# A question about "attitudes"



## Sparksmith

As of right now, I'm an apprentice. My attitude isn't perfect but I'm working on it.

I'm generally a "shut up and get **** done"/"head down and work" type. I don't talk back because I have no place to. But I'm not a Pollyanna either.

Where can the line be drawn between "thick hide" (shutting up and taking it) and "doormat"? What is grounds for "Talking back" vs. "taking up for yourself"? 

I'm a very automated thinker, and that means I do everything unflinchingly by the book, and I wish there was a manual for dealing with people like there is electricity and construction code. 

Thank you for your time,
T.


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## hardworkingstiff

Sparksmith said:


> ... I wish there was a manual for dealing with people ....


It's old, but still valid.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Frie...words=how+to+win+friends+and+influence+people


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## Southeast Power

Sparksmith said:


> As of right now, I'm an apprentice. My attitude isn't perfect but I'm working on it.
> 
> I'm generally a "shut up and get **** done"/"head down and work" type. I don't talk back because I have no place to. But I'm not a Pollyanna either.
> 
> Where can the line be drawn between "thick hide" (shutting up and taking it) and "doormat"? What is grounds for "Talking back" vs. "taking up for yourself"?
> 
> I'm a very automated thinker, and that means I do everything unflinchingly by the book, and I wish there was a manual for dealing with people like there is electricity and construction code.
> 
> Thank you for your time,
> T.


I always remember letting the bully types know that one day they will be old men on a job I'm running. It gives them something to think about and, it happens way sooner than they expect. 
I've had some of the bigger prlcks refuse to come on one of my jobs just for that reason. I would not have been vindictive but, it was sweet that they always remember.


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## HackWork

If you show yourself to be a good guy who doesn't complain, then you don't have to do anything. As soon as someone goes over the line and becomes a bully, the other guys will come to your defense. 

But if you are always talking back, no one will come to your defense and you'll end up being the target.

It's part of the apprenticeship, tough it out and it will be over and you will be a better person for being the bigger man.


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## Navyguy

There have been a bunch of threads on this sort of thing. It is funny in some ways because culturally we tend to "eat our own"; on the other hand, if another tradesmen was to even suggest something to one of our electrical apprentices the Jmen would be all over them like "mama bear".

On larger site, electricians are the top of the food chain, and generally we all take advantage of that. Short of outright harassment or discrimination, to be able to enjoy the status we have; there is an element of "paying your dues".

Cheers
John


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## HackWork

Navyguy said:


> There have been a bunch of threads on this sort of thing. It is funny in some ways because culturally we tend to "eat our own"; on the other hand, if another tradesmen was to even suggest something to one of our electrical apprentices the Jmen would be all over them like "mama bear".
> 
> On larger site, electricians are the top of the food chain, and generally we all take advantage of that. Short of outright harassment or discrimination, to be able to enjoy the status we have; there is an element of "paying your dues".
> 
> Cheers
> John


I don't see it as eating your own as much as training you to be a better man in the long run. It's like military basic training.


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## sbrn33

Sparksmith said:


> As of right now, I'm an apprentice. My attitude isn't perfect but I'm working on it.
> 
> I'm generally a "shut up and get **** done"/"head down and work" type. I don't talk back because I have no place to. But I'm not a Pollyanna either.
> 
> Where can the line be drawn between "thick hide" (shutting up and taking it) and "doormat"? What is grounds for "Talking back" vs. "taking up for yourself"?
> 
> I'm a very automated thinker, and that means I do everything unflinchingly by the book, and I wish there was a manual for dealing with people like there is electricity and construction code.
> 
> Thank you for your time,
> T.


I am guessing you are a union apprentice. If so I think you will have to get used to it. It is part of their hazing process. In a few years you are the one that gets to be a prick.


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## Navyguy

HackWork said:


> I don't see it as eating your own as much as training you to be a better man in the long run. It's like military basic training.


Same / same I think; just different vernacular. In the end, the ones that "survive" get to join the family.

Our trade (in broad terms) does not suffer fools well; they either crumble under the pressure, or get a major injury or killed.

