# Nec 2020 Gfci Requirements



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here's the other than dwelling



> 210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
> All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
> 
> (1)
> ...





> 210.8(C) Crawl Space Lighting Outlets.
> GFCI protection shall be provided for lighting outlets not exceeding 120 volts installed in crawl spaces.





> 210.8(D) Specific Appliances.
> Unless GFCI protection is provided in accordance with 422.5(B)(3) through (B)(5), the outlets supplying the appliances specified in 422.5(A) shall have GFCI protection in accordance with 422.5(B)(1) or (B)(2).
> 
> Where the appliance is a vending machine as specified in 422.5(A)(5) and GFCI protection is not provided in accordance with 422.5(B)(3) or (B)(4), branch circuits supplying vending machines shall have GFCI protection in accordance with 422.5(B)(1) or (B)(2).





> 210.8(E) Equipment Requiring Servicing.
> GFCI protection shall be provided for the receptacles required by 210.63.





> 210.8(F) Outdoor Outlets.
> All outdoor outlets for dwellings, other than those covered in 210.8(A)(3), Exception to (3), that are supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less, shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
> 
> Exception: Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection shall not be required on lighting outlets other than those covered in 210.8(C).


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Dont really see an issue. Just use GFCI/Arc fault combo breaker in a basement and its all the same. A 20 amp Siemens GFCI breaker my go to brand as they can also be used in Murray panels is actually more expensive than their arc/gfci combo here by about $6-8 if that makes any damn sense


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> Dont really see an issue. Just use GFCI/Arc fault combo breaker in a basement and its all the same. A 20 amp Siemens GFCI breaker my go to brand as they can also be used in Murray panels is actually more expensive than their arc/gfci combo here by about $6-8 if that makes any damn sense


Did you not see that all 240v receptacles must be gfci--dryer, range (if plug in) or any other 240v receptacles

In a finished basement you may need 2 or more gfci's

Commercial areas 3 phase equipment must be gfci in certain areas-- same as 2017


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Did you not see that all 240v receptacles must be gfci--dryer, range (if plug in) or any other 240v receptacles
> 
> In a finished basement you may need 2 or more gfci's
> 
> Commercial areas 3 phase equipment must be gfci in certain areas-- same as 2017


Oh I saw it. I will just ignore it. No need for a range or dryer to be on a GFCI 2 pole breaker when I have never one time heard of someone getting shocked because I or anyone else used a 2 pole breaker instead. This is just a way for manufacturers to make money and I will never use a GFCI for a dryer or range....its completely idiotic and downright corrupt to use safety equipment put in place to save people from areas around potentially wet or damp areas for a dryer or range. Dryer I could see a very questionable maybe in some oddball scenario causing an issue but still a nope but for a range-hell no. Are idiots pouring water behind stoves and playing with the cords at the same time ? 
Nope
Its just a money grab.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Use a GFI Main Breaker like the Brits do. :biggrin:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

So glad they don't use that crap in the factorys


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Bird dog said:


> Use a GFI Main Breaker like the Brits do. :biggrin:





dronai said:


> So glad they don't use that crap in the factorys


They do it to save money. They do have branch ckt GFIs.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Bird dog said:


> They do it to save money. They do have branch ckt GFIs.


I mean the machines don't use it, and there is no inspectors.

I can't believe in Residential the new code has those things on the appliances for 2020


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

bostonPedro said:


> I will never use a GFCI for a dryer or range....its completely idiotic and downright corrupt to use safety equipment put in place to save people from areas around potentially wet or damp areas for a dryer or range. Dryer I could see a very questionable maybe in some oddball scenario causing an issue but still a nope but for a range-hell no. Are idiots pouring water behind stoves and playing with the cords at the same time ?
> Nope


I think you are looking at it incorrectly.

In both situations of a range or dryer, you are more likely to be around water, which means wet hands or possibly standing on a wet floor. Because of that, you are more likely to be grounded or make better contact with energized parts and have some current flow thru you. 

You don't GFCI protect the counter outlet because the appliance might fall into the sink, you protect it because you might touch that appliance while you are touching the sink or standing on a moist floor. And that same risk exists with a range or dryer. 

I have always wondered why those 240V items got a pass on GFCI protection.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

In the original proposal, all "outlets 60 amp or less", not only receptacles, required GFCI protection in residential. This would include HVAC equipment. I have not read the final version yet. Did this get voted down?

I can imagine the ranting if someone were gone for a few days, in winter, and came home to everything frozen because a GFCI had tripped.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

One thing is for sure. GFCIs everywhere will have way more impact on fire prevention than AFCIs ever did.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Hey, as long as you can still get killed by the outlet feeding that important burglar alarm, I guess I'm OK with the changes.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> One thing is for sure. GFCIs everywhere will have way more impact on fire prevention than AFCIs ever did.


The theory is that GFCI’s protect against electric shock and AFCI’s protect against fire (arcs and sparks). That’s the theory anyway.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> The theory is that GFCI’s protect against electric shock and AFCI’s protect against fire (arcs and sparks). That’s the theory anyway.


