# Grounding receptacle in a mulberry cover.



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So let's say you are installing a typical 50A welder receptacle. You use an offset nipple to connect a 1900 box to the panel. You nut&bolt the receptacle to a mulberry cover (raised cover with flattened corners) and run only the current carrying conductors to the receptacle. The ground terminal on the receptacle remains empty, no grounding conductors are used at all.

Is this compliant? The NEC allows you to ground the receptacle thru the cover, even thought the receptacle is not rate self-grounding. Correct?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

HackWork said:


> So let's say you are installing a typical 50A welder receptacle. You use an offset nipple to connect a 1900 box to the panel. You nut&bolt the receptacle to a mulberry cover (raised cover with flattened corners) and run only the current carrying conductors to the receptacle. The ground terminal on the receptacle remains empty, no grounding conductors are used at all.
> 
> Is this compliant? The NEC allows you to ground the receptacle thru the cover, even thought the receptacle is not rate self-grounding. Correct?


Just to clarify, you only ran two wires for the welder with no ground?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Just to clarify, you only ran two wires for the welder with no ground?


Yes, no ground wire. Or even if you run a ground wire, terminate it in the box.

Either way, it is compliant to ground the receptacle via the mulberry cover, correct?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Yes, the NEC allows this.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Not the way I would do it, but it seems compliant. I would run a ground if the KO is concentric but you are under 250v so that is not required. Is the 5' of #10 or #8 really going to kill the margin on the job? $hit like that I grab out of my scrap copper bin on the way to the job, so it is all extra profit anyways


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> Not the way I would do it, but it seems compliant. I would run a ground if the KO is concentric but you are under 250v so that is not required. Is the 5' of #10 or #8 really going to kill the margin on the job? $hit like that I grab out of my scrap copper bin on the way to the job, so it is all extra profit anyways


It's a code question.


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

406.4 (B)- says the receptacles ground terminal must be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.

250.146 (A)- Says that , in order to be considered connected, the receptacle has to attached with 2 screws, and that the cover needs to be attached to the box with _"flattened non-raised portion"_ like you said.

I say good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Ok, thanks everyone.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

You’re welcome.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Wait!
I didn't get to reply!


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

I installed a bunch of 1G timers in Austin covers on 1900’s. They used the ground for the onboard computer and LEDs. Had a lot of ground connection issues because the manufacturer clear coated the covers. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> I installed a bunch of 1G timers in Austin covers on 1900’s. They used the ground for the onboard computer and LEDs. Had a lot of ground connection issues because the manufacturer clear coated the covers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There’s two different types of mulberry covers available in my area. One of them looks like bare metal, maybe galvanized. The other one is painted gray.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> There’s two different types of mulberry covers available in my area. One of them looks like bare metal, maybe galvanized. The other one is painted gray.


The gray painted covers are the genuine Mulberry covers. The bare metal are from Raco, Eaton, etc.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> The gray painted covers are the genuine Mulberry covers. The bare metal are from Raco, Eaton, etc.


I don't reckon I've ever seen a genuine Mulberry cover then.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Mulberry makes galvanized and a bunch of different finishes, but if you ask for a mulberry cover for a 4x4 local here, you'll get a gray painted raised industrial cover. 

https://mulberrymetal.com/products/wallplateCatalog.php


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Soooo, the NEC makes you run a bond conductors to the yoke on a 59¢ switch but you can rely on a bolted connection to a cover plate for a 50A receptacle as a bond?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Soooo, the NEC makes you run a bond conductors to the yoke on a 59¢ switch


 No.



> you can rely on a bolted connection to a cover plate for a 50A receptacle as a bond?


 Yes, and a switch.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Soooo, the NEC makes you run a bond conductors to the yoke on a 59¢ switch but you can rely on a bolted connection to a cover plate for a 50A receptacle as a bond?


The NEC makes us bond switches. It does not specify the manner. A metal cover mechanically fastened to a bonded metal box is considered sufficient to bond a device attached to said bonded cover. Alternatively, if we use a plastic box, we can use a wire-type conductor to bond the metal yoke of the device to the Equipment Grounding Conductor®.

