# Felony Conviction



## JayWater (Apr 25, 2009)

Im taKIng the test for the union on May 13th, ive been convicted of a felony a couple of years ago when i was 19.. ive paid my dues and changed my ways..On my paper i put down my record on my information.. so did they already see it?? should i be worried about it??

my felony by the way is e felony criminal mischief


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

I don't know about NY but here in MA you would have to go before the Board of Electricians when it came time to be Licensed, most likely they'd make you wait a bit longer to test. And security work would be a no-no as well.

Tom


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JayWater said:


> felony criminal mischief


What is that, how serious was it?

This can make a difference but as noted and secured jobs are out in Wasington DC that is a large portion of the work.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

are you now, or have you or any member of your family ever been a member of the communist party, or any fascist organization whose purpose is to overthrow the United States government by any means ?

where were you on the night of december 30, 1962 ?

have you ever taken illegal narcotics ?

there are lots of things that will make it hard to get licensed or getting a security clearance, but its a crap shoot. all you can do is apply and see what happens. be persistant in re-applying if you get rejected.


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## JayWater (Apr 25, 2009)

Thanks but what security? Why would I work in dc?


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## JayWater (Apr 25, 2009)

Thanks but what security? Why would I work in dc?


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

You will limit yourself to certain contractors I guess. If you are Union, you may travel to work. 

Maybe a call to the Local will help. Is there a web page with licensing requirements in your area?

Tom


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

What exactly is "felony criminal mischief"?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> What exactly is "felony criminal mischief"?


 I would like to know what it is also.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

JayWater said:


> Thanks but what security? Why would I work in dc?


 
Welcome to post 911, many sites that have any link to ANY government organization require a contractor level clearance, banks and financial institutions, data centers. Felony conviction will exclude you from many locations.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Be upfront and honest on job apps. I've seen dudes lose their jobs 6months after being hired because their college transcrips didn't jive.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

william1978 said:


> I would like to know what it is also.


Well its this http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/criminal_mischief.html So when you hire this guy your not looking at John Gotti just a problem kid , But hes not doing jails today or schools or anything state related down town so good luck . Take care


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

i'm currently working on a BIG jail addition now. had to pass a security clearence ( again ) to get acsess to work in the existing jail. i'd say 50 % of our crew could not pass the security check. oh yeah, we laid off 3 guys fri; they could NOT get clearence. hmmm.... mistakes follow you for a long time.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well Paul in my time ive only done two prisons and during these projects the state brought out trustees to work with us . 

They helped us do our electrical work like digging and underground .
We had a armed guards with us to keep the piece but most of the inmates liked to work never had a problem ever.

My best leadman was a trustee 20 year coke dealer who wassss a master elect in south fla. he had a shop down there that was before his conviction ! In florida the inmates work and also yur state does this too?

The state gave us help to save money and it worked .Take care


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

nick, they wont let inmates work on the construction part of the jail. when it come time for the county to start moving in then the inmates provide the labor. moving office furniture and such. this is a jail not prison; no long term prisoners here. jails are big bizness . they charge other counties to house their inmates. this jail is appx. 120 mil. elec is about $11 mil. good work !!! paul


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well Paul the prisons we did had your typical natural florida security system .
A surrounding enclosed swamp loaded with gators to boot one road into prison one mile long one lane only ! this was during construction . 

your are not getting out if ya do its MEAL TIME for the LOCALS!!! take care


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

felony criminal mischief = blowing up the jack in the box sign, cutting the head off bob's big boy and putting a pumpkin there, stealing parking meters, etc. ?http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/criminal_mischief.html


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

just wondering, does a felony stay on there forever ??? forever is a pretty long time for what amounts to a prank by a kid.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if he had been 17 when it happened, it might be possible to have it expunged. however, I believe that at 19 you are an adult (I could be wrong about this). In any case, he would have to contact the court in question or a lawyer to figure that out I guess.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

wildleg said:


> if he had been 17 when it happened, it might be possible to have it expunged. however, I believe that at 19 you are an adult (I could be wrong about this). In any case, he would have to contact the court in question or a lawyer to figure that out I guess.