Yeah, I get that. But an arcing fault will turn into a ground fault long before a fire starts. And GFCIs work way better at detecting ground faults than AFCIs are at detecting arc faults.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CoolWill said:


> Yeah, I get that. But an arcing fault will turn into a ground fault long before a fire starts. And GFCIs work way better at detecting ground faults than AFCIs are at detecting arc faults.


I don't find that necessarily to be the case. The insulation can melt down and burn off conductors without them ever contacting ground. Afci's wouldn't help either though, so we need to dump the new restrictive instructions altogether. 

Here is my new code proposal: Code proposer's "shall" be dunked in hot tar, and feathered, and NEC returned to 2008 or earlier.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Has anyone really had an arc fault issue that they diagnosed? I had many ground fault problems, but not an arc fault (yet).


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Service Call said:


> Has anyone really had an arc fault issue that they diagnosed? I had many ground fault problems, but not an arc fault (yet).


No, but I've had enough nuisance tripping from garage equipment to make me really dislike the fact they are a code requirement. I usually leave a regular breaker behind where the homeowner can stumble across it........


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Service Call said:


> Has anyone really had an arc fault issue that they diagnosed? I had many ground fault problems, but not an arc fault (yet).


About 70% of arc fault problems I have encountered were simply the breaker. I have found wiring problems and shared neutrals, over-driven staples, ground-to-neutral connections and bootlegged neutrals that trip them too. A good percentage is from faulty appliances.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Service Call said:


> Has anyone really had an arc fault issue that they diagnosed? I had many ground fault problems, but not an arc fault (yet).


I have successfully diagnosed every arc fault problem I have dealt with to date. Here is the correct procedure: 


1. Is it tripping from a ground fault? 
Yes?
Find and repair ground fault in circuit 
No?
2. Is it tripping from a short circuit
Yes?
Find and repair short in circuit 
No?
3. Is it tripping from an overcurrent
Yes?
Find cause of overcurrent and rewire or run new circuit as necessary to alleviate problem 
No?
4. Is it tripping from a arc fault? 
Yes?
Tear the fcuking breaker out and replace it with a normal one

Feel free to start with step 4 to speed up the process


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

For a while, Eaton had gfi circuitry built into them , even though they said they had removed it. I knew about it because I own Knopp testers. You can easily force a ground fault using a Knopp tester and trip a gfi protected circuit. This was like maybe5-6 years ago. The ones that were long and had a yellow button to test it with. So the arc fault breakers that claimed to be rid of gfi circuits after the industry got caught only using gfi and calling it arc fault protectors still had gfi's built in. This is how I know. I cut a circuit by accident- a nm cable with my side cutters and it hardly made a scratch on the cutting blades , no dent, no melt. Try that with a current version (not the combo afci / gfi that is marketed to provide both) the current combination series, parallel afci with your nice new side cutters and kabloooeee goes the pliars. Magic Smoke. So much for arc fault protection. 

The reason I am publishing this highly suspect claim is because they re-designed the plug in panels earlier this year and the holes for the cover are beyond crummy so I am currently miffed as hell at them for doing that. I know they listen to macmikeman so boys- get yer chit together and go back to the old smaller holes , you know, the ones that worked really good . These new ones suck and the mounting screws are way way too short for the real world. Assbites.


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## armsjac (Dec 12, 2017)

Service Call said:


> Has anyone really had an arc fault issue that they diagnosed? I had many ground fault problems, but not an arc fault (yet).


One - maybe. But it did happen. I was contacted to wire a new cottage. This being done to replace the one that burned to the ground. 

While working on the new service, I talked with one of the owners. I asked how the place burned and he told me, electric fire. He then explained that the weekend before deer hunting week, he and his friends had stocked the cabin for the season. One of the items was a large amount of liquid refreshments of all types and canned goods - a lot of them.

The cases and boxes were piled on the floor in the corner. According to the fire marshal, the fire started in that corner. The owner said they had a cheap lamp cord type extension cord, under the throw rug in that corner. 

The fire marshal found a piece of floor, with the 2 copper wires running across it. The wires showed signs of arching and melted insulation. He surmised the weight of the beer and soda compressed the cord to the point of heating and arcing. He said the fire spread upward through the carpet and cardboard boxes to light the whole place up. It's out in the woods, isolated, and reported way to late. 

So, two questions. Was the fire marshal correct? I tend to believe him. And would a AFCI have prevented the fire? I don't know. 

It was a great job, I enjoyed it. And yeah, the new place has the required (at that time) AFCIs.


Sorry to be a part of hijacking the thread. Thanks for the info and discussion on the 240v recepts Dennis


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

armsjac said:


> One - maybe. But it did happen. I was contacted to wire a new cottage. This being done to replace the one that burned to the ground.
> 
> While working on the new service, I talked with one of the owners. I asked how the place burned and he told me, electric fire. He then explained that the weekend before deer hunting week, he and his friends had stocked the cabin for the season. One of the items was a large amount of liquid refreshments of all types and canned goods - a lot of them.
> 
> ...


