# How important is being in a "right-to-work" state?



## Dobermann315 (Jul 26, 2013)

Hello,

I am following up on another thread where I said I am applying to two IBEW apprenticeship programs. One is up north and is not in a right to work state (stronger union) and the other is in Florida which is a right to work state (weaker union). 

What are your experiences and opinions with being in a right-to-work state vs not being in one? Does one stay unemployed longer than the other? Does it make a difference in the long run?

Also, not trying to start a flame war here of union vs. non-union and not saying one is better...just trying to understand how it affects you as an electrician.

Thanks


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

it probly wont be flame war on union -non union, it will be a teritorial thing, as it depends on which state, local, area , etc. some places are very strong union and right next door non union is ok.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

Let's just start with you doing some research about wages and benefits in different States you think you might land after military service. Right to work States seem to be working more than non-right to work States at this time. Wages in the right to work States are very close to being the same and offer about the same benefits at a cost to you and maybe a matching 401k. The larger cities in the Union States do have higher wages, more benefits, pensions and annuities. Look at the IBEW Job Board site and look at the number of people on Book 1 and Book 2, also look at what their wages and benefits are also. The bigger cities do not list any of this information on that site. It is hard to place 3000 as out of work but then again the Local may have 10,000 members. Right to Work States also have some thing called "To work at will" which basically means the company can dump you for what ever reason they want without cause. So not starting any chit but, I sure wish people would research the site and other online information instead of asking here. So I should of kept my mouth shut.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dobermann315 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am following up on another thread where I said I am applying to two IBEW apprenticeship programs. One is up north and is not in a right to work state (stronger union) and the other is in Florida which is a right to work state (weaker union).
> 
> ...


Those who are in favor of a "Right To Work" state rely upon trying to convince others that they are in favor because a person should not have to join a union if they don't want to. I agree with them. However, facts are facts: In Right To Work states the wages most often are lower and the benefits less.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

It's Right to Work here, and the lowest percentage of unionized workers of all fifty states. Wages are very low. The highest offers I've seen in this state are Lorillard ($33/hr, unionized) and RJ Reynolds ($28, non-union but full benefits). Practically every job ad I've ever seen was below $20/hr, regardless of experience. My previous employer maintained a staff of around forty people and had subcontractors everywhere, as the work was nationwide and we often needed local licensees. His top manager and chief inspector (me) was salaried at $25,500 per year, no benefits. Cost of living isn't substantially lower. There are guys earning better wages, but I've met very few that cross over $20/hr, and only one that is over $25/hr (with POCO).

I don't particularly love Right to Work laws, but I don't think those laws are entirely to blame for lower wages. RTW is a small part of a broad political and social trend where the blue-collar workers are practically taught from birth that getting paid well is the sin of Greed. Tradesmen aren't really being cheated by RTW, considering they will straight-up tell you they are working for peanuts and "would be damn glad to make (insert pay raise equivalent to a second handful of peanuts)".


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

millerdrr said:


> It's Right to Work here, and the lowest percentage of unionized workers of all fifty states. Wages are very low. The highest offers I've seen in this state are Lorillard ($33/hr, unionized) and RJ Reynolds ($28, non-union but full benefits). Practically every job ad I've ever seen was below $20/hr, regardless of experience. My previous employer maintained a staff of around forty people and had subcontractors everywhere, as the work was nationwide and we often needed local licensees. His top manager and chief inspector (me) was salaried at $25,500 per year, no benefits. Cost of living isn't substantially lower. There are guys earning better wages, but I've met very few that cross over $20/hr, and only one that is over $25/hr (with POCO).
> 
> I don't particularly love Right to Work laws, but I don't think those laws are entirely to blame for lower wages. RTW is a small part of a broad political and social trend where the blue-collar workers are practically taught from birth that getting paid well is the sin of Greed. Tradesmen aren't really being cheated by RTW, considering they will straight-up tell you they are working for peanuts and "would be damn glad to make (insert pay raise equivalent to a second handful of peanuts)".


In your post your pain is felt. Bottom line is that a well formed company that has a needed product WILL be in business and in order to supply the need they must have LABOR. If the LABOR FORCE finds the strength to stand up and just ask for just a "PIECE of the PIE" the company has a choice to make. Share the abundance or fire everyone and find someone else who is hungry enough to take advantage of.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You seem pretty intent on going union so you should probably go to the non RTW state.
If you have any and I mean any gumption to start your own company you should go to the RTW states. 
The union absolutely hates small businesses .


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> The union absolutely hates small businesses .


Even as a union-supporter, I gotta agree. Before the ink was dry on my license, I sent the IBEW local an email about becoming a signatory contractor...they didn't even respond.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Dobermann315 said:


> ...just trying to understand how it affects you as an electrician.
> Thanks


In general 'right to work' states have lower wages and lesser benefits. 'Right to work' is specifically a business sponsored weakening of collective negotiating.

If you are coming out of the military check out helmets to hardhats http://www.helmetstohardhats.org/


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## Joest123 (Oct 28, 2013)

Less wage and benefits but you will work more often!(that's what they say at least)....:no:


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

RIVETER said:


> Bottom line is that a well formed company that has a needed product WILL be in business and in order to supply the need they must have LABOR. If the LABOR FORCE finds the strength to stand up and just ask for just a "PIECE of the PIE" the company has a choice to make. Share the abundance or fire everyone and find someone else who is hungry enough to take advantage of.


Sadly very true. This is called free labour market.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

eejack said:


> 'Right to work' is specifically a business sponsored weakening of collective negotiating.


Exactly.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

millerdrr said:


> His top manager and chief inspector (me) was salaried at $25,500 per year, no benefits.


Man…this is peanuts… Have you ever thought about moving at all ??? 

In Chicago a JM gets $43/ hour + benefits, in San Diego about $37, just to make some examples.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Natan said:


> Man…this is peanuts… Have you ever thought about moving at all ???
> 
> In Chicago a JM gets $43/ hour + benefits, in San Diego about $37, just to make some examples.


And the cost of living difference? Just curious.

F'ing cold ass wind
Dumb ass mayor
High murder rate


These things add up:laughing::laughing:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Is the right to work crap even important at all? What's the overall wage difference compared to the cost of living in that state? Some of you guys act like the world evolves around the union, guess what it doesn't! I wouldn't just go move and work somewhere just cause of getting two dollars an hour more. Move to a place your going to be happy, there is more to life then union politics and work. If you are happy, none of that crap matters.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Dobermann315 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am following up on another thread where I said I am applying to two IBEW apprenticeship programs. One is up north and is not in a right to work state (stronger union) and the other is in Florida which is a right to work state (weaker union).
> 
> ...


I live in a "right to work" state. How it ever got a name like that, I can't even guess. It's really the opposite.
It's basically a situation where people have lost a voice in how they make a living and have to take whatever is handed to them.
Not everyone can sell themselves and ask for a certain wage. Some can and do a great job of it.
If everyone had a basic set of minimum skills and could be employed to make an entity money or bring a certain amount of calculated efficiency, it would be nice but, within the base skills, some will excellent, some will not.
Union wages are somewhat like the military, private makes x amount, has x amount of responsibility. Sergeant has more training and expertise, gets paid more. The fitness of each one depends on the training of those above them.
Private contractors, working for the military, get what they can get, some with. Better negotiating skills will get more, same skills, not good at negotiating, will make less.
If I plan a mission and need a battalion size force, i know what the cost will be and can assemble a group of people with the skills I need. It's very important the maintain a force to pull from. People commit to this and train for this and people are rewarded for their efforts in doing so. 

I have no idea where this is going...


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Go ask a German Jew from 1930 for a good reason why "right to work" is very important to have. 

No right to work is fine and dandy till some other majority than you takes over the system and then you find you are not allowed in the club.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

Im in LU553 and the scale is somewhere around 22.45 or 55. I admit this is one of the few places in NC where you make this much. Berg and Griffin will pay you more than that but you really need to negotiate that wage before you start. Both companies start foreman pay at around 25 and it tops out in the 40's I believe. Scale wise foreman don't make that much but I get the impression if you are a good foreman the union shops around here will pay you above scale. For me personally the union is a better deal. I do believe that it being a right to work state coupled with no official apprenticeship training requirement depresses our wages. Wtih mandatory training you get rid of a lot of the chaff and companies are forced to pay more for their work force. im sick of typing.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

macmikeman said:


> Go ask a German Jew from 1930 for a good reason why "right to work" is very important to have.
> 
> No right to work is fine and dandy till some other majority than you takes over the system and then you find you are not allowed in the club.


Holy ****.

Are you saying that right to work will save us from nazis who want to put us in concentration camps and kill us?

Holy ****.

You are completely and totally out of your gourd.

And BJ...you thank that insane crap?

Holy ****.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Natan said:


> Man…this is peanuts… Have you ever thought about moving at all ???
> 
> In Chicago a JM gets $43/ hour + benefits, in San Diego about $37, just to make some examples.


I quit about two years ago. I now work for a Housing Authority. Wage is better but still low, considering that they have no other licensee working for them, but I enjoy the people I'm working for. Benefits aren't bad; our health care cost dropped 10% for the same coverage this year. Retirement plan participation is mandatory. They pay maintenance men at least prevailing wage, even though Davis-Bacon isn't always applicable. They appear to be sincerely devoted to bettering the community.

Cost-of-living isn't substantially lower in the Piedmont Triad, compared to Chicago or other places up north...with the key exception of real estate. A subcontractor I worked with in New Hampshire said his home was valued around $600k if I remember right, but here he could get the same for $150k-ish.

$600k here will get you an all-brick, brand-new transitional, 4000 sq ft, five bed, four bath McMansion. All other expenses are very similar; prices were higher when I was on the road, but not as might be expected with the 400% difference in wage. Fast food might've been a dollar more; cigarettes were double...but in no way is $15/hr in the south comparable to $50/hr up north.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

millerdrr said:


> I quit about two years ago. I now work for a Housing Authority. Wage is better but still low, considering that they have no other licensee working for them, but I enjoy the people I'm working for. Benefits aren't bad; our health care cost dropped 10% for the same coverage this year. Retirement plan participation is mandatory. They pay maintenance men at least prevailing wage, even though Davis-Bacon isn't always applicable. They appear to be sincerely devoted to bettering the community.
> 
> Cost-of-living isn't substantially lower in the Piedmont Triad, compared to Chicago or other places up north...with the key exception of real estate. A subcontractor I worked with in New Hampshire said his home was valued around $600k if I remember right, but here he could get the same for $150k-ish.
> 
> $600k here will get you an all-brick, brand-new transitional, 4000 sq ft, five bed, four bath McMansion. All other expenses are very similar; prices were higher when I was on the road, but not as might be expected with the 400% difference in wage. Fast food might've been a dollar more; cigarettes were double...but in no way is $15/hr in the south comparable to $50/hr up north.


Houses in NH for 600k are high end. NH ain't that far off from NC as far as cost of living goes, the wages are just a bit higher. Was the guy from Griffin? They tried to recruit me when I was in trade school, but I didn't want to have to do an apprenticeship all over again (they have their own program so it would have added 2 years to my apprenticeship).


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Going_Commando said:


> Houses in NH for 600k are high end. NH ain't that far off from NC as far as cost of living goes, the wages are just a bit higher. Was the guy from Griffin? They tried to recruit me when I was in trade school, but I didn't want to have to do an apprenticeship all over again (they have their own program so it would have added 2 years to my apprenticeship).


He lived on the southeast side of Manchester; not sure if that's a high-cost area, my memory is wrong, or his estimate was wrong. He worked for a small company out of Concord...I don't think they had their own apprenticeship, beyond whatever legal requirements they had to meet. I don't think the owner did any training; most of his employees were j-men that said they had only worked for him for a year or less. He had one apprentice on our job, but they said that guy was very close to testing for his j card.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Alot of electricians and pipefitters here made over $100k this last year.

I know a few who made that much by August.

But then as you know... unions are a bad thing. It's not like we were doing TI's and roping houses, but if you were a small con here, you'da made that much doing just that. Resi and commerical remodel guys are doing that.

Now rewind back over to the economically "blessed" south and bible belt. Is your craft guys making this much? Nope. The 'man' has it all locked up in his social caste system. Yall are dumb for putting up with it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

mr hands said:


> Alot of electricians and pipefitters here made over $100k this last year.
> 
> I know a few who made that much by August.
> 
> ...


Is this the same guy that was out of work for 2.5 years and ran out of unemployment?


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

brian john said:


> And the cost of living difference? Just curious.
> 
> F'ing cold ass wind
> Dumb ass mayor
> ...


True, very cold in winter. The mayor has done some good and some less good things. High murder rate, true, but only in some areas, that you do not need to go to and you will still have plenty of safe neighborhoods to travel and live in in Chicago 

I mentioned Chicago and San Diego as an example, an idea. There is plenty of cities to choose from, ex. San Diego is warm, murder rate lower than in chi ago for sure and their interim mayor is a nice guy :laughing:

With 80K (gross) a year + benefits, you can live really well in Chicago.

No matter how low is the cost of living in NC, I am sure you do not live as well, money-wise. With 25k you can do little - with all the respect and esteem for millerdrr , whom I believe is a honest and professional worker - no matter how low the cost of living is.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

millerdrr said:


> I quit about two years ago. I now work for a Housing Authority. Wage is better but still low


I am very glad to hear you left and that wage is a little better now.



Brian John, here you go and have the confirmation of what I said, unfortunately.



millerdrr said:


> Cost-of-living isn't substantially lower in the Piedmont Triad, compared to Chicago or other places up north...with the key exception of real estate.
> 
> …
> 
> All other expenses are very similar; prices were higher when I was on the road, but not as might be expected with the 400% difference in wage. Fast food might've been a dollar more; cigarettes were double...but in no way is $15/hr in the south comparable to $50/hr up north.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

Natan said:


> True, very cold in winter. The mayor has done some good and some less good things. High murder rate, true, but only in some areas, that you do not need to go to and you will still have plenty of safe neighborhoods to travel and live in in Chicago
> 
> I mentioned Chicago and San Diego as an example, an idea. There is plenty of cities to choose from, ex. San Diego is warm, murder rate lower than in chi ago for sure and their interim mayor is a nice guy :laughing:
> 
> ...


So you're telling me that a $1000/month mortgage and $1500 per year property taxes and insurance compared to a $4000/month mortgage and $7000+ taxes and insurance for the same type and sq footage isn't any different?

Do the math and compare the pay. You won't see as big of a pay discrepancy.


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## Natan (May 27, 2013)

If you read all the posts you would see that millerdrr had replied to you even before you wrote the below, anyway here it is what he said, basically confirming what I said.



millerdrr said:


> Cost-of-living isn't substantially lower in the Piedmont Triad, compared to Chicago or other places up north...with the key exception of real estate.
> 
> $600k here will get you an all-brick, brand-new transitional, 4000 sq ft, five bed, four bath McMansion. All other expenses are very similar; prices were higher when I was on the road, but not as might be expected with the 400% difference in wage. Fast food might've been a dollar more; cigarettes were double...but in no way is $15/hr in the south comparable to $50/hr up north.







drspec said:


> So you're telling me that a $1000/month mortgage and $1500 per year property taxes and insurance compared to a $4000/month mortgage and $7000+ taxes and insurance for the same type and sq footage isn't any different?Do the math and compare the pay. You won't see as big of a pay discrepancy.


Where did you get these figures from? I can certainly do the math, but with the correct starting figures, which we can debate on for days and days trying to find an agreement on, just to start….




drspec said:


> Do the math and compare the pay. You won't see as big of a pay discrepancy.