OH YA it always comes up when your running for political office or at jury duty it kinda helps . ya get to go home early . Take care


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

nick said:


> Well its this http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/criminal_mischief.html So when you hire this guy your not looking at John Gotti just a problem kid , But hes not doing jails today or schools or anything state related down town so good luck . Take care


 Thanks nick. :thumbsup:


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

william1978 said:


> Thanks nick. :thumbsup:


Well since the economy is screwed our company has been doing schools lots of them this year .Its like now we need more schools no money but lets build more schools good economic planing .

The first thing ya do is they take your finger prints then they do a background check anything found your gone !! best to yas


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Several years ago in Loudoun County a 18 year old young man and his 2 17 year old buddies decided to pull what they thought was a prank on the Christian high school the 18 year old had been expelled from. The sat a trash can in a room and sat it on fire. They thought flooding the room when the sprinkler system went off would be funny. Sprinkler system did not work.

Burnt the school down, this was during the church burning era in the 90's and Congress had passed a church burning law making this a federal felony.

The 2-17 years old boys were in jail till they were 18 and had their records expunged. The 18 year went to federal prison for 12-20 minimum jail time he must serve was 12 years.

That magic date of your 18 B-Day makes a difference between being a stupid kid and being a stupid man with a major record.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

brian john said:


> Sprinkler system did not work.Burnt the school down


  Wow.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

As an employer if I hire someone who is a fellon and he goes back and breaks into a customers house that i sent him to and I did not do a background check I can be held criminally negligent.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

rewire said:


> As an employer if I hire someone who is a fellon and he goes back and breaks into a customers house that i sent him to and I did not do a background check I can be held criminally negligent.


Is that a State contracting law in Missouri? Are you responsible for an employee during non-working hours?


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## davis9 (Mar 21, 2009)

He said e felony criminal mischief, intentional damage of more than 250 dollars in NY. Not sure how much more than 250, but still a felony but not sure if that is a big problem for him or not.

http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/2-PenalLaw/145/145-05.pdf

Tom


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Is that a State contracting law in Missouri? Are you responsible for an employee during non-working hours?


That is in the USA, if the customer hires a lawyer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> Is that a State contracting law in Missouri? Are you responsible for an employee during non-working hours?


Does the lawyer representing the homeowner care? No. _Defending_ yourself still costs money no matter the outcome.


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## rlc3854 (Dec 30, 2007)

brian john said:


> That is in the USA, if the customer hires a lawyer.


So you are saying this is the law of the land in all fifty states? It would be interesting to see how many cases would/have actually stood up in a court of law. A person who commits burglary is the responsible party. Now if that burglary/robbery is committed while on the job I can see the contractor being held liable. As stated here before by several members, "hire a lawyer and you can sue anybody".


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rlc3854 said:


> So you are saying this is the law of the land in all fifty states? It would be interesting to see how many cases would/have actually stood up in a court of law. A person who commits burglary is the responsible party. Now if that burglary/robbery is committed while on the job I can see the contractor being held liable. As stated here before by several members, "hire a lawyer and you can sue anybody".


In a law suit, you can be held liable, I insinuated all 50 states but only in states that have 3nd party liability. You knew there was a bad apple, and this bad apple affected the other apples, and next thing you know you are paying out cash.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

There's no way I'll ever hire an ex-felon. Simple as that. I don't really care what the circumstances were, or how long ago it was. I really don't care. Too many fish in the sea to even take a chance. The commission of a felony is a fundamental character flaw. A character flaw I choose not to deal with. God might forgive men, but I don't.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Ayn Rand was right...



> We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.





> The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws


Next thing you know "Teabagging" will be illegal too.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> There's no way I'll ever hire an ex-felon. Simple as that. I don't really care what the circumstances were, or how long ago it was. I really don't care. Too many fish in the sea to even take a chance. The commission of a felony is a fundamental character flaw. A character flaw I choose not to deal with. God might forgive men, but I don't.


I'm with you on this. As kids, we did some stuff, but other kids well... they held satanic rituals in the woods and killed an aquaintence and blamed the devil. Some kids hang out maybe drink in a park or on a beach and have an "illegal" bonfire... but others took bb guns and shot out the windows of 50 cars or played mailbox baseball... 

Jay might get in if he has what we call a "rabbi" in local 3. Other than that, they're going to interview 5x as many applicants as they'll accept. Keep in mind this isn't Washington DC, but a LOT of work in NYC is financailly related, school work, brokerages and the local generally does not like people thay cannot send anywhere.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

rlc3854 said:


> So you are saying this is the law of the land in all fifty states? It would be interesting to see how many cases would/have actually stood up in a court of law. A person who commits burglary is the responsible party. Now if that burglary/robbery is committed while on the job I can see the contractor being held liable. As stated here before by several members, "hire a lawyer and you can sue anybody".


