# Just in Case someone asks why you are a member



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I know this thread we get the same negative comments from the usual suspects.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

jrannis said:


> The objects of the IBEW are: To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions; To promote reasonable methods of work; To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry; To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible); To assist each other in sickness or distress; To secure employment; To reduce the hours of daily labor; To secure adequate pay for out work; To seek a higher and higher standard of living; To seek security for the individual; And, by legal and proper means, to elevate the moral, intellectual, and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship


 good idea in 1950. but will it work these days? seems our standard of living, on the whole is being lowered to the rest of the world. :blink:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

John, I had no idea that your shop was union. Go figure.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I know this thread we get the same negative comments from the usual suspects.


Let me see if I got this right.

There are 8 bazillion pro-union posts on this site.

The union itself almost always puts down those outside the union. 

The union has come to jobs I work on and set up a giant inflatable Rat










The union has put salts into the companies I have worked for to disrupt things. 


And you don't want to hear any negative comments about the union. 

Sorry but that just seems ridiculous, you belong to an organization that treats non-members like crap so you going to have to learn to deal with some negative comments.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Sorry but that just seems ridiculous, you belong to an organization that treats non-members like crap so you going to have to learn to deal with some negative comments.


You weren't expecting _consistency,_ were you Bob? :blink:


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The objects of the IBEW are: To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions; To promote reasonable methods of work; To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry; To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible); To assist each other in sickness or distress; To secure employment; To reduce the hours of daily labor; To secure adequate pay for out work; To seek a higher and higher standard of living; To seek security for the individual; And, by legal and proper means, to elevate the moral, intellectual, and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship


I don't see anything in there about maintaining a superior level of craftmanship or giving an employer 8 hours of work for 8 hours pay. That's what Ed Hill says is the bedrock of the IBEW.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

amptech said:


> I don't see anything in there about maintaining a superior level of craftmanship or giving an employer 8 hours of work for 8 hours pay. That's what Ed Hill says is the bedrock of the IBEW.


I like Ed Hill. I always thought he says and does the right things. On down the line, though, they don't seem to actually happen. Here's a good video from a few years back that really got me tuned into his thoughts; fairly transformational thoughts that he doesn't seem to get much cooperation on. 

http://www.ibew.org/media/Officers/stateoftheunion-1.wmv


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

drsparky said:


> I know this thread we get the same negative comments from the usual suspects.


 I'm sure it will about 1/4 of the treads end up comparing union to nonunion. Hell we went from talking about females to gay hispanics on another tread.:laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

DO you think this rat is directed at the workers who by there very presense, are making a living by destroying the quality of life for others who worked had to raise those standards?



Bob Badger said:


> Let me see if I got this right.
> 
> There are 8 bazillion pro-union posts on this site.
> 
> ...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

william1978 said:


> I'm sure it will about 1/4 of the treads end up comparing union to nonunion. Hell we went from talking about females to gay hispanics on another tread.:laughing:


"Nonunion black Jewish lesbians, on the next Oprah Winfrey show..."


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## John (Jan 22, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The objects of the IBEW are: To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions; To promote reasonable methods of work; To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry; To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible); To assist each other in sickness or distress; To secure employment; To reduce the hours of daily labor; To secure adequate pay for out work; To seek a higher and higher standard of living; To seek security for the individual; And, by legal and proper means, to elevate the moral, intellectual, and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship


You just pegged th BS meter on this bit of information. Where pray tell did you get this bit of information from?

Are you ready Ladies and Gentlemen for the....










Now tell me why I would want to belong to the IBEW.
No BS, just straight talk on the benefits.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

John said:


> Now tell me why I would want to belong to the IBEW.
> No BS, just straight talk on the benefits.


You could end up the captain of the sinking ship, I suppose. 

They've lost their market share a long time ago, have made zero gains in the last 20 years in market share, and now it sure looks like the NEBF might be sorely underfunded. That benefit might not actually be there for the present batch of apprentices when they need it.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Wow, that was an insightful video.

Sounds to me like the IBEW is all but dead.

They gotta be doin' _something_ wrong if they're losing so many customers.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> Sounds to me like the IBEW is all but dead.


