# When to give up on an "apprentice"



## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

What are some of the criteria you guys and gals use to weed out the bad help and s***birds, specifically green help?

I've had one since Aug. 1 and I have been getting tired of the dopey look, the failure to pay attention, doesn't want to keep his tool belt on or even near him. He crossed a line and got smart at the wrong time. I'm banishing him to sorting junk boxes


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

When the mouth starts they get the boot


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

1. If they are liberals
2. If they are registered democrats
3. If they quote stupid movie lines
4. If they don't hold a shovel properly on the first try
5. If they come to work looking like they should have stayed in bed
6. If it's been a month and they still haven't added to their tool list
7. If they come to work with cat hair on them
8. If dogs don't like them


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Put it in writting !
List the problems 
yell him what you expect
tell him clearly what will happen 
if he doesn't change !


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 1. If they are liberals
> 2. If they are registered democrats
> 3. If they quote stupid movie lines
> 4. If they don't hold a shovel properly on the first try
> ...


I hope you're joking, because most of this list doesn't even come close to a valid reason to dismiss someone.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> I hope you're joking, because most of this list doesn't even come close to a valid reason to dismiss someone.


It's a mixed bag of truth and humor.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 1. If they are liberals
> 2. If they are registered democrats
> 3. If they quote stupid movie lines
> 4. If they don't hold a shovel properly on the first try
> ...


You left out:

0) If they 'work' while sitting on the slab
00) If they can't repeat what they just did -- and it's assembled right before their eyes


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

LightsOn81 said:


> What are some of the criteria you guys and gals use to weed out the bad help and s***birds, specifically green help?
> 
> I've had one since Aug. 1 and I have been getting tired of the dopey look, the failure to pay attention, doesn't want to keep his tool belt on or even near him. He crossed a line and got smart at the wrong time. I'm banishing him to sorting junk boxes


Here's some criteria for weeding out the "B" players: 

1. He's dopey looking.
2. He doesn't pay attention.
3. He doesn't keep his tools close by so he's inefficient or totally unproductive. 
4. He's a smart ass.

Do this before your tempted to pay him to do things that are a complete waste of money because you don't know that the best time to let someone go is usually the first time you think about it. 

If you've given him three documented chances to change and he hasn't improved then cut him loose and move on.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 1. If they are liberals
> 2. If they are registered democrats
> 3. If they quote stupid movie lines
> 4. If they don't hold a shovel properly on the first try
> ...


Requirements for a low voltage contractor?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

For me, you have to be on site early and every day. I can work with a lump of clay if the clay shows up.


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## rrolleston (Mar 6, 2012)

Only excuse for not being to work on time is your dead. You should be there early and have all your tools ready or you don't work for me anymore.


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

rrolleston said:


> Only excuse for not being to work on time is your dead. You should be there early and have all your tools ready or you don't work for me anymore.


I agree with you. However, once we had my daughter I understood how people can be late occasionally. Kids can throw a wrench into your morning.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

LightsOn81 said:


> What are some of the criteria you guys and gals use to weed out the bad help and s***birds, specifically green help?
> 
> I've had one since Aug. 1 and I have been getting tired of the dopey look, the failure to pay attention, doesn't want to keep his tool belt on or even near him. He crossed a line and got smart at the wrong time. I'm banishing him to sorting junk boxes


I've always thought why keep a guy around like this when there is someone else out there who would appreciate having this job.

That gives me a pretty low tolerance for BS from apprentices. They are here to lighten the j-mens work load, not be a constant source of frustration and babysitting. If I feel I'm spending more time focused on the apprentice than the work he should be helping me with.....NEXT!


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

rrolleston said:


> Only excuse for not being to work on time is your dead. You should be there early and have all your tools ready or you don't work for me anymore.


15 minutes early is on time was the standard at one time and it worked well.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Suncoast Power said:


> Requirements for a low voltage contractor?


Normally LV guys would require tennis shoes, holes in jeans, and funky looking hats.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 15 minutes early is on time was the standard at one time and it worked well.



At one time I subscribed to the "rather be an hour early than a minute late", and it serves me well.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Normally LV guys would require tennis shoes, holes in jeans, and funky looking hats.


Technically we are the LV guys. I don't know many electricians that work with medium voltage.
Lineman yes and some in industry. But as a whole, we are low voltage guys.


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## Gnome (Dec 25, 2013)

TRurak said:


> I agree with you. However, once we had my daughter I understood how people can be late occasionally. Kids can throw a wrench into your morning.


Basically there are three types of people who are late:


the chronically late: these are the guys who will be late 3-5 times a week. Best to go through the steps to turf these guys as soon as possible.
The guy who is only late on the first day of the week: These guys are either heavy binge drinkers or they leave town every weekend (girlfriend in another city; like skiing, whatever). Maybe worth working with to curb their absenteeism especially if otherwise a good worker.
Person who is late occasionally (like less than once a month). **** happens and some people's lives are more complicated than others. Single parent whose kid gets sick at the last minute therefor needing to find alternate care for the day or similar I can have sympathy for and cut some slack.
And of course anyone can get a flat tire or be involved in a accident on their way to work. I had the misfortune to get hit by a car on my way to work on my_ second day on the job _once_. _Ya, that didn't look good. Was never late for the remainder of my time there though; even the day my car ate it's water pump.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Technically we are the LV guys. I don't know many electricians that work with medium voltage.
> Lineman yes and some in industry. But as a whole, we are low voltage guys.


True, I was thinking of cat5 kings. The home of the man bun types.


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

Have you thought about things that you could do different? 

Usually if youngsters are disengaged it is due to the mentor not keeping them interested.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Essex said:


> Have you thought about things that you could do different?
> 
> Usually if youngsters are disengaged it is due to the mentor not keeping them interested.


Or they haven't put down the controller and gotten their collective asses off the couch to go outside in years.


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

Not in America it's not. Its because they have too many distractions avaible to them at a young age ie. Smartphones.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm a 2nd year apprentice,with nearly 3 years in the trade. The very first electrical job that I got, they had an unwritten rule to be there 30 minutes or more before work. I would always show up 15 minutes before. I found out the rule once I got fired after only 2 weeks. That was in March of 2014. I didn't get hired by another contractor until September 2014. I worked until an old J-Man who didn't want to tell you something twice. He would explain the things we were doing. I learned a ton from him until I was fired for a lack of experience. He showed me what I needed to do to be a better helper. I learned about the different materials that we use. I started doing jobs until a very young master electrician. He taught me how to troubleshoot and was patient with teaching me. Working with him made me feel like I could finally be an electrician. He didn't have consistent work when I met him, so I went to another company and kept in touch. I started working for another company,but they didn't care about their employees. I did lots of work on my own working for them. I kept building confidence. I got laid off from there and started working for another contractor. This is where I was taught how to implement the electrical code into the work that I'd been doing. The J-Men at this company were impressed by me always being on time and willing to learn. I got fired a few days before Thanksgiving, because they were a very small company, and I was the last one hired. I started working for my present company. This place is very different from any of the previous stops. Everyone in the higher positions are willing to explain everything about the jobs that we're doing. They explain it in a way to keep you interested. We have quite a few guys in their early 20s. They do a great job of explaining to those guys what is expected of them. I've seen the younger guys and myself ( I'm 30 ) get better because of the J-Men that I've been working under. I the best thing you can do is talk to your helpers and apprentice. Let them learn how and why you're doing something this way. Stay on them, telling them to go to school. If they aren't willing to do that, then they aren't serious about this trade. They should treat their tools like it's an investment in their future. A good apprentice would always have their tools with them.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Essex said:


> Have you thought about things that you could do different?
> 
> *Usually if youngsters are disengaged it is due to the mentor not keeping them interested.*


*
*
...this.is.not.a.vidio.game,.its.a.lifelong.career:jester:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Watch somebody use a screwdriver, if after 6 weeks it looks like a foreign tool in their hand, they'll never make it.


They should be able to use the screwdriver with one hand, and the screwdriver remains perfectly straight with no problem.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

MechanicalDVR said:


> If they quote stupid movie lines


Guilty.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

if the are little late a few times the get a counseling session, chronically late they better have a good medical reason.
if they are going to be late all they need to do is call me and let me know.

[email protected]$$es i wont tolerate at all and they are well reminded of it by all the signs in the shop.

tools are provided and they have to carry them no questions about it.
incentives are given on a participation basis and apprentices are encouraged to be proactive.
and journeyman are encouraged to develop the talents of the apprentices.
and finally cell phones they can carry them providing that they follow the rules.
I have only dismissed one person in 25 years (abusive alcoholic who refused to get help or stop drinking)


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

New guys who produce more questions, rather than production are gone quickly.

I can't stand a guy who goes out of their way to ask questions that don't concern them or their job at hand, rather than getting the task done right in the time alloted.

