# Man Cave 60 hz noise



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

You touched a string and silenced ground?
Hmmmmm


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

microwave, 240v, hot dog.......


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> You touched a string and silenced ground?
> Hmmmmm


Yes to be more clear, as I've been dealing with amps and guitars and such for around 45 years, many amps have a polarity switch in the older days of tube amps and before there were grounded sockets, where if you heard a hum, you switched the polarity and that would help.

Todays amps are mostly solid state transformer coupled types. You also have Humbucker pickups and Single coil pickups. Single coil tend to be noisy by their nature. 

So besides the single coil bass I have (Carvin) I plugged in my humbucker guitar to the same amp. And to a second guitar amp I have. Of course the humbucker guitar is more quiet. Add to that, with the cable unplugged from the amp input, it's silent. 

I'm also suspicious now that the Carvin bass has a poor ground connection inside the guitar (I bought that guitar used a year ago and only got to play it a couple of times since). Anyway a poorly wired and ground connection inside can cause the problem I also think I have a couple of older faulty guitar cables that also can cause noise. I switched to another one that seems to be doing better with that bass amp, but the bass guitar is still pretty noisy vs my humbucker 6 string guitar. 

Now that doesn't answer the question though is the way I wired the ground to neutral in the sub panel acceptable? Or does the ground and neutral have to be fully separate in there and only bus barred in the primary panel?


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

macmikeman said:


> microwave, 240v, hot dog.......


I guess you are joking? No microwave in the cave. Hot dog's sound good.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

They are joking. You need to take this concern over to this site's sister site @ www.DIYChatroom.com where there are plenty of people who will help you out.

Sorry but this site is restricted to electrical industry professionals only. I know you're an engineer but this is clearly a DIY project; not allowed on this site.

Good luck with those guitars!


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

A service call from a licensed Electrician will solve your problem, don't be cheap when it comes to Rock and Roll !!


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

dronai said:


> A service call from a licensed Electrician will solve your problem, don't be cheap when it comes to Rock and Roll !!


Well I think my primary question is pretty straight forward. Is it ok to tie the neutral and ground together on the secondary panel since it's bus shorted on the primary master panel already? We are talking about 12 inches of run between the primary breaker panel and the secondary breaker panel. I have a hard time believing that short run would cause a noise issue. 

Actually, at about 9 pm CST, I went out and plugged in 6 string guitar with a new cable. With new bass amp I turned Master volume all the way up and lowered gain, which is really preamp volume and the noise is much less. So I think the AC power at the cave is ok.

But I still plan to do an acid test and move the bass amp to my primary residence and see if there is a difference in 60 hz noise between there and the cave. If there isn't then it's not the primary AC.


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

Ok. I just read an article that clarifies this and it agrees with what you are saying from a safety point of view. The neutral and ground at the "service" panel must be separated so it can't create a sneak path in the event of some external fault (like water shorting).

No problem for me to separate the grounds from the neutral. I will do that tomorrow. But I'm dubious that this is what would be causing 60 cycle noise at guitar amps. Just a safety precaution.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Whenever I picked up an electric guitar nothing but painful loud sounds emanated from said instrument. Musta been grounds on the nut bar...........


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

txjeff said:


> Yes to be more clear, as I've been dealing with amps and guitars and such for around 45 years, many amps have a polarity switch in the older days of tube amps and before there were grounded sockets, where if you heard a hum, you switched the polarity and that would help.
> 
> Todays amps are mostly solid state transformer coupled types. You also have Humbucker pickups and Single coil pickups. Single coil tend to be noisy by their nature.
> 
> ...


Woo there,,,, I’m not a retired EE and musically endowed. 

Do you have a Readers Digest version of what you wrote? 
Include pictures and receive a like.


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> Woo there,,,, I’m not a retired EE and musically endowed.
> 
> Do you have a Readers Digest version of what you wrote?
> Include pictures and receive a like.


