# Staying strong



## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

What things can we do to support our unions and keep us hinted and strong , if seems like right now theirs a war agaisnt unions . Their keep trying to pass bills to hurt us .

Does anyone have a list of stores 
Food, clothes etc that are union made and things I can do just to help .

Thank u brothers


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

http://buyunionmade.com/


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

New York is a union bastion... as is my California.

Trump wants to massively expand infrastructure investment... ALL of it at Davis-Bacon wage rates.

Keep in mind that Davis and Bacon were Republicans... and the statute flew through Congress when the GOP totally dominated the Congress, House and Senate.

The statute was based upon the fact that Big Contracts were awarded to the lowest bidders... and that -- in practice -- these bidders were hammering their troops for a bid advantage -- no money was coming out of the Big Boy's pockets -- not even a cent.

Davis and Bacon realized that this was both unjust and a farce. The US Government was awarding Big Tickets to the most ruthless bastards in the 48 states... not the best or most clever contractors.

2) The biggest sustained threat to e-men is PV subsidy. The result has been that gazillion troopers from outside our trade have tromped over to play at solar-electrician.

Even Electrical Contractor magazine, et. al., turns a blind eye.

The proper response to PV construction ought to be a repeat of Hoover dam/ the TVA/ the BPA and the REA: 

ALL such Federally subsidized projects ought to proceed at Davis-Bacon wage rates. Period.

Whereas, under Barry Soetoro, every hack under the sun is scarring rooftops across America.

If FDR's Big Plans were adopted: we'd have a PV Authority building a world scale collector and converter in the high desert of New Mexico... where every physical circumstance is ideal. ( Its high deserts are virtually cloudless, and at 7,000 feet, the Sun just pours its bounty down. )

And all of the Brothers would be paid honest Davis-Bacon wages.

Thousands of roof-falls would be prevented, thereby, too.

New Mexico is right next to one of America's biggest energy markets: Texas.

Just saying.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

IMO, a quick read of union history will tell you exactly what keeps the union strong. strike breaking tactics never had a huge effect on unions (other than the FAA thing). what weakened the unions was illegal activities and getting involved with organized crime.

great training,good workmanship, and good pay and benefits and the things that go along with that, have always been the greatest strengths of the unions, and if they would just do that and lead by example, there would be no competition.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Speaking of PV jobs and prevailing wage. Back when Obama wanted to retrain and invest in new technologies including solar I along with many others were on board. 
First the state of NV got involved with PV testing and licensing.
Then places popped up getting about $1,000 per head grant money for a week training to install panels and pass the test.
Like many I get this new license and ready to go to work in the fields.
Reality, the work was not PW. 
It was a mix of everyone in other sectors from truck driving to carpet installer that was out of work looking for a paycheck.
They were getting in the range of $10/hr for night work miles out of town.
JW's were paid in the teens. 
But that's all there was.
If you didn't produce you got bounced.
Producing meaning over 1000 panels per night per crew.
Few years later solar hit the resi market here.
Put tons of unskilled people to work but the union and utility killed it in favor of the large projects. Just now the rules shifted back and it may be going all resi vs farms.
The point is those government created jobs are worthless if the wages are not protected.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

IBEW peeked in 1972 at 1,000,000 members.
Unions including the IBEW have been on the decline since.
2002 had 722,000.
2008 lost 14,000 at 708,000.
2015 down another 46,000 to 662,000.
https://www.unionfacts.com/union/International_Brotherhood_of_Electrical_Workers#membership-tab


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

I disagree with Wildleg. The Vegas union was strongest under organized crime. Close to 100% Vegas electrical work in the 1970's was union. New construction, service, residential, shows, maintenance.

The hotel maintenance contracts have not changed much since the 1970's. They included a paid lunch, a free hot meal, and free tool replacement.

The stories I hear from the part time retirees.

Such as working at the conventions. 
A booth supplier gets caught trying to run their own extension cord by an electrical foreman. The foreman politely tells them it's not permitted... and they need to order an electrician.
They get caught again by the foreman running a 3 wire cord.
The foreman start blowing a whistle. 
Then gets on a radio and says "EVERY JW IN THIS HALL IMMEDIATELY STOP AND COME TO BOOTH #.....".
There would be 100+ JW's standing all around the booth.
The security would drag off and 86 (permanently ban) the guy trying to do the work.
The foreman would tell the booth vendor they are now going to pay 1 hour labor for every JW there (100+).

