# Marking a panel after a service change



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I’m not at a computer so I can’t look at the code, but I know that it clearly requires all the circuits in the panel to be labeled. So when you install a new panel, you have to label the circuits. 

This is a requirement and every inspector that I know of looks for it.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Let common sense prevail on this one.

If you were a customer that had a service change done, would you expect/want the electrician to label the panel if it wasn't already?

At our shop, we will spend up to about a half hour tracking and labeling a panel afterwards. Sometimes you just can't find where a couple of the circuits went. But, a half hour of labeling usually gets you about 90-95% of the panel labeled and the customers like it. I will sometimes leave off the circuits we can't find after I know it's not the fridge/freezer/something important and let the customer know they need to keep an eye out for something not working, and then label the breaker when they figure out which one it is.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Cow said:


> Let common sense prevail on this one.
> 
> If you were a customer that had a service change done, would you expect/want the electrician to label the panel if it wasn't already?
> 
> At our shop, we will spend up to about a half hour tracking and labeling a panel afterwards. Sometimes you just can't find where a couple of the circuits went. But, a half hour of labeling usually gets you about 90-95% of the panel labeled and the customers like it. I will sometimes leave off the circuits we can't find after I know it's not the fridge/freezer/something important and let the customer know they need to keep an eye out for something not working, and then label the breaker when they figure out which one it is.



I do the same!
I have found the most common things that I forget to look for right away are:
Dishwasher
Stove vent hood
Outdoor receptacles or 120V circuit to an outbuilding


I now look for these, then if none of the "unknowns" are these, I leave them off and tell the customer to look for something not working like you said.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

You will not get a final without the panel being labeled here in Southern Ca.

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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

General outlet

General outlet

General outlet


General outlet

General outlet....

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

trentonmakes said:


> General outlet
> 
> General outlet
> 
> ...


 That doesn't work.

*408.4 Field Identification Required.
(A)* Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit
and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its
clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification
shall include an approved degree of detail that allows each
circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that
contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described
accordingly. The identification shall be included in a
circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the
panel door in the case of a panelboard and at each switch or
circuit breaker in a switchboard or switchgear. No circuit shall
be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions
of occupancy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

For those of you who leave circuits off, doesn't that worry you? A hidden condensate pump, a sump pump to prevent water from getting into an odd place, an outlet powering a cable TV amplifier tucked away in the attic, a second circuit for smoke detectors, etc. etc. 

When I can't find circuits, I will leave them turned on and the label blank if there are 4 or less. I've never had an inspector or homeowner complain about that.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

trentonmakes said:


> General outlet
> 
> General outlet
> 
> ...


Molly’s room
Robert’s room


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This can be a real time eater. I normally trust the existing ID unless it’s a real mess and label anything new I install. Sometimes I will get the HO to help. He walks around the house while I turn breakers on and off.

I went into a newer home once to complete deficiencies left over from the original contractor. You get to the point of diminishing returns. In this instance, the panel directory was blank. Without moving furniture and creating general chaos, there may always be some mystery circuits.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Molly’s room
> Robert’s room


The NEC also says that you can't do that. I have had customers tell me to use words like that, but that doesn't help when someone moves out.

From the code section I posted above: "_No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy._".



> This can be a real time eater. I normally trust the existing ID unless it’s a real mess and label anything new I install. Sometimes I will get the HO to help. He walks around the house while I turn breakers on and off.


 Agreed. I hate labelling panels. It's just a pain in the ass and it has to be done at the end when all the real work is done and you just want to go home. And I had to spend $800 on a circuit mapper to stop me from having to bring a second guy to label the panel.

If there is a good panel schedule on the old panel I will definitely use it to label the new one, I just put numbers on the wires before I take them off the old breakers. IMO, labelling the panel is worthless. When I need to shut off a circuit I never depend on the panel schedule because it is usually wrong.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I agree about labeling the panel after a service upgrade, I'm spent and want to go home. I have started to label panel before the upgrade to possibly identify back fed circuits etc. I usually drive ground rods and cut stucco days before i do the upgrade so it's not a big deal to label panel then too.

