# Anyone work on a cremation machine?



## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

I've never worked on one but I have worked on boilers, pressure washers, corn dryers, you name it with no clue how it functions, other than "it worked yesterday, and today it won't start." I usually try and keep the operator within earshot to try and grill them on the sequence of operations so I have at least some sort of clue on how it's supposed to run.

Even though it's old, is there a phone number on it still? No matter how old a piece of equipment is, I'll still call the phone number if I see one on it or I'll try and dig the company up on the internet. Sometimes they'll have some old timer that can tell you exactly how they're supposed to work because he's built them for years. 

I can't count how many times I've had to reverse engineer something and draw out the control circuit because the schematic was long gone.

A megger would help narrow down your wiring faults, if you can pull all the wires off the relay coils. 

Good luck.


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

erics37 said:


> Got a service call today from a funeral home with their retort not working. The machine is fairly old; from the late 80s I believe. Went in, found a blown control fuse. Started tracing down a fault, eventually found a wire pair in a piece of flex going to an air flow switch that had been rubbed through to the copper and grounded out. Replaced these wires, which took care of the fault, popped a new fuse in and tried to fire it up. Some of the controls ran but the blower motor would not start, which prevents a bunch of other things from starting too. Eventually I discovered a mechanical timing relay not working - its contacts never changed state even after timing out. Temporarily bypassed it, fired it up again, everything ran for about 15 seconds and then the control fuse blew again. Traced down another section of wiring, found ANOTHER wire with insulation rubbed through, replaced it, tried again. Everything started up like before, but somewhere the control power isn't getting to another relay. Most likely one of the safety devices (door limit switch, overtemp thermostat, etc) but I ran out of time by then. They had a control diagram but unfortunately it's been messed with for years and has had parts replaced and/or bypassed so that it is hardly recognizable  I am also one to be skeptical of multiple things failing at once. They just cremated an extremely obese body last night and it worked fine, but today it wouldn't fire up. Going to bring my apprentice with me tomorrow and work on tracing out the control circuit from beginning to end to figure out what is preventing it from starting up and where it is faulted out. Oh yeah! One more thing. The blower motor's overload relay contacts change state depending on which way you wiggle the block :laughing:


Hmmm.... It's definitely hard on my end to give u any solid advice with your listed info. Could it be the control transformer getting weak?? It sounds like you know what your doing so far, you just needed more time. I would definitely replace the overload relay if possible and just be methodical about it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The only cremation oven I ever worked on was at an animal shelter, and that thing was huge. They'd save the animals in a walk-in freezer and cremate them when they had a furnace load. I guess that saved them money. 

Like any other industrial equipment, although the operating principles will be the same, the controls arrangement likely varies pretty wildly. Sounds like you have a problem on your hands only cured by time tracing things out.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Extremely obese people will burn way hotter. Perhaps there was a thermostat or thermal switch that malfunctioned and allowed the unit to over heat and burn things up from the heat 

Just a thought


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## EC2253 (Mar 7, 2008)

Was he only half done?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> Extremely obese people will burn way hotter. Perhaps there was a thermostat or thermal switch that malfunctioned and allowed the unit to over heat and burn things up from the heat
> 
> Just a thought


This is one of the best postings, I've read in a while. :laughing:
It's probably similar to the heat-treat ovens, I used to work on. 
What is the maximum temperature, two thousand degrees?
The over-temp switch, probably worked, but the fat fuel burned a lot 
hotter. :whistling2:
The exhaust blower kept running.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Eric,

You are a better worker then I am.

They would have called me on the radio or cell and said "go to cremation oven, and fix".

I would have said "no".

"go to cremation oven and fix, its broke"

"no, not me".

Maybe got fired, but either way I am not working on something like that. 

Too much bad carma just floating around in there, waiting to attach itself to a nice guy like me.

I am pretty sure you were safe though.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

lefleuron said:


> Eric, You are a better worker then I am. They would have called me on the radio or cell and said "go to cremation oven, and fix". I would have said "no". "go to cremation oven and fix, its broke" "no, not me". Maybe got fired, but either way I am not working on something like that. Too much bad carma just floating around in there, waiting to attach itself to a nice guy like me. I am pretty sure you were safe though.


I hear you. I was called to a funeral home and had to work in the embalming room. They weren't doing anything, but oh the smell and the thoughts that run thru your head.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

I dunno, I hear that people are dieing to get into that field...