Mmmhh….. I am still convinced of what I said, but if you think that you are right, that the cost of living is so much lower in the south, that very low wages are not a problem, then good for you. I hope it is true and that I am wrong.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

I should clarify, licensing rules are pretty lenient. One licensee can cover as many employees as he wants. I was the only guy that had a license, or even owned a code book. There are no formal education requirements, nor any apprentice rules. A twenty-year journeyman in NC might know less about electrical theory than a guy who just passed a Physics 101 class in a community college. Part of the reason wages were low at my last job was because his employees weren't exactly top-notch electricians. They could handle fluorescent lights, building fixtures, receptacles, emt, and carflex. There were no 3-way switches, transformers, wires above 6 awg, etc... We replaced breakers, but never installed panels. Honestly, the work wasn't much different than what a residential trim-out crew might do, only instead of going from house to house in subdivisions, we went to Lowes stores that were being remodeled, or new stores that were empty, but already wired to bussbars.

The low wage wasn't strictly because of RtW laws. The job really wasn't worth much of a wage.


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## Dobermann315 (Jul 26, 2013)

I've read that electricians are always in demand and their skills are always needed. Can you earn a decent living in a right to work state?

Also, do you have the same opportunities to learn and branch out in the union apprenticeships that are in RTW states?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Dobermann315 said:


> I've read that electricians are always in demand and their skills are always needed. Can you earn a decent living in a right to work state?
> 
> Also, do you have the same opportunities to learn and branch out in the union apprenticeships that are in RTW states?


A good tradesman can always earn a living, union or non union. The opportunities are greater in areas where there is no legislation to diminish worker rights, so if you have a choice, a non 'right to work' state will be better.

One of the advantages of going union is once you have your credentials in order you can travel outside of the 'right to work' areas to where the real money and benefits are.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> A good tradesman can always earn a living, union or non union. The opportunities are greater in areas where there is no legislation to diminish worker rights, so if you have a choice, a non 'right to work' state will be better.


This statement is contradictory. 

Non-right to work infringes on workers rights by allowing union membership to be required for certain jobs. Right to work legislation fixes that injustice by allowing workers to be employed anywhere without being forced to join a union.

How does a worker who doesn't want to join a union have greater opportunities in a non right to work state? It seems their options would be more limited.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

It's important if you want your money to go into paying union dues or not.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> One of the advantages of going union is once you have your credentials in order you can travel outside of the 'right to work' areas to where the real money and benefits are.


Also a false statement.

As has been discussed at length on this forum, "union credentials" are meaningless when it comes to traveling. They give you no advantage over non-union, especially if traveling to an area that requires licensing. Union or non-union, you still have to pass the licensing exam. Your union credentials do nothing special for you.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> Also a false statement.
> 
> As has been discussed at length on this forum, "union credentials" are meaningless when it comes to traveling. They give you no advantage over non-union, especially of traveling to an area that requires licensing. Union or non-union, you still have to pass the licensing exam. Your union credentials do nothing special for you.


The only exception to that would be the IBEW travelers who go around the country doing nothing but power plants, where they are exempt from requiring licensed electricians.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> Also a false statement. As has been discussed at length on this forum, "union credentials" are meaningless when it comes to traveling. They give you no advantage over non-union, especially of traveling to an area that requires licensing. Union or non-union, you still have to pass the licensing exam. Your union credentials do nothing special for you.


Eejack make a false statement????

Oh not him, never........


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> This statement is contradictory.
> 
> Non-right to work infringes on workers rights by allowing union membership to be required for certain jobs. Right to work legislation fixes that injustice by allowing workers to be employed anywhere without being forced to join a union.
> 
> How does a worker who doesn't want to join a union have greater opportunities in a non right to work state? It seems their options would be more limited.


I can understand your confusion but the restriction on worker right's that is 'right to work' infringes upon your ability to negotiate with any sort of vigor. 

'Right to work' really gives the employers all the rights and lessens the worker's pay and benefits.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Also a false statement.
> 
> As has been discussed at length on this forum, "union credentials" are meaningless when it comes to traveling. They give you no advantage over non-union, especially if traveling to an area that requires licensing. Union or non-union, you still have to pass the licensing exam. Your union credentials do nothing special for you.


No, not a false statement. I can work anywhere my IBEW A card is accepted, which is everywhere in the US. My credentials are way more far reaching than your credentials. Are they absolutely complete? No. Is any. No.

Sure, I need to pass an exam to work in some places, the same places you need to pass an exam, but since my credentials are accepted in over a thousand hiring halls no questions asked and those hiring halls will assist me in getting those local requirements that pretty much does it.

Or I can do what non union folks do and read all the want ads...


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MTW said:


> It's important if you want your money to go into paying union dues or not.


This year my $390 in dues earned me $92K in gross.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

eejack said:


> This year my $390 in dues earned me $92K in gross.


Uh huh. Well I would rather make less money and not have one penny go to the IBEW.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

MTW said:


> Uh huh. Well I would rather make less money and not have one penny go to the IBEW.


That is the wonderful thing about America, you can choose a non union job and be happy and content. I agree with you, happiness is worth more than money.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> No, not a false statement. I can work anywhere my IBEW A card is accepted, which is everywhere in the US. My credentials are way more far reaching than your credentials. Are they absolutely complete? No. Is any. No.
> 
> Sure, I need to pass an exam to work in some places, the same places you need to pass an exam, but since my credentials are accepted in over a thousand hiring halls no questions asked and those hiring halls will assist me in getting those local requirements that pretty much does it.
> 
> Or I can do what non union folks do and read all the want ads...


I'm not interested in beating this dead horse with you again. 

Your IBEW credentials are not the golden ticket you portray them to be. In the 5 states I am licensed in, the only credential that matters is the state issued license. Union or non-union, that's the only credential that is recognized by the state as qualifying someone to work as a journeyman electrician. Your IBEW credentials are meaningless.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm not interested in beating this dead horse with you again.
> 
> Your IBEW credentials are not the golden ticket you portray them to be. In the 5 states I am licensed in, the only credential that matters is the state issued license. Union or non-union, that's the only credential that is recognized by the state as qualifying someone to work as a journeyman electrician. Your IBEW credentials are meaningless.


Then don't beat that there horse and be content. Heck I used to travel the country working out of various halls and never ran into an issue with local restrictions. If your licenses give you joy then they give me joy as well.

In truth those licenses are a bit like my IBEW card. They give you entre into a restricted market and you, like me, are passionate about protecting that market. We can both say 'That is my work' with the same timbre. Good for you for sticking up for what is yours.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

:whistling2:


eejack said:


> Holy ****.
> 
> Are you saying that right to work will save us from nazis who want to put us in concentration camps and kill us?
> 
> ...


Please don't use the word "Holy" on here eejack. It has religious undertones!:whistling2::whistling2:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> I can understand your confusion but the restriction on worker right's that is 'right to work' infringes upon your ability to negotiate with any sort of vigor.
> 
> 'Right to work' really gives the employers all the rights and lessens the worker's pay and benefits.


There is no confusion on my part. 

I live in a non right to work state, however I'm not a member of a union and still manage to negotiate with plenty of "vigor". Right to work gives employees more opportunities to earn a living without the intrusion of being forced to join a union. You can't spin that any other way no matter how hard you try. 

Being a non right to work state limits where I can work and maintain my non-union status. I interviewed for an in-house electrician position at a local hospital and was offered the job. I would have been forced to join a union if I had accepted the job. This was not the only reason I turned the job down, but was in the con column when I made my list of pros and cons trying to make my decision. I don't want to join a union and shouldn't be forced to against my will.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> There is no confusion on my part.
> 
> I live in a non right to work state, however I'm not a member of a union and still manage to negotiate with plenty of "vigor". Right to work gives employees more opportunities to earn a living without the intrusion of being forced to join a union. You can't spin that any other way no matter how hard you try.
> 
> Being a non right to work state limits where I can work and maintain my non-union status. I interviewed for an in-house electrician position at a local hospital and was offered the job. I would have been forced to join a union if I had accepted the job. This was not the only reason I turned the job down, but was in the con column when I made my list of pros and cons trying to make my decision. I don't want to join a union and shouldn't be forced to against my will.


Your wages and benefits are higher because you are not restricted in negotiating with your employers. The presence of collectively bargaining workers in your area raises what you earn. 

The problem with 'right to work' is worker's rights are diminished or destroyed. 

No one is forcing you to join a union, it is a choice. You chose not to do it. You cannot spin that into being 'forced' no matter how hard you try.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I interviewed for an in-house electrician position at a local hospital and was offered the job. I would have been forced to join a union if I had accepted the job.


Out of curiousity what would the union have required of you? Dues and what else? If the other reasons why you didn't take the job were not a factor, was the union burden enough to keep you away from the job?

I ask because what my local requires of me is so minimal and my return is so high....


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> Out of curiousity what would the union have required of you? Dues and what else? If the other reasons why you didn't take the job were not a factor, was the union burden enough to keep you away from the job?
> 
> I ask because what my local requires of me is so minimal and my return is so high....


I didn't get far enough into the process to find out the details of the union. I am strongly anti-union, so just the thought of becoming a union member was bad enough. 

Honestly the union thing wasn't necessarily the deal breaker, but it was a factor. The pay was lower, but benefits were better than what I have now. A couple of the biggest turn offs were the fact that I still would have had to be on call (which is one of the things I hate the most about my job and would like to get away from), and the slow pace of work (I need to stay busy, don't think I could handle all the down time involved in this particular job). If the opportunity was overall a better situation I may have been able to deal with the union thing. Sometimes you have to take the bad with the good. There's pros and cons with every situation. If joining the union were the only con, maybe, but there were too many other cons to accept the job.


----------



## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

MTW said:


> Uh huh. Well I would rather make less money and not have one penny go to the IBEW.


 I read this as...

I tried to get in but was not smart enough to pass the math portion of the testing.......so SCREW those guys! (fist shake smiley):laughing:


----------



## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

MTW needs to run this course of action across his wife first. If she finds out he's working for 30% less just to nurture his pride, she might just go find a real man.


----------



## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

mr hands said:


> MTW needs to run this course of action across his wife first. If she finds out he's working for 30% less just to nurture his pride, she might just go find a real man.


What about the veracity of post #24 ?


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Dobermann315 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am following up on another thread where I said I am applying to two IBEW apprenticeship programs. One is up north and is not in a right to work state (stronger union) and the other is in Florida which is a right to work state (weaker union).
> 
> ...


its real important when you want to make less money


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So at the end of the day, it's not about credentials , it's about who has the upper hand. 

That RTW confronts the _concept_ of collective bargaining , which apparently can't stand on it's _own_ merit speaks volumes of it's integrity

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

lefleuron said:


> I read this as...
> 
> I tried to get in but was not smart enough to pass the math portion of the testing.......so SCREW those guys! (fist shake smiley):laughing:


How wrong you would be then. I was actually accepted into the IBEW apprenticeship program in New Haven, CT back in 2003 but I backed out of it a few weeks later. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The IBEW rep & salt took me out to lunch ,told me how great i was & how good i'd do as a brother decades ago.

big whoop. :whistling2:

I've managed to open my own doors, make my own living, and do it w/o needing to utilize any proprietary legislation





:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:

~CS~


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> I read this as... I tried to get in but was not smart enough to pass the math portion of the testing.......so SCREW those guys! (fist shake smiley):laughing:


I read this as..... I tried to get onto millers new forum cause I wanted to cry about how e. J. T. Got shut down but that was also shut down so I am here crying on a union thread....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> This statement is contradictory.
> 
> Non-right to work infringes on workers rights by allowing union membership to be required for certain jobs. Right to work legislation fixes that injustice by allowing workers to be employed anywhere without being forced to join a union.
> 
> How does a worker who doesn't want to join a union have greater opportunities in a non right to work state? It seems their options would be more limited.


Hey EB, 
What kind of flag is that flying in your avatar?


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Hey EB, What kind of flag is that flying in your avatar?


That's a firefighter flag


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

lefleuron said:


> I read this as...
> 
> I tried to get in but was not smart enough to pass the math portion of the testing.......so SCREW those guys! (fist shake smiley):laughing:


This is such a tired argument. Why is so hard to believe that some of us actually see what the union is about and don't want to be associated with it? The IBEW's mission is to unionize all electrical workers everywhere, yet they constantly belittle and demean non-union electricians and try to tell us how inferior we are. Some of us know that isn't true, but there are a lot of younger, more impressionable kids that believe it. If your union were as great as you say it is we would all be beating the door down trying to get in, but we're not. Why do you think that is?


I didn't even know the IBEW existed when I was a 19 y/o kid getting into this trade. I was very naive, actually got into the trade somewhat by accident. Found an ad in the paper, went on the interveiw not really knowing exactly what I was interviewing for. They offered me the job anyway and I figured what the hell and gave it a shot (worst decision of my life). I didn't learn of the IBEW's existence until a few months in when they showed up to picket the job I was on. They made quite a first impression. Impeding our access into the jobsite, verbally harassing us on our way into work everyday,telling us how stupid we were for w being non-union, telling us we were taking "their jobs", it was great. A bunch of entitled douchbags. Really showed me an organization that I will never, ever want to be associated with. The more I learned about them, the more I realized that life isn't for me.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Maltese cross jrannis....:thumbsup:


~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Hey EB,
> What kind of flag is that flying in your avatar?


That's a Maltese cross, the symbol of the fire service.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> This is such a tired argument. Why is so hard to believe that some of us actually see what the union is about and don't want to be associated with it? The IBEW's mission is to unionize all electrical workers everywhere, yet they constantly belittle and demean non-union electricians and try to tell us how inferior we are. Some of us know that isn't true, but there are a lot of younger, more impressionable kids that believe it. If your union were as great as you say it is we would all be beating the door down trying to get in, but we're not. Why do you think that is?
> 
> 
> I didn't even know the IBEW existed when I was a 19 y/o kid getting into this trade. I was very naive, actually got into the trade somewhat by accident. Found an ad in the paper, went on the interveiw not really knowing exactly what I was interviewing for. They offered me the job anyway and I figured what the hell and gave it a shot (worst decision of my life). I didn't learn of the IBEW's existence until a few months in when they showed up to picket the job I was on. They made quite a first impression. Impeding our access into the jobsite, verbally harassing us on our way into work everyday,telling us how stupid we were for w being non-union, telling us we were taking "their jobs", it was great. A bunch of entitled douchbags. Really showed me an organization that I will never, ever want to be associated with. The more I learned about them, the more I realized that life isn't for me.



It's unfortunate, especially for those of us that believe in collective bargianing that they operate in such a detrimental manner

That said, the better thought and spoken of them know their representation is rather myopic 

~CS~


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> This is such a tired argument. Why is so hard to believe that some of us actually see what the union is about and don't want to be associated with it? The IBEW's mission is to unionize all electrical workers everywhere, yet they constantly belittle and demean non-union electricians and try to tell us how inferior we are. Some of us know that isn't true, but there are a lot of younger, more impressionable kids that believe it. If your union were as great as you say it is we would all be beating the door down trying to get in, but we're not. Why do you think that is? I didn't even know the IBEW existed when I was a 19 y/o kid getting into this trade. I was very naive, actually got into the trade somewhat by accident. Found an ad in the paper, went on the interveiw not really knowing exactly what I was interviewing for. They offered me the job anyway and I figured what the hell and gave it a shot (worst decision of my life). I didn't learn of the IBEW's existence until a few months in when they showed up to picket the job I was on. They made quite a first impression. Impeding our access into the jobsite, verbally harassing us on our way into work everyday,telling us how stupid we were for w being non-union, telling us we were taking "their jobs", it was great. A bunch of entitled douchbags. Really showed me an organization that I will never, ever want to be associated with. The more I learned about them, the more I realized that life isn't for me.


If it wasn't for this forum I would have forgotten all about the ibew.

That is how much of a non issue it is.

To these union guys that is ALL it is to them.

