# 14 AWG on a 20A Circuit



## Awseay (Aug 19, 2014)

I think the switch leg thing was.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

BSK3720 said:


> Doing resi service work, we've run into several cases of 14 AWG Romex on a 20A breaker.
> 1. Switch leg to fixture
> 2. 12 AWG home run and 14 box to box
> Some of these houses are not very old (10 years), but they were not inspected. Has this ever been legal?


Nope it never has been...


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

I remember seeing it done when nm 14 &12 were white. (Romex) at that the boss told us its not right and when 12 romex became yellow and 14 white those same guys got red tags everytime. I believe inspectors didnt realize it had been done when it was all white

no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

zen said:


> I remember seeing it done when nm 14 &12 were white. (Romex) at that the boss told us its not right and when 12 romex became yellow and 14 white those same guys got red tags everytime. I believe inspectors didnt realize it had been done when it was all white
> 
> no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


Exactly why, if I was an offshore manufacturer of NM, that I would make yellow jacketed #14. There is no standard that specifies the color of the jacket and the manufacturer is free to use any color he wants to.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

14 nm was often used as a switch leg for a 20 amp circuit however it is not compliant unless you install a 15 amp overcurrent protective device.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

210.24 Allows tap conductors of reduced size.

240.4 (D) (3) 14 AWG. 15 amperes. Pretty much stomps it out though

240.4 (E) Clarifies a little


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Exactly why, if I was an offshore manufacturer of NM, that I would make yellow jacketed #14. There is no standard that specifies the color of the jacket and the manufacturer is free to use any color he wants to.



Why not make it orange? :whistling2:


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Why not make it orange? :whistling2:


AllWires brand NM cables are all black jacketed.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 14 nm was often used as a switch leg for a 20 amp circuit however it is not compliant unless you install a 15 amp overcurrent protective device.


Last year the company I was working at still did this. #14/2 for switchlegs on 20 amp circuits. Pretty sure you can do that with mc or romex, as long as it's just the switchleg cable.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> Last year the company I was working at still did this. #14/2 for switchlegs on 20 amp circuits. Pretty sure you can do that with mc or romex, as long as it's just the switchleg cable.


Please cite the code section that says you can do that.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Why not make it orange? :whistling2:


#10 just looks bigger...probably get caught if they used orange.


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## Somewhere_401 (Apr 7, 2014)

480sparky said:


> Why not make it orange? :whistling2:


Most 8 gauge wire I see around here is orange.

It does make it interesting, white, blue, red, yellow... Looks pretty....

It does make for an easy identification of when people make mistakes.:blink:

I have seen blue 14/2 wire that is over 20 years old, long before AFCI was required...


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

NO, you can not do this. Just because it's a switch leg does not change the amprage drawn on it.


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## icemanjc (Dec 25, 2012)

Somewhere_401 said:


> Most 8 gauge wire I see around here is orange.
> 
> It does make it interesting, white, blue, red, yellow... Looks pretty....
> 
> ...


I actually saw that the other day. Didn't surprise me though. It was a church with every type of NM cable you can imagine, cloth, very crappy cloth, black, and of course white.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

FF301 said:


> NO, you can not do this. Just because it's a switch leg does not change the amprage drawn on it.


The amp draw is determined by the load. If you had one 60w fixture you would be fine technically.


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

No, CB protects the wire not the load so in the event of a fault or other wise ( switched outlet) then the recptcl could be overloaded.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

AllWIRES said:


> 210.24 Allows tap conductors of reduced size. 240.4 (D) (3) 14 AWG. 15 amperes. Pretty much stomps it out though 240.4 (E) Clarifies a little


....


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

dont remember exactly where i heard,learned this, but i believe the color of insulation is the indicator of what size the wire is, up to 10awg. also the color gives you some indication of the years it what made. such as white was 14 or 12. white is now 14, yellow is 12 orange is 10, grey is uf(no size designation) black is everything over 10, except color coded single wires. at least thats what i seearound here.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

Im gonna say that someone alot of them took the theory that if its ok to use a 15 amp "duplex "device on a 20 amp circuit then it must be ok to use 14 from the switch onward. Or they derated the hr s that were crammed in the ma at the panel.. im glad those days are over. Dumbest crap I ever had to do

no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Please cite the code section that says you can do that.


Let me be clear first that I'm not 100% sure on the interpretation here, but here's the code sections: 

210.19(4) ex. #2, table 210.24, 240.5(b)(2) all allowed smaller wire sizes on luminaries. The only discrepancy here is the code uses the term "fixture wires". Obviously it could be interpreted as switch legs, if your inspector allowed.

I asked this same question here a few months back, and these are the code sections that were provided for me. My original intention was for the fixture whip, but I was also curious about whether it was legal on not with the switchleg on romex & Mc jobs. I know the company I worked at last year did this on some jobs, and the inspectors allowed it.


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

Read 210.24 again. 
210.19,210.20 and 210.21 govern the application of table 210.24 for taps
210.19 (4)(c) individual outlets, other then recept outlets taps not over 18 inch long.


