# UPS's for control panels and critical communications



## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Two part question.
1. In your control panels what are you using for a UPS? We where trying for all AB stuff that had AOI's or drop in to the tree. We were using the AB 1609-D with ethernet card, but I just had my forth one fail (different areas of town). I will NEVER use these again when they failed they went to a NO power out state even though plant power was on. 
We are using Phoenix contact power supplies and redundancy units. We are thinking of their UPS unit with lithium batteries, any body using one.
2. Is anyone using a power wall type unit for long term back up of control/communication panels. We are putting a microwave ring in as a backhaul system and want to keep it running during a power failure. This is outside and would be put in it's own panel, not a server type room.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

I'll be watching this closely. I have been wondering if there is a better option out there.
We have two types of set ups.

Most of our panels just have a regular computer type plug in ups in them. Seems hokey but works just fine.

We do have a couple of big ups units that are wired into a breaker panel and then to various panels.. We have a newer Eaton, don't know the model. Then we have two old ferr-ups (or something like that) from the 90s. They both still work just fine but the battery is out of one of them, regular 12 volt car battery. Believe they are part of Eaton now.

Mostly just posting so I'll get notifications.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The Ferr-UPS has been around forever, it's kind of legendary. It was originally from Best which I think was bought by Powerware then maybe Exide then finally Eaton. It was so popular, especially in harsh environments, they kept it around forever even though the push in the market was to slicker newer technologies. Good info









Eaton Ferrups UPS | New FX Ferroresonant Model | Eaton UPS Systems


The old UPS Best Power Ferrups has not disappeared. It is now found in the new FX Series UPS from Eaton UPS Power Systems!




industrialupssystems.com





I have a customer that has one that's about 30 years old and still solid with proper maintenance, in 2010 we put in another for them, none of the newer alternatives really impressed me as better.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I recently got a nice Eaton UPS and so far am very happy with it.
It was even in stock!


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## ScooterMcGavin (Jan 24, 2011)

For Critical low load remote sites we designed our own solar/lithium battery backup system. All the loads were 24VDC so we were able to power everything directly off the 24VDC bus. They originally had the plug in UPS's but they would only last a few hours. With PSPS's and fires we needed something that go for days without any human intervention. We also wanted to go to lithium because we were getting tired of changing lead UPS batteries every 2-3 years. It didn't take long to put them to the test. We oversized them so they could go a day with minimal solar radiation due to heavy smoke.

I agree the Allen Bradley ones aren't worth it. We had the same problem where it would fail and not output on bypass. Expensive and a pain to change out.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

With UPS you have to think about what you are protecting and why. At the extreme reliability end are substation battery systems possibly with inverters. They can be fairly compact. I’ve put in some MESA systems lately that are roughly 36” x 24” and none of the problems with Nickel metal whatever. Should be good almost forever with proper (low) maintenance. Along the same line are capacitive trip systems although they can do more. You basically get about a minute of power, easily enough to ride through as a generator fires up or where a battery system is gross overkill.

Powerware is like that too WITH the maintenance. It’s basically what I just described but less “old school” more intended for the AC market. Unlike anything from APC they are reasonably priced for what they do including battery replacements and they don’t freak out and kill the battery just because say you are outside the 110-120 V window.

At the other end are the cheap “APC” or “Tripplite” units of which I have less trouble with Tripplite. With either one just replace the whole thing every 36 months. You can get replacement batteries at 90%+ of the cost of a whole new unit.

Finally are power conditioners. Good from Tripplite. If your whole point is just power quality, these are vastly cheap and don’t have batteries. Think of it as a battery free UPS. Sags, swells, and surges are no problem but a true outage is not.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

We use Phoenix contact din rail mounted ups with 2 battery packs as we can service them with out shutting anything down (ups unit is meant to have a life time warranty as long as the surge suppressor is installed on the power supply, Batteries are not covered). 
Replacement batteries never use to be a problem but since the pandemic the lead time is becoming longer and longer so that's something you have to consider with any brand.

All the MCC's have eaton 10k or larger ups towers. They work great until you get a direct lightning strike at which point they become a very expensive opp's as you require a eaton tech to repair them.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

For batteries check Zoro & Global Industrial.
I'm too lazy to look up which one but we just got about a dozen batteries for around $100. Four of this and 8 of that in 4 packs IIRC. Free shipping. Had them in a week. This was a month ago.


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## T-Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

A good topic: I use a lot of Weidmuller 5V and 24VDC DIN rail mounted power supplies. A few years ago I started using their UPS modules. 

They seem to work well for my small PLC builds. (Mostly Siemens S7 and Koyo with about twenty modules.)


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

We've had so many dead din rail UPS's, wish I had money for every one that when flying into the back of one of our trucks. 

We do cheap plug in jobs, tripplites usually, with a cord and plug setup so if one does kick the bucket you plug the panel in to the recep while you go and get another one.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Quote
All the MCC's have eaton 10k or larger ups towers. They work great until you get a direct lightning strike at which point they become a very expensive opp's as you require a eaton tech to repair them.
[/QUOTE]

If your loosing the ups to lightning then add in the EATON surge protectors for MCC's.


https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/design-guides---consultant-audience/eaton-low-voltage-mcc-design-guide-dg043001en.pdf


.

