# Verizon Strike in New York



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...unions strike everybody benefits, even non-union


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I thought Verizon was bought out by Frontier communications?
Edit: Never mind, that was just in Ca. Tx. and Fl.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

A strike is extortion. I have no respect for anyone who goes out on strike.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...enjoy your weekend, compliments of organized labor


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

...enjoy 40 hour workweeks, compliments of organized labor


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

enjoy holidays, compliments of organized labor


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

I seen the blow up rat when I was in NYC last month.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

360max said:


> enjoy holidays, compliments of organized labor


Thank the Corporation for having a job.

Pay for my college,pay for my food,pay for my medical,free this free that sounds greedy to me.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

MTW said:


> A strike is extortion. I have no respect for anyone who goes out on strike.


How do you feel about "income tax" on earned wages?


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

MTW said:


> A strike is extortion. I have no respect for anyone who goes out on strike.



I have no respect for fools who compare a strike to extortion.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

bobbarker said:


> I have no respect for fools who compare a strike to extortion.


Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

joebanana said:


> How do you feel about "income tax" on earned wages?


:blink:


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## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

MTW said:


> Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.


OR 
Employees can join together and collectively bargain for pay and/or incentives and not put their livelihood in the hands of 1 person like a boss or owner. I always laugh at those who fail to see that "smart" men united so they could provide for their families and themselves so they can bargain for raises and don't have to grovel or beg like the men you are referring to. 
You act as though striking causes no financial harm to those striking and also fail to see that 1 man having power over what another man makes is not a balanced relationship as the person in charge has all the power and a single person asking for a raise is at the mercy of his boss. 
Also note,strikes are never wanted by employees as they have families to provide for. In fact, legal strikes are a last resort used to get owners back to the bargaining table for what is hopefully a mutually beneficial contract.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

MTW said:


> Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.


Be a man, and read some history. 

If the people who started unions, in the US had done that, they'd have been fired, and beaten, and most US tradespeople would be making a great deal less. 

The vast majority of American businesses pay as little as possible. They are not generous or humble. Go ask an apprentice what they make at a non-union shop. Without unions, everybody, except owners, would be making substantially less.

I *know* that unions have raised your wages, and made your life better. Strikes are a large part of why that is. I find it sad that you don't understand that.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Ive posted this before a long time ago but
when i was in the navy we were sent to attend a lecture at ucla (safety)
we arrived a few hours early so we sat in on a business lecture.
the professor went on and on about the evils of unions.

we asked him if he had a tenure contract, he said of course he has a contract!
when we said so in effect he was protected in his job for the duration of the contract
he replied yes thats a fact.

when we said he could actually show up for his lectures dressed in a clown suit and the college couldn't do a thing because his tenure contract protected him 
he reluctantly said yes.

so most teachers don't qualify for tenure if they don't hold a high degree unions are the only thing protecting their jobs from predatory management! and for most blue collar workers thats the only thing protecting their jobs. 
we asked do you still hold the opinion that unions are evil?

when he replied yes everyone including all the students walked out!:laughing:

while i do agree that some unions have practiced a few questionable acts they pale in comparison to the $#!t that many companies try to pull off if they can!

how would you feel if you were exposed to toxic materials without your knowledge?
how would you feel if you had to work on dangerous equipment with out protection?
would you be so anti if your company said F*** the requirements of the laws that protect you because it would cost them too much!

do you feel comfortable when you get .25 raise and your ceo gets a bonus every month thats more than a years salary for you (all the while raping your paycheck for insurance) and weaseling out of as much as they can from paying the premiums

this is typical for a large industry!
you are not a person but a number or a piece of meat nothing more!
and your family is nothing more than a drain on their resources!

are unions so evil now?


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

MTW said:


> A strike is extortion. I have no respect for anyone who goes out on strike.


Extortion? Do you even know what the Verizon strike is about? The striking workers are not seeking *more *from their employer, they are seeking to prevent Verizon from slashing their wages and benefits. Verizon makes $1B a month in profits already, but that is not enough apparently, so let's screw over the employees who generate those profits.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

danhasenauer said:


> Extortion? Do you even know what the Verizon strike is about? The striking workers are not seeking *more *from their employer, they are seeking to prevent Verizon from slashing their wages and benefits. Verizon makes $1B a month in profits already, but that is not enough apparently, so let's screw over the employees who generate those profits.


Employee greed :whistling2:


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> Employee greed :whistling2:


Really?! Objecting to a pay cut = greed? You must be a Prince to work for. How do you annually slash your employees wages without objections? Are they undocumented immigrants who can't fight back? SMH...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> Be a man, and read some history.
> 
> If the people who started unions, in the US had done that, they'd have been fired, and beaten, and most US tradespeople would be making a great deal less.
> 
> ...


Whatever good the unions have supposedly done is all erased by the corruption, thuggery and outright criminality of many unions and union members. There is literally nothing they can do at this point in time to regain any credibility. They are a dying dinosaur.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

MTW said:


> Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion,....


