# Insulated Ground Wire in Romex Wire



## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

As RIVETER stated in the Arc-Fault thread? He wants a insulated ground wire in NM cable, I agree. I have wanted this for a long time. Does anyone have access to NM cable with an insulated ground and if so what brand?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Jmiester said:


> As RIVETER stated in the Arc-Fault thread? He wants a insulated ground wire in NM cable, I agree. I have wanted this for a long time. Does anyone have access to NM cable with an insulated ground and if so what brand?


Very common in the sixties, but it was a reduced size ground.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I doubt you'll find any since the NEC allows it to be bare.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I doubt you'll find any since the NEC allows it to be bare.


You are right. AND, that can work extremely well if the installation is correct. It is those who for some reason cannot figure out that just because two wires are at the same potential it does not matter if they touch that the insulation is needed.:thumbsup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> You are right. AND, that can work extremely well if the installation is correct. It is those who for some reason cannot figure out that just because two wires are at the same potential it does not matter if they touch that the insulation is needed.:thumbsup:


They deserve the extra troubleshooting time... It's a payback for me having to identify my switch loop whites...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> They deserve the extra troubleshooting time... It's a payback for me having to identify my switch loop whites...


I feel your pain. AND...you are right. It is for the same purpose...to compensate for those who are not as smart as you and I.:thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I bought a roll of soutwire 12/3 with a green insulated ground a while back. Must have been a freak. Then again i also bought a roll of colonial flex 12/3 with two blacks and a white.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

It doesn't need to be insulated. Let's stop compensating for every worst case scenario due to sloppy installation by making a product needlessly more expensive.


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

That green wire will simply become a traveler in 3 way switches...:yes:


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> That green wire will simply become a traveler in 3 way switches...:yes:


The same way the red in 12-3 AC often became an isolated ground.


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## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

It should not have to be one or the other. There will always be a cheaper option because the manufacturers will make what sells the most and has the most profit margin. I would like to have the option of buying the insulated ground Romex if I would like to.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Black Dog said:


> That green wire will simply become a traveler in 3 way switches...:yes:



As if having the ground wire uninsulated has stopped people from taping it at the box and using it as a traveler... I found that at my own house a few years back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

What is the actual benefit of this?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> What is the actual benefit of this?


The only benefit is keeping the bond wire from ever accidently touching the neutral and creating a nuisance trip on an AFCI.

Needless dumbing down of the trade.......what we need is not insulated bond wire but a big stick to beat the proper knowledge into the hack installers who don't understand this.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> The only benefit is keeping the bond wire from ever accidently touching the neutral and creating a nuisance trip on an AFCI. Needless dumbing down of the trade.......what we need is not insulated bond wire but a big stick to beat the proper knowledge into the hack installers who don't understand this.


 exactly. It's not the manufacturer's problem that some idiot can't dress a box properly. 

That reminds me, have you tried that ACG90 stuff which self-bonds when you use the right fittings in a metal box?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> That green wire will simply become a traveler in 3 way switches...:yes:


I didn't think about that. I like it. I want that too.:thumbsup:


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## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

Not just the neutral to ground but to all of the other conductors in that cable weather it be 2, 3, or 4 wire with ground.

Also in the switch and receptacle boxes themselves especially when the large dimmers and gfis are installed. It would give added insurance of something not to touch where it shouldn't. I have used grn solid while making up connections in my boxes at rough-in.

And yes I max the size of the boxes that I use and have for many years.


I would love to swing that stick at some of these screwballs.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> exactly. It's not the manufacturer's problem that some idiot can't dress a box properly.
> 
> That reminds me, have you tried that ACG90 stuff which self-bonds when you use the right fittings in a metal box?


Seen it but haven't tried it. Just more dumbing down.:no:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Jmiester said:


> Not just the neutral to ground but to all of the other conductors in that cable weather it be 2, 3, or 4 wire with ground.
> 
> Also in the switch and receptacle boxes themselves especially when the large dimmers and gfis are installed. It would give added insurance of something not to touch where it shouldn't. I have used grn solid while making up connections in my boxes at rough-in.
> 
> ...


Ahh ok, I get it now. This is another Cletis thread. I took the bait.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MTW said:


> Ahh ok, I get it now. This is another Cletis thread. I took the bait.


Who's Cletis?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Jmiester said:


> Not just the neutral to ground but to all of the other conductors in that cable weather it be 2, 3, or 4 wire with ground.
> 
> Also in the switch and receptacle boxes themselves especially when the large dimmers and gfis are installed. It would give added insurance of something not to touch where it shouldn't. I have used grn solid while making up connections in my boxes at rough-in.
> 
> ...