Well not being a law buff but id say if a worker in your company commits a crime like it just might get into the local news or the paper .

Meaning if they just happen to say Joe worked for Harrys electric your bussiness relations to the public is effected .

Its kinda like the school buss drivers in florida they dont do a background check they just say they do it .
They dont have the time or money too.

Then the child molester now driving the buss attacks a kid and now everyone is wanting heads to roll this actually happen here! 
They even found some that are not citizens one did not have a greencard but drove a school bus whats that .Take care be safe keep those radios off the jobs .:thumbsup:


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Does the lawyer representing the homeowner care? No. _Defending_ yourself still costs money no matter the outcome.


 
Only an idiot defends themself in court.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Hands down almost every felon I have hired has been a great employee; in a lot of cases a FANTASTIC employee. I have absolutely no qualms about hiring felons, but I do screen them and there have been a few I turned back. There are also some jobs I do that wont let them on site, but for the most part they have done well for me and its easy to find a crew that wants them.

Generally speaking they are good employees, are grateful for a job and chance, and they make very good hands.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Hands down almost every felon I have hired has been a great employee; in a lot of cases a FANTASTIC employee. ..........


 
Of all the people I've worked with in the past, ex-cons are willing to go that extra mile to make that effort to 'get back on track'. There have been some, however, that never got past the first couple weeks and slipped back into their old habits.

But the ones that _truly _do want to get their lives back together do not feel the world owes them something....... instead they must prove themselves worthy.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

480sparky said:


> ...There have been some, however, that never got past the first couple weeks and slipped back into their old habits....


The truth be told, there are lots of non-felons that fall into that category, so its worth it for me to give them a chance.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I worked with a company many years ago that hired a lot of guys from work release. I think I can safely say that there are just as many crappy employees from jail as not, so I try to take people on a case by case basis, and not judge them. because, _there, but for the grace of God,  go I_


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I worked with a company many years ago that hired a lot of guys from work release. I think I can safely say that there are just as many crappy employees from jail as not, so I try to take people on a case by case basis, and not judge them. because, _there, but for the grace of God, go I_


If you are a law breaker YES..I know I know there are some innocent folks in jail.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

If it were not for crack head and junkies I would not be able to hire American ditch diggers.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

rlc3854 said:


> Is that a State contracting law in Missouri? Are you responsible for an employee during non-working hours?


 The more my business grows the more I learn about exposure to liability and how to reduce it. I am surprised on how much I need to watch.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

rewire said:


> The more my business grows the more I learn about exposure to liability and how to reduce it. I am surprised on how much I need to watch.


 
Ain't that the truth.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

rewire said:


> The more my business grows the more I learn about exposure to liability and how to reduce it. I am surprised on how much I need to watch.


I'm not sure what the masters license requirements are in the states, or even most of the other provinces here in Canada, but in Ontario you need to know several pieces of legislation that outline a lot of the things that companies can be held liable for.

I just got a copy of the study material for the masters exam. And yeah, there are a lot of laws that place liability on a contractor and every year the red tape grows.

As far as hiring someone with a record goes? I wouldn't, and it really doesn't matter what I feel about the guy, its just that far too much work I run into requires security screenings. Being a government town, its just the nature of the work in commercial, hell some of the private companies have security requirements now days...


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

JayWater said:


> I'm taking the test for the union on May 13th, ive been convicted of a felony a couple of years ago when i was 19.. ive paid my dues and changed my ways..On my paper i put down my record on my information.. so did they already see it?? should i be worried about it??
> 
> my felony by the way is e felony criminal mischief


 
You did the right thing don't hide it cause it will bite you in the ass. I wouldn't worry about it. I too have an E felony from 07 did 4 months on Rikers for Writing a bunch off bad checks on my account and then offcoruse they bounce. I payed my dues learned my lesson. The main thing is Me and you don't have an felony thats either tied to drugs, or Violence. They are a Non Violent felony. If the ? comes up in the interview just be truth full and explain yourself but keep it short. I am taking the test at local 3 in flushing May 18th.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I was listening to the radio as I usually do, and was listening to a station that broadcasts from NYC. I heard a commercial from Ben Franklin Plumbing Services, which doesn't operate in my area, and they quite plainly advertise that they don't send out "tattooed felons" to work on your home.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Peter D said:


> I was listening to the radio as I usually do, and was listening to a station that broadcasts from NYC. I heard a commercial from Ben Franklin Plumbing Services, which doesn't operate in my area, and they quite plainly advertise that they don't send out "tattooed felons" to work on your home.


its comforting to know that they only send out felons without tattoos, or individuals for which a felony conviction is yet to be successful.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wildleg said:


> its comforting to know that they only send out felons without tattoos, or individuals for which a felony conviction is yet to be successful.


 
Based on some of the scary looking dudes I see in supply houses driving residential service vans, I think this commercial may go a long way.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> If you are a law breaker YES..I know I know there are some innocent folks in jail.


True but after watching several shows on the subject they were just there on rape charges before the use of DNA testing. That and the fact they looked like the actual attacker.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> If it were not for crack head and junkies I would not be able to hire American ditch diggers.


 
Wow that says a lot for your crew.


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## Two-headed boy (Apr 21, 2008)

This is a good thread.
I am a convicted felon so I find this interesting.
My felony was from 1991 when I was 19 and I used a fake ID to try to buy beer, couldnt afford a lawyer because I was emancipated when I was 16 and got convicted. Never been in any trouble before or since.

I am an accomplished person and I sometimes take it personally when I am pre-judged by people who dont know me. I know who I am and what I am about and thats important to me.

I am a AMGA certified rock climbing guide/instructor (lived in Colorado my entire life minus the past 7 months) and I have donated a lot of my time taking convicted felons climbing (mostly addicts) and showing them there is better stuff to do than drugs and have made some life long friends, one that will be in my wedding party next year.

Just wanted to share that


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Two-headed boy said:


> This is a good thread.
> I am a convicted felon so I find this interesting.
> My felony was from 1991 when I was 19 and I used a fake ID to try to buy beer, couldnt afford a lawyer because I was emancipated when I was 16 and got convicted. Never been in any trouble before or since.
> 
> ...


Yeah, well... good for you.

BUT... if you applied for a job from me today, I still would not hire you. I'm sure many people would. I just wouldn't be one of them.


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## Two-headed boy (Apr 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, well... good for you.
> 
> BUT... if you applied for a job from me today, I still would not hire you. I'm sure many people would. I just wouldn't be one of them.


What makes you think I would accept a job from you? There are plenty of fish in the sea.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Two-headed boy said:


> What makes you think I would accept a job from you? There are plenty of fish in the sea.


Just saying. I'm not offering you a job anyhow. Just an example. Those of us with few employees don't have the luxury of having a guy that we can't send anywhere. I could not, for instance, send you to two of my biggest customers, which is what would basically disqualify you from employment by me. I'm essentially using you as an example for others who are felons to understand clearly that some contractors cannot or will not hire them.

Fish in the sea? ... that's usually what I'd expect to hear during good times. Times are tough now from the candidate employee perspective, so I'd highly encourage everyone to keep squeaky clean. There are not so many fish in the sea after all.


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## Two-headed boy (Apr 21, 2008)

I can understand where you are coming from a lot more clearly now and I apologize if I came across poorly.

I have not had any slow down in work in Nebraska. We just hired one more last week and are going to be hiring another in a few more weeks. I do read about how bad the economy is but it has not seemed to affect my little world.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Wow that says a lot for your crew.


 It says a lot more about our American culture and white people than anything else. The only white people that apply for labor positions are either ex-cons, ex-drug addicts and maybe not even ex... or just plain Alcoholics.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> It says a lot more about our American culture and white people than anything else. The only white people that apply for labor positions are either ex-cons, ex-drug addicts and maybe not even ex... or just plain Alcoholics.


 
Maybe you should offer better pay or benefits.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

randomkiller said:


> Maybe you should offer better pay or benefits.


Really? So what would you suggest as an appropriate pay and benefit package for unskilled labor?


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> Really? So what would you suggest as an appropriate pay and benefit package for unskilled labor?


 UAW says about $70/hr


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Really? So what would you suggest as an appropriate pay and benefit package for unskilled labor?