If it was discovered 1 small item was already done without an electrician they would not power the booth. Not until they ordered an electrician, they would send 3 and charge 1 hour each.

Now the IBEW has very little control. Can't shut off their power even if it's stolen power, stolen materials, not safe, payment didn't clear, not done by electricians, or refused to sign for work. Only the fire marshal can threaten that for unsafe conditions, and even then it tends to slide by. If a JW confronts a vendor about theft of material the JW gets 86ed. To report something there is such a long chain of command it's almost pointless.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

That reminds me of an old interview with the Kinks. They said they didn't make any money touring the states when they started out. They were pretty down on unions. They wrote the song "get back in the line" after their experience, although the lyrics don't seem to have anything to do with their experience. 

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/kinks/getbackinline.html

My grandfather was a machinist for GM. My mother told me he would not buy a 50/50 at the church fair unless it had the union label.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

active1 said:


> I disagree with Wildleg. The Vegas union was strongest under organized crime. Close to 100% Vegas electrical work in the 1970's was union. New construction, service, residential, shows, maintenance.
> 
> The hotel maintenance contracts have not changed much since the 1970's. They included a paid lunch, a free hot meal, and free tool replacement.
> 
> ...


I have zero sympathy for the union, they made that bed and now they have to sleep in it. They got what was coming to them by engaging in that kind of thuggery.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

MTW said:


> I have zero sympathy for the union, they made that bed and now they have to sleep in it. They got what was coming to them by engaging in that kind of thuggery.


Don't understand why non-union people come to the IBEW page except to stir the pot or to vent about them not being included.

MTW you missed the point of my posts.
The reduced membership is partly due to no more organized crime and physical standing up to fight for the work.

We don't ask for sympathy from non organized.
More often local brothers and sisters say they feel sorry for you.
When it comes to working conditions, tools provided, fair treatment, pay, discrimination, retirement, and healthcare.
Not saying it's like that for everyone. 
Really depends a lot on the area licensing rules, enforcement, construction market, and available of workforce.

If you got a nice spot where your at then good for you.
Remember many in the non-union trade don't have it so good.
If there was no IBEW I guarantee everyone's pay and benefits would suffer. 

Perhaps you should thank a brother and sister for what you do have.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> I disagree with Wildleg. The Vegas union was strongest under organized crime. Close to 100% Vegas electrical work in the 1970's was union. New construction, service, residential, shows, maintenance.
> 
> The hotel maintenance contracts have not changed much since the 1970's. They included a paid lunch, a free hot meal, and free tool replacement.
> 
> ...


That's not just Vegas, those types of things happened in convention centers in NJ and NY too. And those stories are what make the general public *hate unions*. 

It's just like the stories of seniority/tenure or the auto unions "job banks" of laid off workers getting paid to sit in a room. Or the striking and picketing on the side of the highway causing traffic that makes thousands of people late for work every morning. These things are why when I talk to people about unions I can't get thru to them because they already know unions to be bad.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1 said:


> Don't understand why non-union people come to the IBEW page except to stir the pot or to vent about them not being included.


 He is telling you how it looks to people on the outside.



> MTW you missed the point of my posts.
> The reduced membership is partly due to no more organized crime and physical standing up to fight for the work.


 Or maybe the reduced membership is due to the reduced marketshare due to unions continually making themselves look bad. Another example, the Verizon strikes. How many YouTube videos are there showing union workers to be disgusting human beings? Dirty thugs?



> We don't ask for sympathy from non organized.


 But you do ask for patronage from them. And you aren't getting it anymore. Every year it's getting worse.



> Perhaps you should thank a brother and sister for what you do have.


OMG, I hope you don't believe these theatrics...

In 2 months will be my 20th anniversary of joining the IBEW. Reading posts like this make me sad for it's future.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

active1 said:


> IBEW peeked in 1972 at 1,000,000 members.
> Unions including the IBEW have been on the decline since.
> 2002 had 722,000.
> 2008 lost 14,000 at 708,000.
> ...


The results of the 40yr _war on labor_ are easy to find. 

