# Electric Vehicles - Article 625.42



## frenchelectrican

847Videos said:


> I recently had a professional sparing difference of opinion over
> 
> Article 625.42 (Electric Vehicles Charging Equipment Disconnects over 60amps Tesla Charging equipment basically)
> 
> "The disconnecting means shall be capable of being locked in the open position"
> 
> *My Argument:
> *Similar to an AC Condenser, you purchase an enclosure that has a lockable cover that when locked, the disconnect is in the open position.
> 
> *Challenger:
> *You can use the circuit breaker in the load center, because the toggle on the breaker can be locked in the open position through a lockout Tag out.
> 
> Lmao :laughing:
> He made a valid point, and one inspector sided with him... Mean while other inspectors where like NO, not in my township....
> What do you all make of it?


Both part what you are saying that do meet the LOTO requirement but myself I rather add a local disconnect switch right before the charger port in case need to do the mantaince work etc.,,

Just go back some of our posting about Tesla chargers and alot of them do raise few good points on the situation and expect to see alot more not too far in future .,, :blink:


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## 847Videos

frenchelectrican said:


> Both part what you are saying that do meet the LOTO requirement but myself I rather add a local disconnect switch right before the charger port in case need to do the mantaince work etc.,,
> 
> Just go back some of our posting about Tesla chargers and alot of them do raise few good points on the situation and expect to see alot more not too far in future .,, :blink:



Good point, I added some more comment on the thread...

Lockout Tag out is an OSHA Control Measurement designed to protect the "electrical worker" when the professional leaves, the locking device goes with, what are the odds an owner/Customer has a lockout tag out. Therefore the disconnect would be required. (My Opinion)


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## HackWork

Why not use a circuit breaker lock? Similar to LOTO but approved for this purpose.


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## frenchelectrican

HackWork said:


> Why not use a circuit breaker lock? Similar to LOTO but approved for this purpose.


That is one of very good option and it is cheap and it will work in both location ( main panel and disconnection breaker location ) I would use this without a question.


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## 847Videos

*I like the idea*

I like the idea, but have you guys pulled permits on these installations?
Wonder how the inspectors in your areas react or what they allow....

Technically you can "LOCK" a breaker.... So that would work.
But 2017 NEC added some lines that say you it has to be left on there....?

So would this mean we can get rid of disconnects because all breakers can be locked out???? See where I'm coming from...? I'm down for anything :brows:


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## HackWork

847Videos said:


> I like the idea, but have you guys pulled permits on these installations?
> Wonder how the inspectors in your areas react or what they allow....
> 
> Technically you can "LOCK" a breaker.... So that would work.
> But 2017 NEC added some lines that say you it has to be left on there....?
> 
> So would this mean we can get rid of disconnects because all breakers can be locked out???? See where I'm coming from...? I'm down for anything :brows:


You need to install a permanently installed breaker lock on that breaker. Once that is there, it will serve as a lockable disconnect in many instances, including the car charger.

You will notice that the car charger code says the disco has to be "readily accessible", which a breaker with a lock is. If the code requires it to be within sight of the equipment, then a breaker lock won't work unless the panel is within sight of the equipment.


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## frenchelectrican

847Videos said:


> I like the idea, but have you guys pulled permits on these installations?
> Wonder how the inspectors in your areas react or what they allow....


I have pulled the permits for electric charging station however I havent touch the Tesla system yet but I am expecting to get it soon not too far in future in Philippines. 



847Videos said:


> Technically you can "LOCK" a breaker.... So that would work.
> But 2017 NEC added some lines that say you it has to be left on there....?
> 
> So would this mean we can get rid of disconnects because all breakers can be locked out???? See where I'm coming from...? I'm down for anything :brows:


Just keep in your mind not all of us are on 2017 code cycle yet so the answer will varies a little.

Yes we can put a provision for a lock out tab for the breaker however you have to keep in your mind there is some state/local codes may still required a disconnect switch next to the charger station.

that part is true especailly once you go over 60 amp input and or 240 volts or above so keep in your mind. ( my location do required a mantory disconnect switch before charger station reguardless of voltage at all. ( 240;400;480 volts.) ) 

The other thing some charger station may required fused disconnect switch so just be aware of that.