Write your question down, and ask at the end of the day.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Helmut said:


> Write your question down, and ask at the end of the day.


keep a notebook and take notes 

i don't mind the questions but i do mind them having to correct mistakes because they didn't ask!
they are taught to do it right the first time


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Essex said:


> Have you thought about things that you could do different?
> 
> Usually if youngsters are disengaged it is due to the mentor not keeping them interested.


Why are you always the opposite of everyone else?

It is NOT our job to keep apprentices "interested". If they are disengaged then it is due to their own lack of self control. This job isn't always interesting, it's not our job to get up and dance for apprentices to make sure that they don't get bored  

Although I do like putting on my dancing shoes :stuart:


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

Not everyone has the ability to teach. I've been in my electrical classes and in the field with these guys. I've always gotten bored when I'm not learning something. Doing the same task over and over can make a helper or apprentice lose interest.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I'm a 2nd year apprentice,with nearly 3 years in the trade. The very first electrical job that I got, they had an unwritten rule to be there 30 minutes or more before work. I would always show up 15 minutes before. I found out the rule once I got fired after only 2 weeks. That was in March of 2014. I didn't get hired by another contractor until September 2014. I worked until an old J-Man who didn't want to tell you something twice. He would explain the things we were doing. I learned a ton from him until I was fired for a lack of experience. He showed me what I needed to do to be a better helper. I learned about the different materials that we use. I started doing jobs until a very young master electrician. He taught me how to troubleshoot and was patient with teaching me. Working with him made me feel like I could finally be an electrician. He didn't have consistent work when I met him, so I went to another company and kept in touch. I started working for another company,but they didn't care about their employees. I did lots of work on my own working for them. I kept building confidence. I got laid off from there and started working for another contractor. This is where I was taught how to implement the electrical code into the work that I'd been doing. The J-Men at this company were impressed by me always being on time and willing to learn. I got fired a few days before Thanksgiving, because they were a very small company, and I was the last one hired. I started working for my present company. This place is very different from any of the previous stops. Everyone in the higher positions are willing to explain everything about the jobs that we're doing. They explain it in a way to keep you interested. We have quite a few guys in their early 20s. They do a great job of explaining to those guys what is expected of them. I've seen the younger guys and myself ( I'm 30 ) get better because of the J-Men that I've been working under. I the best thing you can do is talk to your helpers and apprentice. Let them learn how and why you're doing something this way. Stay on them, telling them to go to school. If they aren't willing to do that, then they aren't serious about this trade. They should treat their tools like it's an investment in their future. A good apprentice would always have their tools with them.



thats the crux of it 
if an apprentice is putting forth the the effort and interest and the journeyman isnt then you have a problem!

quite often there are issues with attitudes and often on the job training may tend to be biased.
its one of the reason i set very high standards on training, and both apprentices and journeyman must adhere to those standards.

quite frankly i would never dismiss an apprentice for lack of knowledge. laziness is another story


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

I disagree. I think it is your job to keep us interested. If you want them to learn you have to keep challenging them. You can't give them one task and get angry once they're standing around waiting for the next task. Even the worst job can be a chance to teach.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

While I did have many great J-man as an apprentice, I also had a a few too many a-holes. These guys would specifically say that they hate apprentices and aren't there to teach us, and would just make our day miserable, which they did. However, even though they weren't willing to answer questions and certainly weren't trying to "keep us interested and engaged", I was still able to learn from every one of them.

The difference is that I wanted to learn and I kept myself interested. Even if I found myself doing the same thing over and over with nothing to learn, I still did my job everyday knowing it was just the means to an end.



ElectricalOJ said:


> I disagree. I think it is your job to keep us interested.


 You can think that way, but you are wrong. I've never heard an apprentice say this before, and find it quite crazy. 



> You can't give them one task and get angry once they're standing around waiting for the next task.


I've said this many times before, the first thing that the JATC director said to us before introducing us to our instructor was that there is ALWAYS something that an apprentice could be doing, and that an apprentice should never be standing around, even when the other guys are. Grab a broom and sweep the floor, go organize material, find something to do since there is always work.

The fact that you choose to stand around after completing a task says way more about you than your J-man.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ElectricalOJ said:


> Not everyone has the ability to teach. I've been in my electrical classes and in the field with these guys. I've always gotten bored when I'm not learning something. Doing the same task over and over can make a helper or apprentice lose interest.


An apprentice could be unboxing and assembling fixtures for days on end. I'm not sure how we make that exciting for him. A job needs to be done on time, efficiently and within budget. That usually means you have guys doing the same boring task over and over again.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> An apprentice could be unboxing and assembling fixtures for days on end. I'm not sure how we make that exciting for him.


I'll teach you how to dance.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I'll teach you how to dance.


Should I wear my tutu?


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

often in the shop after we have replaced a motor or failed component we keep it on the bench for a couple of days and encourage the apprentices to meter it or disassemble it and study it.
with keeping notes. when they discuss their findings with me or my j-men/j-women we discuss possible causes.

there is nothing wrong with having apprentice helpers but there is definitely something wrong if you refuse to teach them because all you want is a slave to do all the dirty work!

we have a sign in the shop " the broom fits everyones hand clean up your own mess"
i take a certain amount of pride in the fact that any one i teach can do the job as well as i can and i can depend on their skills:thumbsup:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

gnuuser said:


> there is nothing wrong with having apprentice helpers but there is definitely something wrong if you refuse to teach them because all you want is a slave to do all the dirty work!


To a point.... If the employer takes the time to teach someone a new task, they usually will not teach that person a newer one, until they perfect the one at hand. They may feel as if they are slaves to one task, but maybe that's really all they are worth..




gnuuser said:


> we have a sign in the shop " the broom fits everyones hand clean up your own mess"


+1:thumbsup:


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

A job is repetitive no matter what it is. I've pulled miles of romex, mc and cat5. Its all boring. Apprentices need to be prepared for boring days/weeks/months as well as getting to do different things occasionally. It comes with the job.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

Unfortunately, apprentices get a lot of "boring" work. It's part of the trade. We all did it on the way up. Some of my work is still boring to me. What I'm looking for in the apprentices that work with me is a positive attitude. I want to see you do that boring work with a sense of urgency and some drive. Show me that you can master assembling that light. Let me see your brain working. The guys that show me that attitude are the first ones that get more responsibility. If you have a bad attitude about the boring work and complain all day, it's going to be a long road for you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't get this thing about young people being lazy always talking on their phones. I had an apprentice who was supposed to be holding an extension ladder for me on a slippery parking lot. I looked down and he was wandering around talking on his phone. Does that make all young people idiots? No, it makes that guy an idiot. He got fired anyway.

I won't tolerate working with guys listening to music with earbuds. I'm not going to waste my time talking to a guy who can't hear me. It's a safety issue anyway. These people grew up with electronic gadgetry, however, and it's up to me to tell them what's acceptable and what isn't.

Rules are rules and they have to be adhered to, young and old. Lighten up on the "young people" stuff. They said the same thing about us when we were twenty years old. 

There is common ground: http://phcnews.com/content/millennials-trades


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## Essex (Feb 4, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Why are you always the opposite of everyone else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In life you can follow or you can think for yourself. I prefer to think for myself. 

If someone does is disengaged I challenge myself first as I consider that I have failed the apprentice. Not the other way around.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I disagree. I think it is your job to keep us interested. If you want them to learn you have to keep challenging them. You can't give them one task and get angry once they're standing around waiting for the next task. Even the worst job can be a chance to teach.


LOL I'd set you straight so fast you'd be chitting blood for a week  

It's not anybody's job to keep you interested, you self absorbed nitwit. It's OUR job to build something for OUR customer. It's MY job to TELL you what to do and PAY you for doing it. NOBODY gives a **** how you FEEL while you're doing it, except YOU. 

You are SUPPOSED to hate work, EVERYBODY hates it so much they won't do it unless someone pays them to do it. You figure out a way to enjoy it, that's GRAVY. But you do it either way, it's a DUTY. 

A good man can find a way to make anything less boring by trying to do the absolute best job in the absolute best time. Take some PRIDE in your performance and it will immediately be less boring. A green goofball like you can learn this by watching a good man work and understanding what's going on. I am deeply in the debt of the squared away cracker jack tradesmen I learned from, back before I was old enough to drive. Pride is PRICELESS. 

A chitbird boss that is deliberately antagonizing their underlings is more unproductive than the underling shuffling around with their hands in their pockets, or leaning against the wall holding up the building. If I find this, they'll be chitting blood for a week too. Just because you argue a lot with your wife, or daddy didn't hug you enough, you're not going to **** up OUR job, it's another nitwit that should keep his feelings to himself. 

A lot of guys you say this to all day and night, some won't get any of it, some it won't ever *quite* sink in ... until they have their first kid? Then being bored is the last thing on their mind, job security, maybe doing a little better, and even being a good example all clicks. 