Not just an issue but THE only issue.

It is sad. The OP would rather live somewhere just because of the union then just live somewhere he liked.

There is a lot more to life then that....


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> That's a firefighter flag


So, that department isn't represented by the IAFF or benefits from the work of the IFFA as far as working conditions and compensation?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> That's a Maltese cross, the symbol of the fire service.


so your not _really_ a monk from the isle of Malta....? :laughing:~CS~


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> So, that department isn't represented by the IAFF or benefits from the work of the IFFA as far as working conditions and compensation?


He is probably volunteer. I am a volunteer. 

There is more to life then union issues.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

robnj772 said:


> He is probably volunteer. I am a volunteer.
> 
> There is more to life then union issues.


Unionism is a religion to some of these guys.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> So, that department isn't represented by the IAFF or benefits from the work of the IFFA as far as working conditions and compensation?



oooooohhhh.....you'se _sooooooo_ bad this a.m...... ~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> He is probably volunteer. I am a volunteer.
> 
> There is more to life then union issues.



osha did away with the term 'vollie' years ago Rob

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

btw, i give $$$ to local IAFF fire dept annually

does that make me a union supporter? :whistling2::laughing:

~CS~


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

MTW said:


> Unionism is a religion to some of these guys.


And it's very sad.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Unionism is a religion to some of these guys.


I wonder if Antone LaVey ever thought about that.....:laughing:~CS~


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> He is probably volunteer. I am a volunteer.
> 
> There is more to life then union issues.


Ok so then, you like the benefits, safety standards, etc, you just don't want to see someone pay for them. 

Let me see, where did we put that "S" word?


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

jrannis said:


> So, that department isn't represented by the IAFF or benefits from the work of the IFFA as far as working conditions and compensation?


No, we are a small town Paid on-call fire department, formerly volunteer, same concept except now we get paid hourly when we respond to calls.

We receive no benefits from the IAFF or PFFM(professional firefighters of Massachusetts). They actually feel the same way about us as the IBEW does about non-union electricians. They think that if we all quit, the town(s) would be forced to hire fulltime firefighters (who could then be union members, and pay dues :whistling2. This of course isn't viable or cost effective for a small town that does 100 calls a year, most of which are car accidents or activated alarm calls (false alarms). We do approx. 6-10 actual fires a year, hardly enough to justify paying a fulltime fire department. Of course as far as the union is concerned, money is no problem. Just milk the public for some more tax money and pay the firefighters to sit around playing cards all day, the union needs the dues money.

So I deal with the union bullsh1t at work, I deal with it on the fire department. I'm up to my eyeballs with union bullsh1t. At least the fire unions don't allow it to carry into the job. When a fire happens all the area departments work together, union/volunteer/POC, it doesn't matter. We get the job done. The politics can wait.




Have I mentioned I hate unions?:laughing:


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> And it's very sad.


What's sad is all the crying you do about the union. So sad.:thumbsup:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Ok so then, you like the benefits, safety standards, etc, you just don't want to see someone pay for them.  Let me see, where did we put that "S" word?


What benefits???????

Someone pay for what?

Do you have any idea how much taxes would go up and safety would go down if it wasn't for volunteer firemen?

News flash for you, most of the firemen in the US are volunteer and get no benefits other then knowing they are doing a good thing. 

This statement of yours shows just how either stupid or brainwashed you are.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

So I deal with the union bullsh1t at work, I deal with it on the fire department. I'm up to my eyeballs with union bullsh1t. At least the fire unions don't allow it to carry into the job. When a fire happens all the area departments work together, union/volunteer/POC, it doesn't matter. We get the job done. The politics can wait.




Have I mentioned I hate unions?:laughing:[/quote]
Here's a tissue. Man I thought guys up north were tougher. Sound like a bunch of whine bags.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Here's a tissue. Man I thought guys up north were tougher. Sound like a bunch of whine bags.


Who's whining? I'm just speaking the truth. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings to hear it, but I'm not going to sugar coat it. Save that tissue for your next union meeting, I'm sure you'll need it.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Who's whining? I'm just speaking the truth. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings to hear it, but I'm not going to sugar coat it. Save that tissue for your next union meeting, I'm sure you'll need it.


You cry more than a infant with colic. Get a hold of yourself, you sound pathetic.


----------



## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

Great benefits, training, and pay. This is what the union does for me. I am in a right to work state also. 

To the OP, don't let others bias dictate your decision. Do some research and talk to local tradesmen about the facts. Make an informed decision. 

I may not agree with everything my local does but I don't have to. You can't please everyone all the time.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Thanks asshole, but
> Who do you think sets the safety standards and certification levels, Santa Clause? Member dues, just like the IBEW does in our trade.


The State Department of Fire Services (state fire marshal's office)

The fire unions are looking out for 1 thing, the wallets of their members. They are interested in how much money they can suck out of the taxpayers in the 30 years they "work" before they can retire at 50 and start their second career while collecting their pensions that they spent 30 years watching tv and drinking coffee to "earn".


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> You cry more than a infant with colic. Get a hold of yourself, you sound pathetic.




Maybe I should join the union. I'd fit right in.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Thanks asshole, but
> Who do you think sets the safety standards and certification levels, Santa Clause? Member dues, just like the IBEW does in our trade.


Do you want to stop with the name calling?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> You cry more than a infant with colic. Get a hold of yourself, you sound pathetic.


The only one I see crying is you and your name calling buddy.

Enough of the " cheap shots"


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

EBFD6 said:


> The State Department of Fire Services (state fire marshal's office)
> 
> The fire unions are looking out for 1 thing, the wallets of their members. They are interested in how much money they can suck out of the taxpayers in the 30 years they "work" before they can retire at 50 and start their second career while collecting their pensions that they spent 30 years watching tv and drinking coffee to "earn".


Yes, the Fire fighters association is mostly volunteer and they take care of the training and all that.

The union has nothing to do with it at all.

Its hilarious that jr is even trying to go there


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Do you want to stop with the name calling?


Rob, read back, you threw down first.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Yes, the Fire fighters association is mostly volunteer and they take care of the training and all that.
> 
> The union has nothing to do with it at all.
> 
> Its hilarious that jr is even trying to go there


Ok then, just look back a very little bit and let me know how the standards in the FF industry were established.
Do you think they just showed up on the firehouse doorstep like an abandon infant?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Rob, read back, you threw down first.


Oh really???

Where?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Ok then, just look back a very little bit and let me know how the standards in the FF industry were established.
> Do you think they just showed up on the firehouse doorstep like an abandon infant?


People have been putting out fires since the caveman era.

The standards evolved as technology grew.

Stop giving the union credit, they are not gods.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> No, not a false statement. I can work anywhere my IBEW A card is accepted, which is everywhere in the US. My credentials are way more far reaching than your credentials. Are they absolutely complete? No. Is any. No..


Just stop, really we have discussed this at length, being in the union gives you no advantage for traveling. You have to pass the areas testing just like a non union member.

When you continually out right lie about the facts you become a joke.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> That is the wonderful thing about America, you can choose a non union job and be happy and content. I agree with you, happiness is worth more than money.


Unless you are in a non-right to work state, than you might be forced to go union to do the job you want.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Just stop, really we have discussed this at length, being in the union gives you no advantage for traveling. You have to pass the areas testing just like a non union member.
> 
> When you continually out right lie about the facts you become a joke.


Bob,
You might be surprised at how many thousands of guys travel around on their yellow ticket and not have to have any other license.
If a local exam is required, work history is well documented and guys don't really have much trouble passing a Journeyman exam.
I can see it both ways.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> People have been putting out fires since the caveman era.
> 
> The standards evolved as technology grew.
> 
> Stop giving the union credit, they are not gods.


I didn't say "gods" , just walking among the gods.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Oh really???
> 
> Where?


Post #76 and it still hurts.:icon_cry:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Just stop, really we have discussed this at length, being in the union gives you no advantage for traveling. You have to pass the areas testing just like a non union member.
> 
> When you continually out right lie about the facts you become a joke.


You couldn't be any wronger. That ticket let's you travel where the work is. Ok you may have to take a local test or something, but not always. I've traveled with my ticket and all the money followed me back to my local accounts. Can't beat that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> The only one I see crying is you and your name calling buddy.
> 
> Enough of the " cheap shots"


I'm not your buddy and don't forget it scumbag.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Maybe I should join the union. I'd fit right in.


Remember they didn't want you.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Post #76 and it still hurts.:icon_cry:





robnj772 said:


> What benefits???????
> 
> Someone pay for what?
> 
> ...


That's a far cry from name calling and using potty words


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I'm not your buddy and don't forget it scumbag.


You want to stop name calling?

All you have done is call names and use " Cheap shots"


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Do you want to stop with the name calling?


Little robbies feelings are hurt.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> You couldn't be any wronger. That ticket let's you travel where the work is. Ok you may have to take a local test or something, but not always.


Yes you can do that, *just like a non union member can.*

Being in the union does not give you a leg up on the areas licensing requirements.


If I am wrong post the specific issue I am wrong about.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> You want to stop name calling?
> 
> All you have done is call names and use " Cheap shots"


Funny how your sig is a cheap shot at someone. Pathetic.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Yes you can do that, *just like a non union member can.*
> 
> Being in the union does not give you a leg up on the areas licensing requirements.
> 
> ...


You say it doesn't give you an advantage. I say it does and gave a good example. I can go anywhere in the U.S. and my card is recognized like Visa:thumbup:. Then all the money I've earned follows me back to my individual funds. Sounds advantageous to me.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> You might be surprised at how many thousands of guys travel around on their yellow ticket and not have to have any other license.
> If a local exam is required, work history is well documented and guys don't really have much trouble passing a Journeyman exam.
> I can see it both ways.


John, that is exactly the same that a non-union member can do. 

Again, you can keep saying it like eejack but the fact is if the area requires licensing a traveler, union or non-union will have to take the testing.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Remember they didn't want you.


Nice try. Obviously they don't teach reading comprehension in the IBEW apprenticeship.




EBFD6 said:


> I didn't even know the IBEW existed when I was a 19 y/o kid getting into this trade. I was very naive, actually got into the trade somewhat by accident. Found an ad in the paper, went on the interveiw not really knowing exactly what I was interviewing for. They offered me the job anyway and I figured what the hell and gave it a shot (worst decision of my life). I didn't learn of the IBEW's existence until a few months in when they showed up to picket the job I was on. They made quite a first impression. Impeding our access into the jobsite, verbally harassing us on our way into work everyday,telling us how stupid we were for w being non-union, telling us we were taking "their jobs", it was great. A bunch of entitled douchbags. Really showed me an organization that I will never, ever want to be associated with. The more I learned about them, the more I realized that life isn't for me.


I have never, and will never apply for IBEW union membership. I will make minimum wage flipping burgers at Micky D's first.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Just stop, really we have discussed this at length, being in the union gives you no advantage for traveling. You have to pass the areas testing just like a non union member.
> 
> When you continually out right lie about the facts you become a joke.


I don't know eejack from a hole in the ground, but i don't think ive ever read a false post by him.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Nice try. Obviously they don't teach reading comprehension in the IBEW apprenticeship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's probably your skill level anyways.:laughing:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Little robbies feelings are hurt.


The only ones acting like babies, name calling, crying, are you and your little buddy jrannus.

Looks like since you resorted to that type of behavior YOU are the one with hurt feelings and butthurt.

:thumbup:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> John, that is exactly the same that a non-union member can do.
> 
> Again, you can keep saying it like eejack but the fact is if the area requires licensing a traveler, union or non-union will have to take the testing.


So what, most of us completed a 5 year apprenticeship. You just take the test.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> You couldn't be any wronger. That ticket let's you travel where the work is. Ok you may have to take a local test or something, but not always. I've traveled with my ticket and all the money followed me back to my local accounts. Can't beat that.


This really makes no sense.

If anything, it's HARDER to travel as a union member since you have to adhere to all the rules and sign up on a list. 

A non-union worker can go and work wherever he wants without waiting his turn. And all of his pay, retirement, or any other money goes wherever he chooses it to go, instead of a union.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I don't know eejack from a hole in the ground, but i don't think ive ever read a false post by him.


The bullsh1t's getting pretty deep in here now.



Loose Neutral said:


> That's probably your skill level anyways.:laughing:




Obviously this thread has run it's course.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I don't know eejack from a hole in the ground, but i don't think ive ever read a false post by him.












Oh you funny guy!!!!


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> You say it doesn't give you an advantage. I say it does and gave a good example. I can go anywhere in the U.S. and my card is recognized like Visa:thumbup:.


Sorry, your Visa card had been declined. :laughing:

Your card means nothing in my area, you could not work as more than a laborer until you pass the local tests.




> Then all the money I've earned follows me back to my individual funds. Sounds advantageous to me.


Yeah, they won't let non-union members take the money with them. 

At least try to make sense. :laughing:


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> You say it doesn't give you an advantage. I say it does and gave a good example. I can go anywhere in the U.S. and my card is recognized like Visa:thumbup:. Then all the money I've earned follows me back to my individual funds. Sounds advantageous to me.


Again, this makes no sense.

The only people who care about your "Visa" card is the union. A non-union person isn't constrained with cards and union rules.

Traveling is MUCH easier for non-union workers.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> The only ones acting like babies, name calling, crying, are you and your little buddy jrannus.
> 
> Looks like since you resorted to that type of behavior YOU are the one with hurt feelings and butthurt.
> 
> :thumbup:


There you go again calling jrannis names again. You are a hypocrite.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Again, this makes no sense.
> 
> The only people who care about your "Visa" card is the union. A non-union person isn't constrained with cards and union rules.
> 
> Traveling is MUCH easier for non-union workers.


What's easier than singing your name and if they have work they put you out to work?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> This really makes no sense.
> 
> If anything, it's HARDER to travel as a union member since you have to adhere to all the rules and sign up on a list.
> 
> A non-union worker can go and work wherever he wants without waiting his turn. And all of his pay, retirement, or any other money goes wherever he chooses it to go, instead of a union.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Sorry, your Visa card had been declined. :laughing:
> 
> Your card means nothing in my area, you could not work as more than a laborer until you pass the local tests.
> 
> ...


Whoa a local test whoopty doo, just take the test and go to work.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> What's easier than singing your name and if they have work they put you out to work?


How is that any different than non-union?

You need to adhere to state or local laws for licensing in both situations.

I don't think you know much about traveling in either situation.

How many years have you been in the IBEW and what percentage have you worked out of your territory? I've got 15 years and about 55% traveling.


----------



## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

wow!

after reading post from pro union members I now want to be in the IBEW

where do I sign up?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> There you go again calling jrannis names again. You are a hypocrite.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Good luck with that.


Look here folks, this is what happens when someone digs themselves into a hole and is getting buried with facts that he can't refute :laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Sorry, your Visa card had been declined. :laughing:
> 
> Your card means nothing in my area, you could not work as more than a laborer until you pass the local tests.
> 
> ...


I'm talking 401, medical and retirement. I doubt non union will be getting that on the road, but good luck with it. When i hit NY, NJ, Pa locals it's like i didn't miss a beat. Works for me.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Haxwoper said:


> This really makes no sense.
> 
> If anything,* it's HARDER to travel as a union member* since you have to adhere to all the rules and sign up on a list.
> 
> A non-union worker can go and work wherever he wants without waiting his turn. * And all of his pay, retirement, or any other money goes wherever he chooses it to go, instead of a union*.


1. a union member can call a hall to see if there is work. I can call 30 areas in the country that cover a whole lot of square mileage faster than a non union member can look in newspapers or craigslist. Harder for a union member , really 

2. Yea, the union hiring investment professions to determine how much money you need in all the different funds , so when you retire you are set financially, is a great idea. BTW, the members still vote on their recommendations.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> What's easier than singing your name and if they have work they put you out to work?