But it never tells us to attach a ground to a metal strap in a plastic box whether or not the device requires it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> The NEC makes us bond switches. It does not specify the manner. A metal cover mechanically fastened to a bonded metal box is considered sufficient to bond a device attached to said bonded cover. Alternatively, if we use a plastic box, we can use a wire-type conductor to bond the metal yoke of the device to the Equipment Grounding Conductor®.
> 
> But it never tells us to attach a ground to a metal strap in a plastic box whether or not the device requires it.


Also, in the case of a toggle switch in a normal wallbox, if it's installed in a metal box then there is no need for an EGC to be landed on the switches ground screw.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> I don't reckon I've ever seen a genuine Mulberry cover then.


Is that so? 

They are made in New Jersey which rumor has it is the home of the most handsome electrician in that state. Must be something we get here in the Northeast only.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression the NEC had you bond the switch (with a conductor)in all instances.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Is that so?
> 
> They are made in New Jersey which rumor has it is the home of the most handsome electrician in that state. Must be something we get here in the Northeast only.


New Jersey is the home of the most handsome Electrician in that state (New Jersey)?


Allow myself to introduce... myself.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression the NEC had you bond the switch (with a conductor)in all instances.


No, that’s only the incredibly stupid CEC that requires you to bond a switch with a conductor when it also requires grounding provisions to bond a switch be installed in plastic boxes.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I agree, it is stupid.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression the NEC had you bond the switch (with a conductor)in all instances.


 A wire bond isn't required for switches in metal boxes or on raised covers. I never run a wire bond in those situations.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Expert installation.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 144196
> 
> 
> Expert installation.


Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.


Also, the bottom box ear looks recessed, so, it may not make good contact.
Are switches like receptacles in that you need that silly self grounding clip on one screw if you want to skip the ground wire?
tbh I'm not a ground the switch fanatic.








...








...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> View attachment 144196
> 
> 
> Expert installation.


That makes me sick.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.


I don’t believe the code requires them to be removed. The strap wouldn’t be making contact with the metal box in most situations since the ears generally sit against the wall surface and the box is often slightly recessed. The screws are enough to bond it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> New Jersey is the home of the most handsome Electrician in that state (New Jersey)?
> 
> 
> Allow myself to introduce... myself.


You automatically assumed I was talking about you? :vs_OMG:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> You automatically assumed I was talking about you? :vs_OMG:


No, it had nothing to do with that. Every state is the home of the most handsome Electrician in that state. The sentence you wrote was written in a silly way which reminded me of the sentence that I wrote.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> No, it had nothing to do with that. Every state is the home of the most handsome Electrician in that state. The sentence you wrote was written in a silly way which reminded me of the sentence that I wrote.


I see.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I see.


Your insolence is unacceptable. Now I’m going to have to like the post of someone insulting you. You’ve left me no choice.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Your insolence is unacceptable. Now I’m going to have to like the post of someone insulting you. You’ve left me no choice.



Don't. Please don't. :sad:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Don't. Please don't. :sad:


We’ll have to talk it out in private.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> We’ll have to talk it out in private.


Doubtful. Aren't you going camping this weekend?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Doubtful. Aren't you going camping this weekend?


Of course. And now that Joe is permanently kicked out, there’s an opening you’ve been waiting for.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Of course. And now that Joe is permanently kicked out, there’s an opening you’ve been waiting for.


Joe is not kicked out!!! :vs_mad:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Joe is not kicked out!!! :vs_mad:


Absolutely, I don’t like the way he spoke to me. I told you about those feelings that I have.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Of course. And now that Joe is permanently kicked out, there’s an opening you’ve been waiting for.



If I had any feelings, they would be hurt right now :icon_cry:


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm glad I'm not _that_ Joe.......


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> I'm glad I'm not _that_ Joe.......


No, you’re OK. For now.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Whew!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.