So if you worked for me I'd make you get pregnant. Is that against any government rules?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I disagree. I think it is your job to keep us interested. If you want them to learn you have to keep challenging them. You can't give them one task and get angry once they're standing around waiting for the next task. Even the worst job can be a chance to teach.


With 46 years in the trade and some of my first apprentices having worked for me or asked to come back and work with me (I ain't a prick and treat apprentices as important assets), I can tell you; YOU ARE DEAD WRONG, if you can't keep yourself engaged as PART OF YOUR JOB, you are a waste of carbon and need to take a hike.

I don't care if I am digging a ditch or testing circuit breakers you should be on your toes asboring knowledge, learning and keeping busy.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Essex said:


> In life you can follow or you can think for yourself. I prefer to think for myself.
> 
> If someone does is disengaged I challenge myself first as I consider that I have failed the apprentice. Not the other way around.


Having worked with 100's of apprentices over the years in an evniroment where you make money for the employer or lose your job, I feel it is the apprentices job to fit the need, not my job to find a nitch to fit him/her in. Get in the groove, get to work and become an electrician.


Listen, follow, learn give me 8 for 8 or go home.

And I have been told many times I/we spoil apprentices.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

brian john said:


> Having worked with 100's of apprentices over the years in an evniroment where you make money for the employer or lose your job, I feel it is the apprentices job to fit the need, not my job to find a nitch to fit him/her in. Get in the groove, get to work and become an electrician.
> 
> 
> Listen, follow, learn give me 8 for 8 or go home.
> ...


Unless you're handing out organic granola bars at snack time, you're just being mean.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Spatz, I love it :thumbup:

Sometimes when I reed threads I feel like I'm all alone in this world, I'm glad to see that I'm not.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Spatz, I love it :thumbup:
> 
> Sometimes when I reed threads I feel like I'm all alone in this world, I'm glad to see that I'm not.


The way these little Kardashians come up today, we really have our work cut out for us keeping these values in tact. If you have to get on a soapbox and rant once in a while to keep them alive, then so be it.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

99cents said:


> ...A job needs to be done on time, efficiently and within budget....


 That is the crux of it.

When I tell our greenies to do a grunt job and get grumbles, that is my answer: "There's no busy work here. It has to get done. Either you do it, or I do it. But if I have to do it there's no reason for you to be here."

To me, the mark of a good apprentice is somebody who can see that bigger picture.

That said, I'm also not above doing grunt work either because it *all* does have to be done, and if I've got nothing going on them that's my job. I've never liked guys who thought they were above certain jobs.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Some people don't understand that the reason you have a job is because you're making someone else money. It doesn't matter if you're working for mom & pop or megacorp, if your employer isn't profitable, you won't have a job. Every job I have ever had has had its boring side and I have done a lot of different things.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

TRurak said:


> A job is repetitive no matter what it is. I've pulled miles of romex, mc and cat5. Its all boring. Apprentices need to be prepared for boring days/weeks/months as well as getting to do different things occasionally. It comes with the job.


I have tested circuit breakers for 3 months straight, day after day after day, seems very interesting when you first do this job but when every day you arrange an outage, one guys pulls them one guy test, next day he pulls you test. 


Being a proctologist gets boring when you see a-hole after a-hole day after day.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Who in the hell shows up thirty minutes early to work? If you are there one minute before starting time, you are on time.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kg7879 said:


> Who in the hell shows up thirty minutes early to work? If you are there one minute before starting time, you are on time.


That's fine, as long as you are never, ever late.

But if you are ever late, saying that there was traffic is no excuse since you should be leaving early enough every morning to get to work on time even if you hit traffic.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> Who in the hell shows up thirty minutes early to work? If you are there one minute before starting time, you are on time.


You have never lived in LA, NYC, Washington DC or other major traffic jam city, you have to give it at least 20-40 minutes lea way everyday or you will be consistently late and at the point you are unemployed.

Typically most employees here are 15-20 minutes early, some longer and take a 20 minute or so nap.

Important meetings depending on the distance I'll give myself 30-60 minutes extra time and even then I have been late


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've worked with guys who liked to play the "on-time is late" bullchit game. If you're there by the time you were told to be there, then you've completely fulfilled your obligation. Further, if you expect me to be 30 minutes early every day, then I'm gonna have 2.5 hours of OT at the end of the week.

I don't have patients for that nonsense: Say what you mean, mean what you say.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Big John said:


> I've worked with guys who liked to play the "on-time is late" bullchit game. If you're there by the time you were told to be there, then you've completely fulfilled your obligation. Further, if you expect me to be 30 minutes early every day, then I'm gonna have 2.5 hours of OT at the end of the week.
> 
> I don't have patients for that nonsense: Say what you mean, mean what you say.


In my experience, all of the guys who arrived at the job right on time were the same guys who were late every time there was an accident on one of the highways or major roadways. And being late is unacceptable, traffic is no excuse.


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## WIsparky71 (Mar 7, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's fine, as long as you are never, ever late.
> 
> But if you are ever late, saying that there was traffic is no excuse since you should be leaving early enough every morning to get to work on time even if you hit traffic.


Very true. One of our young guys didn't think it was right for me to get upset for him for being 5 minutes late. (He's usually pretty good about being on time.) I'll give a guy a benefit of a doubt once in a while, but what bothered me is that he was holding a coffee cup and breakfast sandwich from the local gas station, and walked in like it was no big deal. It's not my fault you didn't get up early enough for breakfast. What you do on your time is none of my business, but if you're late doing it I have a problem.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WIsparky71 said:


> Very true. One of our young guys didn't think it was right for me to get upset for him for being 5 minutes late. (He's usually pretty good about being on time.) I'll give a guy a benefit of a doubt once in a while, but what bothered me is that he was holding a coffee cup and breakfast sandwich from the local gas station, and walked in like it was no big deal. It's not my fault you didn't get up early enough for breakfast. What you do on your time is none of my business, but if you're late doing it I have a problem.


I agree with this completely.

Now on the other hand, when one of the guys who is always out there early for work ends up being late, I don't mind. I know that there must have been a big problem to make him late since he is always early, so I give him the benefit of the doubt without even questioning him.

If you don't want to show up to work early to make sure that you are there on time everyday, there are probably 100+ other guys who will. 

In the union world that I lived in for the beginning of my career, this is one of the differences between the guys who work 2,000+ hours every year and the guys who get to sit the bench for 2 year at a time.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I need my experience, all of the guys who arrived at the job right on time were the same guys who were late every time there was an accident on one of the highways or major roadways. And being late is unacceptable, traffic is no excuse.


And if they're consistently late they go down the road just like they would for any other performance problem; that don't justify the foolishness of requiring guys to be early. On time is exactly that.


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## NC Plc (Mar 24, 2014)

Big John said:


> "There's no busy work here. It has to get done. Either you do it, or I do it. But if I have to do it there's no reason for you to be here."


I like it.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Big John said:


> And if they're consistently late they go down the road just like they would for any other performance problem; that don't justify the foolishness of requiring guys to be early. On time is exactly that.


You are missing the point. No one here ever said that they require guys to be early.

Other than the once in a million time that someone lives close to a job, everyone else needs to show up early or else they will often be late. 

You can't have it both ways, if you show up right on time everyday, you will be late every time there is even 5 minutes worth of traffic.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You are missing the point. No one here ever said that they require guys to be early...


 No, you're missing the point because I'm clearly talking about bosses who require their guys to be early.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Big John said:


> No, you're missing the point because I'm clearly talking about bosses who require their guys to be early.


When has that happened?


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

splatz said:


> LOL I'd set you straight so fast you'd be chitting blood for a week
> 
> It's not anybody's job to keep you interested, you self absorbed nitwit. It's OUR job to build something for OUR customer. It's MY job to TELL you what to do and PAY you for doing it. NOBODY gives a **** how you FEEL while you're doing it, except YOU.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be working at any place where I wasn't learning everyday. We're all adults in the field. If you don't like my work, I'd be fired. If I don't like your lack of teaching, I can quit. I'm not sure where you live, but I have many opportunities in this trade where I live. I've never heard anyone tell me that I'm supposed to hate work. You must have an awful life.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Big John said:
> 
> 
> > No, you're missing the point because I'm clearly talking about bosses who require their guys to be early.
> ...


It was expected of me for a year and a half. I gave an hour a day. 1/2 hour on the morning, 1/2 hour on the evening. Such is the life of a jobber. My boss wanted the van leaving the driveway by 8:00AM. That meant receiving your stack of workorders and loading the van at 7:30 and not returning until 4:30. It usually took another 30 minutes to down load your day and fill out remaining work orders. 

It sucks but what are you gunna do?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I've never heard anyone tell me that I'm supposed to hate work. You must have an awful life.