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## mvigneux

In Canada the cct breaker would have to be within 27 feet and in sight of the charger, otherwise a safety switch would be in order 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## frenchelectrican

mvigneux said:


> In Canada the cct breaker would have to be within 27 feet and in sight of the charger, otherwise a safety switch would be in order
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just wondering do you know the CEC art number for this ? 

thanks.


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## HackWork

110.25 says the locking provision has to remain there in the 2014 code as well.



> 625.42 Disconnecting Means. For electric vehicle supply equipment rated more than 60 amperes or more than 150 volts to ground, the disconnecting means shall be provided and in- stalled in a *readily accessible location*. The disconnecting means shall be lockable open *in accordance with 110.25*.





> 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means. Where a discon- necting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed.
> 
> Exception: Cord-and-plug connection locking provisions shall not be required to remain in place without the lock installed.


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## mvigneux

frenchelectrican said:


> Just wondering do you know the CEC art number for this ?
> 
> 
> 
> thanks.




I apologize I have had a couple beers this evening and the 27' is from the motor disconnect rule and does not apply here.

But per the CEC 86-304 it does need to be in sight and lockable. Which a cct breaker with lock mechanism attached will certainly satisfy.


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## macmikeman

As a reminder, this is Tesla charger aftermath.............


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## Majewski

macmikeman said:


> As a reminder, this is Tesla charger aftermath.............


What's the story here?


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## macmikeman

Majewski said:


> What's the story here?


I posted this a while back. Not my install, just something I had to repair for somebody. Cooked most of a whole panel of breakers and busbar. This is not the only time I have run across similar shortly right after Tesla chargers were installed.


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## frenchelectrican

Majewski said:


> What's the story here?


Maj.,,

Both Mac and Tesla have dealt with those dammed tesla chargers and it been discussed sometime back.

I do not know how many did Mac hit on that and for Tesla I think he got few as well so I do not know who else got it with tesla charging system.

But yes I did got hit with other type of charging system I have couple breakers basically cooked hard.,, on both 240 and 415 volt verison. I havent see the 480 volt breaker fail yet but I heard one of my EC freind in northen Philippines say he got one on 480 volt super charger smoked a breaker so I dont know all the details but right on par with Americian verison as well.

I just hope someone get wise up with the issue with charger stations.


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## 847Videos

*Loose connections*



macmikeman said:


> As a reminder, this is Tesla charger aftermath.............


That all looks like loose connections,
Tesla Wall Connector charging stations evse tops out at 80 amps with a dual charger car 🚗 
Therefore those breakers have to be sized 125% of the continuous load of 80 amps which equals 100amp breaker with #3 thhn wire....

Sooooo I would say something with the design of the feeder ckt or wire not torqued to the breakers manufacturer specs, or crappy federal pacific breakers or load calc wasn't done and some douche is trying to run a 100 amp service, 80amps of charging and run a house and the buss bars are flaking out... 

Tesla Wall connectors are just devices pulling current, like anything else... ac unit, stove etc


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## chicken steve

> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to install a permanently installed breaker lock on that breaker. Once that is there, it will serve as a lockable disconnect in many instances, including the car charger.
> 
> You will notice that the car charger code says the disco has to be "readily accessible", which a breaker with a lock is. If the code requires it to be within sight of the equipment, then a breaker lock won't work unless the panel is within sight of the equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbsup:
> >>>
> 
> *110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means*. Where a discon-
> necting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in
> this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open
> position. The provisions for locking shall remain in place
> with or without the lock installed.
> 
> _Exception: Cord-and-plug connection locking provisions
> shall not be required to remain in place without the lock
> installed. _
> 
> ~CS~
Click to expand...


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## HackWork

847Videos said:


> Tesla Wall connectors are just devices pulling current, like anything else... ac unit, stove etc


There is a big difference...

AC units, stoves, heaters, pretty much every other large load in a house cycles on and off. A vehicle charger draws constant power for 6-9 solid hours. 

It's an entirely different beast that we have never had in houses before, and it will find faults with the electrical systems that you wouldn't have seen before.


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## 847Videos

HackWork said:


> There is a big difference...
> 
> AC units, stoves, heaters, pretty much every other large load in a house cycles on and off. A vehicle charger draws constant power for 6-9 solid hours.
> 
> It's an entirely different beast that we have never had in houses before, and it will find faults with the electrical systems that you wouldn't have seen before.