Expecting an AFCI breaker to have prevented that fire is the same as expecting a good luck charm that you hang over the door to prevent that fire.

Neither have been proven by unbiased sources. Until they are, it's just wishful thinking and/or blind faith.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

armsjac said:


> One - maybe. But it did happen. I was contacted to wire a new cottage. This being done to replace the one that burned to the ground.
> 
> While working on the new service, I talked with one of the owners. I asked how the place burned and he told me, electric fire. He then explained that the weekend before deer hunting week, he and his friends had stocked the cabin for the season. One of the items was a large amount of liquid refreshments of all types and canned goods - a lot of them.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, this is a story about fire that might have resulted from an arc; it's not a story about an arc fault breaker, it doesn't have anything to do with their effectiveness. 

I am skeptical about arc fault breakers doing anything to prevent these fires, not about arcs from crushed cords etc. causing fires.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> For a while, Eaton had gfi circuitry built into them , even though they said they had removed it. I knew about it because I own Knopp testers. You can easily force a ground fault using a Knopp tester and trip a gfi protected circuit. This was like maybe5-6 years ago. The ones that were long and had a yellow button to test it with. So the arc fault breakers that claimed to be rid of gfi circuits after the industry got caught only using gfi and calling it arc fault protectors still had gfi's built in. This is how I know. I cut a circuit by accident- a nm cable with my side cutters and it hardly made a scratch on the cutting blades , no dent, no melt. Try that with a current version (not the combo afci / gfi that is marketed to provide both) the current combination series, parallel afci with your nice new side cutters and kabloooeee goes the pliars. Magic Smoke. So much for arc fault protection.
> 
> The reason I am publishing this highly suspect claim is because they re-designed the plug in panels earlier this year and the holes for the cover are beyond crummy so I am currently miffed as hell at them for doing that. I know they listen to macmikeman so boys- get yer chit together and go back to the old smaller holes , you know, the ones that worked really good . These new ones suck and the mounting screws are way way too short for the real world. Assbites.


Just to be clear it is not Gfci(4-6ma) that is in the afci. It is GFPE(40 ma)


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Just to be clear, many energized cords show evidence of arcing when subjected to fire and almost all show evidence of insulation melting.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

armsjac said:


> The cases and boxes were piled on the floor in the *corner*. According to the fire marshal, the fire started in that *corner*. The owner said they had a cheap lamp cord type extension cord, under the throw rug in that *corner*.





joe-nwt said:


> Just to be clear, many energized cords show evidence of arcing when subjected to fire and almost all show evidence of insulation melting.


Just to be clear a house cannot be made *idiot* proof.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I very seriously doubt that an AFCI would have prevented this fire. 

Since it was a 2 wire cord on a wood floor, there would be no differential current to trip the GFI portion of it. 

When the 2 conductors made contact and began to arc, the AFCI would most likely see this as simply the inrush current of a large motor (like a vacuum cleaner) starting and would have not tripped.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

210.8(B) *Other Than Dwelling Units*.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

I'm confused! Is it 150 volts or less or is it 250 volts or less? Is it 50 amps or less or is it 100 amps or less?


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## pashok99 (Jan 22, 2020)

Easy said:


> 210.8(B) *Other Than Dwelling Units*.
> All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
> 
> I'm confused! Is it 150 volts or less or is it 250 volts or less? Is it 50 amps or less or is it 100 amps or less?


There's a lot of information being thrown at you, but read it slowly. 

Single Phase: All 125-250v, 150v or less to ground, 50A or less. A 2 pole breaker is sending 120v per leg, or 240 total. When you measure the voltage at the receptacle, 120v hot to ground per leg, or 240v hot to hot. 

Three Phase: 150v or less to ground, 100A or less.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

pashok99 said:


> There's a lot of information being thrown at you, but read it slowly.
> 
> Single Phase: All 125-250v, 150v or less to ground, 50A or less. A 2 pole breaker is sending 120v per leg, or 240 total. When you measure the voltage at the receptacle, 120v hot to ground per leg, or 240v hot to hot.
> 
> Three Phase: 150v or less to ground, 100A or less.


Sooner or later someone may make up a chart or make your own & have it vetted.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

I have seen a number of failed back stabbed receptacle installations already, where the AFCI did absolutely nothing. It operated the same as a standard breaker, allowing the fault to occur and continue. 

Isn't that exactly what they are trying to prevent, what they have been specifically designed for?


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

pashok99 said:


> There's a lot of information being thrown at you, but read it slowly.
> 
> Single Phase: All 125-250v, 150v or less to ground, 50A or less. A 2 pole breaker is sending 120v per leg, or 240 total. When you measure the voltage at the receptacle, 120v hot to ground per leg, or 240v hot to hot.
> 
> Three Phase: 150v or less to ground, 100A or less.


You laid this out in such a way that anyone could understand. Especially by putting it into 2 categories, Single Phase or 3 Phase. Thanks bunches ...