They give me about 6 hours to do the process and i was stressing doing it all at once so I've adopted this method. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I agree about labeling the panel after a service upgrade, I'm spent and want to go home. *I have started to label panel before the upgrade to possibly identify back fed circuits etc.* I usually drive ground rods and cut stucco days before i do the upgrade so it's not a big deal to label panel then too.
> 
> They give me about 6 hours to do the process and i was stressing doing it all at once so I've adopted this method.


Tell me more.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> I strongly believe in marking the panel after a service change even if it means running around the house with a tracer. However, recently I got into a discussion with several AHJs and they said you only have to mark the new circuits if any. In other words you could have 30 circuits that are totally unmarked. That is not how I read NEC 406.4. I know sometimes what should be done is not necessarily what the code says. Anybody have some ammunition that I could fire back to prove my point?
> Thank you.


Many years ago, when MH was starting out as a code guru, I went to one of his classes for some CE credits. It was there that he preached that labeling the panel was akin to a signature on your work. 

I now sign them as Anonymous. :biggrin:


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Tell me more.


I've had circuits that were fed from more then one breaker. Somewhere they must have tied into a separate circuit or a 14/3 feeding 2 circuits and put them back on same line. All I know is that the lights and receptacles on circuit 2 would come back on on circuit 4!
All kinds of crazy things i find that i want to address and note when i give final invoice.
This is why I turn one breaker on at a time while all the others are off when labeling a panel. It takes longer but I catch anything before the upgrade. 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I've had circuits that were fed from more then one breaker. Somewhere they must have tied into a separate circuit or a 14/3 feeding 2 circuits and put them back on same line. All I know is that the lights and receptacles on circuit 2 would come back on on circuit 4!
> All kinds of crazy things i find that i want to address and note when i give final invoice.
> This is why I turn one breaker on at a time while all the others are off when labeling a panel. It takes longer but I catch anything before the upgrade.


But how do you label the panel before installing it?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Unless I’m getting paid for it, I am not in the business of verifying existing circuits. MacDonald’s charges to supersize and I’m no different. I simply can’t be bumbling around at job end identifying circuits especially, like Hack says, at the end of the day when one’s mind is already out the door.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

I have a note book. When i take the wires off the breaker I label them with numbers that correlate with my schedule on notebook. 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

zac said:


> I have a note book. When i take the wires off the breaker I label them with numbers that correlate with my schedule on notebook.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Gotcha. That’s the way I do it when there is an existing panel schedule that I’m going to use.


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## Incognito (Apr 14, 2019)

I replaced a panel for a guy who not only had every circuit accurately labeled, he had a colour coded plan beside the panel showing every outlet and which circuit controlled them. I put the old circuits in the same locations on the new panel so his plan was still correct.

I even added the few new outlets I installed on the plan for him.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

HackWork said:


> *For those of you who leave circuits off, doesn't that worry you?* A hidden condensate pump, a sump pump to prevent water from getting into an odd place, an outlet powering a cable TV amplifier tucked away in the attic, a second circuit for smoke detectors, etc. etc.


No.



99cents said:


> Unless I’m getting paid for it, I am not in the business of verifying existing circuits. MacDonald’s charges to supersize and I’m no different. I simply can’t be bumbling around at job end identifying circuits especially, like Hack says, at the end of the day when one’s mind is already out the door.



Why aren't you including some time in your quotes for labeling existing circuits?

This surprises me since I thought all you resi guys are into upselling and cost adders. 

*Quote includes:*

*abc
*xyz
*.5 hours to label any pre-existing unlabeled circuits in home. Circuits not able to be located will be left off and will be the customers responsibility to label.
*etc
*etc


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Cow said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Labeling existing circuits is one thing, verifying them is something else. If the customer wants the accuracy of the existing directory verified, it’s an extra.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Labeling existing circuits is one thing, verifying them is something else. If the customer wants the accuracy of the existing directory verified, it’s an extra.