 When I was in the union a few years ago thats what they were saying in the meetings that in a decade or so that the IBEW would be really hurting.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

william1978 said:


> When I was in the union a few years ago thats what they were saying in the meetings that in a decade or so that the IBEW would be really hurting.


That's too bad since if they became more competitive with the open shops it would only be a benefit to everyone, Union and non-union alike. So long as there wasn't any destroyed property or injuries of course.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Frasbee said:


> That's too bad since if they became more competitive with the open shops it would only be a benefit to everyone, Union and non-union alike.


 I agree.:thumbsup:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> DO you think this rat is directed at the workers who by there very presense, are making a living by destroying the quality of life for others who worked had to raise those standards?


Thanks for proving my point, I can always count on it.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> You could end up the captain of the sinking ship, I suppose.


 Like Ed Hill.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks for proving my point, I can always count on it.


You know what they say: "Give someone an inch of rope to hang themselves, and they take a mile."


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Thanks for proving my point, I can always count on it.


No problem, let's all just work ourselves into poverty... that makes sense. :whistling2:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> They've lost their market share a long time ago, have made zero gains in the last 20 years in market share,


Why are we here at 90%??

The great majority of non-union electricians here go out on their own.
That way they can trip over each other lowballing for the work.

Yeah, my PM is a ****, but he's way better than some screaming owner who pays half what the union pays to a wireman.

The non-union game is to pay about 60%, but heap on the overtime. 
When its crunch time, I've seen guys sleeping in their vans on the job. Apprentices too, no journeyman around. Any moment they weren't getting an hour of shut-eye, ****ting, or eating, they were working. They were good guys, and there was no need for it to be that way.

Edit: Crunchtime was about two weeks long.

Same job when the shack moved, there was a bunch of used hypos underneath it.

Reminds me that we are the bottom crust of society, and unless we stick together, we'll end up like the electricians in Dubai, making $2 a day.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The objects of the IBEW are: To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada,


Actually tht statement is not true, the goal is to LIMIT the number of electrricians forcing a shortage and driving wages up.




> Why are we here at 90%??
> 
> The great majority of non-union electricians here go out on their own.
> That way they can trip over each other lowballing for the work.
> ...


Are you blissful?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Why are we here at 90%??


Bests me, but I think that someone may have lied to you. Your own IBEW president says that no matter how you measure it, total jobs, total hours worked, dollar value of work, signatories, etc, the the union has not had the majority market share for decades.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have said this time and time again.

If the IBEW wants a larger market share.

One - Quit trashing open shop electricians. Number one reason open shop electricians HATE the union is the union members and their arrogant attitudes and bullying.
Two - Show business owners the benefit of being a union shop. 

So I ask again - What are the TRUE, REAL, not freaking union lawyers lies of the benefit to a owner switching teams?

Because if the owners and public in general have a bad taste in their mouths to unionizing the unions will continue to lose market share.

Picketing and strikes, only reinforce the public opinion that unions are destroying the American work force. Now while this may not be true Perception is everything.

Ask the average American why we lost market share in the manufacturing of steel and the response will be unreasonable unions. Not all the other market forces and changing world economy.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> So I ask again - What are the TRUE, REAL, not freaking union lawyers lies of the benefit to a owner switching teams?


I can only think of one... if you need a large skilled labor force NOW, they can make it happen. Sorta like a specialized temp service. :thumbsup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I can only think of one... if you need a large skilled labor force NOW, they can make it happen. Sorta like a specialized temp service. :thumbsup:


 
And in our area the open shop guys use the Washington Post and have the same level of crap shoot with recieving a skilled work force.

I know this is the union stance, but I think they should try to offer more.

An example- I am told that the wage negotiations going on at present are asking for raises (from ridiculously low to extravagantly high depending on who you ask). Seems to me in a bad economy now is not a good time to ask for more money as we (as an owner) are trying to trim cost to remain competitive. 

SOME union members I have discussed this with told me if you can cut it quit someone will fill you place. While a true statement not necessarily what a contractor wants to be told by his work force.

During the last down turn the teamsters struck a large concrete company, the company filed bankruptcy, folded and their assets were bought by an open shop company. The drivers are no longer union. What did they win?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

brian john said:


> I have said this time and time again.
> 
> If the IBEW wants a larger market share.
> 
> ...


Honestly?