HackWork said:


> I don’t believe the code requires them to be removed. The strap wouldn’t be making contact with the metal box in most situations since the ears generally sit against the wall surface and the box is often slightly recessed. The screws are enough to bond it.



I think CW is thinking of receptacles. If the receptacle isn't a self grounding type, you have to remove at least one of the cardboard or plastic washers to be excluded from landing an EGC on the ground screw of the recep on a metal box. But this is only for a surface mounted box.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.





HackWork said:


> I don’t believe the code requires them to be removed. The strap wouldn’t be making contact with the metal box in most situations since the ears generally sit against the wall surface and the box is often slightly recessed. The screws are enough to bond it.


I thought the code had something in there that specifically said you had to remove the insulating blah blah from at least one ... I will look for it another time.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I thought the code had something in there that specifically said you had to remove the insulating blah blah from at least one ... I will look for it another time.


As ALS mentioned, that is for receptacles.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> New Jersey is the home of the most handsome Electrician in that state (New Jersey)?
> 
> 
> Allow myself to introduce... myself.



NY is home to the second best electrician. Allow me to introduce myself. 


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.



Isn’t the yoke supposed to have a metal wire or clip on one of the 6/32’s to be considered self-grounding?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> NY is home to the second best electrician in that state. Allow me to introduce myself.


Fify.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Isn’t the yoke supposed to have a metal wire or clip on one of the 6/32’s to be considered self-grounding?


Yes, but the NEC doesn't require a toggle switch to be self grounding.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Yes, but the NEC doesn't require a toggle switch to be self grounding.



Correct. It requires devices to be grounded. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Correct. It requires devices to be grounded.


Of course, and in the situation of a toggle switch, it allow it to be grounded via the 2 mounting screws.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes, 404.9(B)(1).



> (B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar
> control switches, shall be connected to an equipment grounding
> conductor and shall provide a means to connect metal faceplates
> to the equipment grounding conductor, whether or not
> ...



Notice that last sentence says we can use the Canadian method of paying 3 times more for a plastic box with grounding provisions in it :biggrin:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

OK, everyone calm down. So you are specifically required to remove the cardboard or even use a self grounding switch. But it seems electrically deficient if you don't. I suppose not much current would ever be imposed on a switch yoke but still.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> OK, everyone calm down. So you are specifically required to remove the cardboard or even use a self grounding switch. But it seems electrically deficient if you don't. I suppose not much current would ever be imposed on a switch yoke but still.


Code allows the box to be recessed, and most are. So what would the point of removing the cardboard be? 

That cardboard washer is just going to float in the space between the strap and the face of the box, which code allows to be up to a 1/4" (although it's commonly more than that).


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Code allows the box to be recessed, and most are. So what would the point of removing the cardboard be?
> 
> That cardboard washer is just going to float in the space between the strap and the face of the box, which code allows to be up to a 1/4" (although it's commonly more than that).


Right, so I won't be using the screws to ground the switch.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Right, so I won't be using the screws to ground the switch.


That's your choice, but code allows it and it is very common. I don't know if I have ever seen an EGC run to a toggle switch in a metal wallbox (while most of them are recessed).

I guess this is allowed because it has never been a problem. It wasn't all that long ago that the NEC started requiring ground screws on toggle switches (well after non-metallic boxes were mainstream). If they let it go for that long, there were probably no injuries or issues. They probably only changed it for good measure, not because people were getting hurt.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> That's your choice, but code allows it and it is very common. I don't know if I have ever seen an EGC run to a toggle switch in a metal wallbox (while most of them are recessed).
> 
> I guess this is allowed because it has never been a problem. It wasn't all that long ago that the NEC started requiring ground screws on toggle switches (well after non-metallic boxes were mainstream). If they let it go for that long, there were probably no injuries or issues. They probably only changed it for good measure, not because people were getting hurt.


