# Gas Prices are crazy, Electric Van?



## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Totally thinking about it. I have the Nissan 2500 and 3500s in both high roof and low roof. I would actually like to convert them to EV, vice purchase new ones as they are in great shape.

My only concern is towing. I would like ot be able to two my 18' tandem trailer and I am not 100% that there is something on the market for that either. I also read an article that had a cargo trailer with a dynamic charging station; basically as the axel turnd as the trailer moved down the road it charges the vehicle it is attached to.

It is kind of like the Millwaukee, Dewalk, Bosch arrguement - I am a bit too far down the road of V8 gas trucks for towing that it might be too far of a leap to go EV right now. If my trucks were rust buckets... totally differnt story. I am considering a PU for deliverys and "daily driver", I would want to go EV for that if the options were available.

Cheers
John


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> Totally thinking about it. I have the Nissan 2500 and 3500s in both high roof and low roof. I would actually like to convert them to EV, vice purchase new ones as they are in great shape.
> 
> My only concern is towing. I would like ot be able to two my 18' tandem trailer and I am not 100% that there is something on the market for that either. I also read an article that had a cargo trailer with a dynamic charging station; basically as the axel turnd as the trailer moved down the road it charges the vehicle it is attached to.
> 
> ...


i have a question for you ....
where does the energy come from that the trailer needs to generate a charge ?

hp is hp and mechanical losses can not be avoided

it would be the same as mounting a windmill on your hood
the drag from the windmill would actually put you in the negative by the time you counted mechanical and other losses


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i believe that one was attributed to AOC


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a question for you ....
> where does the energy come from that the trailer needs to generate a charge ?
> 
> hp is hp and mechanical losses can not be avoided
> ...


Well lets be clear, it is not "perpetual motion", think of it like net metering. The charge unit in the trailer is providing x% to offset the usage of batteries. It might get you an extra hour of driving depending on the vehicle and the load. It might only get you the same amount of drive time if you have a heavy load. If the trailer is not moving it does nothing for you.

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

Almost Retired said:


> i believe that one was attributed to AOC


I am not sure what AOC is, but gas just topped $2.02 a litre here (about $7.65 US Gal).

A $200 bill everytime I fill up now. I can't imagine what it like up in @joe-nwt area. Back in 2006 it already was $1.20 a litre...

Cheers
John


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

x amount of HP to pull the trailer, regardless of load in it
ok
the same amount of HP to push the generator as is replaced by it
but minus the losses
i promise you that if it were put in a test lab it would be proven to be a slight loss at best

if you get a plus , that is perpetual motion , even for a 1/4 seconds worth

if by net metering you are referring to solar? the sun is where the extra energy comes from


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> I am not sure what AOC is, but gas just topped $2.02 a litre here (about $7.65 US Gal).
> 
> A $200 bill everytime I fill up now.
> 
> ...


my bad: AOC is one of our recently elected, uneducated, female congress persons
her name : Anna something, something , cortez
she and 3 others became infamous for their views and statements shortly after the election


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I was thinking about converting my GM Van. I'll place the engine down lower to improve balance and to reduce rocking on a beam reach. Next I might put a street light pole thru the roof for a mast and attach some spreader's up there about 3/4's the way up. It's going to need a bowsprit in order to add a furling jib, so probably it won't fit into the garage any more , but just think about how relaxing it will be raising the mainsail , and voyaging from job to job. Still gotta figure where the anchor locker is going to go though.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> I am not sure what AOC is, but gas just topped $2.02 a litre here (about $7.65 US Gal).
> 
> A $200 bill everytime I fill up now. I can't imagine what it like up in @joe-nwt area. Back in 2006 it already was $1.20 a litre...
> 
> ...


$1.85 yesterday.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

joe-nwt said:


> $1.85 yesterday.


Well that is good. Your prices are set for three months at a time right? So your next jump will be $2.30 a litre LOL!
When is that expected to happen?

Cheers
John


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

As far as electric goes for towing. Most manufacturers cut the range of the vehicle in half when in tow mode. And due to the style of charging stations being pull in you have to unhitch the trailer when charging.