You can't be out out to work until you pass the areas testing requirements. Your union membership does not allow you to bypass that.


And how welcome are union travelers in an area that already has a large group on the bench? Do the locals members give you a big hug and say hey, great, glad you are here, you take my place. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> I'm talking 401, medical and retirement.


Yes, I understood that.:laughing:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> I'm talking 401, medical and retirement. I doubt non union will be getting that on the road, but good luck with it. When i hit NY, NJ, Pa locals it's like i didn't miss a beat. Works for me.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Sorry, your Visa card had been declined. :laughing:
> 
> Your card means nothing in my area, you could not work as more than a laborer until you pass the local tests.
> 
> ...


Bob, 
I don't think the project was very well managed but, did they bring in much outside labor for the big dig or was it all local people?


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

You guys have much longer attention spans and more patience than I do.

:yawn:



:bangin:



:wallbash:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You can't be out out to work until you pass the areas testing requirements. Your union membership does not allow you to bypass that.
> 
> 
> And how welcome are union travelers in an area that already has a large group on the bench? Do the locals members give you a big hug and say hey, great, glad you are here, you take my place. :laughing:


Sometimes the licensing part is proof of a accredited apprenticeship. Simple as that. When your traveling you go to book 2 not ahead of book 1 so you wouldn't be in that position. I thought with all your union knowledge you would know that.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

BBQ said:


> You can't be out out to work until you pass the areas testing requirements. Your union membership does not allow you to bypass that.
> 
> 
> And how welcome are union travelers in an area that already has a large group on the bench? Do the locals members give you a big hug and say hey, great, glad you are here, you take my place. :laughing:


all the local guys are working if there are travelers on the job, or the local guys did not want to work on that project. There are a lot of travelers on the job I am currently on, they are as welcome as the locals.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

360max said:


> 1. a union member can call a hall to see if there is work. I can call 30 areas in the country that cover a whole lot of square mileage faster than a non union member can look in newspapers or craigslist. Harder for a union member , really
> 
> 2. Yea, the union hiring investment professions to determine how much money you need in all the different funds , so when you retire you are set financially, is a great idea. BTW, the members still vote on their recommendations.












Now this thread is done.

Super troll is here


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> How is that any different than non-union?
> 
> You need to adhere to state or local laws for licensing in both situations.
> 
> ...


1. I sign my name you fill out an application.
2. Really your wrong.
3. I have more time than you, but you have more time on the road.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> Now this thread is done.
> 
> Super troll is here


yea, your troll baiting when facts disrupt your posting:laughing::thumbsup:


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> The State Department of Fire Services (state fire marshal's office)
> 
> The fire unions are looking out for 1 thing, the wallets of their members. They are interested in how much money they can suck out of the taxpayers in the 30 years they "work" before they can retire at 50 and start their second career while collecting their pensions that they spent 30 years watching tv and drinking coffee to "earn".


I hate to say this but, the full term firefighters I know that retired early didn't make it into their 70s.
That means, if they retire at 50 or 55, they got less than 20 left.
All it takes is one lung or two full of diarrhea smoke and your life clock ticks a whole lot faster.
Sux but, it's a good karma job when you get to save a life. I'm sure you have done it a dozen times or more if you are a paramedic.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> 1. I sign my name you fill out an application.
> 2. Really your wrong.
> 3. I have more time than you, but you have more time on the road.


He is a contractor and a business owner.

What application is he filling out?


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> 1. I sign my name you fill out an application.
> 2. Really your wrong.
> 3. I have more time than you, but you have more time on the road.


No, I am not wrong. You have *more rules and restrictions* when traveling as a union member than you do when traveling as a non-union worker.

The union member has to follow ALL the same rules and licensing as the non-union member, plus a LOT more union rules. 

I can go anywhere right now and work non-union. 
I absolutely, positively can NOT go anywhere right now and work union.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Loose Neutral said:


> 1. I sign my name you fill out an application.
> 2. Really your wrong.
> 3. I have more time than you, but you have more time on the road.


he knows that , he's* 'turnpiking'*, new slang for NJ trolling:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> How is that any different than non-union?
> 
> You need to adhere to state or local laws for licensing in both situations.
> 
> ...


Ive been lucky with work in my local and only hit sister locals between jobs. I have traveled to the NYC area when friends are working in the area or our contractors have work there.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Now this thread is done.
> 
> Super troll is here


More name calling, what a *****.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> I hate to say this but, the full term firefighters I know that retired early didn't make it into their 70s.
> That means, if they retire at 50 or 55, they got less than 20 left.
> All it takes is one lung or two full of diarrhea smoke and your life clock ticks a whole lot faster.
> Sux but, it's a good karma job when you get to save a life. I'm sure you have done it a dozen times or more if you are a paramedic.


Yea that's right fireman don't save lives just paramedics

Nice troll, didn't work


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> More name calling, what a *****.


Every time you post all I see is


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> No, I am not wrong. You have *more rules and restrictions* when traveling as a union member than you do when traveling as a non-union worker.
> 
> The union member has to follow ALL the same rules and licensing as the non-union member, plus a LOT more union rules.
> 
> ...


Whats all these complicated rules you speak of. Its just electrical work.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Haxwoper said:


> No, I am not wrong. You have *more rules and restrictions* when traveling as a union member than you do when traveling as a non-union worker.
> 
> The union member has to follow ALL the same rules and licensing as the non-union member, plus a LOT more union rules.
> 
> ...


...you still have to follow all the same local rules as union, so I am missing your point. If an area required a license, both you and union guys need to acquire that license.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Still haven't called any names here
> 
> So who is the *****?


You called the man a troll. Man your not to bright are you?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> He is a contractor and a business owner.
> 
> What application is he filling out?


Were talking about men traveling not him specifically. Get off his balls and try to follow the thread.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Whats all these complicated rules you speak of. Its just electrical work.


So you are going to ignore the entire book system? The fact that you can't go somewhere and work right now unless the local approves it and every one of their members is out working and everyone on book 2 before you is working? 

What about local drug tests?


Honestly, you few union members here that argue this ignorance really make the IBEW look bad.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> Yea that's right fireman don't save lives just paramedics
> 
> Nice troll, didn't work


I didn't know there was a difference, you said they both taste like chicken.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Were talking about men traveling not him specifically. Get off his balls and try to follow the thread.


You try following the thread



Dobermann315 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am following up on another thread where I said I am applying to two IBEW apprenticeship programs. One is up north and is not in a right to work state (stronger union) and the other is in Florida which is a right to work state (weaker union).
> 
> ...


And he only has one ball BTW


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> I didn't know there was a difference, you said they both taste like chicken.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> So you are going to ignore the entire book system? The fact that you can't go somewhere and work right now unless the local approves it and every one of their members is out working and everyone on book 2 before you is working?
> 
> What about local drug tests?
> 
> ...


That's the system. If work is slow in your jusisdiction and there is an abundance of work in another local, you go sign there books. If they can they will put you to work. You know this. Why are you trying to complicate it. There's nothing ignorant about it. The system has worked for many years.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

robnj772 said:


> You try following the thread
> 
> 
> 
> And he only has one ball BTW


thanks for verifying :laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> You try following the thread
> 
> 
> 
> And he only has one ball BTW


Yeah and i gave my opinion on where to work. Man your thick. Ok get of his ball.:laughing:


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> That's the system. If work is slow in your jusisdiction and there is an abundance of work in another local, you go sign there books. If they can they will put you to work. You know this. Why are you trying to complicate it. There's nothing ignorant about it. The system has worked for many years.



Once again I will state that traveling is easier for a non-union worker. He can go anywhere and work, he ONLY has to follow state/city rules and laws.

It's much harder for a union worker to travel. Not only does he have to follow the state/city rules and laws, but the rules of the union as well. And in most cases, a worker can't just pick somewhere to go and work since he will have to wait on Book 2.

The fact is what you said earlier is false. Being a union member is a disadvantage to someone looking to travel.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Bob,
> I don't think the project was very well managed but, did they bring in much outside labor for the big dig or was it all local people?


Well as much as a pork barrel project as it was I do not think it employed that many electrcians. Boston had a ton of other work going on for electrians at the time.


But regardless of that, any and all electrians coming in to mass to work as electrians in mass would have to get their time approved. This would likely happen no problem but it takes time to go through the state. Once the time was approved they could apply to take the licensing test. Last I knew those happen twice a year. So the process of getting licensed to work, union or non-union could be 7 - 8 months.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Again, this makes no sense.
> 
> The only people who care about your "Visa" card is the union. A non-union person isn't constrained with cards and union rules.
> 
> Traveling is MUCH easier for non-union workers.


The only people I'm concerned about when traveling, is the union.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

360max said:


> thanks for verifying :laughing:


The guy has cancer.

The only thing verified is that you are a troll


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> The only people I'm concerned about when traveling, is the union.


Yet you compared union to non-union.

And your statement was wrong.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> The only people I'm concerned about when traveling, is the union.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Then you can't work in a lot of places but please continue, you are entertaining.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Once again I will state that traveling is easier for a non-union worker. He can go anywhere and work, he ONLY has to follow state/city rules and laws.
> 
> It's much harder for a union worker to travel. Not only does he have to follow the state/city rules and laws, but the rules of the union as well. And in most cases, a worker can't just pick somewhere to go and work since he will have to wait on Book 2.
> 
> The fact is what you said earlier is false. Being a union member is a disadvantage to someone looking to travel.


In reality I could go and get that non union job too if i wanted. So i do have more options.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> In reality I could go and get that non union job too if i wanted. So i do have more options.


That's not what we were talking about. If you did that you would be brought up on charges. You are talking outside the rules now.

So you concede that it's harder to travel as a union member than as a non-union member?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Then you can't work in a lot of places but please continue, you are entertaining.


Glad i could help.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> That's not what we were talking about. If you did that you would be brought up on charges. You are talking outside the rules now.
> 
> So you concede that it's harder to travel as a union member than as a non-union member?


Not at all.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Not at all.


Well, you haven't backed up your side in any way, shape, or form.

Typical for a union member :laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Well, you haven't backed up your side in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> Typical for a union member :laughing:


Ive stated the facts. If you dont like it or your experience is different then oh well.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Once the time was approved they could apply to take the licensing test. Last I knew those happen twice a year. So the process of getting licensed to work, union or non-union could be 7 - 8 months.


This actually changed 10+ years ago in MA. Now that the testing is done on computer the tests are offered everyday. Once your paperwork gets approved you call the testing center with your confirmation number and schedule a test appointment. The testing company that administers the electrical exams also does many other licensing exams, plumbers, EMT, etc....

I actually took my masters exam and my EMT exam at the same testing site. When I took my EMT, there were people sitting at the other computer stations taking the plumbing exam, electrical, CNA, .... 

Connecticut was the same way. The days of 100 guys sitting in a room taking the written exam that is only offered a couple times a year are long gone. Except, for Rhode Island, they are still stuck in the stone age.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Ive stated the facts. If you dont like it or your experience is different then oh well.


What facts have you stated that support the idea that being a union member makes it easier to travel and get work?


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> In reality I could go and get that non union job too if i wanted. So i do have more options.


Union hypocrisy, how refreshing. 

The rules are the rules unless you don't want to follow them, then it's ok. Just pick and choose what rules you want to follow, but make sure the contractors follow the agreement to the letter.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Ive stated the facts. If you dont like it or your experience is different then oh well.


Any facts that you stated do not prove to say that it is easier to travel as a union member. The truth is that it's harder. There are more regulations and if you picked any random spot in the country there's a 99% chance that there is either A) no union there or B) book 1 and 2 are not empty (meaning you CANT work).

Hell, to work out of my local you need to pay for a drug test, yet another hurdle that non union workers don't have to deal with.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Haxwoper said:


> Any facts that you stated do not prove to say that it is easier to travel as a union member. The truth is that it's harder. There are more regulations and if you picked any random spot in the country there's a 99% chance that there is either A) no union there or B) book 1 and 2 are not empty (meaning you CANT work).
> 
> Hell, to work out of my local you need to pay for a drug test, yet another hurdle that non union workers don't have to deal with.


But loose neutral can do what ever he wants :whistling2:

You and I both know that travelers are never welcome


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> This actually changed 10+ years ago in MA. Now that the testing is done on computer the tests are offered everyday. Once your paperwork gets approved you call the testing center with your confirmation number and schedule a test appointment. The testing company that administers the electrical exams also does many other licensing exams, plumbers, EMT, etc....
> 
> I actually took my masters exam and my EMT exam at the same testing site. When I took my EMT, there were people sitting at the other computer stations taking the plumbing exam, electrical, CNA, ....
> 
> Connecticut was the same way. The days of 100 guys sitting in a room taking the written exam that is only offered a couple times a year are long gone. Except, for Rhode Island, they are still stuck in the stone age.


Nice, so my visa is accepted.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Well as much as a pork barrel project as it was I do not think it employed that many electrcians. Boston had a ton of other work going on for electrians at the time.
> 
> 
> But regardless of that, any and all electrians coming in to mass to work as electrians in mass would have to get their time approved. This would likely happen no problem but it takes time to go through the state. Once the time was approved they could apply to take the licensing test. Last I knew those happen twice a year. So the process of getting licensed to work, union or non-union could be 7 - 8 months.


I think they used to say Boston was a very tight place to get into. Are local licenses something in recent history?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Union hypocrisy, how refreshing.
> 
> The rules are the rules unless you don't want to follow them, then it's ok. Just pick and choose what rules you want to follow, but make sure the contractors follow the agreement to the letter.


No, I said if i wanted .


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What facts have you stated that support the idea that being a union member makes it easier to travel and get work?


Read my posts.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Any facts that you stated do not prove to say that it is easier to travel as a union member. The truth is that it's harder. There are more regulations and if you picked any random spot in the country there's a 99% chance that there is either A) no union there or B) book 1 and 2 are not empty (meaning you CANT work).
> 
> Hell, to work out of my local you need to pay for a drug test, yet another hurdle that non union workers don't have to deal with.


So are you a member or not?


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> But loose neutral can do what ever he wants :whistling2:
> 
> You and I both know that travelers are never welcome


No, i follow the system. If i need work and it's available I sign the book. Pretty simple.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What facts have you stated that support the idea that being a union member makes it easier to travel and get work?


Bob, we have a network in place that alerts us when they are looking for travelers. Sometimes it is an actual invite.

Nothing these days seem like a sure thing but, we all have a common interest in our trade and at the end of the day, I like my situation with the whole IBEW thing and I understand it's not for everybody.
It's like debating if a convertible is better than a hard top to me.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> But loose neutral can do what ever he wants :whistling2:
> 
> You and I both know that travelers are never welcome


Quite the contrary, we welcome travelers and do what we can here to help knowing it can be stressful being on the road.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Wow this thread went sideways.

@EBFD6 - buried in all this crap you answered about that hospital job. Thanks. Many of us on both sides of the discussion really do want to discuss things honestly and I appreciate your patient attempt to do so.

@haxwoper - welcome back and welcome back to my ignorelist. I appreciate your consistency and look forward to your next ban and incarnation.

As far as travelling as an IBEW member, it is easy. You go and sign in and when/if your name comes up, you go to work. If there is no work in the area, you don't work.

I have never traveled as a non union electrician but in reality I cannot see how to the two are vastly different - with the exception that we have a hiring hall that puts contractors and labor together and everything is already negotiated. Non union has to seek out contractors ( unless there is some sort of hiring site or organization in an area ) and negotiate wages.

And as insane as this sounds coming from me...can we just chill and be pleasant...it is the christmas season.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

eejack said:


> And as insane as this sounds coming from me...can we just chill and be pleasant...it is the christmas season.


Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, best to you and yours. :thumbsup:


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

jrannis said:


> Quite the contrary, we welcome travelers and do what we can here to help knowing it can be stressful being on the road.


The local myself and hax used to belong to only puts travelers to work after all its guys are working, since that never happens and guys are always on the bench, travelers don't work.


----------



## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> The local myself and hax used to belong to only puts travelers to work after all its guys are working, since that never happens and guys are always on the bench, travelers don't work.


Makes sense.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

robnj772 said:


> The local myself and hax used to belong to only puts travelers to work after all its guys are working, since that never happens and guys are always on the bench, travelers don't work.


I've worked out of that local a few times.


----------



## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Haxwoper said:


> That's not what we were talking about. If you did that you would be brought up on charges. You are talking outside the rules now.
> 
> So you concede that it's harder to travel as a union member than as a non-union member?


Hack, non union members first have to find the work, we go to a site and find out where jobs are available, a point your missing. Again, non union has to meet the same requirements as union. As far as taking the test, a union worker is more likely to pass because of the better training, not saying non union could not pass, but union more likely because of training (stated twice for each of your member names).


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Nice, so my visa is accepted.


No, you still have to take and pass the test. Union or non, same requirements. Your union credentials give you no special treatment.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Bob, we have a network in place that alerts us when they are looking for travelers. Sometimes it is an actual invite.


Nice spin, but that was not the topic was it?:laughing:

The topic was 'does your union affiliation make it easier to travel and find work the answer is no.

Even when 'invited' to come to mass the union affiliation does not allow the traveler to work. They will be treated exactly like a non-union member.

Subject to work experience approval and testing.

You seem to have trouble understanding some basic stuff here.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Nice, so my visa is accepted.


You need to read the posts before responding to them. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

robnj772 said:


> The local myself and hax used to belong to only puts travelers to work after all its guys are working, since that never happens and guys are always on the bench, travelers don't work.


That fact is not relevant to the conversation per eejack. :laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> I think they used to say Boston was a very tight place to get into. Are local licenses something in recent history?


We have had statewide licensing for a very long time, I don't know when it was established.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jrannis said:


> Quite the contrary, we welcome travelers and do what we can here to help knowing it can be stressful being on the road.


John, that sounds like a line of crap.

If your hall has local men on the bench do they really welcome travelers and put them to work ahead of the local workers?


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

BBQ said:


> John, that sounds like a line of crap.
> 
> If your hall has local men on the bench do they really welcome travelers and put them to work ahead of the local workers?


This entire thread is a line of crap


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You need to read the posts before responding to them. :laughing:


You nedd to stop twisting whatever facts to fit your nonsense.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> No, you still have to take and pass the test. Union or non, same requirements. Your union credentials give you no special treatment.


Like i said, take whatever test is required and go to work. Simple as that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> John, that sounds like a line of crap.
> 
> If your hall has local men on the bench do they really welcome travelers and put them to work ahead of the local workers?


Again you don't know what your talking about. A local wouldn't put out travelers with men on book 1.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like i said, take whatever test is required and go to work. Simple as that.


Right, the same as the non-union guys. Your union credentials give you no benefit over the non-union guys. 

I will repeat myself as many times as necessary until you understand this simple concept. No wonder you union guys need a 5 year apprenticeship to learn the same stuff we learned in 4.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Again you don't know what your talking about. A local wouldn't put out travelers with men on book 1.


You really have trouble understanding words, its OK I understand you stopped thinking for yourself a long time ago.:laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Right, the same as the non-union guys. Your union credentials give you no benefit over the non-union guys.
> 
> I will repeat myself as many times as necessary until you understand this simple concept. No wonder you union guys need a 5 year apprenticeship to learn the same stuff we learned in 4.


What do you have snow stuffed in your head. Yeah I get the job and the money follows. Nice and easy. Yeah we have a five year, cause we want to be the best. If your apprenticeship is so good why do most of the organized guys have to go back to school. Ka-pow.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You really have trouble understanding words, its OK I understand you stopped thinking for yourself a long time ago.:laughing:


I'm not the one talking out my ass. It's you as usual, having trouble understanding that it is not you that knows everything.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> What do you have snow stuffed in your head. Yeah I get the job and the money follows. Nice and easy. Yeah we have a five year, cause we want to be the best. If your apprenticeship is so good why do most of the organized guys have to go back to school. Ka-pow.


If your 'visa' and training is so good why does the state even test you?

Ka-pow. :laughing:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> If your 'visa' and training is so good why does the state even test you?
> 
> Ka-pow. :laughing:


We set up the state laws to keep critters like you out.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Ka pow ow.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> We set up the state laws to keep critters like you out.


It won't work, I will just take the test and pass it. :thumbsup:


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Loose Neutral said:


> What do you have snow stuffed in your head. Yeah I get the job and the money follows. Nice and easy. Yeah we have a five year, cause we want to be the best. If your apprenticeship is so good why do most of the organized guys have to go back to school. Ka-pow.


I know quite a few guys that have organized in and none of them have had to go back to school.

Tell me if the union is so great why are they continuing to lose market share? It's because they aren't better, actually non union does it faster, better, and cheaper. But, keep telling your stories. Maybe someday you'll find someone to believe them.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> I know quite a few guys that have organized in and none of them have had to go back to school.
> 
> Tell me if the union is so great why are they continuing to lose market share? It's because they aren't better, actually non union does it faster, better, and cheaper. But, keep telling your stories. Maybe someday you'll find someone to believe them.


Cheaper no doubt, better doubtful. Why are we losing market share? Money simple as that.


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It won't work, I will just take the test and pass it. :thumbsup:


Just like i would do in your state. Simple as that. Ka-pow-pow.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Just like i would do in your state. Simple as that. Ka-pow-pow.


Now you are getting it, Union or non-union the state rules are the same.

Of course you are also saddled with the local unions rules while I am a free agent.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I'd like any of these union guys who claim they can work anywhere to come up to New England and see how easy it is for them to work here without a state license in hand. :whistling2:


----------



## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Now you are getting it, Union or non-union the state rules are the same.
> 
> Of course you are also saddled with the local unions rules while I am a free agent.


Not saddled up with any rules. You have work, i need work, show credentials and go to work very simple. I know it's extremely hard for you to understand, but it really is that easy.:thumbsup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Really? This same argument again? This just happened like 2 weeks ago. My God guys.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Really? This same argument again? This just happened like 2 weeks ago. My God guys.


. Nah , this argument occurs at least once a week , usually more though , lol ! It's like the movie " Groundhog Day " here anymore . The kicker is , nobody ever leaves these union / non union pissing contests , with a different view than when they went in ? So why bother ?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> So I deal with the union bullsh1t at work, I deal with it on the fire department. I'm up to my eyeballs with union bullsh1t. At least the fire unions don't allow it to carry into the job. When a fire happens all the area departments work together, union/volunteer/POC, it doesn't matter. We get the job done. The politics can wait.


I really wish that sentiment would follow suit EBFD

labor in America is on fire right now

they want to burn us all 

~CS~


----------



## Dobermann315 (Jul 26, 2013)

So much for avoiding a flame war. I was just trying to hear people's experience with RTW or non-RTW


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Dobermann315 said:


> So much for avoiding a flame war. I was just trying to hear people's experience with RTW or non-RTW


. A valiant effort for trying , but the two sides rarely see eye to eye , so this is when the carrying degrees of anger and resentment come into play , lol ! Opinions are like ass---es , everybody had one , lol ! If it were possible to have an adult union vs. non - union debate here , a few of us may walk away with something , other than " boy , those two groups hate each other ! " I've been on both sides of the fence and can honestly say , both have their good sides and bad sides . There is no perfect formula for any one person . Do what's best for you and don't let anyone else tell you , you can't !


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Life is to short for hate, or anything living in my head that don't pay rent

jmho


~CS~


----------



## pjmurph2002 (Sep 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> And the cost of living difference? Just curious.
> 
> F'ing cold ass wind
> Dumb ass mayor
> ...


 Speaking of dumb Mayors...



*Washington, D.C.* Crime rates (2010) Crime type Rate* Homicide: 21.9 Forcible rape: 30.6 Robbery: 650.5 Aggravated assault: 538.1 *Violent crime:* 1,241.1 Burglary: 702.0 Larceny-theft: 2,999.7 Motor vehicle theft: 808.3 Arson: 8.1 *Property crime:* 4,510.0 *Notes*
* Number of reported crimes per 100,000 population.

Population 632,000

*Chicago* Crime rates (2010) Crime type Rate* Homicide: 15.2 Forcible rape: N/A Robbery: 501.6 Aggravated assault: 485.5 *Violent crime:* N/A Burglary: 924.7 Larceny-theft: 2,638.4 Motor vehicle theft: 673.3 Arson: N/A *Property crime:* 4,236.4 *Notes*
* Number of reported crimes per 100,000 population.
The data collection methodology for the offense of forcible rape used by Chicago, Illinois, does not comply with national Uniform Crime Reporting Program guidelines.
*Source:* FBI 2010 UCR data

Population 2.7 million



*Source:* Metropolitan Police Department: City Annual Stats: 1993-2011


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dobermann315 said:


> So much for avoiding a flame war. I was just trying to hear people's experience with RTW or non-RTW


Even for a new member to not realize this issue is a flamer is a bit naive. :001_huh:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

brian john said:


> Even for a new member to not realize this issue is a flamer is a bit naive. :001_huh:


People were doing fine until someone involved nazis and death camps ( a post you thanked ).


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> People were doing fine until someone involved nazis and death camps ( a post you thanked ).


Actually, this thread was going pretty good until someone posted this ridiculous statement.


eejack said:


> A good tradesman can always earn a living, union or non union. The opportunities are greater in areas where there is no legislation to diminish worker rights, so if you have a choice, a non 'right to work' state will be better.
> 
> One of the advantages of going union is once you have your credentials in order you can travel outside of the 'right to work' areas to where the real money and benefits are.


Then we had to call him out on the obvious lies it contains and it all went downhill from there.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

EBFD6 said:


> Actually, this thread was going pretty good until someone posted this ridiculous statement.
> 
> 
> Then we had to call him out on the obvious lies it contains and it all went downhill from there.


Just a thought here for the OP.
If someone has a nice business and the workforce was unionized and everyone was happy, structure was in place, people took care of their problems and everyone was happy then, the government steps in and makes a law to disrupt this, would the business owner like this?
Now, instead of materials and profits being the variable, labor becomes the variable in the business. Competitors find illegal labor and greedy schmucks to work for dirt cheap doing the same job.
Owner is now squeezed in a third direction and is forced to slash wages and lay off his valuable workforce he has known his entire life and made money on, his entire career.
He cashes out and the new owner fires the staff, sells the plant for scrap metal and moves the operation to Communist China. 
Owner moves to Florida and becomes one of John's customers.
.
The illegals and schmucks head for red states where they can maintain their working poor status and receive food stamps and government housing because they hate to pay dues and are free from oppression.
Amen.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Just a thought here for the OP.
> If someone has a nice business and the workforce was unionized and everyone was happy, structure was in place, people took care of their problems and everyone was happy then, the government steps in and makes a law to disrupt this, would the business owner like this?
> Now, instead of materials and profits being the variable, labor becomes the variable in the business. Competitors find illegal labor and greedy schmucks to work for dirt cheap doing the same job.
> Owner is now squeezed in a third direction and is forced to slash wages and lay off his valuable workforce he has known his entire life and made money on, his entire career.
> ...


That law of unintended consequences extends itself beyond the machinations of union representation, it also encompasses globalism. 

Wishing for a level playing field AND thinking the so called free market is going to get us there is delusional social engineering foisted upon us by the elites who fund these sorts of writings

There's millions of $$$ pumped into labor bashing sorts right now, an investment the elites plan making good on

A free market , or globalism, is basically labor anarchy , were labor is competing with the lowest common labor denominator. 


Like it or not, government intervention in the form of protectants are necessary.

The fine balance is to not be _too _overbearing , lest the market be mired in bureaucracies allowing it no prosperity , while keeping the free traitors from degrading us into worthlessness.

Anecdotally, we've been witness to the entire unionization and deunionization of the once great Springfield Vt machine shops here. 

We've an economic microcosm fallen from our once prosperous growing community of jobs and opportunities due to the above macroeconomics. 

Those once proud union shops are all vacant, or storefronts for Chinese cha cha, and we are well on our way to being _'detroited'_ due to the bottom falling out of our manufacturing tax base , unemployment & welfare status's

Now i this appears as less an economic prescription for your locality, i would only suggest rising above the daily doldrums of U-nonU one upmanship and realize we are ALL being viewed and dealt with as _ants_ 

~CS~


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Actually, this thread was going pretty good until someone posted this ridiculous statement.
> 
> 
> Then we had to call him out on the obvious lies it contains and it all went downhill from there.


You know...I tried nice. You want to argue, I get it. It makes you happy. It gets your juices flowing.

You are hung up on your pathetic parochial test. Seriously. It is a sad little test that I have ignored when I worked up in new england ( late nineties toured through Boston, Providence and Manchester ) that if I could be bothered to take I would pass - as would any other journeyman. But I didn't need to take it and didn't even need to be concerned about it. It never came up. I was never asked about it. If I ever work there again, I will ignore it, again.

If you want to travel you have to put together a resume, seek out employers, interview, negotiate.

All I have to do is sign a book at any given local. I have a card that says I am a qualified journeyman, I earn $x and get y benefits and if your hall has work I am ready to go do it. It is that simple and straightforward. My entire resume is on one piece of cardstock and it is all I will ever need to be amongst the highest paid tradesman on any given job site.

So, what is so painful about that for you? What is your real issue? Is it you are not a member of the organization, or is it just a general ignorance or a purposeful belligerence?

The OP asked about 'right to work' states and you offered nothing in the way of answering him. All you have done is be unpleasant and unhelpful, so good for you. Mission accomplished. Another thread turned to crap by trolls.

Enjoy.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

No matter how much the union folk try to argue, the fact is that they are dead wrong on this one.

Pick a spot in the country, any spot. Point the the map.

I guarantee you that there is a 99.9% chance that spot either A) doesn't have a union or B) they have men on book 1, nevermind book 2.

That means that a union man can't travel, unless it's to the few places that may have an open book 2. And when I say "few", I truly mean it.

Non-union workers, on the other hand, can go to anywhere in the country and get a job. The non-union worker doesn't have to be paid up on dues, have the proper drug test taken at that local, have to abide by hundreds of extra pages of rules, and have to wait on a list that may never be empty (such as my local AND eejack's local).

So I maintain that it is immensely easier for a non-union worker to travel than a union member. There is absolutely no comparison.


----------



## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> You know...I tried nice. You want to argue, I get it. It makes you happy. It gets your juices flowing.
> 
> You are hung up on your pathetic parochial test. Seriously. It is a sad little test that I have ignored when I worked up in new england ( late nineties toured through Boston, Providence and Manchester ) that if I could be bothered to take I would pass - as would any other journeyman. But I didn't need to take it and didn't even need to be concerned about it. It never came up. I was never asked about it. If I ever work there again, I will ignore it, again.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is the IBEW puts men to work illegally without a license? Why am I not surprised? Such a fine upstanding organization. Here I thought we were discussing you being able to travel and work legally. I should have known better. Unions have never let a little thing like ethics or the law get in their way. If you aren't going to follow the law, then yes, you are correct. You can go anywhere in the country and show your IBEW credentials and they will completely ignore the law and put you to work illegally. Congratulations, the union corruption continues.

Also I agree, the tests aren't that hard. In fact they are way too easy. Some of the guys I know that have passed the test prove that point quite well. I never said the test was difficult, just that it was required to work legally.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> So what you're saying is the IBEW puts men to work illegally without a license? Why am I not surprised? Such a fine upstanding organization. That's good to know. I'm sure the Massachusetts Board of Electrical Examiners would love to hear about it.


