# Title 24 for Lighting



## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I am wondering if anyone might have basic information about title 24 as it applies to the state of California. I'm doing a small bar and would like to know what some of the "must do" rules are. Bare minimum ...
The customer wants all LED's with dimmers. He does not want motions anywhere except the bath rooms. It's a small bar, 2 rest rooms,hallway,janitors closet and small office about 10' x 10'...
Do all switches and light fixtures have to be listed in title 20 regs, or is that just for appliances?
Thanks in advance..


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## TheLivingBubba (Jul 23, 2015)

https://cltc.ucdavis.edu/


Start there, look around, UC Lighting Technology Center does a large amount with Title 24 technology. 



PG&E offers online and physical classes that review title 24. I haven't had to deal with this in a few years, the classes are very helpful and FREE. 



https://pge.docebosaas.com/learn


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Easy said:


> I am wondering if anyone might have basic information about title 24 as it applies to the state of California. I'm doing a small bar and would like to know what some of the "must do" rules are. Bare minimum ...
> The customer wants all LED's with dimmers. He does not want motions anywhere except the bath rooms. It's a small bar, 2 rest rooms,hallway,janitors closet and small office about 10' x 10'...
> Do all switches and light fixtures have to be listed in title 20 regs, or is that just for appliances?
> Thanks in advance..


It doesn't matter what the customer wants. It is what Title 24 will allow. 

The last bar we did last year in SF there was a good amount of controls. We did an office last year and it was stupid, all kinds of high dollar light monitoring stuff, the kind that breaks and then gets replaced with a freaking $1.00 toggle switch.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Thanks Bubba I will take some time and check out the links. They should be very helpful.
Switched I actually have drawings to go by and it will probably be best to stay with that. I was shocked by all the controls and crap required. The EE specked out all the fixtures switches even the NPOD-GFX system with touch screen as the control surface. The nPP16 EFP Power/Relay Packs everywhere. The problem is there will be zero access to anything above all the custom drywall work is completed. I'll have to build some kind of gathering panel to put all the relays in. Way overkill on a few LED's when your trying to save energy and your adding a 200 amp electric boiler.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm happy with it because I enjoy bending 1/2 & 3/4 EMT. I get to add a bunch of other runs for cameras as well. All cat 5 stuff. As long as I don't forget any runs. It seems like A/V guys don't like pipe work. I will take all I can get. Small stuff only.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Easy said:


> Thanks Bubba I will take some time and check out the links. They should be very helpful.
> Switched I actually have drawings to go by and it will probably be best to stay with that. I was shocked by all the controls and crap required. The EE specked out all the fixtures switches even the NPOD-GFX system with touch screen as the control surface. The nPP16 EFP Power/Relay Packs everywhere. The problem is there will be zero access to anything above all the custom drywall work is completed. I'll have to build some kind of gathering panel to put all the relays in. Way overkill on a few LED's when your trying to save energy and your adding a 200 amp electric boiler.


Cali doesn't care that it is making it damn near impossible for small businesses to survive. Wait till the state is fully socialist, those of us that work need to begin to "Enjoy" paying for the lives of others, it's our civic duty.

I sent you some T24 stuff.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

This guide from Cooper looks pretty good: 

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...tle-24-Guidelines-for-Controlled-Lighting.pdf 

Lutron too: 

https://www.lutron.com/en-US/educat...rol requirements for commercial buildings.pdf


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

IIRC you can't get a final until you have a 3rd party certification for Title 24. I used to know a guy who did the certs. Pretty much every job he'd show up and require them to rip everything out and rebuild to the standards. You should probably contact one of them first and have them review your plans.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Switched said:


> Cali doesn't care that it is making it damn near impossible for small businesses to survive. Wait till the state is fully socialist, those of us that work need to begin to "Enjoy" paying for the lives of others, it's our civic duty.
> 
> I sent you some T24 stuff.


I agree it's crazy. Each of the 6" Gotham cans cost about $220 as apposed to a 6" halo can that cost only $7.98 ... My boss likes to go against the grain on things as he is ex special forces / Sargent Major and kind of a bad ass. He may have a rude awakening. You just can't fight city hall and the bleeding heart liberals who make these laws. The lobbyist are in bed with them drinking champagne and counting all the money they get.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

splatz said:


> This guide from Cooper looks pretty good:
> 
> http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...tle-24-Guidelines-for-Controlled-Lighting.pdf
> 
> ...


Thanks Splatz .. The 2 links you sent me are both excellent. I really don't think that I have the desire to learn too much about tittle 24 because my brain wants to just explode. I have a hard enough time with basic code.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

MikeFL said:


> IIRC you can't get a final until you have a 3rd party certification for Title 24. I used to know a guy who did the certs. Pretty much every job he'd show up and require them to rip everything out and rebuild to the standards. You should probably contact one of them first and have them review your plans.


