# Customer wants Generac?



## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I have a customer that wants a whole-house generator system installed. But he has been "shopping" on the `net, and has come across several sites pushing Generac units.

I tried to talk him out of getting one, but once he compares the price of a Kohler, or Winco, he goes right back to saying he doesn't want to spend the extra $$$$.

The Generac system he has priced out utilizes one of those cheap, self-contained "pre-wired" sub-panel/transfer switches. I don't really want to deal with one of those, but would rather install a real transfer switch that uses the entire panel, without the need for a sub-panel. Besides, his panel is in a bedroom, and the transfer switch should be located outside.

How do you handle such requests? I'm willing to hook up whatever he buys, but IF he buys this stuff, I won't warrant anything except my connections.


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I have installed many Gnerac generators. and i can honestly report that I have not had any callbacks on them, ( newer models in the last 7 yrs or so only). I have a guy that services them monthly and have had no issues (yet)


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> I have a customer that wants a whole-house generator system installed. But he has been "shopping" on the `net, and has come across several sites pushing Generac units.
> 
> I tried to talk him out of getting one, but once he compares the price of a Kohler, or Winco, he goes right back to saying he doesn't want to spend the extra $$$$.
> 
> ...


Can you install AFCI breakers in that panel if not then that is how you can get him..:thumbup:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

I buy them from my supplier and not HD.. I dont know if there is a difference


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

The price difference is not that much between a service rated TS and the sub-panel he wants..

He has greater selection of what he wants to run with the SRTS.. it also comes with a controller that he can regulate what loads run at one time.. 

When ever it comes time for a panel change, he won't have to pay extra to remove and install the sub-panel..

There really aren't any good reasons to use a sub-panel.. you save very little money in the beginning.. but pay much more in the end..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> I have a customer that wants a whole-house generator system installed. But he has been "shopping" on the `net, and has come across several sites pushing Generac units.
> 
> I tried to talk him out of getting one, but once he compares the price of a Kohler, or Winco, he goes right back to saying he doesn't want to spend the extra $$$$.
> 
> ...


You should never allow the customer to supply anything because he is just trying to cut out your profit.

And if something goes wrong he will blame you.:blink:


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Ask him how long he expects the generator to last. Then compare the prices of the generators. Whatever the difference is divide that cost over the course of 20 years and ask him if "x" amount per day/ week/ month is worth going with the cheaper and less dependable generator.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

I worked with a resi-company that installed these regularly and from what I gathered about them is that they are *junk.* We installed 3 while I was working there (serviced several more previously installed) and there were several motor related defects that had to be fixed under warranty. Even the journeyman in charge of the service calls talked crap about them constantly.


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> I have a customer that wants a whole-house generator system installed. But he has been "shopping" on the `net, and has come across several sites pushing Generac units.
> 
> I tried to talk him out of getting one, but once he compares the price of a Kohler, or Winco, he goes right back to saying he doesn't want to spend the extra $$$$.
> 
> ...


Not everyone wants a Mercedes. The Generac makes a fine residential standby system, not the best but there fine. Don't believe the hype. 



HARRY304E said:


> that is how you can get him..:thumbup:


If your out to get your customer then what type of generator they want is the least of your problems.
:thumbsup:


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## Motorwinder (Dec 30, 2010)

The few Generacs I've worked on, I found them easy to work on and good quality. I haven't seen many. I guess they don't break down much.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

You can check prices on the site.. they are the lowest out there that I have found on the Internet.. http://www.norwall.com/


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

Just remember that If you install a SRTS then the existing panel becomes a sub and the service cable becomes a feeder.

That is of course if it isn't already.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

If your customer wants generac than just give it to him. Trying to talk him out of it is like trying to tell a customer that he doesnt want a steak but he should have salmon instead because its better for him.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> I worked with a resi-company that installed these regularly and from what I gathered about them is that they are *junk.* We installed 3 while I was working there (serviced several more previously installed) and there were several motor related defects that had to be fixed under warranty. Even the journeyman in charge of the service calls talked crap about them constantly.


Were they the Centurion units?


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jefft110 said:


> Just remember that If you install a SRTS then the existing panel becomes a sub and the service cable becomes a feeder.
> 
> That is of course if it isn't already.


Yeah, already considered. The panel is back-to-back from the meter, so we would have to replace all the feeder cables. Probably would use an outside SRTS, and then some conduit into the back of the panel run on the outside of the house.

Don't the Generac units require a propriety transfer switch? :blink:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

This is what i said.




HARRY304E said:


> Can you install AFCI breakers in that panel if not then that is how you can get him..:thumbup:


 And This is what you made my post say..There is a difference...:blink::no:



> Originally Posted by *HARRY304E*
> _ that is how you can get him..:thumbup:_





gold said:


> If your out to get your customer then what type of generator they want is the least of your problems.
> :thumbsup:



There is no need to edit someones post to make it look something different then what was said, just a thought..