. Not trying to stir the pot here , but most contractors ( union or non ) do not require you to be licensed to work for them . You work under the contractors license and need to have gone through at least a 4 year apprenticeship . A license is by no means a mark of how good an electrician one is , unfortunately . Some of the best electricians I've ever worked with or for , didn't have a contractors license , but sure as hell knew their stuff ! I'm neutral in this debate , but New Jersey does not require all electricians to be licensed . There was talk of a qualified journeyman certification that would be required , but I don't know what happened with that ? A contractors license trumps that anyway , but still isn't absolutely required to work for someone else .


----------



## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I know quite a few guys that have organized in and none of them have had to go back to school.
> 
> Tell me if the union is so great why are they continuing to lose market share? It's because they aren't better, actually non union does it faster, better, and cheaper. But, keep telling your stories. Maybe someday you'll find someone to believe them.


Sorry, but the ACTUAL data disagrees with you. I'm not talking about your opinion or he said she said, I'm saying go by what is actually found in THIRD PARTY studies that have no skin in the game except for their reputation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw610qHGyM8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

drumnut08 said:


> . Not trying to stir the pot here , but most contractors ( union or non ) do not require you to be licensed to work for them . You work under the contractors license and need to have gone through at least a 4 year apprenticeship . A license is by no means a mark of how good an electrician one is , unfortunately . Some of the best electricians I've ever worked with or for , didn't have a contractors license , but sure as hell knew their stuff ! I'm neutral in this debate , but New Jersey does not require all electricians to be licensed . There was talk of a qualified journeyman certification that would be required , but I don't know what happened with that ? A contractors license trumps that anyway , but still isn't absolutely required to work for someone else .


The journeyman license in NJ is on the books, but it's not enforced. Many other (if not most other) states have requirements for journeyman (or even apprentice) licensing. 

Being an IBEW member doesn't help with any of these state or municipal licensing requirements. An IBEW member has to go and obtain that license just like a non-union member. I'm sure you've heard of all the IBEW members going to CA to work, but having to get the license first.


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

drumnut08 said:


> . Not trying to stir the pot here , but most contractors ( union or non ) do not require you to be licensed to work for them . You work under the contractors license and need to have gone through at least a 4 year apprenticeship .


Mass, CT and RI all require a state issued j- mans license for each worker. The only exception to that is if you are an apprentice and then the state ratio requirements kick in. Maximum of one apprentice per j- man on the job.

The ratio is enforced by the states and is a huge issue when j-men call out.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> I have never, and will never apply for IBEW union membership. I will make minimum wage flipping burgers at Micky D's first.


:thumbsup:

At least that would be honorable and dignified.


----------



## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Haxwoper said:


> The journeyman license in NJ is on the books, but it's not enforced. Many other (if not most other) states have requirements for journeyman (or even apprentice) licensing. Being an IBEW member doesn't help with any of these state or municipal licensing requirements. An IBEW member has to go and obtain that license just like a non-union member. I'm sure you've heard of all the IBEW members going to CA to work, but having to get the license first.


 yes , I actually know a few guys that went to California for work and were made to get licensed first . Jersey really needs to tighten the reigns on this I think ?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Haxwoper said:


> The journeyman license in NJ is on the books, but it's not enforced.


Sorry, but it does not exist. There is a qualified journeyman electrician and electrical contractor's license and nothing else.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> Sorry, but it does not exist. There is a qualified journeyman electrician and electrical contractor's license and nothing else.


Oh I am SOOOOOO sorry that I said a journeyman "license" instead of "Certificate of Registration".


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> So what you're saying is the IBEW puts men to work illegally without a license?.


What I am saying is your contractors who hire folks don't care about licensing, or it is not really required. POCO's don't care, large infrastructure jobs don't care, solar jobs don't care. There are many projects that don't follow local laws. 

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you might understand a little something, but instead of paying attention, you just want to argue and defend your solitary point. If you _were_ paying attention you would have noticed that you were the first to sling insults and get all pissy about things.

Instead, you baw and play the sad trombone.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Haxwoper said:


> Oh I am SOOOOOO sorry that I said a journeyman "license" instead of "Certificate of Registration".


No, you are not. Intentionally misleading and deceptive. :laughing:

Plonk.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> No, you are not. Intentionally misleading and deceptive. :laughing:
> 
> Plonk.


No, accurate. Everyone calls it the journeyman license, even 164 members when they helped pushed the state to invoke it :thumbup:

What kind of petty child would argue it being called a journeyman license??

Speaking of liars like yourself, didn't you say you put me on Ignore :whistling2:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Haxwoper said:


> No, accurate. Everyone calls it the journeyman license, even 164 members when they helped pushed the state to invoke it :thumbup:
> 
> What kind of petty child would argue it being called a journeyman license??
> 
> Speaking of liars like yourself, didn't you say you put me on Ignore :whistling2:


No one calls it a license. Most anyone who actually even knows it exists call it a money grab - send in money, get a journeyman sticker from the state. Completely useless. I clicked view post because drumnut08 quoted your putrescence and I was bored enough to feed a troll. You are too easy. At least EFFD6 puts some effort and passion into his posts.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> No one calls it a license. Most anyone who actually even knows it exists call it a money grab - send in money, get a journeyman sticker from the state. Completely useless. I clicked view post because drumnut08 quoted your putrescence and I was bored enough to feed a troll. You are too easy. At least EFFD6 puts some effort and passion into his posts.


Everyone calls it a journeyman license.

It was pushed for by the IBEW in NJ because they were going to have all journeyman signup for it and apprentices get it at the end of their apprenticeship and it was supposed to be used as another way to make union labor look better, since non-union electrician most likely wouldn't have it like every union guy would.

It never went anywhere because the state never enforced it.

But instead of knowing the facts of the situation, you'd rather argue the nomenclature that it's a certification and not a license :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Here we have a problem, eejack is talking specifically about Massachusetts and he lives in NJ, while I have been in Massachessetts all my life and have been in the trade since age 17, I am now 49.



eejack said:


> What I am saying is your contractors who hire folks don't care about licensing,


That maybe true for some Massachusetts contractors but far from all. 



> or it is not really required..


It is required, not even a doubt. The union makes sure of it. :laughing:



> POCO's don't care, .


That is true, there is some power company work that the state j- man license is not required. 



> large infrastructure jobs don't care,


Sorry, unless it is specifically for a utility, for a narrow scope of work, a state license is required for something as simple as dropping PVC in a trench.




> solar jobs don't care.


Wrong again, solar jobs in mass are under close scrutiny about licensing and ratios. I know this is a fact as we have likely have installed more watts of solar in Mass than any other contractor.

IBEW 103 was a leader in the fight to make sure electrical licensing was required for solar work. 




> There are many projects that don't follow local laws.


Sorry, not here in Mass.



> If you actually knew what you were talking about, you might understand a little something, but instead of paying attention, you just want to argue and defend your solitary point.


Says the man from NJ trying to tell a Mass tradesmen how things work in Mass. to defend the falsehoods he has been posting. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

BBQ said:


> IBEW 103 was a leader in the fight to make sure electrical licensing was required for solar work.


Great point, the unions in Mass. and RI are among the loudest voices for licensing laws and enforcement. But no doubt they turn a blind eye to their unlicensed "brothers" from other states.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

MTW said:


> Great point, the unions in Mass. and RI are among the loudest voices for licensing laws and enforcement.


Yup, just like I said above with the NJ Journeyman license.

But eejack doesn't even know about his own state's licensing, which is why it's laughable that he talks about licensing in other states :laughing:


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Here we have a problem, eejack is talking specifically about Massachusetts and he lives in NJ, while I have been in Massachessetts all my life and have been in the trade since age 17, I am now 49.


So having been in the trades a bit longer and actually have traveled and worked...

Worked in Boston ( bridge work, switchyard ), Providence ( aircraft plant line ) and Manchester ( switchyard ) and in the late 90s. I might have gotten a license in Boston, long time ago so who knows. 

But if it makes you happy - no one works in Mass without a license.


----------



## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Haxwoper said:


> But instead of knowing the facts of the situation, you'd rather argue the nomenclature that it's a certification and not a license :laughing::laughing::laughing:


http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/electric/journeyman.pdf

Application for a Certificate of Registration to Practice as a Qualified Journeyman Electrician

It is not even a certification, it is a registration. :thumbup:

But keep rubbing it, maybe your dreams will come true.


----------



## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/electric/journeyman.pdf
> 
> Application for a Certificate of Registration to Practice as a Qualified Journeyman Electrician
> 
> ...


You've proven my point time and time again.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

eeejack, how does it feel getting your ass handed to you time and time again?


----------



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> So having been in the trades a bit longer and actually have traveled and worked...
> 
> Worked in Boston ( bridge work, switchyard ), Providence ( aircraft plant line ) and Manchester ( switchyard ) and in the late 90s. I might have gotten a license in Boston, long time ago so who knows.
> .


Impressive, so first you point out how you worked in MA, but then go onto say you might have gotten a license in MA. 

Would you have gotten a license in MA if it was not required?



> But if it makes you happy - no one works in Mass without a license


I have been honest and I have never said what you are trying to make it look like I said.

Go back to my post and I pointed out times where a state issued license is not required.


Why can't you just admit that being a union member does not let you walk into any state and start working?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> eeejack, how does it feel getting your ass handed to you time and time again?


He must enjoy it.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

BBQ said:


> Why can't you just admit that being a union member does not let you walk into any state and start working?


The first thing the locals will ask travellers here is "Do you have a license?" How do I know that? Because they post "Must have state license" on the jobs board. :thumbup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Impressive, so first you point out how you worked in MA, but then go onto say you might have gotten a license in MA.
> 
> Would you have gotten a license in MA if it was not required?


If I got one, and like I said, it was a long while ago so I don't remember, it was unmemorable. At the time I was just touring new england, signing books and working. I probably did some other short calls up there as well.

But that is my point, I wandered around, signing books and went to work. OMG license! no. So even if now all these places are actually enforcing licenses on worker bees I still have hiring halls to go to find work and negotiate wages and benefits.

OMG license! comes into play for anyone traveling for work in those areas so the non union worker needs to get the license ( carry proof of experience ), find an employer, interview and negotiate wages. I need to get the license ( local will help with this ), sign the book, go to work if available.

But stay hung up on it - like I said to the non union union fireman - it is good to defend 'your work', we all need to be better at that to keep wages high and conditions good.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Impressive, so first you point out how you worked in MA, but then go onto say you might have gotten a license in MA.
> 
> Would you have gotten a license in MA if it was not required?
> 
> ...


I think what is going on here is that quite a bit of IBEW travelers work on power plants and jobs that do not fall under local or state jurisdiction. It's kinda old school to think your yellow ticket trumps local licensing laws but, usually the local exam is very easy and very incidental to traveling and working.
Fact is, guys I know that have worked out west take and pass all of the state exams with most of them having reciprocity with each other so it's more like paying a fee to each state to work there.
I wish they had this in Florida but, the Latin Builders, ABC and the IEC, control those that legislate in Florida and they like cheap immigrant labor.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

EBFD6 said:


> The days of 100 guys sitting in a room taking the written exam that is only offered a couple times a year are long gone. Except, for Rhode Island, they are still stuck in the stone age.


Michigan actually still does it this way too. 100+ folks in a room with pencils and scantron sheets. Exams are only scheduled 4 times a year in the lower peninsula, and once a year in the UP. 

The worst part though is then waiting 6-8 weeks for test results in the mail.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Michigan Master said:


> Michigan actually still does it this way too. 100+ folks in a room with pencils and scantron sheets. Exams are only scheduled 4 times a year in the lower peninsula, and once a year in the UP.
> 
> The worst part though is then waiting 6-8 weeks for test results in the mail.


Wash DC use to take 6 months to a year to get approved to take the test and they would through out your application for the dumbest reasons*. Then another 4-6 months to take a test given 2, or 3 maybe 4 times a year depending on their mood, then another 3-4 mounts for the results.

*You had to prove 8 years for a masters, I sent in 8 years worth of company letters but listed 10 years in the trade on the application with the names, dates and President of each firm. They said they needed proof of all 10 years.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> If I got one, and like I said, it was a long while ago so I don't remember, it was unmemorable. At the time I was just touring new england, signing books and working. I probably did some other short calls up there as well.
> 
> But that is my point, I wandered around, signing books and went to work. OMG license! no. So even if now all these places are actually enforcing licenses on worker bees I still have hiring halls to go to find work and negotiate wages and benefits.
> 
> ...


I am hung up on the fact you have twice in less than a month told people asking about the union that being a union member gives them an advantage to 'travel'. 

Please tell me what union members advantage is for traveling?

A union member does not have an advantage in regards to traveling, in fact they are more restricted in traveling than a non-union member.

Keep trying to lie about it and I will keep popping up. Simple.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't know but it seems to me that there are 2 points being debated and they are both correct.

Point: A non union guy goes to any location and competes with everyone for a job. If he is really good, he most likely will get employed. He does have to go out and find a company that needs help.

Point: A union guy goes to a location (notice I did not say any  ), and he does not have to look for the work because the union has it lined up. He actually can know where to go by the depth of the union book. So that does make it easier to travel because you go to where the help is needed where a non union guy does not have that resource and needs to do the research himself. The union workers is really restricted in that he cannot go anywhere and get work, he only can get work where the local electricians are already working and more help is needed.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I don't know but it seems to me that there are 2 points being debated and they are both correct.
> 
> Point: A non union guy goes to any location and competes with everyone for a job. If he is really good, he most likely will get employed. He does have to go out and find a company that needs help.
> 
> Point: A union guy goes to a location (notice I did not say any  ), and he does not have to look for the work because the union has it lined up. He actually can know where to go by the depth of the union book. So that does make it easier to travel because you go to where the help is needed where a non union guy does not have that resource and needs to do the research himself. The union workers is really restricted in that he cannot go anywhere and get work, he only can get work where the local electricians are already working and more help is needed.


I guess it depends on your definition of these words.

Right now there may be 3-4 places in the entire country that an IBEW member can go to and get work on Book 2. That means that a union person could travel to 3-4 places, that's it. No where else, he is stuck moving to that exact place, and within a month (or a week) book 2 might be full again, which means he has no possibility of work and he might as well move somewhere else. That person also has to follow all the same rules/laws as a non-union worker in addition to all the union rules. There is no "_he is union so he doesn't need the state/municipal license_" thing going on. 

A non-union person can travel to millions of places and get a job. Anywhere he wants. He will have to get the same state/municipal license that the union worker has to get. But he doesn't have to worry about having an active card, paid up dues, local drug testing, completed NJATC apprenticeship, nor does he have to follow a list/book system that will stop him from working in 99.999% of the country. He also doesn't have a contract saying that he has to work for signatory contractors, which is a very small percentage of electrical contractors country-wide.


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I work where I want, when I want.

The rules be damned.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mr hands said:


> I work where I want, when I want.
> 
> The rules be damned.


Of course, but you have never traveled more than 5 miles from your mommy's apron strings.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

hardworkingstiff said:


> I don't know but it seems to me that there are 2 points being debated and they are both correct.



Lou, I know you like to be the voice of reason and I can respect that,, but I really do not think you have been following along.

This started back on 11/2/13 in a thread asking about a national electrical license. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/why-isnt-there-national-journeymans-electrical-license-61474/


Here was the OPs main question



tsteverose said:


> So why if I spend 4 years in school, 8000 hours of on the job training, and dedicating myself to understanding the minimum standards of Electrical installation that the NEC lays out. *Why can't I work anytime, and anywhere in these United States w/o having to take additional test. *


To which eejack was the second to respond with this



eejack said:


> States' Rights.
> 
> ( seriously - that is the reason why lots of things are they way they are. )
> 
> However, I am a Journeyman anywhere the IBEW covers...so that is as close as you can get.



