# Grounding of 400a residential service /dual meters/one disconnect outside and one inside



## Steve46 (4 mo ago)

I had a single 200a service that had a 200a disconnect located outside by meter. Grounding was done at disconnect outside, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. I have upgraded to 400a, and replaced single meter with a dual meter enclosure and added a 200a main breaker panel indoors for separate unit. I am not under 2020 code, so disconnect is in panel itself indoors, directly behind meter. So basically the outside has 2 meters and one disconnect only for original panel. Since existing outside disconnect was grounding properly already, I will left this alone. I was thinking to just ground the new main breaker panel separately, the same way, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. Is this done properly? I guess what I am asking is if it is ok to have one disconnect outside for the existing panel and the other panel having its disconnect indoors and all grounding the way I had explained, assuming of course no adoption of the 2020 code as of now? This is just a house, not a condo or anything. Thanks. Steve.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Steve46 said:


> I had a single 200a service that had a 200a disconnect located outside by meter. Grounding was done at disconnect outside, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. I have upgraded to 400a, and replaced single meter with a dual meter enclosure and added a 200a main breaker panel indoors for separate unit. I am not under 2020 code, so disconnect is in panel itself indoors, directly behind meter. So basically the outside has 2 meters and one disconnect only for original panel. Since existing outside disconnect was grounding properly already, I will left this alone. I was thinking to just ground the new main breaker panel separately, the same way, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. Is this done properly? I guess what I am asking is if it is ok to have one disconnect outside for the existing panel and the other panel having its disconnect indoors and all grounding the way I had explained, assuming of course no adoption of the 2020 code as of now? This is just a house, not a condo or anything. Thanks. Steve.


you are asking the wrong people 
ask your inspector
the better ones choose to help rather than hurt

if yours isnt like that, keep in mind that overkill may not be enough to please him

you also need to look up your poco "customer installation standards" usually found on their website
my poco requires #4 cu GEC for 200A
in my area ..... if you replaced the meter base, the whole job will be considered new construction
and every last bit of it will need to meet current code and poco specs


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

Adding my POCO does not all allow 2 meters of the same voltage to the same property. Unless they are for an apartment and the meters paid by different people.
Did you consult with the POCO and AHJ before you wandered down this path?


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## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

And to add to @SWDweller... is your zoning/municipality even allowing a 2nd occupancy?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Steve46 said:


> I had a single 200a service that had a 200a disconnect located outside by meter. Grounding was done at disconnect outside, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. I have upgraded to 400a, and replaced single meter with a dual meter enclosure and added a 200a main breaker panel indoors for separate unit. I am not under 2020 code, so disconnect is in panel itself indoors, directly behind meter. So basically the outside has 2 meters and one disconnect only for original panel. Since existing outside disconnect was grounding properly already, I will left this alone. I was thinking to just ground the new main breaker panel separately, the same way, #6 to ground rod and #4 to water main. Is this done properly? I guess what I am asking is if it is ok to have one disconnect outside for the existing panel and the other panel having its disconnect indoors and all grounding the way I had explained, assuming of course no adoption of the 2020 code as of now? This is just a house, not a condo or anything. Thanks. Steve.


What part of "closely grouped" don't you understand?

Do you think your need for swiftness and prosperity or the cheapest way out outweighs the lives of the very hands that feed you? One disconnect inside and another outside independent of each other???
I HOPE you're trolling, or you gotta be hack. 

Never shall I ever.


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## Steve46 (4 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> What part of "closely grouped" don't you understand?
> 
> Do you think your need for swiftness and prosperity or the cheapest way out outweighs the lives of the very hands that feed you? One disconnect inside and another outside independent of each other???
> I HOPE you're trolling, or you gotta be hack.
> ...


Don't be mad, get glad. I'm not seeing the issue here to get your laced panties tuned.

Power company can care less. Inspector is ok with second meter. My question was if a regular back to back 200a service is ok without a disconnect outside, what is the problem with a dual service with one meter and outside disconnect feeding 1 panel and the other meter feeding a panel with no outside disconnect, but disconnect in panel itself.........of course without 2020 adoption?

I see where the issue is. This area did not adopt 2020 code yet. Before then, inspectors are ok with panel within 5ft of meter and no outside disconnect.