I understand that view, but I don't see it being much different than a corporation saying if you don't cut our labor cost we are going to move jobs overseas. 

The unions have helped all workers like others posted. 

I do have some issues (like you Peter) with unions, but a blanket statement like yours is extreme. Why do we (union and businesses) always have to go to extremes?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

joebanana said:


> How do you feel about "income tax" on earned wages?


That deserves its own thread.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I understand that view, but I don't see it being much different than a corporation saying if you don't cut our labor cost we are going to move jobs overseas.
> 
> The unions have helped all workers like others posted.
> 
> I do have some issues (like you Peter) with unions, but a blanket statement like yours is extreme. Why do we (union and businesses) always have to go to extremes?


Believe me, I am no fan of monopolistic businesses either. Far from it. That being said, I still believe the honorable thing to do is ask for a raise on an individual basis, not by striking and work stoppages.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

MTW said:


> Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.





MTW said:


> Whatever good the unions have supposedly done is all erased by the corruption, thuggery and outright criminality of many unions and union members. There is literally nothing they can do at this point in time to regain any credibility. They are a dying dinosaur.


...and you think this will be a good thing for the blue collar worker? It will only make wages decrease and put even more money in the owners pocket. I guess we might as well get rid of OSHA regs too, ahh?


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> That deserves its own thread.


Here's a whole other thread, "property tax". Once a 'tax" has been paid on something, it can't be 'taxed' again....supposedly. "Tax" and extortion have the same definition, what's the difference?


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

MTW said:


> Believe me, I am no fan of monopolistic businesses either. Far from it. That being said, I still believe the honorable thing to do is ask for a raise on an individual basis, not by striking and work stoppages.


This strike is not about raises, it is about slashing wages and benefits to increase profits to above *$1,000,000,000.00* a month. Disgusting, boundless greed.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MTW said:


> Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.


That is all fine and good when you are working for a small local company, but when you are working for a large national or even multinational company that doesn't work....in many cases your boss doesn't even have the authority to give raises.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MTW said:


> Whatever good the unions have supposedly done is all erased by the corruption, thuggery and outright criminality of many unions and union members. There is literally nothing they can do at this point in time to regain any credibility. They are a dying dinosaur.


And big corporations are perfect ?????


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

danhasenauer said:


> This strike is not about raises, it is about slashing wages and benefits to increase profits to above *$1,000,000,000.00* a month. Disgusting, boundless greed.


Postpaid churn, or the rate at which customers canceled service, fell to 0.96% from 1.14% a year earlier. In all, Verizon reported a profit of *$5.39 billion*, or $1.32 a share, compared with a loss of $2.23 billion, or *54 cents a share*, a year earlier.Jan 21, 2016
*Verizon profit beats on growth in smartphones - MarketWatch*

www.marketwatch.com/.../*verizon*-*profit*-beats-on-growth-in-...MarketWatch

not quite...


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

danhasenauer said:


> This strike is not about raises, it is about slashing wages and benefits to increase profits to above *$1,000,000,000.00* a month. Disgusting, boundless greed.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434050/verizon-strike-landline-workers-go-strike

a little less biased view for those who wish....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That is all fine and good when you are working for a small local company, but when you are working for a large national or even multinational company that doesn't work....in many cases your boss doesn't even have the authority to give raises.


If you can't talk to someone directly who can give you a raise, that's your problem, not mine. I have zero sympathy for you.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> And big corporations are perfect ?????


Have I stated anything even remotely close to that?


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

Verizon makes a profit and the union thugs think they are entitled to their money.

I have no sympathy for a system that pays the nonproductive people the same as the best workers.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Nom Deplume said:


> Verizon makes a profit and the union thugs think they are entitled to their money.
> 
> I have no sympathy for a system that pays the nonproductive people the same as the best workers.


Its better than a system that underpays most of its workforce, at least unions offer a fair wage and benefits, which include decent health insurance and decent retirement benefits .


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Nom Deplume said:


> Verizon makes a profit and the union thugs think they are entitled to their money.


 That is the question at hand, right? How much of company profits should employees expect to receive (they do after all contribute to making those profits. When overall CEO pay is 343 times more than the average pay of the workers in the company, something seems a bit unfair. That means during his 2nd day at work (of the year), the CEO makes more than the average of pay for the employees. I support a union trying to get living wages for its members. Without collective bargaining, living wages are much harder to obtain.


> I have no sympathy for a system that pays the nonproductive people the same as the best workers.


 THIS is my biggest complaint about a union. Now, I must admit that I don't have a lot of experience with unions, so I'm not sure how accurate my complaint is.

We live in a quasi capitalistic society and a union is more of a socialistic/communistic organization, yet we hear people being antagonistic against socialism/communism. Confusing at times it is. 

I am not advocating socialism/communism completely, just we need to figure out how to fairly help the workers not just of the USA, but of the world.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Dan the electricman said:


> Go ask an apprentice what they make at a non-union shop.