 I think that was an exaggeration, but his point still stands:


ElectricalOJ said:


> ...I think it is your job to keep us interested....


 This seems like a serious misunderstanding of workplace responsibilities: 

It's your responsibility to dig in when you're told to dig in so the job gets done. If you learn from it, that's ideal, because it produces good future electricians. But keeping you interested is basically non-existent on the Priority List. I will never deliberately quash somebody's interest because I recognize the value of good moral, but it's certainly not my job to nurse them along.

Sometimes work sucks. It will often suck extra when you're green and your contribution is mostly brawn instead of brains.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cabletie said:


> It was expected of me for a year and a half. I gave an hour a day. 1/2 hour on the morning, 1/2 hour on the evening. Such is the life of a jobber. My boss wanted the van leaving the driveway by 8:00AM. That meant receiving your stack of workorders and loading the van at 7:30 and not returning until 4:30. It usually took another 30 minutes to down load your day and fill out remaining work orders.
> 
> It sucks but what are you gunna do?


That's a whole different situation. I thought you were union??


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## TRurak (Apr 10, 2016)

cabletie said:


> It was expected of me for a year and a half. I gave an hour a day. 1/2 hour on the morning, 1/2 hour on the evening. Such is the life of a jobber. My boss wanted the van leaving the driveway by 8:00AM. That meant receiving your stack of workorders and loading the van at 7:30 and not returning until 4:30. It usually took another 30 minutes to down load your day and fill out remaining work orders.
> 
> It sucks but what are you gunna do?


If I had employees I wouldn't feel right asking them to load the van on their own time. It doesn't seem right.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

HackWork said:


> cabletie said:
> 
> 
> > It was expected of me for a year and a half. I gave an hour a day. 1/2 hour on the morning, 1/2 hour on the evening. Such is the life of a jobber. My boss wanted the van leaving the driveway by 8:00AM. That meant receiving your stack of workorders and loading the van at 7:30 and not returning until 4:30. It usually took another 30 minutes to down load your day and fill out remaining work orders.
> ...



I had just got in after five years non union. This was for a NECA contractor that was on the apprentice board and the board of trustees. The hall's stance was employees should be at work and ready ten minuites before the shift. No work should be done before that. Then the BA said "Do what you have to do kid, but I got no work for you down here". 

I sucked it up then got laid off six months later. Got re-hired six months later. Been with them ever since. I still go out in a van from time to time.


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## darren79 (Dec 20, 2011)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I'm a 2nd year apprentice,with nearly 3 years in the trade. The very first electrical job that I got, they had an unwritten rule to be there 30 minutes or more before work. I would always show up 15 minutes before. I found out the rule once I got fired after only 2 weeks.


I hope there is more reason to being fired than not showing up 30 minutes before work. If he is not paying you for that 30 minutes whats the point of sitting around work on your own dime.

As long as your at work with tools on and ready to work, who cares what time you show up.

My pet peeve are the ones that show up 5 or 10 minutes late on most morning, I don't understand why they don't leave 15 minutes earlier to be 5 or 10 minutes early.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

HackWork said:


> You are missing the point. No one here ever said that they require guys to be early.
> 
> Other than the once in a million time that someone lives close to a job, everyone else needs to show up early or else they will often be late.
> 
> You can't have it both ways, if you show up right on time everyday, you will be late every time there is even 5 minutes worth of traffic.


I was referring to a comment on this thread who stated there was an unspoken rule to show up thirty minutes early. If you are being judged whether you are in the parking lot, job trailer, or the gang box thirty minutes before start time then I think that is BS. 

Starting time is starting time and if someone chooses to gamble every day on catching green lights then so be it.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

cabletie said:


> I had just got in after five years non union. This was for a NECA contractor that was on the apprentice board and the board of trustees. The hall's stance was employees should be at work and ready ten minuites before the shift. No work should be done before that. Then the BA said "Do what you have to do kid, but I got no work for you down here".
> 
> I sucked it up then got laid off six months later. Got re-hired six months later. Been with them ever since. I still go out in a van from time to time.


Typically in my local, it is in on your time and out on theirs, but it really depends on the contractor and GF or superintendent if it is a bigger job


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Big John said:


> And if they're consistently late they go down the road just like they would for any other performance problem; that don't justify the foolishness of requiring guys to be early. On time is exactly that.


We do not require anyone to be early, it is just the prudent employees realize with the traffic we face everyday they realize to allow a buffer.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

In all seriousness, I go by improvement. If a guy makes no improvement in his work quality, taking direction, or habits he's done.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

darren79 said:


> I hope there is more reason to being fired than not showing up 30 minutes before work. If he is not paying you for that 30 minutes whats the point of sitting around work on your own dime.
> 
> As long as your at work with tools on and ready to work, who cares what time you show up.
> 
> My pet peeve are the ones that show up 5 or 10 minutes late on most morning, I don't understand why they don't leave 15 minutes earlier to be 5 or 10 minutes early.


I've worked for 2 companies that wanted their employees there 30 minutes early. I'm already getting up super early to travel to your shop or location in dc,MD, or va. I've had talks with those contractors before they sent me packing about that issue. I hate that I wasted time at those places. If you say what is expected of me before I take the job, I have a better chance of being a great part of the team, or I'd reject the offer if I don't like your rules.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

darren79 said:


> I hope there is more reason to being fired than not showing up 30 minutes before work. If he is not paying you for that 30 minutes whats the point of sitting around work on your own dime.
> 
> As long as your at work with tools on and ready to work, who cares what time you show up.
> 
> My pet peeve are the ones that show up 5 or 10 minutes late on most morning, I don't understand why they don't leave 15 minutes earlier to be 5 or 10 minutes early.


I have been let go before for a lack of experience. That was later in that year. Whenever I applied to a contractor back then, I made sure to not lie on my resume and I always stated that I'm here to learn and work. I would always tell them that I didn't have any experience but I'm willing to learn if they're willing to teach. I'd ask how did they feel their J-Men did at teaching. I didn't want to waste my time or theirs. I have a great work ethic and I learn pretty fast. I've never had anyone call me lazy or a bad worker.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

By your prior posts of expecting journeymen to keep you interested as part of their job, I am willing to bet your work ethic isn't as good as you think and you keep getting fired for other reasons than what you are saying.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I wouldn't be working at any place where I wasn't learning everyday. We're all adults in the field. If you don't like my work, I'd be fired. If I don't like your lack of teaching, I can quit. I'm not sure where you live, but I have many opportunities in this trade where I live. I've never heard anyone tell me that I'm supposed to hate work. You must have an awful life.


Doesn't even get over the top humourous hyperbole? LOL there may be another reason this one has trouble learning. Wait, he probably didn't get that either... 

OJ, I AM SAYING YOU ARE DENSE, BUT I DON'T REALLY MEAN IT, THIS IS CALLED BUSTING YOUR BALLS AND IT IS SOMETHING MEN DO. 

Of course these little Kardashians only get a joke if it's in large letters on a photo. 

Somebody go get this kid pregnant.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Rarely is the guy who pulls up to the job at the exact time actually ready to work, and that is the point for me.

When I say to be at the job at 8:00 AM, that means ready to work at 8:00 AM.
Not pull up at 8:02 with the music on your phone playing (huge pet peeve), drinking coffee and texting.

You can say its unfair to be required to be early, but we all know this is the guy who routinely shows up right on time (or late).


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> In all seriousness, I go by improvement. If a guy makes no improvement in his work quality, taking direction, or habits he's done.


Absolute DITTOS. :thumbsup:

In such a situation, nothing is sticking. :001_unsure:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Barjack said:


> Rarely is the guy who pulls up to the job at the exact time actually ready to work, and that is the point for me.
> 
> When I say to be at the job at 8:00 AM, that means ready to work at 8:00 AM.
> Not pull up at 8:02 with the music on your phone playing (huge pet peeve), drinking coffee and texting.
> ...



+1..:thumbsup:

I expect everyone to show up early for work. It doesn't matterr if it's 5 minutes, or one hour, it's up to you. If you're the kind of guy who shows up with a fresh coffee in your hand, who needs to converse about last nights TV shows or what happened in the world, and the kind of guy who shows up to wwork and the first thing you do if use the bathroom for a half hour, you need to show up real early, cause production time starts at 8. Tools on, head straight. There is no showing up at 7:59.

Now if you can hop out of your car at 7:55, be on site ready for the briefing with tools on, and bowels empty at 8, I'll leave you alone.


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## OldMasterTech (Mar 12, 2014)

HackWork said:


> By your prior posts of expecting journeymen to keep you interested as part of their job, I am willing to bet your work ethic isn't as good as you think and you keep getting fired for other reasons than what you are saying.


I'll add to that as an employer in Massachusetts you are employed at my will and I need no reason to terminate your employment, however when I do I usually give the individual no reason or a generic reason for termination. So Hack is absolutely correct, you were most probably terminated for a reason that you may never know!