In fact, a certain California gov , who had a prior history as a McCarthy '_rat_' in the 50's ,appeared on television eating grapes in defiance of a union-sponsored boycott in the 60's, went on to _sh*tcan_ thirteen thousand members of the PATCO as Prez in '81 is often noted for firing the '_first shot_'

Recent Hx has seen sorts like Walker dump all over public unions

Most of the_ rabid right _toddles along , willing to slice _their own throats_ via these union busting pols , unaware their corporate masters insist us regressing to the gilded age again.:no:


~CS~


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's not just Vegas, those types of things happened in convention centers in NJ and NY too. And those stories are what make the general public *hate unions*.


I think too many underestimate how much this costs ALL unions politically. Unions don't amount to much without political power. The average voter doesn't know much about unions but they all hear these stories and that's what they base their opinion on. 

Not just unions, whenever you get involved with organized crime, it usually works out for you and them both for a while, then it doesn't work out so great for you any more. You don't want to wake up with a whore, don't get in bed with a whore.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

I would almost prefer if the customer didn't know if a contractor was union or not. The whole "Union Pride" leaves a bad taste in most people's mouth. 

I'm not saying union pride is bad in itself, but the constant beating of any drum becomes annoying. 

I got into the habit of trying to impress the following upon any apprentice working for me:

If the union is a retail store, what do they sell?

Inevitably they try to answer with quality work, completed on time, we do it right the first time...

I say no, let's try this, if the union is a store, who is their customer base?

Inevitably they list the usual players like pharmaceuticals, some local manufacturers, some hospitals...you get the idea...

I say no. 

The reality is that if the union was a store their customer base is the very contractors that sign with them and what they sell is uniform training. 

The union itself tries to network with local customers (to some success) but I say it doesn't matter. If the union focused on what it takes to make a contractor successful that contractor would not only have the resources to be aggressive with their bids but also the confidence. 

Why should a contractor leave their comfort zone to go after work that is going nonunion?

What i think it boils down to is:

1) not watering down your product with aggressive organizing efforts without backing them up with training and testing

2) holding members accountable for jobsite behavior immediately if it should be an issue

3) holding members accountable to reasonable training, productivity and quality standards....or backing a contractor when they have established standards and an issue with an employee meeting those standards. (And I'm not necessarily speaking of disciplinary action, often this is the result of a lack of training)

3b) holding foreman to a higher standard, such as required training etc. I have seen jobs fall apart because of a poor foreman and the owner was none the wiser until it's too late. Whether it be organizational skills with tools/materials/layout, communication skills or maintaining morale, all this can be greatly enhanced with further training. 


If everybody did their part, the contractor makes money, the customer is happy and the union has members going to work every day. And it has nothing to do with an advertising campaign.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I would have replied the '_union store_' sells the concept of _collectivism_ Drew

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's funny that this thread came up because I spoke to my father and he brought up union marketshare yesterday. He is a PM for a large union commercial framing/drywall/general carpentry company. What he brought up was how the large retail stores that have been using union labor for decades are now going non-union. 

This is for many reasons. The main reason is not wanting to pay the premium for union labor. They were willing to pay it in the past for better performance, but now the non-union companies have smartened up. The customers were also willing to pay the premium for public image. But now they don't care since the public doesn't support unions like it used to.

In the past people that I knew would support unions without knowing that much about them. It was just "the way it is" in a left leaning place like NJ. But then over the years those same people now dislike unions for various reasons. Reasons such as "They set up coffins and giant rats next to the highway and made all of us late for work for months". Or "When they were striking they yelled at a woman driving to work and called her a c*nt and other horrible things for no reason". Or "They went to people's houses to scare their families". Or "They can't be fired no matter how bad they are at their jobs". And yes, I even had someone tell me "I had a tiny both at the convention center and I had to pay over $200 to have an electrician plug a cord in for me".

I believe the public perception and business's concern over it plays the biggest factor in the future of unions.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

active1 said:


> Speaking of PV jobs and prevailing wage. Back when Obama wanted to retrain and invest in new technologies including solar I along with many others were on board.
> First the state of NV got involved with PV testing and licensing.
> Then places popped up getting about $1,000 per head grant money for a week training to install panels and pass the test.
> Like many I get this new license and ready to go to work in the fields.
> ...


