# Oregon solar & wind & waves



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

We're obviously not a big state with a lot of resources but we've got a few interesting projects going on. There's a big solar project going in Southern Oregon, by Klamath Falls. There's another one up near Amity in Yamhill County; I know a dude working on that project. Here's an article:

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/oregons_largest_solar_project.html

We've got the SolarWorld plant up in Hillsboro and they supply most of the stuff used in the projects in the state. Keeps it kinda in-house, which I like.

There's also a ton of wind projects going on in the Columbia Gorge, which is an ideal place for them. Here's part of a wind farm near Arlington, OR:










Of interest to me is wave energy... Reedsport and Newport (my town) have been selected as two ideal spots for wave energy experimentation and possible commercial use in the future. That technology is kinda neat. Oregon State University is putting pretty heavy research into this stuff, and they have some demo models set up at their Marine Science Center visitor building here in town. They've set up some experimental wave buoys recently; they worked well but one of them sank :laughing: Anyway I think that'd be a pretty cool project to be involved in.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> We're obviously not a big state with a lot of resources but we've got a few interesting projects going on. There's a big solar project going in Southern Oregon, by Klamath Falls. There's another one up near Amity in Yamhill County; I know a dude working on that project. Here's an article:
> 
> http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/oregons_largest_solar_project.html
> 
> ...


 I heard alittle bit about this and think its a good ideal. Bout how much do you want to bet that we will have people saying they don't want to be looking at the buoys in there ocean.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

I am also very intrested in the wave and wind techonolgy.

I just think that the only drawback to that is voltage drop. Since DC is more subject to voltage drop the closer the power source is to the inverter the more efficent it is.

How do they get the power to land and then invert it to AC without losing it all to voltage drop?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> I heard alittle bit about this and think its a good ideal. Bout how much do you want to bet that we will have people saying they don't want to be looking at the buoys in there ocean.


Well there are. The local fishermen and crabbers are concerned about it, but they're a pretty reasonable bunch here in Newport and they're open to hearing the science behind it. There's also environmental concerns; the Surfrider Foundation has a chapter here and they're pretty active in ocean affairs. Most of the various groups and interests around here are willing to withhold their arguments until the research is more firm.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Well there are. The local fishermen and crabbers are concerned about it, but they're a pretty reasonable bunch here in Newport and they're open to hearing the science behind it. There's also environmental concerns; the Surfrider Foundation has a chapter here and they're pretty active in ocean affairs. Most of the various groups and interests around here are willing to withhold their arguments until the research is more firm.


 Its good to hear that they are willing to give it a try.


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't mind the use of solar, but the wind farms are an expensive waste of time. I've seen my fair share of them in the UK, and I can only recall an handful of them moving, not very quick either. I know zog will jump on this, but I'm pretty sure I have read articles where wind will never repay the cost it takes to install them in what ratio it produces electricity.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> I am also very intrested in the wave and wind techonolgy.
> 
> I just think that the only drawback to that is voltage drop. Since DC is more subject to voltage drop the closer the power source is to the inverter the more efficent it is.
> 
> How do they get the power to land and then invert it to AC without losing it all to voltage drop?


Not too sure on the buoy construction itself but all that crap might be on-board. The only shore site would be the control building and the line yard where it ties into the grid.

Washington state has good wave potential too but their coastline isn't as extensively developed as Oregon's, so they would need to put some investments in power infrastructure and transmission lines first.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> I am also very intrested in the wave and wind techonolgy.
> 
> I just think that the only drawback to that is voltage drop. Since DC is more subject to voltage drop the closer the power source is to the inverter the more efficent it is.
> 
> How do they get the power to land and then invert it to AC without losing it all to voltage drop?


 Why do you think it will produce DC? I was under the impression it will be AC?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Englishsparky said:


> I don't mind the use of solar, but the wind farms are an expensive waste of time. I've seen my fair share of them in the UK, and I can only recall an handful of them moving, not very quick either. I know zog will jump on this, but I'm pretty sure I have read articles where wind will never repay the cost it takes to install them in what ratio it produces electricity.