Right. I doubt it was ever a problem. But since they are now required to be grounded, I will do it solidly. The point of contact between the screw and yoke is not satisfying to me. Especially since we sometimes loosen them for alignment and let the plate snug them up. I'm not really in love with self grounding devices either.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> Right. I doubt it was ever a problem. But since they are now required to be grounded, I will do it solidly. The point of contact between the screw and yoke is not satisfying to me. Especially since we sometimes loosen them for alignment and let the plate snug them up. I'm not really in love with self grounding devices either.



Wait until you have 35 guys installing 2000 of these on a high rise


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

VELOCI3 said:


> Wait until you have 35 guys installing 2000 of these on a high rise
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No thanks. You have that covered.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

And absolutely no tape on outlets, switches and especially wirenuts. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> And absolutely no tape on outlets, switches and especially wirenuts.


Wait a sec, what do you mean by that?


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

The way I always figured it, was that a switch doesn’t have a ground prong that is going to be used to extend the equipment grounding conductor out to some device or appliance. That is why the code was always more lenient with switches. No need to run an equipment bonding jumper out to a switch that is or isn’t sitting flush on a box (unless it’s a plastic box). 

Receptacles in drywall or block etc. I always used an equipment bonding jumper. To me, if it does not sit completely tight to the box, it’s not effectively grounded, with or without the stupid self grounding clip. To me the self grounding clip is just there to keep the screw from falling out when not installed, and doesn’t have to be removed like a fiber washer. But it still needs to sit tight on the box to be self grounding. If it’s floating in drywall, it needs a wire jumper.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Wait a sec, what do you mean by that?



Unless there is a specific reason like using Madison bars in a gem box or vibration issue for wirenuts. 


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> The way I always figured it, was that a switch doesn’t have a ground prong that is going to be used to extend the equipment grounding conductor out to some device or appliance. That is why the code was always more lenient with switches. No need to run an equipment bonding jumper out to a switch that is or isn’t sitting flush on a box.
> 
> Receptacles in drywall or block etc. I always used an equipment bonding jumper. To me, if it does not sit completely tight to the box, it’s not effectively grounded, with or without the stupid self grounding clip. To me the self grounding clip is just there to keep the screw from falling out when not installed, and doesn’t have to be removed like a fiber washer. But it still needs to sit tight on the box to be self grounding. If it’s floating in drywall, it needs a wire jumper.



Metal face plates can become energized. Metal attachment screws on plastic faceplates...energized


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Unless there is a specific reason like using Madison bars in a gem box or vibration issue for wirenuts.


Gotcha, I agree. I thought you were being sarcastic and saying all of those things should always be taped.

I only taped the toggle switch in the picture I posted because I was installing it while energized, the same reason I used the Lever Nut.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Metal face plates can become energized. Metal attachment screws on plastic faceplates...energized


This is very true.

But it seems as if it never lead to many injuries, even when toggle switches were installed in non-metallic boxes and not grounded at all because they didn't have ground screws at the time.

IMO, this is the way code is supposed to work. If we have decades of evidence that something is not dangerous, then we shouldn't prohibit it because of theories that it might be dangerous.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

VELOCI3 said:


> Metal face plates can become energized. Metal attachment screws on plastic faceplates...energized
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And all those things are effectively grounded with the two 6-32 screws into a grounded metal box.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HertzHound said:


> And all those things are effectively grounded with the two 6-32 screws into a grounded metal box.



Correct. When using a metal box. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

See? This is where both the CEC and the NEC are silly. In most cases, the yoke is mounted on a plastic switch. Then a plastic cover is installed on it. What are the realistic odds that that yoke would become energized? Somewhere between zero and no fcuking chance. But some bozos on a committee got to pat themselves on the back for a job well done.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> See? This is where both the CEC and the NEC are silly. In most cases, the yoke is mounted on a plastic switch. Then a plastic cover is installed on it. What are the realistic odds that that yoke would become energized? Somewhere between zero and no fcuking chance. But some bozos on a committee got to pat themselves on the back for a job well done.


