# Whats it like being a union electrician?



## guvnor

Just want to make sure I know what im getting into before I apply for apprenticeship. 

Im a bit confused on how the union works. Once you are in the union, how exactly do you find work? If somebody could explain how the system exactly works I would appreciated it. 

Im also curious to what an average workday is like. Things like what time you show up for work in he morning, how far you have to commute to job sites, etc.

And say I wanted to move to another part of the country, is it possible to transfer to another union? 

Thanks!


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## Celtic

guvnor said:


> Im a bit confused on how the union works. Once you are in the union, how exactly do you find work? If somebody could explain how the system exactly works I would appreciated it.


You do not find work...the hall [the union does]...the hall is a referral service.
Here's how it works:
You go to a job...for whatever reason [job's done, you suck, whatever]...your employment is terminated.
You head to the hall and sign "the out of work book".
As jobs become available, the jobs are offered to the people that signed the book before you....they go off to a job, and you move up a few places.
Now you are the head of the list and jobs are offered to you, while guys who have been recently terminated collect unemployment [just as you did when you first signed the book].

There is also a possibility of "getting on steady".
this means the company simply shuffles you from job-to-job...until there is no work or someone decides you suck.
It IS possible to work for one outfit for your entire career.




guvnor said:


> Im also curious to what an average workday is like. Things like what time you show up for work in he morning, how far you have to commute to job sites, etc.


There a few variables that need to be considered:
1 - Where do you live
2 - What local are you trying for

Living in Mahwah, NJ and applying to LU 400 [Wall, NJ]...will guarantee a long commute.
Living in Belvidere, NJ and applying to LU 102 [Paterson] ..could land you at Bridgewater or the refineries by the Turnpike in Elizabeth.

Things for you to consider:
- Where is the bulk of the work in a given locals "territory"
- Where do you live

Clearly the "How far?' question cannot be answered accurately....you can minimize commute time by considering the above two items....but the work is where the work is.

Here is a map of the NJ locals and their "territory":
http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/directory/maps/NJ-Outside.pdf


Work starts AT 7:00AM....that means by the gangbox, ready to go...not tying your boots or yapping on the phone to someone.
Break is at 9:00AM - 9:15AM.
Lunch is noon - 12:30PM
Clean-up is at 3:10PM
Offsite by 3:25PM


This is a general guideline...but the job sometimes dictates the times [2nd or 3rd shift; deliveries during breaks; testing equipment; roach coach is late;etc]...it happens.

Other times the foreman or general will have his own "schedule"....
7:00 at the gangbox....coffee and smokes until 7:15'ish
Break 8:45 - 9:30
Lunch 11:30 - ?:??
Cleanup...could be early as 2:30
Leave 3:00PM


For a new guy...expect the first option.




guvnor said:


> And say I wanted to move to another part of the country, is it possible to transfer to another union?


Probably not.
It's not unheard of, but why would a different local even want you?
..and why would want a drop in pay?
NJ is pretty much at the top of the charts paywise [ although there are exceptions]....so unless you have your sights set on San Francisco...where? ...that would pay as well?....that would have the volume of work [most of] NJ typically has?


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## e57

Celtic said:


> so unless you have your sights set on San Francisco...where? ...that would pay as well


 SF turns away people by the 10's of thousands when thier 100 man class starts.... You had better know someone to walk you in... Even then, only a percentage of those make it all the way from what I understand. You could test in - but be limited to Resi, and on one of thier multi-tiered books - only a few of which you are allowed to sign in the first place. Or be hired in, but chance there are slim... Here - and all locals are different - it is a "brotherhood" not a union.


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## guvnor

Celtic said:


> You do not find work...the hall [the union does]...the hall is a referral service.
> Here's how it works:
> You go to a job...for whatever reason [job's done, you suck, whatever]...your employment is terminated.
> You head to the hall and sign "the out of work book".
> As jobs become available, the jobs are offered to the people that signed the book before you....they go off to a job, and you move up a few places.
> Now you are the head of the list and jobs are offered to you, while guys who have been recently terminated collect unemployment [just as you did when you first signed the book].
> 
> There is also a possibility of "getting on steady".
> this means the company simply shuffles you from job-to-job...until there is no work or someone decides you suck.
> It IS possible to work for one outfit for your entire career.
> 
> 
> 
> There a few variables that need to be considered:
> 1 - Where do you live
> 2 - What local are you trying for
> 
> Living in Mahwah, NJ and applying to LU 400 [Wall, NJ]...will guarantee a long commute.
> Living in Belvidere, NJ and applying to LU 102 [Paterson] ..could land you at Bridgewater or the refineries by the Turnpike in Elizabeth.
> 
> Things for you to consider:
> - Where is the bulk of the work in a given locals "territory"
> - Where do you live
> 
> Clearly the "How far?' question cannot be answered accurately....you can minimize commute time by considering the above two items....but the work is where the work is.
> 
> Here is a map of the NJ locals and their "territory":
> http://www.ibew.org/IBEW/directory/maps/NJ-Outside.pdf
> 
> 
> Work starts AT 7:00AM....that means by the gangbox, ready to go...not tying your boots or yapping on the phone to someone.
> Break is at 9:00AM - 9:15AM.
> Lunch is noon - 12:30PM
> Clean-up is at 3:10PM
> Offsite by 3:25PM
> 
> 
> This is a general guideline...but the job sometimes dictates the times [2nd or 3rd shift; deliveries during breaks; testing equipment; roach coach is late;etc]...it happens.
> 
> Other times the foreman or general will have his own "schedule"....
> 7:00 at the gangbox....coffee and smokes until 7:15'ish
> Break 8:45 - 9:30
> Lunch 11:30 - ?:??
> Cleanup...could be early as 2:30
> Leave 3:00PM
> 
> 
> For a new guy...expect the first option.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not.
> It's not unheard of, but why would a different local even want you?
> ..and why would want a drop in pay?
> NJ is pretty much at the top of the charts paywise [ although there are exceptions]....so unless you have your sights set on San Francisco...where? ...that would pay as well?....that would have the volume of work [most of] NJ typically has?



Thanks for the help!

Im in essex county so im thinking to apply to either 102 or 164. 

Heres a variation on the relocation question. Could I work for NJ local 102 while living in eastern PA? Or do you have to be a nj resident to work in a nj local? Im looking to move out of jersey at some point in the future.


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## Bendezium

I'm also very confused about the relocation and switching locals question. I've heard a lot of mixed experiences and understandings. I'd love more comments on this issue.

I moved to San Diego from Philadelphia, where all my family and friends are, almost 2 years ago and have been laid off not too long ago. I applied to local 569 in San Diego, the aptitude test date is coming up in October. The main reason I haven't migrated back to Philadelphia is because of my girlfriend I met here in SD. If I get accepted and complete an apprenticeship here in San Diego, I may at some point like to move back to the area where I was born and raised, which coincidentally also has a much cheaper cost of living and significantly higher minimum pay. It seems like this may not be as easy as I was hoping for.


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## regieleeroth

Bendezium said:


> I'm also very confused about the relocation and switching locals question. I've heard a lot of mixed experiences and understandings. I'd love more comments on this issue.
> 
> I moved to San Diego from Philadelphia, where all my family and friends are, almost 2 years ago and have been laid off not too long ago. I applied to local 569 in San Diego, the aptitude test date is coming up in October. The main reason I haven't migrated back to Philadelphia is because of my girlfriend I met here in SD. If I get accepted and complete an apprenticeship here in San Diego, I may at some point like to move back to the area where I was born and raised, which coincidentally also has a much cheaper cost of living and significantly higher minimum pay. It seems like this may not be as easy as I was hoping for.


the scenario you speak of happens, but it's rare. Your apprenticeship director wants to turn out quality help for SAN DIEGO'S area for SAN DIEGO'S contractors to help garner SAN DIEGO'S market share and support SAN DIEGO'S retireees. Philly took in what it needed during the same time frame for the same reasons. It's a big-time favor, (switching apprenticeship schools) i would think, as I have only seen it happen once in 8 years. Bite the bullet and chill in sunny San Diego for 5 years, get your ticket and travel if you want later. But the smart method is just move where you're gonna be 1st, then apply... thus avoiding a whole host of issues. Airplanes go everywhere for the family and friend stuff. Good luck on the aptitude test.