:grin:
Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Jraef, please take this more seriously, it's a grave matter.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Talk about bad Karma, what about the guys who said they had to wire up "The Electric Chair" !! Had an instructor that told me that fib.

I once did a job in a Casket factory.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I work in the local funeral home from time to time. My family is their customer and vice versa. The owner's got a good sense of humor. I've had to work in the embalming room too. No one there thankfully, still gives me the willies. He has one of those GE low voltage switching panels for all the lighting in the main part of the business.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I was working in one ward of a hospital when a patient in the room I was working in died. The nurses just covered him up. I said I'm not working in here, there reply was the obvious "he's not gonna bother you". I said "no". I'm not working in there. They finally moved him to another room. I'm thinking "I don't want to die in this hospital, they'll just store me next to the dumpster".


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe it's because I'm an EMT and deal with dead bodies on a semi-regular basis, but I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a dead body. They aren't going to bother you. As an EMT I actually have to work on the patient and handle the body. As an electrician they aren't expecting you to do an examination. So what, there's a body in the room you're working in. It really isn't a big deal. I think some people watch too many zombie movies or horror movies. In reality the body is just gonna lie there and mind their own business.

We work for a couple of funeral homes and crematoriums. All of the times I've been to any of them I have never been up close and personal with a body. They always know we are coming and make sure that our work area is clear. At the crematoriums there are always big cardboard boxes lined up in the cooler waiting their turn, but you never actually see anything.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> Maybe it's because I'm an EMT and deal with dead bodies on a semi-regular basis, but I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a dead body. They aren't going to bother you. As an EMT I actually have to work on the patient and handle the body. As an electrician they aren't expecting you to do an examination. So what, there's a body in the room you're working in. It really isn't a big deal. I think some people watch too many zombie movies or horror movies. In reality the body is just gonna lie there and mind their own business.
> 
> We work for a couple of funeral homes and crematoriums. All of the times I've been to any of them I have never been up close and personal with a body. They always know we are coming and make sure that our work area is clear. At the crematoriums there are always big cardboard boxes lined up in the cooler waiting their turn, but you never actually see anything.


 See,

In my small branch of the electrical world, we believe in Magic, Bad Luck, 

Karma, Spooks, and Superstition.

How else do you explain things that "magically" work when you open a cabinet door?

Or the guy who refuses to work on over-head cranes on a Tuesday?

Or the guy who says "boy, its been an easy day!", then you get 6 call outs in 10 minutes?

No, I know I need my good Mojo. And that why I am not going near any dead people, or working on your creepy Easy Bake oven.:no:


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## bostongtp (Apr 9, 2014)

EBFD6 said:


> Maybe it's because I'm an EMT and deal with dead bodies on a semi-regular basis, but I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a dead body. They aren't going to bother you. As an EMT I actually have to work on the patient and handle the body. As an electrician they aren't expecting you to do an examination. So what, there's a body in the room you're working in. It really isn't a big deal. I think some people watch too many zombie movies or horror movies. In reality the body is just gonna lie there and mind their own business.
> 
> We work for a couple of funeral homes and crematoriums. All of the times I've been to any of them I have never been up close and personal with a body. They always know we are coming and make sure that our work area is clear. At the crematoriums there are always big cardboard boxes lined up in the cooler waiting their turn, but you never actually see anything.



To each his own. No one means any harm, they're just stating their opinion. I too might feel a little uncomfortable in a situation like that, but I would get the job done. You work with that stuff all the time so your immune to it, it's nothing.

People are cracking some jokes but it's all in good fun, no one is being malicious and certainly no one is demeaning your industry.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

erics37 said:


> Got a service call today from a funeral home with their retort not working. The machine is fairly old; from the late 80s I believe.
> 
> Went in, found a blown control fuse. Started tracing down a fault, eventually found a wire pair in a piece of flex going to an air flow switch that had been rubbed through to the copper and grounded out. Replaced these wires, which took care of the fault, popped a new fuse in and tried to fire it up. Some of the controls ran but the blower motor would not start, which prevents a bunch of other things from starting too.
> 
> ...


If it was a "cut rate" funeral home then most "obese" bodies will not allow the door to close all the way. The resultant arcing of the door circuitry will cause many other problems. The blower motor...purging motor, will cause their o/l contacts to become confused, and make and break intermittently........Oh, I give up.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

JRaef said:


> I dunno, I hear that people are dieing to get into that field...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Big John said:


> Jraef, please take this more seriously, it's a grave matter.