 
I have no idea for your area but they fill those jobs in this area, and not all of the workers are guacamoleans.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*For arguments sake...*



randomkiller said:


> I have no idea for your area but they fill those jobs in this area, and not all of the workers are guacamoleans.


Only because you don’t have as many as we do, and besides we don’t have guidos to fill those position. So how much work do you get done for a bottle of instant tan, a tube of hair gel, and a muscle shirt? 

Sorry a little Texas humor…

I think you are dodging the question. What percentage of union scale should be enough for unskilled labor, what benefits (if any) should they get? 

If union scale is $30/hour plus bennies and fringes, what percentage of that is appropriate for unskilled labor?

I think unskilled labor scale for Davis/Bacon is $7.50 but I pay WAY more than that, but I am not sure I am paying enough. How much is enough?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

[sound effects] Crickets chirping.......... [/sound effects]


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Only because you don’t have as many as we do, and besides we don’t have guidos to fill those position. So how much work do you get done for a bottle of instant tan, a tube of hair gel, and a muscle shirt?
> 
> Sorry a little Texas humor…
> 
> ...


Your original questions were: 


> It says a lot more about our American culture and white people than anything else. The only white people that apply for labor positions are either ex-cons, ex-drug addicts and maybe not even ex... or just plain Alcoholics.





> Really? So what would you suggest as an appropriate pay and benefit package for unskilled labor?


Your complaint is that the only people who apply for labor positions are ex-cons, drug addicts or alcoholics. They're obviously not setting their sights too high, and with good reasons - it's not likely they have a valuable skillset, and, even if they did it's even less likely they'll land a higher paying job. 

If you want better people, you have to pay better money, it's as simple as that. You pay WAY more than $7.50, but that's a little vague. Is WAY more $8.50? $9.75? $20.00? Here a 1st year apprentice is about $12.00 + fringes, no problem attracting very competant people, but then again there's a future.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I did not understand your answer, are you saying that $12.50 is enough to start an unskilled ditch digger, or are you saying if I want a quality ditch digger I should start them at $20?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm saying if the pay / position offered is only attracting illegals and alcoholics, you have to pay more to attract people who AREN'T that desperate.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm saying if the pay / position offered is only attracting illegals and alcoholics, you have to pay more to attract people who AREN'T that desperate.


Oh, I thought you were going to answer my sincere question.

Here let me give you a little piece of information to help you formulate an answer:

White boys (without criminal records) wont dig ditches for $12, but I can find Mexicans all day that will do it for $10. I don't pay anyone less than $10.

So I will ask again, how much is a "fair wage" for unskilled labor.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PE before you ask this question I think you should post.

What a high end Electrical forman makes
electrician makes
1st year help makes.


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## Two-headed boy (Apr 21, 2008)

As said before and I will confirm my belief in this - all anyone really wants is to believe there is going to be growth and success in thier future. In my opinion it is not so much about how much you pay someone as it is about how much you can teach someone and make them feel like they are not in a dead end job and there is room for growth. I know labor is labor but everyone wants to feel important to some level.


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> White boys (without criminal records) wont dig ditches for $12, but I can find Mexicans all day that will do it for $10. I don't pay anyone less than $10.
> 
> So I will ask again, how much is a "fair wage" for unskilled labor.


What part of Texas? I've been a few places in Texas that 10 bucks an hour to do unskilled labor would be plenty to live on.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm not sure about crackheads and drug addicts, but I know for a fact that alchoholics have to eat. I've worked for several alchoholics over the years, and had all of the above work for me. What has always amazed me was the ability of (what I would describe as) successful drug addicts/alchoholics to cover up their problem. For general labor, in and around general work, I really don't have any problem hiring any of the above to dig ditches (at least not around gas or power lines). I had a backhoe operator I had to fire about 30 yrs ago because someone saw him drinking his lunch, otherwise you would have never known he had a problem. I work with a couple of people that do not have substance abuse problems, but are as difficult to work with as any abuser because of their emotional problems (don't know cause). I guess what I'm trying to say is, depending on the circumstances of the job/jobsite, sometimes it doesn't really matter, and sometimes workers with family/emotional problems are worse to have around than abusers (at least abusers have a predictable pattern of behaviour). I worked resi a long time ago and there was a beautiful girl with a roach coach (decent food) that used to deal a little coke. I worked for a great company 20 yrs ago and we used to drink our lunches (often). Times have changed, but I don't know if people have changed so much. other than working dot/doe/gov and such jobs, I think the dependability of the worker is more individual than it is as to what their problem is (face it, sooner or later, in one way or another, you WILL be dealing with their problems, whether its absenteeism or attitude or whatever), the question boils down to this: is it manageable.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

MF Dagger said:


> What part of Texas? I've been a few places in Texas that 10 bucks an hour to do unskilled labor would be plenty to live on.