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## Celtic

guvnor said:


> Im in essex county so im thinking to apply to either 102 or 164.


Ask the business agents how long the wait for work is....and how long this wait has been sustained...




guvnor said:


> Heres a variation on the relocation question. Could I work for NJ local 102 while living in eastern PA?


102's territory stretches to Easton, Pa...check the map I linked to in the other post.




guvnor said:


> Or do you have to be a nj resident to work in a nj local?
> Im looking to move out of jersey at some point in the future.


"Technically" you are required to live within the confines of a locals "territory".


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> "Technically" you are required to live within the confines of a locals "territory".



Not here our guys come from several other locals jurisdictions, though a few years back this changed some when the local took over some other locals.


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## Bendezium

regieleeroth said:


> the scenario you speak of happens, but it's rare. Your apprenticeship director wants to turn out quality help for SAN DIEGO'S area for SAN DIEGO'S contractors to help garner SAN DIEGO'S market share and support SAN DIEGO'S retireees. Philly took in what it needed during the same time frame for the same reasons. It's a big-time favor, (switching apprenticeship schools) i would think, as I have only seen it happen once in 8 years. Bite the bullet and chill in sunny San Diego for 5 years, get your ticket and travel if you want later. But the smart method is just move where you're gonna be 1st, then apply... thus avoiding a whole host of issues. Airplanes go everywhere for the family and friend stuff. Good luck on the aptitude test.


Thanks regie. I'm sure I could ride out the apprenticeship in Sunny San Diego if it were offered to me. Philadelphia has some brutal winters and summers that I wouldn't mind skipping out on for a few more years  I'm more concerned about my ability to move and work elsewhere permanently after an apprenticeship is completed. 

I know the smart method is to move home first but the apprenticeship would start more than half a year sooner in SD, by my estimate. I'm having trouble finding work and am getting crazy restless and bored. Plus I know there are no guarantees so I might as well try one, then the other if I can.


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## miller_elex

Bendezium said:


> I'm having trouble finding work and am getting crazy restless and bored. Plus I know there are no guarantees so I might as well try.


Dude, I would never bank on getting into the apprenticeship. In times like these, the quantity of apprentices taken into the program decreases, the quality of applicants increases, and the quantity of applicants increases. The algebra does not look good. I am not in your shoes, and I don't know what makes you such a desireable applicant, but if I was in a similar situation, I would probably be going down to the temp labor pool and taking work as a laborer. If you don't have prison tats, meth mouth, and speak english as a first language, you will stand out. I am making a bad name for myself with the union crowd by telling you this, but in the end, it will make you a better electrician.


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## Bendezium

miller_elex said:


> Dude, I would never bank on getting into the apprenticeship. In times like these, the quantity of apprentices taken into the program decreases, the quality of applicants increases, and the quantity of applicants increases. The algebra does not look good. I am not in your shoes, and I don't know what makes you such a desireable applicant, but if I was in a similar situation, I would probably be going down to the temp labor pool and taking work as a laborer. If you don't have prison tats, meth mouth, and speak english as a first language, you will stand out. I am making a bad name for myself with the union crowd by telling you this, but in the end, it will make you a better electrician.


I couldn't agree more, I am looking for other work and temp would be ideal. What do you mrean by "temp labor pool"? If it's what I'm thinking of, I used to pass a 7/11 on my way to my last job and people would wait there in the mornings for day jobs. I'm sure I would stand out there but never figured it would be as a "desirable" employee since there is so much cheap labor around being 30 minutes from the border. This world is pretty new to me. I haven't done labor work since college.

I guess it may seem I'm banking on it, I'm just excited and test time is closing in. I've always been good at math and can keep my composure during interviews so just feel I have as good a chance as anyone. Plus no prison tattoos or meth


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## RUSSIAN

Once you turn out you can go anywhere you want as a traveler, but changing(jamming) a ticket can be very difficult, especially in a down economy


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## Celtic

miller_elex said:


> .... I would probably be going down to the temp labor pool and taking work as a laborer.
> 
> 
> I am making a bad name for myself with the union crowd by telling you this, but in the end, it will make you a better electrician.



:blink:
So working as a laborer will make one a better electrician?

IMHO, every electrician should be offended by your statement.


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## guvnor

Celtic said:


> "Technically" you are required to live within the confines of a locals "territory".


Do you know if all the jersey locals go by this rule? If thats the case then I might have to relocate first then apply at whichever local I end up near in a new state. I really want to get out of jersey. Lived here my whole life and its a great state but taxes and overcrowding are becoming unbelievable.


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## Celtic

guvnor said:


> Do you know if all the jersey locals go by this rule?


Probably....IMHO, it's boiler plate language here ~ why would one or two locals agree to this and the remaining 4 not? ....but not having seen/read some of the other locals agreements...it's stands as "my opinion".



guvnor said:


> If thats the case then I might have to relocate first then apply at whichever local I end up near in a new state.


Remember it's a "technicality" :whistling2:



guvnor said:


> I really want to get out of jersey. Lived here my whole life and its a great state but taxes and overcrowding are becoming unbelievable.


Just follow my taillights :laughing:


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## Frasbee

Ew, I can't stand Jersey.

Your roads are weird.

And I'd rather pump my own gas.


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## miller_elex

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> So working as a laborer will make one a better electrician?
> IMHO, every electrician should be offended by your statement.


 
Sorry princess, don't get your hands dirty.


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## brian john

miller_elex said:


> Sorry princess, don't get your hands dirty.


That has been my goal since my first year in the trade.


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## Celtic

miller_elex said:


> Sorry princess, don't get your hands dirty.


:blink:

I get plenty dirty...but that has almost as much to do with being a laborer as does a brain surgeon.


So please....try and explain just how being a laborer makes one a better electrician [or brain surgeon for that matter].....I only read minds on the weekends.


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## miller_elex

Celtic said:


> :blink:try and explain just how being a laborer makes one a better electrician


I was thinking more along the lines of a carpenter's helper type laborer, than the guy who cleans all the trash up. Setting forms, learning some layout, helping out on the underground, that is all good stuff to learn.


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## Celtic

miller_elex said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of a carpenter's helper type laborer, than the guy who cleans all the trash up. Setting forms, learning some layout, helping out on the underground, that is all good stuff to learn.



Fair enough...thanks for clarification :thumbsup:

No offense to lurking carpenters [ or you miller ], IMHO, if it's some sort of working knowledge of the electrical trade that is desired....one should pursue the mechanical trades.
What we do in some areas [boiler rooms, closed ceilings, etc]..is lieterally out of the realm of a carpenter.


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> Fair enough...thanks for clarification :thumbsup:
> 
> No offense to lurking carpenters [ or you miller ], IMHO, if it's some sort of working knowledge of the electrical trade that is desired....one should pursue the mechanical trades.
> What we do in some areas [boiler rooms, closed ceilings, etc]..is lieterally out of the realm of a carpenter.


I can do pretty much any trade and have. Ask most other trades the same thing, most will say they can tackle any trade, though many will add, but I hold off at anything electrical.


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## drsparky

Whats it like to be a union electrician? Its all wine women and song, we are like rockstars with hard hats.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

We are Gods among men.


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> We are Gods among men.


And unfortunately (NOT NECESSARILY YOU) this attitude has turned off many an open shop electrician.


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## drsparky

brian john said:


> And unfortunately (NOT NECESSARILY YOU) this attitude has turned off many an open shop electrician.


Lighten up.