Cheers
John


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## PlugsAndLights

First off, being an asshole doesn't make someone else better, it just proves
you're an asshole. 
From time to time you'll find yourself having to work with these guys. Before 
long though the more important people will see your value and you'll start
getting some choice in who you do and don't work with. 
It may seem completely unrelated, but I've always been a money saver. It's
not just about early retirement, it's about freedom. When I said something 
like "ya, I'm no good at this, you should lay me off", most of the time they 
shut up and if they laid me off instead I was equally happy with that. Saying 
it with a relaxed smile is crucial. Course for this to work you have to actually 
be happy to have some time off to go canoeing or whatever. 
Now we'll here from a someone saying they'd lay me off for this. 
Like I care. :laughing:
P&L


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## Navyguy

PlugsAndLights said:


> First off, being an asshole doesn't make someone else better, it just proves you're an asshole.


This is so true, and so important. There is a big difference in being an asshole and being extremely demanding to meet training, moral, ethical, safety standards, etc.

There are a lot of people out there that struggle with the difference between the two on both sides of it; I would say I am "pretty rough" on my apprentices, but at the same time I train them, respect their rights, give them opportunity to make mistakes, etc.

I have been called an asshole many times I am sure, but I am more of a "prick" if I was self-evaluating :no:

Cheers
John


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## sbrn33

Navyguy said:


> Same / same I think; just different vernacular. In the end, the ones that "survive" get to join the family.
> 
> Our trade (in broad terms) does not suffer fools well; they either crumble under the pressure, or get a major injury or killed.
> 
> Cheers
> John


That is just an ignorant comment. No one needs to be a prick to train someone to be a good and safe electrician. This is just a ****ed up mentality that you learned coming up through the trades.
Just be cause you are a J-Man does not mean you are a great electrician and should be teaching young apprentices your ****ed up values. 
By the way there is no "family" in the real world. This kind of **** is rare in real life.


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## PlugsAndLights

Navyguy said:


> This is so true, and so important. There is a big difference in being an asshole and being extremely demanding to meet training, moral, ethical, safety standards, etc.
> 
> There are a lot of people out there that struggle with the difference between the two on both sides of it; I would say I am "pretty rough" on my apprentices, but at the same time I train them, respect their rights, give them opportunity to make mistakes, etc.
> 
> I have been called an asshole many times I am sure, but I am more of a "prick" if I was self-evaluating :no:
> 
> Cheers
> John


So I don't know where you fall on the spectrum. From what I've seen here 
I'm inclined to give you the benefit of doubt. 
Being as we're both Canucks, you're very likely aware of the endless 
reports of abuse in the RCMP. Their military base has led to possibly the 
worst work place in Canada. No government will ever have the balls to 
do it, but, the only way that can be fixed is to completely disband the 
RCMP and start over with a new organization. That won't happen and 
ridiculous abuse stories will go on long beyond my life time. 
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/bullying-nudity-alleged-at-rcmp-training-school-cbc-report


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## splatz

This has to be the union's weakest area. They do a good job training apprentices on the work but don't put anything at all into developing, what would you call it, workplace leadership, turning the grunts into the people that run grunts. Even at the bottom of the totem pole people are entitled to some respect from EVERYONE. 

I suspect there was a time when this was not a problem, there were unwritten standards for what's acceptable and what's over the line. I say just based on what I see from the older cats that are still around, some of them are pretty hard characters but it's pretty rare to see them acting like trash. 

Maybe it took care of itself without any formal program years ago but it isn't working now. 

It's OK to be hard on people, nobody has to be nice, and humorous ball busting is just fun and games. Sadistic bull**** - you do it in front of me and we'll see who's going to abuse who today.


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## active1

Where can the line be drawn between "thick hide" (shutting up and taking it) and "doormat"? What is grounds for "Talking back" vs. "taking up for yourself"?

After 5 years here when you finish your apprenticeship. LOL

Seriously it's hard to say because everyone has different levels of what's offensive. 
You don't really say what their doing that bothers you.
Some apprentices want to act like they have a chip on their shoulder, thinks someone is disrespecting them if they are looked at wrong, doesn't like being told what to do, doesn't like to be critiqued, or told how to do something different.

If your stubborn, don't take criticism well, or think you know a better way you may have a rough time. Sometimes a person own attitude brings out the worst in others.

From only what you posted:
Your not a Pollyann (not cheerful or optimistic)
You don't talk

Try talking to your co-workers during acceptable times.
Try to have a good attitude about when your asked to do something.