Clearly you haven't been to the Columbia Gorge :laughing:

Prior to the wind farm stuff it was known as the Windsurfing Capital of the World.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

erics37 said:


> Well there are. The local fishermen and crabbers are concerned about it, but they're a pretty reasonable bunch here in Newport and they're open to hearing the science behind it. There's also environmental concerns; the Surfrider Foundation has a chapter here and they're pretty active in ocean affairs. Most of the various groups and interests around here are willing to withhold their arguments until the research is more firm.


 
Yes I belong to the surfrider foundation here.

But also here the fisherman also want this because it will provide the fish with a habitat to live in.

They already take old boats and even subway cars from NYC and dump them off the coast to make artifical reefs, that is where the best fishing spots are.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Wireman191 said:


> Why do you think it will produce DC? I was under the impression it will be AC?


All the alternative energy methods produce electricty in the DC form, That is why they need inverters to transform it to AC.


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Clearly you haven't been to the Columbia Gorge :laughing:
> 
> Prior to the wind farm stuff it was known as the Windsurfing Capital of the World.


I haven't Eric, but how fast do they spin round there? The fastest I've seen them in a notoriously windy parts of the UK is around one revolution per minute more or less.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

What is the life span of a wind turbine that size and the cost of installing and removing it when it becomes obsolete..

Those are hidden costs you never see when guys are trying to sell that technology..

They are trying to put a giant wind farm off Jones Beach Long Island.. so far they have found LOTS of fuzzy math about the cost and payback.. :no:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Here is something I found


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> All the alternative energy methods produce electricty in the DC form, That is why they need inverters to transform it to AC.


 The only thing that directly produces DC is solar photovoltaic. Solar thermal, geothermal, biomass, and wind, rely on synchronous and asynchronous alternating current generators.

From what I've seen of tidal turbines, they'll be asynchronous AC generators just like wind. Don't know how wave turbines work.

-John


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Englishsparky said:


> I haven't Eric, but how fast do they spin round there? The fastest I've seen them in a notoriously windy parts of the UK is around one revolution per minute more or less.


Well I attended a code change class last November and the instructor has been involved a lot in wind farms. Apparently quite often they actually have to hit the brakes on the turbine because otherwise the tips of the blades will break the sound barrier.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Well I attended a code change class last November and the instructor has been involved a lot in wind farms. Apparently quite often they actually have to hit the brakes on the turbine because otherwise the tips of the blades will break the sound barrier.


Here is what happens when the breaking fails during high winds.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> The only thing that directly produces DC is solar photovoltaic. Solar thermal, geothermal, biomass, and wind, rely on synchronous and asynchronous alternating current generators.
> 
> From what I've seen of tidal turbines, they'll be asynchronous AC generators just like wind. Don't know how wave turbines work.
> 
> -John


Well there's a difference between tidal and wave power. Don't ask me the specifics, but there is :laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

B4T said:


> What is the life span of a wind turbine that size and the cost of installing and removing it when it becomes obsolete..
> 
> Those are hidden costs you never see when guys are trying to sell that technology..
> 
> They are trying to put a giant wind farm off Jones Beach Long Island.. so far they have found LOTS of fuzzy math about the cost and payback.. :no:


I have some wind books in the office, I'll dig up some facts later or tomorrow.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> The only thing that directly produces DC is solar photovoltaic. Solar thermal, geothermal, biomass, and wind, rely on synchronous and asynchronous alternating current generators.


I believe they generate in AC switch to DC and back to AC so that they can create a steady frequency even with changing RPM.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I believe they generate in AC switch to DC and back to AC so that they can create a steady frequency even with changing RPM.


Right, something like that... because the waves occur at varying frequencies and amplitudes, you can't make a nice steady 60 Hz cycle out of it.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

BBQ said:


> I believe they generate in AC switch to DC and back to AC so that they can create a steady frequency even with changing RPM.


 Why would it be any different from power produced at a dam? Breaking the magnetic line of flux will be the same, just a different physical force.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Right, something like that... because the waves occur at varying frequencies and amplitudes, you can't make a nice steady 60 Hz cycle out of it.



Well I was thinking about wind turbines but I imagine any random power source like wave or a tide would cause the generator to vary in RPM.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> Why would it be any different from power produced at a dam? Breaking the magnetic line of flux will be the same, just a different physical force.


