# Outside hot tub review



## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

*This should help..*

http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> Went and looked at a hot tub install yesterday.
> 
> Residential, Outside on pavers.
> 
> ...


1) Equipotential bonding grid required. You must install one or elevate the tub off the ground.

2) Insulated ground (EGC)

3) GFCI protected.

4) Disconnect.

5) Convenience receptacle.

6) Disconnect within sight and mind distances.

I like to use one of these. You just pull a non-GFCI feeder and your done.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't think the utility outlet is required. 680.22(A)(3) says it is required for permanently installed pools. A self contained spa doesn't meet that definition unless you bury it.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

nitro71 said:


> I don't think the utility outlet is required. 680.22(A)(3) says it is required for permanently installed pools. A self contained spa doesn't meet that definition unless you bury it.


I put one in when I did one, because there wasn't one on the house. Popped two 1/2 grc's up out of the trench into a bell box, sleeved UF in one of the GRC's.

Also, that connecticut electric thing is crap. They continually buzz after a while, and can be heard inside the house easily. I went with a siemens spa pack after doing a conn electric spa pack.

Nice thing about the siemens spa pack, is you can pop in a CB and tap off the hot tub feeder for your conv. recpt.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> I don't think the utility outlet is required. 680.22(A)(3) says it is required for permanently installed pools. A self contained spa doesn't meet that definition unless you bury it.


Nitro Article 680 part IV is for spas which tells us to use section I and IV, however art. 680.42 for outdoor installations says we use the provisions of Parts I and II. Since the required recep. is in part II for pool then it is req. for an outdoor hot tub or spa.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

They need to re-write that whole section. Why even mention permanently installed if it's for all pools?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> They need to re-write that whole section. Why even mention permanently installed if it's for all pools?


It is not for all pools but outdoor spas/hot tubs are treated almost the same as pools.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> I don't think the utility outlet is required. 680.22(A)(3) says it is required for permanently installed pools. A self contained spa doesn't meet that definition unless you bury it.


Not trying to be a smart ass, but they did put that receptacle in that GFCI disconnect for a reason. It's required.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Not trying to be a smart ass, but they did put that receptacle in that GFCI disconnect for a reason. It's required.


There are a lot of different hardware configurations that you can buy. Doesn't mean all are required for all types of installations. I'm just not a monkey see, monkey do type of electrician.


----------



## uber stein (Aug 20, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> 1) Equipotential bonding grid required. You must install one or elevate the tub off the ground.


What is meant by equipotential bonding grid and how would it be installed?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> There are a lot of different hardware configurations that you can buy. Doesn't mean all are required for all types of installations. I'm just not a monkey see, monkey do type of electrician.


Well, don't install it then. I can only show you the code article that requires it. What you do with that is up to you. IMO, it is required but you can wait till someone important tells you.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

uber stein said:


> What is meant by equipotential bonding grid and how would it be installed?


You need to read article 680.26 for the epb grid.


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Well, don't install it then. I can only show you the code article that requires it. What you do with that is up to you. IMO, it is required but you can wait till someone important tells you.


There is already a GFCI outlet about 7' away from the tub. I could install another though..


----------



## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> There is already a GFCI outlet about 7' away from the tub. I could install another though..


Don't have my code book handy, but I'm pretty sure that's a violation. It needs to be between 10 and 20 feet from the inside wall.

When I bid outdoor spas, I tell the homeowner that it'll be done to code or done by somebody else. I'm not interested in a possible negligent homicide conviction in order to make less money!:thumbsup:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Split Bolt said:


> Don't have my code book handy, but I'm pretty sure that's a violation. It needs to be between 10 and 20 feet from the inside wall.


It is not less than 6' and not more than 20'. In the 2005 NEC it was 10' but it changed in 2008.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> There is already a GFCI outlet about 7' away from the tub. I could install another though..


7 foot away is perfect. You don't need another one. You do need the grid. Or build a deck for it (tub) to sit on. Your choice.


----------



## Split Bolt (Aug 30, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> It is not less than 6' and not more than 20'. In the 2005 NEC it was 10' but it changed in 2008.


Thanks Dennis & John! As you know, we're living in the past here in Virginia!:thumbsup:


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> 7 foot away is perfect. You don't need another one. You do need the grid. Or build a deck for it (tub) to sit on.


You got to consider the intent of the code and the receptacle requirement. People want their radio, but the cord is 4' long, so it can't sit on the rim of the tub.

That's where the Mike Holt illustrated guide comes in handy. I still look at my 2002 illustrated guide to the code.

About the equipotential plane... If they pour a slab, I'd make sure to have a rebar stubbed up right inside the tub access. I've also heard about mandated bonding of metal railings and such. Double check for bonding lugs internal to the tub that may not have been bonded, I remember that being a #8 solid.


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> 1) Equipotential bonding grid required. You must install one or *elevate the tub off the ground.*
> 
> 2) Insulated ground (EGC)
> 
> ...


Even with the tub elevated an equipotential bonding grid is required.