It's gets old every time you ask a person to do a task, and they are negative about having to do it. Verses a person with a positive attitude.
"Need you to go back to the container and get 10 more of these". 
The response could be "uh, man I was already over there 3 times today. That's a distance. Why couldn't you have told me when I went there before? Then what do you want me to do when I get back, dig a trench?" 
Vs "Right away, is there any thing else while I'm going there?"

Also, if you have head phones listening to music, don't.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> This has to be the union's weakest area. They do a good job training apprentices on the work but don't put anything at all into developing, what would you call it, workplace leadership, turning the grunts into the people that run grunts.


That's kinda funny. Show me any other part of the trade, non-union, ABC, etc, that gives foreman and general foreman classes. Proper leadership has always been a strong point in the training I received in the IBEW. 

I know sabrina is just trolling the union thread like usual, but some of you guys are going too far in what you think is normal on the jobsite. It's not like apprentices are getting beat and abused. Breaking balls is what makes the day go by. Often times the apprentice is the target, but he is usually the one laughing the loudest. In the end, learning a little humility is a good thing.


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## splatz

HackWork said:


> That's kinda funny. Show me any other part of the trade, non-union, ABC, etc, that gives foreman and general foreman classes. Proper leadership has always been a strong point in the training I received in the IBEW.
> 
> I know sabrina is just trolling the union thread like usual, but some of you guys are going too far in what you think is normal on the jobsite. It's not like apprentices are getting beat and abused. Breaking balls is what makes the day go by. Often times the apprentice is the target, but he is usually the one laughing the loudest. In the end, learning a little humility is a good thing.


I'm not talking about breaking balls, I am always up for that, whether it's at my expense or not. Everyone does have to have a sense of humor. I am talking about stuff that nobody's laughing about.


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## HackWork

splatz said:


> I'm not talking about breaking balls, I am always up for that, whether it's at my expense or not. Everyone does have to have a sense of humor. I am talking about stuff that nobody's laughing about.


How many union sites have you seen that on?

I posted about this earlier, most times when one or two J-man are getting out of line the others will step in, especially when it's a decent apprentice who doesn't cause trouble. No one wants to watch real bullying.


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## active1

Perhaps the original poster could provide examples of the harassment, abuse, conflicts or other problems having.

Otherwise we can only guess. Are they being locked in the gang box and pushed down the stairs. Locked in the porta John. Set up to do something that would hurt them like work on energized when told it's not. Told to work in a manner that goes against all safety like ride a forklift up. Being physically pushed around.

Or are we talking a dumb nick name. Or other jokes.


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## HackWork

Oh come on, who han't been locked in a sh1tter?!?!?! :laughing::thumbup:


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## emtnut

HackWork said:


> Oh come on, who han't been locked in a sh1tter?!?!?! :laughing::thumbup:


Good example !


Locked in the Sh!tter .... OK

Tipped over in the Sh!tter ... Not OK :jester:


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## RePhase277

I don't really see how this question even comes up... I guess the people who ask it have never been around a bunch of rowdy guys before...

When it comes to electrical, shut up and listen. When it comes to ball busting, play the game and shoot it back. Nothing will make the guys hound you like being a little bitch about some joking around. Apprentice or not, you're still a man (I assume], and as a man, you can give as good as you get.


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## emtnut

RePhase277 said:


> I don't really see how this question even comes up... I guess the people who ask it have never been around a bunch of rowdy guys before...
> 
> When it comes to electrical, shut up and listen. When it comes to ball busting, play the game and shoot it back. Nothing will make the guys hound you like being a little bitch about some joking around. Apprentice or not, you're still a man (I assume], and as a man, you can give as good as you get.


I got my son a job with a utility contractor for the summer when he was 16.
I also gave him a high-vis shirt from my work (had the logo on it)

One of the guys came up to him and said ... Hey, you stole that shirt... we can fire you for that.

My son, without skipping a beat said ... It fell off the back of the fuc%ing truck !

He's still with them ... full time now ... and yeah, Dad doesn't have to worry about him on the job :thumbsup:


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## MechanicalDVR

Working for family as a kid I took crap from every guy on the job, being the owner's nephew isn't fun at all but at the same time I'd give it right back in a ball busting manner.
By the time I was 12 and 6', 200# the busting stopped.

As Hack said if I took any flak from another trade on the job the older guys had my back and would be all over who ever was getting on my case.