Car and driver recently did a review of the electric truck Rivian and said how great it did at towing but there 4 hour trip with either one stop(or none) with a regular truck was over 6 hours, 4 stops, and had to unhich the trailer each time they charged with the Rivian. If you added up the cost of the fast charging stations they used it was more to charge the truck than to fill up with Diesel. My friend who loves his electric car was figuring out cost because he was looking into an electric truck. After seeing the price for fast charging on the road and range deficiencies he decided to keep his diesel F250 for towing.

Probably a moot point if your charging at home and only towing a small trailer around town for work. But something you should be aware of.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My worry about electric is I might not know how much travelling I do in a day. I would want a gas vehicle as backup.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a question for you ....
> where does the energy come from that the trailer needs to generate a charge ?
> 
> hp is hp and mechanical losses can not be avoided
> ...


Fake news time.

Didn't AOC propose putting windmills on top of your car? The faster you go, the more you generate.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

MotoGP1199 said:


> As far as electric goes for towing. Most manufacturers cut the range of the vehicle in half when in tow mode. And due to the style of charging stations being pull in you have to unhitch the trailer when charging.
> 
> Car and driver recently did a review of the electric truck Rivian and said how great it did at towing but there 4 hour trip with either one stop(or none) with a regular truck was over 6 hours, 4 stops, and had to unhich the trailer each time they charged with the Rivian. If you added up the cost of the fast charging stations they used it was more to charge the truck than to fill up with Diesel. My friend who loves his electric car was figuring out cost because he was looking into an electric truck. After seeing the price for fast charging on the road and range deficiencies he decided to keep his diesel F250 for towing.
> 
> Probably a moot point if your charging at home and only towing a small trailer around town for work. But something you should be aware of.


Towing cuts range in half. Then you have to add turning on the heating or cooling. Then what is the range.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I keep my trucks until they die which is about 22 years each vehicle. If the batteries only last 10 years, will I have to now replace my vehicles every 10 years?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I would love an electric van too, but still think it’s an urban environment option at the moment.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> Well lets be clear, it is not "perpetual motion", think of it like net metering. The charge unit in the trailer is providing x% to offset the usage of batteries. It might get you an extra hour of driving depending on the vehicle and the load. It might only get you the same amount of drive time if you have a heavy load. If the trailer is not moving it does nothing for you.
> 
> Cheers
> John


a much better solution would be to put batteries in the underside of the trailer and driving motors on the axles instead of generators
then you could charge the trailer over nite etc. and not lose as much range when towing it


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a question for you ....
> where does the energy come from that the trailer needs to generate a charge ?
> 
> hp is hp and mechanical losses can not be avoided


Not sure if this is the same thing you guys are talking about, but there is a recharge system that kicks in when you are braking.
Technically, the system can almost bring you to a stop without actually engaging the brake pads.

Not free energy, but energy that would have otherwise been lost to brake HP.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

emtnut said:


> Not sure if this is the same thing you guys are talking about, but there is a recharge system that kicks in when you are braking.
> Technically, the system can almost bring you to a stop without actually engaging the brake pads.
> 
> Not free energy, but energy that would have otherwise been lost to brake HP.


IF that is what he is talking about then i agree with you
that will be a net plus, regenerative braking
and many of the ev's are made that way
but i didnt think he explained it that way
wait ..... could i be wrong ???? LOL


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Navyguy said:


> Well that is good. Your prices are set for three months at a time right? So your next jump will be $2.30 a litre LOL!
> When is that expected to happen?
> 
> Cheers
> John


We're on the highway so our fuel prices bounce around like yours. I think we are presently benefiting from the tax cut in Alta, as that's where our fuel comes from.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

My transit is a 2018 and already has 90,000 miles on it. I think it’ll make it the life of the loan(two more years) and another will take its place. I’ll contemplate hybrid, electric only depending upon what is available. We, as a household could realistically make an ev car work, but van with existing technology, no. I’m in London again and Paris for the first time this summer and looking forward to seeing what they have for ev and hydrogen powered vehicles.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Ford has released an EVan saw one at Wally World, (long and tall) they are going to use them for deliveries.
https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-transit/ Read Ford's opinion on mileage

Here is the problem I see 126 miles and at least 10 hours to charge based on 240v

"Actual range varies with conditions such as external elements, driving behaviors, vehicle maintenance and lithium-ion battery age. Available early 2022 "
No where do they discuss the 1-2 tons of materials and parts we carry daily
As for towing with one of these better be around the block.