I apprenticed at a non union shop and made more than my buddy going through the union apprenticeship. My boss also paid for 4 years of my schooling through the IEC with guaranteed raises. I also had all of my tools paid for including my drill set. Your argument (at least this one) has no merit.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Another thing. When the housing market crashed and every shop in town laid everyone off, the union shops sent everyone packing. My boss kept an entire shop full of guys employed and didn't lay anyone off. We did a bit of everything. I used to do commercial flooring years ago and he paid me and two other guys ELECTRICIAN WAGES to go redo all of the floors in our offices and throughout the building. A guy doing flooring makes $10 a hour at best. I was paid the same I would normally make. I have never heard of a union shop doing anything remotely similar to this.


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

Do all non Union apprenticeships do this??


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

dreamcrusher28 said:


> Do all non Union apprenticeships do this??


Check out the IEC. It is a non union apprenticeship school that requires guaranteed pay raises every 2000 work hours (roughly every six months). When I went through it was $1.06 raise. It has gone up since then and I belive it's $1.45 now. The contractor agrees to pay for the school, and raises. The apprentice agrees to go to school and keep a passing grade.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

I am not saying there aren't some sleezebag contractors. But you sit there and tell me with a straight face that the union doesn't have the same type of contractors. Do some research before you apply for a job. Ask the guys who work there already. But blindly saying "the union is better than (blank)" is asinine. The main thing I do not like about union is I don't want someone else having a say in whether I work or not. That and giving a chunk of your pay to your local as dues. Lol


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

Someone always has a say in whether you work or not. If you work for someone, it's a boss/manager, etc. If you're in business for yourself it's your customers/ the economy.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

dreamcrusher28 said:


> Someone always has a say in whether you work or not. If you work for someone, it's a boss/manager, etc. If you're in business for yourself it's your customers/ the economy.


Not by way of a vote. If I do good work for a fair price even if it is expensive I still control my work. If I am in the union and happy with my job but others aren't I can be voted into a strike I don't agree with.


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

Not what you said in your earlier post. And should any of those things change for you it COULD have an effect on your employment/ business.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

dreamcrusher28 said:


> Not what you said in your earlier post. And should any of those things change for you it COULD have an effect on your employment/ business.


Rationalize it however you'd like to make yourself feel better. My employment and work doesn't come down to a vote by others who may be disgruntled for various reasons. If the economy tanks I may slow down but I bet I will keep chugging along. People always need plumbing and electric. When the economy crashes I watch the competition get in line for a unemployment after being laid off. They keep a core group of guys but if you aren't lucky enough to be in that circle at the right time you are sent packing. 

That is one of the joys of working for yourself. I answer to no one. If I am not working then I chose to not work. If I am swamped it is because I choose it. On the flip side of that if I am slow and don't want to be I can always try to get more work.


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

You're definitely missing my point and perhaps I'm missing yours. Work safe.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

dreamcrusher28 said:


> You're definitely missing my point and perhaps I'm missing yours. Work safe.


I understand your point in that there are always outside factors that determine your work. But to add on top of those factors (that affect everything from me to Koch industries) to add a group of people with a vote is not my cup of tea. There is nothing wrong with having the union. In the same respect there is nothing wrong with being non union. To each his own.


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

I never said or implied anything differently. I've worked alongside both sides of this oft debated coin and never had any problems. .


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

dreamcrusher28 said:


> I never said or implied anything differently. I've worked alongside both sides of this oft debated coin and never had any problems. .


Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that you said that. If that's how it came across I apologize. That was not my intent. I only wanted to say that they each have their perks and drawbacks and some people do not want to see that. They think it is one way or another. Again of I came across as suggesting you are saying otherwise I am sorry.


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## dreamcrusher28 (Oct 19, 2010)

Same here. Good day, sir.


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

360max said:


> Its better than a system that underpays most of its workforce, at least unions offer a fair wage and benefits, which include decent health insurance and decent retirement benefits .


All with the privilege of paying the union so you can work. :laughing:


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MTW said:


> If you can't talk to someone directly who can give you a raise, that's your problem, not mine. I have zero sympathy for you.


That is the real world when you are working for a large national or multi-national company. The bosses where you work are not given that type of authority....that authority is at a much higher pay grade.


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

MTW said:


> Believe me, I am no fan of monopolistic businesses either. Far from it. That being said, I still believe the honorable thing to do is ask for a raise on an individual basis, not by striking and work stoppages.


The fact that they are NOT asking for a raise but fighting pay cuts means nothing to you? Everyone should have to go grovelling to their boss to maintain the same pay and benefits? How often Every day? Every week? Nothing honorable about what Verizon is doing.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Is this actually a pay cut, a reduction in hourly wage, or is it less in the check due to higher cost of benefits?


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## Privateer (Jan 1, 2013)

I can't believe some of you are getting sucked into these meaningless trolls so easily. To each their own and good luck to the Verizon guys and gals I say; I imagine a strike can't be easy when the bills keep coming in. Some things are worth fighting for and obviously the workforce and their leadership at Verizon feel they need to stand up for themselves. 

