# AFCI requirements



## bigdaddy1902 (Dec 3, 2011)

Does anyone know the code referance that states kitchens and bathrooms do not need arc fault protection.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

There is no article that says the kitchen and bathrooms do not need afci. Art. 210.12 tells us what rooms they are req. in.


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## bigdaddy1902 (Dec 3, 2011)

That code does list some locations. However, it also states " similar locations" which is vague and open to interpretation. The consensus here in Denver is that kitchens and baths are exempt. I'm trying to understand why.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

bigdaddy1902 said:


> That code does list some locations. However, it also states " similar locations" which is vague and open to interpretation. The consensus here in Denver is that kitchens and baths are exempt. I'm trying to understand why.



If the location is not listed it isn't required. Most areas don't see kitchens, baths, or laundry rooms aas needing afci. Some say because those areas have gfci the afci is not required but that does not explain the lighting which also doesn't need afci in those areas. My guess is that they don't want nuisance tripping in baths & kitchens caused by fans.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

About the same argument here Denny

i hear inspectors answer with their short version_ 'anything that doesn't end in a GFI'_ in response to AFCI requirements

then there's the _'what if that bath or kitchen circuit runs through a bedroom'?_ crowd....

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> ......... My guess is that they don't want nuisance tripping in baths & kitchens caused by fans.


My guess is the CMP is slowly ramping up the requirements. First it was just bedrooms, now 3/4 the house. 2014.... maybe 2017.... everything.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> My guess is the CMP is slowly ramping up the requirements. First it was just bedrooms, now 3/4 the house. 2014.... maybe 2017.... everything.


Lets hope that by then the people who make them will insert a little better discernment into the brains of them so that they stop tripping when there is no arcing, no grounds touching neutrals, no hots touching either of the other two mentioned conductors, no damaged cables, etc. I been finding that running in close proximity to other circuits makes em flip out. That isn't right, plain and simple. I hope some of them donkey's are reading this.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> ........, no grounds touching neutrals, no hots touching either of the other two mentioned conductors,............


Yeah....... kinda silly to make a breaker that opens when there's a short.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Yeah....... kinda silly to make a breaker that opens when there's a short.


I think its kinda silly to make one that opens when there is no short, or overload, or crossed neutrals, or any of the other things I mentioned. I think it is kinda silly to make a breaker that randomly trips itself when light switches are turned from on to off, or a motor appliance or a resistive heating load is plugged in. I think its kinda silly to have a twenty amp breaker that freaks and shuts down when it has 8 amps running thru it. I think its kinda silly for anybody to try defending such a blatant ripoff device.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I think its kinda silly to make one that opens when there is no short, or overload, or crossed neutrals, or any of the other things I mentioned. I think it is kinda silly to make a breaker that randomly trips itself when light switches are turned from on to off, or a motor appliance or a resistive heating load is plugged in. I think its kinda silly to have a twenty amp breaker that freaks and shuts down when it has 8 amps running thru it. I think its kinda silly for anybody to try defending such a blatant ripoff device.



So when a hot comes in contact with the ground or neutral it's not supplied to trip?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So when a hot comes in contact with the ground or neutral it's not supplied to trip?



No, you keep trying to twist this around. I think it should not trip when a hot doesn't come into contact with ground or neutral. But afci's do exactly that. Wow, did Rewire take over your account? Your posting is almost exactly like his.....


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

The code states which rooms require AFCI protection - 210.12-, but, in my area many inspectors are for the *most part* looking at this as, "if it's not GFI protected it needs to be AFCI protected". This has been a matter of several arguements, fights, screaming matches, and everything else in-between. Unfortunatnly opinions dont matter here, only what is being enforced in your area.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> The code states which rooms require AFCI protection - 210.12-, but, in my area many inspectors are for the *most part* looking at this as, "if it's not GFI protected it needs to be AFCI protected". This has been a matter of several arguements, fights, screaming matches, and everything else in-between. Unfortunatnly opinions dont matter here, only what is being enforced in your area.



So do they want afci on the kitchen lights? IMO, it is not required and if the code wanted afci where gfci don't exist then they would say it.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> About the same argument here Denny
> 
> i hear inspectors answer with their short version_ 'anything that doesn't end in a GFI'_ in response to AFCI requirements
> 
> ...