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

Had a guy working for me in Texas told him I wanted him at the gate at 07:00 .He told me but the office said 07:30 I told first off you are working for me and not the office. Now look at it like this . If work time is at 07:30 and you show up at 07:10 what can I say to you he replied nothing ( you are correct ) if you show up at 07:40 what can I say ,Iwould be in trouble (you are correct). Then he told me I unberstand.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Barjack said:


> Rarely is the guy who pulls up to the job at the exact time actually ready to work, and that is the point for me.
> 
> When I say to be at the job at 8:00 AM, that means ready to work at 8:00 AM.
> Not pull up at 8:02 with the music on your phone playing (huge pet peeve), drinking coffee and texting.
> ...


Agreed.

With the type of work that I do now (resi service) I like to allow the guys to go right to the job to save them time when it's going to be a full day job, but I hate when they get out of their truck at start time and take another 10 minutes getting ready. If I tell the customer 8AM I want to be able to ring their bell at 8AM and walk in to start work.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

HackWork said:


> By your prior posts of expecting journeymen to keep you interested as part of their job, I am willing to bet your work ethic isn't as good as you think and you keep getting fired for other reasons than what you are saying.


I'll let you think whatever you want to think. Both of my parents and other family members set an example of always being to work on time,and working hard no matter what. Even if you don't like the job, my father told me to do that job like you have a whole family depending on you. Nobody else I know brings their school books to read before working,to study the NEC. I want to be great at this trade. I will be great.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I'll let you think whatever you want to think. Both of my parents and other family members set an example of always being to work on time,and working hard no matter what. Even if you don't like the job, my father told me to do that job like you have a whole family depending on you. Nobody else I know brings their school books to read before working,to study the NEC. I want to be great at this trade. I will be great.


 You just posted a lot of bravado considering you're the same person who said you would quit a job if the journeyman wasn't interesting enough for you. 

Is that how you act like your whole family is depending on you?


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> ElectricalOJ said:
> 
> 
> > I'll let you think whatever you want to think. Both of my parents and other family members set an example of always being to work on time,and working hard no matter what. Even if you don't like the job, my father told me to do that job like you have a whole family depending on you. Nobody else I know brings their school books to read before working,to study the NEC. I want to be great at this trade. I will be great.
> ...


You're just a big bully, Hax. He's the best apprentice ever. Just ask him.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

[QUOTEHe's the best apprentice ever. Just ask him.[/QUOTE]


Hahaha. 

I've noticed a generational thing that's been happening where they've been coached up through school to say the right thing. Some of the less desirable apprentices I've had would say all the right things but there was very little follow through in practice. 

The most recent apprentice I employed was a good guy, punctual, exhibited decent customer interaction but was a mediocre worker. All things I was willing to work with. 

When there were times that were teachable moments or we had to have a pep talk to coach him up on what my expectations are, he was agreeable and said all the right things to make me think I would see an improvement. 

However, the changes were not (reliably) demonstrated in practice. 

I feel like this millennial generation has been taught all the catch phrases and mantras that will lead to success but they seem to be missing the ability follow through and be held accountable.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

HackWork said:


> You just posted a lot of bravado considering you're the same person who said you would quit a job if the journeyman wasn't interesting enough for you.
> 
> Is that how you act like your whole family is depending on you?


I stick by what I said. If I'm not learning how to be a better electrician by working under the guys who are supposed to be teaching me, I need to find a new fit with someone who will teach. At the same time I need to do the best that I can do on my own until I do find a new contractor. I may not have been in the trade long but I've listened to stories of why people have become some of the best electricians or left the trade all together. Everyone has a different road to get their fit in the many phases of the electrical trade. Some are harder than others. As for me working as if my whole family is depending on me, this is true. I have a wife that's been with me with me through the terrible times and the greatest times. I can't be a failure for her. One of my sisters die a few years ago. She left 3 children when she died of cancer. I promised myself that I would do whatever is necessary to make sure they have the things they need for the future.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I stick by what I said. If I'm not learning how to be a better electrician by working under the guys who are supposed to be teaching me, I need to find a new fit with someone who will teach. At the same time I need to do the best that I can do on my own until I do find a new contractor. I may not have been in the trade long but I've listened to stories of why people have become some of the best electricians or left the trade all together. Everyone has a different road to get their fit in the many phases of the electrical trade. Some are harder than others. As for me working as if my whole family is depending on me, this is true. I have a wife that's been with me with me through the terrible times and the greatest times. I can't be a failure for her. One of my sisters die a few years ago. She left 3 children when she died of cancer. I promised myself that I would do whatever is necessary to make sure they have the things they need for the future.


Quitting because your journeyman isn't interesting is the furthest thing from what you are saying in this post.

What you don't seem to realize is that we have all been in your shoes. We know what it's like. And yes, there are going to be times when you are bored out of your mind, but you have to endure it and stick it out. 

There are going to be times when you work for a-holes who don't care about teaching you, and you still have to stick it out. As I said earlier, you can learn from anybody, whether they are trying to teach you or not.

Or, you can just quit like you said you would. 

Your goal should be, even as an apprentice, to make the contractor money. My father taught me that before I started my first day. If you do that, everything else will fall into place. Learning as an apprentice is secondary, you are being paid to produce, and sometimes that production has to be raised and your learning comes to a halt.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Quitting because your journeyman isn't interesting is the furthest thing from what you are saying in this post.
> 
> What you don't seem to realize is that we have all been in your shoes. We know what it's like. And yes, there are going to be times when you are bored out of your mind, but you have to endure it and stick it out.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you said. If I don't make the contractor money, I'm not useful. If I'm out there breaking stuff or not being productive,there's no need for them to keep me around. There's still times to have a teaching moment everyday at work. I will admit that I don't learn some everyday from my J-Man. I ask him about articles that I've read. I do ask about his experiences in the trade when he's done a specific type of job. I ask one question a day about a different type of service, but he isn't my only avenue to learn the trade. There are many days where I'm just reading code articles, doing calculations, learning the different ways to use materials, or even reading on here. I'm blessed to have all the technology that I have to learn this trade. I will never feel like learning is secondary.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I agree with most of what you said. If I don't make the contractor money, I'm not useful. If I'm out there breaking stuff or not being productive,there's no need for them to keep me around. There's still times to have a teaching moment everyday at work. I will admit that I don't learn some everyday from my J-Man. I ask him about articles that I've read. I do ask about his experiences in the trade when he's done a specific type of job. I ask one question a day about a different type of service, but he isn't my only avenue to learn the trade. There are many days where I'm just reading code articles, doing calculations, learning the different ways to use materials, or even reading on here. I'm blessed to have all the technology that I have to learn this trade. I will never feel like learning is secondary.


Learning may be your first goal in life itself. But when it comes to your job, it most certainly is secondary.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Learning may be your first goal in life itself. But when it comes to your job, it most certainly is secondary.


I don't think I can afford work in this trade and not learn. I'd be no different from these other nothing electricians out here without their licenses. If I'm spending my time and money learning a trade, I will learn everyday. You can't get a license without having a job and learning. I think they're equally important. Do you agree with that?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I don't think I can afford work in this trade and not learn. I'd be no different from these other nothing electricians out here without their licenses. If I'm spending my time and money learning a trade, I will learn everyday. You can't get a license without having a job and learning. I think they're equally important. Do you agree with that?


No, I don't. I think you already know everything so there is no point.


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## Blitzer (Oct 12, 2016)

I thought a guy through his apprenticeship, he had attitude but he slowly learned to show some respect. I was patient with him and would show him anything he wanted to know. Towards the end of his apprenticeship he started getting cocky and told me that I hadn't taught him anything and he did it on his own. He started not listening. Doing things his own way as a 'big boy', then cry like a baby for help when it wouldn't work out. D-bag and a waist of my time. I should have taken action on my first thoughts of him. Trust that little voice in your head that tells you things about apprentices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

Blitzer said:


> I thought a guy through his apprenticeship, he had attitude but he slowly learned to show some respect. I was patient with him and would show him anything he wanted to know. Towards the end of his apprenticeship he started getting cocky and told me that I hadn't taught him anything and he did it on his own. He started not listening. Doing things his own way as a 'big boy', then cry like a baby for help when it wouldn't work out. D-bag and a waist of my time. I should have taken action on my first thoughts of him. Trust that little voice in your head that tells you things about apprentices.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your story sounds just like Rocky V. It's always terrible when you do so much for someone and then they act like you never did anything for them.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I don't think I can afford work in this trade and not learn. I'd be no different from these other nothing electricians out here without their licenses. If I'm spending my time and money learning a trade, I will learn everyday. You can't get a license without having a job and learning. I think they're equally important. Do you agree with that?