What I do not understand is why are they not putting solar panels on the roof? You could get~2Kw worth of panels if you planned ahead.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I keep my trucks until they die which is about 22 years each vehicle. If the batteries only last 10 years, will I have to now replace my vehicles every 10 years?


Yes.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

They apparently do put them on the roof of rvs. That said, I doubt the out output exceeds a 15 or 20 amp 120v circuit, still, not a bad idea.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I am not at all saying that you could drive with the panels on the roof. But sitting in the sun for 8-10 hours could add in several miles. I read about a car MFG that put a solar panel on the roof of their car and was getting ~2 miles a day. Maybe enough to drive the air conditioner.

Local weather girl says 102 currently and predicts record high temp to today.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

One my customers bought a sprinter based camper with the panels on the roof and it has an inverter that handles both 120 and 240v.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Almost Retired said:


> my bad: AOC is one of our recently elected, uneducated, female congress persons
> her name : Anna something, something , cortez
> she and 3 others became infamous for their views and statements shortly after the election


Uneducated? She is a congresswoman you’re a dumb electrician. All seriousness I wonder who would score better on a IQ test AOC, Marjory Taylor Green, or you


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

nrp3 said:


> They apparently do put them on the roof of rvs. That said, I doubt the out output exceeds a 15 or 20 amp 120v circuit, still, not a bad idea.


They are good for trickle charging batteries. Not even deep cycling.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Slay301 said:


> Uneducated? She is a congresswoman you’re a dumb electrician. All seriousness I wonder who would score better on a IQ test AOC, Marjory Taylor Green, or you


A moron can get elected by morons.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Slay301 said:


> Uneducated? She is a congresswoman you’re a dumb electrician. All seriousness I wonder who would score better on a IQ test AOC, Marjory Taylor Green, or you


First question: what does IQ stand for?

AOC: something to do with transgender. That’s not enough letters.

MTG: a UN program to rip off the US.

Electrician: a brand of smart valve controllers. Ding ding ding! Correct.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

1 square meter of solar panel is about 280 watts +/- . Backstay correct me if I am wrong.


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## David046 (Dec 16, 2012)

Aegis said:


> I've started looking at electric vans now cause I just see my soul being sucked away at the gas pump. I'm looking at the smaller ones like a transit connect but they're not out yet. Anyone else thinking about making the jump?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk


I’ve order an 2022 Ford e-Transit about 6 months ago. It’s built and waiting to make it up here to Canada… apparently it takes 2 months after it’s built, that’s how long my Ford Transit High Roof took to get up here.

I also have 2 x 2022 Ram Promaster City’s and 1 x 2018 Nissan NV200 (new to me, only 18k km on it).

I also have a Rivian R1S coming which will be my QuoteMobile.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

paulengr said:


> First question: what does IQ stand for?
> 
> AOC: something to do with transgender. That’s not enough letters.
> 
> ...


Why don’t you write 20 paragraphs about what it stands for


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

99cents said:


> A moron can get elected by morons.


To your point.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Our electric rates just went up about 40%. Utility companies can't raise prices as quickly as gas stations so there was a period where the electric vehicles small advantage in fuel economy turned into a big advantage, but it's shrunk back now. Of course the electrical utilities don't lower prices as quickly either, so when / if prices at the pump return to normal, there may be a period where EV's have no advantage or maybe even pay more than gas and diesel vehicles. 

