of entry in back) , panel was nippled (pvc) to pullbox. Continuos GEC run exited box 6' below to watermain. Bug nut tapped #8 to 100 amp sub panel, 2 #2s and 1 #4 went back to main panel along GEC and 2 #18 thhn boiler tstat s


 


legal........


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> Pull box was located on foundation wall(point of entry in back) , panel was nippled (pvc) to pullbox. Continuos GEC run exited box 6' below to watermain. Bug nut tapped #8 to 100 amp sub panel, 2 #2s and 1 #4 went back to main panel along GEC and 2 #18 thhn boiler tstat s


Thanks Shockdoc, Cancel my exothermic weld order....l


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> legal........


 I had another EC who knew me at that location , stated I should have ran the EGC and GEC both back to the main panel. I knew I was right . Thanks.


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## frank (Feb 6, 2007)

RBJ


This item has been covered a few times on this site so rather that repeat old news the best thing would be to take a peep at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system


This should answer your questions. And thanks for your relply. NOW it finally makes good sound sense

Frank


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> The install was pvc w/ #6 sol. bare





mcclary's electrical said:


> legal........


I will have to disagree. This is an illegal install. Look at art. 310.3



> 310.3 Stranded Conductors.
> Where installed in raceways, conductors of size 8 AWG and larger shall be stranded.
> Exception: As permitted or required elsewhere in this Code.


For the application you are doing this install is not permitted elsewhere in the code.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I will have to disagree. This is an illegal install. Look at art. 310.3
> 
> 
> 
> For the application you are doing this install is not permitted elsewhere in the code.


Wow, I've had services passed using #4 cu bare solid as the neutral conductor in pvc. Is that 05 or 08 ?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> Wow, I've had services passed using #4 cu bare solid as the neutral conductor in pvc.


I didn't say it wouldn't pass-- most people don't realize this is actual code.  I got hit on it for a GEC running thru the nipple from outside panel to inside panel.


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## rbj (Oct 23, 2007)

frank said:


> RBJ
> 
> 
> This item has been covered a few times on this site so rather that repeat old news the best thing would be to take a peep at
> ...


Yer Welcome and Tx also. rbj


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