# bar cut



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

1. What's a 'bar cut'?
2. What was altered?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

I see it as a violation but not dangerous.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Good idea, I'm going to cut out to a bar.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

Apparantly I'm missing it.:icon_confused:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

The two terminal bars on each side used to be joined by a horizontal bus bar, now it has been cut and removed. 

It looks like they saved the price of buying a grounding bar.


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

He cut the neutral bus and used one side for neutral and the other for a ground. At least thats what it appears to be.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

_NOW_ I see it!







 
Total waste of time. A QO/HO ground bar is just a couple bucks.​


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Total waste of time. A QO/HO ground bar is just a couple bucks.


Plus fuel and time to the wholesale house because he forgot to write down every part he needed. 

Probably not a waste at that point.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not having a big problem with it actually. It's not very clean looking subpanel for just a couple of ckt's though.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Also note the green bonding screw in the center of the now-cut busbar. 

I think it's a rather creative idea. 

I'm sure it violates the UL listing, but I certainly don't see a safety issue. 

Rob


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

micromind said:


> I'm sure it violates the UL listing, but I certainly don't see a safety issue.
> 
> Rob


Yes violates. The bigger problem was the fact the the neutral bar was not held in place at the top anymore and was about to break away at the bottom.:thumbsup:
If it breaks, would that make it a floating neutral?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

codeone said:


> Yes violates. The bigger problem was the fact the the neutral bar was not held in place at the top anymore and was about to break away at the bottom.:thumbsup:
> If it breaks, would that make it a floating neutral?


 I guess that is one way to create a floating neutral.:laughing:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

throw the flag. that's a fail.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

I prefer floating hots, in a fish tank.


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

Is that part of a interlock kit on the 2pole breaker?


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Greenblinker said:


> Is that part of a interlock kit on the 2pole breaker?


 Main hold down(detached garage) For expansion.


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

arrr, as required by 408.36D. I've done so many generators as of late that it was the first thing I thought of.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

aaar matey!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> I prefer floating hots, in a fish tank.


 nice, I used to have this old train set from the 60's and I would electrocute grasshoppers and such with the big *ss transformer/controller thing. I was a sick kid.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> aaar matey!


lol!:thumbup:


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

codeone said:


> Yes violates. The bigger problem was the fact the *the neutral bar was not held in place at the top anymore* and was about to break away at the bottom.:thumbsup:
> If it breaks, would that make it a floating neutral?


Are you saying that the panel specs do not allow the tie bar to be removed, thereby seperating neutral from ground? 

If specs say it is OK.....then how is the neutral bar going to break away?


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

This is a Square D Homeline its not designed that way! Its designed to add a ground bar on the side.

If you look close you can see the rivet at the top left bar is missing and the bottom left of the bar is a black plastic rivet. The connecting bar at the ground screw is cut with some kind of snips.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Don't argue with the codeine!


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

codeone said:


> This is a Square D Homeline its not designed that way! Its designed to add a ground bar on the side.


Ahh...I don't use SqD products......so not that familiar with their specs. Interesting though.

I use Siemans or GE....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shado said:


> ................I use Siemans or GE....


You have my deepest, sincerest sympathies. :laughing:


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You have my deepest, sincerest sympathies. :laughing:


:blink:....waat....jooo no likey them? 

Why?:001_huh:


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You have my deepest, sincerest sympathies. :laughing:


Oh don't be a d-ck.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shado said:


> :blink:....waat....jooo no likey them?
> 
> Why?:001_huh:


 
Naaa... just pulling your chain. Hence the ":laughing:"


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Naaa... just pulling your chain. Hence the ":laughing:"


Whew!! Had me worried. You are my mentor!:thumbsup:

All pics of your work looks just like my work...at times wondered if we had worked under same JM sometime...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Shado said:


> Whew!! Had me worried. You are my mentor!:thumbsup:
> 
> All pics of your work looks just like my work...at times wondered if we had worked under same JM sometime...


 
Not unless you worked 'round these parts.


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Not unless you worked 'round these parts.


Nope....I have only worked under a total of (3) JM...and even that only totals maybe 6-9 months. The rest of my 25+ years was on my own...:thumbsup:


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

Arrr, maybe I should start all my posts with yee pirate speak. Starting with the last.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Yaar!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Greenblinker said:


> Arrr, maybe I should start all my posts with yee pirate speak. Starting with the last.


Talk Like A Pirate Day isn't until September 19th.


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## Greenblinker (Aug 4, 2008)

Arrr, I wonder how my customers would react to that. Arr Ur scurvy service be done now. Wheres me handsome booty?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Greenblinker said:


> Arrr, I wonder how my customers would react to that. Arr Ur scurvy service be done now. Wheres me handsome booty?


 
Arr, ye sea urchin.... wood'n ya be acceptible to takin' Dubloons fer payment? Arr!


