# Panel in crawl space



## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I just installed this panel, it was in a crawl space. That was the first time that I ever saw a panel in a crawl space. I had to sit the whole time that I was installing it, my butt and legs were killing me. The whole street has their panels in the crawl space.


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## Wireless (Jan 22, 2007)

Wouldn't there be some clearance issues? You can sell the whole street on bringing their panels up to code!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I was asked to put a panel in an attic on a new build!!,,,,I couldn't believe it,,,,,,THERE"S NOT 6.5 feet there,,,,,,it's illegal to put a panel there.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Why would you install it there. I would have used the old one as a j-box and put the panel inside the dwelling.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

That 's two wire feeder,,,,,,,,so this is a SERVICE PANEL!,,,Where's the grounded conductor? Maybe I can't see it. Can anybody tell??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> That 's two wire feeder,,,,,,,,so this is a SERVICE PANEL!,,,Where's the grounded conductor? Maybe I can't see it. Can anybody tell??


I don't see a noodle either.

There's a lot of bare copper in the top right, and a large white conductor to the right of breaker #2, but I think they go to the 8/3 or 6/3 NM.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I take it your not getting this inspected, or you just wasted a whole lot of time.


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## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I was asked to put a panel in an attic on a new build!!,,,,I couldn't believe it,,,,,,THERE"S NOT 6.5 feet there,,,,,,it's illegal to put a panel there.


That must never happen.. Too much heat up there already. Don't know if it's in the code but logic would scream NO!


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I wouldn't want to service/troubleshoot it. I'd have to lay in the dirt :laughing:

I suppose I can think of worse situations/violations but........ehh.

At least it's new equipment.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've installed panels in crawls spaces like that before, and really had no other good option. These were network services, that came in underground to begin with, right into the crawl space. What's a man to do in that case? Like Big Red, there were blocks and blocks of places like that. Some had the meter and service panel in the crawl, and others just a meter and a disconnect. You pretty much had to have _something_ in the crawl. You were sorta thrown under the bus by the PoCo.

In Big Red's case, it looks like the panel is "just inside" the crawl. Looks like he's got a door open from the basement into the crawl section.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Yes Red, do tell, where is the neutral?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Yes Red, do tell, where is the neutral?


It's not needed.... this is installed under the new Congressionally-mandated 240-volt system.:whistling2:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

It doesn't need a neutral?

Someone explain this to me like I'm a 2nd year helper.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> It doesn't need a neutral?
> 
> Someone explain this to me like I'm a 2nd year helper.


It's an inside joke. :thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

william1978 said:


> I take it your not getting this inspected, or you just wasted a whole lot of time.


With the Rehab code it would still pass if it was around here.

The Rehab code throws 110.26 out the window

It allows people to make there existing stuff safer without breaking the bank


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

So what the hell is up with the whole "no neutral" deal? You gonna tell us about it nutslapper or what?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

steelersman said:


> So what the hell is up with the whole "no neutral" deal? You gonna tell us about it nutslapper or what?


Didn't you hear congress is mandating dropping 120 and requiring 230 to save energy? It was in all the posts while you were on vacation. Also spelling errors increased by 27% while you were chasing horses.
Chuck


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Hell, if Congress really wanted to save money they'd run everything on 480, duh.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Didn't you hear congress is mandating dropping 120 and requiring 230 to save energy?


Huh. And all this time I thought that watts were watts regardless of what voltage is applied.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

I am guessing that you couldnt sell them on a disconnect and putting the panel somewhere with a little more clearence. Im happy we dont have basements here.


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Thank you MD. This job was through a realtor, the people were moving, they could care less where the panel was. This was only a panel change, I charged them $900.00.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

So where is the neutral?


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## lagaceelectric (Mar 25, 2007)

If you look close you can see it. He just wrapped it with black tape.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> It's not needed.... this is installed under the new Congressionally-mandated 240-volt system.:whistling2:


I'm a creature of habit. I should have said, which one is the grounded conductor?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

lagaceelectric said:


> If you look close you can see it. He just wrapped it with black tape.


Hmmm....I guess I need another eye exam cause I sure as hell don't see any other wires in the service entrance other than the two hots.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> Hmmm....I guess I need another eye exam cause I sure as hell don't see any other wires in the service entrance other than the two hots.



It's in there. The neutral in #2 SEU cable is usually #4, so it's pretty small in comparison.

Now, taping it up seems like a waste of time to me. :001_huh:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Peter D said:


> It's in there. The neutral in #2 SEU cable is usually #4, so it's pretty small in comparison.
> 
> Now, taping it up seems like a waste of time to me. :001_huh:


That's because taping it up IS A WASTE OF TIME.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Now, taping it up seems like a waste of time to me. :001_huh:


Not only a waste of time, but it screams of: "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"! What a joke.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

It was identified, maybe not intentinally, by black tape ?
No white kicking around ?