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

The code seems to be fairly straight forward when it spells out where GFCI's are required. The only thing that confuses me is "Indoor wet locations". How do we define a wet location.
Example: 
In a warehouse that is a completely open area (no interior walls). 
There is a tank or vessel that is periodically hosed down. Hose length is unknown but water can spray at least 20 ft or so. How in the world would you know how far out from the cleaning area is considered a wet location and would require GFCI protection?


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## pashok99 (Jan 22, 2020)

Easy said:


> The code seems to be fairly straight forward when it spells out where GFCI's are required. The only thing that confuses me is "Indoor wet locations". How do we define a wet location.
> Example:
> In a warehouse that is a completely open area (no interior walls).
> There is a tank or vessel that is periodically hosed down. Hose length is unknown but water can spray at least 20 ft or so. How in the world would you know how far out from the cleaning area is considered a wet location and would require GFCI protection?


Definitions,100:
Location, Damp: Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. 
Informational note: Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

Location, Dry: A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction. 

Location, Wet: Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather. 

The way I see it, any location subject to saturation with water is a wet location. So in your case, the working area plus the 20 foot area that the hose could spray. Ultimately, the interpretation of code is subject to the AHJ, and they would say how far they want you to go.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Soon I will have compiled a complete version of the code just from ET posts. ha ha

I consider 90% of the area I am working in as described by the NEC are considered wet locations. Hose bibs, floor drains, boiler, RO system and other such equipment might be a clue as to how wet things might get. I guess it's best to ask and get it in writing first.

I hate contacting the city and feel that the EE should have supplied me with better design details.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I just want to know why the 60 degree column of the table we use so often does not list NM cable in the heading, being the most widely used cable.
@Dennis Alwon, any ideas?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Switched said:


> I have seen a number of failed back stabbed receptacle installations already, where the AFCI did absolutely nothing. It operated the same as a standard breaker, allowing the fault to occur and continue.
> 
> Isn't that exactly what they are trying to prevent, what they have been specifically designed for?



They don't trip for glowing connections. They don't trip for intermittent arcs either. They are specifically designed to trip when you use a vacuum cleaner, compound miter box or operate a ham radio anywhere in their vicinity.
It is your Fault that the breaker manufacturers don't have an Ark full of money. So they planted people on code making panels to fill their Ark


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## pashok99 (Jan 22, 2020)

HackWork said:


> I just want to know why the 60 degree column of the table we use so often does not list NM cable in the heading, being the most widely used cable.
> @Dennis Alwon, any ideas?


Typically THHN conductors are used in type NM, however, 334.80 says the ampacity shall not exceed 60C.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

pashok99 said:


> Typically THHN conductors are used in type NM, however, 334.80 says the ampacity shall not exceed 60C.


The same conductors are used in UF. Why is UF in the table but not NM?


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## pashok99 (Jan 22, 2020)

HackWork said:


> The same conductors are used in UF. Why is UF in the table but not NM?


Table 310.16 is based off of 310.4, and Table 310.4A. 

In my interpretation, UF is being considered an insulator on a conductor, whereas NM sheathing is not an insulator but just a jacket.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

pashok99 said:


> In my interpretation, UF is being considered an insulator on a conductor, whereas NM sheathing is not an insulator but just a jacket.


Neither is insulation. The conductors have their own insulation.


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## pashok99 (Jan 22, 2020)

pashok99 said:


> Table 310.16 is based off of 310.4, and Table 310.4A.
> 
> In my interpretation, UF is being considered an insulator on a conductor, whereas NM sheathing is not an insulator but just a jacket.


I don't see an edit button.

UF outer covering is "Integral with insulation". Hence, why it is subject to ampacity adjustment.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

HackWork said:


> The same conductors are used in UF. Why is UF in the table but not NM?


UF also comes single strand. The table is for conductors not cables. SER is not in there either, nor mc,ac, etc


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> UF also comes single strand. The table is for conductors not cables. SER is not in there either, nor mc,ac, etc


If it's for conductors and not cable, why is UF listed there? I still don't get it.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

joe-nwt said:


> No, but I've had enough nuisance tripping from garage equipment to make me really dislike the fact they are a code requirement. I usually leave a regular breaker behind where the homeowner can stumble across it........


I have had many, many service calls due to AFCI nuisance tripping. I guess it is good for my business, but a real bummer for home owners. One lady was at the end of her wits because her vacuum was constantly tripping her AFC's. Obviously a fault on the vacuum, doesn't take much - 30MA. Maybe the vacuum manufacturers are in on this deal too. ???


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Quickservice said:


> I have had many, many service calls due to AFCI nuisance tripping. I guess it is good for my business, but a real bummer for home owners. One lady was at the end of her wits because her vacuum was constantly tripping her AFC's. Obviously a fault on the vacuum, doesn't take much - 30MA. Maybe the vacuum manufacturers are in on this deal too. ???