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## BadSplice

brian john said:


> And unfortunately (NOT NECESSARILY YOU) this attitude has turned off many an open shop electrician.


What's wrong with them, they don't want to be gods too???


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## brian john

BadSplice said:


> What's wrong with them, they don't want to be gods too???


It is all about attitude.


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## BadSplice

brian john said:


> It is all about attitude.


Take it easy Mr. Serious :thumbsup:


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## Shado

BadSplice said:


> What's wrong with them, they don't want to be gods too???


Hehe...that depends on which side of the fence you are on....whether one thinks/believes this is a true statement.....:thumbsup::whistling2:


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## al13nw4r3LC76

Dark side = Non-Union Light side = Union :thumbsup:


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## oldman

Celtic said:


> Probably....IMHO, it's boiler plate language here ~ why would one or two locals agree to this and the remaining 4 not? ....but not having seen/read some of the other locals agreements...it's stands as "my opinion".
> 
> 
> 
> Remember it's a "technicality" :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Just follow my taillights :laughing:


Delicious Orchards is in NJ you dolt...


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Dark side = Non-Union Light side = Union :thumbsup:


And it is that attitude that will keep the union percentage of work shrinking. Open shop men dislike this attitude and owners are afraid of workers with this attitude.

Keep it up you will be the poster boy for open shop.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

I don't care what the non-union side thinks of me. I will gladly welcome them if they wish to join and receive better wages, benefits and working conditions. Most contractors don't give a rats  about the guys working for them (yes I know there are exceptions). If it comes down to the money or you guess who is gonna win. I don't care what they think either.


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## brian john

That's good, because members like you drive the open shop to stay that way. Which does little to help the union or electricians union or open shop.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

I only talk up the Union and encourage all sorts of people/non-union sparkys to apply for the apprenticeship or test in. The brotherhood comes first... always.


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## paul d.

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I only talk up the Union and encourage all sorts of people/non-union sparkys to apply for the apprenticeship or test in. The brotherhood comes first... always.


 had one of the " brothers " call me a few days ago. he wanted to borrow $ 300 to travel to a job. no collateral, so i said no. oh yeah, he's family.


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## leland

paul d. said:


> had one of the " brothers " call me a few days ago. he wanted to borrow $ 300 to travel to a job. no collateral, so i said no. oh yeah, he's family.



You too? Oh well. Tortoise and the hare. (won't tell ya' where my $300 went)

So back to changing locals:

Your licensed in PA. want to work in CA. How can that be?
Don't you need to be licensed where you work?
I'm in Ma. I would love to go to CA or HI. But..I don't want to be the coffee guy all over again.

How does that work?

Just asking.


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## knowshorts

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> The brotherhood comes first... always.


I am sorry, but I have to disagree. 1st of all, I come first, along with my family, my friends, my interests, my dogs, my vacations, and everything else important in my life.



> I don't care what the non-union side thinks of me.


The feeling may be mutual.



> I will gladly welcome them if they wish to join and receive better wages, benefits and working conditions.


This has been argued over and over and there is no clear cut winner.



> Most contractors don't give a rats  about the guys working for them (yes I know there are exceptions).


You are talking about signatory contractors, right?


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## al13nw4r3LC76

knowshorts said:


> I am sorry, but I have to disagree. 1st of all, I come first, along with my family, my friends, my interests, my dogs, my vacations, and everything else important in my life.
> 
> The feeling may be mutual.
> 
> This has been argued over and over and there is no clear cut winner.
> 
> You are talking about signatory contractors, right?



Obviously your family should come first. I didn't mean I would sacrifice my first born for the good of the Union.

I feel sorry for the way most of the non-union live. Mediocre health benny's and a whip to their back constantly for mediocre wages.

I am talking about all contractors ( again... there are exceptions).

Personally I see nothing good about working non-union and will not work non-union.... ever.


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## MDShunk

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I feel sorry for the way most of the non-union live. Mediocre health benny's and a whip to their back constantly for mediocre wages.


I've never whipped anyone and I don't feel especially compelled to provide (although I often do) any particular benefit for anyone beyond their wage.


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Obviously your family should come first. I didn't mean I would sacrifice my first born for the good of the Union.
> 
> I feel sorry for the way most of the non-union live. Mediocre health benny's and a whip to their back constantly for mediocre wages.
> 
> I am talking about all contractors ( again... there are exceptions).
> 
> Personally I see nothing good about working non-union and will not work non-union.... ever.



another fool.


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## Celtic

guvnor said:


> I really want to get out of jersey. Lived here my whole life and its a great state but taxes and overcrowding are becoming unbelievable.
> 
> 
> 
> Celtic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just follow my taillights :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> oldman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Delicious Orchards is in NJ you dolt...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

...and they ship.
Shipping Information


If pie is the sole reason for my staying in NJ ~ I should have my head examined thoroughly.


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## paul d.

brian john said:


> another fool.


 another idiot. hungry kids will make a man work anywhere , for anything.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

Call me whatever you would like. I have my own beliefs as do you. Though to call someone an idiot because their opinion doesn't match yours is a bit childish. :icon_wink:


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## paul d.

ol' grandpaw said he worked a week for a scrawny chicken and a bucket of rotten potatoes. this was in 1935. would any of us do that now ?:no:


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## paul d.

just what i thought. bunch of ibew pussies that are waitin for a handout.


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## Shado

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> I feel sorry for the way most of the non-union live. Mediocre health benny's and a whip to their back constantly for mediocre wages..


 Yea, so do I...Since the all the ones I have known have very nice 2000+ sq/ft homes, new cars, take vacations with their families, have paid for their childrens college, have a retirement fund set up...some even have toys!!!
In my 25+ years in the trade, working for several different EC's across this nation, I have never had a WHIP to my back...and heaven help the poor soul who tries....




al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Personally I see nothing good about working non-union and will not work non-union.... ever.


I was curious of your experience and found out you are an apprentice...I am going to assume less than 36 months. Still in the brainwashing phase, and not being taught the facts...that's OK.
That's very sad....since the IB*U*EW's market share keeps falling. Once that is over, guess you will be finding another carreer field then huh? And we will keep on rocking and rolling in the field.....with the market share you give us.....:whistling2:


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## user4818

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Personally I see nothing good about working non-union and will not work non-union.... ever.


I hear ya. The rat fur gets kind of warm in the summer anyway.


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Call me whatever you would like. I have my own beliefs as do you. Though to call someone an idiot because their opinion doesn't match yours is a bit childish. :icon_wink:


Union members like you do not help the union cause, keep up the holier than though attitude and alienate open shop member more, give them the fuel to say union sucks.

I did not say you were an idiot, but if the shoe fits.


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## miller_elex

Peter D said:


> The rat fur gets kind of warm in the summer anyway.


I zip-up my rat suit when I head out on a side-job. Not only are they hot, they stink too! :laughing:

But seriously guys, 
I know this is the union sub-forum, where union guys are supposed to get together in some kind of intellectual circle jerk, and hate on management and non-union guys.

What is happening is, the management, contractors, and a few union haters are coming to this sub-forum to union bash.

Don't you think the union hating belongs in the 'Business, Marketing, Sales' forum?


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## steelersman

paul d. said:


> just what i thought. bunch of ibew pussies that are waitin for a handout.


Damn dude. You must have a big chip on your shoulders. Try meditation. It's a great stress reliever. :thumbsup:


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## traveler

What's it like?

Well, it really depends on the shop you are working for. If it is an old established union shop, you will be treated with alot more respect, and you won't have to ask for things, like a replacement band saw, becasue the one that's in the gang-box is completely shot. Tools that are not on the "required list" are provided by the company, so every electrician dosen't have to have his own pipe benders, etc.