Yeah we went back to finish this job today. It quickly escalated into "bad pun hour."

Started off with, "We better get this thing working. The bodies are just stacking up."

Then, "We need to get this thing running, people are lining up at the door."

A few more that were kind of hit and miss.

We decided we had gone too far when, "Is this what Auschwitz smelled like?" came out :laughing:

Anyway we got this thing fired up today (ha!). So yesterday, if you recall, we had two separate wiring faults in the control circuit, both just old wires rubbed through to the copper and grounded out. We also had the timing relay issue.

I put in a new timing relay and tested that portion of the circuit; it worked great. Then we tried running it again. It got a little further along in the sequence but then blew the control fuse AGAIN! So we decided that there was some portion of the circuit with another fault in it that didn't get energized until later on in the startup sequence. That gave us a place to start.

It was solidly grounded so we ohmed out portions of the circuit and isolated it to a wire inside a piece of flex that was lying directly on top of the firebox. The whole thing is heat shielded internally but when you're cooking bodies at 2000 degrees it probably still gets pretty warm up top. Sure enough, we pulled the wires out and they were totally melted down. Ran a new piece of flex (different route) and put new wires in and crossed our fingers.

Started the machine up again...... voila!!!!! It worked! It went through the whole sequence and started up great, and we let it run for 20 minutes or so while we ate lunch. All told, there were 4 separate issues (3 faults and a bad timing relay). I'm amazed this thing had even worked at all in the recent past.

On a side note, the front door of this thing has an observation port. I opened it up while it was running to see what it looked like in there. Holy sh!t  It looked like a ****ing space shuttle launch in there. Complete inferno, it was crazy.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Hmm.. Didn't lose your appetite

Good job on isolating and conquering


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Morbid curiosity's killing me. What is the programmed sequence of events? :blink:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Fredman said:


> Morbid curiosity's killing me. What is the programmed sequence of events? :blink:


As I mentioned, it is a 30 year old machine or so I think. Most of the sequencing is done with mechanical timers and timing relays.

Basically, when it is time to fire it up, the operator goes over to the control panel. There are four timing switches, all based on a little 120 volt motor operating a little clockwork gear kind of set up, with a set of N.O. and N.C. contacts.

First, the operator sets all the timer dials: afterburner (which is a smaller burner at the back end of the retort that is used to "preheat" the firebox); ignition burner; cremation burner, and a master timer. The operator first sets the master timer for the overall burn time, usually 3-4 hours depending on the size of the body. Then they set the afterburner timer, the ignition timer, and the cremation timer. How they choose to set these is probably based on experience. After the timers are set, they hit the main Control Power switch and a Pollution Control switch.

The control power switch powers up the master timer, which allows control power to activate a blower motor (for venting out the roof) and a set of flame detectors to make sure the gas supply ignites properly. It also activates a digital thermostat that was added more recently, which they set to about 1900 degrees. It will kill power and shut down the burn if it gets too hot. There is also an air switch in the blower ductwork to ensure that the blower is in fact moving air and if it is not, it will also kill power and shut down the burn.

The Pollution Control switch activates a "smog detection" apparatus which has an optical transmitter and receiver located on opposite sides of the chimney stack. The stack has a glass window on both sides which the smog detector looks through to monitor the exhaust content. If it has too much particulate matter (I guess) then it shuts down the burn.

Once all these initial conditions are met, a green "Run Safe" light illuminates and the afterburner is allowed to ignite. This is a smaller, more indirect flame that preheats the firebox and heat shield bricks so that they don't get the direct blast off the main burners when they are cold. Once the temp gets to about 600 degrees, then the main burners are allowed to ignite. Usually the operator does this manually by twisting the dial, but the control circuit will do it automatically if they would just let it :laughing:

Once the main burners are going, the master timer switch lets it burn for the selected run time. When the time is up, it shuts off the burners. At this point, the timing relay that I replaced continues to run the blower motor for about 30 minutes after the burn, I suppose to continue venting crap and maybe to accelerate cooling. After this, the whole thing resets and is ready to go again.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Fredman said:


> Morbid curiosity's killing me. What is the programmed sequence of events? :blink:


Kidneys shut down, brain dies, heart stops!