Almost 30 yrs playing with electrical now, 15 yrs with a license and doing it full time everyday......never had an issue with my bare bond wire touching to any other conductors..........especially a hot conductor. You shouldn't need an insulated bond wire for added insurance if its done right the first time. Its called being an electrician.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> Almost 30 yrs playing with electrical now, 15 yrs with a license and doing it full time everyday......never had an issue with my bare bond wire touching to any other conductors..........especially a hot conductor. You shouldn't need an insulated bond wire for added insurance if its done right the first time. Its called being an electrician.


I've been at it since electricians were replacing wicks in gas lamps and have made a lot of money fixing the errant touching of unintended conductors.:thumbsup:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I've been at it since electricians were replacing wicks in gas lamps and have made a lot of money fixing the errant touching of unintended conductors.:thumbsup:


I could count the number of times I've fixed the issue behind professional electricians, on one hand and have fingers left over.:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> I could count the number of times I've fixed the issue behind professional electricians, on one hand and have fingers left over.:laughing:


If they are still good fingers we could use you at the" FREE PROSTATE" booth at the picnic.:thumbsup:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> If they are still good fingers we could use you at the" FREE PROSTATE" booth at the picnic.:thumbsup:


Sorry bud.........my fingers are [email protected]. Damn carpal tunnel syndrome:laughing:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> Sorry bud.........my fingers are [email protected] Damn carpal tunnel syndrome:laughing:


I wish you would reconsider. Most of these guys are Asses, anyway.:thumbsup: It makes for an easy day.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Jmiester said:


> It should not have to be one or the other. There will always be a cheaper option because the manufacturers will make what sells the most and has the most profit margin. I would like to have the option of buying the insulated ground Romex if I would like to.


Import some NMD from Canada.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Import some NMD from Canada.


What leads you to believe that its common in Canada?


I have never seen NMD90 with an insulated bond wire. Its quite common in AC90 but not NMD.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rollie73 said:


> What leads you to believe that its common in Canada?
> 
> 
> I have never seen NMD90 with an insulated bond wire. Its quite common in AC90 but not NMD.


My bad. Thought is was the border to the north. Australia possibly ? I know somewhere the incorporate insulated grounds.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> My bad. Thought is was the border to the north. Australia possibly ? I know somewhere the incorporate insulated grounds.


 
You certainly could be right. I'm thinking its Europe somewhere. I do believe I've heard it mentioned as being common in areas that use 240 volts exclusively.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> You certainly could be right. I'm thinking its Europe somewhere. I do believe I've heard it mentioned as being common in areas that use 240 volts exclusively.


Can we all just agree that it is available?


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> Can we all just agree that it is available?


Aren't you needed over at the "prostate exam booth" ?:laughing:


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## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

Rollie73 said:


> Almost 30 yrs playing with electrical now, 15 yrs with a license and doing it full time everyday......never had an issue with my bare bond wire touching to any other conductors..........especially a hot conductor. You shouldn't need an insulated bond wire for added insurance if its done right the first time. Its called being an electrician.


So you have never done service work, BLINK.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Rollie73 said:


> Aren't you needed over at the "prostate exam booth" ?:laughing:


It's not up for a couple of months. However, I do try to do my best but sometimes it is just a pain in the ass. Don't tell the Mods, though. At least it's a paying job.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> It's not up for a couple of months. However, I do try to do my best but sometimes it is just a pain in the ass. Don't tell the Mods, though. At least it's a paying job.


Okay, it is time for me to turn in but I can't ignore the last PM. I won't give the name but I think you are correct and I will put a disclaimer...NOW. I AM NOT A REAL DOCTOR.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Jmiester said:


> So you have never done service work, BLINK.


Spend just a little more time reading please. I clearly stated that I have fixed this issue before but _never_ behind a true professional electrician. I also stated in my post that _I_ have never had an issue with my own bond wires touching anything that they aren't supposed to be touching. It only takes a little time to do it right the first time.

Reading comprehension is also an acquired skill......the same as our skills as an electrician.


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## Jmiester (Apr 8, 2015)

Rollie73 said:


> I could count the number of times I've fixed the issue behind professional electricians, on one hand and have fingers left over.:laughing:



Jmiester


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> That green wire will simply become a traveler in 3 way switches...:yes:


Not sure that would happen any more with an insulated EGC than it does now with the bare one. Our city inspector often finds the bare EGC used as a circuit conductor.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

The bare EGC in NM actually increases the likelihood that an AFCI will do something useful, but only for the AFCIs that still have a ground fault protection circuit.
A high resistance or glowing connection, which the AFCI can not directly detect, may, as a result of heat damage to the conductor's insulation, become a ground fault before a fire is started and the GFP would kill the power to the circuit.


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