Vacuum cleaners and lots of other motor loads trip arc fault breakers because of a flawed design of AFCI breakers. Most people are fed the bull$hit illusion the arc fault breakers know the difference between a good Arc and a bad Arc :no::no: That fantasy is incorrect. The way an arc fault breaker really functions is it trips on a large inrush current and the presence of any Arc. 
Motor loads have a much higher starting current than running current. By design, brushed motors are supposed to arc. This is why your customers constantly complain about them nuisance tripping for vacuum cleaners, saws, drills, blenders, food processors, etc.
I can't wait to wire an attached garage in Massachusetts on the 2020 code with their amendments :vs_poop::thumbdown:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Quickservice said:


> I have had many, many service calls due to AFCI nuisance tripping. I guess it is good for my business, but a real bummer for home owners. One lady was at the end of her wits because her vacuum was constantly tripping her AFC's. Obviously a fault on the vacuum, doesn't take much - 30MA. Maybe the vacuum manufacturers are in on this deal too. ???


I haven't had "many, many" of these calls, but have done enough over the years to definitively say that it's always the AFCI mumbo-jumbo part of the breaker that is causing the tripping, not the GFPE or GFCI in the case of a DF breaker. 

It was not the fault of the vacuum at all, it was the breaker. You should have removed it and installed a regular breaker.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> It was not the fault of the vacuum at all, it was the breaker. You should have removed it and installed a regular breaker.


:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I feel like I started the whole openly promoting of replacing AFCI breakers with normal ones, and Peter stole my thunder.

Just like with not pulling permits, I know I was advocating that before Peter. I want credit, damnit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I feel like I started the whole openly promoting of replacing AFCI breakers with normal ones, and Peter stole my thunder.
> 
> Just like with not pulling permits, I know I was advocating that before Peter. I want credit, damnit.


Aww, you poor thing.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Aww, you poor thing.


I have feelings ya know.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I have feelings ya know.


For men? :yes::yes:


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

....


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

I was not pulling permits, long before not pulling permits was cool :vs_laugh:


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis, when the state adopts the 2020, how do we know what amendments are being made to it? 

I know abou the NC state NEC amendments on the state website, but are they going to be post them before or after we adopt the new code?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Dennis, when the state adopts the 2020, how do we know what amendments are being made to it?
> 
> I know abou the NC state NEC amendments on the state website, but are they going to be post them before or after we adopt the new code?


IDK, hopefully at the same time or prior to adoption of the 2020. It was supposed to be happening this summer but I am not sure what the situation is now with this virus thing going on. I guess they can meet via zoom.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

JoeSparky said:


> I was not pulling permits, long before not pulling permits was cool :vs_laugh:


I was bragging about not pulling permits on AOL chat rooms in 1997. And posting "Gems of the Trade" style pics on Usenet and BBS systems at 9600 bps before that. I once sent a smoke signal to indicate where my buried Skotchcoated boxes were.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

CoolWill said:


> I was bragging about not pulling permits on AOL chat rooms in 1997. And posting "Gems of the Trade" style pics on Usenet and BBS systems at 9600 bps before that. I once sent a smoke signal to indicate where my buried Skotchcoated boxes were.


:vs_mad::vs_mad:

This just isn't true. I fought the good fight all alone to make hacking something that we can openly talk about. Now all you people who can be honest and say what you did instead of saying "_I know a guy who..._" are taking your freedom for granted, the freedom I fought and died for. :vs_sad:


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> :vs_mad::vs_mad:
> 
> This just isn't true. I fought the good fight all alone to make hacking something that we can openly talk about. Now all you people who can be honest and say what you did instead of saying "_I know a guy who..._" are taking your freedom for granted, the freedom I fought and died for. :vs_sad:


Why are you arguing with your other username?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

We've come such a long way...hahaha


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

Keeping up with your state code amendments may save you thousands. NC has deleted the requirement to GFCI protect 240V circuits.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

LibertyRising said:


> Keeping up with your state code amendments may save you thousands. NC has deleted the requirement to GFCI protect 240V circuits.


Where did you get that from? The 2017 doesn't require 240v gfci for dwellings only for non-dwelling. The 2020 is not accepted yet and the 2017 amendments don't state exactly what you are saying. The red was deleted



> 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
> (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50
> amperes or less and three phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less
> installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.


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## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Where did you get that from? The 2017 doesn't require 240v gfci for dwellings only for non-dwelling. The 2020 is not accepted yet and the 2017 amendments don't state exactly what you are saying. The red was deleted


That's what I was thinking of. brain fart, I just picked up the latest list of amendments and scanning through it saw that bit.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Here are the amendments for NC for those who want to see them. They can be found here- main page... the other links take you to the actual amendments.

http://ncdoi.com/OSFM/State_Electri...ld1=State_Electrical_Code_and_Interpretations


http://ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering_a...ents to be adopted with the NEC Version 1.pdf

These were added to the amendments
http://ncdoi.com/OSFM/State_Electrical_Division/Documents/2017 NC Additional Amendments.pdf


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I am doing my code update now through Mike Holt, and man, these rules are crazy.

It looks like range receptacles only have to be GFI if they are within 6' of a sink, but dryers are a must, since they are located in the "laundry area".