In the US most of our power generation is fossil fuels with some nuclear and hydro and a tiny bit of solar, wind, etc. If there's a big increase in electrical consumption due to increased use of electric vehicles, most of that additional use will have to come from fossil fuels and since Obama shut down a lot of the coal, that means oil and gas, and with Biden, that means imported oil and gas. In other words electric prices will not be immune to the rising price of oil and gas. So the EV advantage with the rising cost of oil will shrink. 

In Canada, most of the generation is hydro. This is a total game changer. Canada's hydro is a great natural resource and although it's a much bigger country by square miles it's a much smaller country by population and energy utilization. Electricity prices are lower relative to gas and diesel prices. If Canada has plenty of extra capacity for hydro, the additional demand could be met by hydro and the EVs could go from a big advantage to an even bigger advantage. If the increased utilization has to come from oil and gas, the advantage will shrink. 

I have seen these spikes come and go. An EV has enough down side I won't consider switching for a while. I am hoping this situation is short lived. The current spike in oil prices and the shortages that are rapidly developing are a product of Putin's war in Ukraine, and our democratic party's premature elimination of our domestic coal, oil, and gas production. (Premature in that they are reducing our production and utilization of these fuels before we've replaced them with other sources. That is a fundamentally bad move that creates dependence on energy imports (good for Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc.) and gives countries with massive coal generation like China an even bigger economic advantage, which will keep us handing our economy over to theirs month by month. Hopefully, the sleeping masses in the US will reach the pain point soon and push past the propaganda and vote for a change.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Don’t you lose a lot of range when you run the heat in an EV? Maybe not a great option up north where they see more snow days a year than sun.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> Don’t you lose a lot of range when you run the heat in an EV? Maybe not a great option up north where they see more snow days a year than sun.


You lose 40% with the heat on.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

kb1jb1 said:


> You lose 40% with the heat on.


That’s a lot. Enough to keep me away for now.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

SWDweller said:


> What I do not understand is why are they not putting solar panels on the roof? You could get~2Kw worth of panels if you planned ahead.


Where would your ladders go?


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Works for the rv’s, work truck probably a tougher proposition.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

paulengr said:


> First question: what does IQ stand for?
> 
> AOC: something to do with transgender. That’s not enough letters.
> 
> ...


AOC - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez born October 13, 1989), also known by her initials AOC, is an American politician and activist. She has served as the U.S. representative for New York's 14th congressional district since 2019, as a member of the Democratic Party.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Almost Retired said:


> AOC - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez born October 13, 1989), also known by her initials AOC, is an American politician and activist. She has served as the U.S. representative for New York's 14th congressional district since 2019, as a member of the Democratic Party.


AKA = Bartender


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> AKA = Bartender


i seem to recall that now that you mention it


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

AOC 2024


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## Wessone (Sep 10, 2014)

Navyguy said:


> Well lets be clear, it is not "perpetual motion", think of it like net metering. The charge unit in the trailer is providing x% to offset the usage of batteries. It might get you an extra hour of driving depending on the vehicle and the load. It might only get you the same amount of drive time if you have a heavy load. If the trailer is not moving it does nothing for you.
> 
> Cheers
> John


The only way that would work, is if the charge occurred during braking-converting mechanical energy to electric, that otherwise would be converted to heat via braking. Otherwise, drag is drag. You will consume more energy due to efficiency losses than you might gain. So, you probably would decrease your range, not increase it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i still think they should add batteries to the trailer and put motors in the wheels,
the controls for that could be part of the cord when you hooked up the trailer light connections
just make it a slave unit to the vehicle
give the trailer its own charging cord and onboard system
and yes use dynamic braking just like all the EV's are doing


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## Wessone (Sep 10, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> Uneducated? She is a congresswoman you’re a dumb electrician. All seriousness I wonder who would score better on a IQ test AOC, Marjory Taylor Green, or you


Yeah, great career move-bartender to congress. (Don't see that often.) 

But, lets all remember, being educated does not make you smart-I have a lifetime of examples to prove that by, some examples are on me, too.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> You lose 40% with the heat on.


That makes NO SENSE. They would NOT use resistance heating in an EV, it would be a heat pump or they are just idiots!