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Me crew is ready for some pillaging.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Me crew is ready for some pillaging.


 
No plundering?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Just pillage.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If the mechanical integrity of the panel was not affected, I wouldn't see cutting that connection as a problem. I mean, we do field-modify equipment all the time. The installer lacked the foresight to read the box to see if the ground bar was included or not.

Like I said, if I were the inspector and that was the only problem, I would just tell the guy to pay more attention next time, but I wouldn't fail it.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Better pic, notice top of left bar no attachment to panel.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Now I can see said the blind man.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I would have at least pulled those chair lugs off and pocketed 'em. Those always come in handy somewhere else. :thumbsup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I would have at least pulled those chair lugs off and pocketed 'em. Those always come in handy somewhere else. :thumbsup:


 I have never heard them called chair lugs, but you are right never have enough of them and can always have a need for them.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

New electrical slang COOL!

I see alot of wasted parts all the time!:thumbup:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

codeone said:


> New electrical slang COOL!
> 
> I see alot of wasted parts all the time!:thumbup:


 I learn a new name for something every week on here.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Never heard "Chair Lugs" either. I've always called them "Cheater Lugs".


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Looking at the new pic, it appears that the neutral bar is just floating at the top. If so, I would have a real problem with it. 

If not, then it's certainly a violation, but not a very serious one.

Rob


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

micromind said:


> Looking at the new pic, it appears that the neutral bar is just floating at the top. If so, I would have a real problem with it.
> 
> If not, then it's certainly a violation, but not a very serious one.
> 
> Rob


 Its floating!


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

And if the screw was reinstalled in the now neutral bar thereby securing it then you would pass it ?


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

jw0445 said:


> And if the screw was reinstalled in the now neutral bar thereby securing it then you would pass it ?


I think by all accounts, should be able to pass....but by the book....nope


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

jw0445 said:


> And if the screw was reinstalled in the now neutral bar thereby securing it then you would pass it ?


 The problem with letting alot of electricians get away with a code violation is they dont learn. the old saying get an inch thell take a mile.Also there is the question of libality, and also being able to say in a Court of Law that the job met minimum Code. Most dont make the same mistake twice. Im not saying that I dont try to work with the contractors. You can ask contractors in the area and you will find almost all the inspectors in our area have good reputations for helping.:thumbsup:


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## Inspector Grump (Jun 4, 2008)

Modifiy the panel you get a red tag. Panel is no longer listed


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Inspector Grump said:


> Modifiy the panel you get a red tag. Panel is no longer listed


That is not at all what UL says.

UL says they cannot tell if a modification to listed equipmentl has effected the listing and it is up to the AHJ to either approve the modification or request a UL field evaluation.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Talk Like A Pirate Day isn't until September 19th.


The Pittsburgh Pirates are ready for 2010 season.

I don't see a ground conductor.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> That is not at all what UL says.
> 
> UL says they cannot tell if a modification to listed equipmentl has effected the listing and it is up to the AHJ to either approve the modification or request a UL field evaluation.


 Well we all know which one the AHJ will want. They will be getting it field evaluated every time.


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

I just now ran across this post & I'll have you know that was SOP at a company I worked for for years, boss's orders "Just cut the bonding strip out and use the one side for the neutrals" 

I personally have not done it since I worked for that company.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Shado said:


> Ahh...I don't use SqD products......so not that familiar with their specs. Interesting though.
> 
> I use Siemans or GE....


You asked why GE is not liked? let me tell you they don't have the name Generous Electric "We bring good things to death" for nothing. I have seen a few breakers either blowing up , the first was an FPE the second(pretty cool actually) and there after were all GE's the breakers still wouldn't trip till we found which was arcing out:detective:because the breaker got so hot the handle could just barely be touched with bare hands. Yes this was a while ago, but........:gun_bandana:


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Codeone
Looks like Disney Electric did this. But tell me, would you accept a lug attached to the panel for the grounds. I see 2 wires, could you use the next size wire under the lug attached to the 2 ground wires. I've seen this done along with twisting the grounds together under the lug (I know 2 wires) 
Usually the big volition I see is the grounds and neutrals together on subpanels.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

the company i used to work for would NEVER buy EGC bars. they would make us remove the piece that would join the 2 neutral bars together. one would become the neutral bar and other would be the EGC. hack city.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

electricalperson said:


> the company i used to work for would NEVER buy EGC bars. they would make us remove the piece that would join the 2 neutral bars together. one would become the neutral bar and other would be the EGC. hack city.


 WOOOOOOWWWWW!!! Really? :no:


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

electricalperson said:


> the company i used to work for would NEVER buy EGC bars. they would make us remove the piece that would join the 2 neutral bars together. one would become the neutral bar and other would be the EGC. hack city.


 I don't see anything wrong with that. I have done it many times. I would rather just add ground bars than do that, but whenever you don't have a ground bar handy it works great.


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