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

It didn't need to be identified.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> It didn't need to be identified.


Or taped.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

I know that. If someones gonna waste their time taping up a standed conductor out of an SEU cable, they must have some reason they are doing it.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

ralph said:


> I know that. If someones gonna waste their time taping up a standed conductor out of an SEU cable, they must have some reason they are doing it.


Taping up a bare neutral in SEU cable keeps the electrons from falling out.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

MD Shunk,,,I'm disappointed that you as a moderator would justify putting this panel ina crawl,,,,when it's in clear violation of 110.26 (a) 3,,,it doesn't matter if they're moving or not,,,,,,,it's not legal. It has never been legal,,,you can't grandfather somethign that was never legal. You could easily make this a legal install,,,,I don't understand your theory of "what's he supposed to do?"


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't understand your theory of "what's he supposed to do?"


Because we don't live in a perfect world, that's why.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

true,,,,,but my point is,,,"what he's supposed to do" ,,,,,is a legal install,,,and this was not.


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## lagaceelectric (Mar 25, 2007)

I have seen a lot of electricians tape up the bare conductor and I can never understand there reasoning. I think it has something to do with they get scared of that big bare conductor being to close to the line lugs.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Taping up a bare neutral in SEU cable keeps the electrons from falling out.


That's f*cking hilarious. :jester:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Peter D said:


> Because we don't live in a perfect world, that's why.


d

wha . . .. ??????


speak for yourself


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> true,,,,,but my point is,,,"what he's supposed to do" ,,,,,is a legal install,,,and this was not.


But, in the real world, we can do a safe install that is not necessarily exactly to code, due to budget limitations or other factors. So, instead of throwing up your hands and saying "screw it", you find a way to make it maximally safe, even if slightly "skewed".


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> Why would you install it there. I would have used the old one as a j-box and put the panel inside the dwelling.


Best idea.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> But, in the real world, we can do a safe install that is not necessarily exactly to code, due to budget limitations or other factors. So, instead of throwing up your hands and saying "screw it", you find a way to make it maximally safe, even if slightly "skewed".


 I hope your liability insurance company reads this,,,,,,,,,you can bend the rules due to budget limitations,,,,,I like that (not)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

It would have been easy to do this right,,,,,that's all I'm saying of it:no:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> true,,,,,but my point is,,,"what he's supposed to do" ,,,,,is a legal install,,,and this was not.


Mac brings up a good point: is this kind of thing grandfathered in? Guess it depends on the AHJ in the local jurisdiction.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I hope your liability insurance company reads this,,,,,,,,,you can bend the rules due to budget limitations,,,,,I like that (not)


I didn't do the job. So, you have never ever bent a code? Yeah, I'll buy that


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I have been taping the neutral conductor for my whole electrical life (29yrs.). Why? to tell you the truth I do not know, that is the way that I was taught.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> I didn't do the job. So, you have never ever bent a code? Yeah, I'll buy that


 I've bent a code or two,,,,,but I've never put a service panel in 3' of headroom. If I exceed box fill limitations by 1-2 ci,,,,that's different than this,,,,if that panel ever caught fire (his fault or not) he'd be on the hook.


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## ralph (Apr 6, 2008)

Im sorry, but I wouldnt do that. You might, but as Mcclary stated putting a panel in that crawl space in the first place was not to code. Replacing with another panel in the same spot is somehting I wouldnt do. He got 900 bucks for that.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Ive did more than a few panel changes and upgrades in low ceiling areas and cellars just like that.

Never been questioned about it at all by any inspector.

Last one i did i relocated from a small ledge in the cellar ( very old 120V service that still managed to be around) to a more suitable location on the first floor.

But more times than not it goes right back where it was

take a look at 110.26 (E) exception... in existing dwellings services that do not exceed 200 amps shall be permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 6 1/2 feet.

I say good job for what you had to work with


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I've bent a code or two,,,,,but I've never put a service panel in 3' of headroom. If I exceed box fill limitations by 1-2 ci,,,,that's different than this,,,,if that panel ever caught fire (his fault or not) he'd be on the hook.


I'm not saying I would necessarily have done that same job that way, but I don't see a safety problem. Sure it may be a pain in the butt to service.

Your example with box fill is the exact same thing. If that box ever caught fire, your fault or not, you'd be on the hook. In fact, box fill is a rule regarding conductor heat dissipation, which may be more important than whether you have to duck to work on something.


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## froggie9189 (Aug 19, 2009)

*froggie9189*

No way. Why didn't you run it through to the outside? How do you sleep at night? Or is that just a joke that you photographed? I don't even care if your install is somehow legal!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Iif that panel ever caught fire (his fault or not) he'd be on the hook.


By that insane logic, we can be on the hook for _anything_ that we do, so why even worry about it?