If that workforce is so easy to replace, this gives Verizon the chance to prove their workers are worth less then they're paid. I'm sure they'll try and the market will tell them if they can bear it or not.


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## danhasenauer (Jun 10, 2009)

Privateer said:


> I can't believe some of you are getting sucked into these meaningless trolls so easily. To each their own and good luck to the Verizon guys and gals I say; I imagine a strike can't be easy when the bills keep coming in. Some things are worth fighting for and obviously the workforce and their leadership at Verizon feel they need to stand up for themselves.
> 
> If that workforce is so easy to replace, this gives Verizon the chance to prove their workers are worth less then they're paid. I'm sure they'll try and the market will tell them if they can bear it or not.


Exactly. Very well put. Organized Labor has to be pushed very hard to strike, especially the CWA and IBEW. My Local has a no-strike clause in our contract with our local NECA. This is not over a $1.00 raise. Sure, the cabal that owns the majority of stock deserve a profit, but when do we call it greed? How much is enough? Are all employees just disposable tools?


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Nom Deplume said:


> All with the privilege of paying the union so you can work. :laughing:


You have to laugh at this. Like there some guy named union sitting in a fat office and your paying him to do nothing. Fact is your union is exactly that, *Your union*. Your dues help pay for daily expenses of operational cost. Running the hall, managing the benefits and other functions that benefit the member or their families on a daily basis. Nothing more , nothing less. For such a small percentage, you get a lot of bang for the buck. I have never looked at my dues as a hardship, Glad to pay them.


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## Jarp Habib (May 18, 2014)

Ughhhh I gotta pay 5% so I can make 20-30% more this is terrible!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

bobbarker said:


> I have no respect for fools who compare a strike to extortion.


A collaboration between workers and management is necessary for a good work environment that benefits both sides, there are times when labor has the upper had and times when management has the upper hand a fine balance is needed.

In todays market place I think management has forgotten that workers are a necessity as they try out sourcing jobs. Who will buy the products if there are no workers making a decent wage.

Unions protect the workers and want to keep jobs at home, yet many unions support liberal open border legalize them all policies and want a larger influx of illegals both can kill the middle class.


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## inetdog (Apr 13, 2016)

One of the justifications that Henry Ford stated for paying his assembly line workers considerably more than the prevailing wage was so that they could all afford one of his cars. It seems to have worked out well for him.
He wouldn't hire Blacks though....


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## emahler (Oct 13, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> A collaboration between workers and management is necessary for a good work environment that benefits both sides, there are times when labor has the upper had and times when management has the upper hand a fine balance is needed.
> 
> In todays market place I think management has forgotten that workers are a necessity as they try out sourcing jobs. Who will buy the products if there are no workers making a decent wage.
> 
> Unions protect the workers and want to keep jobs at home, yet many unions support liberal open border legalize them all policies and want a larger influx of illegals both can kill the middle class.


it's a different world than 50 or 100 yrs ago. Employees (both union and non) have more rights than employers.

You are right that there needs to be a balance...a win-win if you will...

i think there is a distinct difference between union labor and union leaders. I don't think union leaders have the labor's best interest at heart. 

Right now, unions are pushing for the $15/hr min wage...they are also pushing for carve outs for the unions to be able to pay less. it's a game to increase union membership...not to improve the union labor's lives.

increased wages are great...but it's not in a vacuum...the only way increased wages are really beneficial is if productivity keeps the cost of the finished product down. that's buying power...without buying power, it doesn't matter what your wage is. Union or non...

increased wages just because you've managed to not get fired for another year is not beneficial. increased wages because you are more productive is a great thing.

unions have done a ton of good throughout history...they just need to realize that the world has changed and the union needs to change with it.

dead weight needs to be dropped. producers need to be rewarded. costs need to be controlled....until that occurs, union market share will keep shrinking...


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

3D Electric said:


> I apprenticed at a non union shop and made more than my buddy going through the union apprenticeship. My boss also paid for 4 years of my schooling through the IEC with guaranteed raises. I also had all of my tools paid for including my drill set. Your argument (at least this one) has no merit.


Thank your union competition for that. I did when I was non-union. My old company had to treat and compensate their workers well if they didn't want to be organized.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

TGGT said:


> Thank your union competition for that. I did when I was non-union. My old company had to treat and compensate their workers well if they didn't want to be organized.


I don't like salting. I think if a business man wanted to have his company in the union that is his decision. If the others want to join the union that is their decision. Forcing a company to unionize shouldn't be allowed. If you hate it there and want to join the union leave and join it. 
Why would I thank the union competition? Butch took care of his guys who worked well and because he wanted to. He could have kept wages low and been like others but didn't. I will tell you that lazy guys lasted about two weeks. He didn't keep dead weight. I should thank him for that. Keeping around guys who don't perform would drive all of our wages down.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

3D Electric said:


> I don't like salting. I think if a business man wanted to have his company in the union that is his decision. If the others want to join the union that is their decision. Forcing a company to unionize shouldn't be allowed. If you hate it there and want to join the union leave and join it.
> Why would I thank the union competition? Butch took care of his guys who worked well and because he wanted to. He could have kept wages low and been like others but didn't. I will tell you that lazy guys lasted about two weeks. He didn't keep dead weight. I should thank him for that. Keeping around guys who don't perform would drive all of our wages down.