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

Almost Retired said:


> as a member of the Democratic Party.


Please, take note. This statement is exactly WHY people are fooled into voting DEMOCRAT. Democratic is a PROCESS. Democracy an ideology and method. A DEMOCRAT is a party member. Generally, Democrats do not believe in Democracy, they believe in CONTROL and TAXATION, in other words BIG GOVERNMENT.

In the Future please, use the word for a member of a party, not the process or ideology/method. They are Democrats. and the party is Democrat Party. Nothing to do with Democracy or being Democratic.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

I almost purchased an LNG converted Sprinter. The LNG is produced by the city here and sells for cheap per mile. I should have bought it, but it would mean fuelling up every time I needed a 1.5 to 2 hour one way trip so that I made sure I got the best deal. LNG in Tampa was CONSIDERABLY more. I would suggest that anyone look at LNG as an option LONG BEFORE you consider electric.
I now wish I had purchased it.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> I am not sure what AOC is, but gas just topped $2.02 a litre here (about $7.65 US Gal).
> 
> A $200 bill everytime I fill up now. I can't imagine what it like up in @joe-nwt area. Back in 2006 it already was $1.20 a litre...
> 
> ...


Charge more instead of feeding the Green People with delusions of grandeur. Electrical grid is antiquated as it is. Where will all this copper be coming from? Granted you up in Canada have a population less than NYC, here in US we have 3100% more, and 4million miles of road. NO WAY to have enough chargers in our lifetime regardless of what people say.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

emtnut said:


> Not sure if this is the same thing you guys are talking about, but there is a recharge system that kicks in when you are braking.
> Technically, the system can almost bring you to a stop without actually engaging the brake pads.
> 
> Not free energy, but energy that would have otherwise been lost to brake HP.


It was called KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) Formula1 introduced it in the 90's. Some passenger cars use this technology already.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Slay301 said:


> Uneducated? She is a congresswoman you’re a dumb electrician. All seriousness I wonder who would score better on a IQ test AOC, Marjory Taylor Green, or you


My money would be on Almost Retired.


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## dowtydaryll (Oct 20, 2021)

Navyguy said:


> Totally thinking about it. I have the Nissan 2500 and 3500s in both high roof and low roof. I would actually like to convert them to EV, vice purchase new ones as they are in great shape.
> 
> My only concern is towing. I would like ot be able to two my 18' tandem trailer and I am not 100% that there is something on the market for that either. I also read an article that had a cargo trailer with a dynamic charging station; basically as the axel turnd as the trailer moved down the road it charges the vehicle it is attached to.
> 
> ...


Take a look at the towing specs on the Ford F150 Lightening. Electric trucks will tow more than the gas and develop much more torque. Ditch the trailer wheel generator, it will create more drag than it gives back in power, unless it only engages for regen braking. I developed and raced electric and hybrid vehicles as the advisor and senior design engineer with the Central Connecticut State University Solar Research Team for 15 + years. Batteries are what held us back when I was teaching, but the progress in that area since I retired in 2008 has been amazing, and there is more coming very soon. Good luck. Maybe consider converting one of your fire breathing dragons if you've got some gearhead skills.

Daryll Dowty
Professor Emeritus, CCSU.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Djea3 said:


> That makes NO SENSE. They would NOT use resistance heating in an EV, it would be a heat pump or they are just idiots!


That is based on the upper range Tesla. Maybe it improved but that was this past winter's info. They were experimenting with heated surfaces instead of heating the air. I will Google it again to be accurate.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dowtydaryll said:


> Take a look at the towing specs on the Ford F150 Lightening. Electric trucks will tow more than the gas and develop much more torque. Ditch the trailer wheel generator, it will create more drag than it gives back in power, unless it only engages for regen braking. I developed and raced electric and hybrid vehicles as the advisor and senior design engineer with the Central Connecticut State University Solar Research Team for 15 + years. Batteries are what held us back when I was teaching, but the progress in that area since I retired in 2008 has been amazing, and there is more coming very soon. Good luck. Maybe consider converting one of your fire breathing dragons if you've got some gearhead skills.
> 
> Daryll Dowty
> Professor Emeritus, CCSU.