The risk is from a hot wire in the box toughing the metal parts of a switch. If that happens, and the switch is not bonded, then the cover plate screws (and cover plate if metal) would be energized and ready to shock the net person who touches it.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> See? This is where both the CEC and the NEC are silly. In most cases, the yoke is mounted on a plastic switch. Then a plastic cover is installed on it. What are the realistic odds that that yoke would become energized? Somewhere between zero and no fcuking chance. But some bozos on a committee got to pat themselves on the back for a job well done.


Unless you use plastic plate screws, you still have exposed metal. I know, I know, what are the chances of someone touching the plate screw while grounded....


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Has anyone here run across and energized coverplate? Just curious, I have not in 32years.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> Unless you use plastic plate screws, you still have exposed metal. *I know, I know, what are the chances of someone touching the plate screw while grounded*....


It's probably more likely than people think. We touch the screws often when using the switch, anyone with carpet knows this because they get a static shock. As far as being grounded, all it really takes is being barefoot on a tile floor with some humidity.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Has anyone here run across and energized coverplate? Just curious, I have not in 32years.


Funny you should ask. I was washing some dishes at my aunt's house and reached to turn on the over-sink light. Brushed nickel plate. BLAM-O!!


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> It's probably more likely than people think. We touch the screws often when using the switch, anyone with carpet knows this because they get a static shock. As far as being grounded, all it really takes is being barefoot on a tile floor with some humidity.



I get shocked all the time. The feetey pajamas really work up a charge. 


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

CoolWill said:


> Funny you should ask. I was washing some dishes at my aunt's house and reached to turn on the over-sink light. Brushed nickel plate. BLAM-O!!


Plastic box with no grounding provisions?:biggrin:


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

joe-nwt said:


> Plastic box with no grounding provisions?:biggrin:


Probably no ground at all. Old house.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> Funny you should ask. I was washing some dishes at my aunt's house and reached to turn on the over-sink light. Brushed nickel plate. BLAM-O!!


What was the cause?


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

MTW said:


> What was the cause?


I don't know. I was 11 and didn't get into it. My aunt said that it had always been like that and she was careful to only touch the plastic switch toggle


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> Has anyone here run across and energized coverplate? Just curious, I have not in 32years.



Seen it once personally. Seen it (well screws in plastic cover) lots posted on the net. 



I've also seen numerous metal poles, boxes and sections of conduit lit up. Freaked me the hell out the first time I walked up to a metal railing and the NCV in my pocket started beeping.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

CoolWill said:


> Except that switch still has the little cardboard screw retainers and will not make a metal-to-metal connection between the box and yoke.


Good point. If the manufacture replaced them with a conductive material it would be better but then they would probably just charge more and add new rules to the next code cycle.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Just got 3 duplex covers from the supply house and they happens to be unpainted. First time I’ve seen that. It’s like getting material from Harbor Freight


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

CoolWill said:


> I don't know. I was 11 and didn't get into it. My aunt said that it had always been like that and she was careful to only touch the plastic switch toggle


I hope she has skinny fingers.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

VELOCI3 said:


> Just got 3 duplex covers from the supply house and they happens to be unpainted. First time I’ve seen that. It’s like getting material from Harbor Freight


At my supply house, Mulberry brand covers are painted and Raco brand covers are not. Although I like the look of the painted covers better, they tend to be a little more expensive then Raco. 
The added bonus to the unpainted ones is they don't get scuffed up and unsellable in your truck.
Whoever the hell makes those ghetto duplex covers with the breakaway fake crap 6/32 plates instead of nuts can die in a fire:vs_mad:


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

JoeSparky said:


> At my supply house, Mulberry brand covers are painted and Raco brand covers are not. Although I like the look of the painted covers better, they tend to be a little more expensive then Raco.
> The added bonus to the unpainted ones is they don't get scuffed up and unsellable in your truck.
> Whoever the hell makes those ghetto duplex covers with the breakaway fake crap 6/32 plates instead of nuts can die in a fire:vs_mad:



I think these were topaz 


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## joebeadg (Oct 7, 2008)

Im just happy to see I'm not the only one using the term mulberry cover. when I moved to florida, they thought it was funny


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