Coroner is called

Hearse is called

Chief Roaster is called

Check is collected before pushing start/fire!:jester:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

After the body is cremated, the remains are removed and dumped into a grinder machine which crushes all the bone and whatever else is left into dust which is collected in a metal bucket. The bucket is then dumped into an urn which is given to the family.

Here's the best part. Obviously all of the cleaning, grinding, dumping etc. doesn't happen in one nice little contained activity. Everything stirs up dust. Over the years, this dust has decided to settle over anything and everything.

Need to clean off that junction box? Take a deep breath and blow Mrs. Anderson off of it. Need to read the diagram on the side of that relay? Take your finger and wipe Mr. Jones off of it.

By the time we got this thing running I was covered in dead people :laughing:


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

no. but ive been dying to.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

erics37 said:


> After the body is cremated, the remains are removed and dumped into a grinder machine which crushes all the bone and whatever else is left into dust which is collected in a metal bucket. The bucket is then dumped into an urn which is given to the family.
> 
> Here's the best part. Obviously all of the cleaning, grinding, dumping etc. doesn't happen in one nice little contained activity. Everything stirs up dust. Over the years, this dust has decided to settle over anything and everything.
> 
> ...


A couple weeks ago I was at a crematorium to troubleshoot the pulverizer. The motor was full of "dust". I just tell myself that it's clean because it's been baked at 2000 degrees for 4 hours. You still think about it actually is when you're eating lunch and look down at your sweatshirt and it's covered in "dust".:laughing:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

bostongtp said:


> To each his own. No one means any harm, they're just stating their opinion. I too might feel a little uncomfortable in a situation like that, but I would get the job done. You work with that stuff all the time so your immune to it, it's nothing.
> 
> People are cracking some jokes but it's all in good fun, no one is being malicious and certainly no one is demeaning your industry.


I wasn't offended, just stating an opinion.

I know no one is "demeaning my industry", I work for an electricial contractor. We aren't in the cremation business, we just have a couple of customers who are. There are a few guys that work for my company that get weird-ed out by going to these places as well. 

When I first became an EMT it took me a little while to become comfortable dealing with it as well. Most of the dead people we deal with are "freshly dead", so they are still warm and you can kind of forget about the fact they are dead. We work them like any other patient, so it's not so weird. However, sometimes we get called out for someone who has obviously been dead for a while, then it gets a little uncomfortable, but you get used to it. We don't have to handle the body much, just enough to confirm death and then we're out.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

erics37 said:


> After the body is cremated, the remains are removed and dumped into a grinder machine which crushes all the bone and whatever else is left into dust which is collected in a metal bucket. The bucket is then dumped into an urn which is given to the family.
> 
> Here's the best part. Obviously all of the cleaning, grinding, dumping etc. doesn't happen in one nice little contained activity. Everything stirs up dust. Over the years, this dust has decided to settle over anything and everything.
> 
> ...


Thats pretty f'n gross.. Most household dust is shed skin cells they say, which is nasty when you stop to think about it but cremated body dust sounds a lot worse.. I would have got out my respirator for that one for sure.

Also, does that mean that the urn full of ash you get is mixed up with bits of previously ground ash? So youre really getting a medly of people? I doubt they clean it out between every body....


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hippie said:


> Also, does that mean that the urn full of ash you get is mixed up with bits of previously ground ash? So youre really getting a medly of people?


Yes


> I doubt they clean it out between every body....


They don't. They also don't clean out the ash bin on the furnace or the furnace itself. There is always going to be some remnants left over. So, the box of grandma you receive will be mostly grandma, with a few pieces of various other people mixed in. It's never gonna be a perfectly clean process, it is what it is.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

What are they using for fuel? Oil? Gas? Propane?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

IslandGuy said:


> What are they using for fuel? Oil? Gas? Propane?


The 2 places we work, the furnaces are natural gas.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> Yes
> 
> They don't. They also don't clean out the ash bin on the furnace or the furnace itself. There is always going to be some remnants left over. So, the box of grandma you receive will be mostly grandma, with a few pieces of various other people mixed in. It's never gonna be a perfectly clean process, it is what it is.


man if the general public saw the things that go on that we do... Especially food plants theyd have a fit


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

lefleuron said:


> See,
> 
> In my small branch of the electrical world, we believe in Magic, Bad Luck,
> 
> Karma, Spooks, and Superstition...