Maybe your code is different, but the NEC requires the circuits to be labelled accurately. So that work is included in the cost of the panel/service change.

I include it in the list of tasks performed in a service change, but I don't price it separately.


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> That doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a few breakers, I never had an inspector question the labels general outlet.



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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

*408.4 not 406*



kb1jb1 said:


> I strongly believe in marking the panel after a service change even if it means running around the house with a tracer. However, recently I got into a discussion with several AHJs and they said you only have to mark the new circuits if any. In other words you could have 30 circuits that are totally unmarked. That is not how I read NEC 406.4. I know sometimes what should be done is not necessarily what the code says. Anybody have some ammunition that I could fire back to prove my point?
> Thank you.


 



I did a typo. 408.4 not 406. Time for better eyes.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> That doesn't work.
> 
> *408.4 Field Identification Required.*
> *(A)* Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit
> ...


 

Thanks for picking up my typo. I am new to this forum and my code book was not near the computer. 408 and not 406


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Maybe your code is different, but the NEC requires the circuits to be labelled accurately. So that work is included in the cost of the panel/service change.
> 
> I include it in the list of tasks performed in a service change, but I don't price it separately.


Do you leave notes at the panel as well, something like “ The buried splice is in the ceiling in Molly’s room”?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Do you leave notes at the panel as well, something like “ The buried splice is in the ceiling in Molly’s room”?


That's not required to pass a panel/service upgrade inspection or else I would.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

We definitely label the panel at the end in a very detailed fashion. Once that is complete I will put in in a template on an 8.5 x 11 paper and laminate it. Both the clients and the inspectors love it. It definitely takes more time, but for me I look at it as a "value add".

We price out the panel change for 8 hours anyway, so there is always time at the end of the day to do it.

Our details will look like "North bedroom West wall receptacles", "Kitchen East counter split receptacle" or "Rear exterior GFCI receptacle", etc.
@HackWork I am interested in this circuit tracer that you purchased. I have one also, not $800 and it is junk... not accurate at all.

Cheers
John


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

HackWork said:


> *For those of you who leave circuits off, doesn't that worry you? * A hidden condensate pump, a sump pump to prevent water from getting into an odd place, an outlet powering a cable TV amplifier tucked away in the attic, a second circuit for smoke detectors, etc. etc.
> 
> When I can't find circuits, I will leave them turned on and the label blank if there are 4 or less. I've never had an inspector or homeowner complain about that.



No it doesn't worry me. If the HO is there I question them on items like pumps, attic vents, etc. I've had abandoned circuits before that I spent a lot of time tracking down. So it's just easier to let the HO know the circuits are off and to look for anything not working. If its an empty house, I will usually turn them on and leave the label blank.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> No it doesn't worry me. If the HO is there I question them on items like pumps, attic vents, etc. I've had abandoned circuits before that I spent a lot of time tracking down. So it's just easier to let the HO know the circuits are off and to look for anything not working. If its an empty house, I will usually turn them on and leave the label blank.


I will leave them blank like you said, but not off.

Do you have any idea how many homeowners don't know what a sump pump is or if they have one? Or a cable amplifier. Or a condensate pump. It just seems too risky. 

I've seen 60' of low voltage wire run from the alarm panel thru an attic down to a lower attic above another area of the house and connected to a tranny plugged into an outlet curried under the insulation. Now that alarm panel would work while I was there and for the next few days until the battery died. Then someone would have to come back to figure it out.

ETA: I'm not trying to nag you or change your mind, just posting my experience. 