A shop that is new to the union will already be manned up with men who were with the shop before it came into the union, and many stayed and joined the union so that they could stay with the shop. Consequently, there will be some tension and animosity. My experience, is that SOME of them did some shady things, that shouldn't be tolerated. It was done becasue they were used to having to fight to keep their job and not piss off the owner and lose thier job. Ever heard of someone splicing feeders with a blue wirenut and tape and then pulling them in the ground and "didn't see nothin'? UNBELIEVEABLE!

I will agree that SOME of the union guys have an attitude, but it really isn't fair to ASSUME all of us are that way.

In short, if you do GOOD WORK, and take pride in your craftsmanship, you will be well respected and liked. If you like to throw crap together, you will be looked down upon, and hopefully run off the job. I worked for a guy when I was a cub once who got mad at me for filing the edge of some strut becasue I was "wasting time"...... Yet, I was taught that way. I never cared for the way he cut his strut crooked and and then hung it that way either. It's one thing if it's buried in the wall....it's another if it's exposed.

Just the way I see it.

~Joe


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## brian john

traveler said:


> What's it like?
> 
> Well, it really depends on the shop you are working for. If it is an old established union shop, you will be treated with alot more respect, and you won't have to ask for things, like a replacement band saw, becasue the one that's in the gang-box is completely shot. Tools that are not on the "required list" are provided by the company, so every electrician dosen't have to have his own pipe benders, etc.


That is a vague generality, I have treated my men the same from day one. I have always supplied EVERYTHING they needed and more.



> A shop that is new to the union will already be manned up with men who were with the shop before it came into the union, and many stayed and joined the union so that they could stay with the shop. Consequently, there will be some tension and animosity. My experience, is that SOME of them did some shady things, that shouldn't be tolerated. It was done becasue they were used to having to fight to keep their job and not piss off the owner and lose thier job. Ever heard of someone splicing feeders with a blue wirenut and tape and then pulling them in the ground and "didn't see nothin'? UNBELIEVEABLE!


Yeah on a union job. SKUNK work is not limited to open shops.



> I will agree that SOME of the union guys have an attitude, but it really isn't fair to ASSUME all of us are that way.


And it is not fair to throw a blanket over all new shops and new men to the union like you did above



> In short, if you do GOOD WORK, and take pride in your craftsmanship, you will be well respected and liked. If you like to throw crap together, you will be looked down upon, and hopefully run off the job. I worked for a guy when I was a cub once who got mad at me for filing the edge of some strut becasue I was "wasting time"...... Yet, I was taught that way. I never cared for the way he cut his strut crooked and and then hung it that way either. It's one thing if it's buried in the wall....it's another if it's exposed.


And unfortunately this seems to be more the rule (shoddy work) than the exception.


----------



## traveler

brian john said:


> That is a vague generality, I have treated my men the same from day one. I have always supplied EVERYTHING they needed and more.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah on a union job. SKUNK work is not limited to open shops.
> 
> 
> 
> And it is not fair to throw a blanket over all new shops and new men to the union like you did above
> 
> 
> 
> And unfortunately this seems to be more the rule (shoddy work) than the exception.


you, sir.....are the exception. Most owners avoid the union becasue they want to make the MAXIMUM amount of profit they can.....and lower overhead is one way to do that. Lower wages and minimal benefit packages is a common way to keep that overhead low. Since you apparently do care about more than the bottom line, being union or non-union shouldn't even be an issue. If your men are happy, they will do good work, and BOTH profit.

sadly, that is not the case industry wide.

If most workers knew that with 30% of the shop wanting it, BY LAW a shop has to let the union in.....then maybe we could FORCE owners to be more than quick-buck hustlers.

I am glad to hear that you are running your shop the right way. It's a shame that unions even have to exist.

I can tell you that I have been on jobs when I brought an obvious OSHA violation to light, and when the General wanted me off the job, he couldn't becasue the union would've slapped him down.:notworthy: Not my fault that they wanted to circumvent the rules and put me in dnager. They knew they were wrong....they jsut didn't like being told that they had to do things the right way.:thumbsup:

Play by the rules, and everything goes fine. It's when corners are cut so the boss can make Max profit, that you start to see why the men need common sense protection.

Not sure why you come on the "Union thread" if you are so against Unions. I hope the day comes that you win a BIG contract, and that we can help you man that job up, and we BOTH WIN!:thumbsup:

I GUARANTEE you....if I worked for you, you would get 8 hours work for 8 hours pay!

~Joe


----------



## brian john

I run a 20 man union shop.


----------



## traveler

Well, maybe someday I can take a call out your way, and then get the first round after quitting time!

I work Hard and play hard.

guys that sluff off on the clock ruin it for BOTH of us. no time for that.

gotta work your tail off....and then beers afterward.

Would you agree?

~joe


----------



## brian john

I do not drink, after work I have classes or hit the river for 5-10 miles in the kayak or to the gym. Then there is mowing the grass/

In addition in my end of the business we have OT everyday, and every weekend.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

brian john said:


> Yeah on a union job. SKUNK work is not limited to open shops.
> 
> .


True but Generally speaking ( yes there are exceptions) Would you not agree that you are more likely to see this kind of work on a non-union job?


----------



## 220/221

I hated the union. I didn't fit in. I'm not much of a follower. I tend to think for myself and do what I feel is right.

I'm a rebel :laughing:


----------



## captkirk

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Dark side = Non-Union Light side = Union :thumbsup:


 Are all you guys so corney....?


----------



## Shado

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> True but Generally speaking ( yes there are exceptions) Would you not agree that you are more likely to see this kind of work on a non-union job?


Nope.....

Like Brian..I have over a quarter of a century in this trade...and every shop I ever worked, it was quality work. It has to pass inspections. You make it sound like union's have union inspectors while the rest have non union inspectors. CODE is CODE...union or not.

I guaranty...my inspectors are the exact same one's inspecting the union's work.


----------



## captkirk

Frasbee said:


> Ew, I can't stand Jersey.
> 
> Your roads are weird.
> 
> And I'd rather pump my own gas.


Aww you guys are just jealous that you have to get out in the winter and pump gas. We dont pump gas and we have some of the cheapest gas around.....:thumbup: what could be better.... NJ rules. I wouldnt want to live anywhere else. Well maybe Miami or San Fran but thats it.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

captkirk said:


> Are all you guys so corney....?


settle down there kirky.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

Shado said:


> Nope.....
> 
> Like Brian..I have over a quarter of a century in this trade...and every shop I ever worked, it was quality work. It has to pass inspections. You make it sound like union's have union inspectors while the rest have non union inspectors. CODE is CODE...union or not.
> 
> I guaranty...my inspectors are the exact same one's inspecting the union's work.


Code is Code true. Non-union would cut corners before Union (Generally speaking). For me I see no benefit going non-union so Union is where I will put in my work. Knowing that my work is of the best quality and things I build to the highest standard.


----------



## Shado

Traveler...thats why we are in business....for profits. Union or not. 
Non union tries to achieve profit like the union...lucky to average 6-10%. Are you saying the union only goes for less than that? I don't think so. 

Even if our scales and burden are lower than union...that does not correlate to same bid prices per hour so owners get to pocket the rest. 
Union has a higher overhead and such charges more...it's probably works out similar ratio wise. And there may only be a $10-15/hr difference between the two. I am not sure....

Most owners probably avoid joining up because comments like your negativity sure does not make it sound worth joing up.

And no...I am not necessarily non union...I grew up around the union, my Uncle was a Pipefitter, I have several good friends who are union right in my neighborhood.


----------



## Shado

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Code is Code true. Non-union would cut corners before Union (Generally speaking). For me I see no benefit going non-union so Union is where I will put in my work. Knowing that my work is of the best quality and things I build to the highest standard.


Again bro...what is your experience in working non union? None it sounds like...so how can you make such a definative statement? If you read my earlier posting...you are an apprentice...still in the brainwashing state...that is not your fault.