I cant blame folks for chasing the good money.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

active1 said:


> Don't understand why non-union people come to the IBEW page except to stir the pot or to vent about them not being included.


You must not be familiar with the concept of an open forum.



> MTW you missed the point of my posts.
> The reduced membership is partly due to no more organized crime and physical standing up to fight for the work.


So "physically standing up to fight for the work" means crowding around a vendor's booth and intimidating them? Do you condone this? 



> We don't ask for sympathy from non organized.


Maybe not sympathy but you do care a lot more these days about perception.



> More often local brothers and sisters say they feel sorry for you.


I'll get over it. 



> When it comes to working conditions, tools provided, fair treatment, pay, discrimination, retirement, and healthcare.
> Not saying it's like that for everyone.
> Really depends a lot on the area licensing rules, enforcement, construction market, and available of workforce.


There are bad companies everywhere but for the most part, non-union companies have their act together. 


> If you got a nice spot where your at then good for you.
> Remember many in the non-union trade don't have it so good.





> If there was no IBEW I guarantee everyone's pay and benefits would suffer.


If you think pay and benefits are simply down to the existence of the IBEW and other unions, you're vastly oversimplifying the issue. 



> Perhaps you should thank a brother and sister for what you do have.


Thank them for what, exactly?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Switchgear277 said:


> Does anyone have a list of stores
> Food, clothes etc that are union made and things I can do just to help.


Back to the OP, one good union made product you should buy: 
Knopp Type K-60 Voltage Tester


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I am sure not going to thank immigration for better pay and benifits!


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

active1 said:


> If there was no IBEW I guarantee everyone's pay and benefits would suffer.
> 
> Perhaps you should thank a brother and sister for what you do have.


I do agree that the IBEW, and everyone else that does something to keep wages up, helps me keep mine up*. 

The unions are primarily political entities that exist first and foremost for their own self perpetuation and as long as that is tied to negotiating a better deal for their members that's OK. They have not been playing politics as effectively as they used to, they just hitch their wagon to the Democratic party and hope for the best, which isn't enough. And it isn't a charity or a church, I would never volunteer my time for a union LOL. 

I am not going thank the brothers or sisters because I don't think they do it for me, I think they do it for themselves, which is fine, and I am glad they're doing well, but I don't owe them a thing. 

I am grateful to the people that organized around the turn of the 20th century and brought the world out of medieval times where a lived like pharaohs and working people were struggling to survive. 

I think the IBEW, and all of them, are not even fit to think they're anything like their forebears when they won't do jack to organize China, or Cuba, or Mexico, or a million other places where ****bird pharaohs exploit workers today. Yes, you might get your skull cracked if you go go China and **** off about unions, but a lot of skulls were cracked here too. You're not a hero because your club was heroic 100 years ago. 

* Except Verizon. I don't thank Verizon, or its brothers and sisters, or it's CEO, or its offshore customer service reps, or one stinking warm body at that company, for anything, at all.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Splatz, when you say the "IBEW" you are only talking about the local workers in that area.

It's not the IBEW organizations fault that the Chinese or Cubans aren't unionizing. 

If the Chinese want a charter, I'm sure the IBEW will be willing to give them one.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

Wireman.com also sells nice stuff for electricians. Good prices also.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

cabletie said:


> Wireman.com also sells nice stuff for electricians. Good prices also.


Thank you brother. I will do my best to do the small things to help out unions like but unin made , products 
Vote democratic , go to meetings rally's etc,

I wish I could do more it just seems to me , in my option that the rich republicans ceos , are trying to get rid of unions like trying to get rid of David bacon act ,


Passing right to work , and so on .

Even through all of this I can say some locals ibew are very busy and doing well with book one totally clear .

I also think that more unions should stick together and honor strikes , 

Like if a job is being built non union 
The teamsters should not deliver material , and so on n so on .


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

I would actually consider joining the IBEW if they weren't so deeply entrenched in the Democrat party. As long as they throw their support behind Democrats, I'd rather starve than join them.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

MTW said:


> I would actually consider joining the IBEW if they weren't so deeply entrenched in the Democrat party. As long as they throw their support behind Democrats, I'd rather starve than join them.