Thank you to everyone else for the polite responses. You know, the men who are "actually" in charge when the wife's home, not having to pretend on a forum and be a douche when the wife leaves to the store for a little bit lmao 🤣.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Steve46 said:


> Don't be mad, get glad. I'm not seeing the issue here to get your laced panties tuned.
> 
> Power company can care less. Inspector is ok with second meter. My question was if a regular back to back 200a service is ok without a disconnect outside, what is the problem with a dual service with one meter and outside disconnect feeding 1 panel and the other meter feeding a panel with no outside disconnect, but disconnect in panel itself.........of course without 2020 adoption?
> 
> ...


Huh? Both meters outside and one disco out and the other indoors within the distance limitation the local Ahj can live with if that is I’m understanding this whole scheme that I accurately described it, it was even before the 2020 code was printed or written that Now requires or new residences to have a Killswitch accessible to the fire department and your door it is on the outside, has been code for a long time that the entire thing really sensitive head probably from the same underground or overhead lateral, is considered by code to be one service despite the fact that there isTwo different meters connected to it, and therefore two separate accounts but both those meters could actually be the wishes of a homeowner who simply wants part of their house calculated for whatever reasons .

Although I am aware of the fact that the ways the services and service entrances are arranged in specific regions because what becomes the traditional general excepted but the code is always read that I believe closely grouped has always been written in there I remember reading that 1984 in high school when we had to define what these legal terms meant and figure them out because learning that was the part is part of my whole job in my life I suck at reading I don’t remember anything.

As for the rest of your statement I realize they came off a little bit rude that I could see it but the fact of the matter is I cannot for the life of me find them or somebody would put a 2nd m on the house and not at this disconnect for it is there for some reason a sourcing problem just to get outdoor disconnect at the amperage rating necessary to cover the second panel because if you had to discos outside closely group then everything is covered by the rule why must we always try to do things and in our goal is least common denominator or the cheapest way out? This is was a very good code revision it was a long time coming.

Just spoke with the code red in the fact that New York City has for the longest time I had its own called the traditional way you have always been done for the smaller single double or triple family homes and duplexes and cooperative apartments under separate tenancy would be the two electric meters or whatever multiples of electric meters would be located in general the outside for the newer ones inside in the basement for the older ones and then the first means in this connect could be all the way on the third floor for that third family meterAnd the first means of disconnect was always the fuse box where the circuit breaker panel had they been updated since it was installed literally most everything is fat underground in New York City except in certain areas which for some reason decided it wasn’t too important to pull down the polls after they pass laws back in the blizzard of the 30s knocked out all the power over the city and people died. That’s when they told con Edison all the facilities have to exist underground you have to stop the aerial overhead stuff in the phone lines as well they are just eyesores where are used to seeing them but if you go to some other foreign countries in Europe that are in third world they don’t have anything expose telephone poles Woodbole strung up on Mars it was a horrible idea it was very cheap and expensive to do with it And the first means of disconnect was always the fuse box where the circuit breaker panel had they been updated since it was installed literally most everything is fat underground in New York City except in certain areas which for some reason decided it wasn’t too important to pull down the polls after they pass laws back in the blizzard of the 30s knocked out all the power over the city and people died. That’s when they told con Edison all the facilities have to exist underground you have to stop the aerial overhead stuff in the phone lines as well they are just eyesores where are used to seeing them but if you go to some other foreign countries in Europe that are in third world they don’t have anything expose telephone poles Woodbole strung up on Mars it was a horrible idea it was very cheap and inexpensive to do so at the time some people just didn’t guess you’re second-guessing things they figured the utilities knew what they were doing and since we’re so used to exposed overhead area wiring whining or streets and highways and parkways and see box that that was the only way to do it and there was nothing wrong with it because it’s really when you think about it visual pollution it’s actually ugly of course not to electricians you know we love that stuff we eat it up but for most people they’d rather have their power come on the ground and not see any of this infrastructure and indeed all over New York no new structure could be built no development plan no neighborhoods or new neighborhoods drawings or plans submitted unless Joe all of the logistical utility facilities equipment was kept underground, and at first even an hour of power company which was a monopoly at the time but existed on the franchise agreement and closely monitored, did not even want to use underground transformers and that’s why they had these big ugly green boxes periodically throughout the newer neighborhoods all over Long Island in New York State until somebody pointed out that those things don’t need to be above ground they can be submerged in water under a manhole may be perfectly fine in fact that’s where all of condescending New York City’s transformers are located and you will typically see exactly where they are banks of three transformers (because all of New York City only one 2208 is available three phase in the entirety of the coal city other than the borough of Staten Island and on the Rockaway Beach is which is served by Long Island lighting company anyway otherwise they don’t even have 120 to 40 pole pigs single phase transformers is never done every home would only get two phases of that three phase secondary one to their house and they would simply repeat the pattern of the first house on the block it pays ANB the second of being see the third get CNA and so forth you can actually get three phase power By simply taking the two phases in the first house and the 1/3 one from the second house that’s close by anyway and indeed there’s some people that had to check temporary hook things up like that because they had a three phase motor or not a permanent need for three phase but whatever, You get the picture?