The stories of picketing and harassment turn me off of the Union.

Why the hell do they need to picket anymore? What is this, the 1950's? You don't need to bully people anymore, we're past that.

This is a new age.

You know what attracts customers?
*
Advertisements.*

Websites.

Word of mouth.

C'mon, they're _electricians_. Put up those flashing lights!


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> "Nonunion black Jewish lesbians, on the next Oprah Winfrey show..."


 OK?????


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> One - Quit trashing open shop electricians. Number one reason open shop electricians HATE the union is the union members and their arrogant attitudes and bullying.


BINGO!, I really do not want to be associated with any organization that uses those tactics. 



> Picketing and strikes, only reinforce the public opinion that unions are destroying the American work force.


I agree.



> Perception is everything.


It sure is and I know what my perception of this union action was at the time .... 


http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma..._duty_officers_jeer_impede_civilian_flaggers/

These are the people we expect to be professionals, does the union really think these types of pickets _HELP_ their cause?

If they do I think they are really out of touch with the reality.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

What's with Mass police in other states the low level, non skilled are trained to do this job in 10 minutes and I have never seen any issues I can think of.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> Honestly?
> 
> The stories of picketing and harassment turn me off of the Union.


 
Stories? *STORIES????*


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have said this time and time again.
> 
> If the IBEW wants a larger market share.
> 
> One - Quit trashing open shop electricians. Number one reason open shop electricians HATE the union is the union members and their arrogant attitudes and bullying.


Wrong-o, though it's your opinion and technically can't be "wrong," I say the #1 reason is jealousy. Apprenticeships open, many apply, few are chosen, the rest do what? Sulk about how the union sucks because THEY couldn't get in. SOUR GRAPES.

Ex-benchwarmers I put at the #2 reason, the journeymen who never quite remain employed long enough for union work to be financially viable. These are typically the last hired and the first let go, every job, every time. Off to work rat and moan and groan about how the union sucks because not only couldn't they get away with being a problem child, but also there's not a snowball's chance in heck they'll ever make it nonunion either.



> Two - Show business owners the benefit of being a union shop.
> 
> So I ask again - What are the TRUE, REAL, not freaking union lawyers lies of the benefit to a owner switching teams?


Except for a few rare exceptions, you have unlimited supply of skilled labor. This is of no benifit to you if you're incapable of securing it, or just not interested in big work and want to stay small. 



> Because if the owners and public in general have a bad taste in their mouths to unionizing the unions will continue to lose market share.
> 
> Picketing and strikes, only reinforce the public opinion that unions are destroying the American work force. Now while this may not be true Perception is everything.


All of the bad taste was put there by corporate America's anti-labor compaign. Pickets and strikes might be negative on their face, but witholding labor and disrupting the corporate routine are the only tools organized labor has to fight. 

Labor unions aren't perfect, it's not a perfect fail safe totally honest system. There are abuses, as with any other organization from Churches to Religions to Charities to political parties to you name it.

But I doubt anyone here can deny this truth - as labor unions grow weaker, the quality of life and the standard of living for the American middle class is dwindling. No more jobs with pensions and full benifits, costs too much. No more 3,4 week vacations or 8 hour days either, need you to stay late and be a "team player..." 

The wealth of this nation has been shifted to the very few, and however you feel about that I think it's just wrong. I don't think 90% of this country should be working to keep 2% of it unimaginably rich. 



> Ask the average American why we lost market share in the manufacturing of steel and the response will be unreasonable unions. Not all the other market forces and changing world economy.


Yet Steel is not cheaper today, it's more expensive. All that changed by outsourcing was who made the money - now 90% of it goes to the parent corporation and 10% of it goes to the labor that produced it. So, HOW has America gotten better by this? 

Do you think cheap foreign outsourcing is good because (in the begining) the price of the product is less? You DO realize what happens when the industry is entirely in foreign control and has 100% market share, right?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> And in our area the open shop guys use the Washington Post and have the same level of crap shoot with recieving a skilled work force.
> 
> I know this is the union stance, but I think they should try to offer more.
> 
> An example- I am told that the wage negotiations going on at present are asking for raises (from ridiculously low to extravagantly high depending on who you ask). *Seems to me in a bad economy now is not a good time to ask for more money as we (as an owner) are trying to trim cost to remain competitive. *


Of course you do. Because as we all know the cost of all your material and overhead have certianly gone down, right? So has the cost of food clothing and shelter, not to mention taxes, it's all been slashed to the bone so _why shouldn't labor take a pay cut_, right Brian?