On union jobs later as an adult I busted the apprentices chops but never in a mean or vindictive way. Any apprentice that worked with me learned something as I never just let them stand there like a bump on a log and watch.

In general let the crap roll off your back unless it gets really personal or physical.

One day soon it will be your turn.


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## Sparksmith

Someone asked for specifics, I'll issue some.

There was some heavy duty work where I wanted to step up and hold a piece of equipment that a lot of other JWs seem to struggle to hold. I just wanted to get a taste of what that work is like and give the other guy a break from holding it (dry core drill).

I told him my objective was just to learn so I can get to the point of eventually doing it on my own. 

He told me things such as "you're a long way off, you have high expectations for your career, you look really ****ing awkward holding that," And a small argument happened. The air was tense and hostile the rest of the time working with him.

Another mech I was working with told me to consider a new line of work lol. It was my first week or so on the job and I had never worked construction before. He was the kind who expected me to be JW #2 and if I asked him what he needed, he would look at the ceiling and say "Hardware". And blow up if I came back with the wrong things. He wanted me to anticipate his next move and would be working on a project, getting red-in-the-face mad if I asked him questions about what he needed. Eventually he cussed me out infront of the other JW's and the other JW's really didn't like that. 

Another JW made a few comments about well, my ass, and despite being a dude, I don't like that sh*t. It wasn't ball-busting so much as it was whispered, creepy sh*t. Also the "pick that up for me", and the "stand right there in the doorway and listen" type sh*t scraps my trust and makes me feel vigilant on the job. I've reported it to the foreman and it hasn't happened since, but I still don't f*cking like the guy and feel different as if I were on a job that didn't have those comments at all. 

I wish my biggest issue was being locked in the sh*tter or the gangbox.

The foreman is frustrated with more than a few guys on the job. I really haven't noticed any playful ball-busting, this is primarily the tone of the job, what I listed above. Unless this is ball-busting, or the "phasing out the weak" process that's been talked about prior.

My dad has been in construction for a decade and told me that what I'm going through is not normal and totally unnecessary and I should be cussing them back out at this point. 

To be fair, the 'core-drill' guy has kind of been pegged as a moody worker, and his attitude problem is his own. He's not a bad guy, he was just pissed off and took it out on the nearest human being at that point. The other guy has a reputation, cept we get along now. It's a rude awakening. I have heard stories from other guys who were apprentices in the trades and theirs is not much like mine. They mostly have things to joke and laugh about. 

I do wonder what I'm doing wrong, personally. The only thing I can think to be a factor is that I'm quiet and I look pissed off all the time. It's just the way I've been my whole life. It doesn't mean I'm mad. I'm usually just deep in thought.

Another mistake I think I make is telling others my goals (when asked, appropriate times to talk about these things... you know). I've come from a lot of hard knocks in life and been on my own since I was 17. A lot of the guys, I'm sure, assume I still live at home with my parents and I'm afforded for with everything, simply because I'm young-ish. I'm not cocky or anything like that, but 90% of the people of my age bracket aren't driving their own cars in their own apartments and are kind of still treated as inexperienced children. 

They think that if I tell them my goals, that I'm just another "one of those" who expect all of life's glories to be handed to them. I understand their perspective. But it has me scratching my head as to why something called a "union brotherhood" would try to discourage you and take personal jabs at your work ethic, which is your only tried and true survival tactic, and something you pride yourself a lot on. 

I'm not someone who would quit under these circumstances, but someone who would continue the job disgruntled vs. enthusiastic like I used to be.

If I said I wasn't even a little discouraged it would be a lie. 

A lot of you have helped though, and I appreciate all of the insight offered. 4 years isn't a long time.


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## wildleg

hardworkingstiff said:


> It's old, but still valid.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Frie...words=how+to+win+friends+and+influence+people


fantastic read. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

if you can't readjust their attitude with positivity (as you will learn in that book he mentioned), then just shut up and do what you are told. Unless you have a question, keep your mouth shut. If you let them know it gets to you, you will get even more, so just smile, or laugh, and shake your head when they say something, no matter what it is. They call it "charm city", but Balt can be a tough crowd.

Once you have your hours in and pass your test, there will be plenty of time to tell idiots to go f themselves.