From what I read the Ford Lightning can tow 7500 pounds but the range is cut down by almost half. That is with the deluxe extended range package. Turn on the heat or AC and what will it be?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Djea3 said:


> That makes NO SENSE. They would NOT use resistance heating in an EV, it would be a heat pump or they are just idiots!


Also the refrigerants in heat pumps do not work well when it gets really cold out. 30F or below.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> Also the refrigerants in heat pumps do not work well when it gets really cold out. 30F or below.


Actually there are limits, however they have now improved heat pumps to be "effective" at a lower efficiency as low as 20 degrees below F. The issue is exactly where the efficiency curve falls below the resistance heat curve efficiency (power consumption). As heat pumps are around 20 times more efficient than resistance that number can be very low.

It is actually NOT the refrigerant, it is the fact that the heat pumps are "exchanging" heat. This means that the less relative heat the less efficient (to a great degree still more efficient than resistance heat). Remember that to a heat pump temperatures are Kelvin, not F or C. I hope this helps in understanding them a little.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Djea3 said:


> Actually there are limits, however they have now improved heat pumps to be "effective" at a lower efficiency as low as 20 degrees below F. The issue is exactly where the efficiency curve falls below the resistance heat curve efficiency (power consumption). As heat pumps are around 20 times more efficient than resistance that number can be very low.
> 
> It is actually NOT the refrigerant, it is the fact that the heat pumps are "exchanging" heat. This means that the less relative heat the less efficient (to a great degree still more efficient than resistance heat). Remember that to a heat pump temperatures are Kelvin, not F or C. I hope this helps in understanding them a little.


In residential heat pumps, the way they get them to work at lower temperatures is to put electric heat strips in front of the outside condenser. They are also changing the refrigerant again so how will that effect heat pumps? R22 had a wider temperature range. 410 is less and the new one I heard is even less. The efficiency drops off at 90 degrees. I do not know what the low end is. Refrigerants use pressure and temperature to exchange heat and the newer refrigerant use a much higher pressure than the older. They are up in the 400 to 500 psi range which means that the equipment and lines have to be able to handle it. All this stuff is nice when new but what happens 10 years down the road?
Any HVAC guys here?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm fairly certain that if heat pumps were the way to go in an EV they would already have them.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

Almost Retired said:


> i have a question for you ....
> where does the energy come from that the trailer needs to generate a charge ?
> 
> hp is hp and mechanical losses can not be avoided
> ...


Gravity. I saw a show that explained some of it, the unburdened load is disengaged in uphill and only have the raw weight load. once you start down hill the generator will kick in and charge the vehicle. They have had real good success in the mining industry that hauls oar downhill to crushers. Electric drives BIG empty truck uphill, load push's truck downhill charging batteries. BUT you need hills.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Aegis said:


> I've started looking at electric vans now cause I just see my soul being sucked away at the gas pump. I'm looking at the smaller ones like a transit connect but they're not out yet. Anyone else thinking about making the jump?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk


Search YouTube for “Tom the spark” he bought an electric service van outfitted whole 9 yards and has a video WHY IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just the cowboy said:


> Gravity. I saw a show that explained some of it, the unburdened load is disengaged in uphill and only have the raw weight load. once you start down hill the generator will kick in and charge the vehicle. They have had real good success in the mining industry that hauls oar downhill to crushers. Electric drives BIG empty truck uphill, load push's truck downhill charging batteries. BUT you need hills.



right regenerative braking, and the downhill too
but that was not how he explained ,, as far as i could tell


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I just don't think this is practical unless you are in an urban environment and maybe if you have the ability to plug in at jobsites. I think the range thing is a problem for what we do and the weight of the average loaded service vehicle, say the usual 3/4 or 1 ton van that we are used to. I'm not saying don't keep an eye on where this is going because I think there will come a time when they do have this all dialed in, but now isn't the time for most of us. Those in the city, if you can make it work, great, go for it. I'm interested in how it goes. Might be good for the sales and supervisory employees that can get around in EV cars or small light trucks.


