# If you don't use plastic boxes for Romex, what do you use???



## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Just curious. I've seen a lot of people on here slam "blue boxes". Is it that they (you) don't like the color, the manufacturer, or the style, or just that it's a plastic box?

Would you be happier if the plastic were black or gray? If that's the issue, why not write a letter to Carlon and suggest they change the color of their plastic, because you don't like it?

Or, if you plain hate plastic boxes altogether, no matter what the brand, what do you use for your romex jobs - 4 squares?

Just curious...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kbatku said:


> Just curious. I've seen a lot of people on here slam "blue boxes". Is it that they (you) don't like the color, the manufacturer, or the style, or just that it's a plastic box?
> 
> Would you be happier if the plastic were black or gray? If that's the issue, why not write a letter to Carlon and suggest they change the color of their plastic, because you don't like it?
> 
> ...


It is just a running joke about HD.

But lets say there no plastic boxes then you would use metal ones with Romex clips.:thumbsup:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

kbatku said:


> Just curious. I've seen a lot of people on here slam "blue boxes". Is it that they (you) don't like the color, the manufacturer, or the style, or just that it's a plastic box?
> 
> Would you be happier if the plastic were black or gray? If that's the issue, why not write a letter to Carlon and suggest they change the color of their plastic, because you don't like it?
> 
> ...


For me I don't like the color blue. I'm on the lookout for green and purple striped boxes (deep).

Sent from my iPad using ET Forum


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

We hate 'em because Home Depot sells 'em.

Of course, if they sold DeWalt yellow electrical boxes, that would be hack as well.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

And HD sells stuff they didn't sell to the public 25 years ago.

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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Krylon makes all things possible. 

In all honesty, I prefer Slater or Arlington for plastic boxes, but we don't usually use plastic old work boxes. For the most part we use metal switch boxes with box holders or when doing plaster, #4 wood screws. Our supply house sells Steel City, so mostly we use LX-WOWs, CWN-25s, and CXWOWs, all with romex clips. We do use plastic nail ons for new work, and those are usually slaters.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Well from what I gather you guys in the states almost exclusively use plastic boxes with NM but over here the standard is still metal boxes. There are some plastic boxes, but they don't get used that much.

Not as much room in the box but easy to fish in and out of, also easy to change out to a bigger size with a sawzall. Trying to change one of the plastic boxes we get here, to a bigger size, would be a big mess involving a lot of drywall destruction. Changing a metal box can be relatively painless. If you trash the threads and somehow can't put a #6-32 in you can just use a drywall screw or a #8-32


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

I like to use metal 1900's on kitchen counter top outlets... They tend to get the most useage... Its my homage to going above code... Plastic boxes tend to get loosey goosey after a while..


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Trying to change one of the plastic boxes we get here, to a bigger size, would be a big mess involving a lot of drywall destruction.


Never had a problem with that - you just need to learn how, assuming your boxes are the same as ours.

A single gang, you cut a tiny bit of sheetrock away with your sheetrock saw, like a kerf depth, on the side opposite of the stud. Then you pry the box away from the stud about 1/16 of an inch (1.5 mm) and cut the nails then remove the box (easier said than done sometimes, but usually pretty quick).

Enlarge the hole and replace with one of them fancy internal screwing plastic boxes (the black ones). Or, if you are cheap or hack, just cut the nail flange off any plastic 2,3,4 gang box and side screw it in place with sheetrock screws. Don't let the inspector see this (like a hack would anyway!).

Removing a two or three gang is a little different, as you have to (carefully) cut the nail flange away (horizontally), being careful not to cut any wires in the process. After the box is removed, reach in with your dikes and pull the leftover nail/flange off.

Easy peasy lemony squeezy.

The part I hate is trying to remove those godawful black metal boxes from plaster & lath jobs - the ones that stand away from the stud & have a grove to catch the lath. TRY to do that without damaging the lath! The darn things are made out of high carbon steel or titanium or something, a real booger to cut out of there without destroying the wall.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

That is where I usually bust out the keyhole saw or rotozip. I use my screwdriver and pliers and chip the plaster around the box, and carefully work at the plaster until I can get the plaster ring off. If the box is near a corner or doorway or something, then I hold it with one hand or a pair of pump pliers or needle nose or something while I am cutting it, and then use needle nose to break the lathe along the grain, and that seems to keep the rest of it intact. The house we are rewiring now was wired in a mix of knob and tube, original romex, and a good portion in ridgid with those black boxes. 3/4" of plaster too. Definitely takes a soft touch to keep the plaster in good shape, but worse comes to worse, mix up some plaster and patch it up. 