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

So yes you can tap off of 12 with 14 but no longer then 18 inches to connect the device
But you can not use 14 as part of the branch circuit.


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## FF301 (Jan 12, 2014)

MHElectric said:


> Let me be clear first that I'm not 100% sure on the interpretation here, but here's the code sections: 210.19(4) ex. #2, table 210.24, 240.5(b)(2) all allowed smaller wire sizes on luminaries. The only discrepancy here is the code uses the term "fixture wires". Obviously it could be interpreted as switch legs, if your inspector allowed. I asked this same question here a few months back, and these are the code sections that were provided for me. My original intention was for the fixture whip, but I was also curious about whether it was legal on not with the switchleg on romex & Mc jobs. I know the company I worked at last year did this on some jobs, and the inspectors allowed it.


Your switch leg is part of the branch circuit, fixture wire is inside the fixture.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> Let me be clear first that I'm not 100% sure on the interpretation here, but here's the code sections:
> 
> 210.19(4) ex. #2, table 210.24, 240.5(b)(2) all allowed smaller wire sizes on luminaries. The only discrepancy here is the code uses the term "fixture wires". Obviously it could be interpreted as switch legs, if your inspector allowed.
> 
> I asked this same question here a few months back, and these are the code sections that were provided for me. My original intention was for the fixture whip, but I was also curious about whether it was legal on not with the switchleg on romex & Mc jobs. I know the company I worked at last year did this on some jobs, and the inspectors allowed it.



Think of the fixtures that you install. Those are your tap conductors not the wire to the switch- switch leg or switch loop. 

In reality there will probably never be an issue using a smaller switch leg however it is not compliant as the 14 awg cannot be fused above 15 amps except in certain cases such as motors, etc-- and there the motors would need overload protection.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

AllWIRES said:


> The amp draw is determined by the load. If you had one 60w fixture you would be fine technically.


No its wire size in this case is determined by ocp device size.


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## AllWIRES (Apr 10, 2014)

:blink:
If you don't post the entire code section no one bothers to look it up. :no: Next time Ill bring my spoon. 

I know the rules on 14 AWG on a 20a because the code lays it out.

I also know that if you have 14 AWG as a switch leg for a small fixture or two on a 20a circuit you going to be okay in reality

404.14 allows you to use a snap switch at its rating for the load to be controlled, but that still doesnt mean you can use 14 AWG.

Its a violation, period.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> ...
> 210.19(4) ex. #2, table 210.24, 240.5(b)(2) all allowed smaller wire sizes on luminaries. The only discrepancy here is the code uses the term "fixture wires". Obviously it could be interpreted as switch legs, if your inspector allowed. ...


That permits the use of the specific types of wire shown in Article 402 to be used as taps to a fixture. If you are not using one of the wire types from Article 402, you can't do that. The overcurrent protection of the fixture wire is per the rules in 240.5.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

By now some wired a house with no tap rules and is awaiting a green tag 60% draw

no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

zen said:


> By now some wired a house with no tap rules and is awaiting a green tag 60% draw
> 
> no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


We do not theorize. We are quoting code. If they or you want to do it illegally then that is fine but be aware that it is not compliant


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

No disrespect mr dennis . I meant in the time this thread has ran someone wired a house code compliant and is awaiting a draw. To change wire size get the inspector on board and explaining when to would cost more the by code. I wouldnt do it its a waste of time and money

no matter what we theorize as electrics. It has always been .


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## JBrzoz00 (Nov 17, 2013)

That's how its done in some places here. When I first moved here I asked and was told that a switchleg is a tap. They still do this now.....I've also seen new homes, SER from disconnect to panel, no seperation between ground and neutrals, and the homes pass.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

JBrzoz00 said:


> That's how its done in some places here. When I first moved here I asked and was told that a switchleg is a tap. They still do this now.....I've also seen new homes, SER from disconnect to panel, no seperation between ground and neutrals, and the homes pass.


Just because a job gets a "pass" does not mean it's code compliant. It could mean that the inspector was taught to do it that way and* assumes *it's code.

Pete


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

+


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I just do everything I can in 14. Makes it easy. 
2 kitchen circuits
bath circuits
everything else gets 14


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

FF301 said:


> So yes you can tap off of 12 with 14 but no longer then 18 inches to connect the device
> But you can not use 14 as part of the branch circuit.


Guilty as charged!
Over 30 years ago, my 12.9 amp air conditioner, kept tripping the 15 amp breaker, so pulled 2, 12's through the conduit feeding it, but didn't replace the 14-2, from the jb to the receptacle. It was only 2-3 feet. The circuit had a 20 amp breaker feeding it. That was another round-to-it, that never happened.
I talked to a contractor, that said, he did it all the time, as it was a PITA, to pull a new run, for a short distance. Didn't necessarily make it right.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> Just because a job gets a "pass" does not mean it's code compliant. It could mean that the inspector was taught to do it that way and* assumes *it's code.
> 
> Pete


From the time I started doing electrical work in 99 up until 2 yrs ago, we were requred to bring the GEC along with the other conductors from the meter can to the first main service disconnect.


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