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

rnr electric said:


> I have installed many Gnerac generators. and i can honestly report that I have not had any callbacks on them, ( newer models in the last 7 yrs or so only). I have a guy that services them monthly and have had no issues (yet)



They require _monthly_ servicing?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> They require _monthly_ servicing?


Twice a year on standard maintenance.. filters.. oil.. spark plugs..


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## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

gold said:


> If your out to get your customer then what type of generator they want is the least of your problems.
> :thumbsup:





HARRY304E said:


> And This is what you made my post say..There is a difference...:blink::no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was busting your chops Harry see the thumb?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

gold said:


> I was busting your chops Harry see the thumb?


:thumbsup:


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## rnr electric (Jan 29, 2010)

kbsparky said:


> They require _monthly_ servicing?


 no.. and good point:001_huh:. we have a generac service company here and i send all install customers to them for servicing. TBH i dont know how often they service them, but all of my installs are from my regular contractors so if they went bad i would have heard of it.


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

Just get a regular Generac ATS. You don't have to use the panel/ATS combo. The cost difference is not much. Go to the site BT4 mentioned and pay with a check to get a discount. 

I've always used Generac generators and have experienced a few warranty issues throughout the years (sticking gas valve, blown seals, failed transfer switch). They were minor issues for the most part and were fixed quicky. 

is kohler realy that much better?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

kbsparky said:


> I have a customer that wants a whole-house generator system installed. But he has been "shopping" on the `net, and has come across several sites pushing Generac units.
> 
> I tried to talk him out of getting one, but once he compares the price of a Kohler, or Winco, he goes right back to saying he doesn't want to spend the extra $$$$.
> 
> ...


You know the correct answer to your question...grasshopper. Seriously, just tell them what you have told us. I, personally would not rag on Generac. If they sell the customer the unit, they will warranty the unit. If you are unsure of your abilities to install a Generac, don't bid the job.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

There is a ton of info on the web for anyone interested in looking. People like this will ALWAYS shop price, and will listen to anyone's advice that serves them best.





kbsparky said:


> I'm willing to hook up whatever he buys, but IF he buys this stuff, I won't warrant anything except my connections.


THIS my friend is your answer. :thumbsup:

Heck, how would you warranty the unit either way? You did not manufacture it, so what real warranty could you even offer if you provided the unit?
I have had cases where I provided the unit and had to have to serviced under warranty. I went out and looked at it. When I determined there was nothing I could do I referred them to a service provider.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

B4T said:


> You can check prices on the site.. they are the lowest out there that I have found on the Internet.. http://www.norwall.com/



And the 20kw Kohler is, according to the homepage slide show, only about $500 more than the Generac......

So I would pay the little bit extra for the Kohler, if it were me. That works out to what, about $25.00 more per year over a 20 year lifespan...not too bad for a better quality product INHO.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mxslick said:


> And the 20kw Kohler is, according to the homepage slide show, only about $500 more than the Generac......
> 
> So I would pay the little bit extra for the Kohler, if it were me. That works out to what, about $25.00 more per year over a 20 year lifespan...not too bad for a better quality product INHO.


Does Kohler make their generators, or just the propulsion.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mxslick said:


> And the 20kw Kohler is, according to the homepage slide show, only about $500 more than the Generac......
> 
> So I would pay the little bit extra for the Kohler, if it were me. That works out to what, about $25.00 more per year over a 20 year lifespan...not too bad for a better quality product INHO.


But HOW do you know it is better.. :blink::blink:

I think most of these generator companies copy each other and build it for a cheaper price..


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Does Kohler make their generators, or just the propulsion.


For small generators they do make their own engines for generator head it useally their own but for larger unit it kinda toss up there are few generator head manufacter I know make few for couple generator unit manufacters.

For the engine the Air cooled verison they do make their own verison that I know for a fact but liquid cooled verison it kinda toss up depending on KW size and they do have liquid cooled verison of air cooled engine they used in marine useage.

For 100 KW and larger I will know which engine manufacter they used on their units but smaller one it kinda mixed bags.

Merci,
Marc


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

B4T said:


> But HOW do you know it is better.. :blink::blink:
> 
> I think most of these generator companies copy each other and build it for a cheaper price..


I agree with that. 

One is a Hyundai (cheaper parts), and one is a Ford.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

For the larger stationary gasoline/NG Generac units, the engine displacement numbers suggest they use Ford engines. Can anyone confirm or deny this?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Peter D said:


> For the larger stationary gasoline/NG Generac units, the engine displacement numbers suggest they use Ford engines. Can anyone confirm or deny this?