I'll have to keep that technique for removing plastic nail ons in mind. I have never had good luck doing it, but haven't run into it too often. I can say that I have side screwed plastic boxes more than a few times, but that is because our local supply house doesn't carry the good Arlington boxes, so I have to make due with what we have.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Never had a problem with that - you just need to learn how, assuming your boxes are the same as ours.
> 
> A single gang, you cut a tiny bit of sheetrock away with your sheetrock saw, like a kerf depth, on the side opposite of the stud. Then you pry the box away from the stud about 1/16 of an inch (1.5 mm) and cut the nails then remove the box (easier said than done sometimes, but usually pretty quick).
> 
> ...


Our single gang plastic boxes also have the nail flange just like the larger sizes. the ones without the flange do exist but most people, if they are going to use plastic at all, don't use them.

I actually have never had to remove one of those boxes after drywall so I don't know...though I have had to fish into one and it was a bloody cow. I'll remember your tip though.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Well from what I gather you guys in the states almost exclusively use plastic boxes with NM but over here the standard is still metal boxes. There are some plastic boxes, but they don't get used that much.
> 
> Not as much room in the box but easy to fish in and out of, also easy to change out to a bigger size with a sawzall. Trying to change one of the plastic boxes we get here, to a bigger size, would be a big mess involving a lot of drywall destruction. Changing a metal box can be relatively painless. If you trash the threads and somehow can't put a #6-32 in you can just use a drywall screw or a #8-32


Pretty amazing.

I guess since you have that rule necessitating ground screws in plastic
boxes sort of rules out one of the major advantages.

There are plenty of choices for plastic old work boxes available 
here that make swapping boxes really easy.

Just out of curiosity, I looked at the Arlington Oneboxes to see if they
were CSA approved. The metal ones are CSA approved, but apparently
the plastic ones aren't.

Just got my CSA C22.1-12 the other day. I will have to read up on 
whatever section covers boxes.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

kbatku said:


> ...
> Enlarge the hole and replace with one of them fancy internal screwing plastic boxes (the black ones). ..


Not CSA listed. Only the metal Arlington boxes are.


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

Our single gangs have internal nails, so they come out real easy. I can't imagine roughing in a house with metal boxes, but I guess that people do, huh? 

If I had to I guess I'd adapt - bitching the whole time though (boo hoo hoo!!).


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

rexowner said:


> Pretty amazing.
> 
> I guess since you have that rule necessitating ground screws in plastic
> boxes sort of rules out one of the major advantages.
> ...


Not sure if not having to ground the box is such a big advantage....as I understand you are required to ground each switch this way. For us, once the box is grounded, the switch is grounded, and no ground wire to the switch itself is needed. That's why our plastic boxes have ground screws and a metal strip going to one of the screw holes. There is no need for a big ole ground splice. Of course receptacles still need the ground wire....not sure if it's legal over there to consider the device strap the ground path for a recep.

To me the main advantage of using a plastic box is the fast install time, built in vapour barrier(some have, some don't), and extra room inside. Drywallers seem to like them too because they are easier to cut around.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Drywallers seem to like them too because they are easier to cut around.


Or cut through with their routers. 
+1 for metal boxes.


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## Lz_69 (Nov 1, 2007)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Well from what I gather you guys in the states almost exclusively use plastic boxes with NM but over here the standard is still metal boxes. There are some plastic boxes, but they don't get used that much.
> 
> Not as much room in the box but easy to fish in and out of, also easy to change out to a bigger size with a sawzall. Trying to change one of the plastic boxes we get here, to a bigger size, would be a big mess involving a lot of drywall destruction. Changing a metal box can be relatively painless. If you trash the threads and somehow can't put a #6-32 in you can just use a drywall screw or a #8-32


It's more of a regional thing since they use lots of plastic boxes out here in BC, along with metal as well. I'm sure there's 10 million plastic boxes with drywall screws holding the devices out there so your second point is nothing special either.

As for the USA plastic boxes not being CSA approved, ours have metal bonding straps in them that carry on from the bond screw to the straps of the devices. In theory it a little extra protection to prevent a metal cover plate or the screws from becoming energized.


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## jakeparr (Jul 10, 2011)

The only time I've seen plastic boxes in my area are those airtight boxes for use on outside walls, the have the foam that goes against the drywall to prevent drafts

They also kinda look better if you know the romex is going to be exposed


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Lz_69 said:


> ..I'm sure there's 10 million plastic boxes with drywall screws holding the devices out there so your second point is nothing special either...