If you think the union movement was a gift from employers to workers you're sorely mistaken.

Unionization is a factor all businesses need to accept as a possibility whether they like it or not. Otherwise they are free to employ robots instead of people. They have as much right to start a business and join business associations as people are to apply for employment and join a labor union.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Verizon is canceling health insurance for striking employees, effective May 1. 

Striking workers are ineligible for 'Cobra' insurance, according to fed. law.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

If I had anything verizon I would cancel until a fair contract were signed. Nothing but ATT and Time Warner here.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

whether your union or non-union, you have to admit, unions did an awful lot for us blue collar workers


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I will admit that if I had to do it over again, I would have attempted a union route. Heck, I didn't even know Va Beach had an electrical union in '72 when I quit college and decided to be an electrician instead.

The education alone would have been worth it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> A strike is extortion. I have no respect for anyone who goes out on strike.


A highly profitable corporation that tells it's employees they want the right to transfer them anywhere for up to 2 months per year, in order to save the costs of training all of their techs to do FIOS installs, is a much better example of extortion than voluntarily and legally withholding one's labor in protest.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Lep said:


> Thank the Corporation for having a job.


Thank hard working, well paid American labor for being consumers so that corporations have a customer base to cater to. 



> Pay for my college,pay for my food,pay for my medical,free this free that sounds greedy to me.


Nobody pays their employees. Employees earn their pay in the name of company and the companies profit and give the employee a small cut of the money they're earning in the way of wages and fringe benefits. 

If an employee really made what they're worth, there would be no such thing as profits.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> Don't really care. Threatening your employer with a work stoppage which results in financial harm is extortion, and is thuggery at its best. Be a man and go into your bosses office and ask for a raise.


They did - it was Verizon that broke off negotiations.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> Whatever good the unions have supposedly done is all erased by the corruption, thuggery and outright criminality of many unions and union members.


Oh cut the propaganda act, it's getting old. Unions haven't "supposedly" done good, they're the only organizations out there fighting for the American workers. The way our government is structured, they're the only way to keep the few labor protection laws we have, and our only chance of ever getting anything favorable out of congress for the working man.

Joining together and collectively bargaining is the only way to go head to head with management on a fair, level playing field. With the added bonus of having professional negotiators.

When our contractors balk at a pay increase, claiming they cannot afford it, we get to counter with - open your books and prove it. To date they've never been willing to do that and therefore no increase in wages has ever been denied. Try doing that one on one with your boss. If that's unions being thugs then count me in.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MTW said:


> If you can't talk to someone directly who can give you a raise, that's your problem, not mine. I have zero sympathy for you.


Empathy for others was never your strong point.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Nom Deplume said:


> Verizon makes a profit and the union thugs think they are entitled to their money.
> 
> I have no sympathy for a system that pays the nonproductive people the same as the best workers.


Yes, the nonunion method is so much better.

In the CWA the techs make something like 46.00 an hour, plus a host of fringe benefits.

They should all suck it up, be men, and go work for nonunion MCI - where they'll all make 22.00 an hour no matter how "good" they are, and get no fringes without paying out of pocket for them.

Or better yet, go work for a typical nonunion electrical contractor who pays on the "merit"basis. Our local's scale is $54.00 plus fringes, and everybody gets at least that, good, bad or indifferent. It would be much better if everyone went to work for "Merit Electric" and got a maximum of $30.00 an hour and no fringes. 

Yea yea, that makes a lotta sense. :whistling2:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

IslandGuy said:


> Yes, the nonunion method is so much better.
> 
> In the CWA the techs make something like 46.00 an hour, plus a host of fringe benefits.
> 
> ...


Welcome back island guy! 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I support a union trying to get living wages for its members. Without collective bargaining, living wages are much harder to obtain. THIS is my biggest complaint about a union. Now, I must admit that I don't have a lot of experience with unions, so I'm not sure how accurate my complaint is.
> 
> We live in a quasi capitalistic society and a union is more of a socialistic/communistic organization, yet we hear people being antagonistic against socialism/communism. Confusing at times it is.
> 
> I am not advocating socialism/communism completely, just we need to figure out how to fairly help the workers not just of the USA, but of the world.


The unions and the corporations have a great method of dealing with the nonproductive - and it's all spelled out in the contract. In our local, employees who aren't performing to the satisfaction of their foreman are simply get laid off. The better performers negotiate for overscale, extra paid hours, or whatever else suits them. We got one guy who takes Fridays off with pay.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> Another thing. When the housing market crashed and every shop in town laid everyone off, the union shops sent everyone packing. My boss kept an entire shop full of guys employed and didn't lay anyone off. We did a bit of everything. I used to do commercial flooring years ago and he paid me and two other guys ELECTRICIAN WAGES to go redo all of the floors in our offices and throughout the building. A guy doing flooring makes $10 a hour at best. I was paid the same I would normally make. I have never heard of a union shop doing anything remotely similar to this.