Another example that I thought of was when I found a second air handler in the attic of someone's house, they didn't know it was there and the filter hadn't been changed in the 5 years they lived there. It was tucked away in a horribly small crawl area under an eave. If that had a condensate pump that I left off, it could have been a lot of water damage.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> We definitely label the panel at the end in a very detailed fashion. Once that is complete I will put in in a template on an 8.5 x 11 paper and laminate it. Both the clients and the inspectors love it. It definitely takes more time, but for me I look at it as a "value add".
> 
> We price out the panel change for 8 hours anyway, so there is always time at the end of the day to do it.
> 
> ...


With my bad handwriting, typing it on a computer and printing it out is easier. But I gave up on that idea.

For labels I will only get as specific as the room. Living room receptacle, east bedroom receptacle, counter receptacle, etc. Not the wall.

The circuit mapper that I bought is the Tasco https://www.tasco-usa.com/shop/circuit-mapper-system/

I bought the 24 circuit model because that is usually enough if I exclude the breakers that I know such as subpanel, AC, etc. You can also connect it to the first 24 circuits then come back and connect it to the second 24 circuits if its a full panel.

It works very well. It's not perfect, but it works better than I expected. And it's light years easier than running back and forth to the basement to shut off circuits yourself. It uses 9V batteries in both the receiver and transmitter, and you have to plan on buying new batteries each job because it goes thru them quick. I don't know why they require a battery on the transmitter which connects directly to the power.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> With my bad handwriting, typing it on a computer and printing it out is easier. But I gave up on that idea.
> 
> For labels I will only get as specific as the room. Living room receptacle, east bedroom receptacle, counter receptacle, etc. Not the wall.
> 
> ...


That’s an expensive piece of gear but, if it works, it works.

I have been known to turn a job site radio up full blast while turning breakers on and off. Not the greatest way to do it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> That’s an expensive piece of gear but, if it works, it works.
> 
> I have been known to turn a job site radio up full blast while turning breakers on and off. Not the greatest way to do it.


 It is expensive but it pays for itself by not having to bring a second guy to a panel change job or have to spend three times as long running up and down chasing circuits. Most houses here have the panel in the basement and are two stories above that.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

HackWork said:


> With my bad handwriting, typing it on a computer and printing it out is easier. But I gave up on that idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thing looks awesome. 

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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> That thing looks awesome.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Telsa recommended it to me, I think he is the only other person here to have it. 

I found a few little tricks that help make it better, if anyone gets one we can discuss it.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The circuit mapper that I bought is the Tasco https://www.tasco-usa.com/shop/circuit-mapper-system/
> 
> I bought the 24 circuit model because that is usually enough if I exclude the breakers that I know such as subpanel, AC, etc. You can also connect it to the first 24 circuits then come back and connect it to the second 24 circuits if its a full panel.


How does it work with twins and quads? I am assuming it is transmitting through the clamp of some sort... and I note there is a connection to the main lug so wondering if it can tell the difference between a 1a and a 1b on a twin or quad breaker.

Cheers
John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> How does it work with twins and quads? I am assuming it is transmitting through the clamp of some sort... and I note there is a connection to the main lug so wondering if it can tell the difference between a 1a and a 1b on a twin or quad breaker.
> 
> Cheers
> John


You clip a little CT around each circuit conductor. It doesn't matter if they are on tandems, quads, 2-poles, etc.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

The price for this comes up at about $1400 USD for the 42 cct model; every panel we do is over 32 ccts so it might make sense to jump to the next model.

If you estimated a saving of $100 on every panel change, in 14 changes it would be paid for; that seems pretty reasonable to me. You still have to figure out the dishwasher, fridge, furnace, etc.

This is a strong contender for purchase.

Thanks again!

Cheers
John


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Navyguy said:


> The price for this comes up at about $1400 USD for the 42 cct model; every panel we do is over 32 ccts so it might make sense to jump to the next model.
> 
> If you estimated a saving of $100 on every panel change, in 14 changes it would be paid for; that seems pretty reasonable to me. You still have to figure out the dishwasher, fridge, furnace, etc.
> 
> ...





> You still have to figure out the dishwasher, fridge, furnace, etc.