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## Sparksmith

wildleg said:


> fantastic read. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> if you can't readjust their attitude with positivity (as you will learn in that book he mentioned), then just shut up and do what you are told. Unless you have a question, keep your mouth shut. If you let them know it gets to you, you will get even more, so just smile, or laugh, and shake your head when they say something, no matter what it is. They call it "charm city", but Balt can be a tough crowd.
> 
> Once you have your hours in and pass your test, there will be plenty of time to tell idiots to go f themselves.


Thanks. I'm sure its just a matter of biding my time. Sometimes you're stuck with the **** end of the stick and there's not much else you can do.


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## sbrn33

Sparksmith said:


> Thanks. I'm sure its just a matter of biding my time. Sometimes you're stuck with the **** end of the stick and there's not much else you can do.


Do you have to work with these guys forever?


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## HackWork

Honestly, by your story it sounds like things are working themselves out.

The one guy was being a d1ck, and as you mentioned, the other guys noticed and don't like it. So fu*k him. 

The other guy likes your ass, so tell him you are going to f*ck him where he speaks. 

It'll be over soon.


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## active1

Maybe the guy took over the coring drill felt like you questioned his ability to do it on his own. Tired and irritated his response was to degrade you.

The guy looking at you was what we used to call a ***.

The other JW you described with the hardware just seemed like an asshol*.
A skilled JW should have gave you a description. Like a box of 3/8-16 x 1" bolts and a box of fender washers. Or a box of course 1.5" drywall screws. They kept telling up be professional. It's not fuc*ing screw. It's a 6-32x1" machine screw.


In the trade, just like life there are all types. Not all are good people. 

Could be you're the newest apprentice so you get teamed up with the people no one else wants to work with.


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## splatz

HackWork said:


> That's kinda funny. Show me any other part of the trade, non-union, ABC, etc, that gives foreman and general foreman classes. Proper leadership has always been a strong point in the training I received in the IBEW.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone's handling it that great across the board, or everyone else is doing a great job with it excpet the union; I am just saying a weak point in the union's system. 



HackWork said:


> How many union sites have you seen that on? I posted about this earlier, most times when one or two J-man are getting out of line the others will step in, especially when it's a decent apprentice who doesn't cause trouble. No one wants to watch real bullying.


It tracks right to a few union shops and it flows downhill, from a-hole owner to a-hole foremen, then the jmen that are prone to that kind of **** see they can get away with it and they do. 

Like most bullies, they will operate when they know they can get away with it, if the douchebags are outnumbered they don't pull their nonsense.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone's handling it that great across the board, or everyone else is doing a great job with it excpet the union; I am just saying a weak point in the union's system.
> 
> 
> It tracks right to a few union shops and it flows downhill, from a-hole owner to a-hole foremen, then the jmen that are prone to that kind of **** see they can get away with it and they do.
> 
> *Like most bullies, they will operate when they know they can get away with it, if the douchebags are outnumbered they don't pull their nonsense.*


Absolutely!


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## Wiresmith

you don't have to shut up and take any of it. if you talk back to them, the worst thing that will likely happen is you get laid off and then go out for work for someone else that might be a good worker. and if its to bad talk to your job steward or business manager. the union slugs on the job more focused on harassing apprentices usually have substantially less they can teach you than the ones doing what they are getting paid for, so getting moved to another job or journeyman is a good thing in your situation and it sometimes takes several moves. if you do get paired up with good jman or company work hard, show up early, and take notes or you'll be back with the slugs.


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## lighterup

Sparksmith said:


> Someone asked for specifics, I'll issue some.
> 
> There was some heavy duty work where I wanted to step up and hold a piece of equipment that a lot of other JWs seem to struggle to hold. I just wanted to get a taste of what that work is like and give the other guy a break from holding it (dry core drill).
> 
> I told him my objective was just to learn so I can get to the point of eventually doing it on my own.
> 
> He told me things such as "you're a long way off, you have high expectations for your career, you look really ****ing awkward holding that," And a small argument happened. The air was tense and hostile the rest of the time working with him.
> 
> Another mech I was working with told me to consider a new line of work lol. It was my first week or so on the job and I had never worked construction before. He was the kind who expected me to be JW #2 and if I asked him what he needed, he would look at the ceiling and say "Hardware". And blow up if I came back with the wrong things. He wanted me to anticipate his next move and would be working on a project, getting red-in-the-face mad if I asked him questions about what he needed. Eventually he cussed me out infront of the other JW's and the other JW's really didn't like that.
> 
> Another JW made a few comments about well, my ass, and despite being a dude, I don't like that sh*t. It wasn't ball-busting so much as it was whispered, creepy sh*t. Also the "pick that up for me", and the "stand right there in the doorway and listen" type sh*t scraps my trust and makes me feel vigilant on the job. I've reported it to the foreman and it hasn't happened since, but I still don't f*cking like the guy and feel different as if I were on a job that didn't have those comments at all.
> 
> I wish my biggest issue was being locked in the sh*tter or the gangbox.
> 
> The foreman is frustrated with more than a few guys on the job. I really haven't noticed any playful ball-busting, this is primarily the tone of the job, what I listed above. Unless this is ball-busting, or the "phasing out the weak" process that's been talked about prior.
> 
> My dad has been in construction for a decade and told me that what I'm going through is not normal and totally unnecessary and I should be cussing them back out at this point.
> 
> To be fair, the 'core-drill' guy has kind of been pegged as a moody worker, and his attitude problem is his own. He's not a bad guy, he was just pissed off and took it out on the nearest human being at that point. The other guy has a reputation, cept we get along now. It's a rude awakening. I have heard stories from other guys who were apprentices in the trades and theirs is not much like mine. They mostly have things to joke and laugh about.
> 
> I do wonder what I'm doing wrong, personally. The only thing I can think to be a factor is that I'm quiet and I look pissed off all the time. It's just the way I've been my whole life. It doesn't mean I'm mad. I'm usually just deep in thought.
> 
> Another mistake I think I make is telling others my goals (when asked, appropriate times to talk about these things... you know). I've come from a lot of hard knocks in life and been on my own since I was 17. A lot of the guys, I'm sure, assume I still live at home with my parents and I'm afforded for with everything, simply because I'm young-ish. I'm not cocky or anything like that, but 90% of the people of my age bracket aren't driving their own cars in their own apartments and are kind of still treated as inexperienced children.
> 
> They think that if I tell them my goals, that I'm just another "one of those" who expect all of life's glories to be handed to them. I understand their perspective. But it has me scratching my head as to why something called a "union brotherhood" would try to discourage you and take personal jabs at your work ethic, which is your only tried and true survival tactic, and something you pride yourself a lot on.
> 
> I'm not someone who would quit under these circumstances, but someone who would continue the job disgruntled vs. enthusiastic like I used to be.
> 
> If I said I wasn't even a little discouraged it would be a lie.
> 
> A lot of you have helped though, and I appreciate all of the insight offered. 4 years isn't a long time.


Majewski is the model attitude on this sight.


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## splatz

lighterup said:


> Majewski is the model attitude on this sight.


I nominated Majewski for president last year but he was super busy.


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## lighterup

splatz said:


> I nominated Majewski for president last year but he was super busy.


Had I known , I would have seconded that.


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## lighterup

After I left the military , I got into an apprenticeship with
the carpenters union. (This was before I became an electrician).

Actually , watching the electrician sit on his lawn chair under his
beach umbrella while he waited for someone to yell "ELECTRICIAN!"
was where I originaly first took interest in that job:laughing:

Talk about getting abused. Those guys were merciless. Telling
me not to show up tomorrow without my new bride so they
could properly break her in...F**k that s**t. I was ready to go
with the knucklehead that went there.


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## electricguy

I have a part time JW that is union. union sends him to foremans courses when he is off work with them. Basically to train how to deal with men by not using the term "put on your big girl panties "


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## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> After I left the military , I got into an apprenticeship with
> the carpenters union. (This was before I became an electrician).
> 
> Actually , watching the electrician sit on his lawn chair under his
> beach umbrella while he waited for someone to yell "ELECTRICIAN!"
> was where I originaly first took interest in that job:laughing:
> 
> Talk about getting abused. Those guys were merciless. Telling
> me not to show up tomorrow without my new bride so they
> could properly break her in...F**k that s**t. I was ready to go
> with the knucklehead that went there.


Yeah stuff like that needs a physical response.


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## Wiresmith

if you do get with good jmen you will want to cut them slack once in a while when there having bad days though and don't start crap yourself, you should try not to and don't have to talk bad about bad jman either, most people will already know about the bad ones.


