# Got my first red tag (help with exceptions AFCI)



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What edition of the NEC are you working with?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> What edition of the NEC are you working with?


It's a local code (requirement), from the AHJ. (I assume)


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

You stated it's particular to that specific jurisdiction, so NEC exceptions wouldn't matter much. Petition the building department.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

The process for local amendments in Florida is so stringent (by design) that nobody has amendments. 

Florida is on the '14 edition I believe.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Get out the book, look at 210 requirements for AFCI. We are on the 2107. I'd have to dig out the 14 book and look. I think you may find under receptacle replacement based upon 210 requirements that once you replace the receptacle at a location listed in 210 requiring AFCI that you have to add AFCI protection. If its a new circuit in a location listed within 210 that requires AFCI protection then you have to have AFCI.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> Get out the book, look at 210 requirements for AFCI. We are on the 2107. I'd have to dig out the 14 book and look. I think you may find under receptacle replacement based upon 210 requirements that once you replace the receptacle at a location listed in 210 requiring AFCI that you have to add AFCI protection. If its a new circuit in a location listed within 210 that requires AFCI protection then you have to have AFCI.


Not in the kitchen

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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

New Jersey has its reno code that may exempt this, but 2014 210.12 (A) lists dwelling unit kitchens for arc fault protection. 406.4(D)(4) relating to replacement receptacles says that arc fault protection specified elsewhere in the code shall be installed.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Djea3 said:


> In Kitchens we install 2 GFCI circuits for counter top use, dedicated refrigerator, DW, Disposal (usually air switched), and MW circuits. That is 6 120V circuits all 12 ga new runs when possible or necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> ?


He said counter outlets and dedicated circuits for appliances

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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

210.12 says devices or outlets in dwelling kitchens. New circuits to 120v appliances will need it or counter receptacles. If any receptacles were replaced, GFCI or not, still require arc fault protection.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

210.52. (4)

Countertop outlets shall not be considered as the receptacle outlets required by 210.52 A


I think this may exempt that.

NJ is still on 2014 and I've never Arc faulted countertop outlets let alone dedicated circuits for appliances like micros,DW....fridge....

Nor would I


ETA; I'm looking at 2017 edition as I don't have 2014

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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

trentonmakes said:


> 210.52. (4)
> 
> Countertop outlets shall not be considered as the receptacle outlets required by 210.52 A
> 
> ...


210.52 is where one finds where the receptacle outlets are required. It has zero to do with AFCI protection.
210.12 where one finds the locations that require AFCI protection


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> 210.52 is where one finds where the receptacle outlets are required. It has zero to do with AFCI protection.
> 210.12 where one finds the locations that require AFCI protection


On the 210.12 did they mention if extending a exsting circuit they do required AFCI ? but at the same time if that receptacle outlet location did NOT move that still have to be bring up to current code or still extempt on your state regulations ?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Combine the dishwasher and disposal onto the same circuit. They don't need to be on separate circuits anyway. One 20 amp circuit for both is standard practice in my area and it's never a problem.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> On the 210.12 did they mention if extending a exsting circuit they do required AFCI ? but at the same time if that receptacle outlet location did NOT move that still have to be bring up to current code or still extempt on your state regulations ?


The exception (2014) was that if you extended less than 6ft without adding outlets other than what was there than no AFCI needed.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

MTW said:


> Combine the dishwasher and disposal onto the same circuit. They don't need to be on separate circuits anyway. One 20 amp circuit for both is standard practice in my area and it's never a problem.


If I recall ONLY two circuits are REQUIRED in a kitchen even if you have all the possible appliances! The refer doesn't even need its own from what I can find (still required by most AHJ). I still believe best practice is to dedicate each appliance and have two gfci receptacle circuits in a modern kitchen. When panels are full I share Disposal and DW.

I am told by another AHJ that we can not use receptacle AFCI with Dishwasher or Disposal, or Microwave they MUST be at breakers. I can't find that in any code but that is the REQUIREMENT in their inspection. They don't want clients to have to look inside a cabinet, only the panel!

However it still leaves the issue of the dedicated refrigerator. The breaker panel is outside or would be behind the refer unless I add another gang to a box and use a dead front AFCi device routed to the refer. Regardless, we all KNOW that there will be nuisance trips and spoiled meat. So I guess that means needing an alarmed device as well? That is not going to go well no matter what.

Strangely in another AHJ I moved a panel and rewired a compete kitchen and there was no requirement for AFCI at all! That condo was 100% EMT and MC though. GFCI at countertops only. 