When there is a economic downturn and the construction industry suffers, jobs are lost. That's just a fact of life. A nonunion company pays overall far less than a union shop, this is especially noted by their lack of a pension plan, a good and free family medical benefits program, and may other fringes. This allows a nonunion shop which is used to grooming and keeping a core set of employees to sit on a reserve pile of funds so that they can remain intact through the good times and the bad times - necessary because nonunion shops don't have the flexibility to quickly man-up with skilled labor when they land large work. 

And while your boss may have paid for your schooling and all of your tools, that is an exception not the rule, as I'm sure you're aware of other nonunion shops in Wichata Kansas that do not. 

I know that it is very difficult for most people to embrace the concept of a union hiring hall, that layoffs are common, that nothing, not even your job is permanent, but the fact is that the construction industry is very volitile and an employer's ability to go from 3 men to 300 men is critical in today's competitive market.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> When there is a economic downturn and the construction industry suffers, jobs are lost. That's just a fact of life. A nonunion company pays overall far less than a union shop, this is especially noted by their lack of a pension plan, a good and free family medical benefits program, and may other fringes. This allows a nonunion shop which is used to grooming and keeping a core set of employees to sit on a reserve pile of funds so that they can remain intact through the good times and the bad times - necessary because nonunion shops don't have the flexibility to quickly man-up with skilled labor when they land large work.
> 
> And while your boss may have paid for your schooling and all of your tools, that is an exception not the rule, as I'm sure you're aware of other nonunion shops in Wichata Kansas that do not.
> 
> I know that it is very difficult for most people to embrace the concept of a union hiring hall, that layoffs are common, that nothing, not even your job is permanent, but the fact is that the construction industry is very volitile and an employer's ability to go from 3 men to 300 men is critical in today's competitive market.


I am neither pro union or anti union. I say do whatever is best for your situation. I personally do not like the turnover rate at the union level but am fully aware of the same thing in an open shop. Unions have the perks, retirement and insurance are two to name off the bat. You do not earn retirement sitting on the books for 9 months though. Open shop have their perks also. Smaller family feel, typically the same group of guys stay there longer, usually less traveling. There is less pay at some but most (especially members of the IEC) have a similar wage scale as the union. If your ultimate goal is to work for yourself I believe (and this is just personal belief, no research was done on this) you would be easier to go out on your own in an open shop. Like I said before many times over. Look at both options and make an informed decision as to what is best for you and your family. 👍


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> I am not saying there aren't some sleezebag contractors.


The fact of the matter is, there aren't just "some" sleezebag contractors out there. There's a lot. They're more common than not. The presence of a sleezebag contractor or multiple sleezebag contractors in any area means that the remaining contractors have to stoop down to their level in order to compete, even if thy don't want to.



> But you sit there and tell me with a straight face that the union doesn't have the same type of contractors. Do some research before you apply for a job. Ask the guys who work there already. But blindly saying "the union is better than (blank)" is asinine.


There's no reason to since everyone in the union for any length of time is already familiar with the participating contractors, their work, their rep, etc. 



> The main thing I do not like about union is I don't want someone else having a say in whether I work or not.


Right now, your boss has that say over you. 



> That and giving a chunk of your pay to your local as dues. Lol


Do you realize why movie stars and professional althletes have agents? And typically their agents get 10% of the deal negotiated on their behalf.

Long ago, many people who are exceptionally good at something, like A-Rod, or Betty White, realized that they're not exceptionally good at negotiating a contract. 

Our wage schedule is as follows:

Apprentice 1 first semester - $15.25 second semester - $16.65
2 -18.05 / 19.10
3- 20.15 / 21.13
4- 22.10 / 23.95
5- 27.50
Journeyman - $54.00

In addition to the stated wages, our employers must pay the employee's share of the FICA taxes. (apprentices 1-5)

My dues assessment is 1% of my gross pay.
My annual dues are 325.00 every 6 months.

But hey, if I fixate on that "paying to play" and despise paying out that "chunk" of my pay that much, I should go work nonunion for $25.00 an hour and save myself $2150.00 a year... :whistling2:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Alright then! 

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Nom Deplume said:


> All with the privilege of paying the union so you can work. :laughing:


Yea, instead of the privilege of working for less, having no pension, paying for your own benefits, and being totally at-will. Rock on man...


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Scale is determined on your area. So 54 a hour sounds great to me but is not the scale here. 28-29 a hour is. I said having someone else having a say in if I work or not with a vote is not my cup of tea. Scumbag employers are everywhere, including the union. The chunk of pay was overstated. I apologize for the problem of may have caused. 
Once again, do whatever is best for you. Everyone is different and may or may not like union or non union. What you do is of no concern to me .