Oui they do use the Ford gaz engine up to 125 KW size I will find the spec chart for it. { not sure if they change the engine on 80 - 100 KW size now due the Ford no longer make V-10 engine that I will check on it }

Merci,
Marc


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Peter .,

I am suprised they still stock the V-10 engine for the generator useage here the link 

http://www.generac.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/SpecSheets/0188710SBY-B QT150 6.8L w Nexus Contol.pdf

I do not know how long they will keep this PDF on this type of the engine heard they may change the engine line up soon IDK at the moment.

Merci,
Marc


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

frenchelectrican said:


> Peter .,
> 
> I am suprised they still stock the V-10 engine for the generator useage here the link
> 
> ...


Why do say the engine is a Generac when clearly the 6.8L V10 is a Ford unit?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Why do say the engine is a Generac when clearly the 6.8L V10 is a Ford unit?


I know it kinda odd due the Generac did buy Ford engine and they relabel it as privte unit and they won't really admit that is a leigt Ford engine in the PDF or brochure listing.

More like a marketing gimmick when they rebrand it. It basically the same with some of the tools I get as well.


Merci,
Marc


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

All of the ones I have done were bought through a local supplier and all have come with a tech at start up when the unit was ready to be turned on. It has been the same for 7 kw natural gas up to an 800 kw diesel. My question is if you buy one off of the internet who does the start up? Do you need a factory authorized guy at start up to get the warranty? Even on the small ones they really run it through the tests, Do you guys do the start up?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

cabletie said:


> All of the ones I have done were bought through a local supplier and all have come with a tech at start up when the unit was ready to be turned on. It has been the same for 7 kw natural gas up to an 800 kw diesel. My question is if you buy one off of the internet who does the start up? Do you need a factory authorized guy at start up to get the warranty? Even on the small ones they really run it through the tests, Do you guys do the start up?


The start up is easy.. you have to get the serial number.. go online to Generac.. and they give you a code number that "unlocks" the computer on the generator..

You do a couple of voltage checks and you are done..


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

They really aren't that hard to install as stated above. I had a few problems with a couple of portables and one bad Nexus control board. One email to the Generac guy that was on here not too long ago and had a new board with a tech to replace it almost immediately. Not too bad I thought.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I would just connect whatever the customer bought. I just think it is a pain to try to go through the house and pick out circuits.
I had an install where I just put a 100 amp breaker in the generac panel and fed the existing house panel. Never tripped and never had a problem, didnt need to worry about the loads.
BTW, FPL installed the new smart meters here and I havent been able to get more than 12kw out of my 1800/ 2000 sf all electric house. 

House is about 4 to 5kw with the 4 ton AC and 5 TVs on at once.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

If he doesn't need more circuits than what the loan comes with, you"d be wasting his money to buy a srts. The panels will accommodate afci's. So unless he needs more circuits than what will fit, I'd install exactly that.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

jbrookers said:


> Just get a regular Generac ATS. You don't have to use the panel/ATS combo. The cost difference is not much. Go to the site BT4 mentioned and pay with a check to get a discount.
> 
> I've always used Generac generators and have experienced a few warranty issues throughout the years (sticking gas valve, blown seals, failed transfer switch). They were minor issues for the most part and were fixed quicky.
> 
> is kohler realy that much better?


Not true, many times they sell these as combos, and there is substantial savings in using the panel that comes with it, versus buying a separate transfer switch.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

Generac is a very decent product. You get a lot of bang for you buck. The installs are smooth. The only design issue I have is that there is not enough room to land the wires on the breaker. I have had few issues with them. One issue the ribbon cable came loose during transportation and caused the screen not to function. The other was the remote monitor wouldn't except the signal from the transmitter. Called tech support for both problems and they were very helpful. I would always recommend a Generac.

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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> If he doesn't need more circuits than what the loan comes with, you"d be wasting his money to buy a srts. The panels will accommodate afci's. So unless he needs more circuits than what will fit, I'd install exactly that.


Same here. I have one to do next week. I let the guy buy it. I told him to purchase it, ask the building department where he can put it, set it in place, call me to hook it up. 

He's buying an 8kw Generac with a 100 circuit panel/ats. He's going to select the circuits he wants powered. Keep it simple.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I also have one that wants one. My problem is the electrician that upgraded the service.......left the meter directly on top of the gas meter and fed into the meterpan on the right. So we need to excavate the old lateral and relocate it to another wall away from the gas, AC and all the other jazz on that wall. Since the boys wills be doing the digging, he's thinking about moving the generac away from the house . I got to put an install/ service correction number together, somewhere about 4k labor, 2.5 days.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> I also have one that wants one. My problem is the electrician that upgraded the service.......left the meter directly on top of the gas meter and fed into the meterpan on the right. So we need to excavate the old lateral and relocate it to another wall away from the gas, AC and all the other jazz on that wall. Since the boys wills be doing the digging, he's thinking about moving the generac away from the house . I got to put an install/ service correction number together, somewhere about 4k labor, 2.5 days.