Most telling is that there is NO definition of Nuisance Tripping of Breakers in NEC 100 and as I understand each manufacturer defines its own AFCI protection methods, algorithms and chips. No standardization at all. Stinks to high hell.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I am told by another AHJ that we can not use receptacle AFCI with Dishwasher or Disposal, or Microwave they MUST be at breakers. I can't find that in any code but that is the REQUIREMENT in their inspection. They don't want clients to have to look inside a cabinet, only the panel!

It has to do with being readily accessible. So with the dishwasher we have been using dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers with a receptacle in the adjacent cabinet for it to plug into.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

*Supplying OUTLETS and DEVICES*

Seem to be key words. 
I think we are going to look at hard wiring the appliances where possible. This ends the requirement of the code. Certainly possible with disposal and Dishwasher.

It seems that the code is designed to protect property where the device had degraded and causes a problem with arcing. Remember this was the entire purpose in mandating AFCI in the beginning.....slum lords not replacing damaged and worn devices. Then the NEC decided to change the purpose altogether.

Meanwhile I find statistics that vary more than 100% in the number of fires that would be preventable (meaning they are just statements not stats). Even at worst it is less than .003% per year of the total homes in the USA. This means that the average home would see a fire caused by an arc fault in about 300 years. Much longer than the lifespan of an AFCI device or the home. would also guess that those that have preventable fires were not wired to today's standards to begin with and that many are on Alum wiring.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Hardwiring 120v appliances in these areas listed with that section of 210 requiring AFCI won't get you anything. Look at the definition of outlet. Its the point of which current is taken, not receptacle.


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## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

Here's a link to help clarify the 2014 code requirements already posted on this forum, might help, might not, there are two pdf links in the post. 
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=173958

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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

nrp3 said:


> Hardwiring 120v appliances in these areas listed with that section of 210 requiring AFCI won't get you anything. Look at the definition of outlet. Its the point of which current is taken, not receptacle.


I reread the code involved. Actually it uses two words...."receptacle outlet" which defines a specific type of outlet therefore is limiting in scope. If that was the only statement there would be no argument, a hard wired condition would exempt.

Then I reread as a whole. Unfortunately the code does state "shall" then gives option 1 or 2 as to method.

Interestingly enough the code itself stated this way prohibits the use of a dead face device for afci protection on a circuit. By definition it must be an afci receptacle style outlet if not a breaker in the panel.


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## Mulder (Sep 11, 2010)

Djea3 said:


> I reread the code involved. Actually it uses two words...."receptacle outlet" which defines a specific type of outlet therefore is limiting in scope. If that was the only statement there would be no argument, a hard wired condition would exempt.
> 
> Then I reread as a whole. Unfortunately the code does state "shall" then gives option 1 or 2 as to method.
> 
> Interestingly enough the code itself stated this way prohibits the use of a dead face device for afci protection on a circuit. By definition it must be an afci receptacle style outlet if not a breaker in the panel.


NEC 210.12(A) does not use the word "receptacle". It states all "outlets" in the locations listed. Kitchens is one of the locations listed.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

trentonmakes said:


> 210.52. (4)
> 
> Countertop outlets shall not be considered as the receptacle outlets required by 210.52 A
> 
> ...


NJ has a rehab code and amendments. The amendments is where it strikes out the wording for AFCI in kitchens. New or old. I can’t remember but I think laundry circuit and bathroom also. 

The Rehab code allows panel changes and circuit extensions without AFCI.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Djea3 said:


> Seem to be key words.
> I think we are going to look at hard wiring the appliances where possible. This ends the requirement of the code. Certainly possible with disposal and Dishwasher.





nrp3 said:


> Hardwiring 120v appliances in these areas listed with that section of 210 requiring AFCI won't get you anything. Look at the definition of outlet. Its the point of which current is taken, not receptacle.


I always tell Electricians to remember :

Receptacles are outlets BUT not all outlets are Receptacles


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Canadian AFCI code is strictly for receptacles. Hard wired appliances do not require AFCI protection. Does that also apply as per the NEC?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> Canadian AFCI code is strictly for receptacles. Hard wired appliances do not require AFCI protection.


Which makes absolutely no sense. The AFCI is for the building wiring, not the appliance connected to it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Which makes absolutely no sense. The AFCI is for the building wiring, not the appliance connected to it.


There are two types of electricians - those that knowingly don't install AFCI protection, and those who lie about it.


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

So, does a disconnect for a mini split require AFCI?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

five.five-six said:


> So, does a disconnect for a mini split require AFCI?


No, the AFCI rules are for 120 volt circuits only.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> No, the AFCI rules are for 120 volt circuits only.


I have seen 15A 120V minisplits.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I have seen 15A 120V minisplits.