*680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
* 
*(B) Bonded Parts.
**
(2) Perimeter Surfaces.​*​​​​The perimeter surface shall extend for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and shall include unpaved surfaces as well as poured concrete and other types of paving. Bonding to perimeter surfaces shall be provided as specified in
680.26(B)(2)(a) or (2)(b) and shall be attached to the pool reinforcing steel or copper conductor grid at a minimum of four (4) points uniformly spaced around the perimeter of
the pool. For nonconductive pool shells, bonding at four points shall not be required.
(a) _Structural Reinforcing Steel. _Structural reinforcing steel shall be bonded in accordance with 680.26(B)(1)(a).
(*b) *_*Alternate Means. *_*Where structural reinforcing steel is not available or is encapsulated in a nonconductive compound, a copper conductor(s) shall be utilized where the following requirements are met:*
*(1) At least one minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper conductor shall be provided.*
*(2) The conductors shall follow the contour of the perimeter surface.*
*(3) Only listed splices shall be permitted.*
*(4) The required conductor shall be 450 to 600 mm (18 to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.*
*(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to 6 in.) below the subgrade.*

The problem is when the tub is sitting on an elevated deck. The #8 has to be installed through bored holes and secured to the framing members 4 in. to 6 in. underneath the tub.

Go figure.​


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

electures said:


> Even with the tub elevated an equipotential bonding grid is required.
> 
> *680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
> *
> ...


Show me, or explain it to me. I could be wrong, but I have done tubs before and whenever they were off the ground they required no grid. Or I should say my AHJ did not require one.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Show me, or explain it to me. I could be wrong, but I have done tubs before and whenever they were off the ground they required no grid. Or I should say my AHJ did not require one.


John where is the exception for decks. There isn't any....


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> John where is the exception for decks. There isn't any....


So, we are bonding the wooden posts to the system bond? Makes little sense. I know this was discussed before. I will look for that thread. Thanks Dennis.

*electures. Thanks. *


----------



## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

The whole outside portable hot tub/spa section of the code makes little sense..


----------



## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> So, we are bonding the wooden posts to the system bond? Makes little sense. I know this was discussed before. I will look for that thread. Thanks Dennis.
> 
> *electures. Thanks. *


NJ DCA I believe has contacted the code making panel with this exact problem. So far they have made no change. New Jersey is requiring the #8 be installed underneath the wooden decks as I described.

The NEC clearly does not excempt this.

Now we are bonding wood decks. We are also bonding the water inside the pool. What is next, the air around the pool?.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

jensonlewis said:


> Hello to all......Good discussion.
> Am here because of a query in my mind.Last year i installed a hot tub in my outdoor area.But recently am facing problem that it doesn't give hot water means some electric problem occurs and its don't work in proper manner can any one know what problem occur in it.I tried to search problem but can't find any.........
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> For more information visit...........


D I Y forum will help you! OR, call a licenced electrician!


----------



## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

John Valdes said:


> Not trying to be a smart ass, but they did put that receptacle in that GFCI disconnect for a reason. It's required.


That's a blank face GFCI in that spa disco.


----------



## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

jensonlewis said:


> Hello to all......Good discussion.
> Am here because of a query in my mind.Last year i installed a hot tub in my outdoor area.But recently am facing problem that it doesn't give hot water means some electric problem occurs and its don't work in proper manner can any one know what problem occur in it.I tried to search problem but can't find any.........
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> For more information visit outdoor hot tubs | hot tub covers


You've come to the right place. But we charge for our knowledge :thumbsup:

I accept Paypal


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> There are a lot of different hardware configurations that you can buy. Doesn't mean all are required for all types of installations. I'm just not a monkey see, monkey do type of electrician.


A service receptacle is required but there might already be one to meet the requirement. We always figure it into out our proposals and install them regardless.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

electures said:


> NJ DCA I believe has contacted the code making panel with this exact problem. So far they have made no change. New Jersey is requiring the #8 be installed underneath the wooden decks as I described.
> 
> The NEC clearly does not excempt this.
> 
> Now we are bonding wood decks. We are also bonding the water inside the pool. *What is next, the air around the pool?.*




Hmmm.. how can I design a product, register it, trademark it, and sell something that'll bond air? These are all things the Bond Safe 680 people thought of and now look.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> 1) Equipotential bonding grid required. You must install one or elevate the tub off the ground.
> 
> 2) Insulated ground (EGC)
> 
> ...


 
Where are you getting number 2 from?

680.42 (c) clearly states that the ground must be insulated OR enclosed in the outer sheath


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Dudes, this thread is almost a year old.


----------



## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Dudes, this thread is almost a year old.


 Sorry Dennis but I thought this would be relevant.


> robnj772: Where are you getting number 2 from?
> 680.42 (c) clearly states that the ground must be insulated OR enclosed in the outer sheath


Don't forget this one
*110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use*​*of Equipment.*
*(B) Installation and Use. *​​​​Listed or labeled equipment
*shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions*​
*included in the listing or labeling.*
 
Most if not all spas and hot tubs That I have wired said in the installation manual "The use of an insulated equipment grounding conductor is recommended." Check the spa manual before feeding it with romex. I was popped once, never again. The thing is I have always run conduit all the way back to the panel, then 680.42(c) was an exception. Everybody started to run romex through the house. I felt like I was cheating while doing it and then came the red sticker! Don't through away the manual; depending on the inspector he may want to see it.


----------