Here's the deal

As an apprentice you are there to learn, ask questions, show up on time and do as you are told, assist in making me money, I do appreciate some input from apprentices BUT, one that becomes a PIA, cocky, a know it all, late or just an nuisance then I do not need you.

Good apprentices generally ask to come back after they finish their time in the union program, good ones are hired, nuisance ones are told we are not taking men on at this time.

WHICH ONE ARE YOU?


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## Blitzer (Oct 12, 2016)

ElectricalOJ said:


> Your story sounds just like Rocky V. It's always terrible when you do so much for someone and then they act like you never did anything for them.



I know, it's terrible. I helped him out with some tools he didn't have. Went with him to show him which tools to buy and where to get some deals. Sent him links for good deals. Taught him tricks of the trade and code. Showed him how to plan out a job, it's like he was a baby brother who spat in my face. I can see how older guys get really grouchy and mean, I'm not turning into one of those guys but I'm more careful about who I invest my time/energy and money into.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

ElectricalOJ said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > Learning may be your first goal in life itself. But when it comes to your job, it most certainly is secondary.
> ...


I think you dont even know what you dont know. It aint sinking in that your primary job is to earn your boss money, not to learn how to be an electrician. Remember, you have to learn how to be an electrician first before you learn how to be a better electrician. I know this post is worthless, because you already think you know what Im getting at, but Im posting it anyways.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

brian john said:


> Here's the deal
> 
> As an apprentice you are there to learn, ask questions, show up on time and do as you are told, assist in making me money, I do appreciate some input from apprentices BUT, one that becomes a PIA, cocky, a know it all, late or just an nuisance then I do not need you.
> 
> ...


I'm not in the union, so that part doesn't apply to me. Once I pass the test to get my journeyman's license, life changes for the better for my family and I.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I'm not in the union, so that part doesn't apply to me. Once I pass the test to get my journeyman's license, life changes for the better for my family and I.


Shame you are NOT in the union, if you were when you finished your apprenticeship, life would really change for your family, unless you are fortunate enough to work for the few open shop firms that pay top wages and bennies in Wash DC.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

brian john said:


> Shame you are NOT in the union, if you were when you finished your apprenticeship, life would really change for your family, unless you are fortunate enough to work for the few open shop firms that pay top wages and bennies in Wash DC.


I only tried to join the union once. I had no references and the Truland stuff had just gone down. Maybe a time will come after I get my license,that I will reapply. I still have no union references though.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I am on the side of common sense.
Sometimes a guy will be late. It happens. Its the frequency that I would look at.
How long at the end of the day, does it take for a guy to get OT?

I know working for one company, I was chastised for being late a couple times.
Thing is, no one gave me a pat on the back or even a thank you for all the days I worked over for a little bit without pay.
The rule was you had to work over at least 15 minutes to get compensation for it. Then you got 1/2 hour compensation. 14 minutes, no compensation. We had a time clock there.

You have to look at people as individuals. I agree we must all have a set of rules to follow. And to be consistent.
But ask yourself this. Your guy works late several days a week. Not very long. 5-10-15 minutes and never expected one cent for it.
Yet he shows up late one day and gets wrote up.
We must look at the big picture.

I told the story here before about my wife driving to work on a very wintry day. Ice and snowing all night.
It was only her and a couple others that made it in that day.

Guess what? She was 1-2 minutes late and they wrote her up.
The ones that did not show up at all were given the option of taking a vacation day.
Now that is a very good example of how looking at the big picture is important.
The next time your guy (who will work a little over, but not expect compensation) shows up a little late, ask yourself, does this guy really deserve a "talking too"?

Its not written in stone. Nothing is written in stone unless you believe in the magic stone tablets.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I only tried to join the union once. I had no references and the Truland stuff had just gone down. Maybe a time will come after I get my license,that I will reapply. I still have no union references though.


Oh, I know all about Truland they were a customer of mine, cost me a few bucks when they folded. We work as a sub to many electrical contractors in the Wash DC metro area.


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## Blitzer (Oct 12, 2016)

I kind of haves problem with contractors not paying their guys when at the shop in the morning. I mean everyone is working, loading up, looking at drawings, planning the day... you should get paid the moment you get out of your car and start doing something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

Blitzer said:


> I kind of haves problem with contractors not paying their guys when at the shop in the morning. I mean everyone is working, loading up, looking at drawings, planning the day... you should get paid the moment you get out of your car and start doing something.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't like that either. There are lots of companies out in dc,md,and va that do that.


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## LightsOn81 (Jan 6, 2012)

Great stuff! 

I love teaching the trade. I'm young but I caught on and I love giving a person the ability to make decent money. My last few apprentices were rock stars. They at least acted interested, focused on what's in front of them and I even tolerated some smart mouth. (I dish it so I got to take it.) my former Apprenticeship instructor tells these guys that I'm the one you want to learn from. Guys that I've run off that have come back around tell others "I hated him then but I realize he (me) was trying to teach the right way"

Soooooo.......

I decided to say nothing except what I want done, stop safety violations, stop screw ups and when his instructor calls for his evaluation I'm gonna cook this self entitled kid. I'm gonna fry him.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

LightsOn81 said:


> Great stuff!
> 
> I love teaching the trade. I'm young but I caught on and I love giving a person the ability to make decent money. My last few apprentices were rock stars. They at least acted interested, focused on what's in front of them and I even tolerated some smart mouth. (I dish it so I got to take it.) my former Apprenticeship instructor tells these guys that I'm the one you want to learn from. Guys that I've run off that have come back around tell others "I hated him then but I realize he (me) was trying to teach the right way"
> 
> ...


We need more teachers out there like you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

My first job as a starter lasted about two weeks before I was fired. The company owner, however, lined me up with a bigger company and I found my feet working with a crew. Sometimes there's just a mismatch between a journeyman and an apprentice. It doesn't mean you don't have a quality guy, it just means it's not working.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

99cents said:


> My first job as a starter lasted about two weeks before I was fired. The company owner, however, lined me up with a bigger company and I found my feet working with a crew. Sometimes there's just a mismatch between a journeyman and an apprentice. It doesn't mean you don't have a quality guy, it just means it's not working.


That makes all the sense in the world. I wish I had heard this a few years ago


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

ElectricalOJ said:


> That makes all the sense in the world. I wish I had heard this a few years ago


Funny how one phone call can change a guy's life. If that guy hadn't of phoned and got me in with a company that suited me better, I can almost guarantee I would have found something different to do than electrical work.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Funny how one phone call can change a guy's life. If that guy hadn't of phoned and got me in with a company that suited me better, I can almost guarantee I would have found something different to do than electrical work.


I know, there was a guy like that in my life, if he's still alive and I ever find him I am going to kick his wrinkled ass.


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## skittles (Mar 18, 2016)

99cents said:


> My first job as a starter lasted about two weeks before I was fired. The company owner, however, lined me up with a bigger company and I found my feet working with a crew. Sometimes there's just a mismatch between a journeyman and an apprentice. It doesn't mean you don't have a quality guy, it just means it's not working.


Sounds a bit like my first job in the trade. 
I was about 2/3 of the way done with my 1 year trade school course. I got in with a small company and the first job they put me on wad commercial. It could have been a good job for me, but it was just am awful match between my j-man and me. He was a drunk who would literally disappear for an hour or two at a time after leaving me with only one or two things to do. And I still had way more to learn before I was ready for the field. It was just a bad mix. 
Needless to say I wasn't terribly surprised when I was told after one week that I wasn't catching on. I didn't get the new job lined up got me though lol that would have been nice. But eh, it all worked out later.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

skittles said:


> Sounds a bit like my first job in the trade.
> I was about 2/3 of the way done with my 1 year trade school course. I got in with a small company and the first job they put me on wad commercial. It could have been a good job for me, but it was just am awful match between my j-man and me. He was a drunk who would literally disappear for an hour or two at a time after leaving me with only one or two things to do. And I still had way more to learn before I was ready for the field. It was just a bad mix.
> Needless to say I wasn't terribly surprised when I was told after one week that I wasn't catching on. I didn't get the new job lined up got me though lol that would have been nice. But eh, it all worked out later.


Wow, I never knew there were more people who started out in my situation.


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## Sparky Mcgregor (Sep 7, 2015)

MechanicalDVR said:


> 15 minutes early is on time was the standard at one time and it worked well.


That's silly, if they want people fifteen minutes earlier they should just schedule it and pay their employees for their time. 5 minutes early is plenty and right on time should be perfectly acceptable.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Even when I punched a clock, I was always at minimum 20 minutes early.
Enough time to get a cup of coffee and shoot the **** with the guys for a few minutes.
I have always arrived early.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Even when I punched a clock, I was always at minimum 20 minutes early.
> Enough time to get a cup of coffee and shoot the **** with the guys for a few minutes.
> I have always arrived early.