Apparently, code does not prohibit using drywall screws through the side
of a blue box in Canada, as long as it is for old work.



> CEC 12-3010
> (5) Mounting nails or screws shall not project into nor pass through the
> interior of an outlet box...
> (6) This Rule shall not apply to boxes and fittings installed after the studs,
> joists or structural units have been concealed


In the US, 314.23(B)(1) makes no such provision for old work.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

In a resi application a plastic box is easier to work with period. Ive never had issue with screw not fitting in the 6-32 hole unless some hack over tightened or used improper screw and that does happen. No bonding the box, easier to remove for fishing or replacing with larger gang. Would never use in commercial, metal all the way. Use to hate plastic untill I started doing a little resi.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

caseyelectric said:


> ....Ive never had issue with screw not fitting in the 6-32 hole unless some hack over tightened or used improper screw and that does happen. .......


So the drywallers in your area don't use routers?

I have yet to wire a house where some zip-happy rocker manages to run the router bit right into the device mounting hole, making it large enough for a Volkswagen to fit into.


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## caseyelectric (Oct 19, 2008)

I have not seen a roto zip in 6 years. That is too high tech for the sheetrockers here. Roto zip is least of my worries, I have to buy JUMBO covers for everything because it looks like they cut dev ice holes with hammer and bush axe! And long screws because half the time the sheetrock isnt even screwed to the studs. My devices actually pull the rock in! But i do know what you are talkin about 480-have seen that along with the wires being chewed up.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

captkirk said:


> loosey goosey





kbatku said:


> Easy peasy lemony squeezy.


Having trouble trying to find the right words:laughing:


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

Ive had the rotozip guy cut off one of the screw hole tabs, that must have taken some force.

As well, the standard gangable iberville 1104s here have mounting holes inside that are on an angle.

for old work, i use a stud finder to find the stud, cut the rectangle out as if the box was mounted to the stud, cut in the romex that ive fished down, maneuvere the 1104 into the hole, and 2 drywall screws through the angled mounting holes into the stud. The 1104 stays nice and tight to the stud without it going all wonky because of the angled holes. Best way to old work a box imo


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

My old boss liked to use the gray P&S pop in boxes. He (and myself) hate the blue Carlon boxes not because they are from Home Depot but because the don't have quick clicks (So you can just bang the 6x32 in), screw holes are not even threaded and are a bit bigger in size than the P&S boxes.


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## mikeh (Jan 17, 2012)

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...bnw=158&start=14&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:28,s:14

fiberglass boxes for me


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> Well from what I gather you guys in the states almost exclusively use plastic boxes with NM but over here the standard is still metal boxes. There are some plastic boxes, but they don't get used that much.
> 
> Not as much room in the box but easy to fish in and out of, also easy to change out to a bigger size with a sawzall. Trying to change one of the plastic boxes we get here, to a bigger size, would be a big mess involving a lot of drywall destruction. Changing a metal box can be relatively painless. If you trash the threads and somehow can't put a #6-32 in you can just use a drywall screw or a #8-32


Actually here in B.C. we use plastic boxes quite a bit,mostly the ones made by Nutek with the foam gasket for outside walls. I personally prefer metal though.The gasket ones are expensive but are quick and easy to install,compared to a metal box with a condom.


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

The quick-clik is why I didn't like the P&S boxes. It never seemed to hold the screw tight enough.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

Worked for a guy who insisted we use metal boxes for residential because he didn't like the plastic ones. One day he asked me why I used those little green screws.

Sure enough, for 25 years this guy had never bonded his boxes.:no:

Guess what. Still doesn't.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

rexowner said:


> Apparently, code does not prohibit using* drywall screws through the side*
> of a blue box in Canada, as long as it is for old work.
> 
> 
> ...


That's weird, we can't do that, but if you use this then it's ok??? 

Anyhow, I'm working with Arlington as well to add a third screw in there to stablize and avoid the weebly wobbly over time in high use boxes. For now, I sneak a 3rd screw in there if I think inspector is not looking that day and put tape over it (mostly kitchens)


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Cletis said:


> That's weird, we can't do that, but if you use this then it's ok???
> 
> Anyhow, I'm working with Arlington as well to add a third screw in there to stablize and avoid the weebly wobbly over time in high use boxes. For now, I sneak a 3rd screw in there if I think inspector is not looking that day and put tape over it (mostly kitchens)


I think the theory is the arlington holds the head of the screw recessed enough
in the black plastic that the edge can't cut anything, although I am sure 
there are millions of Carlons installed with drywall screws where the electrons
didn't start spontaneously popping out of the wire.