No problem. So long as you don't leave a box/outlet in any of the required areas.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So do they want afci on the kitchen lights? IMO, it is not required and if the code wanted afci where gfci don't exist then they would say it.


 No, not in the kitchen, unless the kitchen circuit also includes the dining room area, then it is required.
I agree with your statement, I just feel like its a up-hill battle because we are all at the mercy of our local AHJ's interprtation.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the location is not listed it isn't required. Most areas don't see kitchens, baths, or laundry rooms aas needing afci. Some say because those areas have gfci the afci is not required but that does not explain the lighting which also doesn't need afci in those areas. My guess is that they don't want nuisance tripping in baths & kitchens caused by fans.


Maybe it is because a night light in the bath that has a loose connection is really not that important. ...I am being facetious, here. I think that the AFCIs, if they are deemed to be reliable, should be used.


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## Theriot (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't think they want these lights tripping when u are in the kitchen cooking with grease or getting out of a tub.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have had a very few problems with afci. One was our fault- helper mistake, the others were related to fans and vacuums. Changing the afci to a different generation afci solved those issues. Oh, I did have a small problem with Halo H99 cans tripping the afci- that was a manufacturing problem.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Theriot said:


> I don't think they want these lights tripping when u are in the kitchen cooking with grease or getting out of a tub.


That is a good point.:thumbsup:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> So do they want afci on the kitchen lights? IMO, it is not required and if the code wanted afci where gfci don't exist then they would say it.



Yes,IF they share a ckt with the bedroom or other required area.

Feed the smokes off of the basement ckt. drop one in a bedroom,now that basement ckt is required to be AFCI.

Bathroom ckt. 1 20A- feeding everything in that bath, rec GFCI.
Now,drop a rec in the bathroom closet, Now you need an AFCI.

Stupid.

I pulled 3 permits this week,for one reason. I will be replacing rec. and don't want to or feel the need to burden the home owner with $38 (+ mark up) AFCI breakers.

One job, I am changing all devices( 2 wire rec) so Pulled the permit now, Saved the home owner a bunch on AFCI breakers,Now I only need-worst case- 5 ($12) GFCI rec.. As opposed to- 5-$38 AFCI brkrs- and 5-$12 GFCI rec..


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

MHElectric said:


> No, not in the kitchen, unless the kitchen circuit also includes the dining room area, then it is required.
> I agree with your statement, I just feel like its a up-hill battle because we are all at the mercy of our local AHJ's interprtation.


Not in Mass. We got 1 (one) code that we all follow. Except for Fire prevention.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> Yes,IF they share a ckt with the bedroom or other required area.


 That is not what I said. I install the bath and kitchen lights on one circuit depending on the layout of the house- no afci


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm STILL waiting for that AFCI device that is in the code-not a breaker- so I don't need to sell an entire service/panel upgrade to replace a damaged -used to be $.59- now $1.20-TR rec.

Ever try explaining to the home owner why a broken rec is going to cost them anywhere from- $200 to $2000 + the new wall plate ()?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

leland said:


> I'm STILL waiting for that AFCI device that is in the code-not a breaker- so I don't need to sell an entire service/panel upgrade to replace a damaged -used to be $.59- now $1.20-TR rec.
> 
> Ever try explaining to the home owner why a broken rec is going to cost them anywhere from- $200 to $2000 + the new wall plate ()?


You will have to wait till Jan. 2014-- they will probably be out just before then.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You will have to wait till Jan. 2014-- they will probably be out just before then.



Nice! Then we will suffer thru the first 7 versions before we get one that actually works!:thumbup:

Remember the maiden voyage of the current AFCI? No one ever paid me for the several warranty trips to remove/replace them.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis, i imagine you work in Cary from time to time, I don't know from personal experience but I've heard they are notoriuos for requiring AFCI and GFI protection onmany any GFI circuit


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I run into this senerio occasionaly when i wire sunroom additions. If the room isn't technically a sun room, its a screened porch which requires gfi protection. If it's a sunroom it needs arc fault. If its one of those in between rooms called an easy breezy it becomes a local ahj interpretation. I just put arc fault and gfi protection on it to skip the headache.


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