Well you mite not Starve but you deff will not have a pention , to retire on , top pay total package around 80ph $ 

Benifits with nothing being taking out of your poket , vacation pay , annuity , and five years of skilled training , 

The ibew is strong in ny and they are a blessing


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switchgear277 said:


> Well you mite not Starve but you deff will not have a pention , to retire on , top pay total package around 80ph $
> 
> Benifits with nothing being taking out of your poket , vacation pay , annuity , and five years of skilled training ,
> 
> The ibew is strong in ny and they are a blessing


That mindset isn't going to get you anywhere. I'm serious, it's time you give it up.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

"You must not be familiar with the concept of an open forum."
You must not be familiar with the concept of being a troll.

So "physically standing up to fight for the work" means crowding around a vendor's booth and intimidating them? Do you condone this?

I'm guessing you never done show work.
The sponsoring show signs a contract with the convention center included in that is a requirement that all electrical work is to be done by the contracted EC. The show then sells spaces to vendors with the same provisions. Some areas even have clear laws about who can touch show electrical.
It's not a vendors choice. If they want any electrical they need to pay either a set amount depending on needs and or T&M.
The problem is when vendors and labors start doing their own electrical, most of the time they don't do it to the local codes and requirements. 
Unsafe electrical conditions in places of gatherings filled with curtains, carpets, wood structures, papers, and other combustibles creates a real hazard.
For enforcement by the fire marshal is difficult after the fact as most of it gets covered under carpet, behind scrim, above ceilings, in walls, etc..

So it is my belief that the electricians should to be able to shut down an unsafe uncompliant conditions and repeat offenders need to risk being 86ed. Even work that was not performed by an electrician. 

A week ago I did work ant a medium size booth. Just finished in the minute it took me to start writing the ticket they tried to do more work on their own (to save money) and tripped 4 circuits. Can't do nothing except to keep telling them to stop, fix what they did, and call for a reset.

The Sands Convention Center dropped the electrician requirement and the union over a year ago. The result is ads on CL for cord runners, no experience needed $10/hr. They already have had several fires. Lucky not during a show. A convention catastrophe would really hurt this town.

Enough..
Sorry for you MTW.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

active1, you need to start looking at these things from both directions.

While there are many instances in which an electrician should be doing the work (and everyone on this forum would agree), the union abuses that as well, as you yourself described on the first page. That thuggery is bad for the union, not good.

You don't need to pay for an hour of an electrician's overtime for someone to plug an extension cord in. The booth owner can do that. And yes, I know that the circuit might be overloaded, so an electrician can point to one that isn't. The electrician don't need to separately bill an hour for each 30 seconds he spends plugging a cord in.

Like I said, that sounds great to the electrician making the money at the time, but it won't be so great when the IBEW is gone in a few decades because everyone was fed up with the abuse and thuggery.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

active1 said:


> "You must not be familiar with the concept of an open forum."
> You must not be familiar with the concept of being a troll.
> 
> So "physically standing up to fight for the work" means crowding around a vendor's booth and intimidating them? Do you condone this?
> ...


I started this tread for union brothers to talk about how to stay strong and unite , 

Now this is obviously i union section 
Of a open forum. So the only purpose a troll like mtw to post beg comments is to annoy .

Now I feel sorry for him and don't take offense bc he's obviously a troll .

I aggre their needs to be regulations 
At these places .


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

MTW said:


> I would actually consider joining the IBEW if they weren't so deeply entrenched in the Democrat party. As long as they throw their support behind Democrats, I'd rather starve than join them.


I can't say that isn't a huge problem for me as well.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Switchgear277 said:


> I started this tread for union brothers to talk about how to stay strong and unite ,
> 
> Now this is obviously i union section
> Of a open forum. So the only purpose a troll like mtw to post beg comments is to annoy .
> ...


This here is the problem. You are going to close your ears and mind off to everything other than what you are learning in the labor history course (indoctrination) your local is making you take before you start your apprenticeship. 

The real world will come knocking soon enough, unfortunately you won't be prepared.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I was working out of field and hadn't taken a job from the hall in five years but still kept my dues up paying a year in advance every January. One year I forgot and by mid January I got a nasty letter, a fine for being late and inferring that I was some type of a lowlife for not being up on my dues.
I quit.
That was the final straw, I was tired of being told who to vote for and having no voice on any real subjects. IBEW is no longer a trade union, they are just a source of funding and votes for the democratic party. Why should I spend my dues to support gun control and other policies that I find reprehensible??