 The dishwasher is often a cord running under the sink, I just put the receiver up to it to find the circuit. 
The fridge I will reach behind if it is small enough to pull out a bit. But often the fridge is on a circuit with the rest of the kitchen, so no need to label it separately. 
The furnace can be found by toughing the receiver to the romex feeding it or by opening the junction box on it.

I bought mine here for cheaper than the prices you mentioned: http://www.mitchellinstrument.com/circuit-mapping-system.html


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I love doing panel changes because they are good money and I generally don't have to crawl up into an attic or under a house to do them. 

I hate doing panel changes because you are screwing with something that has 40 years of bad electrical work attached to it and anything you do to change it could cause you hours of unpaid troubleshooting to fix.

Therefore I am very careful to put everything back exactly the way I found it i.e. on the same phase, and without new AFCI or GFCI breakers if I can possibly avoid them. The only change I will make is to downgrade a breaker to match the wire size.

The inspectors here will fail an installation if there is a blank spot in the index or if each index entry is not unique. I have no problem "accepting the truth" of the existing index and will copy it onto the new index (except changing "Molly's room" to "bedroom two" and so on). If the index is blank I will do a very fast, very broad trace and label. I have not found a client yet who is willing to pay me extra just to get the index correct. I will do a high quality job on the panel change, but as far as the index is concerned, I do what I need to do to pass inspection and that's it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Coppersmith said:


> I hate doing panel changes because you are screwing with something that has 40 years of bad electrical work attached to it and anything you do to change it could cause you hours of unpaid troubleshooting to fix.


 That is why you mark it well as you take it apart. There will never be an issue if you simply pay attention when taking the old panel apart. I tell my guys that, do not rush, just pay attention and use tape or number markers to label odd things.



> Therefore I am very careful to put everything back exactly the way I found it i.e. on the same phase, and without new AFCI or GFCI breakers if I can possibly avoid them. The only change I will make is to downgrade a breaker to match the wire size.


 Exactly, I spoke too soon above lol.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Story time. Every once in a while I will find that someone installed a 3-wire and put the red wire on the ground. I am not sure if they were using it as an EGC or just kept it as a spare and grounded it for safety. 

Anyway, I saw this in a panel once but I did not tell my guy about it. When I came back after he finished I checked and saw that he landed both the black and red on a 2-pole breaker. If he energized that it could have electrified all the metal boxes on that circuit. 

He clearly did not do what I told him about carefully checking the panel before taking it apart. Fired on the spot.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

I have found this red wire on ground situation also. I wasn't sure how to handle it so I wrapped the red wire with green tape and left it grounded. What do you suggest doing?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Coppersmith said:


> I have found this red wire on ground situation also. I wasn't sure how to handle it so I wrapped the red wire with green tape and left it grounded. What do you suggest doing?


I do exactly the same thing. I don't want to just cap it off in case it is being used as the EGC. 

Just like you said, the only thing I change is lowering the break size when necessary.


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## JRas (Sep 20, 2017)

Panel changeout includes marking of the panel. Had inspectors ask, are you going to mark the panel, and be specific about not wanting "general lighting". Last inspector was giving me a hard time about the panel being a 1/2" too high (older house had 3 panels, and 3 meters in same proximity). Had so much flex seal, I thought I was going to enter the Matrix...

Often mark everything I can with white tape flag loop, if the old panel is marked or they left the ole romex label on.

Mark anything unknown, even then sometimes you can't find a 15/20amp circuit. Do my best but not going to crawl up into attics looking into J-boxes / buried goodies. If it was on before, it stays on, if not cap it.


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## JRas (Sep 20, 2017)

JRas said:


> Panel changeout includes marking of the panel. Had inspectors ask, are you going to mark the panel, and be specific about not wanting "general lighting". Last inspector was giving me a hard time about the panel being a 1/2" too high (older house had 3 panels, and 3 meters in same proximity). Had so much flex seal, I thought I was going to enter the Matrix...
> 
> Often mark everything I can with white tape flag loop, if the old panel is marked or they left the ole romex label on.
> 
> Mark anything unknown, even then sometimes you can't find a 15/20amp circuit. Do my best but not going to crawl up into attics looking into J-boxes / buried goodies. If it was on before, it stays on, if not cap it.





