# restaurant service



## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

400 amp service disco with 400 amp fuses feeds one 200 amp 
meter socket, safety switch w/200 amp fuses, and 200 amp panelboard. (Original plans were two 200 amp fused safety switches, meter sockets and panelboards but it was later discovered that the load is less because some of the electric cooking equipment was changed to gas). Inspector says to change 400 amp fuses in service disco to 200 amp, this doesn't seem necessary to me. Thoughts and comments please.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

So your feeding 1- 200a panel and 1- 200a disconnect?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I Conduit said:


> 400 amp service disco with *400 amp fuses feeds one 200 amp **meter socket*, safety switch w/200 amp fuses, and 200 amp panelboard. ...........


That's why....... you can't protect 200a-rated equipment with 400a fuses.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

What is normally on the line side of a meter socket? Oh, yeah, the POCO secondary conductors. Got a quick code article as to why the OP's install is in violation?


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

william1978 said:


> So your feeding 1- 200a panel and 1- 200a disconnect?


my bad. I need to clarify. 400 amp disco feeds a 200 amp meter socket which feeds a 200 amp disco which feeds 200 amp panel. There was to be two of this set up but some electric cooking equipment changed to gas, now only one needed.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I Conduit said:


> my bad. I need to clarify. 400 amp disco feeds a 200 amp meter socket which feeds a 200 amp disco which feeds 200 amp panel. There was to be two of this set up but some electric cooking equipment changed to gas, now only one needed.


 After you clarified it I agree with 480 the meter is only rated for 200a and thats why the inspector is asking you to change the fuses,and don't forget fuse reducers.


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

william1978 said:


> After you clarified it I agree with 480 the meter is only rated for 200a and thats why the inspector is asking you to change the fuses,and don't forget fuse reducers.


I saw this as a tap, tapping two 200 amp meters off of a 400 amp service with only one meter being used. How do the residental guys do it?


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## skd76 (Jun 20, 2009)

*Service not a Tap*



I Conduit said:


> I saw this as a tap, tapping two 200 amp meters off of a 400 amp service with only one meter being used. How do the residental guys do it?


 
240.2 defines Tap Conductors as "other than a service conductor". Don't try to apply tap rules to service entrance conductors, service laterals, service drops, etc. Conductors identified as "service" are never taps. This is a fairly common misunderstanding.

-skd-


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

skd76 said:


> 240.2 defines Tap Conductors as "other than a service conductor". Don't try to apply tap rules to service entrance conductors, service laterals, service drops, etc. Conductors identified as "service" are never taps. This is a fairly common misunderstanding.
> 
> -skd-


Agreed. Bad choice of words on my part. I should have said "supply two sets of service conductors". RE art. 230.40 ex. # 2. I see 400 amp dwelling services suppling two 200 amp panels via a 320 amp meter can with no OCPD. I having a hard time wondering why I can't do the same from a 400 fused service disco.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

I Conduit said:


> Agreed. Bad choice of words on my part. I should have said "supply two sets of service conductors". RE art. 230.40 ex. # 2. I see 400 amp dwelling services suppling two 200 amp panels via a 320 amp meter can with no OCPD. I having a hard time wondering why I can't do the same from a 400 fused service disco.


The service ends at the 400 amp fused disconect. After the disconnect you have feeder conductors, not service conductors.

Chris


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

Let's try a one line diagram. Inspector says 400 amp fuses need to be changed to 200 amp. What do you say?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Do you have both meters installed now?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

If you only have one of those meters installed I agree with the call the inspector has made.


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## TxElectrician (May 19, 2008)

Is it normal for you guys to have a disconnect before the meter? It is not allowed here. Meter first, then disco. What's to keep someone from tapping into the disco for some free power?

On larger services (above 400A) they are CT metered.


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

william1978 said:


> If you only have one of those meters installed I agree with the call the inspector has made.


Only one meter is installed. The original set up called for two meters but some of the electric cooking equipment was changed to gas fired units. I don't see the difference if it has one meter can or two meter cans. If only one meter is in use and one or more meters can be installed at a later date what criteria changes the fuse size?


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

TxElectrician said:


> Is it normal for you guys to have a disconnect before the meter? It is not allowed here. Meter first, then disco. What's to keep someone from tapping into the disco for some free power?
> 
> On larger services (above 400A) they are CT metered.


no, it is not the norm. It was an existing set up. POCO will install their own padlock if it is not metered out at the padmount XFMR. What do you do when you have 7 or more meters in one location?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I Conduit said:


> Only one meter is installed. The original set up called for two meters but some of the electric cooking equipment was changed to gas fired units. I don't see the difference if it has one meter can or two meter cans. If only one meter is in use and one or more meters can be installed at a later date what criteria changes the fuse size?


 The way it is set up right now the 3/0 is overfused. If they evere add to the load then you could raise the fuse size as needed.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I Conduit said:


> What do you do when you have 7 or more meters in one location?


Around here they would hit a main fusible disconnect switch and then to a traft and go loadside metering from that point, and wire size would be sized with taps in mind,and grounds would be sized by what size fuses are in the main switch, but not larger than the hots.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

What the inspector says....the electrician does!!!!


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I Conduit said:


> Only one meter is installed. The original set up called for two meters but some of the electric cooking equipment was changed to gas fired units. I don't see the difference if it has one meter can or two meter cans. If only one meter is in use and one or more meters can be installed at a later date what criteria changes the fuse size?


Load. 

The load side feeders of the 400 amp fuses will never see anything close to 400 amps because the 200 amp disco upstream is protecting that load, not the 400 amp fuses.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Let me be more clear...

The 400 amp fuses protect the feeders

the 200 amp disconnect protects panel 

I agree with the inspector, 200 amp main fuses.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Control Freak said:


> What the inspector says....the electrician does!!!!


 It shouldn't be that way if the inspector is wrong. In this case he isn't.


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

william1978 said:


> The way it is set up right now the 3/0 is overfused. If they evere add to the load then you could raise the fuse size as needed.


Actually the way it is set up the now total load on the panel, meter socket and disco cannot exceed 200 amps.


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## I Conduit (May 4, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Around here they would hit a main fusible disconnect switch and then to a traft and go loadside metering from that point, and wire size would be sized with taps in mind,and grounds would be sized by what size fuses are in the main switch, but not larger than the hots.


I understand that perfectly. The only difference from my problem is that you would add a trough, extend the 500 kcmil feeders and tap your 3/0 meter feeds there instead of going directly to the main switch. The wire and fuse sizes end up being the same.


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