I know I gave a lot of details. Of course I was compressing what I've been working on through the past 2 months mostly by myself into a couple of paragraphs. I think this article spells it out pretty well. If you look at the picture of the service box, however, you will see that it has both a ground and neutral bar. Whereas the service box I bought has only one bar for neutral. 
Anyway, I decided, per the below article, that in the service box I shouldn't have tied the grounds and neutrals together on the single bar in spite of the master breaker box shorting ground to neutral with a bus bar. So I plan to remove the grounds from the service panel neutral bar and simply tie them together, with a single ground wire coming from the master panel tied to them. 
btw, since I'm new here, the forum won't let me post links or images until I have at least 20 posts so sorry about that.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

txjeff said:


> I know I gave a lot of details. Of course I was compressing what I've been working on through the past 2 months mostly by myself into a couple of paragraphs. I think this article spells it out pretty well. If you look at the picture of the service box, however, you will see that it has both a ground and neutral bar. Whereas the service box I bought has only one bar for neutral.
> Anyway, I decided, per the below article, that in the service box I shouldn't have tied the grounds and neutrals together on the single bar in spite of the master breaker box shorting ground to neutral with a bus bar. So I plan to remove the grounds from the service panel neutral bar and simply tie them together, with a single ground wire coming from the master panel tied to them.
> btw, since I'm new here, the forum won't let me post links or images until I have at least 20 posts so sorry about that.


Me thinks you should call an electrician or hit the DYI site.


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> Me thinks you should call an electrician or hit the DYI site.


I already have a thread on DIY site. And I think I have this problem resolved now. 

Really all it boiled down to was separating the ground wire from the primary breaker box from the neutral bar at the service panel I put in. As the article (I can't show you) described. And I did that this morning). 

And my noise issues are going away now as I am working on the guitars/cables and amps getting them working the way they should fully. 

So I appreciate the comments and please consider this a closed thread.


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## txjeff (Nov 18, 2019)

Wirenuting said:


> Me thinks you should call an electrician or hit the DYI site.


You might be interested to hear that I brought my amp into my house and got the same hum with the Carvin guitar. So in a way, I'm happy that I, as a side note, did resolve separating my ground from neutral on the service panel, but it wasn't the cause of my noise. 

I took the cover off the back of the Carvin bass guitar and lo and behold, a ground wire was completely severed from the pickups that attaches to the back of the potentiometer, ergo the hum and grounding noise that would go away when I touched the metal pot knobs with my fingers (making me the ground). LOL. Yaye. Problem solved.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

I apologize, I came to this late.
Technically, what you did the first time was a foul, how-ever as you found out, this technical foul wouldn't cause your problem.


Good for you for trying, and figuring it out on your own. 


+1

Now go jam....


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## Lightsmith (Oct 8, 2010)

A long cable can easily become a very effective antenna, which is why on data cable there is often a "drip" line attached which can be grounded. You do not have this with the cable for your guitar or mics. This is something that those with an analog background with data wiring would understand but that would escape 99% of electricians. 

The cables are likely picking up the emissions from the lights in the room and you can easily verify this by turning off the lights and seeing if the humming noise goes away. If it does than switch to dimmable LED lights in your cave. A possible quick and cheap fix is to buy a bunch of ferrite beads and clamp them over the cables right where they plug into the amp or mixers. This assumes you have already checked the insides of the plugs to be sure that there is not a poor wire connection. 

As our electronic devices have become more powerful with the use of higher frequency chips they have also become much dirtier with respect to EMF noise.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Lightsmith said:


> A long cable can easily become a very effective antenna, which is why on data cable there is often a "drip" line attached which can be grounded. You do not have this with the cable for your guitar or mics. This is something that those with an analog background with data wiring would understand but that would escape 99% of electricians.
> 
> The cables are likely picking up the emissions from the lights in the room and you can easily verify this by turning off the lights and seeing if the humming noise goes away. If it does than switch to dimmable LED lights in your cave. A possible quick and cheap fix is to buy a bunch of ferrite beads and clamp them over the cables right where they plug into the amp or mixers. This assumes you have already checked the insides of the plugs to be sure that there is not a poor wire connection.
> 
> As our electronic devices have become more powerful with the use of higher frequency chips they have also become much dirtier with respect to EMF noise.


Don't become a sound man for any band ... anywhere :vs_whistle:

The good looking guy over at the DIY site told him to separate the ground and neutral, and look at the shield wire in his Bass guitar. He did and found the shield wire disconnected from one of the pots, and all is fine now :biggrin:

If you actually read thru the post, you would have seen this anyways ... but thanks for chiming in.


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