I have worked side by side on multi million dollar projects with union guys...even had them strolling around trying to get us to consider signing up...the quality of work was equal....sorry to burst your bubble...but facts are facts and my experience seems to outweigh what you have aquired so far. Check in in about 20 years after working along side non union...and then we can compare apples.


----------



## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> True but Generally speaking ( yes there are exceptions) Would you not agree that you are more likely to see this kind of work on a non-union job?


 
Read my post about quality of work AND NO UNION DOES NOT HAVE A HOLD ON QUALITY.

I guarntee you as I stated im my quality of work post. I can pick ANY JOB APART. That's *my job* and I am good at it.

I did not realize you were an apprentice. I think (MAYBE) you have a lot to learn about the trade, work , human ethics and life.

And the brain washing comments made by others are SPOT ON.


----------



## traveler

Shado said:


> Traveler...thats why we are in business....for profits. Union or not.
> Non union tries to achieve profit like the union...lucky to average 6-10%. Are you saying the union only goes for less than that? I don't think so.
> 
> Even if our scales and burden are lower than union...that does not correlate to same bid prices per hour so owners get to pocket the rest.
> Union has a higher overhead and such charges more...it's probably works out similar ratio wise. And there may only be a $10-15/hr difference between the two. I am not sure....
> 
> Most owners probably avoid joining up because comments like your *negativity* sure does not make it sound worth joing up.
> 
> And no...I am not necessarily non union...I grew up around the union, my Uncle was a Pipefitter, I have several good friends who are union right in my neighborhood.


No negativity.....just like making more money, better benefits, better working conditions, and having a team of legal guru's behind my back to keep shady contractors from trying to screw over there workers for a buck.

anyway,

So...you grew up around the union...saw how much better one can live with higher wages and benefits....and then decided when you grew up that you were willing to work for LESS than what you CAN make?

Can't understnad why a man would want to work for less. Some of the posters on here are looking at it from the owners perspective.

I look at it from the actual hands on perspective.

you want to work for less....knock yourself out. You can only do this work so long before your body is worn out.

why not do something good for yourself and take the extra money.

The only reason a contractor would NOT wnat to be a part of the union, is simply becasue he wants to be able to do some underhanded crap from time to time, like no overtime until you pass 40 hours, meaning the first 4 days of the week can be at 10 hours, and still straight time, then take a long weekend......argue all you want, I've seen it.

Nope. once you go past 8 hours on a single day, you go to OT.


----------



## Bendezium

traveler said:


> Can't understnad why a man would want to work for less. Some of the posters on here are looking at it from the owners perspective.


I've been reading this thread and every thread in this section for awhile now and for the most part have kept silent, but I have been forming my own opinion about a lot of these issues. This one I see is a pretty common state of mind among some posters on this site. I tried to bite my tongue since I'm not an electrician... yet, and still learning much about the debate, but I think my point is still valid.

Obviously if a man or woman has a choice between working the same exact job, with the same exact working conditions and the same exact responsibilities, but was given a choice between two wages, he/she would choose the higher wage. No individual _wants _to work for less.

I think the question you are beating around is that you can't understand why someone would go non-union and the answer to that is simply, because that is the opportunity he was given. Not everyone who wants to be in the union gets accepted, and in the mean time life goes on. Not every city is unionized. There are many answers to that question.


----------



## Shado

traveler said:


> The only reason a contractor would NOT wnat to be a part of the union, is simply becasue he wants to be able to do some underhanded crap from time to time, like no overtime until you pass 40 hours, meaning the first 4 days of the week can be at 10 hours, and still straight time, then take a long weekend......argue all you want, I've seen it.
> 
> Nope. once you go past 8 hours on a single day, you go to OT.


Again...the blanket statement...the negativity comment is just that...it always leads to getting screwed by non union.. rats taking union work, owners shafting the employees, etc. The exact same statements can be made by the non union too. Union is taking our work, union limits the progress of employees, treats the cubs like disposable tools. Your earlier comment about our 3-1 ratio, and haveing JM staying home....what is the difference when a cub stays home? They have to make a living too. 
I have worked with 6-9 months union guys who left due to the crap they had to put up with. Yet, my 6-9 month cubs could work circles around these better schooled, trained union guys. Always the same story from them...union cubs do grunt work, while licenses do the work. Yes eventually cubs get to learn the trade as evidence to obtaining licenses.
I make my cubs get their hands into the trade as soon as they hit the site, the work will get done no matter waht. I will dig, haul trash,etc, right along side of them.
I have made quite a comfortable living for the past 25+ years...yes, I even did a stint in the USAF too...Law Enforcement. I grew up a brat, so been around.

I am neither anti-union nor pro-non union...I am a Licensed Electrician..period. But I do take offense to blanket statements that lead to including me in negative practices. I applied 3 years in a row to the Local 68 when I finished high school, mid- term, to provide for my family. No openings for all who applied. When I was accepted, I already had years in and the union had taken a pay cut...I couldn't afford the substantial loss of pay then.

As far as me not joining up with my business....it is NOT so I can do dirty dealing crap. I disapprove of some of the ethics/ideas practices in union, therefore, I won't be forced to accomodate them. 

It amazes me that union guys always preach the better life of the union, the constitution mandates to organize all electricians...yet non union holds market share for some reason. You said it yourself...if 30% want to join up, then by law, it must be. So, explain to me why the thousands of sparky's in this great nation are not clammering to make their employer join up? Are you emplying that non union guys are not intelligent enough to make their own decision? Why are so many union EC's leaving the union nowadays? Seems, it must not eally be the greener side of the fence.

The OT after 8 is wonderful that that has been negotiated...but it is not Federal Law....again...in 25+ years, several EC's worked for, 100's of fellow employees worked with...I have never heard nor experienced anyone getting screwed for any OT. I have done many a 4-10's and have no problem with it...long weekends are great. My own business is modeled around that very idea...it doesn't always work that way...but money is money.

We both know the debate will go on and on...but it still boils done to simply....Ford vs Chevy...Automatic vs stick...Big Block vs Small Block....horsepower vs economy....black vs white....etc.... we all are given the chance to choose what we want for our own lives...

Neither is perfect nor worse than the other...its a choice. It's a living.
We are all Electricians.


----------



## Celtic

traveler said:


> The only reason a contractor would NOT wnat to be a part of the union, is simply becasue he wants to be able to do some underhanded crap from time to time, like no overtime until you pass 40 hours, meaning the first 4 days of the week can be at 10 hours, and still straight time, then take a long weekend......argue all you want, I've seen it.
> 
> Nope. once you go past 8 hours on a single day, you go to OT.



Not always :no:
There is more than one agreement floating around.....
- your "normal" Collective Bargaining Agreement [CBA]...
- the National Maintenance Agreement [NMA]...
- and more...

I will focus *only* on the NMA.

Under the NMA, a 4/10 is allowed at 40hrs ST.
The NMA is typically the agreement in place for outside contractors at powerhouses, refineries, etc....

Give it an eyeballing:
*NATIONAL MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT*


...scroll on down to XV 8(a) [page 9]

This agreement is pretty short...only about 16 pages....