Geez what a shortsighted maroon you must be...

And of course, you didn't leave out the classic qualifier "remain competitive..." F you and your competitiveness, labor doesn't owe you a living - If you can't make it because this economy can't support every business that once existed when the economy was doing great - then do the responsible thing and close the g damned shop. You all can't stay in business when the're 1/2 as much work to be done. But OH NO... you owners want LABOR to take the, what's that you call it... RISK? (Gee I thought capital was allowed unlimited profit because of all that supreme risk-taking???)

Once again - it's the old double standard - you want capatilism and competitiveness for labor, and socialism for your business... Can't help but laugh at the irony.



> SOME union members I have discussed this with told me if you can cut it quit someone will fill you place. While a true statement not necessarily what a contractor wants to be told by his work force.


Too bad. You know darn well many shops open when the economy is robust, and many fold around these bleaker days. Why should labor sacrafice so that individual shops survive? Where's your risk taking?



> During the last down turn the teamsters struck a large concrete company, the company filed bankruptcy, folded and their assets were bought by an open shop company. The drivers are no longer union. What did they win?


Yea and during the last AND this downturn 2 open shop elevator companies in NYC folded and their accounts went to union shops. 

Note to yourself Brian - pointing out labor's losses does NOT prove your case. Because if we all followed your shallow and shortsighted mentality we'll ALL be working for Walmart supplies and Home Depot Installation Services Corp. You want solutions that work for you right now. Guess what? There aren't any solutions when nobody is spending money.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LGLS you are SOOOO WRONG on this, I worked open shop 39 years ago and the BS we put up with from the other union trades and union electricians gave me a life long bad taste for the name calling, the sabotage, the endless crap.

The open shop electricians I try to organize almost 100% that have had exposure to unions tell me negative stories, salting, picketing, name calling and of course certain lies from their employers.

I am not anti-union, but the tactics utilized are not beneficial to the cause.
So live in your union fantasy world ignore the obvious and continue down the road to a smaller percentage or workers.

You are the perfect spokes person for open shop owners to remain open shop. I try to tell you what I know from speaking to owners and open shop workers and you resort to your typical no substance, name calling. 
Seems like a win win for open shop.

As for pay cuts EVERYONE is cutting cost. So you can NOT CUT COST but just maintain wages as is or take a small increase and keep what jobs are there or go for the glory as you have in the past and lose more market share.

As for folding I HOPE I can ride this out, but if a union shops fold in a market where they have a 30% share who do you think will fill the void? And even if the shop that fails and the work is taken over by union members that were on the job with a new shop, they often go open shop to minimize cost.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Stories? *STORIES????*


Direct from the National Right To Work (For less...) Foundation... :whistling2:


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Direct from the National Right To Work (For less...) Foundation... :whistling2:



Yes, I am sure all those situations where all entirely staged by anti union folks. :whistling2:

And I am sure you have never seen anything remotely like that in person. :no:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Direct from the National Right To Work (For less...) Foundation... :whistling2:


LGLS, you don't seem to comprehend that Unions have a serious _serious *serious*_ image problem. 

Now, I'm not saying that every strike and every picket line will result in an all-out free-for-all knock-down-drag-out brouhaha. But when stuff like this happens, it cannot do anything but degrade the common perception of Unions.

My first encounter with a Union was when I was 16. I was visiting Las Vegas with my family. As we left the parking ramp of a casino, our vehicle was damaged by cans and bottles tossed at us by picketing members of the local UFCW. Shouts of 'scab' and 'rat' were hailed upon us.

A family of 4..... on vacation.... doing nothing more than exiting a place of business and is treated like this.

My last encounter was a school project where the Carpenters' local contracts were up for renewal, and they went on strike and all the other union trades followed. Now, this project had a flat roof, but we could not understand why there were 1" roofing nails in the parking lot every day at quitting time.

So we started watching the picketers, and sure enough..... every so often one would slowly circle the building and, thinking no one could see, saunter through the parking lot spreading the nails.