Me too but I dont live in that part of Texas any more now I live in the expensive part...



Two-headed boy said:


> As said before and I will confirm my belief in this - all anyone really wants is to believe there is going to be growth and success in thier future. In my opinion it is not so much about how much you pay someone as it is about how much you can teach someone and make them feel like they are not in a dead end job and there is room for growth. I know labor is labor but everyone wants to feel important to some level.


 Oh so not only do I have to pay a ditch digger a lot, but I have to make sure they are happy too? Jeeze this is getting complicated, just when I thought paying somebody a lot of money to dig holes in the ground would make them happy, now I have to be a life coach too?



brian john said:


> PE before you ask this question I think you should post. What a high end Electrical forman makes electrician makes 1st year help makes.


 For arguments sake assume Union J-man wages at $30...I should not have to break down the scale to talk about ditch diggers. 

Its a good question, what is a fair wage for a ditch digger without all the hand holding, life coaching and group hugs? I can hire Mexicans all day for $10 and hour but is that fair?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I have determined that there is a point of diminishing returns with regard to pay. Slightly higher than market rate pay will normally yeild slightly better workmen. Go one step beyond that in pay, and that will normally just result in a higher payroll for the same result. You get what you pay for, indeed. BUT... if you throw your wallet at labor, you often simply overpaid.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Oh, I thought you were going to answer my sincere question.
> 
> Here let me give you a little piece of information to help you formulate an answer:
> 
> ...


The information you provided is worthless. Your answer isn't a static number. That is, if you want to employ "white boys without criminal records."


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> The information you provided is worthless. Your answer isn't a static number. That is, if you want to employ "white boys without criminal records."


Oh so it's my fault you won't answer? That is pretty much the same union spin I always get when I ask the tough questions. Is sure is funny how fast you can tell us all what is fair for you and the other union boys but don't have clue what is fair for everyone else.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Oh so it's my fault you won't answer?


Who is pointing fingers here but you?
You want me to define fair in Texas. 



> That is pretty much the same union spin I always get when I ask the tough questions.


When you ask a tough question I can't answer, hell will freeze over. In the meantime, you keep hiring those Mexicans who dig for 10 bucks an hour, call it fair because it fits your definition, and call it a day. 

But when you all bitch & moan about how nobody can make any money because you continue to do what makes you the most money right now, while scratching your head as to why to can't find good paying American customers... or legal American workers willing to break their backs for your generous wages, then we can talk about how everything you and most other contractors and business's are doing is just diggin a deeper grave by having absolutely no minimum standard. 



> Is sure is funny how fast you can tell us all what is fair for you and the other union boys but don't have clue what is fair for everyone else.


I give you a 4 on the goad scale.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Electrician $60.00 an hour after taxes.

Carpenter-$21.00
Plumber-$20.00
Drywall-$19.00
Laborer-$12.00


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Who is pointing fingers here but you?
> You want me to define fair in Texas.


Why not you define fair everywhere else…. Or does the ‘I’ in IBEW stand for something else? 



> When you ask a tough question I can't answer, hell will freeze over.


Must be cold down there because you still have not answered it. Everything else you said is just misdirection…


> In the meantime, you keep hiring those Mexicans who dig for 10 bucks an hour, call it fair because it fits your definition, and call it a day.


 Never said I did that, what I said was I could hire them for that. What I did say I did was hire ex-cons and alkies…go read the early posts and consider the words I used.


> But when you all bitch & moan about how nobody can make any money because you continue to do what makes you the most money right now, while scratching your head as to why to can't find good paying American customers... or legal American workers willing to break their backs for your generous wages, then we can talk about how everything you and most other contractors and business's are doing is just diggin a deeper grave by having absolutely no minimum standard.