I can't wait to GFI welding receptacles. I'm sure welders won't cause any funkiness. Also, this whole business of "outside outlets" brings up some interesting questions. The way Mike Holt interprets this, we will have to gfi protect HVAC equipment like mini-splits in the like, if they are rated 50A or less. Puh-leeease.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Also, this whole business of "outside outlets" brings up some interesting questions. The way Mike Holt interprets this, we will have to gfi protect HVAC equipment like mini-splits in the like, if they are rated 50A or less. Puh-leeease.


Hardwired condensing units? Even central AC units?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Hardwired condensing units? Even central AC units?


I'm going to channel Mikey here for a minute. Welcome to the New world order. It keeps getting better and better.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Hardwired condensing units? Even central AC units?


In one and two family dwellings, according to mike holt, yes. I suppose one could argue whether an HVAC condensing/outdoor unit disconnect is an outlet or not. From the diagrams in the continuing ed class im doing, he does consider it an outlet.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Hardwired condensing units? Even central AC units?


They are "outlets" after all. Some dumb chit.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is anyone in a hot climate where air conditioning is pretty much essential going to put condensers on a GFCI breaker? 

"Yes Mr. Snowbird, we're terribly sorry your a.c. stopped working while you were away and your house is now full of mold. But the NEC requires your condenser to be on a GFCI breaker now." :no::no:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

But not in mass though .


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Guess it's time to buy stock in the breaker manufacturers..........


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## Is this thing on? (Apr 30, 2020)

We as electricians have not the time nor resources to piss away weeks at conferences and pointless discussions that code-making panels do. In fact, the only business model that both is the manufacturer's side. They also have the resources to persuade the other non industry reps to come to their side when voting. 

Then we bear the wrath of those decisions. And to hear the manufacturer's empty excuse that the whole committee voted the changes in begins. Or their other favorite reply is that if you don't like it, go paycheckless for weeks and join a CMP. 

Or only real hope id the local level. You must get involved locally to have amendments made. 

The NEC quit being a non partisan document around 2002. Its merely a sales catalog for devices manufacturers aren't selling enough of from the previous code cycle. If you think the NEC is otherwise, look at how difficult they make viewing the code online vs how easy they make purchasing a $100 copy. Laws should be open to the public for review. Or look at their position in the supreme court cases fighting to make lawmaking profitable. Then compare that to the Canadian code which is around $30, a reasonable paper and printing charge.


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## Is this thing on? (Apr 30, 2020)

We as electricians have not the time nor resources to piss away weeks at conferences and pointless discussions that code-making panels do. In fact, the only business model that has both is the manufacturer's side. They also have the resources to persuade the other non industry reps to come to their side when voting. 

Then we bear the wrath of those decisions. And then manufacturer's empty excuse that the whole committee voted the changes begins. Or their other favorite reply is that if you don't like it, go paycheckless for weeks and join a CMP. 

Or only real hope is at the local level. You must get involved locally to have amendments made. 

The NEC quit being a non partisan document around 2002. Its merely a sales catalog for devices manufacturers aren't selling enough of from the previous code cycle. If you think the NEC is otherwise, look at how difficult they make viewing the code online vs how easy they make purchasing a $100 copy. Laws should be open to the public for review. Or look at their position in the supreme court cases fighting to make lawmaking profitable. Then compare that to the Canadian code which is around $30, a reasonable paper and printing charge.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Is this thing on? said:


> We as electricians have not the time nor resources to piss away weeks at conferences and pointless discussions that code-making panels do. In fact, the only business model that has both is the manufacturer's side. They also have the resources to persuade the other non industry reps to come to their side when voting.
> 
> Then we bear the wrath of those decisions. And then manufacturer's empty excuse that the whole committee voted the changes begins. Or their other favorite reply is that if you don't like it, go paycheckless for weeks and join a CMP.
> 
> ...


I like this guy. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the joint.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Is this thing on? said:


> We as electricians have not the time nor resources to piss away weeks at conferences and pointless discussions that code-making panels do. In fact, the only business model that both is the manufacturer's side. They also have the resources to persuade the other non industry reps to come to their side when voting.


Add to the the never ending stream of nonsense from "industry professionals" who do nothing but tow the party line. Which industry professional (and we all know who they are ) is willing to sacrifice their reputation and livelihood to make a stand against the manufacturer influence on the NEC? Not one, because they are on the same gravy train.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Add to the the never ending stream of nonsense from "industry professionals" who do nothing but tow the party line. Which industry professional (and we all know who they are ) is willing to sacrifice their reputation and livelihood to make a stand against the manufacturer influence on the NEC? Not one, because they are on the same gravy train.


I took a 6 month break from the field and tried my hand out in a Estimator/Pm job. That really opened my eyes to how a lot of these things work in the "upper echelons". Money changes people's morals and how they look at others and themselves. It has the ability to make a man/woman do things they wouldn't do normally and to look at others differently due to "titles" and what not. 

I didn't last long. It was for the better.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

MHElectric said:


> Money changes people's morals and how they look at others and themselves. It has the ability to make a man/woman do things they wouldn't do normally and to look at others differently due to "titles" and what not.