Seems to me that two screws should be plenty for the one gang unless the
stud is really rotten or something. It's the other side of
the 3-4 gangs that seem wobbly to me where you could put a madison
in if it was really an issue.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*pic*



rexowner said:


> I think the theory is the arlington holds the head of the screw recessed enough
> in the black plastic that the edge can't cut anything, although I am sure
> there are millions of Carlons installed with drywall screws where the electrons
> didn't start spontaneously popping out of the wire.
> ...


Actually, this is splitting hairs a bit. But I noticed the ones above compared to carlons have screws set back just a little bit further on stud which gives it a more stable feel.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I really wish we could get those boxes locally, but the supply houses we use just don't carry them. I got a demo of that Arlington old work One Box or whatever they called it, and loved it, but when I went to order some from the supply house I got the box from they said that didn't stock them, and it would be special order.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> I really wish we could get those boxes locally, but the supply houses we use just don't carry them. I got a demo of that Arlington old work One Box or whatever they called it, and loved it, but when I went to order some from the supply house I got the box from they said that didn't stock them, and it would be special order.


Just get some at Amazon then 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1F7W85CRHWRQP99WZCTZ


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*oops*

Ooops 

Try this one. About $2 per 

http://www.munroelectric.com/silver...xes...Covers,Arlington...Other.Boxes...Covers


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## coon88 (Dec 9, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I really wish we could get those boxes locally, but the supply houses we use just don't carry them. I got a demo of that Arlington old work One Box or whatever they called it, and loved it, but when I went to order some from the supply house I got the box from they said that didn't stock them, and it would be special order.


Do they stock allied boxes sb-1,sb-2,etc


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Does nobody use allied fiberglass boxes. That is all we use. 45 cents. Strong as it gets


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

kbatku said:


> Just curious. I've seen a lot of people on here slam "blue boxes". Is it that they (you) don't like the color, the manufacturer, or the style, or just that it's a plastic box?
> 
> Would you be happier if the plastic were black or gray? If that's the issue, why not write a letter to Carlon and suggest they change the color of their plastic, because you don't like it?
> 
> ...


4SD with a ring..... two screw connectors for the romex...
1 5/8" drywall screws to attach to the stud.

works for me.

for cut in boxes, 3 1/2" deep steel bowers, that use battleships, not wings.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hey Cletis, thanks for the link. I am going to see if the bossman will order some up, since those seem like a heck of a lot nicer box than the Slater plastic ones we have been using. My biggest complaint about the Carlon and Slater boxes are the cable clamps. They just suck. Those Allied boxes look like they have a decent solution, and I think are priced comparatively with the plastic boxes we have been getting, so I might check those out, but I am a big fan of Arlington. Everything of theirs that I have used has turned out great and its all really user friendly. I also like that the screws are set back in the box enough to allow for more options for mounting. In a lot of renovations around here they are now putting rigid insulation on the inside of houses, so they don't have to tear out all the siding and everything, and it can make mounting boxes...interesting. 

Hey Fulthrotl, what are "battleships"? I haven't heard that term before.

*Edited for my ahhhsum speeling


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Hey Fulthrotl, what are "battleships"? I haven't heard that term before.
> 
> *Edited for my ahhhsum speeling


it's the flat sheet metal stamping that you twist into two pieces,
and slide in the sides of the cut in box.....

when you look at them, they are supposed to look like battleships,
at least that was what my drunk of a journeyman said when i was
a muppet.

the name stuck.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I gotcha. We call those box holders or Madison straps.


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## Briancraig81 (May 25, 2007)

Cletis said:


> That's weird, we can't do that, but if you use this then it's ok???
> 
> Anyhow, I'm working with Arlington as well to add a third screw in there to stablize and avoid the weebly wobbly over time in high use boxes. For now, I sneak a 3rd screw in there if I think inspector is not looking that day and put tape over it (mostly kitchens)


I was told unless the box is made by the factory for having a screw through the inside (Like the Arlington's) you can't do it and be code compliant. Also, screwing a screw from the inside of the box more than likely doesn't make it UL rated anymore :whistling2:


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## kbatku (Oct 18, 2011)

We call them battleships too (because they supposedly look like a WWI battleship). Some people call them "F's".


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Use these


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