Well at a dam they hold all the water back and then let it flow through at a steady, controlled rate to spin the turbines. You can't really control ocean waves like that.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Why would it be any different from power produced at a dam? Breaking the magnetic line of flux will be the same, just a different physical force.


I will be inserting my foot in my mouth on this topic I can see already:laughing: As long as I learn something I'm OK with it.:thumbsup:


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Well at a dam they hold all the water back and then let it flow through at a steady, controlled rate to spin the turbines. You can't really control ocean waves like that.


 I guess they do have control of the amount of water going threw the gates. Good point:thumbup:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> Why would it be any different from power produced at a dam? Breaking the magnetic line of flux will be the same, just a different physical force.


My guess, and it is only a guess, is that with a typical damn and hydro power plant that they control the generators speed with a combination of water flow and load applied to the generator so that it remains a steady RPM and a steady frequency that matches the grid.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> What is the life span of a wind turbine that size and the cost of installing and removing it when it becomes obsolete..
> 
> Those are hidden costs you never see when guys are trying to sell that technology..
> 
> They are trying to put a giant wind farm off Jones Beach Long Island.. so far they have found LOTS of fuzzy math about the cost and payback.. :no:


I am already branded as negative so here you go. :thumbsup:

A Problem With Wind Power


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

My mistake _Rob, _I reread your post and see what you're getting at. I agree, the generators do go through a converter, to the best of my knowledge none of those have DC transmission. In our wind farms the converters are located in the turbine bulb, AC in AC out, so everything coming out of the tower is 60Hz.

_Wireman,_ for a hydro generator the connection to the grid is what keeps the generators precisely at 60Hz, but if we didn't regulate the water flow the generator power-factor would be all over the map. Because the amount of water pressure against the turbine changes relatively slowly, mechanical governors can easily compensate for this and keep the power factor where it needs to be.

I think there are some synchronous wind farms that try to operate this way as well, but I don't think the payback is as good as asynchronous technology because there are periods where the machines are almost motorizing when the wind is low.

-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I am already branded as negative so here you go. :thumbsup:
> 
> A Problem With Wind Power


That was a good read and I could not find anything good in the story about wind power unless you owned the company installing this crap..

Weren't they going to put a wind farm off Cape Cod that Ted Kennedy was fighting against but was approved after his death?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Weren't they going to put a wind farm off Cape Cod that Ted Kennedy was fighting against but was approved after his death?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Wind


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

erics37 said:


> Of interest to me is wave energy... Reedsport and Newport (my town) have been selected as two ideal spots for wave energy experimentation and possible commercial use in the future. That technology is kinda neat. Oregon State University is putting pretty heavy research into this stuff, and they have some demo models set up at their Marine Science Center visitor building here in town. They've set up some experimental wave buoys recently; they worked well but one of them sank :laughing: Anyway I think that'd be a pretty cool project to be involved in.


That technology is interesting but I favor technologies that have micro-generation capabilities like micro hydro, solar, wind and fuel cells.


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## Justin L. (Sep 6, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> All the alternative energy methods produce electricty in the DC form, That is why they need inverters to transform it to AC.


"alternative" energy should produce "alternating" current.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Wind


This says it all.._ In 2010, the Massachusetts Attorney General's office estimates that Cape Wind will ultimately cost $2.5 billion.* Costs of the electricity generated by the project are estimated to be double the 2010 price of traditional fossil fuels.[63]*_


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> This says it all.._. *Costs of the electricity generated by the project are estimated to be double the 2010 price of traditional fossil fuels.[63]*_


 You quote it like it's a surprise. It's pretty much an accepted fact that any form of non-fossil fuel generation will be more expensive than fossil-fuel generation. I say this as someone who makes his living in non-fossil fuel generation.

Coal fired plants have had a hundred years to get the infrastructure and technology bases set up in order to produce cheap energy. Baseload green generation is a pretty new technology and suffers from the same hurdles that all new technology must overcome before it can be widespread and cheap.