I see.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Djea3 said:


> today. This was a kitchen remodel. The only electrical change was the receptacles and adding one new Microwave circuit. We of coarse placed new appliances receptacles for the Disp and DW. We made sure that all receptacles were GFCI covered as they were when built. THis home had all 12/3 shared neutral.
> 
> Unlike other Jurisdictions this one requires AFCI on EVERYTHING, everywhere Except the Bath! Even the Inspector knew it was BS and would be nothing but trouble for the customer and do nothing but increase costs.Still a red tag.
> 
> ...



Well....
You bid a permit job like a non permit job and got called out on it. We all know AFCI is bull$hit. Until you get a seat on a code making panel, take the customers money and install code compliant kitchen wiring for them. If you don't want the nuisance problems, there are methods to handle that after the inspector signs off on the job:whistling2:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> Well....
> You bid a permit job like a non permit job and got called out on it. We all know AFCI is bull$hit. Until you get a seat on a code making panel, take the customers money and install code compliant kitchen wiring for them. If you don't want the nuisance problems, there are methods to handle that after the inspector signs off on the job:whistling2:


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> MTW said:
> 
> 
> > No, the AFCI rules are for 120 volt circuits only.
> ...


What’s a mini split? You mean an AC unit?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> eddy current said:
> 
> 
> > Canadian AFCI code is strictly for receptacles. Hard wired appliances do not require AFCI protection.
> ...



Agreed. 

Our code says receptacles rated at 120 volt, 20 amp or less. 

Exceptions are kitchen counter and island receptacles, fridges in kitchens, bathroom receptacles and single receptacles for sump pumps.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> What’s a mini split? You mean an AC unit?


A mini-split is a smaller split system. The condensing unit is usually inverter based and the air handler is usually mounted on an interior wall.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

eddy current said:


> What’s a mini split? You mean an AC unit?


Here is a pic of the inside and outside units


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

You feed the outdoor unit and then run an extension cord through the wall to the indoor unit. :vs_laugh:

Maybe they should be on an arc fault:surprise:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I have seen 15A 120V minisplits.


I have a couple three of them around my own house. The other four are 240 volt models. They are outdated, but we here have been putting in mini split systems since probably 1980 or so. I put mine in around 83, they are Mitsubishi's . I ran a 14-2 to the compressors, and another 14-2 was required for the fan coil units. (I've also done hundreds of installs where I put both on one circuit, but hey, these were for my own house so I did it like the installation book called for). 


Now all units, even the 9000 btu ones from that same company are 240 volt rated both the indoor unit and the outdoor unit, and you just need to run one circuit. The fan coil units are fed off the compressor branch circuit. Much better machines now than the old days. We just recently replaced one of the bedroom systems, with a newer Mitsubishi variable speed drive and dc motor. Couple of the others will be right behind that one.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Which makes absolutely no sense. The AFCI is for the building wiring, not the appliance connected to it.


The AFCI is for the exposed cord as well. Mainly extension cords being the perceived problem.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

*Who said that?*



HackWork said:


> Which makes absolutely no sense. The AFCI is for the building wiring, not the appliance connected to it.


If AFCI was for building wiring it would HAVE to be at the service panel. Because the code allows protection from the first outlet it proves that the requirement is to protect the devices, luminaires and appliances, NOT THE WIRING. Remember that originally it was to protect the devices and their connections to the wiring or failed contacts at the plug.We have moved so very far beyond that now.

With regard to the equipment that is being powered by the circuit, they are required to have specific protections in accordance to UL listings. Garbage disposals and dishwashers are supposed to have protection against anything that could cause shock or fire. We are therefore having to pay multiple times for the same protection, plus the AFC and GFC protection actually uses electricity in its process. We pay for it monthly.

Recent studies in FLorida using random sample techniques showed that 80% of GFCI receps have failed and are no longer working. I tested mine this week and guess what...I have to replace them, 60% were bad. No point in trusting the rest.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Djea3 said:


> If AFCI was for building wiring it would HAVE to be at the service panel. *Because the code allows protection from the first outlet it proves that the requirement is to protect the devices, luminaires and appliances, NOT THE WIRING.* Remember that originally it was to protect the devices and their connections to the wiring or failed contacts at the plug.We have moved so very far beyond that now.



Not sure of your code but here if the first outlet provides the arc-fault protection, the wiring between the supply and that first outlet must be in armored cable, metal or not-metallic conduit or tubing.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Djea3 said:


> Recent studies in FLorida using random sample techniques showed that 80% of GFCI receps have failed and are no longer working. I tested mine this week and guess what...I have to replace them, 60% were bad. No point in trusting the rest.


That means mountains of AFCI and DF breakers will be worthless and inoperable too now, and not just in Florida although it's much worse in Florida due to lightning surges.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

joe-nwt said:


> *Not sure of your code *but here if the first outlet provides the arc-fault protection, the wiring between the supply and that first outlet must be in armored cable, metal or not-metallic conduit or tubing.