That is false, he is not a journeyman in areas that require a government issued journeyman license.

IBEW area or not, in many locations he will in fact have to take an additional test. Which is exactly what the OP wanted to avoid.

In that thread it was pointed out to him that his union JW status does not give him any advantage over the non-union worker as far as his ability to work as a journeyman.

Now fast forward to this thread, and he goes there again



eejack said:


> One of the advantages of going union is once you have your credentials in order you can travel outside of the 'right to work' areas to where the real money and benefits are.


Yes, a union member can travel outside the 'right to work' areas, but the chance of them landing a job is still dependent on the employment situation, just like a non-union man.

I have asked him time an again what advantage the IBEW JW status has for a traveler and all he can do is insult and ignore the question.

I see it like Hax, Hax laid it out concisely here



Haxwoper said:


> Pick a spot in the country, any spot. Point the the map.
> 
> I guarantee you that there is a 99.9% chance that spot either A) doesn't have a union or B) they have men on book 1, never mind book 2.
> 
> ...


Lou, or anyone, can you explain away Hax's points?

I don't think anyone can. I know eejack has not.


Now Loose Neutral did bring up something that I can see as advantage for the person who plans on traveling all the time.



Loose Neutral said:


> I'm talking 401, medical and retirement. I doubt non union will be getting that on the road, but good luck with it. When i hit NY, NJ, Pa locals it's like i didn't miss a beat. Works for me.


I can see that as advantage if you plan on being on the road and moving place to place.

For the guy that is just relocating that really does not make a difference.


So all I am looking for is for eejack to stop misleading potential union members with thought that a union JW staus gives them the keys to any place they go. I know eejack told me not to get hung up on these area licenses but that makes little sense if you need one to earn a living.

I would suggest he is too hung up on his NJ IBEW status and overstates it's importance around the country.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Well then maybe it can be summed up like this. Of course it's easier to do anything without strings attached. Happy Hax? Yet the system that the IBEW has in place regarding reciprocity of the funds makes it nice if you do have the unfortunate or fortunate luck of having to travel.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Well then maybe it can be summed up like this. Of course it's easier to do anything without strings attached. Happy Hax? Yet the system that the IBEW has in place regarding reciprocity of the funds makes it nice if you do have the unfortunate or fortunate luck of having to travel.


That's a very minor benefit when compared to the fact that you simply can't travel where you would want to, unless you actually want to go to the few places that might be calling from Book 2. 

It's mind boggling that someone would argue this.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> Yet the system that the IBEW has in place regarding reciprocity of the funds makes it nice if you do have the unfortunate or fortunate luck of having to travel.


You are speaking about ERTS, Electronic Reciprocal Transfer System. To comment on this system itself, it's not really all that great.

You see, if I were to go work down in Florida, they would send the money back to my home local. But since the rate and contributions are much lower, even after a solid year of work, I still wouldn't get health and welfare or a pension credit. I wouldn't have any medical insurance or pension at all. I might have a little bit of money put into the annuity, but only if that local have an annuity contribution. 

So let's just be clear about this system, it's not all that some people make it out to be.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

For the little time I have had to travel, mainly to my sister locals, it has worked seamlessly. Like I said earlier, If it came down to it and the local had nothing or any other locals had nothing and I gotta feed the babies, I could easily do as you do and go get any other electrical job out there.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

Loose Neutral said:


> For the little time I have had to travel, mainly to my sister locals, it has worked seamlessly.


 Yes, because their contracts are probably the same or close to your's. But when you go somewhere else with lower rates and contributions, you are losing out bigtime. You'd be better off getting benefits from that local instead of the money going back to your own local.



> Like I said earlier, If it came down to it and the local had nothing or any other locals had nothing and I gotta feed the babies, I could easily do as you do and go get any other electrical job out there.


That's fine, but that's breaking to rules and definitely proves that the union makes it harder to find work and travel.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Loose Neutral said:


> Like I said earlier, If it came down to it and the local had nothing or any other locals had nothing and I gotta feed the babies, I could easily do as you do and go get any other electrical job out there.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Haxwoper said:


> Yes, because their contracts are probably the same or close to your's. But when you go somewhere else with lower rates and contributions, you are losing out bigtime. You'd be better off getting benefits from that local instead of the money going back to your own local.
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine, but that's breaking to rules and definitely proves that the union makes it harder to find work and travel.


That's why you try to go where the pay is better of equivalent, but I don't think you can use another locals benefits. 2 or so years ago I was either waiting for a specific job or was waiting for a job, but I bounced over to your lovely state and signed the book. Maybe it took an hour or so of my time. Soon I got a call for a solar farm, worked a couple of weeks. Nice to be able to do that.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> So all I am looking for is for eejack to stop misleading potential union members with thought that a union JW staus gives them the keys to any place they go. I know eejack told me not to get hung up on these area licenses but that makes little sense if you need one to earn a living.
> 
> I would suggest he is too hung up on his NJ IBEW status and overstates it's importance around the country.


::sigh::

You just seem hung up on this so I will explain it again.

I can go anywhere there is an IBEW hiring hall and sign the book. If there is work available I can go do it *OMG LICENSE! and if a license is required that hall will help me obtain it. Barring parochial paperwork all I need to do is sign that book and if my name is called I go to work. All during this time, unless something has gone wrong, I have insurance and benefits and anything I 'earn' outside my home local counts toward earning my pension etc.

You ( being non union but assume equally qualified outside your home state as I am ) need to find the work ( want ads, craigslist, whatever, interview, negotiate ). You have to carry your resume, your credentials, letters of experience etc. You have to carry your own insurance. Whatever retirement is part of your negotiation will be up to you to deal with later.

So minus *OMG LICENSE! I can go anywhere and it is someone's job to find me work and negotiate and handle all the paperwork, and that is entirely your job.

Now, about this *OMG LICENSE! that you seemed some obsessed with...let us assume both of us are traveling to Michigan....never been there before. 

I get there and I have a support staff who will walk me through the process, the state already accepts my nationally accepted apprenticeship and my nationally recognized work history report. Everything I need is contained in one card. 

You get there and if you are lucky, you know someone who will help you.

Oh, wait, the work is for the Indiana Michigan Power company - license not required but...must be a signatory of a collective bargained agreement.

My IBEW status has nothing to do with NJ, it is an internationally recognized certification. It is accepted by every POCO in this country and is covered under a National Maintenance Agreement with all those POCOs to standardize any local nuances. It is accepted by government authorities ( I cannot say all because I don't know for certain but I have worked for Massachusetts Port Authority and Port Authority NJ & NY ). 

It would be really nice if you would stop trying to deceive folks into thinking that an IBEW JW card is just a piece of scrap paper. It is the single most commonly accepted journeyman electrician credential in this country. 

Again, I appreciate your defending 'your work', heck you are entitled to do so.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> It is the single most commonly accepted journeyman electrician credential in this country.


SUCH a load of crap.

The only people who honor an IBEW journeyman card is the IBEW or an IBEW signatory contractor. That card is meaningless to anyone else. It doesn't prove anything, certainly not hours or apprenticeship since I could have done a short non-union apprenticeship and been organized into the union.

Even with NJ being a union state, the NJ board of examiners of electrical contractors wouldn't take my IBEW journeymanship into consideration. They forced me to get papers signed and stamped from every contractor I worked for with the exact amount of hours worked. Being an IBEW journeyman did not help me get my license in any way.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Many states have no licensing laws, many that do, do not enforce these laws, during the boom years we had many travelers working out of our local in VA, MD. and DC, no one ever checked their license's. Right, wrong or indifferent it happened.

Not sure which states require license, and which states enforce those licenses, in addition no federal Davis Bacon jobs I know of enforce local license laws, lastly large projects like power houses do not seem to enforce licensing laws.

According to the DOL about 30% of electricians are union, seems high?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

We'l all have grand laugh at this when the gub'mit puts ID chips in our gourds....:jester::whistling2::thumbup::no::laughing:~CS~


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

If you join up, you pretty much get locked into one area.

If you want to work steady, you are pretty much at the mercy of the contractor you were hired by.

If you want to be your own man, you can expect to do alot of driving. The locals with good share have one or two spots with a motherload of work, and that's it. If you don't live near a hot spot, you're going to be sitting at home alot, sitting in the car alot, or sitting on your boss's lap alot.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> You just seem hung up on this so I will explain it again.


And you seem just as hung up on your IBEW status. :laughing:



> I can go anywhere there is an IBEW hiring hall and sign the book. If there is work available I can go do it *OMG LICENSE! and if a license is required that hall will help me obtain it.


I can go anywhere anyone is hiring. You cannot.

If I need a license I too can get it.



> You ( being non union but assume equally qualified outside your home state as I am ) need to find the work ( want ads, craigslist, whatever, interview, negotiate ). You have to carry your resume, your credentials, letters of experience etc. You have to carry your own insurance. Whatever retirement is part of your negotiation will be up to you to deal with later.


You, being union and can only work where there is a union presence and where the local hall is putting travelers to work.

How many locals are presently putting travelers to work?




> So minus *OMG LICENSE! I can go anywhere and it is someone's job to find me work and negotiate and handle all the paperwork, and that is entirely your job.


No, you cannot go anywhere, assuming you want to stay union to keep those bennies you cannot go anywhere, you can only go where there is union contractors and you, like me will only work if there are openings.

You are stuck with waiting your turn, while I can jump to the front of the line if I appear better then those around me.




> Now, about this *OMG LICENSE! that you seemed some obsessed with...let us assume both of us are traveling to Michigan....never been there before.
> 
> I get there and I have a support staff who will walk me through the process, the state already accepts my nationally accepted apprenticeship and my nationally recognized work history report. Everything I need is contained in one card.


Assuming the state takes that one card, many will not.

Regardless I too can apply for a license.



> You get there and if you are lucky, you know someone who will help you.


I am a big boy, I can get my own license without help. :laughing:




> Oh, wait, the work is for the Indiana Michigan Power company - license not required but...must be a signatory of a collective bargained agreement.


That is great, I already agreed with you that some utility work does not require a license.:thumbsup:



> > My IBEW status has nothing to do with NJ, it is an internationally recognized certification. It is accepted by every POCO in this country and is covered under a National Maintenance Agreement with all those POCOs to standardize any local nuances. It is accepted by government authorities ( I cannot say all because I don't know for certain but I have worked for Massachusetts Port Authority and Port Authority NJ & NY ).
> 
> 
> Now it has grown to 'International recognition. :laughing:
> ...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> ..let us assume both of us are traveling to Michigan....never been there before.
> 
> I get there and I have a support staff who will walk me through the process, the state already accepts my nationally accepted apprenticeship and my nationally recognized work history report. Everything I need is contained in one card.


Bzzz, sorry sir, that is an incorrect answer and you will not be eligible for the bonus round.

Michigan will not accept that nationally recognized work history report of yours.

But like me, you can provide the notarized, original documentation that must be on your past employers’ letterhead stationery.




> Provide original notarized documentation from present or former employers to the effect that the applicant has not less than 8,000
> hours of practical experience obtained over a period of not less than 4 years related to electrical construction or electrical maintenance
> of buildings under direct supervision of a person licensed pursuant to the act. Documentation must include the beginning (month, day,
> year) to ending (month, day, year) dates of employment. The 8,000 hours of practical work experience over 4 years must be attained
> ...


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_electrical_journeyman_exam_app_261329_7.pdf




> Examination Eligibility of Applicants From Other States or Countries
> A person who is licensed as a journeyman electrician in another state or country may qualify for examination upon determination by the
> board that the license was obtained by the person through substantially the same or equal requirements as those of the state of Michigan
> in accordance with the provisions of section 3a of the act.




Stupid states and there rules, don't they know eejack is a union member!!!!! :laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Bzzz, sorry sir, that is an incorrect answer and you will not be eligible for the bonus round.
> 
> Michigan will not accept that nationally recognized work history report of yours.
> 
> ...


I like this.

Actually, my work history report is a signed notarized document from my hall, and can be created, verified and notarized by any hall or the international office. Michigan accepts it no problem.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> I can go anywhere anyone is hiring. You cannot.


Actually, no reason why I cannot. There is nothing that restricts me from finding work anywhere as long as I don't compete or circumvent the local hiring hall.



BBQ said:


> If I need a license I too can get it.


Absolutely - and you would probably pass the tests without much review as you use them



BBQ said:


> You, being union and can only work where there is a union presence and where the local hall is putting travelers to work.
> 
> How many locals are presently putting travelers to work?


Partially true, but assuming I don't want to work non union - right now about 10% - a greater number if you count specialists. I can always go to Texas ( open calls due to crappy rates ) or North Dakota. There is a lot of work in upstate NY ( thanks Elmira and Albany ) if I don't want to go too far. NJ is looking better and better - Atlantic City employed a good chunk of guys up until recently and our sister local 456 is putting out book 2 with consistency.




BBQ said:


> No, you cannot go anywhere, assuming you want to stay union to keep those bennies you cannot go anywhere, you can only go where there is union contractors and you, like me will only work if there are openings.
> 
> You are stuck with waiting your turn, while I can jump to the front of the line if I appear better then those around me.


You are jumping in front of what line? The line for low paying transient electricians with no bennies? No offense but I don't stand on that line so jump away.



BBQ said:


> Assuming the state takes that one card, many will not.


No assumption required - it is nationally accepted.



BBQ said:


> Now it has grown to 'International recognition. :laughing:


Hey, if we are gonna say that Canada is not really a nation...



BBQ said:


> That is all very well, but you still limited to working where the IBEW is working and where the IBEW has spots to fill.
> 
> In the mean time I can work anywhere there are non-union contractors working. In almost all areas that is a much larger number of choices.
> 
> ...


Actually, yes if I chose to not work non union you have more choices - there are obviously less union jobs than non union jobs. There are also way many more non union electricians.

The real world though, it pretty much proves my point. There are many many traveling IBEW members - you don't really hear about or know a lot of traveling non union electricians...do you?

I have not spent decades traveling, just a couple of years here and there - and certainly in recent times I have stayed closer to home - but it takes a modicum of effort to find where in the country the work is and get there.

Ask yourself honestly - if work dried up by you and you had to go somewhere - how sure are you of making a paycheck in the first couple of weeks? months?


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> I like this.
> 
> Actually, my work history report is a signed notarized document from my hall, and can be created, verified and notarized by any hall or the international office. Michigan accepts it no problem.


New Jersey doesn't accept it. Your own state. You don't know that because you don't have the master or journeyman license from the state. 

They require the forms signed and stamped by the contractor. The IBEW is meaningless to them.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I like this.
> 
> Actually, my work history report is a signed notarized document from my hall, and can be created, verified and notarized by any hall or the international office. Michigan accepts it no problem.


Actully per their own documents say they must be on your past employers letter head and motirized. 

But you ability to ignore facts is outstanding. :laughing:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Actully per their own documents say they must be on your past employers letter head and motirized.
> 
> But you ability to ignore facts is outstanding. :laughing:


Yep, I understand what you are saying, but Michigan accepts it, no problem.

The state wants a verifiable work history, in a union members case, the union is the verifying agent. Heck, when I got my NJ EC license, all I had to provide was my local work history and pass a test.

But, if you want to follow the letter of the michigan law, you cannot get a license there either. You need 8000 hours working for someone qualified pursuant to the act - ie a michigan master electrician.

So, how do you want that buttered?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

It seems to me you are both a little right and a little wrong. neither wants to accept that there is no 100% verification of licenses when traveling nor is there 100% ability to travel.