Not one for the kids but from another 80s classic



> The main thing about money Bud, it makes you do things you don’t want to do.” - Lou Mannheim (Hal Holbrook) to Bud Fox (Charlie Sheen) – Wall Street (1987)


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Isn't that the truth. 

There's a lot to be said about someone who finds satisfaction in their wages and doesn't fall for the temptation to seek more. 

Just to be real, I struggle with this.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> Isn't that the truth.
> 
> There's a lot to be said about someone who finds satisfaction in their wages and doesn't fall for the temptation to seek more.
> 
> Just to be real, I struggle with this.


Quit struggling and get out there and sell you some whole house surge protectors for $500. After all it costs quite a bit of money to replace all the electronics in the houses......... Your doing them a favor by making $400 an hour off of em. And while you are at it, a couple of those $430 fire extinguisher's you get for $35 at Home Depot are also a great help in the case of an actual fire in the house and therefore you are doing another good deed for the day , since you save the customer at least a hundred grand in the event of a fire. Or a million in my case out here in Planet Macmikeman. Do it for the children. It's their future at stake. .........


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

It wasn't that long ago that the reasoning for requiring a GFCI was from the frequent breakage of the EGC pin from repetitive plug insertion and removal. You will not get shocked if there is a EGC in place. That is why the NEC did not require GFCI protection for fixed appliances. The outdoor outlet stemmed from an improperly installed a/c unit in Chicago which electrocuted a child. They used LFMC as the EGC and the LFMC was subjected to physical damage. The LFMC was used to isolate vibration so should not have been used for a EGC either. So we pretty much took a noncompliant installation anyhow and used that as an example to require further rules.

Now the AFCI issue. There is not a set NRTL standard for the series protection in an AFCI. The series protection watches for different frequencies created from arcing. If its the right frequency at the right intensity, it trips. Each manufacturer has their own algorithm. How would an appliance or electronics manufacturer make something work around a AFCI if each manufacturer does their own thing and changes it as necessary. We have all had the random AFCI trip thats not caused from a swapped neutral, ground fault and the wire/circuit megs fine. I had one trip from an upstream utility connection arcing, not even owned by the homeowner. We need a set NRTL standard and appropriate filtering to that only load side noise will trip an AFCI.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

mbednarik said:


> It wasn't that long ago that the reasoning for requiring a GFCI was from the frequent breakage of the EGC pin from repetitive plug insertion and removal. You will not get shocked if there is a EGC in place. That is why the NEC did not require GFCI protection for fixed appliances. The outdoor outlet stemmed from an improperly installed a/c unit in Chicago which electrocuted a child. They used LFMC as the EGC and the LFMC was subjected to physical damage. The LFMC was used to isolate vibration so should not have been used for a EGC either. So we pretty much took a noncompliant installation anyhow and used that as an example to require further rules.


But... Then surely the answer would be just require a wire type EGC in the conduit whip. They instead jumped straight to GFCI. Seems unnecessarily wasteful.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

That's my thought as well. They found any excuse to shove this on the industry. Fixed a problem that didn't exist.


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## Al13Cu29 (Nov 2, 2010)

Okay, I must be reading this code wrong, at least my logic is.

The examples that goes with, 210.8(A)(7) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink,

shows a range that is within 6' of the kitchen sink, is to be GFI protected.
I see many examples that shows this.

But, a standard electric range (and dryers for in the Laundry areas) are on a 240 volts branch circuit, which is higher than the "150 volts or less to ground".
Does this mean the range is not required to be GFC protected?

Like I said, my logic is not seeing the requirement. Can anyone explain?

Thanks!


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Al13Cu29 said:


> Okay, I must be reading this code wrong, at least my logic is.
> 
> The examples that goes with, 210.8(A)(7) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink,
> 
> ...


Can you explain how you measure 240volts to ground on your range cct?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I would also like someone to explain how you get a shock from a properly grounded.... lets's say dryer.... in the first place.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> I would also like someone to explain how you get a shock from a properly grounded.... lets's say dryer.... in the first place.


The other thing that you are touching isn't properly grounded :biggrin:


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> The other thing that you are touching isn't properly grounded :biggrin:


Then GFCI the supply for the other thing. 

Seriously, where is this all heading? Might as well bond all the sheetrock screws, GFI the main breaker and call it a day. if it saves just one life, right?

I used to snicker at comments about the breaker cartel, but it seems like they don't want to make any $10.00 breakers anymore.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Al13Cu29 said:


> Okay, I must be reading this code wrong, at least my logic is.
> 
> The examples that goes with, 210.8(A)(7) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) from the top inside edge of the bowl of the sink,
> 
> ...


A 240 circuit is still "150 volts to ground or less".


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> I would also like someone to explain how you get a shock from a properly grounded.... lets's say dryer.... in the first place.