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## froggie9189 (Aug 19, 2009)

*froggie9189*

So in case of emergency, crawl under the house and throw the main?


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

or call 911

or run outside

or run to the basement

whats the difference?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

froggie9189 said:


> So in case of emergency, crawl under the house and throw the main?


It doesn't appear as if this is at a belly crawl area. It looks like it is at the standing edge before you start crawling. I would agree with you that if this panel were in some location where you had to crawl to get to it, I would find another spot. As it is now, you are standing up when you operate the breakers, like a panel in any basement.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

There is no good reason for loops in the 2 conductors.

~Matt


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> There is no good reason for loops in the 2 conductors.
> 
> ~Matt


What is a good reason for not having loops then?


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shado said:


> What is a good reason for not having loops then?


Its neater, Less space taken up by the conductors if they go straight to the lugs. It doesnt make the electrons dizzy.

~Matt


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Its neater, Less space taken up by the conductors if they go straight to the lugs. It doesnt make the electrons dizzy.
> 
> ~Matt


Hehe..it doesn't make them flow faster either.:laughing:


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shado said:


> Hehe..it doesn't make them flow faster either.:laughing:


Its much better if they can just fall down to the bus. This is electricity, not plwater, we dont need a stinking P trap :thumbsup:

~Matt


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

................


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## George Stolz (Jan 22, 2009)

oldschool said:


> take a look at 110.26 (E) exception... in existing dwellings services that do not exceed 200 amps shall be permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 6 1/2 feet.


How _dare_ you try to ward off a good hanging with a code reference. You _jerk! _:furious:


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

Thank you "oldschool" for pointing out section 110.2(e) exception. Where are you from in PA.?


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Its much better if they can just fall down to the bus. This is electricity, not plwater, we dont need a stinking P trap :thumbsup:
> 
> ~Matt


LMAO!!!:laughing:


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

BIGRED said:


> Thank you "oldschool" for pointing out section 110.2(e) exception. Where are you from in PA.?


Fairfield


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

froggie9189 said:


> No way. Why didn't you run it through to the outside? How do you sleep at night? Or is that just a joke that you photographed? I don't even care if your install is somehow legal!


Did you read 110.26 (E) Exception?



> Exception: In existing dwelling units, service equipment
> or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be
> permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 2.0 m
> (61⁄2 ft).



Nice call Old Man.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

Shado said:


> LMAO!!!:laughing:


"plwater" is what I typed, Water is what I meant. plwater is cross betwixt plumbing and water. :thumbup:

~Matt


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## BIGRED (Jan 22, 2007)

I pride myself in being neat, clean, honest and doing all of my jobs to code, wether or not they get inspected or not. If I run into a situation that I am not sure of I always call my inspector before i do the job, wether or not the job is getting inspected. I had never saw a panel in a crawl space until this one. For some reason I didn't call my inspector and ask him about it. I just figured that the panel was existing and I was just replacing it. I called my inspector today, after the debate over was the panel replacement legal or not. I cited section 110.26(e)exception and he told me that that section does not apply in this situation. That section was basically for basements with low ceilings and that anytime that you have to sit in front of a panel, it is not safe. He said that he would have not passed it and told me that I should have moved the panel into the basement. He also said that I did a nice job on the panel, not to worry about it, its done and now you know for next time.


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## oldschool (Aug 2, 2008)

Thats interesting that he said it would not apply in that situation

I believe the exeption should give a minimum height then, not just say headroom less than 6 1/2 feet

Like i said i have had panels installed and inpected in areas just like that


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## Buck Parrish (May 7, 2009)

Thanks Speedy for moving it over here.
I went back and looked at the pictures.
I would have never replaced an old panel and put it back in that location.

It would not have been much harder to splice the wires. Then take them to a panel in a suitable location.

I went to a house one time a breaker was tripped. I had to crawl on my belly in water to get to the newly installed panel. Then while laying on my belly I had to flip the breaker back.

We got paid to move it!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Do you guys have a Rehab Sub Code in Philly?

Even still, the NEC specifically allows this install.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

I think your inspector is reading something into 110.26[E], exception that isn’t there, since it makes no reference to a specific location in the existing dwelling. 
I could see how 240.24[A] might be cited though, depending on the type of entry access to the crawl space and it’s location in relation to the panel, but can’t really tell anything from the pics. It looks like a relatively dry crawl space, so I don’t think the NEMA 1 enclosure should be an issue.

JM2cents


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Round of applause for MD Shunk for calm silence....:whistling2:


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

oldschool said:


> or call 911
> 
> or run outside
> 
> ...


The difference is the ability to turn off the electricity in a timely matter, which could save a life or two. 
Legal or not I would not have done that install, but I don't do resi and I can see why someone else would. The most important thing to me is safety, I dont get the warm and fuzzy from panel in a crawl space


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