Yes I did read something about that. "You must have a CALCTP-AT Technician do an inspection before you get certificate of occupancy." 
So the T24 inspection is done after drywall and paint? What a nightmare. I am not that good at making up the RJ45 connectors. I guess I will have to practice more. The connectors are expensive for cat 5 or cat 6. I wanted to run conduit for the cat cables but maybe I should just buy cables with ends on them already and forget the conduit or go with 3/4" and pull in the cables with the RJ45 factory connectors. Wish me luck.. :vs_mad:


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## TheLivingBubba (Jul 23, 2015)

Easy said:


> I guess I will have to practice more. The connectors are expensive for cat 5 or cat 6. I wanted to run conduit for the cat cables but maybe I should just buy cables with ends on them already and forget the conduit or go with 3/4" and pull in the cables with the RJ45 factory connectors. Wish me luck.. :vs_mad:



They make new cat5/6 connectors that allow the wires to pass through the end of the modular plug and cut when crimped (if using the right crimper.) If you don't have that crimper I believe you can still use them and just trim the end with a knife. 



What kind of lighting system are you using? I know that when using Wattstopper systems they usually require you to use their cables for warranty (and I think they made them proprietary by switching up the wire order.) If that is the case and you have to use premade cables, before pulling them tape up the end so it is less likely to catch. 



Pipe down to the switches and free air everything you can. If you're running it through grid get your fish sticks or a stick of 1/2" and pole vault it. 



Good luck.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

TheLivingBubba said:


> https://cltc.ucdavis.edu/
> 
> 
> Start there, look around, UC Lighting Technology Center does a large amount with Title 24 technology.
> ...


Thanks again for the links. I like that some of the classes are free. It would probably be easier to earn a law degree than to become proficient in title 24. This would be an excellent path for a younger person who wanted to specialize in it. There are so many choices out there. Yesterday a video surveillance company came out to give a quote on cameras. I guess the police department requires a design. The fire department is also involved and wants a list of all the chemicals that will be at the site. What a pain in the rear. The company that installs cameras does not run conduit so that goes to me. As a matter of fact the guy who owns the company said he could give me all kinds of work just running conduit for his company. I wish I could pass it on to someone who needs the work. 
Final note: for people struggling to find work. It's who you meet and who you know that gets you jobs. Not online searches. :smile:


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

:vs_OMG:


TheLivingBubba said:


> They make new cat5/6 connectors that allow the wires to pass through the end of the modular plug and cut when crimped (if using the right crimper.) If you don't have that crimper I believe you can still use them and just trim the end with a knife.
> 
> For sure the pass through connectors are best for me. My eye sight is bad and it makes it much easier for me to see that I have the proper cable pairing. I have a crimper and cable tester. Both of them were cheap but seem to work ok. I also have to make up a bunch of either-net cables for the RGB strip lighting so I better practice.
> 
> ...


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I freaking love california. I do wish we could put a wall up between them and the normal part of the country.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Ok guys lets get though this together. I'm not even sure if you can daisy chain the cat 5 pathway or if each zone has to go to an nLite bridge. Not even positive how the NPOD (Graphic WallPod) ties in. Lots of button pushes to do basic zone addressing on both switch and relay. If I add a gateway and a computer I can set it all up from there. Well for even more money you are insulted into buying the software after paid way too much for the hardware in the first place.


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

This guy had a plan. Not sure if it's the best plan but it does keep all the relays in one place.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Cali is just making stupid **** rules and regs that benefit no one. 

I guarantee that if you took a cost analysis of the added labor, materials (and included the environmental impact of mining, processing, manufacturing, distribution, etc.), and the fact that this digital stuff breaks far more often and is expensive as all can be to replace.... It is 10x the cost and environmental impact of an incandescent. 

Not to mention that the manufacturers are all on a race to make each little thing with software proprietary and serviceable only by qualified (pay us money) technicians. 

This is the stupidest state that ever was. Come one earthquakes.....


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Parts that will be used...........
5 nPP16D (Dimming Relays) 
2 zones will also have nCM PDT 9 (Ceiling Sensors) 
1 NPOD GFX (Graphic Scene Controller)

I have been looking at manuals and drawings but have a question about the Cat 5 pathway. Is it all just one series loop to all the devices or do each of the Zones have to go to a *bridge* and then to the NPOD GFX? 

Does Cat 5 go from Fixture, then to Sensor, then to relay, then to wall switch, then to bridge, then to NPOD GFX ?

Or just omit the bridge and series the Cat 5 cable from device to device then to the NPOD GFX ?
The EE drew up the plans without a bridge. 

I am going to call the supplier today and ask, but maybe someone has actually installed one of these systems and can give me some insight. Thanks in advance...


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

Here are 2 photos to examine. The first one shows the bridge and the second one does not. If you look at Zone 2 of the first photo you can see how one switch with 2 push buttons and 2 relays is just in series. The 2nd photo just shows all the Cat 5 in series.



















The 2nd photo does show it going to a bridge but all the switches and power packs are wired in series before they even head to the bridge.

I would like to set up my conduit runs so that after final inspection I could possibly at a latter date eliminate some of the stuff if needed and just go with conventional wiring and dimmers. Fat chance...


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## Easy (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm thinking I could just punch through the back wall into the brewery area and put all my relays there and run my 277v switch legs to boxes at that location. The bar area is all hard panned and I need the relays to be accessible.


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