# Hours



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

How are you getting up to the 24'? Scissor lift?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I am just totally ballparking this I'd map this out task by task day by day but I could see this being 100 man hours. 

I usually guess 100 man hours. If the number's way off at least the math is easy to do in my head.


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

splatz said:


> I am just totally ballparking this I'd map this out task by task day by day but I could see this being 100 man hours.
> 
> I usually guess 100 man hours. If the number's way off at least the math is easy to do in my head.


I was at 80 I just didn’t know if that’s crazy high.
And yes facility has lift onsite. Materials are 14k


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Every place I've worked has a "productivity factor". You lose time for permits, availability to the area, distance from office/tool crib, safety meetings and rules, etc. They are all different, and can vary quite a bit from site to site. It's rare to get 7 hours of work out of an 8 hour day any more. A few places are in the 3-4 hour ball park. Some are 5, and a couple are 6.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Is the floor completely clear where you will be using the lift?

Is there anyone else using the lift when you'd want it? 

Are you planning to do this work when they in operation and have people on the floor working?


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Is the floor completely clear where you will be using the lift?
> 
> The main path is mostly clear. The compressor air room is tight.
> 
> ...


Yes will need to be careful and weekend shut down to tie in main.


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

glen1971 said:


> Every place I've worked has a "productivity factor". You lose time for permits, availability to the area, distance from office/tool crib, safety meetings and rules, etc. They are all different, and can vary quite a bit from site to site. It's rare to get 7 hours of work out of an 8 hour day any more. A few places are in the 3-4 hour ball park. Some are 5, and a couple are 6.


Very true thank you. My favorite is when you realize the facility manager is a complete psychopath once you’re started. This guy however is pretty cool.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WPNortheast said:


> Yes will need to be careful and weekend shut down to tie in main.


I've been burned with those type issues before.

So some of the job cost will be overtime hours?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WPNortheast said:


> Very true thank you. My favorite is when you realize the facility manager is a complete psychopath once you’re started. *This guy however is pretty cool.*


So far he is!


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So far he is!


You seem to know what I mean LOL. :vs_laugh:


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

*"...up wall and across ceiling across mostly existing trapeze with room..."*

No issues with the imposed load -- weight-wise...

I would run twin 2" runs all the way.

Breaking out conductors 3" to 2" is not my style.

After all, even pulling these puppies in can be a chore.

Down the road, the customer ought to have the option of leaving one unit running while the other system is totally re-configured.

I also would look into whether they intend to have a DRYER to pull the moisture out of the pneumatic flow. You'd best ask. Many fellas assume that you're hip to this requirement. Major industrial plants that use a LOT of air almost always dry it out first. Water vapor screws up tools and paint jobs.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

WPNortheast said:


> You seem to know what I mean LOL. :vs_laugh:


Oh brother, been there done that too many times.


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

Tesla you have me thinking
How does one calculate the weight load vs limit. There is parallel 4 inch emts with 400 amp copper inside each resting on deep strut which hangs from 3/8 rod... may have to go with all new trapeze. You find the time to run another 300 ft of pipe is better than pulling 6 and ground in 1?


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

And there is a dryer. Nothing changing there for now.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

You can look up the rating of the ones they used, but 3/8" threaded rod beam clamps usually will carry at least 500 pounds. If the trapeze is near the weight limit, you can always add a rod.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Copper dominates the weight... and its weight can be calc'd by its kCMIL and distance between supports. Crudely, the EMT will weigh about as one of the feeder conductors... at the most.

Do a quick calc to see if the system has spare capacity (weight) -- if not set additional all-thread drops// anchors.

Keep in mind that some traps are dropping from a truss that has its own weight limit.

For the project at hand, with so much copper up there, I'd have to run the numbers before cranking out an estimate.

As for the (1) 3" vs (2) 2" -- think about your tugger and sheaves. For me, tugging into 2" goes slicker than snot. If you've got the gear to quickly pull into 3" -- things might pencil out differently for you.

The last time I faced a retro-fit upgrade somewhat like this project the office was in love with Big Pipe and breaking out the daughter runs -- which is what you're proposing. It was a bit%$#. It would've gone three times faster with idiot-simple 1" EMT. The attempt to use existing raceway capacity was a disaster... wa-a-a-a-a-ay too slow. A bunch of #4s just shot through 1" -- and didn't need a tugger.

I love Big Pipe in the underground// underslab. I love dedicated (smaller) runs for RTU, motor loads, and such... especially if I can get away with 1" EMT or smaller. Pulling 7 wires up, over and down... often proves to be a hassle. You don't even get to save on the grounding // bonding conductor as parallel hots demands that such a wire be up-sized... largely eliminating any savings.

You'll also discover -- in the labor rate books -- that running parallel EMT is much faster than twice running a solo EMT raceway. You'll find that running 3" EMT is nowhere near as fast as running 2", too.

But, it's close. You'll have advocates for both gambits.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Labor units are never "vague"


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

cdslotz said:


> Labor units are never "vague"


So how many man hours would you figure?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

telsa said:


> *"...up wall and across ceiling across mostly existing trapeze with room..."*
> I would run twin 2" runs all the way.
> 
> Breaking out conductors 3" to 2" is not my style.


 @WPNortheast did you pencil it out both ways? The more I think about it I'd rather do two 2" than one 3" in this case.


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

I am going with two 2-inch runs. It was a no-brainer once I realized I would have to upsize the 3/0 copper to 4/0 because of the derating. I ended up two guys two weeks and 20% on materials totaling $33000 and some odd dollars. What do you think? The facility is doing helicopter turbine overhauls for the government. I don't want to leave a lot of money on the table and I don't want to lose the job obviously.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

splatz said:


> So how many man hours would you figure?


I'm retired from estimating for 37 years. I don't have my program to plug this in anymore.
I do have some of my labor unit books, but I'm not going to drag them out and manually work this up....I'm retired....lol

When you use terms as "how many would you figure", that sounds like someone who looks at a task and says "I figure two men-two weeks" or 80 man/hrs.

I take every nut and bolt of the task and enter the materials (whether manually or computer) and see the results of total man/hrs, then adjust if needed for conditions. If it comes out as 160 man/hrs....so be it.

I never argue labor units....


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## WPNortheast (Jun 4, 2017)

cdslotz said:


> I'm retired from estimating for 37 years. I don't have my program to plug this in anymore.
> I do have some of my labor unit books, but I'm not going to drag them out and manually work this up....I'm retired....lol
> 
> When you use terms as "how many would you figure", that sounds like someone who looks at a task and says "I figure two men-two weeks" or 80 man/hrs.
> ...


How did you develop that labor unit system as I’m the type who would rather count each piece on some jobs but don’t have #s for every task


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

WPNortheast said:


> How did you develop that labor unit system as I’m the type who would rather count each piece on some jobs but don’t have #s for every task


I've been using software for many years. Accubid, McCormick, Vision, ConEst.
They have thousands of parts and assemblies in their database....all material priced and labored. They have many ways to factor labor up/down for installing at certain heights, parallel runs and pulls, etc
The labor units are pretty standard throughout all the software platforms. The software counts all the pieces once you enter all parameters of a run such as this one you are discussing


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

cdslotz said:


> WPNortheast said:
> 
> 
> > How did you develop that labor unit system as I’m the type who would rather count each piece on some jobs but don’t have #s for every task
> ...


I learned on Conest Intellibid when I was in trade school. Damn I miss the crap out of that software.


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> I learned on Conest Intellibid when I was in trade school. Damn I miss the crap out of that software.


Yes...it's good one


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