All throughout New York City you will see between two avenues three extremely larger than normal of those double covered manholes with the one ring donut and the actual lid sitting it was in it and you’ll always see them in threes there’s never just one.

As for the rest of your statement I guess you don’t know me at all. I’m not into women.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

LGLS said:


> What part of "closely grouped" don't you understand?
> 
> Do you think your need for swiftness and prosperity or the cheapest way out outweighs the lives of the very hands that feed you? One disconnect inside and another outside independent of each other???
> I HOPE you're trolling, or you gotta be hack.
> ...


I was going to say that all building disconnects must be grouped together but in a nicer way. I have seen it done many many times where a person buys a house to split it up into 2 apartments. One disconnect is in the basement and the other is outside. I lost jobs because I was going to bring everything outside. That is one reason I gave up electrical inspections. I do not like to argue and how do you tell someone the did the whole job wrong?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Steve46 said:


> Don't be mad, get glad. I'm not seeing the issue here to get your laced panties tuned.
> 
> Power company can care less. Inspector is ok with second meter. My question was if a regular back to back 200a service is ok without a disconnect outside, what is the problem with a dual service with one meter and outside disconnect feeding 1 panel and the other meter feeding a panel with no outside disconnect, but disconnect in panel itself.........of course without 2020 adoption?
> 
> ...


For a long time ( 30 plus years ) all disconnects must be grouped together unless the two occupancies are separated by a true fire wall and not just sheetrock. Power company has no say and the electrical inspector should have known better. If this is continually passed then electricians will never learn. Wait until the 2023 NEC comes into play. If you touch the service then you have to bring all disconnects outside.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I was going to say that all building disconnects must be grouped together but in a nicer way. I have seen it done many many times where a person buys a house to split it up into 2 apartments. One disconnect is in the basement and the other is outside. I lost jobs because I was going to bring everything outside. That is one reason I gave up electrical inspections. I do not like to argue and how do you tell someone the did the whole job wrong?


I've seen brand new multi-family homes in the outer Boroughs where despite it never having been "Legal" when the NYC version of code was in play, and that detail already been clearly forbidden anyways when NYC adopted NEC with some amendments, 3-family + LL meter packs with no exterior disconnects, or a home-rollled cobbled together "on the fly" w 4 individual 1 family meters, always grouped was with no means of disconnects either directly inside OR outside was always incorrect, but accepted practice when all those un-fused cables or conductors had to go clear across exterior walls, attics, and basements with no protection until terminated in that units leased space possibly 3 or 4 floors away. 
I got a feeling that ConEd takes the whole arrangement as their jurisdictional call, and NYC's buildings inspectors are under the same impression, "It has to be approved by ConEd" because they make the call as to it's appropriateness before they fire you up and liven the service.


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## Steve46 (4 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> I cannot for the life of me find them or somebody would put a 2nd m on the house and not at this disconnect for it is there for some reason a sourcing problem just to get outdoor disconnect at the amperage rating necessary to cover the second panel because if you had to discos outside closely group then everything is covered by the rule why must we always try to do things and in our goal is least common denominator or the cheapest way out? This is was a very good code revision it was a long time coming.
> 
> As for the rest of your statement I guess you don’t know me at all. I’m not into women.


Thank you for the information, I do appreciate it. You may not agree, but I actually don't like the idea of any jerkoff having access to turn off the electric to my whole house if they wanted. The only reason the one disconnect is there, is because it has to be, otherwise I would have zero on the outside, because it also looks like crap and I dont have the room to install it away from the house in the yard. So it wasn't about the money otherwise I would have done two $125 meters and a trough. Instead I bought a ridiculous $700 Milbank dual LOL. This is why I don't have Verizon Fios. They want to put crazy equipment all over the side of the house, so I settled for the other demon. For a customers house I would not skimp on this, but I would at least bring it to there attention if not having a disconnect was an option in their area and why its important.......and let them decide if they want an additional ugly box on the side of the house or not if they can get away with it.