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> I don't like salting. I think if a business man wanted to have his company in the union that is his decision.


You don't think that, you only think you think that. And that's because you have been groomed by people who want you to think that way with propaganda, because your ignorance of what unions do, what they are, how they work, why they came to be, what your rights are, what your employer's rights are.

Until you are educated enough on the matter to actually apply your own critical thinking, your opinion is not your own. It's someone else's. You only have enough information, both fact and fiction, such that the opinion you think you have makes sense.

The decision to form a union is solely the decision of the majority of the employees, not the employer. The employer has no say in this. Unions are worker's organizations, not business tools. 

It should never be the employer's decision whether to be union or not, if it were, there would be no unions. 

An employer, any employer, large or small, is is the business, whatever business that my be, for one reason and one reason only - to make as much money as possible and using any and all tools at their disposal to achieve that end. If that means screwing employees over, if that means outsourcing jobs, if that means sheltering profits in Bermuda, or the Cayman Islands, incorporating a California business in Delaware, whatever it takes nothing is off the table. 

I've salted and organized shops where the company owner had the entire workforce convinced that the company was on the edge of bankruptcy, and he was practically on skid row. Think for a moment why a boss would employ that tactic?


> If the others want to join the union that is their decision. Forcing a company to unionize shouldn't be allowed. If you hate it there and want to join the union leave and join it.


Pussies cut and run. Real men stand up and fight.



> Why would I thank the union competition? Butch took care of his guys who worked well and because he wanted to. He could have kept wages low and been like others but didn't.


That's very nice of Butch, but what about all those people who work for the others who didn't?



> I will tell you that lazy guys lasted about two weeks. He didn't keep dead weight. I should thank him for that. Keeping around guys who don't perform would drive all of our wages down.


Name me one employer who keeps lazy guys?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

zac said:


> Welcome back island guy!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


Thanks! :thumbup:

Been working 60+ hour weeks since I disappeared.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> You don't think that, you only think you think that. And that's because you have been groomed by people who want you to think that way with propaganda, because your ignorance of what unions do, what they are, how they work, why they came to be, what your rights are, what your employer's rights are.
> 
> Until you are educated enough on the matter to actually apply your own critical thinking, your opinion is not your own. It's someone else's. You only have enough information, both fact and fiction, such that the opinion you think you have makes sense.
> 
> ...


My opinion is formed on information I have obtained from both union and non union sources. Stating I am ignorant simply because I do not agree with you on one the subject is ignorant itself. 
I work for myself as non union because that is what I chose for myself. It is my decision not yours. 
I do not understand why it upsets you so much that someone doesn't agree with your point of view. Everyone has the right to choose what they want. 
I don't even know what you are trying to get at with cut and run or stand and fight so I will not address it. 
Butch took care of his guys. Outside my shop is not my responsibility. It is the job of every person to put themselves in a position to succeed. If you are unhappy with your life do something about it. Make a change. 
Employers who keep lazy guys, I know for certain USD262 (non union). Constantly told to take it slow and use all your time because if they don't use their entire budget they don't get a larger one the next year. 5 guys argued for 6 hours over who was going to cut in a device box. Blatant laziness.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> I am neither pro union or anti union. I say do whatever is best for your situation.


It's beneficial to everyone when one has an open mind and is open to new ideas and information. The fact of the matter is, people not in unions, and many people who are in unions, do not really understand any of the history, the legalities, the methodology, the concept, the benefits, etc. I'm just putting as much information out there as possible because for years, especially since Reagan, unions have been villified and there has been a corporate war of propoganda and dis-information going on.

We are a society of people, mostly working people and mostly employees of others. Things would be much better for us if were work together and cooperate then look at each other as enemies. I'm on the side of everyone who works for a living, whether they're union, nonunion, or an illegal immigrant. 

The truth is the powers that be want the discourse between union and non, just like they want the discourse between conservative and liberal, Jew and catholic, etc, so that all of us working stiffs are constantly focused on a false enemy instead of looking at the top 1% income earners in this country, who the real enemy of working people and the real obstacle to people's success is.


> I personally do not like the turnover rate at the union level but am fully aware of the same thing in an open shop.


That's probably because working 9 months, off for 2, working 4, off for 1, represents an instability you have a distaste for. In some locals, theyre rife with unemployment Others are not.

Here's my history - 26 years in the union, 14 months total out of work. 



> Unions have the perks, retirement and insurance are two to name off the bat. You do not earn retirement sitting on the books for 9 months though.


True, but being out of work 9 months is the exception, not the rule.



> Open shop have their perks also. Smaller family feel, typically the same group of guys stay there longer, usually less traveling. There is less pay at some but most (especially members of the IEC) have a similar wage scale as the union. If your ultimate goal is to work for yourself I believe (and this is just personal belief, no research was done on this) you would be easier to go out on your own in an open shop. Like I said before many times over. Look at both options and make an informed decision as to what is best for you and your family. 👍


Things get very different in other regions of this vast country. 