-John


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Big John said:


> You quote it like it's a surprise. It's pretty much an accepted fact that any form of non-fossil fuel generation will be more expensive than fossil-fuel generation. I say this as someone who makes his living in non-fossil fuel generation.
> 
> Coal fired plants have had a hundred years to get the infrastructure and technology bases set up in order to produce cheap energy. Baseload green generation is a pretty new technology and suffers from the same hurdles that all new technology must overcome before it can be widespread and cheap.
> 
> -John


Double the price is a hell of a lot more than "more expensive".. it is amazing these wind farms get approved in the first place.. :no:


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## Dantes (Sep 11, 2011)

Hello. How much does it cost to run Grand Coulee Dam? 

It must cost as much as running seven nukes, because that is how much power comes off from Grand Coulee Dam. 7000 megawatts. That is why there is so much power intensive industrial plants going in at Moses Lake, Washington.

Sorry, I don't see running a giant dam costing as much as seven reactor sites......


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

B4T said:


> Double the price is a hell of a lot more than "more expensive".. it is amazing these wind farms get approved in the first place.. :no:


 Gotta start somewhere. It's ridiculous to sit there and say "We'll only build when the price is competitive." If you never build, it will _never_ be competitive.

-John


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## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

If it's any consolation, least these alternative energy will hopefully make electricity cheaper in our life times (or at least some of ours). I'm pretty sure I stated this on another thread. These sources are in there infancy, they may have a way to go but at least if something goes wrong with this it won't be another chenobyle(spelling?) or that place in Japan.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Dantes said:


> Hello. How much does it cost to run Grand Coulee Dam?
> 
> It must cost as much as running seven nukes, because that is how much power comes off from Grand Coulee Dam. 7000 megawatts. That is why there is so much power intensive industrial plants going in at Moses Lake, Washington.
> 
> Sorry, I don't see running a giant dam costing as much as seven reactor sites......


 Yes, all the dams over here I think are the best route for our power generation. Its just convincing the fish people that!


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Wireman191 said:


> Yes, all the dams over here I think are the best route for our power generation. Its just convincing the fish people that!


What do you mean by that?

Dams make excellent habitat for fish which in turn gives fisherman places to fish

Unless you meant PETA

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I think he it talking about migratory fish. Dams are obviously a huge stumbling block to swimming upstream.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Don't many new dams incorporate some kind of step system so that migratory fish can get upstream to spawn?


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## Skinnyelectrician (Aug 10, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> I think he it talking about migratory fish. Dams are obviously a huge stumbling block to swimming upstream.


Exactly. Not to mention Damns change the entire ecology and habitat of a water way. It's a tough call, being a fisherman and some one who appreciates the out doors, it's a hard pill to swallow.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Skinnyelectrician said:


> Exactly. Not to mention Damns change the entire ecology and habitat of a water way. It's a tough call, being a fisherman and some one who appreciates the out doors, it's a hard pill to swallow.


Absolutely agree. It's a double edge sword.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> Dams make excellent habitat for fish which in turn gives fisherman places to fish
> 
> ...


 Ya those guys.  They have a fish latter on most all of them now, and are putting in hatchery's everywhere, I don't see what there problem is, We can't build any more dams but they seem to be the best a cleanest way to generate.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Speedy Petey said:


> Don't many new dams incorporate some kind of step system so that migratory fish can get upstream to spawn?


 Aye. On small dams you have what's called a "fish ladder" which is just a series of switchbacks that allow the water to flow down a shallow grade that fish can swim up.

On bigger hydros where that's impractical they actually use "fish elevators." Exactly what it sounds like: A huge elevator that lifts buckets full of fish over the dam.

-John


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

"Fish ladder". That's it!
I knew I saw that somewhere like on Discovery Channel or something.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Here's a news story about the fish elevator on the Conowingo hydro project in Pennsylvania. Incidentally, that's an awesome hydro to tour. Anyone near by should look into it.



 -John


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Side note, I live about 40 miles from Grand Coulee:thumbup: Anyone ever comes this way you gotta check out the laser light show there on the fourth of July!


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## Dantes (Sep 11, 2011)

Wireman191 said:


> Side note, I live about 40 miles from Grand Coulee:thumbup: Anyone ever comes this way you gotta check out the laser light show there on the fourth of July!