----------



## Thomps

traveler said:


> So...you grew up around the union...saw how much better one can live with higher wages and benefits....and then decided when you grew up that you were willing to work for LESS than what you CAN make?
> 
> Can't understnad why a man would want to work for less. Some of the posters on here are looking at it from the owners perspective.
> 
> I look at it from the actual hands on perspective.
> 
> you want to work for less....knock yourself out. You can only do this work so long before your body is worn out.
> 
> why not do something good for yourself and take the extra money.
> 
> The only reason a contractor would NOT wnat to be a part of the union, is simply becasue he wants to be able to do some underhanded crap from time to time, like no overtime until you pass 40 hours, meaning the first 4 days of the week can be at 10 hours, and still straight time, then take a long weekend......argue all you want, I've seen it.
> 
> Nope. once you go past 8 hours on a single day, you go to OT.


 
you talk about actual hands on perspectives, and then make statements like this?

come on,,,

I can tell you that at no time over the past 65 years our company as been in business have we ever said that we are in business so "we can pull underhanded crap from time to time"


----------



## Lucky

I just retired as an electrician from IBEW local 424 in Alberta, Canada. Much of the work in my local is in the Alberta Tar Sands, near Fort McMurray, and most of the projects that were on the go a year ago have been shut down. The dollar value of much of this work was about $50 billion. The biggest project coming up is around $8 billion, so you can see there is not much going on up here, compared to what was going on last year. Crude oil prices, which pretty well determine whether these projects go, went as low as $32 a barrel, and are up to $70 a barrel. This is not enough for the Tar Sands companies to go ahead on the projects that were mothballed last year.
What does this have to do with the job market especially for apprentices? While my local has been able to keep most of the apprentices working, I don't think the local is going to be looking for apprentices the way they were a year ago. This applies pretty well only to electrical workers in Canada, particularly in Alberta. Any wanna-be apprentices in Canada in general, should contact local 424, but I have my doubts. Check the online jobline.
Lucky


----------



## traveler

Again, The OWNERS here are refuting me........Apparently they like having their electrician's that will work for less than Union wage.

Again.....why work for less than what you can get?

If I can make 20 bucks an hour...why would I go work somewhere else for 15 ???

Because the owner and I laugh and get along great? PLEASE!!!

Loyalty lasts until work slows down, then (*union or non-union*)....down the road you go.

These young cubs need to learn quick.....business is business, no hard feelings, that's just the way it goes.

Look out for yourself.....

~Joe


----------



## brian john

I have been keeping all my men busy and at this point I am still making money, during the last 3 recessions I kept men on with no work, taking the hit on my pocket.


They had a choice clean the warehouse and other miscellaneous stuff or take the time off several took the time off to hunt, fish and work on their houses, which allowed the men with families longer to hang out on my nickel.


----------



## traveler

That's what makes you first rate...and if they don't pay you back in spades, the shame on them!

~Joe


----------



## Thomps

traveler said:


> Again, The OWNERS here are refuting me........Apparently they like having their electrician's that will work for less than Union wage.
> 
> Again.....why work for less than what you can get?
> 
> If I can make 20 bucks an hour...why would I go work somewhere else for 15 ???
> 
> Because the owner and I laugh and get along great? PLEASE!!!
> 
> Loyalty lasts until work slows down, then (*union or non-union*)....down the road you go.
> 
> These young cubs need to learn quick.....business is business, no hard feelings, that's just the way it goes.
> 
> Look out for yourself.....
> 
> ~Joe


It is because you continue to project these false impressions of every non union shop & their owner as some kind of fact. When in many cases, you really don't know what you are talking about.

What would your ideal scenario be when work slows down? I would love to be in a position to pay everyone to stay at home until projects pick up, but I can't do that, I don't know anyone who can. The trick I guess, is to not slow down (I know, call me crazy).

Our pay structure is set up where we pay the best rate that we feel the market is going to bear. It's not the highest rate in town, nor is it the lowest. but we have guys that have been here for 40 years, 30 years, 20 years. Maybe it's my jokes that keeps them here, who knows?!


----------



## Shado

traveler said:


> Again, The OWNERS here are refuting me........Apparently they like having their electrician's that will work for less than Union wage.
> ~Joe


Joe...come on... Owners would love to be able to pay their men more. You said it yourself...who doesn't want more money? 
We would love to bill at $500/hr..with 90% paid up front....4 hour work days...multiple vacations....retirement funds for the guys....but , that WILL not happen.....not because we don't want it to happen....but because the public, market won't.

You need experience in business ownership and cost requirements to understand what you are trying to project. You keep coming from the worker side....where all you have to do is show up and work...and none of the other headaches that come into play just to provide you that opportunity to make your living wage.

If you had followed others posts..those who work for LARGE non union outfits,they have stated that they are paid very well with great bene's. How do you explain that?

The union generally handles large projects, negotiated wages allow them to take on this kind of work, along with access to their labor pool.

But, in the real world...where 80-90% of the work is obtained...competetion is the norm. The market will only bear, accept, the prices/cost they can afford. 

You haven't responded to my questions in my earlier post (#71) to you....no answers?


----------



## Shado

Traveler....not trying to rip into you....just want to get a point across brother.

If I am correct...your present employer (GubbaMint) is the largest employer in the nation, rakes in untold amounts of $$$$...do you really think/feel you are getting your fair share of it? Think they are short changing your checkbook?

Hell...look at the opportunities from your employer....job security, guaranteed paycheck, bene's (not funded by you), retirement (again, not funded by you), training (not funded by you), travel, (not funded by you),etc... with all those great offerings, why are there not more folks jumping on the wagon to get their share of it?

By your reasoning for $$$'s...why would you even want to get out? :blink:Get your required schooling, get commisioned and retire an O9, with bigger bucks than you will ever earn/recieve from the private sector as an employee in the union.:thumbsup:

Same thing about union or not...its not for everyone...no matter how hard you try or want others to believe.


----------



## traveler

the problem with a forum like this, is that posts are taken differently than what they were meant to be taken. I have no problem with anyone. BUT, I have seen non-union shops do some pretty crappy things. If you're not like that then great....but if the shoe fits, wear it.

Everything has it's good side and bad side.

If an owner treats his men right, then everything is great. It's when the owner does NOT treat his workers right, that collective bargaining has a place.

fear not....the union is damn near dead now anyway.

If I'm treated fair, and I'm not expected to have my own gang box and tools, then it's all good. If a contractor provides the power tools and benders, then all I need is my tool box, work clothes and some water, and point me in the direction I need to go~!

The reason I went back in the military, is quite simply becasue the "feast or famine" lifestyle of construction is ROUGH. I need a steady check. With a military retirement, the trades would be more fun, at least for me personally.

My mention to the cubs is that they simply need to understand that it is a business, and when times get tight, you're gone.

I DO believe the wages in our trade are what they are at, in part due to having to remain somewhat competitive with the trade unions.

If I had my own shop, I'd be a one man band. Keep the overhead low and profit HIGH. I honestly don't know how guys can sleep at night with all of the crap that can go wrong.

SO much easier jsut carrying tools.

~Joe


----------



## Notelitus

"Whats it like being a union electrician?"

It's very, very lucrative. If you're a good worker and a contractor keeps you, you could make a very good living. With overtime you can live pretty damn well. Add to that the pension, annuity, and benefits and it's tits.

That's pretty much the only thing I like about the union. Everything else I am starting to really hate.

Too bad the non-union route can't compete in pay. In places like NJ and NY a journeyman wireman could easily make $30,000-50,000 more per year union than non-union. And that's JUST the paycheck, add in the rest and it's a no brainer.


----------



## cdnelectrician

All I have to say is that I worked non union for many years, now that I am union I won't look back. However, the politics that come with being union aren't all that great at all.


----------



## RUSSIAN

I can honestly say that I was screwed out of overtime by a non-union contractor. They felt it was ok to revert workers back to straight time at midnight, which is technically legal depending on when the company starts their work day(12:01am in this case) I started work at 7:00 AM, dug a ditch for 10 hours, then on my 2hr drive home was called by the project manager to help a guy that evening. ended up working till 3:30am, and reverted back to straight time at 12:01am. Legal or not in my opinion this is shady. On top of that, they refuse to pay night premium even though they bill it to the costumer.....


----------



## Shado

Traveler...I think we are on the same page now...:thumbsup:



Don't know if your doing electrical :thumbup1: or fighting the fight :gunsmilie::gun_bandana:...but I DO support you all the way for your task at hand there. 