These days, I fear crossing a picket line. Not because of the disrespect of doing so, but because *I FEAR FOR MY SAFETY AND WELL-BEING*.

If the Unions want to polish their image, they need to clean up their collective acts.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Stories? *STORIES????*


I said "stories" because I have not experienced any of these encounters myself.

I'm generally careful with my words.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

480sparky said:


> LGLS, you don't seem to comprehend that Unions have a serious _serious *serious*_ image problem.


Did anyone mention the image problem?


Seriously, LGLS if you can not see the problem there is nothing left to say.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jrannis said:


> The objects of the IBEW are: To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions; To promote reasonable methods of work; To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry; To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible); To assist each other in sickness or distress; To secure employment; To reduce the hours of daily labor; To secure adequate pay for out work; To seek a higher and higher standard of living; To seek security for the individual; And, by legal and proper means, to elevate the moral, intellectual, and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship


 
I find the title and OP of this thread very intriguing. I find it highly interesting that someone feels the need for every Brother to be given a rhetorical answer to a question they might be asked. There's nothing wrong with believing and supporting what is presented here, but would this be a proper answer to the question as suggested?

Is there some compelling reason not to want a Union member not to speak from the heart, and answer such a question of thier own free will and accord?

If you asked me why I joined AAA, would _"AAA's full-service travel locations provide quality personalized service to members and the public. Whether my travel plans include a cruise, tour, airline tickets, rail passes, or just a hotel and car rental, AAA Travel can help me find the best possible value for my vacation dollar. Their state-of-the-art, automated computer reservation system provides me with instant access to hundreds of airlines serving thousands of cities worldwide. Thay can get me where I'm going at the best price and the fastest way possible._ " sound reasonable?

I doubt anyone listening to such a response, in all seriousness, even stick around for the whole speil. Their mind would be off somewhere else, calculating their income taxes or reminding themselves to pick up some milk on the way home tonight.

If I were to ask someone that question and be given this response, about a third of the way in I would be thinking, "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I like Ed Hill. I always thought he says and does the right things. On down the line, though, they don't seem to actually happen. Here's a good video from a few years back that really got me tuned into his thoughts; fairly transformational thoughts that he doesn't seem to get much cooperation on.
> 
> http://www.ibew.org/media/Officers/stateoftheunion-1.wmv


This is a good video. I have seen it several times and see or hear something different everytime.
What I do not like about this video is it blames everything on the worker.
No where does it saying anything about management having sub standard estimators or poor management. In over 30 years very few jobs have I seen that have management (foreman-project management) with any people skills. Many foreman are chosen because they kiss the boss's ass not because they are the most qualified. 
Many foreman are not compentant is laying out work properly or having the right material for the men to continue work.
I dont know how many times I have had to redo something several times because management told us the wrong way to do it. Of course this was always blamed on labor and not management. It was almost funny, the contractor did not have time to do it right the first time, but had time to redo it several times.
As to this 5 minutes attitude, that is stupid. Human being do not work like animals, no matter how much management wants them to.
For the most part management is always at fault. For the most part if you give people the right tools and leadership they will do a gooddays work.
You will always have a few loafers around, but they can be dealt with on a one on one basis.
:thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The old saying a fish stinks from the head down, holds true.
You need good management to lead the workers with basic to excellent skills those workers will perform better with good leadership.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> Yes, I am sure all those situations where all entirely staged by anti union folks. :whistling2:
> 
> And I am sure you have never seen anything remotely like that in person. :no:


I didn't watch them all, or completely. Just viewed the source. You got a problem with people who are willing to fight for their livlihoods? IMHO that makes you a *****. Of course, you;d want ALL your employees and ALL the wqorkers of the world to simply roll over and play dead while they're trampled by theire corporate masters? 

Everything the USA became great for, came from violent acts. Like it or not, including our freedoms.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I.........You got a problem with people who are willing to fight for their livlihoods? ........


So if confronted by someone at a picket line, it's acceptable to physically assault him, or pull a gun on him, just so I can go to work in order to put food on my table and a roof over my head? 