 
Around here, you only need 3' clearance from meter to gas vent, or 10' for OCPD to gas vent. And that only applies if the regulator vents to atmosphere. You could actually pipe the vent to another location and leave the gas meter.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

kbsparky said:


> Were they the Centurion units?


I have no idea, they had "Generac" on the box, that's all I know. One that we installed didn't even start up. I'm sure that homeowner was thrilled. :laughing:

Another we had sat in the shop because the rotor came in contact with the stator and it destroyed itself.

A few days before a snowstorm was due to come through a homeowner went to give his a test run and that turn into a service call. 

I didn't work for that company longer than 3 months. And seeing as Generac sales were their main focus I'm glad I didn't. I would never stand behind that product.


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## aksparky (Dec 1, 2007)

I work for a company that has installed alot of generators, Generac, Kohler, and Cummins, out of the 3 brands we have had more problems with the Kohlers than Generac or Cummins.

Since the code change requiring us to size the Generator for the load that is automatically transfered it has changed the game,theres lots of install options out there, you can install a Load shedding Transfer switch or install a essential circuit sub panel and size the Generator for the sub panel but the Generac pre-wired load center transfer switch is actually a labor saving unit, and a heck of alot cheaper when bought as a package.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

aksparky said:


> I work for a company that has installed alot of generators, Generac, Kohler, and Cummins, out of the 3 brands we have had more problems with the Kohlers than Generac or Cummins.


Yours is the first post on this forum that has said Kohler has more problems than Generac.. 

Good to hear from someone who installs all the major brands.. :thumbsup:

The ratio is 1000 to 1.. :laughing:


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## aksparky (Dec 1, 2007)

B4T said:


> Yours is the first post on this forum that has said Kohler has more problems than Generac..
> 
> Good to hear from someone who installs all the major brands.. :thumbsup:
> 
> The ratio is 1000 to 1.. :laughing:


 
Just telling what we have experienced, i could care less who installs what.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

aksparky said:


> I work for a company that has installed alot of generators, Generac, Kohler, and Cummins, out of the 3 brands we have had more problems with the Kohlers than Generac or Cummins.
> 
> Since the code change requiring us to size the Generator for the load that is automatically transfered it has changed the game,theres lots of install options out there, you can install a Load shedding Transfer switch or install a essential circuit sub panel and size the Generator for the sub panel but the Generac pre-wired load center transfer switch is actually a labor saving unit, and a heck of alot cheaper when bought as a package.


 I just ordered a 10kw Generac with pre wired switch for a customer today. I gave him two options and he wanted the generac. Fine by me...


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Give the people what they want or someone else will.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

I prefer the Kohler and Cummins and won't get into why. The only thing I don't like about the small Kohlers is that they don't give you a spot to enter from underneath. The spot right under the main is for the battery. Learned that one the hard way . The tech had to install a gell cell battery (for the higher temp.) in the engine compartment for the warranty.


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

aksparky said:


> I work for a company that has installed alot of generators, Generac, Kohler, and Cummins, out of the 3 brands we have had more problems with the Kohlers than Generac or Cummins.
> 
> Since the code change requiring us to size the Generator for the load that is automatically transfered it has changed the game,theres lots of install options out there, you can install a Load shedding Transfer switch or install a essential circuit sub panel and size the Generator for the sub panel but the Generac pre-wired load center transfer switch is actually a labor saving unit, and a heck of alot cheaper when bought as a package.


Where exactly does it say that we have to size the generator based on load. Residential use only please. TY

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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

702.5 (B) 2 (a,b) 2008 code


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## Salvatoreg02 (Feb 26, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> 702.5 (B) 2 (a,b) 2008 code


Had I know you were looking there. 
There is no requirement for residential use.

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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Read 702.2 Definition I think its the proper interpretation (read the FPN). Anyone else?


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## piperunner (Aug 22, 2009)

rnr electric said:


> I buy them from my supplier and not HD.. I dont know if there is a difference


HD supply started out selling junk from the beginning .
Thats how they got to be big .

Because we go there for the lowest price so you get what you pay for in my book . 


People will buy anything cheap a name doesnt mean anything today just about anything today is junk .

But the folks who bitch about Generac generators theres no difference from brand to brand there all the same junk .

You get a good one or a bad one its like anything you purchase today its all made cheap and put together so it last two years thats it .


Not electrical but if you buy a 2x4 at Home Depo and buy a 2x4 at Lowes .

The price is higher at Lowes because the wooden 2x4 is straight !

You have to go through the pile at Home Depo and find the straight ones .


I think it maybe true with some products at HD most of there stuff in boxes are re taped wonder why .


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