I'm sure of it.Annnnd...you are correct .

The way I see it , by the time you pay for the AFCI outlet receptacles
all that armored cable , you may as well just put the freaking breaker in and
skip all that other requirements. Less labor intensive and probably cheaper
(of depends on how big the house is.)


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I meant to ask...what's a *"Red Tag"*
errrrrr.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Just do as the fearless wonderful leader and the regime tell you to do , and put the stinking AFCI breaker in . Long live the fearless leaders!


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

there's an echo in here


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## emeram (Mar 2, 2016)

Does anyone get a lot of complains about the afci trips on a microwave cct?

It happened to me a few times and in different house/panels.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

emeram said:


> Does anyone get a lot of complains about the afci trips on a microwave cct?
> 
> It happened to me a few times and in different house/panels.


I've investigated microwaves, refrigerators, washing machines, coffee makers and other small appliances causing AFCI tripping. These were all in new houses with new appliances, so my conclusion was that the AFCIs are the problem, not the appliance since I could not get any of those appliances to trip a GFCI receptacle.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

It still can be an adventure. Cell phone chargers and appliances that may not have been tested by breaker manufacturers. I haven't had much trouble of late, but it pops up from time to time. With remodeling, you need to watch out for damaged wiring and neutrals tied from multiple circuits tied together in ganged switch boxes. New wiring you can dial out the wiring errors up front.


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

emeram said:


> Does anyone get a lot of complains about the afci trips on a microwave cct?
> 
> It happened to me a few times and in different house/panels.


Yep...



JoeSparky said:


> there are methods to handle that after the inspector signs off on the job:whistling2:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

nrp3 said:


> It still can be an adventure. Cell phone chargers and appliances that may not have been tested by breaker manufacturers. I haven't had much trouble of late, but it pops up from time to time. With remodeling, you need to watch out for damaged wiring and neutrals tied from multiple circuits tied together in ganged switch boxes. New wiring you can dial out the wiring errors up front.


I don't think I've had a residential remodel , (where the rest of the
house was in *knob & tube* - _I assume this is what your referencing_) where I didn't wind up with having afci problems
on my newly run circuits .


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## emeram (Mar 2, 2016)

JoeSparky said:


> Well....
> You bid a permit job like a non permit job and got called out on it. We all know AFCI is bull$hit. Until you get a seat on a code making panel, take the customers money and install code compliant kitchen wiring for them. If you don't want the nuisance problems, there are methods to handle that after the inspector signs off on the job:whistling2:



But what is with the insurance, so if someone take the afci out and put a regular breaker in and the house burns down, even the breaker wasn't the issue?
would it be covered or do they come back to you, if they figured that the panel is against the code?


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

emeram said:


> But what is with the insurance, so if someone take the afci out and put a regular breaker in and the house burns down, even the breaker wasn't the issue?
> would it be covered or do they come back to you, if they figured that the panel is against the code?



:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
:no::no::no::no:

That $hit would never prevent a fire. It's all about $$$afety. 
Let me know when this search comes up with the results you are looking for. In the USA for resi, bathrooms, outside, unfinished areas and 240v circuits do not require AFCI. Prove that this fire was not caused by one of the above circuits run through the areas that AFCI is required. Watch 



 and explain how an AFCI will prevent a fire.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

There are two types of electricians - those that remove AFCI breakers after the fact, and those that lie about it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

emeram said:


> But what is with the insurance, so if someone take the afci out and put a regular breaker in and the house burns down, even the breaker wasn't the issue?
> would it be covered or do they come back to you, if they figured that the panel is against the code?


How would they even prove it? 

There are literally billions more non-AFCI breakers than AFCI in all the existing housing stock in this nation. The actual amount of fires that AFCI breakers prevent is so small as to be statistically insignificant, if those statistics even exist.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> :no::no::no::no:
> 
> That $hit would never prevent a fire. It's all about $$$afety.
> Let me know when this search comes up with the results you are looking for. In the USA for resi, bathrooms, outside, unfinished areas and 240v circuits do not require AFCI. Prove that this fire was not caused by one of the above circuits run through the areas that AFCI is required. Watch this video and explain how an AFCI will prevent a fire.


I'm gonna start to use those Cutler Hammer panels & breakers.
Anything that reduces nuisance tripping is okay in my book.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

emeram said:


> But what is with the insurance, so if someone take the afci out and put a regular breaker in and the house burns down, even the breaker wasn't the issue?
> 
> would it be covered or do they come back to you, if they figured that the panel is against the code?


My house has questionable equipment grounding fed by a 50A service and is 55 years old. Still works great. 

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