That being said though, I do agree that it is a good code for fire department reasons, but im not decorating my house for the fire department if the local AHJ says I can do otherwise.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Steve46 said:


> Thank you for the information, I do appreciate it. You may not agree, but I actually don't like the idea of any jerkoff having access to turn off the electric to my whole house if they wanted. The only reason the one disconnect is there, is because it has to be, otherwise I would have zero on the outside, because it also looks like crap and I dont have the room to install it away from the house in the yard. So it wasn't about the money otherwise I would have done two $125 meters and a trough. Instead I bought a ridiculous $700 Milbank dual LOL. This is why I don't have Verizon Fios. They want to put crazy equipment all over the side of the house, so I settled for the other demon. For a customers house I would not skimp on this, but I would at least bring it to there attention if not having a disconnect was an option in their area and why its important.......and let them decide if they want an additional ugly box on the side of the house or not if they can get away with it.
> 
> That being said though, I do agree that it is a good code for fire department reasons, but im not decorating my house for the fire department if the local AHJ says I can do otherwise.


An external disconnect is required per 2020. You are still on the 2017? But both have to be grouped. Either both inside or both outside. What is the outside disconnect used for? A separate building or the same building? If a detached building then you are OK but if it is the same building then you might have a problem


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Steve46 said:


> Thank you for the information, I do appreciate it. You may not agree, but I actually don't like the idea of any jerkoff having access to turn off the electric to my whole house if they wanted. The only reason the one disconnect is there, is because it has to be, otherwise I would have zero on the outside, because it also looks like crap and I dont have the room to install it away from the house in the yard. So it wasn't about the money otherwise I would have done two $125 meters and a trough. Instead I bought a ridiculous $700 Milbank dual LOL. This is why I don't have Verizon Fios. They want to put crazy equipment all over the side of the house, so I settled for the other demon. For a customers house I would not skimp on this, but I would at least bring it to there attention if not having a disconnect was an option in their area and why its important.......and let them decide if they want an additional ugly box on the side of the house or not if they can get away with it.
> 
> That being said though, I do agree that it is a good code for fire department reasons, but im not decorating my house for the fire department if the local AHJ says I can do otherwise.


Sounds perfectly reasonable...You might not realize that the disconnect or an panel outdoors or indoors can be padlocked, w/o violating the code to thwart the jerkoff's prank... the FD still has access & will simply grinder or snip the padlock off if needs be. Also agree with you visual objections I'm also starting to get irked at the "wall acne" as someone put it when the walls even inside the home start getting cluttered with an ever-increasing quantity of feature-packed switches, and I'm starting to appreciate more and more the idea of "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) and think I'm gonna backtrack and convert to a a simple solution or at least a simple appearing, versitile computerized non- internet dependent clean and sleek smart home system, instead of the sheer number of now pretty defunct audio system components as well.


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## Steve46 (4 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> An external disconnect is required per 2020. You are still on the 2017? But both have to be grouped. Either both inside or both outside. What is the outside disconnect used for? A separate building or the same building? If a detached building then you are OK but if it is the same building then you might have a problem


Well whoops I take back everything I said. Yes, same building. It wasn't sinking in at first about the "grouped" issue when you and LGLS were talking about it. But then again, I had a feeling about this and thats why i came here......thanks. 

Oh well. I ordered a disconnect and actually found the same exact one which is good. Problem is, I have 11ft of 2/O SEU that is pretty much useless since this disconnect needs SER on the load side now. Anyone need SEU?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Steve46 said:


> Well whoops I take back everything I said. Yes, same building. It wasn't sinking in at first about the "grouped" issue when you and LGLS were talking about it. But then again, I had a feeling about this and thats why i came here......thanks.
> 
> Oh well. I ordered a disconnect and actually found the same exact one which is good. Problem is, I have 11ft of 2/O SEU that is pretty much useless since this disconnect needs SER on the load side now. Anyone need SEU?


you will again someday no?


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## Steve46 (4 mo ago)

Yes sir, that's true.


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