We learned from a far different generation than the younger guys of today. :thumbsup:


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> Even when I punched a clock, I was always at minimum 20 minutes early.
> Enough time to get a cup of coffee and shoot the **** with the guys for a few minutes.
> I have always arrived early.


What kills me is the guys who don't want to give a minute of their time up without getting paid for it so they roll in at 6:58 and then want to get chatty? Huh? It's time to work now...!


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Cow said:


> What kills me is the guys who don't want to give a minute of their time up without getting paid for it so they roll in at 6:58 and then want to get chatty? Huh? It's time to work now...!




I won't do a minute of anything work related before or after I punch in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Biscuits said:


> I won't do a minute of anything work related before or after I punch in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, you're telling me you get paid but don't actually do anything all day. Okay.:blink:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Cow said:


> So, you're telling me you get paid but don't actually do anything all day. Okay.:blink:




Bingo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

Biscuits said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And gravy was his name o. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Cow said:


> What kills me is the guys who don't want to give a minute of their time up without getting paid for it so they roll in at 6:58 and then want to get chatty? Huh? It's time to work now...!


I have yet to work anywhere where they started immediately at starting time. Never once. But I do get your point.
There were meetings when I worked in manufacturing and crew meetings and BS talk before work on job sites.
But, If I was like you and had customers to keep happy, if I said 8:00 am, I meant 8:00 am.



zac said:


> And gravy was his name o.


:lol:


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## Sparky Mcgregor (Sep 7, 2015)

John Valdes said:


> Even when I punched a clock, I was always at minimum 20 minutes early.
> Enough time to get a cup of coffee and shoot the **** with the guys for a few minutes.
> I have always arrived early.


I'm drawing a distinction between arriving early and starting early. If you want to arrive early for a little social interaction great but I would argue getting an extra 20 min sleep is equally admirable since you're not spending those 20min servicing the company. I have an hour commute to work each day and compensating for traffic is too difficult to get exact each time. Sometimes I'm early, sometimes I'm right on time and occasionally I'm even a little late and my employer couldn't be happier with me, for the simple fact that I do good work while I'm here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sparky Mcgregor said:


> I'm drawing a distinction between arriving early and starting early. If you want to arrive early for a little social interaction great but I would argue getting an extra 20 min sleep is equally admirable since you're not spending those 20min servicing the company. I have an hour commute to work each day and compensating for traffic is too difficult to get exact each time. Sometimes I'm early, sometimes I'm right on time and occasionally I'm even a little late and my employer couldn't be happier with me, for the simple fact that I do good work while I'm here.


That is completely unacceptable. You knowingly come in late because you won't leave early enough to compensate for traffic.

Just because your current boss is a pushover and allows this behavior, it doesn't make it right.

BTW, the "20 minute of extra sleep makes me better" excuse is literally what I would expect from an 18 year old kid.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> That is completely unacceptable. You knowingly come in late because you won't leave early enough to compensate for traffic.
> 
> Just because your current boss is a pushover and allows this behavior, it doesn't make it right.
> 
> BTW, the "20 minute of extra sleep makes me better" excuse is literally what I would expect from an 18 year old kid.


 
I had an excellent worker that was always late, his excuse was I do more in 6 hours that most men do in 8, I told him fine do it for your self. I let him go and he started his own company flipping houses.

Seems to be doing OK though I am told some of the agents he works with get miffed waiting for him in the AM.


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## Sparky Mcgregor (Sep 7, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That is completely unacceptable. You knowingly come in late because you won't leave early enough to compensate for traffic.
> 
> Just because your current boss is a pushover and allows this behavior, it doesn't make it right.
> 
> BTW, the "20 minute of extra sleep makes me better" excuse is literally what I would expect from an 18 year old kid.


You couldn't have read what I wrote very closely if that's what you got from it. Clearly it is acceptable since both parties are pleased and punch by the arrangement. My boss isn't a push over, he's simply aware of what sort of things have real world impact on the productivity of the business. I do compensate for traffic which is why I'm frequently early, but I commute on one of the busiest highway's in the world. Logic dictates that the only way to compensate for traffic exactly would require some unreasonably large leeway times and my boss is aware of this. He's even late himself sometimes for the exact same reason. It's this kind of attitude that makes the work place such a miserable experience for so many people. People aren't productive unless every waking moment of their shift they're pushing themselves to the limit of exhaustion? I also never said 20 minutes extra sleep makes me better. I said sleeping an extra 20 minutes is just as admirable as standing around drinking coffee and yapping about BS with your co-workers.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So your boss is a pushover because he is late too. It's still unacceptable anywhere else. I live in the densest state with the worst highways, I have left my house 2.5 hours early at times to make sure that was always at the job on time. Some people just have better work ethics.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

One of the last times I had a legitimate job, I walked in at 8:00 sharp (second day on the job) and they were just wrapping up the safety meeting. I got fired the next day.

I'm unemployable. That's why I'm in business  .

No pay me for safety meeting, me no go to safety meeting.


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## Sparky Mcgregor (Sep 7, 2015)

HackWork said:


> So your boss is a pushover because he is late too. It's still unacceptable anywhere else. I live in the densest state with the worst highways, I have left my house 2.5 hours early at times to make sure that was always at the job on time. Some people just have better work ethics.


"unacceptable anywhere else" is a pretty bold statement given how many types of businesses there are. Leaving my home every single day an hour earlier just to stop myself from being five minutes late from time to time just seems insane to me. If a company every wanted me to do that they'd either have to be paying me really well or I would only comply till such time that I could find another job. I put too much value on my time to squander it in order to satisfy silly expectations derived of purpose. I give an extra 20min drive time each day. Anything delays beyond that time period I consider out of my hands. Those people who are willing to live their life constantly in fear of being a few minutes late can have their superior work ethics.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Sparky Mcgregor said:


> "unacceptable anywhere else" is a pretty bold statement given how many types of businesses there are. Leaving my home every single day an hour earlier just to stop myself from being five minutes late from time to time just seems insane to me. If a company every wanted me to do that they'd either have to be paying me really well or I would only comply till such time that I could find another job. I put too much value on my time to squander it in order to satisfy silly expectations derived of purpose. I give an extra 20min drive time each day. Anything delays beyond that time period I consider out of my hands. Those people who are willing to live their life constantly in fear of being a few minutes late can have their superior work ethics.


"If a company every wanted me to do that they'd either have to be paying me really well or..."

You should be getting paid well already, you're an electrician. 

Getting to work on time even if it means leaving earlier is a part of life. Many good careers require the employees to take work home with them to do outside of work hours. As an electrician, you should be getting paid very well. And leaving early enough to be on time every single day is perfectly reasonable. 

Tell you what, if you truly feel the way that you said, be sure to tell the person interviewing you for your next job that you feel that getting to work on time every single day is a "silly expectation". See if you get hired.


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## ElectricalOJ (Aug 14, 2015)

I like this forum post. Everyone has their own opinion about what they think a good apprentice does. I will never agree that it's better to be 30 minutes early everyday though. I guess most of the older guys here came up when that was normal.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

ElectricalOJ said:


> I like this forum post. Everyone has their own opinion about what they think a good apprentice does. I will never agree that it's better to be 30 minutes early everyday though. I guess most of the older guys here came up when that was normal.


It has to do with respect for your employer, the job and understanding how a company runs. 

If you are one of two, three, four or XXXX and you are late you screw the pooch for the first 30 minutes of work for everyone a selfish inconsiderate move IMO.

The cool thing about this is you, if you are late more than a few times with me as the boss I get to send you packing.

As an union apprentice this goes on your pink slip.

It is my football I make the rules........


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Sparky Mcgregor said:


> "unacceptable anywhere else" is a pretty bold statement given how many types of businesses there are. Leaving my home every single day an hour earlier just to stop myself from being five minutes late from time to time just seems insane to me. If a company every wanted me to do that they'd either have to be paying me really well or I would only comply till such time that I could find another job. I put too much value on my time to squander it in order to satisfy silly expectations derived of purpose. I give an extra 20min drive time each day. Anything delays beyond that time period I consider out of my hands. Those people who are willing to live their life constantly in fear of being a few minutes late can have their superior work ethics.


There is a reasonable time one should leave their house everyday, once, twice late is one thing but if you are habitually late and you tell me it is traffic, my opinion of you is SLACKER, cause you can't get out of bed in time to make it to work.

In my experience good workers, good employees show up in sufficient time to work without screwing their fellow employees or their employer.

And people that make up excuses to justify sleeping in or missing the alarm are doing just that making up excuses. 

If you are habitually late and turn in 8 hours you are stealing from your employer, no different than taking material home and justifying it my saying you worked 2 seconds OT.