If you have an older MCC get a hold of the MCC plant near you. They can walk you through the method of identifying the sections and what will fit. The MCC plant will be a better result than the typical sales person. As all they do is MCC's
The Sulpher Springs plant in CA used to design and build MCC's for me with bump out doors so I could have my guys put in Toshiba Drives. 

I worked for Cutler-Hammer during the Eaton conversion. Did a lot with MCC's, rags and dirt projects and breaker testing. I was in the group called CHESS or ESS I believe now.

Depending on your status with Eaton, ask your salesman for Bid Master. Software that can configure panels, services, and MCC's. You can even do medium voltage services, which I DO NOT RECOMMEND. Saves a lot of time. I used to do 4-5 different layouts for the customer let them choose which way they wanted it. (Submitals)
They even have free classes for the software occasionally.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> We've had so many dead din rail UPS's, wish I had money for every one that when flying into the back of one of our trucks.
> 
> We do cheap plug in jobs, tripplites usually, with a cord and plug setup so if one does kick the bucket you plug the panel in to the recep while you go and get another one.


This is how I do my panels, if I can.......

I'll put a single recept (sometimes a 30 amp 120 volt twist lock) on the wall on top of the panel and supply the panel with a cord-and-plug. 

Normally, it goes recept - UPS - panel cord but if the UPS fails, simply plug the panel cord into the recept.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

SWDweller said:


> Quote
> All the MCC's have eaton 10k or larger ups towers. They work great until you get a direct lightning strike at which point they become a very expensive opp's as you require a eaton tech to repair them.


If your loosing the ups to lightning then add in the EATON surge protectors for MCC's.


https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/design-guides---consultant-audience/eaton-low-voltage-mcc-design-guide-dg043001en.pdf


.

If you have an older MCC get a hold of the MCC plant near you. They can walk you through the method of identifying the sections and what will fit. The MCC plant will be a better result than the typical sales person. As all they do is MCC's
The Sulpher Springs plant in CA used to design and build MCC's for me with bump out doors so I could have my guys put in Toshiba Drives.

I worked for Cutler-Hammer during the Eaton conversion. Did a lot with MCC's, rags and dirt projects and breaker testing. I was in the group called CHESS or ESS I believe now.

Depending on your status with Eaton, ask your salesman for Bid Master. Software that can configure panels, services, and MCC's. You can even do medium voltage services, which I DO NOT RECOMMEND. Saves a lot of time. I used to do 4-5 different layouts for the customer let them choose which way they wanted it. (Submitals)
They even have free classes for the software occasionally.
[/QUOTE]


We use multi layered tvss protection but its no match for a direct lightning strike. I have seen a hole blown through the side of a unit surge suppressor rated for 80,000 amps.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

So after my experience today, I think I'm of the opinion that unless environment dictates different the ups should be mounted on the outside of the cabinet. Got called in because a bunch of stuff wasn't working (chlorine alarms, etc), after opening every box on the system and sorting through spaghetti for an hour trying to figure out where the hell the power was coming from, I finally found a failed plug in ups in an old control panel. I think from now on I want them on the outside so I can notice if they died while walking by.


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

Anybody have experience with the Eaton 9sx series ups? Had another tripplite die and take the cabinet with it even though utility power was fine. Looking to upgrade and was hoping to get an old school ferrups but apparently the smallest they make in the new fx series is 3.1 kva which is way to big. Salesman pointed me towards the 9sx at 700 VA. We have a couple of the older 91 series that the 9sx replaced that haven't given us any issues. I'm done with these cheap computer grade ones.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

mburtis said:


> Anybody have experience with the Eaton 9sx series ups? Had another tripplite die and take the cabinet with it even though utility power was fine. Looking to upgrade and was hoping to get an old school ferrups but apparently the smallest they make in the new fx series is 3.1 kva which is way to big. Salesman pointed me towards the 9sx at 700 VA. We have a couple of the older 91 series that the 9sx replaced that haven't given us any issues. I'm done with these cheap computer grade ones.


I have been using those for over 20 years, they were powerware before eaton and exide before powerware. I bought them because they were a really solid double conversion UPS for smaller applications, and they worked out great.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

mburtis said:


> Anybody have experience with the Eaton 9sx series ups? Had another tripplite die and take the cabinet with it even though utility power was fine. Looking to upgrade and was hoping to get an old school ferrups but apparently the smallest they make in the new fx series is 3.1 kva which is way to big. Salesman pointed me towards the 9sx at 700 VA. We have a couple of the older 91 series that the 9sx replaced that haven't given us any issues. I'm done with these cheap computer grade ones.


I have a 5S 1500 and I love it.
If I needed another today I'd buy the same thing.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

One of the groups when purchased Eaton improved them. The hard part with these UPS's is to remember to change the battery yearly. I come from an enviroment where heat is a constant issue. So batteries on critical equipment get changed often. The units are sold with the check out and battery replacement included. After service we offer another exchange at the current rate.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MikeFL said:


> I have a 5S 1500 and I love it.
> If I needed another today I'd buy the same thing.


I think the 5 series is line-interactive, which may be fine, I just prefer the dual conversion for mission critical applications.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

We are using the PW9 with good luck.
Just started using phoenix contact with lithium battery


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

just the cowboy said:


> We are using the PW9 with good luck.
> Just started using phoenix contact with lithium battery


It appears the 9sx is the replacement for the now discontinued pw9 series. We have a couple of 9130s and a 9170+ that seem to be solid. Gotta be better than these Mickey mouse ones that we typically buy.


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