You all, as in Texans too? But I thought you could not define what was fair for us, but you will be there to rub our noses in it if we don’t figure it our for ourselves? You need a clue like Britney needs panties…


brian john said:


> ... Laborer-$12.00


 That sounds fair to me too but I could not hire a white kid to dig ditches for that to save my life, unless he was out on parole or in rehab. White boys don’t want to be laborers around here.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Why not you define fair everywhere else…. Or does the ‘I’ in IBEW stand for something else?


Everywhere else? That's pretty absolute. 




> Must be cold down there because you still have not answered it.


It was answered. Don't blame me for your ignorance.



> Everything else you said is just misdirection… Never said I did that, what I said was I could hire them for that. What I did say I did was hire ex-cons and alkies…go read the early posts and consider the words I used. You all, as in Texans too? But I thought you could not define what was fair for us, but you will be there to rub our noses in it if we don’t figure it our for ourselves? You need a clue like Britney needs panties…


Coming from a TEXAN! (With that class A education system... :thumbsup You don't hire anyone man. When do you interview? In the 6 minutes between your message board posts? :laughing:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

You cant/wont answer the question, so I must be:

a) Ignorant
b) Not a contractor
c) Using unfair labor practices
d) All the above 

Yeah, sounds like typical radical union dribble, where all real issues problems and discussions can be solved by truing it all on the evil contractors and showing how its either their fault and its their problem to solve.

That pride is going to burn you and it has already cost you market share. Keep it up if you like the direction its taking you.


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Just saying. I'm not offering you a job anyhow. Just an example. Those of us with few employees don't have the luxury of having a guy that we can't send anywhere. I could not, for instance, send you to two of my biggest customers, which is what would basically disqualify you from employment by me. I'm essentially using you as an example for others who are felons to understand clearly that some contractors cannot or will not hire them.
> 
> Fish in the sea? ... that's usually what I'd expect to hear during good times. Times are tough now from the candidate employee perspective, so I'd highly encourage everyone to keep squeaky clean. There are not so many fish in the sea after all.


" I Didn't write that crap. Someone hacked into my accounts and wrote that. I have no problems with anyone here. I will say that if you don't hire an applicant based solely on a felony convection, well IMO thats just wrong you don't know what happened how the person has changed. yeah sure probably 20-30% will straighten there lives out,but still."


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> yIf I saw you I'd Knock you the **** out.


Awesome. I can hardly wait. My cell is (717)816-4214. Give me a jingle and we can arrange something.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> yeah so you would rather have an Scap( some illegal *allien *who's fresh off the boat) work for you for $5 an hour than an hard working American who may have made a mistake in his life. If I saw you I'd Knock you the **** out.


 
Your profile name says it all "IGNORANT", I say ignorant because the Sopranos are children of immigrants. But in you narrow minded uneducated world you cannot figure that out, much less know any history. Oh and the word is alien if you are going to slam a group you seem to know nothing about, try learning at least how to spell the word.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Just when I though LawnGuyLandSparky had taken this as far as he could into the gutter, some guy shows and picks a fight with Mark...Wow.

Hey Tony, turn it down a notch. Once you start the threats, you have lost the debate and to a large extent prove the other guy's point. I would not hire you either if you threatened to kick my arse and I have a long history of hiring ex-cons.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Just when I though LawnGuyLandSparky had taken this as far as he could into the gutter, some guy shows and picks a fight with Mark...Wow.


It's hard to take a coke head too seriously, so it's really no big deal. Empty words.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

this is getting funnier all the time

the funniest part is that someone thinks that being a supposed capo from a fictitious tv family is supposed to intimidate anyone. (dude, at least pick the name of a real crime family in ny. its not like you can't look that up on the internet)


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

wildleg said:


> this is getting funnier all the time
> 
> the funniest part is that someone thinks that being a supposed capo from a fictitious tv family is supposed to intimidate anyone. (dude, at least pick the name of a real crime family in ny. its not like you can't look that up on the internet)


 vito corleone. now there a real mafia name!:thumbsup:


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> yeah so you would rather have an Scap( some illegal allien who's fresh off the boat) work for you for $5 an hour than an hard working American _who may have made a mistake in his life_. If I saw you I'd Knock you the **** out.


2 + 2 = 5 is a mistake.