In 31 years in business and 46 years in the trade the very few that make excuses as some have presented here are usually not the best employees.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm late. Frequently. But I run small jobs and more often than not I find myself staying past when the end of the day is supposed to be. It all evens out. And I always make sure whoever else is working with me is set up for the next day so they can just start when they're supposed to. Sometimes I stop at the SH on the way in, sometimes I have a meeting, sometimes I'm just late. It doesn't stop things happening, and as I said I stay late frequently anyway so I'm not stealing anybody's time. My employer loves the work I do and the guys that work under me enjoy doing so. I think the way I'm doing things is working fine. If I went somewhere else, would it be a problem? Probably. But it works where I am right now and that suits me just fine. Think I'm lazy? Disrespectful? Making excuses? Guess what: I don't work for you.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

B-Nabs said:


> Guess what: I don't work for you.


If you are working a two man crew and give 8 hours a day, I'd have no issue with that unless.

You have a customer sitting waiting on you.
You have your help sitting waiting on you.
You have a larger crew waiting on the odd man out to d a particular job.


Then I'd have an issue. And no you don't work for me but as jobs go I think what the be on time guys are discussing here is the norm and many firms will not put up with tardy employees.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

brian john said:


> If you are working a two man crew and give 8 hours a day, I'd have no issue with that unless.
> 
> You have a customer sitting waiting on you.
> You have your help sitting waiting on you.
> ...


Very good points. If I have a particular appointment, or a particular task to make sure begins in a timely way, or some other such commitment, then I make darn sure to be there to make sure it works out that way. Otherwise, I set up my lead so that things can run smoothly in my absence, leaving me free to do whatever other behind the scenes stuff needs to happen to keep the job moving, and also meaning that when I'm a few minutes late it doesn't affect production.

I see everyone's point about start time being important when one person's tardiness holds up the machine though.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm on time every morning so I can take a $hit @ 7 on the dot.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

TGGT said:


> I'm on time every morning so I can take a $hit @ 7 on the dot.




I like your style


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I'm on time every morning so I can take a $hit @ 7 on the dot.


Scooter is that you?


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## lightman (Oct 14, 2015)

The smart mouth would cause me to get rid of him faster than most things. If he was slow to learn I might spend more time with him. If he was lazy I would work on that. But the mouth, I ain't putting up with it! Or with a lot of time on the cell phone.


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## Sparky Mcgregor (Sep 7, 2015)

HackWork said:


> "If a company every wanted me to do that they'd either have to be paying me really well or..."
> 
> You should be getting paid well already, you're an electrician.
> 
> ...


I am getting paid well, and the minute my employer asks me to be on time at all cost I will, but that's only me not wanting to loose a high paying job. It wouldn't make it any less senseless a request. The part you don't seem to be getting is that he's not asking me to do that and truly doesn't care. I know this is hard to believe but there are people out there who actually care if their employee's are happy and would prefer they not waste their time simply to satisfy neurotic sense of importance they've place on an arbitrary number that in no way effects the productivity of the business. Not all people have jobs where lateness impacts poorly on other people. You have to use good judgment and negotiate a system that works well for both employer and employee equally if you don't want low moral. I never said I was habitually late. I said occasionally I'm late. In fact I'm usually very punctual. If I'm late I'll either stay later to compensate or won't charge the company for that time. Not stealing. Just being late. 

Also a quick anecdote. My last job I got my times confused for my interview because I had three others that week and showed up and hour late for the interview. They still gave me the job and were extremely happy with my work performance. People need to relax and focus on what matters.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Sparky Mcgregor said:


> I am getting paid well, and the minute my employer asks me to be on time at all cost I will, but that's only me not wanting to loose a high paying job. It wouldn't make it any less senseless a request. The part you don't seem to be getting is that he's not asking me to do that and truly doesn't care. I know this is hard to believe but there are people out there who actually care if their employee's are happy and would prefer they not waste their time simply to satisfy neurotic sense of importance they've place on an arbitrary number that in no way effects the productivity of the business. Not all people have jobs where lateness impacts poorly on other people. You have to use good judgment and negotiate a system that works well for both employer and employee equally if you don't want low moral. I never said I was habitually late. I said occasionally I'm late. In fact I'm usually very punctual. If I'm late I'll either stay later to compensate or won't charge the company for that time. Not stealing. Just being late.
> 
> Also a quick anecdote. My last job I got my times confused for my interview because I had three others that week and showed up and hour late for the interview. They still gave me the job and were extremely happy with my work performance. People need to relax and focus on what matters.


Just to add there are always circumstances where flex time is needed. Often my guys work 12-24 hour days or 7 14 hour days, sometimes more, then obviously there is openness on the arrival times.

There are always circumstances where flexibility is needed in some company rules and that can be job specific, hard fast rules often can paint someone into a corner they do not want to be in.


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## mikesparky (Aug 1, 2015)

As a apprentice/human being being reading this it is amazing that any one even bothers going through an apprenticeship anymore. Cant ask questions, But can't make mistakes. Cant be a little fun and sarcastic, Cant be a nerd that says nothing. Good electricians know how to use their apprentices as a tool to be more productive and make the day less stressful for them. Thank god I work for a company that has great normal electricians that remember a time when they shorted things out, broke things, asked dumb questions and were young at one point in their life. Take a look at your apprentice and what he makes and what the cashier at walmart makes, chances are they aren't much different yet you expect 10x more employee for 10 percent more money....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> mikesparky said:
> 
> 
> > As a apprentice/human being being reading this it is amazing that any one even bothers going through an apprenticeship anymore. Cant ask questions, But can't make mistakes
> ...



No one EVER SAID THAT and if that is what you got out this you can't listen or read.

You most likely work for an average electrical contractor, which most ECs are. My Apprentices make a damn site more than Walmart cashiers, get holidays, vacation, health care, retirement and a free 5 year education.

But if I am going to educate you, I expect something in return and that is they show up on time, be ready to work, carry a pencil, have a good attitude, pull your damn pants up, put the cell phone away, nothing is beneath you (taking break orders, driving the truck, digging a ditch, pushing a broom) now lets get to work.

As I have said before after finishing their apprenticeship most now electricians ask to return to my shop.


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## mikesparky (Aug 1, 2015)

brian john said:


> No one EVER SAID THAT and if that is what you got out this you can't listen or read.
> 
> You most likely work for an average electrical contractor, which most ECs are. My Apprentices make a damn site more than Walmart cashiers, get holidays, vacation, health care, retirement and a free 5 year education.
> 
> As I have said before after finishing their apprenticeship most now electricians ask to return to my shop.


That is completely unheard of unless you are a union contractor, what I said is basically the memo of the last 9 pages. Aside from being Voluntold to be onsite early which I personally respect.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

mikesparky said:


> That is completely unheard of unless you are a union contractor, what I said is basically the memo of the last 9 pages. Aside from being Voluntold to be onsite early which I personally respect.


I am a union contractor the vacation is not union mandated.

And as for the last nine pages you need to pay closer attention to what is being said or you will end up installing MC cable where conduit was specified.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

mikesparky said:


> That is completely unheard of unless you are a union contractor, what I said is basically the memo of the last 9 pages. Aside from being Voluntold to be onsite early which I personally respect.


You are mistaken. There are many shops that do. I personally work for a decent sized non-union shop and the only thing we don't have on Brian's list is holiday pay, but we get a sizeable profit sharing check yearly as well as a Christmas bonus. That's not to mention a company vehicle we can take home with a fuel card. Also, a company phone you can use for personal calls as well if you like. I haven't had a phone bill in 8 years because I only use my work phone. It's the little things that add up that make all the difference. At least to me.

Maybe you just work for an outfit with lower standards and don't know any different?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Cow said:


> You are mistaken. There are many shops that do. I personally work for a decent sized non-union shop and the only thing we don't have on Brian's list is holiday pay, but we get a sizeable profit sharing check yearly as well as a Christmas bonus. That's not to mention a company vehicle we can take home with a fuel card. Also, a company phone you can use for personal calls as well if you like. I haven't had a phone bill in 8 years because I only use my work phone. It's the little things that add up that make all the difference. At least to me.
> 
> Maybe you just work for an outfit with lower standards and don't know any different?


:thumbsup:

We sub to other electrical contractors and I know of several that offer equivalent packages to union shops.

FORGOT - We also give Christmas bonuses to ALL employees.

When I went into business I swore I'd be different than the few bad companies I worked for, I may not be perfect but I LIKE TO THINK I am, there are always those that may not agree.

Cow where in eastern OR.?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

brian john said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> We sub to other electrical contractors and I know of several that offer equivalent packages to union shops.
> 
> ...


Hermiston.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Cow said:


> Hermiston.


I just finished driving the coast from San Diego to Seattle WONDERFUL TRIP, have done eastern OR but that was years ago. I do like skiing in Bend and have traveled to Ashland many times over the years. Oregon has such a wide range of terrain and is a great state to cruise


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