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

active1 said:


> You must not be familiar with the concept of being a troll.


You got me there. :icon_wink:




> The sponsoring show signs a contract with the convention center included in that is a requirement that all electrical work is to be done by the contracted EC. The show then sells spaces to vendors with the same provisions. Some areas even have clear laws about who can touch show electrical.....


That was a great speech but you didn't answer my question. I was talking specifically about this quote below. I know it doesn't happen anymore, but the way you described this, it's almost like it's a badge of honor for the IBEW to behave this way. I'll ask plainly: Do you condone this behavior? If given the chance, would you participate in it yourself? Or is this the kind of thing that needs to be condemned? 



active1 said:


> The foreman start blowing a whistle.
> Then gets on a radio and says "EVERY JW IN THIS HALL IMMEDIATELY STOP AND COME TO BOOTH #.....".
> There would be 100+ JW's standing all around the booth.
> The security would drag off and 86 (permanently ban) the guy trying to do the work.
> The foreman would tell the booth vendor they are now going to pay 1 hour labor for every JW there (100+).


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

telsa said:


> New York is a union bastion... as is my California.
> 
> Trump wants to massively expand infrastructure investment... ALL of it at Davis-Bacon wage rates.
> 
> ...


Texas ruled that even handling of modules must be done by electricians under the supervision of a journeyman and master electrician. I guess too many roofers were getting in on it and subbing out the final connections. Plenty of violations to go around they finally addressed it.

Sent from my SM-G360T using Tapatalk


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Let me put it in a way MTW can understand.

MTW, Billy Bob, Bubba J, Cletus, Jerry Lee, Jed, Otis, & Jim Bob working for one of them nice ECs. The kind that let you take a break every few hours and gives them everything but hand tools to do the work. 
You all are roping the largest house on the West side of your county.
Between nailing plastic boxes, drilling, pullin romex, and grabbin a$$ things are going well. You get word from the office one of youalls going to be unemployed soon.
The work is fine but, but no need for all 9. Could be at lunch, could be 2:00, Maybe the end of tomorrow or the weeks end. Well it's just construction.

Your crew sees laborer Wilbur with some of you material try to slip by and go upstairs. Cletus says "going upstairs to see what is goin on".

Here's Wilbur roughin in some receptacles. Cleatus says "what the hell you doing Wilbur". Wilbur "The owner paid me to put this in on my lunch break, and I got some more to do after work". Cleatus calls "MTW, Billy Bob, Bubba J, Jerry Lee, Jed, Otis, & Jim Bob. Stop what you're doin and get up here"

So would MTW stay downstairs because he does not want to engage in actions that may threaten others? Safe space?


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

active1 said:


> Let me put it in a way MTW can understand.
> 
> MTW, Billy Bob, Bubba J, Cletus, Jerry Lee, Jed, Otis, & Jim Bob working for one of them nice ECs. The kind that let you take a break every few hours and gives them everything but hand tools to do the work.
> You all are roping the largest house on the West side of your county.
> ...


You got that rite brother


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

active1 said:


> Let me put it in a way MTW can understand.
> 
> MTW, Billy Bob, Bubba J, Cletus, Jerry Lee, Jed, Otis, & Jim Bob working for one of them nice ECs. The kind that let you take a break every few hours and gives them everything but hand tools to do the work.
> You all are roping the largest house on the West side of your county.
> ...



Totally not plausible. No way there's 9 guys roughing in a house. No wonder there's layoffs coming.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

I just recently worked with a guy that started his own company trying to get the residential and small commercial work a lot of the other EC's don't want. 

Came up through the apprenticeship and everything. As an owner, he plasters IBEW stickers all over his truck and shirts. He really puts forth the effort to make sure guys have the tools and PPE they need or request to get the job done quickly and safely.

Talking to him some of the trash have come through and really done him wrong. Stolen tools, half-a$$ing the work, little to no production, and one JIW went and pissed off the GC and walked off the job, and he lost a contract of up to 40 restaurants. He almost didn't put in the call I took because they've been burned so many times, all the good guys are keeping busy elsewhere. After I finished his short call I took a permanent call, and he rang wanting me back.