Who you work for? I thought all the Moses Lake work was out of 112.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

Dantes said:


> Who you work for? I thought all the Moses Lake work was out of 112.


No thats LU 191


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> What do you mean by that?
> 
> Dams make excellent habitat for fish which in turn gives fisherman places to fish
> 
> ...


Salmon runs get affected.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Salmon runs get affected.


And they built a nice ladder for the salmon in seattle. Made it a tourist area where you can view the salmon going up river. Of course they did that for the locks.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Salmon runs get affected.


 They still fish for salmon every year five or six dams upstream from where they start, Hell I think if they want to they can make it to Canada!


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> They still fish for salmon every year five or six dams upstream from where they start, Hell I think if they want to they can make it to Canada!


True but still a lot of smelt get ground up in turbines. Then there's the sea lion issue at Bonneville.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Here is a cool technology they are going to start building for cooling the offices in downtown Honolulu next year. Run a pipe about a half mile out from Kewalo Basin and you get to the cliff edge. From there it goes down , down, down cause we are just sitting on a mountain top. What they are going to do is pump up cold water from the bottom. It is under such high pressure it turns to instant steam when they let it loose at the top. It gets used to cool off the buildings and then let back to the ocean as seawater. They do this already for some agriculture operations at Kona on the Big Island, but over there the edge of the abyss is about 300 feet out off the beach.


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## Wireman191 (Aug 28, 2011)

erics37 said:


> True but still a lot of smelt get ground up in turbines. Then there's the sea lion issue at Bonneville.


 I guess it comes down to what are we going to sacrifice. Cause no matter what we do someone is going to grip about it. We need to find the least obtrusive, and practical way to produce power. IMO that is power generated from dams. Find better ways to handle the fish. 
Do you realize that if the dams were torn down it would wipe out some citys.... I'm not sure if you are for them or against them, but they are the most practical, renewable, cheap way to produce power.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Dams are awesome. Testament to our ablility to harness rivers. Controls flooding. Provides clean, renewable power. Fish take a hit but other fish move in when the other fish die off.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Wireman191 said:


> I guess it comes down to what are we going to sacrifice. Cause no matter what we do someone is going to grip about it. We need to find the least obtrusive, and practical way to produce power. IMO that is power generated from dams. Find better ways to handle the fish.
> Do you realize that if the dams were torn down it would wipe out some citys.... I'm not sure if you are for them or against them, but they are the most practical, renewable, cheap way to produce power.


No I certainly am indeed an advocate of hydro power, I'm glad to live in an area that has that resource available to it. The fish issue needs to get resolved but I think it's best to let the scientists figure that one out, not the politicians.



nitro71 said:


> Dams are awesome. Testament to our ablility to harness rivers. Controls flooding. Provides clean, renewable power. Fish take a hit but other fish move in when the other fish die off.


Indeed, but it's not quite as simple as that. I mean there's the whole situation with species occupying an ecological niche - which things like salmon do - and if they're wiped out or take a big hit, it will have a ripple effect on the rest of the food web, including humans. Fish species aren't necessarily interchangeable, so I think it's an important consideration to take into account. I wouldn't want to sacrifice hydroelectric power, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the wellbeing of a species either.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Since I started working on green generation I've been amazed: No matter what type of "green" generators we build people oppose them. 

These same people go home and turn on their microwaves and televisions and use the electricity we produce.

We can't have it both ways. And since we aren't giving up electricity, all we can do is try to mitigate the damage that we cause while producing it. There's gotta be a trade-off.

-John


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Big John said:


> Since I started working on green generation I've been amazed: No matter what type of "green" generators we build people oppose them.
> 
> These same people go home and turn on their microwaves and televisions and use the electricity we produce.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Bill Nye needs to restart his science show, but for grown-ups. I'm dead serious. There's too many people out there that simply don't understand basic scientific concepts about how energy works. Not just electricity, but energy in general. Bill Nye has been a scientific commentator for TV news stations for a while now, and he is extremely adept at taking complex scientific topics and translating them into an accessible form which the public can digest. Anyway, I digress.