LGLS says it's OK......... I'm just fighting for *MY* livelyhood.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I didn't watch them all, or completely. Just viewed the source. You got a problem with people who are willing to fight for their livlihoods? IMHO that makes you a *****. Of course, you;d want ALL your employees and ALL the wqorkers of the world to simply roll over and play dead while they're trampled by theire corporate masters?
> 
> *Everything the USA became great for, came from violent acts. *Like it or not, including our freedoms.


PLEASE don't tell me you are actually justifying the assholes in those videos and their actions.
I didn't watch them all either, but I have seen my share of them. I have also seen my share of this type of thing.
Regardless of the source what's on those videos happened. They were not scripted or staged. 

The first time a union goon got in my face I was a second year apprentice, so I was still green and was intimidated. The second time I ignored him. The third time I told him to GTF out of here.
Now I know better.

The people working non-unions are fighting just as hard for their livelihoods as union folks. To think otherwise is pretty arrogant.

The jerks in those videos are looking out for their situation, NOT their livelihoods!

That prick in the first video would have been told where to go if he got in my face and spoke to me like that.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> LGLS, you don't seem to comprehend that Unions have a serious _serious *serious*_ image problem.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that every strike and every picket line will result in an all-out free-for-all knock-down-drag-out brouhaha. But when stuff like this happens, it cannot do anything but degrade the common perception of Unions.
> 
> ...


It is in poor taste to patronize any business where there is a job action in progress. 



> My last encounter was a school project where the Carpenters' local contracts were up for renewal, and they went on strike and all the other union trades followed. Now, this project had a flat roof, but we could not understand why there were 1" roofing nails in the parking lot every day at quitting time.
> 
> So we started watching the picketers, and sure enough..... every so often one would slowly circle the building and, thinking no one could see, saunter through the parking lot spreading the nails.


So, you were crossing a picket.
And you're complaining that the picketers were sending a negative message?



> These days, I fear crossing a picket line. Not because of the disrespect of doing so, but because *I FEAR FOR MY SAFETY AND WELL-BEING*.
> 
> If the Unions want to polish their image, they need to clean up their collective acts.


And that cleanup would include what 480? Do nothing while your standards are being undermined? Do nothing while your employer refuses to bargain? Do nothing while scabs cross a picket line?

Sounds to me like your idea of an ideal union is one made up of pansies who'll do whatever the bossman tells them. And like it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> So if confronted by someone at a picket line, it's acceptable to physically assault him, or pull a gun on him, just so I can go to work in order to put food on my table and a roof over my head?
> 
> LGLS says it's OK......... I'm just fighting for *MY* livelyhood.


No, because YOU worry about putting a roof over YOUR head, and not at all concerned with EVERYONE putting and keeping roofs of their familys heads...

IOW - you're a rat picking up crumbs.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

> So we started watching the picketers, and sure enough..... every so often one would slowly circle the building and, thinking no one could see, saunter through the parking lot spreading the nails.





LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> So, you were crossing a picket.
> And you're complaining that the picketers were sending a negative message?


A "_negative message_"???? How politely understated.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, because YOU worry about putting a roof over YOUR head, and not at all concerned with EVERYONE putting and keeping roofs of their familys heads...


I'd say that's certainly true in my situation. When we start to use words like 'everyone' it begins to smack of socialism. I have no special obligations to everyone, other than to treat them civilly and within the bounds of the law, but I do have an unusual obligation to myself and my family. I think we've heard many examples lately where too many guys put the brotherhood first, to the detriment of their own household.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

EDITED: 


LGLS keep doing what you do and you and your type will be the death of unions maybe not in your home turf but in other parts of the country


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ........
> 
> IOW - you're a rat picking up crumbs.


 
Thank you very much for pointing out the painfully obvious..........the fact that the union has an IMAGE PROBLEM. And members with an attitude like that will forever hold the Unions from making a come-back.

NAME-CALLING and USING DEROGETORRY TERMS ARE NEVER GOING TO HELP YOUR CAUSE, NO MATTER HOW NOBLE IT IS!

If I didn't care about OTHERS in the trade in helping them improve their lives....WOULD I BE HERE ON THESE FORUMS???????????????



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ...........So, you were crossing a picket.
> And you're complaining that the picketers were sending a negative message?
> 
> 
> ...


Cleanup had nothing to do with it. Can't you get it through your head that intentionally causing damage to personal property CANNOT HELP YOU?