Armed robbery, larceny, distribution of CDS, sexual assault... not mistakes. :no:


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

I Didn't write that crap. Someone hacked into my accounts and wrote that. I have no problems with anyone here. I will say that if you don't hire an applicant based solely on a felony convection, well IMO thats just wrong you don't know what happened how the person has changed. yeah sure probably 20-30% will straighten there lives out,but still


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> I Didn't write that crap. Someone hacked into my accounts and wrote that. I have no problems with anyone here. I will say that if you don't hire an applicant based solely on a felony convection, well IMO thats just wrong you don't know what happened how the person has changed. yeah sure probably 20-30% will straighten there lives out,but still


That's a hoot. You know that each post is stamped with the IP of the system that it was posted from? As moderators, we can see that. You proceeded to type that post, then go right on and update your ongoing thread about trying to get back into the apprenticeship program. 

Nice try at backpedeling, but I don't believe you. Now, you're an admitted coke head, and I also think you're a bold faced liar with this "someone hacked into my account" nonsense. Best of luck in life, but if you don't straighten out and start acting like a man you're in for a tough row to hoe.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

sopranocaponyc :laughing:


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> That's a hoot. You know that each post is stamped with the IP of the system that it was posted from? As moderators, we can see that. You proceeded to type that post, then go right on and update your ongoing thread about trying to get back into the apprenticeship program.
> 
> Nice try at backpedeling, but I don't believe you. Now, you're an admitted coke head, and I also think you're a bold faced liar with this "someone hacked into my account" nonsense. Best of luck in life, but if you don't straighten out and start acting like a man you're in for a tough row to hoe.


 
1st off lets get the facts straight I was never a coke head i messed around with it from time to time, hung out with the wrong people. I hav'nt touched the stuff in over 5 years. 

My computer is on a wireless network anyone could off hacked on. I DID NOT WRITE WHAT YOU SAID I DID.

AND I will get back into the union, I've learned from mistakes in the past, and will ace the test next week.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> My computer is on a wireless network anyone could off hacked on. I DID NOT WRITE WHAT YOU SAID I DID..


Yeah, I'm sure there are tons of people within 30 feet of you (that's about the range of most wireless routers) that really really want to hack into your ElectricianTalk account and post stuff under your name. Nice try. I still think you're a big fat liar. 

Actually, that might not be completely true. You might not be fat.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

paul d. said:


> vito corleone. now there a real mafia name!:thumbsup:


 
Vito anything is a mobster name for sure.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> My computer is on a wireless network anyone could off hacked on. I DID NOT WRITE WHAT YOU SAID I DID.


Then they hacked into your recent history, found out that you have been posting here, hacked your screen name and password, and made similar dumb remarks... JUST LIKE YOU!


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## sopranocaponyc (Nov 24, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, I'm sure there are tons of people within 30 feet of you (that's about the range of most wireless routers) that really really want to hack into your ElectricianTalk account and post stuff under your name. Nice try. I still think you're a big fat liar.
> 
> Actually, that might not be completely true. You might not be fat.


 
This site was'nt the only site that i was hacked there were others, But what ever. I'm not gonna feed into this. I said what I said. So how long have you been in local 3.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Just when I though LawnGuyLandSparky had taken this as far as he could into the gutter, some guy shows and picks a fight with Mark...Wow.
> 
> Hey Tony, turn it down a notch. Once you start the threats, you have lost the debate and to a large extent prove the other guy's point. I would not hire you either if you threatened to kick my arse and I have a long history of hiring ex-cons.


I dragged this into the gutter? You're a hoot!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

sopranocaponyc said:


> 1st off lets get the facts straight I was never a coke head i messed around with it from time to time, hung out with the wrong people. I hav'nt touched the stuff in over 5 years.
> 
> My computer is on a wireless network anyone could off hacked on. I DID NOT WRITE WHAT YOU SAID I DID.
> 
> AND I will get back into the union, I've learned from mistakes in the past, and will ace the test next week.


If not there's always something else to fall back on...


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## Hopeful (Feb 11, 2013)

You should worry about it a little. You won't be allowed on some jobs. But half of construction workers in general are drug addicts and alcoholics or have some type of criminal background, so you will fit right in. You will be better off, though, staying away from crap like that. You will make more money and have a longer-lasting marriage.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Hopeful said:


> You should worry about it a little. You won't be allowed on some jobs. But half of construction workers in general are drug addicts and alcoholics or have some type of criminal background, so you will fit right in. You will be better off, though, staying away from crap like that. You will make more money and have a longer-lasting marriage.


:blink:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This thread is almost 4 years old


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