 I don't generally feel superstitious, but I gotta admit, I freaking hate it when guys go into trouble calls talking about "How easy this is gonna be!" or "How everything is gonna work right!" 

Stop jinxing chit!

It is funny how people react to death, though. I once jokingly pointed out an extra-tall flue stack on the back of funeral home that was pumping out smoke and said they were probably cremating someone right now. It really freaked out my ex that she might be breathing the smoke from a cremation.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Kidneys shut down, brain dies, heart stops!
> 
> Coroner is called
> 
> ...


Years ago, the only crematoriums were located in the non-sectarian cemeteries. The union cemetery workers started grumbling that the funeral homes were taking their work.
Now, almost any larger funeral home is starting to do their own cremations.
They don't use hearses for picking up the newly deceased. One funeral home used a real slick Suburban for that task.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

retiredsparktech said:


> ...They don't use hearses for picking up the newly deceased. One funeral home used a real slick Suburban for that task.


 You ever noticed how when you were a kid it wasn't uncommon to see a hearse driving around? Now the only time I ever see one is the rare occasion when a funeral procession comes by.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> What are they using for fuel? Oil? Gas? Propane?


Natural gas, it's got like a 2" gas pipe supplying it and when it's at full burn you can hear the meter outside just crankin away :laughing:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

retiredsparktech said:


> They don't use hearses for picking up the newly deceased. One funeral home used a real slick Suburban for that task.





Big John said:


> You ever noticed how when you were a kid it wasn't uncommon to see a hearse driving around? Now the only time I ever see one is the rare occasion when a funeral procession comes by.


A lot of the funeral homes use converted mini vans to transport bodies. They only use an actual hearse when they are transporting a casket. Otherwise a body on a stretcher fits in the mini van.


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## sparkywannabee (Jan 29, 2013)

Good troubleshooting there Eric, just wondering, how does it establish pilot before opening main gas valve, is there a flame rod, scanner? Also does it use thermocouple or rtd's for temp feedback.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

sparkywannabee said:


> Good troubleshooting there Eric, just wondering, how does it establish pilot before opening main gas valve, is there a flame rod, scanner? Also does it use thermocouple or rtd's for temp feedback.


Not sure, I didn't troubleshoot any further than the initialization sequence because after that, everything worked. Not too familiar with gas piping mechanics either.

What I do know is that there are some spark plugs inserted at each burner, as well as some electrical actuated gas valves, and some little ignition transformers too. In the control panel there are a set of flame control safety units which can cut power if necessary, but I don't know how they operate.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

And it's got thermocouples for temp. Does anyone make RTDs rated for 2000+ degrees?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Lamo. Every good oven job requires at least one good holocaust joke.

Was the flex that old 3/8" steel stuff?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jlarson said:


> Lamo. Every good oven job requires at least one good holocaust joke.
> 
> Was the flex that old 3/8" steel stuff?


Please keep your holocaust jokes private it's a touchy and sensitive subject for me. My grandfather died a horrible death in the holocaust. He fell out of the guard tower.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

:lol:


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## socalelect (Nov 14, 2011)

IslandGuy said:


> Please keep your holocaust jokes private it's a touchy and sensitive subject for me. My grandfather died a horrible death in the holocaust. He fell out of the guard tower.


U butchered the joke , its he got drunk and fell out of his guard tower


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Lamo. Every good oven job requires at least one good holocaust joke.
> 
> Was the flex that old 3/8" steel stuff?


Yep it was. Looked like it got cut with a dull spoon too, it was jagged as hell with no bushings.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Big John said:


> You ever noticed how when you were a kid it wasn't uncommon to see a hearse driving around? Now the only time I ever see one is the rare occasion when a funeral procession comes by.


Years ago (when I was a kid) the "hearses" also doubled as ambulances. There were no ambulance services here at that time.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> Years ago (when I was a kid) the "hearses" also doubled as ambulances. There were no ambulance services here at that time.


That was back when the hearses had horses right?


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

Have heard that the cremation process is nicknamed "Shake & Bake".


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Norcal said:


> Have heard that the cremation process is nicknamed "Shake & Bake".


Yeah they have a few stoking implements in the room.

"Oh, getting a bit overdone on that side, better flip him over" :blink:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

erics37 said:


> That was back when the hearses had horses right?


:jester:

Just for that I'm not going to post pictures of the bed I refinished!


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