It's really sad to me that he's gotten so many sub-standard guys that he's hesitant to put in anymore calls, and this is a guy that really holds the IBEW in high regard. I just hope he can find a few more solid people to help him get his business off the ground.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

TGGT said:


> I just recently worked with a guy that started his own company trying to get the residential and small commercial work a lot of the other EC's don't want.
> 
> Came up through the apprenticeship and everything. As an owner, he plasters IBEW stickers all over his truck and shirts. He really puts forth the effort to make sure guys have the tools and PPE they need or request to get the job done quickly and safely.
> 
> ...



Yeah it sucks he has to deal with that.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Switchgear277 said:


> I started this tread for union brothers to talk about how to stay strong and unite ,
> 
> .


Understood Switch

So i'd urge you to consider the raw guttural concept of '_union_' means uniting , not _alienating_. The power of collectivism is strong, it literally embodies the USA's strength via UNITED.

Further, you are dying, along with this sole force being whittled away, and yes you can play political blame games (_my fav pass time too_) , but what you really need is advocates , numbers in your back pocket.

In short, you need rouge EC's like _myself_, and the _many_ here reading this, that you folks are on the ropes, and each of these threads goes this egotistical '*We're better than you*" shtick isn't helping, isn't selling out there, and quite frankly creates yet another nail in the union coffin every time it's written.

just my humble _rat_ opinion
:whistling2:
~CS~


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

If you want to be the best electrician, don't mind the possibility of some travel, like construction and working for someone else, then the IBEW is the best way to go. You just can't beat the education, compensation and benefit package. IMHO

Keep your head down, your mouth shut, do a good job and don't get caught up in all the politics and bull chit.

If you want fellowship and brotherhood, go to church.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe it's too late for trade show comments but, I have been on many of those.
The pre wiring is installed according to the orders we have during setup.
There could be several booths that didn't order power. Not every one asks or needs it.
We would run a 20 amp cord out to someone that wants two 300 watt lights, a 500 watt receptacle. The person might have 1000 watts of lighting and really use 1000 watts of receptacle load. That's cool.
Guy next to him "forgot to order" or whatever excuse. He plugs in another 500 watts and uses 300 watts of receptacle load.
Breaker trips, two guys go out searching for the problem.
Other people that paid can get setup due to greedy guy.
Rinse and repeat for 200 or more booths.

You have to establish that you run a tight venue or the weasels we'll take advantage. 
We had people bring in flat cords, not unroll them and use them for a large load. Yes they usually are discovered while they are melting and before combustion but not all of the time.
Power thieves are not the nice smiling models, they are usually total jackasses and try the same crap every year. You get to know them. I'm sure they try this at every show they go to and overall make out very well.

We had no problem helping someone that would ask, get them a 3way, or they are new to the show world and they work for someone that just didn't know or forgot to order power.

I suspect there is more to that Vegas show story. 
You have to keep up with the vendors or can lose buckets of money.
The contractor relies on his guys policing the show.
Or,
Maybe I just missed the whole point of the story.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> In short, you need rouge EC's like _myself_, and the _many_ here reading this, that you folks are on the ropes, and each of these threads goes this egotistical '*We're better than you*" shtick isn't helping, isn't selling out there, and quite frankly creates yet another nail in the union coffin every time it's written.
> 
> just my humble _rat_ opinion
> :whistling2:
> ~CS~


If I agree with Steve than you know it's gotta be true. 

Switchgear277 hasn't even started working in the union yet, but he's already talking about how much more money he will make and better pension and vacations, while literally telling others they will starve.

That attitude right there is helping to destroy the IBEW.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Jeez Hax, we _agree_? hold my calls while i run out and buy a lotto ticket...:laughing:~CS~:thumbup:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

active1 said:


> Don't understand why non-union people come to the IBEW page except to stir the pot or to vent about them not being included.
> 
> MTW you missed the point of my posts.
> The reduced membership is partly due to no more organized crime and physical standing up to fight for the work.
> ...


 Active . I have read a lot of your various posts and have not 
found them to be out of line...but this one kind of borders that.