Coppersmith said:


> I love doing panel changes because they are good money and I generally don't have to crawl up into an attic or under a house to do them.
> 
> I hate doing panel changes because you are screwing with something that has 40 years of bad electrical work attached to it and anything you do to change it could cause you hours of unpaid troubleshooting to fix.
> 
> ...


I normally mark by cardinal direction. North bedroom, South Bedroom, West Sub Panel, etc

Until you're in that attic putting lags for bracing into the roof/trusses. That sucks, usually somebody on the outside beating a hammer to find location, a guy drilling through from the inside of the attic truss to the outside of the roof. 



HackWork said:


> The NEC also says that you can't do that. I have had customers tell me to use words like that, but that doesn't help when someone moves out.
> 
> From the code section I posted above: "_No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy._".
> 
> ...


Need that second guy you fired :vs_laugh:


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> The dishwasher is often a cord running under the sink, I just put the receiver up to it to find the circuit.
> The fridge I will reach behind if it is small enough to pull out a bit. But often the fridge is on a circuit with the rest of the kitchen, so no need to label it separately.
> The furnace can be found by toughing the receiver to the romex feeding it or by opening the junction box on it.
> 
> I bought mine here for cheaper than the prices you mentioned: http://www.mitchellinstrument.com/circuit-mapping-system.html


So I just pulled the trigger on this new tool. I purchased the 42 CCT model based on @HackWork recommendation. I have a single home that is being converted to three apartments, I am hoping this will pay for itself very quickly on this job and a few others I have coming up.

When I get it I will provide a review and let you know.

I appreciate @HackWork recommendation.

Cheers
John


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm not even sure how I got here, old thread ans all, but, since I'm here. Back in my service day's, I had this obnoxiously loud 110v. metal can buzzer that I stuck a plug on. No matter where in a residence I plugged it in, I could hear it at the panel. Made life way easy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> I'm not even sure how I got here, old thread ans all, but, since I'm here. Back in my service day's, I had this obnoxiously loud 110v. metal can buzzer that I stuck a plug on. No matter where in a residence I plugged it in, I could hear it at the panel. Made life way easy.


That's no different than a radio, or an extension cord with a drop light plugged into it. And it is far from easy. Maybe it's fine on a small single story house. But when the panel is in the basement and you have to identify 20 outlets and lights on the second floor, those 20 trips up and down multiple flights of stairs is a giant pain in the ass. Even up and down 1 flight of stairs to the first floor starts to get old after the first few times.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

If the original circuit is blank, I leave it blank on the new panel. Marking a panel can take hours and is a royal pain as Hacky said. If you're dealing with a larger house that has been hacked up over the years, it could be a downright nightmare to mark the panel. Most inspectors here don't even look at the panel, and even if they do, they don't care about a few blank spots.


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## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Story time. Every once in a while I will find that someone installed a 3-wire and put the red wire on the ground. I am not sure if they were using it as an EGC or just kept it as a spare and grounded it for safety.
> 
> Anyway, I saw this in a panel once but I did not tell my guy about it. When I came back after he finished I checked and saw that he landed both the black and red on a 2-pole breaker. If he energized that it could have electrified all the metal boxes on that circuit.
> 
> He clearly did not do what I told him about carefully checking the panel before taking it apart. Fired on the spot.


Old post I know... But DAMN, that is kind of rough. Fired on the spot?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

jarrydee said:


> Old post I know... But DAMN, that is kind of rough. Fired on the spot?


He was a cash part timer. I have no patience for people who don’t listen.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Red taped green landed on the ground bar is common for pool light circuits, messing that up will have some extremely bad consequences if someone happens to be in the pool at the time.


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