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## Navyguy

sbrn33 said:


> That is just an ignorant comment. No one needs to be a prick to train someone to be a good and safe electrician. This is just a ****ed up mentality that you learned coming up through the trades.
> Just be cause you are a J-Man does not mean you are a great electrician and should be teaching young apprentices your ****ed up values.
> By the way there is no "family" in the real world. This kind of **** is rare in real life.


Been away for a bit, so the reply / response is a bit late…

@sbrn33 Perhaps it is the descriptor you don’t like; I definitely an not a a-hole; I don’t abuse, demean, belittle, etc people. That is not cool and not part of my ethical makeup. However if a board is not straight, cable run crooked, straps not evenly spaced, bend on a pipe not proper, etc; I will have them rip it out and do it over. Some people would call me a p-rk for that. I have fired people for using the phrase “it’s good enough”.

I am an excellent electrician, while still admitting that being in the trade for over 30 years I still am willing to learn.

I know that I am an excellent trainer with proven results instilling a lifelong set of values related to professionalism and craftsmanship; so that is my real life, if it is not perhaps I was abducted by aliens? 

Cheers
John


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## Navyguy

PlugsAndLights said:


> So I don't know where you fall on the spectrum. From what I've seen here
> I'm inclined to give you the benefit of doubt.
> Being as we're both Canucks, you're very likely aware of the endless
> reports of abuse in the RCMP. Their military base has led to possibly the
> worst work place in Canada. No government will ever have the balls to
> do it, but, the only way that can be fixed is to completely disband the
> RCMP and start over with a new organization. That won't happen and
> ridiculous abuse stories will go on long beyond my life time.
> http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/bullying-nudity-alleged-at-rcmp-training-school-cbc-report


Not sure where you are going with this... but there certainly is systemic issues in a number of government organizations (all three levels) and in particular in the para-military ones.

Right or wrong, I think culturally many of these organizations have not come to grips with the "make-up" of today's employee / generation / social standards, etc.

I would never agree today with some of the things that were done years ago (hazing, right-of-passage, exploitation, etc); I hope our younger generation continues to demand positive changes to create a balance where people's rights are protected and a workplace can have good comradery and fellowship (esprite de corps) without the pendulum swinging so far in either direction.

Cheers
John


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## Sparksmith

Just an update, the difficulty on the jobsite has grown to be intolerable to the average "millennial", that's for sure. 

There's a hostile, tense atmosphere. I can feel myself, as a person, gradually shift to be more of an asshole in my time-off. Eventually I'll decompress. The thing that's admirable about being an asshole is that nobody ****s with you. I can see a lot of bull**** situations that could have been avoided if I was just an asshole in the first place.

Navyguy, I agree with everything you said there. The hazing, right-of-passage, exploitation culture is totally unnecessary. It's something I've been fumbling with to say but for the ultimate reason of: It's just unproductive. Disturbed employees are more likely to quit, fight, argue, snap, and hate their jobs. And are far less likely to be productive. On a logical basis, it's a stupid policy to abide by. Not because its a liberal stance or a cushy one. The logical thing to do would be to make an effort to cooperate. It facilitates a productive and empowering environment. 

Neil Degrasse Tyson said the following:

"I'm disappointed with some aspects of civilization... One is our unending urge to bypass subtlety of character, thought, and expression and just categorize people ... If you want to understand who and what a person is, have a conversation with him."


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## TokenFemale

sbrn33 said:


> I am guessing you are a union apprentice. If so I think you will have to get used to it. It is part of their hazing process


I wonder if anyone wants to expand on this.

i've noticed that electricians (in contrast to folks in the service industry) tend to have a business rationale for their criticism which i really appreciate. if some guy tells me i'm ****ing up and i should do better that's not something i'm going to contest; i'm going to fix the problem. likewise i don't get butthurt when someone doesn't end their sentence with "please".

the "beating down on apprentices" schtick i don't really understand tho; like we can't function outside of the workplace if we're complete doormats. what are they trying to accomplish? i figure some 19 year olds will join the program with a massive ego/chip on their shoulder but this doesn't apply to the large majority of us.


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## HackWork

Where have you seen all of this beating down on apprentices? 

I have *heard* way more about it here on this forum than I ever actually saw in the real world.