Back on track: Woody Guthrie was commissioned by the U.S. government to write a bunch of songs about the Northwest and the hydro projects going on back in the '30s. He rules:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Here is a cool technology they are going to start building for cooling the offices in downtown Honolulu next year. Run a pipe about a half mile out from Kewalo Basin and you get to the cliff edge. From there it goes down , down, down cause we are just sitting on a mountain top. What they are going to do is pump up cold water from the bottom. It is under such high pressure it turns to instant steam when they let it loose at the top. It gets used to cool off the buildings and then let back to the ocean as seawater. They do this already for some agriculture operations at Kona on the Big Island, but over there the edge of the abyss is about 300 feet out off the beach.


Do you have a link to more information about this process? I don't understand how cold water at high pressure can become steam?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Yeah. Bill Nye needs to restart his science show, but for grown-ups. I'm dead serious. There's too many people out there that simply don't understand basic scientific concepts about how energy works. Not just electricity, but energy in general. Bill Nye has been a scientific commentator for TV news stations for a while now, and he is extremely adept at taking complex scientific topics and translating them into an accessible form which the public can digest. Anyway, I digress.
> 
> Back on track: Woody Guthrie was commissioned by the U.S. government to write a bunch of songs about the Northwest and the hydro projects going on back in the '30s. He rules:
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sH6CcsTafw">YouTube Link</a>


My wife gets a magazine," Mary Janes Farm" an article call "Built to Last" the last paragraph reads "Across town, before the sun rises and while the Aragons are still sleeping, their pool pump quietly kicks into gear, pulling energy from the panels to heat and clean the pool... People have no idea how energy is produced, or consumed.


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## Demac (Apr 28, 2010)

Wireman191 said:


> ...
> 
> We need to find the least obtrusive, and practical way to produce power.
> 
> ...


My opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power

And to head off the inevitable finger pointing toward Japan, New York, or Chernobyl, all of those were failures in something other then the actual process. When your front wheel comes off your car at 75mph do you decide that automobiles are inherently unsafe and should be banned, or do you sue the tire company that didn't tighten the lug nuts? When a pilot falls asleep and the plane crashes do you decide that air travel/shipping is just not worth it anymore, or do you blame a pilot who fell asleep? Heck, with as many people who die each year from accidental electrocution maybe we should just ban any use of electricity...

Eric, when I was living up around Florence and Waldport I remember hearing a lot about the wave energy stuff down toward Reedsport. If I recall correctly they were actually looking at Gardiner area, and were looking at buying the property that the old Weyerhaeuser mill sat on? Did any of that ever get moving or are they still standing around 'thinking' about it. I had kinda hoped to see some of that but left before any of it was in place.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

When your front wheel comes off your car at 75mph it doesn't start a nuclear winter. When a pilot falls asleep the only fallout is the plane.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

From the design, construction, management and operation of the Chernobyl reactor, just about everything that could possibly be done to allow such a disaster, was allowed to happen. Using that as an example to oppose nuclear power is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute to prove skydiving is dangerous.

I agree nuclear is our best stop-gap measure, or even permanent solution, while trying to ween off fossil fuels. And I absolutely think it can be done safely. I just don't think the political climate in this country exists to allow that to happen.

-John


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> I agree nuclear is our best stop-gap measure, or even permanent solution, while trying to ween off fossil fuels. And I absolutely think it can be done safely.


Even though I would be unhappy to have one in my backyard I think what you say is true. 




> I just don't think the political climate in this country exists to allow that to happen.



I think that will change as electrical rates climb.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Demac said:


> Eric, when I was living up around Florence and Waldport I remember hearing a lot about the wave energy stuff down toward Reedsport. If I recall correctly they were actually looking at Gardiner area, and were looking at buying the property that the old Weyerhaeuser mill sat on? Did any of that ever get moving or are they still standing around 'thinking' about it. I had kinda hoped to see some of that but left before any of it was in place.