And another thing you can't seem to understand: Why would my 'employer refuse to bargain" when he wasn't Union? Or did you miss that?

Also, please do not put words in my mouth. IT DOES NOTHING TO HELP YOU.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> PLEASE don't tell me you are actually justifying the assholes in those videos and their actions.
> I didn't watch them all either, but I have seen my share of them. I have also seen my share of this type of thing.
> Regardless of the source what's on those videos happened. They were not scripted or staged.
> 
> ...


You truly are ignorant Petey. You are NOT "fighting" just as hard for your livlihood, because you stand alone. You're just working for the best you can get. Alone, one by one, your cause is lost, and hopeless. You as an individual cannot do anything to better your lot. It is only when you stand side by side with everyone else that anything can be gained. 



> The jerks in those videos are looking out for their situation, NOT their livelihoods!


Their situation, their coworkers and their familys and every other worker, union or not.



> That prick in the first video would have been told where to go if he got in my face and spoke to me like that.


That would be between you and him.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Go figure this crap came from your mouth. Yeah the bosss gives you direction and because you do not feel one man moving 10' of 1/2" EMT is a workable task you strike.:laughing:


Yea sure Brian, that's exactly what we all think... :whistling2:


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> PLEASE don't tell me you are actually justifying the assholes in those videos and their actions.
> I didn't watch them all either, but I have seen my share of them. I have also seen my share of this type of thing.
> Regardless of the source what's on those videos happened. They were not scripted or staged.
> 
> ...


I'm an apprentice, so I haven't been around the trade for too terribly long, but I joined the union because I agree with the basic tenets of its existence. I believe that if corporate entities are allowed to lobby Congress and other lawmaking bodies, then labor should have their fair opportunity as well. Of course, compromise is never easy.

That being said, I eschew and abhor any and all violent or bullying actions undertaken by any and all union members. I, personally, am a decent, reasonable, contributing member of society. I pick up trash off the beach, I volunteer at my step-son's school, I vote and write letters to the editor, and if I have a complaint about something, I follow the proper channels and remain civil. Every single one of my coworkers is the same way. I treat my superiors with respect, as well as our customers, whether it's a big job or a one-hour service call.

I see no need to bitch and gripe in an agitative manner when there are established methods by which one can bitch and gripe reasonably. I agree with the assessment that setting up inflatable rats on job sites and getting on the case of non-union hands is primitive intimidation. I agree with the assessment that the union has an image problem. I think it will continue to do so until a serious, major internal renovation is implemented which *actively* discourages members from acting like cavemen with big-**** syndrome. The IBEW also needs to band together with other unions and offer the public a refresher course on what it is that unions are actually good for.

There is no reason why my union, which I am proud to be a member of, needs to resort to mean-spirited tactics. Modern society requires it to be more subtle, and if this does not happen then the union will ultimately fail. The IBEW mission as stated in the OP will never ever come to pass if the current attitudes continue to prevail.

On the bright side, I believe that there are many IBEW members out there with personalities similar to mine - ones that are conscientious, courteous, and civil, even to non-union members. I realize that it is part of our goal to organize non-union electricians, but doing this in the form of intimidation, or arguing, or offering unsolicited comments will only strengthen their conviction that union members are assholes.

Well, I'm not an asshole, and I believe that most of my union brothers are not assholes either. I also believe that most non-union hands are not assholes either, and given the proper, non-intimidating forum, would be open to discussing union issues or possibly even joining up if the IBEW committed itself to revising its image, putting its foot down on bullying tactics, and showing to the public that a union can be a perfectly decent societal entity.


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## Mike_586 (Mar 24, 2009)

brian john said:


> LGLS you are SOOOO WRONG on this, I worked open shop 39 years ago and the BS we put up with from the other union trades and union electricians gave me a life long bad taste for the name calling, the sabotage, the endless crap.
> 
> The open shop electricians I try to organize almost 100% that have had exposure to unions tell me negative stories, salting, picketing, name calling and of course certain lies from their employers.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:



LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> No, because YOU worry about putting a roof over YOUR head, and not at all concerned with EVERYONE putting and keeping roofs of their familys heads...
> 
> IOW - you're a rat picking up crumbs.


Man you're such an idiot...