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## TokenFemale

HackWork said:


> Where have you seen all of this beating down on apprentices?


only with my own two eyes bb

i don't have much of an ego nor a Stake As A Man In A Manly Job so if someone tells me i suck i laugh and agree because i probably do.

when they tell me i suck 10 times a day that gets a bit tedious and probably counterproductive.


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## HackWork

TokenFemale said:


> only with my own two eyes bb
> 
> i don't have much of an ego nor a Stake As A Man In A Manly Job so if someone tells me i suck i laugh and agree because i probably do.
> 
> when they tell me i suck 10 times a day that gets a bit tedious and probably counterproductive.


If you have had so many people telling you that you suck 10 times a day for years, then maybe it's you...?

How much is this happening? Is it one guy doing it or many? Was it while working for one company or has it followed you thru many employers?

ETA: I see you have only been in the trade for a few months and have been complaining from the beginning. You claim to not be able to learn anything because you have ADD, so I don't know what you expect.


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## TokenFemale

HackWork said:


> If you have had so many people telling you that you suck 10 times a day for years, then maybe it's you...?
> 
> How much is this happening? Is it one guy doing it or many? Was it while working for one company or has it followed you thru many employers?
> 
> ETA: I see you have only been in the trade for a few months and have been complaining from the beginning. You claim to not be able to learn anything because you have ADD, so I don't know what you expect.


oh hello, i'm accumulating a fan base!

there seems to be some kind of learning curve at stake and i'm getting a better sense of what's expected of me and how to meet those expectations as i spend more time doing the work.

i seem to have graduated from "complete idiot" to "may become a passable electrician in time" so i figure i'm right for sticking with it. like, people still laugh at me, but a lot less.

taking ritalin helps too.

diagnosis: probably me, but there's no reason to be an asshole about it.


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## HackWork




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## backstay

TokenFemale said:


> oh hello, i'm accumulating a fan base!
> 
> there seems to be some kind of learning curve at stake and i'm getting a better sense of what's expected of me and how to meet those expectations as i spend more time doing the work.
> 
> i seem to have graduated from "complete idiot" to "may become a passable electrician in time" so i figure i'm right for sticking with it. like, people still laugh at me, but a lot less.
> 
> taking ritalin helps too.
> 
> diagnosis: probably me, but there's no reason to be an asshole about it.


If my apprentice screws up, it's on me. If after explaining and showing, they still screw up, it's on them. I have no time for formens, bosses or JW, that publicly cut down their apprentices or workers. I expect respect, and I give respect. This isn't 2nd grade.


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## TokenFemale

i hate the guys who are like, "ask questions so you don't **** up"

then you come to them two minutes later with a question

"why are you asking me this dumb question"


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## Sparksmith

Not trying to be rude TokenFemale, but that's a 0 out of 10 with the group I'm in now. 

Since I last posted, things have dumped from out of the frying pan and into the fire. 

Coming here does provide a glimmer, though. Things seem sunnier and much relaxed on the other side of the summit as a JW, and if I remain with this company throughout the whole of my apprenticeship, I'll resign after I turn out. I heard, on here, that was a good thing to do, anyway. 

I can always come here with my questions at least. Here and reddit...


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## Rora

Take a step back and see that this is nothing but drama. Over the course of your life/career, the only way it will have the ability to actually change anything for you is if you take it personally.

Do your best, try to be the best you can be, and forget everything else. Don't need to retaliate, don't need to even get upset. If you do a good enough job, the people who try to fault you will end up looking bad themselves as others' see them criticizing someone without a real occasion for it, or at the very least trying to provoke someone who's clearly above it all and doesn't care.


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## TokenFemale

Sparksmith said:


> Not trying to be rude TokenFemale, but that's a 0 out of 10 with the group I'm in now.


you'll have to elaborate on that a little more: who is failing miserably and why?


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## chicken steve

Maybe you _noobs_ should look at the EC side. 

Most of the 1st year noobs take all our time , we literally will be turning a tool with one hand, while orating and pointing with the other

Such is having to _babysit_ , one gets maybe 1/2 done that one could normally w/o having to _constantly_ watch, stop, correct, or advise a noob

I've even run bigger jobs , where all i did was carry a clipboard around , and coordinate the _'help_' (J-men included)

It takes a LOT of patience , especially with sorts that '_don't get it'_ , don't have their '_nose in the book_' or '_think they're doing ok_' w/o asking

I'll take a dirty basement over than anyday......~CS~


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