In a perfect world, you wouldn't, and in the vast majority of cases, it's not an issue since an intact EGC and functioning breaker would remove the hazard instantly. But, the manufacturers decided that $65+ GFCI breakers are far more profitable, and passed some cash and influence to their stooges on the code panel, and magically a code rule appears in the NEC.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Then GFCI the supply for the other thing.
> 
> Seriously, where is this all heading? Might as well bond all the sheetrock screws, GFI the main breaker and call it a day. if it saves just one life, right?
> 
> I used to snicker at comments about the breaker cartel, but it seems like they don't want to make any $10.00 breakers anymore.


Now you know I am no friend of the code making panel or the manufacturers. But I think GFCI‘s work to protect people. I’m not so against them as I am with AFCI’s and other requirements.

It’s not just the dryer that you have to worry about, it’s the fact that the dryer is usually in a position where there can be dampness. And that cord could be laying in a puddle with a cut in it. Or a person can be plugging the cord in and could be standing in a puddle, or leaning against a washing machine with moisture on the top.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Now you know I am no friend of the code making panel or the manufacturers. But I think GFCI‘s work to protect people. I’m not so against them as I am with AFCI’s and other requirements.
> 
> It’s not just the dryer that you have to worry about, *it’s the fact that the dryer is usually in a position where there can be dampness. And that cord could be laying in a puddle with a cut in it. Or a person can be plugging the cord in and could be standing in a puddle, or leaning against a washing machine with moisture on the top.*


Ha-ha! Yeah, well, that's a bit of a stretch, even for you Hack. Here, let me play too:

A fire alarm panel is typically located in the lobby of a building where everyone tracks in snow and mud and the floor can be damp/puddles at any given time. Let's save one more life and GFCI that circuit too. No? Why not?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

BTW, I can safely lean on a dryer all day whether it's wet or not. So can you.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Ha-ha! Yeah, well, that's a bit of a stretch, even for you Hack.


Even for me? You want to go there?

If you were standing in front of me I’d take my points back and smack the **** out of you.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> BTW, I can safely lean on a dryer all day whether it's wet or not. So can you.



Especially when the dryer is right in front of the panel.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Even for me? You want to go there?
> 
> If you were standing in front of me I’d take my points back and smack the **** out of you.


You don't mean that.:crying:


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## armsjac (Dec 12, 2017)

MTW said:


> Especially when the dryer is right in front of the panel.



My house before I moved the washer and dryer upstairs.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> BTW, I can safely lean on a dryer all day whether it's wet or not. So can you.


Can you safely work on the panel with that big metal dryer in the way?

Soon every circuit will have to have GFI and or AFCI protection. Would not be surprised if we see changes in our code book coming out next year.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

eddy current said:


> Can you safely work on the panel with that big metal dryer in the way?
> 
> Soon every circuit will have to have GFI and or AFCI protection. Would not be surprised if we see changes in our code book coming out next year.


Hopefully if this happens production cost will go down. That's probably wishful thinking. 

With all the people out of work in the US and Canada it might create more factory jobs in our countries. More wishful thinking.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Easy said:


> Hopefully if this happens production cost will go down. That's probably wishful thinking.


How much cheaper :no::no: are Arc Fault breakers now that you have to use them almost everywhere in the house, not just the bedrooms?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> How much cheaper :no::no: are Arc Fault breakers now that you have to use them almost everywhere in the house, not just the bedrooms?


It's funny how the cost of regular consumer electronics go down year after year, but AFCI's don't. That's because a cartel makes them, and have fixed the prices.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I have noticed AFCI prices going down a bit over the years. I remember them being in the $40's, often close to $50. But now they are in the mid to high $30's. 

But GFCIs have always remained expensive, not sure why.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Not all GFCI's receptacles are constructed the same yet the price is always about the same.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

HackWork said:


> But GFCIs have always remained expensive, not sure why.


several times price has drifted down and then new requirements added

remember when they would work with line & load reversed?
remember non-TR?

may have been other changes also but those 2 come to mind


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> But GFCIs have always remained expensive, not sure why.


Still have 50-60ish white TR ones from a HD clearance deal in January. $12.75 per 3 pack :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I meant GFCI breakers.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> Still have 50-60ish white TR ones from a HD clearance deal in January. $12.75 per 3 pack :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


I only bought one 3-pack at that price


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> I only bought one 3-pack at that price


That’s kind of silly. They don’t go bad, at four dollars each you should’ve stocked up.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> That’s kind of silly. They don’t go bad, at four dollars each you should’ve stocked up.


That's the only one they had left.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

HackWork said:


> That’s kind of silly. They don’t go bad, at four dollars each you should’ve stocked up.


I bought somewhere in the area of 35 3 packs:biggrin: Cleaned out 5 HD stores :thumbup:


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## 5kv flash (Jul 15, 2016)

Easy said:


> The code seems to be fairly straight forward when it spells out where GFCI's are required. The only thing that confuses me is "Indoor wet locations". How do we define a wet location.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


Common sense and logic ...

Sent from my SM-A505U1 using Tapatalk


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## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

Our inspector has told us if there is a wash down area it needs to have a curtain or divider of some type or the entire room is wet location. You don't know the lengthy of the hose. If the operator does not pull the curtain that is not your problem. You cannot correct stupid.


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