There was a time when the IBEW controlled 90% of the market to being a bit player. The reason were a bit player now days is because of you and people like you. I've yet to see a single thing come out of you that's done anything but hurt our cause. *You are nothing but a detriment to the health of the Brotherhood.*


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Why does the forum bleep out di.ck but not asshole? :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> ............That would be between you and him.


 
Again... IMAGE PROBLEM. There's a brother out there NOT HELPING THE UNION CAUSE, and you stand by and do nothing.

Geez, does *that* sound familiar or what?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

So the end justify's the means? No matter what?

I could be wrong and I am not taking a poll, but I do not hear anyone else defending these tactics, is it that you are in the minority? Because MAYBE other members feel that promoting the union in a more positive way would actually help their cause.

These tactics may help with short term goals and did work in the past (pre 1960), but I feel as I have stated they do more harm that good.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Why does the forum bleep out di.ck but not asshole? :laughing:


Asshole is a compound word, and probably not in for forums' software library. But there's ways around using the work díck.:whistling2:


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

brian john said:


> EDITED:
> 
> 
> LGLS keep doing what you do and you and your type will be the death of unions maybe not in your home turf but in other parts of the country


Brian,
Not picking up 10 feet of 1/2" Emt Is somewhat severe.
I do not remember how many bundles of 1/2 " Ridgid I have carried in my many years.

Take Care


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Again... IMAGE PROBLEM. There's a brother out there NOT HELPING THE UNION CAUSE, and you stand by and do nothing.
> 
> Geez, does *that* sound familiar or what?


Hey 480 GFY. What am I supposed to do? I'm not the one in the video - I don't have to make excuses for HIM. 

Blow it out your asshole, asshole.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> So the end justify's the means? No matter what?
> 
> I could be wrong and I am not taking a poll, but I do not hear anyone else defending these tactics, is it that you are in the minority? Because MAYBE other members feel that promoting the union in a more positive way would actually help their cause.
> 
> These tactics may help with short term goals and did work in the past (pre 1960), but I feel as I have stated they do more harm that good.


Was I defending? NO. Explaining... maybe.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Hey 480 GFY.........Blow it out your asshole, asshole.


Now there's a real, well-mannered, intelligent, adult response. I had you figured for a 'Whatever!' kind of guy.

Raise your hand, anyone, if you didn't see it coming.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

brian john said:


> Because MAYBE other members feel that promoting the union in a more positive way would actually help their cause.


*raises hand* Exactly.

IBEW Local 48 (Portland, OR) has been doing an ad campaign in recent months focusing on green energy and the Local's commitment to training and education of its members in installing "green" systems. That's casting the IBEW in a positive light, but it still does not address the concern of most Americans that unions are fundamentally mean.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Brian,
> Not picking up 10 feet of 1/2" Emt Is somewhat severe.
> I do not remember how many bundles of 1/2 " Ridgid I have carried in my many years.
> 
> Take Care


Like everything else, the anti-union stories told and retold over and over by the antis get better and better...


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Hey 480 GFY. What am I supposed to do? I'm not the one in the video - I don't have to make excuses for HIM.
> 
> Blow it out your asshole, asshole.


 
Would someone give me a way to see this video.
Thanks


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Would someone give me a way to see this video.
> Thanks


Click on the Play (triangular) button. Post #32, I think.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Like everything else, the anti-union stories told and retold over and over by the antis get better and better...


 
I agree and as are open shops stories, they make 1/2 as much, not good at their profession, yada, yada, yada. There is an element of truth and a whole lot of misunderstanding in both camps.

That comment in the midst of a heated disagreement was said TONGUE IN CHEEK.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You truly are ignorant Petey. You are NOT "fighting" just as hard for your livlihood, because you stand alone. You're just working for the best you can get. Alone, one by one, your cause is lost, and hopeless. You as an individual cannot do anything to better your lot. It is only when you stand side by side with everyone else that anything can be gained.


This is 100% your OPINION. Just like what I said was my opinion. Nothing more. 

And, since the last few posts have gotten typically nasty and insulting, this folks brings a close to yet another f'ed up union argument thread . 
Did anyone change their mind? ........<crickets chirping>
Yeah, I though as much. 

I apologize for getting as involved as I did. I hate that I can't stand by and read this crap without commenting.


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