Read the moderators post (Nathan) about ET , union topics.
The Union thread was provided provided for union topics to be
discussed; relevant topics that effect their work and lives. This is
an electricians talk forum and not , as you put it , "an IBEW site".

There are many non union guys on the fence , attempting to get
a look see inside labor unions from the outside. They may be
seriously considering membership and IMO , the attitude that SEEMS
to permeate , union attitudes to non union workers , is hardly the
way to build on membership. 

I would say that if someone absolutely cannot stand the concept of labor
unions , union themes etc , then they have the option of staying out of the forum...to have the us vs them mentality is probably what is turning 
guys off from attempting to join. It starts looking more like a club attitude rather than a concerted effort @ unionizing a workforce.

That's counterproductive to the union philosophy of building membership
as opposed to watching it go down year after year and is probably one
of the reasons unions are losing political clout while right to work is
overtaking legislation.

Just sayin.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Agreed. The posts that active1 and switchgear have made in this thread have done more to hurt the IBEW than to help.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You can add all the manpower to your ranks you want, you need to add the contractors too, they provide the work.

That will probably never happen. There are way too many difficulties for most small shops when it comes to dealing with the myriad of locals, especially if you straddle coverage areas between multiple locals.

Even most of the Union guys when they decide to open their own business do not go union.

Make it easier for contractors to do business and more contractors will be open to the idea of becoming signatory.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I would encourage the IBEW create some manner of attraction , or at the very least advocates of EC's like myself then Switch

Show us the unions are_ swingin' for us _ , and you'll have more a voice publicly and politically

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I would encourage the IBEW create some manner of attraction , or at the very least advocates of EC's like myself then Switch
> 
> Show us the unions are_ swingin' for us _ , and you'll have more a voice publicly and politically
> 
> ~CS~


It's a vicious circle. The union is made up of the members, and those members are only in the union for themselves. So when you tell them they have to make a concession to get more contractors interested, they aren't willing. They see it as a win, but in the long run it's a loss.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

The auto industry is a perfect example of that. For instance, before they closed the Ford Motor plant in Mahwah, NJ they asked (begged) for concessions from the UAW in the plant. They stood their ground and refused. The rest is history.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Switched said:


> You can add all the manpower to your ranks you want, you need to add the contractors too, they provide the work.
> 
> That will probably never happen. There are way too many difficulties for most small shops when it comes to dealing with the myriad of locals, especially if you straddle coverage areas between multiple locals.
> 
> ...


When I opened my own small business in 2001 , I was willing to sign 
@ Mentor Ohio local. They did not seem interested , plus they said I would not be able to work on jobs (as owner).That was a turn off cause I enjoy working as electrician and now in hindsight , I really like field work more 
than admin work. 

So I did not join.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Yeah it sucks he has to deal with that.


We do good work, they can get more work, we bargain for higher wages. We do poor work, there will be nobody to bargain with.


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## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Ok drama queen


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We use to do shows at 2 convention centers, both were strong union. On my first show I was carrying a case in and the teamsters stopped and told me we got that I said it is a small Pelican case I can handle it, I was told no we will get it, being a dummy I said thanks I got it. The A-hole got in my face and said he would take it or I would be thrown out. I relented, then I was hit for two men $100.00.

Next came the IBEW electrician and they got pissy because I plugged in my display. We had paid for a 2 gang drop. I told him I was a master electrician and an IBEW member and could reasonably handle plugging in a PC and large screen monitor (which cost me another 100.00 to get in the building). I was told as an IBEW electrician I surely could understand when I was told not to F*CKING plug in a cord I was not to plug in a cord.

Everyone at the show bitched to the organizer and the next year they pulled the show to a open shop center.

Tactics like this to those not familiar with the union only hurt the cause.

The union has in some cases been it's own worst enemy. All the good acts in the world can be destroyed in seconds by a few strong arm goons, that for the most part are the turds of the local spending their career warming the bench, all their training is good for is connecting extension cords.

This type of tactics are blown up and the public thinks all union members are goons, not good for the cause.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

The Union _busters_ blew through my area a few decades ago. 

After much ado, all the union shops are _closed _now

They actually have a tour ,along with aged guide, of a larger facility here that _explains it all _to the kiddies

It's a sad thing too, even _sadder _when the thought of being part of that food chain kicks in

~CS~


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