Here, in NYC, if you're union you make 54.00 a hour, have a pension, benefits, working rules, and if you're nonunion you will not make more than 30 bucks an hour and will have absolutely no fringes whatsoever. Here, the choice is clear for anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

3D Electric said:


> My opinion is formed on information I have obtained from both union and non union sources. Stating I am ignorant simply because I do not agree with you on one the subject is ignorant itself.
> I work for myself as non union because that is what I chose for myself. It is my decision not yours.


I do not call you ignorant because you disagree with me, or that you're nonunion, I call you ignorant because you are.

Anyone who would state that a company being union or nonunion should be the company's decision is ignorant. If you disagree with that, it's only because of your ignorance of unions, workers, workers rights to collectively bargain and that's OK, I forgive you for your ignorance. You're in good company.



> I do not understand why it upsets you so much that someone doesn't agree with your point of view. Everyone has the right to choose what they want.
> I don't even know what you are trying to get at with cut and run or stand and fight so I will not address it.


Take a company where the employees are unhappy, the pay is low, they're overworked, have to supply their own tools, and all they want to do is get in the union and live the life of Riley through no effort of their own. 

What I'm saying is, employees have the power and ability to make their own workplace a great place to work by organizing and standing up to their opresser. And the fact of the matter is, it's not really difficult once all the facts are out there.



> Butch took care of his guys. Outside my shop is not my responsibility.


Good for Butch, sounds like a stand-up Guy. Unfortunately, not every employer is Butch.

Unlike you, outside of Butch IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. What? Yea - there are people working for a lot of non-Butch like people and they're just like me - working people just like me getting up every morning and putting their pants on just the same, trying to eck out a living and put food on the table and a roof over their heads. 

I am my brothers keeper. Me, you, everyone and anyone who are just squirrels trying to get a nut. I do not subscribe to the "I'm doing OK so F everyone else" idea. Other working people, whether union, nonunion, or whatever are my brethern, NOT my enemy. What they want is what I want. It's what everyone wants. An injury to Joe Shmo is an injury to me, and everybody who works for a living, I cannot and will not ignore it.

That's why I do what I can to help others out of their position and onto a track of self-improvement. It's not enough that I have enough and that I'm happy and my needs are satisfied. 




> It is the job of every person to put themselves in a position to succeed. If you are unhappy with your life do something about it. Make a change.
> Employers who keep lazy guys, I know for certain USD262 (non union). Constantly told to take it slow and use all your time because if they don't use their entire budget they don't get a larger one the next year. 5 guys argued for 6 hours over who was going to cut in a device box. Blatant laziness.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> I do not call you ignorant because you disagree with me, or that you're nonunion, I call you ignorant because you are.
> 
> Anyone who would state that a company being union or nonunion should be the company's decision is ignorant. If you disagree with that, it's only because of your ignorance of unions, workers, workers rights to collectively bargain and that's OK, I forgive you for your ignorance. You're in good company.
> 
> ...


Your condensation astounds me. So I will say this simply so as to not cause any confusion. I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE DOES. Go to the union or don't. Your call. All I said was make an informed decision and chose yourself. Don't let someone pressure you into either situation. 
I do not subscribe to the I'm doing OK mentality either, but other people outside my circle of people I know are not my responsibility. But I still donate my labor and materials to charities. I go and do habitat for humanity houses. I pay my guys wages to do a house for nothing. That is MY decision to do so. Not my responsibility. 
People, humans are naturally lazy. (most anyways) They will take the path that leads to the greatest rewards and least work. A doctor takes a great deal of schooling and lots of work up front with the laziness coming at retirement. More benefits and more relaxation at the end. But people do not always see the means to an end and want to be lazy now without prepping first. These are the people who are 50 at McDonald's. Making minimum wage. So they want a raise. However they are taking up jobs that are in itself entry level. High school kid jobs. College kid jobs. The kind that aren't demanding and yeah, don't pay much. So they want to raise minimum wage to 15 an hour, which I think it's an alright idea. However I see that with wages going up the company who employs them all see their profits dip. When a company, any company, sees their profits go down they take steps to boost them. Scale back employment, benefits, raise cost of goods. Something is going to change. So now McDonald's no longer has a dollar menu they have a two dollar menu. People grumble but life goes on. 
I want to advance my community as much as possible but sometimes you have to let go. You can not guide everyone. 
I will bow out of this conversation because I see it going very political. 
You and I will not see eye to eye and that is fine. Different strokes for different folks. However before you resort to name calling, think that someone else has different beliefs and ideals than you, and that is just fine. 
Good day gentlemen.I


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## Nom Deplume (Jul 21, 2013)

IslandGuy said:


> Yes, the nonunion method is so much better.
> 
> They should all suck it up, be men, and
> 
> ...


I agree. :thumbup:


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Why do businesses pay "membership fees" for services and benefits from business associations like with their local Chamber of Commerce? 

Why do CEO's feel the need to have a contract defining their business relationship, compensation and benefits? Why not just work "at-will" like everybody else?


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