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## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> In residential heat pumps, the way they get them to work at lower temperatures is to put electric heat strips in front of the outside condenser.


 As I understood the heat strips they are to assure de-icing only, and have nothing to do with the heat pump itself needing them to function. 
Remember that absolute 0 or 0 Deg K= -273.15 Deg C or -459.67 Deg F. This means there is a LOT of "heat" available even at -20F. A heat pump only MOVES heat, it does not create it at all. This is why a heat pump can be 23 or more times as efficient as a heat strip. Physics does not care about temperatures that are mammalian comfortable. Agreed that the closer the desired and ambient temps are the less work needed, but even at -23F it is cheaper to run a heat pump than a heat strip!

With regard to refrigerants: Dow Chemical spends hundreds of millions to assure that their patented refrigerants are the only ones allowed (approved) and when a patent expires that it is illegal to use that product in the USA any longer. 
Currently, there are manufacturers of refrigerators and even air conditioners that use PROPANE as a refrigerant quite efficiently and without paying anything to Dow Chem. We are now seeing refrigerators with labels stating that the refrigerant is highly flammable etc. Most likely they use liquid propane which is actually quite safe generally speaking. Slow leaks will not burn and the odds of a spark/flame during a puncture is very low and the burn would be very short lived. If I recall, Germany was using propane in automotive AC many years ago.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

The question is, which is more efficient, as in the draw on the battery, the toaster elements, or the mechanical draw of the compressor used for both ac and heat?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Aegis said:


> Anyone else thinking about making the jump?


The minute I invest in an E-van the price of electricity will triple and gas will drop back down to $20/bbl.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> The minute I invest in an E-van the price of electricity will triple and gas will drop back down to $20/bbl.


So why don't you get right on it to make things reasonable for the rest of us? [emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Speaking of vans, anybody see anything on the lots? 

I ordered a new Savana extended version about 10 months ago. They still won't give me a production date. I'm getting a impatient. Just wondering if this is all of North America? At this point I'm not even fussy what brand I get.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I suspect it is and used vehicles are expensive too.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

They are predicting major blackouts and brown outs this summer for major parts of the country. How will that affect the EVs that are being forced on us?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> They are predicting major blackouts and brown outs this summer for major parts of the country. How will that affect the EVs that are being forced on us?


It will certainly look bad on those that are forcing it on us.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Ill sell more generators in the meantime. Already went out once last weekend. The loss of the Wifi due to whatever powers the fiber in the neighborhood was the only real issue. Oh well.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

joe-nwt said:


> Speaking of vans, anybody see anything on the lots?
> 
> I ordered a new Savana extended version about 10 months ago. They still won't give me a production date. I'm getting a impatient. Just wondering if this is all of North America? At this point I'm not even fussy what brand I get.


I just heard this one from a friend of mine, his brother ordered an F-150 and has been waiting for months and months. They gave him a VIN and let him track the order through production, all the way up to a video of it rolling out the door at the end of the line. Then more weeks of waiting for shipping / transport. 

The guy goes to the dealer's web site and sees what appears to be his truck on the showroom floor. He calls the dealer, keeps quiet about the web site, just asks if his truck has arrived. The dealer confirms it's still who-knows-where in transit. Drives to the dealership and checks the VIN on the floor, sure enough it's his. I think they just decided to take a swing at someone paying more for it than he did, I am not sure how they were going to deal with getting him a truck... 

Nice to see that in good times and bad, car salesmen are just as trustworthy as ever


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

I’ll just leave this here………


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

bill39 said:


> I’ll just leave this here………
> View attachment 165643


Apparently that is not 100% accurate.









California, Facing Power Crisis, Frets Over Electric Car Charging Routines


Power grid operators encouraged Californians to charge their electric vehicles before energy conservation blocks set in during the state's latest heat wave.




www.newsweek.com


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

This stuff cannot be made up. That yellow three wheel bicycle with a basket and flag is looking more like a reality. And the baseball card for the spokes.


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