You are correct; the Reedsport project began a several-year permitting process in 2007 and it's still in the works. They're actually planning a wave farm there, not just a buoy or two. Gardiner is a perfect place to put it, too. The old mill was demolished a couple years ago, but there is still the big ol' effluent pipeline sticking out into the water from the mill site that would make a perfect pre-existing chase for the submarine cables. Plus there's still a power utility yard right there that used to supply the mill's service. Everything's all ready to go on that site, they just need to get their approval.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Hey y'all, this isn't a nuclear thread, it'll get off track quick if we go that route :no:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Okely dokely.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Demac here's a current news article on the Reedsport project. Looks like it got delayed a bit (surprise surprise):

http://www.sustainablebusinessoregon.com/articles/2011/08/opt-delays-reedsport-wave-energy-project.html


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> I have some wind books in the office, I'll dig up some facts later or tomorrow.


 That's what I was gonna do before I left this morning.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> That's what I was gonna do before I left this morning.


Here is a list of wind turbine failures
http://www.windbyte.co.uk/safety.html


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Zog said:


> Here is a list of wind turbine failures
> http://www.windbyte.co.uk/safety.html


Wind generation isn't all accidents and catastrophic failures. It does have a positive impact.

http://www.mge.com/images/PDF/Brochures/WindPower/BenefitsofWind.pdf

http://vwec.cisat.jmu.edu/Fact Sheets & Presentations/Fact Sheets/wpa_factsheet_series.pdf

http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/pdfs/econ_clemmer.pdf

http://www.revermont.org/windfarm_benefits.pdf

http://knol.google.com/k/wind-turbines/benefits-of-using-wind-energy/25fjwptfb1ke6/8#

http://www.canwea.ca/wind-energy/index7_e.php


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Zog said:


> Here is a list of wind turbine failures....http://www.windbyte.co.uk/safety.html


 And here is a list of nuclear accidents. 

To be fair, I am pro nuclear. I just think that listing that like you did is a cheap scare tactic and not really productive.

I think it's silly to discount the value of wind and solar this early in the game. If they can't stand on their own, then time will show that.

-John


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Hmm, didn't mean for it to come across like that, just pointing out the high failure rates. I used to work on a lot of wind farm projects and they has a lot of problems. One failed and almost killed one of my crew, the turbine blade flew off and destroyed his truck.


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## Demac (Apr 28, 2010)

Big John said:


> And here is a list of nuclear accidents.
> 
> To be fair, I am pro nuclear. I just think that listing that like you did is a cheap scare tactic and not really productive.
> 
> ...


I'm not necessarily against wind or solar either, and I'm definitely pro nuclear. How long, ballpark guess, until wind and/or solar become viable? I'm not convinced that any of them will, by themselves. But I could be wrong.

I've wondered instead about each building being built to sustain itself. Why does power have to be generated in gigantic quantities and then transmitted to each place that needs it? For example, why can't a building be built that has wind generation built into it, solar generation built into it, possibly geothermal, small reactors, etc. Is it feasible to make a building self sustaining using a mixture of technologies instead of trying to find the holy grail 'fix-all' energy source?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Demac said:


> I'm not necessarily against wind or solar either, and I'm definitely pro nuclear. How long, ballpark guess, until wind and/or solar become viable? I'm not convinced that any of them will, by themselves. But I could be wrong.
> 
> I've wondered instead about each building being built to sustain itself. Why does power have to be generated in gigantic quantities and then transmitted to each place that needs it? For example, why can't a building be built that has wind generation built into it, solar generation built into it, possibly geothermal, small reactors, etc. Is it feasible to make a building self sustaining using a mixture of technologies instead of trying to find the holy grail 'fix-all' energy source?


Well I think that is the idea (Except the small reactors part, even I don't like that idea) for residential and commercial, but I don't see that as possible for large users like steel mills, paper mills, factories, etc...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Demac said:


> ...I'm not convinced that any of them will, by themselves...For example, why can't a building be built that has wind generation built into it, solar generation built into it, possibly geothermal, small reactors, etc....


 Honestly, I think that is where wind and solar will eventually shine. I think using huge chunks of land for solar farms is probably a waste of space. But I think if we get to the point where shingle-style panels can be readily installed on houses, it will be a huge benefit.

If we continue to improve the efficiency of the average home we may see a point where most of the load could be carried by rooftop solar and micro wind. 