Some places you can, some you can't.:thumbsup:


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

And just because this proves that you can get a license in Michigan...( and the substantial reason why my JW card and work history is accepted ). These states are not as rigid as they appear, they are reasonable...



> A person who is licensed as a journeyman electrician in another state or country may qualify for examination upon determination by the
> board that the license was obtained by the person through substantially the same or equal requirements as those of the state of Michigan
> in accordance with the provisions of section 3a of the act.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

BBQ said:


> Actully per their own documents say they must be on your past employers letter head and motirized.
> 
> But you ability to ignore facts is outstanding. :laughing:


This is correct..and also they only do testing so often.. let alone the fact that it takes a while to even hear back from the state once they have all your documentation to receive the letter stating you are elligable (or not) to sit for the licensing exam.
You better have some site seeing planned out or some side jobs lined up..oh wait...not to mention after you pass the test it takes a bit to get the license... after you get your results and send them $...oh and I think 58 has like 900 on book one may be wrong.


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## Next72969 (Dec 9, 2012)

Dobermann315 said:


> Also, not trying to start a flame war here of union vs. non-union and not saying one is better...just trying to understand how it affects you as an electrician. Thanks


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> And just because this proves that you can get a license in Michigan...( and the substantial reason why my JW card and work history is accepted ). These states are not as rigid as they appear, they are reasonable...


You're wrong yet again

This is what you quoted:

"_A person who is licensed as a journeyman electrician in another state or country may qualify for examination_..."

Your union journeyman card was NOT issued to you by the state. The IBEW journeyman card is meaningless, you yourself know that plenty of "friends" of the BA's have been handed a union card without going thru the apprenticeship. Plenty of men have been organized without going thru an apprenticeship. The IBEW card is not proof of anything.


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## Voltron (Sep 14, 2012)

eejack said:


> Yep, I understand what you are saying, but Michigan accepts it, no problem.
> 
> The state wants a verifiable work history, in a union members case, the union is the verifying agent. Heck, when I got my NJ EC license, all I had to provide was my local work history and pass a test.
> 
> ...


I did know about the hours under MI master for us, but wasn't sure if you could transfer your documents and hours or not from other areas


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

The union is all about throttling the supply of skilled labor in a geographical area. 

Men have to be kept in, other men have to be kept out. There is no mobility, unless you like living on a flat spot in an RV.

I think the dispatch is really effed up in three ways:

1. Once a dirtbag is in the system, they can keep showing up over and over for free money.

2. Good men have their mobility restricted in lean times, and have to suffer the scorn of management.

3. Men are organized in whose experience in conduit bending is limited to 3/4 emt factory bends. They end up way overpaid for what they bring to the table.

Who can list more ways? Shall I go on? And yet, I am confident I am going to make more money in the IBEW and do more gravy work. I aint no business man, I know my limitations. I install, end of story.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

4SQUARE said:


> I did know about the hours under MI master for us, but wasn't sure if you could transfer your documents and hours or not from other areas


According to that document, you can qualify for the test with local hours or a passed journeysman license from another area with 'similiar requirements'. That would mean BBQ's license for example most probably qualifies.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> According to that document, you can qualify for the test with local hours or a passed journeysman license from another area with 'similiar requirements'. That would mean BBQ's license for example most probably qualifies.


Yes, as does a license you may have from the state of NJ.

But your IBEW credentials do not qualify you .... Unless the IBEW has become a state.


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## Haxwoper (Dec 13, 2013)

eejack said:


> According to that document, you can qualify for the test with local hours or a passed *journeysman license* from another area with 'similiar requirements'. That would mean BBQ's license for example most probably qualifies.


But I thought it wasn't a journeyman's license, it's a certification, no, it's a registration


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Here's the RTW state mentality: Somebody who knows wtf is going on needs to layout and qc the job. Boneheads can do the work.

Blue states: The guy with his hand on the tool needs know what he's doing, and we let in new bozos by discrete amounts.

Which is better? I know one leads to higher quality and the other is higher quantity. Shouldnt we be trying to get more money for the same amount of work???


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

eejack said:


> Actually, my work history report is a signed notarized document from my hall, and can be created, verified and notarized by any hall or the international office. Michigan accepts it no problem.


Out of state applicants must provide _all_ of the following documentation (see exam application info).

*a.)* Copies of the electrical contractor’s license for your employer with your verification letters. Verification letters must be on company letterhead, signed by the qualified master electrician and notarized. The letter must contain your starting and end dates of employment, number of hours worked (excluding OT) and a brief description of your experience/duties.

*b.)* If you or your employer has an out-of-state license, a copy of the license with a copy of your driver’s license must _also_ be provided.

*c.)* A copy of the licensing requirements for the licensing authority (city, township, county or state) where the license was issued must also be provided.

The Electrical Administrative Board will then determine if the applicant has met Michigan's requirements. Out of state guys often wind up getting denied the fist time and need to appeal the board decision due to not providing all of the required documentation. There is not currently an EAB packet posted (check here after the next meeting to read). However, I did find something via Google search that shows what this typically looks like. The link below is 2 union guys from Ohio appealing the board decision and almost 70 pages of paperwork... 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/dleg_bcc_electrical_board_packet_052611_part3_353126_7.pdf


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Michigan Master said:


> The link below is 2 union guys from Ohio appealing the board decision and almost 70 pages of paperwork...
> 
> http://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/dleg_bcc_electrical_board_packet_052611_part3_353126_7.pdf


But eejack has an internationally recognized work history report from the IBEW, surely that allows him to bypass these requirements. :laughing::laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> I like this.
> 
> Actually, my work history report is a signed notarized document from my hall, and can be created, verified and notarized by any hall or the international office. Michigan accepts it no problem.





BBQ said:


> Actully per their own documents say they must be on your past employers letter head and notarized.





eejack said:


> Yep, I understand what you are saying, but Michigan accepts it, no problem.



You must have a different definition of 'no problem' than I do.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

Just test in NC: you get the entire southeast except Kentucky, plus add ohio. Eleven states, I think...plus the states that have no statewide licensing. :thumbsup:

EDIT: you still have to pay them. I don't think anyone automatically accepts anything without an application plus fees.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

BBQ said:


> But eejack has an internationally recognized work history report from the IBEW, surely that allows him to bypass these requirements. :laughing::laughing:


I think he probably just doesn't realize that the requirements are the same for both union and non-union because he's never had to actually do any of this for himself; the IBEW probably just has guys sign the application and they do everything else.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Michigan Master said:


> I think he probably just doesn't realize that the requirements are the same for both union and non-union because he's never had to actually do any of this for himself; the IBEW probably just has guys sign the application and they do everything else.


I know the requirements are the same and I know someone who is not me deals with it. Kind of what I have been saying.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Michigan Master said:


> Out of state applicants must provide _all_ of the following documentation (see exam application info).
> 
> *a.)* Copies of the electrical contractor’s license for your employer with your verification letters. Verification letters must be on company letterhead, signed by the qualified master electrician and notarized. The letter must contain your starting and end dates of employment, number of hours worked (excluding OT) and a brief description of your experience/duties.
> 
> ...



Comically my work history lists well over 100 contractors, from various states, none of which had masters on site, a handful had the EC license holder on site, some of which were unlicensed, quite a few out of business or bought out by larger companies, some of which were government agencies or authorities or POCOs and not even contractors. It would be impossible to do this paperwork - cannot be accomplished - yet I have never had my work history not be accepted.

Everyone knows these requirements don't work for union workers - we don't work the same way as non union. 2 week calls are commonplace, we do one day calls all the time (It would silly to expect a contractor who puts out a one day call for 25 men for something to provide a notarized letter to all those guys. Then what, amend the letter if I work for them again in a month? :laughing - I did over 20 in a year once. This year I have worked for seven. I suspect in order to not get buried in our paperwork, they just accept what the IBEW provides.

( no, I have not tried working in Michigan - a bit far for me and there really isn't any going on there ).


BTW - you said two union guys from Ohio - ABC is not the IBEW. The differences are staggering.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

More of the Coke Koch, Kock whatever Brothers antics...



Among all the myriad reports on the Wisconsin economy, few present as rosy a picture as the "Rich States, Poor States" study by a supply-side proponent who shot to fame during the Reagan years.
*Arthur Laffer*, the 73-year-old author of the famous "Laffer curve," concluded in his 128-page report that Wisconsin's economic outlook had jumped from 32nd in the country to 15th in the past year. In an interview this week, the conservative economist attributed the improvement to Gov. *Scott Walker's *legislation targeting unions.
"We find a very strong relationship between right to work and economic performance of states," Laffer said Monday. "Wisconsin did not do right to work, but they came so damn close it's literally right to work that you've got."
The annual report is published and distributed by the *American Legislative Exchange Council*, a corporate-backed group that drafts model legislation for state lawmakers. But it wasn't clear who exactly was footing the bill.
Now we know.
Records obtained and published by *The Guardian*, a left-wing British newspaper, show ALEC hit up two foundations for support for "Rich States, Poor States" this year:
The *Searle Freedom Trust*, a Washington, D.C.-based foundation that spends million of dollars annually promoting free-market ideas, and the *Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation*, which is controlled and run by the billionaire industrialists *Charles* and *David Koch*.
The internal ALEC documents suggest Searle had authorized $175,000 earlier this year for the annual report, while Claude Lambe made a $150,000 grant.
A spreadsheet also shows grant requests for $135,000 to Searle and $200,000 to Claude Lambe. Both requests are listed as pending in the records leaked to the British newspaper.
A spokeswoman for *Koch Companies Public Sector* disputed the leaked ALEC records, which she said she was unable to access.
"We can confirm that the Claude R. Lambe Foundation provided a grant of $150,000 to the Center for State Fiscal Reform that was paid out in November 2012," said *Melissa Cohlmia*, director of corporate communications. "The grant was for general operating support and was not specific to the 'Rich States, Poor States' study."
Officials with the Searle foundation did not return calls or emails.
*Lisa Graves*, the executive director of the liberal *Center for Media and Democracy*, accused the Koch spokeswoman of splitting hairs.
Graves said the Center for State Fiscal Reform is a division of ALEC that lists the Laffer study as its signature publication. Staffers at the center, she added, are credited on the acknowledgments page of the Laffer report.
"Despite the effort to distance itself, it is quite clear that Koch-controlled funds help directly underwrite ALEC's 'Rich States, Poor States' report with its discredited rankings of state economic policies," said Graves, whose group has been highly critical of ALEC and the Koch brothers.
Graves' organization is funded by a handful of mainstream and left-leaning groups, such as the *Rockefeller Family Foundation *and the *Schumann Center for Media and Democracy*, headed by liberal commentator *Bill Moyers*. The center has also received $520,000 from an anonymous donor.
The Laffer report does receive widespread media coverage, especially in states faring well under Laffer's criteria.
For instance, the *Clarion-Ledger *in Jackson, Miss., published a report in May with the headline: "Mississippi's economic outlook ranks in top 10 nationally, annual report says." The *Deseret Morning News *in Salt Lake City went with a story in May saying, "Utah's economic advantage continues."
In Wisconsin, the conservative *MacIver Institute* wrote, "According to the report, Wisconsin's economic outlook has improved so much because of Governor Scott Walker's fiscal policies."
While its economic outlook significantly improved, the state didn't score as well in the category of economic performance in the most recent Laffer report. Wisconsin finished 41st, up one slot from 2012.
Laffer said in the interview that he expects that to change. Walker's move to severely limit collective bargaining for most public workers, Laffer said, will almost certainly mean improved economic performance in the next four or five years.
Among other things, he called on Walker to lower the state income tax rate for the wealthiest individuals and to slash the corporate tax rate in upcoming legislative sessions.
"This is not rocket surgery," he said, mixing metaphors.
Asked about the two conservative foundations funding his study, Laffer said they have no impact on what he does. The annual report — which is co-authored with Wall Street Journal editorial writer *Stephen Moore* and *Jonathan Williams*, director of tax and fiscal policy at ALEC — is mostly his work, Laffer said
Federal filings show Searle Freedom Trust — founded by *Daniel Searle*, former CEO of *G.D. Searle & Co*., maker of *NutraSweet* — has been underwriting the annual Laffer report since it was first released in 2008. Daniel Searle, who died in 2007, was once a partial owner of the *Milwaukee Braves*. Set up by the Kochs in the 1980s after the death of a family friend, the Claude Lambe fund has been giving to ALEC since 2009.
"They fund my research. They don't do my research. They don't tell me what to do," Laffer said. "I do my work on my own. If they don't want to fund me, that's fine with me. I like being funded, but this is not what I do for a living."
His annual report has come under sharp criticism from the left.
*Greg LeRoy*, executive director of *Good Jobs First* in Washington, D.C., was one of three authors of a study criticizing Laffer's annual report.
LeRoy said it's interesting that the conservative economist places so much emphasis on right-to-work laws, which make it illegal to force workers to pay union dues, because they don't affect large swaths of the private sector.
In addition, LeRoy said, Laffer's report evaluates and rewards states that are suppressing wages and moving their tax burden from the rich to the poor.
"This is all about regressivity," LeRoy said. He said Good Jobs gets about 6% of its income from unions, with the rest coming from private foundations.
Expect to see much more of Laffer in the coming year.
Laffer, who has advised a number of governors, said he is preparing to publish his magnum opus, an exhaustive look at how states are performing. He said the book, which doesn't yet have a title, should land on the shelves before the 2014 election.
Dubbed the "GOP tax man" by *Politico* this year, Laffer said he would be willing to stand up and defend Walker's economic agenda to anyone, even in an election year. He said he has chatted with the Wisconsin governor but nothing more. He has provided advice to governors in Kansas, Tennessee and Texas in recent years.
"I would love to do a debate with the other guy's economist," Laffer said, referring to Walker's Democratic opponent. "Any time."
_Contact Daniel Bice at (414) 224-2135 or [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter @DanielBice or on Facebook at fb.me/daniel.bice._


Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/he...nomy-b99161239z1-236425631.html#ixzz2ntKB0tR3 
Follow us: @JournalSentinel on Twitter
​


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Laffer curve

interesting how ll the r-wing foundations love this guy


~CS~


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Laffer curve
> 
> interesting how ll the r-wing foundations love this guy
> 
> ...


 Well of course, its the Republican way.

Pay the little guy less, make sure the rich get even more.

Its why I just cannot believe anyone making less then 400K a year is dumb enough to vote Republican.

The best thing on TV is watching some guy living in a mobile home, driving a 8 year old truck, talking about how he hates Democrats.:no:


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## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

lefleuron said:


> Its why I just cannot believe anyone making less then 400K a year is dumb enough to vote Republican.
> 
> The best thing on TV is watching some guy living in a mobile home, driving a 8 year old truck, talking about how he hates Democrats.:no:


I seen that often watching COPS. The drunk guy being dragged away in cuffs after beating his wife blames Obama all too often for the police state and decay of american society.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mr hands said:


> I seen that often watching COPS. The drunk guy being dragged away in cuffs after beating his wife blames Obama all too often for the police state and decay of american society.


Wanting a "Right to Work" State is kind of like wanting to go into court without a lawyer.


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## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

RIVETER said:


> Wanting a "Right to Work" State is kind of like wanting to go into court without a lawyer.


:jester:court, you say???:jester:

Not if bad guys get their way, business firms are trying to get more people to sign away their rights to jury trials in favor of "binding arbitration" and guess who picks the arbitrator?

There was a bank in the news not too long ago that was criticized because out of tens of thousands of disputes, every one of them -- every single one, was settled in favor of the bank.

Next thing you know there will be calls from the bad guys saying that the "job creators" actually deserve additional votes at the voting polls...

(bad guys aren't exclusive to any particular political party btw)


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

uconduit said:


> (bad guys aren't exclusive to any particular political party btw)


Amen! The sooner we all understand this the better.


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