Be safe over there and come back home with as many other Americans as you can. Good Luck...:clover:


----------



## brian john

RUSSIAN said:


> I can honestly say that I was screwed out of overtime by a non-union contractor. They felt it was ok to revert workers back to straight time at midnight, which is technically legal depending on when the company starts their work day(12:01am in this case) I started work at 7:00 AM, dug a ditch for 10 hours, then on my 2hr drive home was called by the project manager to help a guy that evening. ended up working till 3:30am, and reverted back to straight time at 12:01am. Legal or not in my opinion this is shady. On top of that, they refuse to pay night premium even though they bill it to the costumer.....


 
Many Union contractors I know do the same thing.

Making money using the laws in your favor is a common practice.


----------



## al13nw4r3LC76

The difference is the guy getting screwed non-union can do nothing about it. The Union guy (as long as your CBA has that in it.) could have recieved the proper wages. If they wont pay call the hall. Simple as that.


----------



## steelersman

brian john said:


> Many Union contractors I know do the same thing.
> 
> Making money using the laws in your favor is a common practice.


That's just wrong. Plain and simple.


----------



## traveler

Shado said:


> Traveler...I think we are on the same page now...:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know if your doing electrical :thumbup1: or fighting the fight :gunsmilie::gun_bandana:...but I DO support you all the way for your task at hand there.
> 
> Be safe over there and come back home with as many other Americans as you can. Good Luck...:clover:


I'm a Truck Driver. We do the convoys over the road that are getting blown up alot....have lost friends....it's kinda crappy, but honestly, the pay and benefits make it worth it......sitting on the union books for a year plus was worse.

I'm in the process of compelting my license renewal right now. It's actually pretty darn tough.

I'd like to go back into the trades when I retire from the service.....if I can keep up!

~Joe


----------



## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> The difference is the guy getting screwed non-union can do nothing about it. The Union guy (as long as your CBA has that in it.) could have recieved the proper wages. If they wont pay call the hall. Simple as that.


You are so brain washed to the point of your comments being *MEANINGLESS.*


----------



## Notelitus

brian john said:


> You are so brain washed to the point of your comments being *MEANINGLESS.*


Not that I agree with any of his other posts, but the one you quoted does hold much truth to it.

Sure, non-union guys have some recourse if they are willing to jump thru hoops and come out lucky at the end, but it's a hell of a lot easier in this situation if you are a union member. I've had problems when working for small signatory contractors who wanted to take advantage, the hall took care of it everytime.


----------



## Celtic

brian john said:


> Making money using the laws in your favor is a common practice.
> 
> 
> 
> steelersman said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just wrong. Plain and simple.
Click to expand...

It's called "business".....nothing personal.

If you read some of the labor laws....you might find some of the things you take for granted are not actually a legal requirement.

Coffee breaks and lunch are prime examples.


----------



## brian john

Celtic said:


> It's called "business".....nothing personal.
> 
> If you read some of the labor laws....you might find some of the things you take for granted are not actually a legal requirement.
> 
> Coffee breaks and lunch are prime examples.


I know and the men have a crap when they find out some of the EXPECTED work benefits are actually contractor give away's and not law, union or otherwise.


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## steelersman

Celtic said:


> Coffee breaks and lunch are prime examples.



Federal Law doesn't require lunch and coffee breaks, but it varies from state to state.


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## brian john

steelersman said:


> That's just wrong. Plain and simple.


Why is it wrong? Employees use laws in their favor. The laws are there to protect both sides.


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## miller_elex

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> If they wont pay call the hall. Simple as that.


You never want to be the guy calling the hall, that reputation will follow you around forever. Toronto may be a big city, but I will bet that it is a small world, and people are know for reputation and drama by hearsay and association with troublemakers.

If you are working for a ****, finish out the job, and get sent to another gf or pm. If times are good, it might even be best to ask for a reduction at the end of the job, especially if a shop is known by reputation for treating people like crap. The point is, if you stay somewhere you are miserable, that is time lost at another shop where you could be happy and satisfied with your job. In a worst case scenario where the FM, GF, whoever starts screaming curse words at you, for no fault of your own, wait till they are done, then pack your tools up, get in your car, drive back to the shop, and tell the manpower guy you can't stand for that.


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## brian john

miller_elex said:


> You never want to be the guy calling the hall, that reputation will follow you around forever. Toronto may be a big city, but I will bet that it is a small world, and people are know for reputation and drama by hearsay and association with troublemakers.


Some of the wisest words in this thread so far.

No contractor wants a union lawyer, BUT no worker should have to put up with a screamer or someone trying to take advantage of them.


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## traveler

I agree.....be careful about being a whistle blower.....contractor can spin you around on a call before your tool box hits the ground.

Apparently though, you know that it is worth it to give the guys a coffee break, as it keeps them happy....and a happy wireman is a PRODUUCTIVE wireman.

If a man is REALLY smart, he'll build a working relationship with the owner....chances are, if you are RELIBALE, and PRODUCTIVE, the "boss" isn't gonna have any heartache over you taking 10 minutes to have a cup of coffee, a donut, and read the paper a little every morning.....because you PRODUCE every day!

FWIW, in Colorado...state labor law dictates a 10 min. coffee break in the morning and a 30 min. lunch.

If I'm wrong tell me.

~joe


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## RUSSIAN

brian john said:


> Why is it wrong? Employees use laws in their favor. The laws are there to protect both sides.


It's wrong because no man should have to revert back to straight time going into his 18th hour on the job. 
Labor laws in CA dictate a break every 2 hours if you work more then 4. My contract states that all time after 10hrs is double time, between 8-10hrs is time and a half, anything after 10hrs of overtime in a week is double time ie; 5-10hr days = doubletime on the weekend, all holidays and the weekends around them are doubletime, after the local reaches a certain amount of man hours the following fiscal year is doubletime on Saturdays. As you can see we don't fu(k with regards to overtime...


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## brian john

RUSSIAN said:


> It's wrong because no man should have to revert back to straight time going into his 18th hour on the job.
> Labor laws in CA dictate a break every 2 hours if you work more then 4. My contract states that all time after 10hrs is double time, between 8-10hrs is time and a half, anything after 10hrs of overtime in a week is double time ie; 5-10hr days = doubletime on the weekend, all holidays and the weekends around them are doubletime, after the local reaches a certain amount of man hours the following fiscal year is doubletime on Saturdays. As you can see we don't fu(k with regards to overtime...


BUT the law is the law, if you/we/they do not like the laws lobby to change them.

As for CA law, it is my understanding that CA, NY and NJ are the 3 states losing businesses faster that any other states, not from business going out of business but relocating. I understand not messing with OT but is it better to have a job or have a rock solid contract as you sit on your butt at home?


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## Notelitus

brian john said:


> I understand not messing with OT but is it better to have a job or have a rock solid contract as you sit on your butt at home?


I ask that question of my Brothers often, especially around the time when the car manufacturers were diving. All of them got offended and said how we should never take concessions under any circumstance. I asked if you'd rather make $25 per hour and have a job or keep $27 per hour and have the plant close and be out of work. All of them said they would not take the concession.

Some people are just brainwashed.


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## brian john

Notelitus said:


> I ask that question of my Brothers often, especially around the time when the car manufacturers were diving. All of them got offended and said how we should never take concessions under any circumstance. I asked if you'd rather make $25 per hour and have a job or keep $27 per hour and have the plant close and be out of work. All of them said they would not take the concession.
> 
> Some people are just brainwashed.


During the last recession the teamsters struck Virginia Concrete and refused to deal. This drove the company into bankruptcy, they sold to Tarmac and now the drivers are open shop, does not seem logical to me.


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## Shado

Traveler...yea, take care on them roads....last month my cousin got royally messed up when a IED blew up under his humvee...broke everything from feet up to neck. He had just put in his retirement papers a few weeks before that.