The trick would also be to upgrade transmission to the point where cities with high wind/solar efficiency could export excess power to those without, but that's a ways off to be sure.

-John


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

Demac said:


> I'm not necessarily against wind or solar either, and I'm definitely pro nuclear. How long, ballpark guess, until wind and/or solar become viable? I'm not convinced that any of them will, by themselves. But I could be wrong.
> 
> I've wondered instead about each building being built to sustain itself. Why does power have to be generated in gigantic quantities and then transmitted to each place that needs it? For example, why can't a building be built that has wind generation built into it, solar generation built into it, possibly geothermal, small reactors, etc. Is it feasible to make a building self sustaining using a mixture of technologies instead of trying to find the holy grail 'fix-all' energy source?


Its viable now.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Big John said:


> Honestly, I think that is where wind and solar will eventually shine. I think using huge chunks of land for solar farms is probably a waste of space. But I think if we get to the point where shingle-style panels can be readily installed on houses, it will be a huge benefit.
> 
> If we continue to improve the efficiency of the average home we may see a point where most of the load could be carried by rooftop solar and micro wind.
> 
> ...


I saw a show about solar roads, the asphalt is actually a solar collector, pretty cool stuff. Our roads need to be rebuilt anyways, can you imagine our highway system also being our power system? Prety cool, not sure about expense and relibility but what a great concept. :thumbup:


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Well there's a difference between tidal and wave power. Don't ask me the specifics, but there is :laughing:


 
Wireman 191 posted what is typically wave generation. Though the options for recieving the up and down energy of the waves are varied.

The tidal power is more often something like a wind generator but underwater. There was (is?) one in a river in NYC I think. As the tide comes in it spins one way and the other on the way out.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...s-GaCg&usg=AFQjCNHorp2Cely0JePM_4OzdO8A7_eRBA

many possibilities, hardest part imo is not letting the tremendous power of the ocean, river or whatever in a storm destroy the installation.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> Wireman 191 posted what is typically wave generation. Though the options for recieving the up and down energy of the waves are varied.
> 
> The tidal power is more often something like a wind generator but underwater. There was (is?) one in a river in NYC I think. As the tide comes in it spins one way and the other on the way out.
> 
> ...


Yeah we get some pretty gnarley storms out here in the winter. But that's what the testing phase is for. One of the test buoys they did a couple years ago sank :laughing:


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

*Wave - Tidal , NO JOKE*

I hope i have this right ? This site is the stuff mon !

Renuable-UK.org 







Donald " Outstanding Citizen of the Conch Republic "


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Do you have a link to more information about this process? I don't understand how cold water at high pressure can become steam?


Macmikeman may be talking about Ocean Thermal Energy
Conversion. 

Here's an article that mentions the Makai Ocean Engineering 10MW project in Hawaii:
http://www.economist.com/node/21542381

Hopefully the link is still fresh. If not, there are plenty of write-ups to
google.

It is basically a very big heat pump plus.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

rexowner said:


> Macmikeman may be talking about Ocean Thermal Energy
> Conversion.
> 
> Here's an article that mentions the Makai Ocean Engineering 10MW project in Hawaii:
> ...


Yes , but Don was right, I had the method somewhat off kilter. The water comes up cold, and they use that cold water to cool fresh water which is used in the chillers. Funny part is the very evening before I made that post, there was a guy on the local npr channel who made the statement I did , and I just repeated it without giving it a whole lot of thought. Yea, but Don picked up on something right away that was a ridiculous statement, and I am glad he did, before I had a chance to spread it more. Thanks Don.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Actually I just read through this entire thread again.

Can y'all believe everyone posting on it so far has been congenial, informative, and receptive? :blink:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Actually I just read through this entire thread again.

Can y'all believe everyone posting on it so far has been congenial, informative, and receptive? :blink: Maybe it's because winter hadn't set in yet :laughing:


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## James428 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hmmmm.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

*Wanna see a BAD BOY ?*

BAD BOY

http://www.marineturbines.com/


Sorry about Renewable ...but it can be found here. That is the 
first Tidal & Wave Site ! Orkney and such.

http://www.bwea.com/marine/devices.html


Donald " Outstanding Citizen of the Conch Republic !


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