I disagree a properly installed Service, Feeder or Branch Circuit that meet NEC standards should not be causing issues. Outside of residential, say in commercial, or industrial you may find more continuous loads operating longer than 3 hours never have issues when they are installed correctly. All these breakers, load centers, wire etc. All have UL ratings on them where they test, burn smash and fry things to see there limits and each breaker has their stamp saying that "product" is save for the public, so they toss it in our hands the installers... lol

I've installed hundreds of EV charging stations and no issues yet with our feeder ckts.


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## frenchelectrican

847Videos said:


> That all looks like loose connections,
> Tesla Wall Connector charging stations evse tops out at 80 amps with a dual charger car 🚗
> Therefore those breakers have to be sized 125% of the continuous load of 80 amps which equals 100amp breaker with #3 thhn wire....
> 
> Sooooo I would say something with the design of the feeder ckt or wire not torqued to the breakers manufacturer specs, or crappy federal pacific breakers or load calc wasn't done and some douche is trying to run a 100 amp service, 80amps of charging and run a house and the buss bars are flaking out...
> 
> Tesla Wall connectors are just devices pulling current, like anything else... ac unit, stove etc


I have hear Tesla wall chargers can do wreck hovac on the system and yes I did heard some owners found a way to get around and crank those unit up a bit more. 

Like a example a common single Tesla charger if you set for 50 amps ( yes there is a dip switch to change the charger setting ) and later the homeowner find a way to increase to max of 80 amp now that is the issue with the system due some homeowners can not wait at least 8 hours at normal charging rate to get their car battery fully charged up.

And ya expecting those Tesla charger do run nice sine wave ?? in fact the answer is no., more like Pulse width moduation basically just like SCR 

I have a Nissan electric car charger over here in my area and it was very hard on system if you are not prepared for it so the result I did was change that from 240 volt input to 415 volt input and seems it help a bit. 

as our Tesla member posted the photo and I know there are few other members say the same thing about burnted breakers on conventail snap on breakers but I havent heard anything yet with bolt on breakers if they fail too or not.,, so that part some of us are waiting for that. 

alot of commercal location useally have bolt on breaker so that useally take care of it in most case plus the EV charger useally are larger in few spots.

and yes there is few super EV charger around the USA and one of our member here did discussed about super EV charger not too long ago and the size of that unit is pretty big and it can charge up the battery quick as 15 minuite or so ( basically almost same time ya put fuel in conventail cars )


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## HackWork

847Videos said:


> I disagree


 You disagree with what? That car chargers that pull a solid 80A for 8 hours straight aren't burning up busses that never had a problem before?

Did you find this fact thru your crystal ball?



> Outside of residential, say in commercial, or industrial you may find more continuous loads operating longer than 3 hours never have issues when they are installed correctly.


 And they are usually bolt on breakers.


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## lighterup

frenchelectrican said:


> I have hear Tesla wall chargers can do wreck hovac on the system and yes I did heard some owners found a way to get around and crank those unit up a bit more.
> 
> Like a example a common single Tesla charger if you set for 50 amps ( yes there is a dip switch to change the charger setting ) and later the homeowner find a way to increase to max of 80 amp now that is the issue with the system due some homeowners can not wait at least 8 hours at normal charging rate to get their car battery fully charged up.
> 
> And ya expecting those Tesla charger do run nice sine wave ?? in fact the answer is no., more like Pulse width moduation basically just like SCR
> 
> I have a Nissan electric car charger over here in my area and it was very hard on system if you are not prepared for it so the result I did was change that from 240 volt input to 415 volt input and seems it help a bit.
> 
> as our Tesla member posted the photo and I know there are few other members say the same thing about burnted breakers on conventail snap on breakers but I havent heard anything yet with bolt on breakers if they fail too or not.,, so that part some of us are waiting for that.
> 
> alot of commercal location useally have bolt on breaker so that useally take care of it in most case plus the EV charger useally are larger in few spots.
> 
> and yes there is few super EV charger around the USA and one of our member here did discussed about super EV charger not too long ago and the size of that unit is pretty big and it can charge up the battery quick as 15 minuite or so ( basically almost same time ya put fuel in conventail cars )


I would just assume Ho's are going to figure out how to crank up 
to 80 amps and probably keep it there. 

This mentality is one reason why I wire residential homes , feeders and
circuits not to exceed 80 % of the wiring , products ratings. I just assume
HO's are going to push the envelope on everything.


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