As far as Colo law...yea, it's something to the effect of a break after 2 hrs work and lunch after 4 hrs work.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

brian john said:


> You are so brain washed to the point of your comments being *MEANINGLESS.*


 That is your opinion. Just as all I am saying is my opinion. Freedom of speech brother. :thumbup:


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## RUSSIAN

we made our concessions, we pushed $3 to the end of the contract to help the contractors out. When we were booming and they were making milliions were they handing out money over the contract? No!
You can't compare the IBEW to the UAW, we(the employees) pay for almost everything we get, UAW workers fought for and agreed to those contracts. Nobody said a thing about those contracts when the big 3 were raking in cash, but when they can't compete with foreign companies it's the union workers fault all of the sudden:no: sorry but maybe management should take a look at the way they ran the company, H2... hello


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> That is your opinion. Just as all I am saying is my opinion. Freedom of speech brother. :thumbup:


“It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove any doubt.”

Famous quote Author unknown at this time to me.


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## steelersman

brian john said:


> “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove any doubt.”
> 
> Famous quote Author unknown at this time to me.


I think it was Abe Lincoln.


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## oldman

brian john said:


> “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove any doubt.”
> 
> Famous quote Author unknown at this time to me.


Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)


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## brian john

oldman said:


> Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain)


I thought MT also but did a search of his quotes and nothing came up for this one and the list of his sayings is LONGGGGGGGGGG.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

brian john said:


> “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove any doubt.”
> 
> Famous quote Author unknown at this time to me.


 Stupid no. Stubborn... yes.


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## steelersman

brian john said:


> I thought MT also but did a search of his quotes and nothing came up for this one and the list of his sayings is LONGGGGGGGGGG.


If you just simply google the quote instead of the author it will come up as Twain.


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## Celtic

RUSSIAN said:


> ..... maybe management should take a look at the way they ran the company....



Management has their own problems:
*Executive can't pay his loans*



> Jim Press once ran Chrysler, but now he's surrounded by unpaid bills.


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## oldman

when a company agrees to contract with union labor, they lose a lot of liberties. many of these lost liberties lead directly to forced decisions. many of these forced decisions are good for neither the company, or the union employee....but in some cases they are good for the union bosses...


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## traveler

times are good, times are bad.....the Union BA still gets his check every week.

Cubs....remember that.

The union can provide you SOME protection on the job site.....but you really end up on your own. You REPUTATION and work ethic will keep you working (most of the time).

~joe


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> Management has their own problems:
> *Executive can't pay his loans*


Just like workers assuming OT will be there as they spend beyond their means, executives fall into the same trap.


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## miller_elex

brian john said:


> Just like workers assuming OT will be there as they spend beyond their means,


Best advice for an apprentice: DO NOT buy that shiny new truck. It will go by-by.


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## Celtic

brian john said:


> Just like workers assuming OT will be there as they spend beyond their means, executives fall into the same trap.


True, but when an exec. that is "supposed" to understand these things fails at his own personal finances ~ I have no sympathy for that exec.


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## Celtic

miller_elex said:


> Best advice for an apprentice: DO NOT buy that shiny new truck. It will go by-by.


Best advice is to never buy a new vehicle for personal use. :thumbsup:


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> True, but when an exec. that is "supposed" to understand these things fails at his own personal finances ~ I have no sympathy for that exec.


To be honest I have no sympathy for anyone that over spends for goodies that are not a necessity.



> Best advice for an apprentice: DO NOT buy that shiny new truck. It will go by-by.


And drops in value in a split second. I have had several apprentices over the years that HAD TO HAVE A NEW car/truck, then they financed with a 5 or 7 year note. Next they wrecked it in the first year and found out what upside down means, when they owe more than the vehicle is worth.


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## MDShunk

brian john said:


> To be honest I have no sympathy for anyone that over spends for goodies that are not a necessity.


I think the same thing every time I'm in line behind someone paying with food stamps. It's amazing the garbage you're allowed to buy with food stamps. They should make them buy actual food and not just any damn thing they sell in the grocery store that you can eat.


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## Electriad

MDShunk said:


> I think the same thing every time I'm in line behind someone paying with food stamps. It's amazing the garbage you're allowed to buy with food stamps. They should make them buy actual food and not just any damn thing they sell in the grocery store that you can eat.


 My first job was at a ShopRite. I remember hearing all the people who worked at the Customer Service counter complain because the people would go there to buy junk food with food stamps and then use cash to buy cigarettes and alcohol.


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## Celtic

MDShunk said:


> They should make them buy actual food and not just any damn thing they sell in the grocery store that you can eat.


You can eat "OE 800"? :blink:


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## Electriad

I was wondering what that was so I Googled it:


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## Bob Badger

> You can eat "OE 800"?






Electriad said:


> I was wondering what that was so I Googled it:



I am willing to try. :whistling2:


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## knowshorts

Good lord, that's a big bottle!


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## Celtic

knowshorts said:


> Good lord, that's a big bottle!


That's only a 40 oz. ....it's a "primer"

The 64 oz is big...the "entree":
















:laughing:


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## MDShunk

knowshorts said:


> Good lord, that's a big bottle!


You might be showing your age. That's what's known now as a "Fourty". Older generations might order a quart, but hardly anything comes in quarts now. It's all 40's.


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## brian john

Boy this thread has taken many turns.

I have seen many things I think are wrong, several weeks ago about a woman in front of me buying small packages of chips and other single servings for lunches (I assumed) when a wiser choice would be a large bag and baggiies.

Paid with food stamps

Another woman impeccable nails painted with little designs had two purchases one for food with food stamps the other cigarettes and beer with cash.

Lastly a guy in front of me at 7-11 was complaining about all the folks buying lottery tickets. I told him I keep telling myself it's OK, as the lottery is how we make sure the poor pay their fair share of taxes.


Maybe a mandatory course for welfare and food stamp recipients on how to wisely use money and food stamps.


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## MDShunk

brian john said:


> Maybe a mandatory course for welfare and food stamp recipients on how to wisely use money and food stamps.


It wouldn't bother me a bit if they changed it so that all they could buy were raw ingredients. Flour, sugar, baking powder, roasts, sacks of potatoes, sacks of rice, raw veggies, etc.


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## Celtic

MDShunk said:


> You might be showing your age. That's what's known now as a "Fourty". Older generations might order a quart, but hardly anything comes in quarts now. It's all 40's.


YOU might be showing your age! 

Any hood rat will tell you it's a 2-2-0 

I'm surprised they could do the math :laughing:


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## steelersman

MDShunk said:


> That's what's known now as a "Fourty".


It's actually "forty", not "fourty".


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## MDShunk

steelersman said:


> It's actually "forty", not "fourty".


Even if I wrote that out for forty days and fourty nights, I'd still get it wrong.


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## brian john

Celtic said:


> YOU might be showing your age!
> 
> Any hood rat will tell you it's a 2-2-0
> 
> I'm surprised they could do the math :laughing:


 
I thought it was 420?


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## brian john

al13nw4r3LC76 said:


> Stupid no. Stubborn... yes.


 
That's two of us with the same personality (FLAW?).....Nah


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## Celtic

brian john said:


> I thought it was 420?


Shame on you...a business owner and upstanding pillar of the community should know nothing of 420


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## traveler

sometimes you gotta have a stress relief.


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## Celtic

traveler said:


> sometimes you gotta have a stress relief.


Brian will go kayaking or something instead of doing that.


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## al13nw4r3LC76

Looking back on my posts I noticed I (maybe a little) was very swayed to one side without too much experience on the other side of the fence. Union is what I enjoy and is working for me now. I enjoy the skill I am gaining and the craftsmanship I get to show in my work daily. It appears there are many that enjoy working non-union which is their choice. Whatever works for you. :thumbsup:


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## brian john

When I was a worker open shop I wanted in the local but it took 8 years, I finally relented and came in as an R (residential) worker. But in 2 years I became an A journeyman. I did this not for olitical reasons but for monetary reasons.

I have always felt from a workers point of view you have to (usually) work 40 hours a week, 50-52 weeks a year for 30-40 years, why not take home the most money and best benefits you can get for all that time?


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