# How could I have done this better?



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Today I went to a shop that had their exterior wiring running for years and years without fixing anything. To make matters worse, every outside fixture had photocells!!!

Anyway, it was a long painful day today. The last fixture of the day was a 400w Metal halide. And I want to know how I could have done it better.

I go up there in the bucket truck. I disconnect the ballast and test the photocell. Doesn't come on. I change out the photocell. Retest. The new photocell works, but the new bulb doesn't come on. I replace the ballast/cap. Bulb doesn't come on. I redo the connections. Nothing. I fiddle with the mogul base. Doesn't come on. I go down, get a new mogul base, wire it up temporarily, doesn't come on. Check the voltage. Solid 124v. I checked for continuity between the neutral and the ground. There is continuity. Fixture is currently not running.

I'm thinking that the brand new ballast is defective.

Where do you think I could have done better? TY!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Test for open voltage in lampholder.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

This would be the hot to the mogul base? Or the hot coming from the transformer before it reaches the cap? And TY, I'm going to print this off and save it. Or is it both the same.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Today I went to a shop that had their exterior wiring running for years and years without fixing anything. To make matters worse, every outside fixture had photocells!!!
> 
> Anyway, it was a long painful day today. The last fixture of the day was a 400w Metal halide. And I want to know how I could have done it better.
> 
> ...


Remember with metal halide lamps it can take as long as one minute for the arc to strike then 5 minutes to warm up


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

oldtimer said:


> I do not believe this!! Just call an electrician!!!


We had a journeyman quit because he couldn't get anything done in 3 days, so they called me in. He put metal halide bulbs in 2 fixtures that had high pressure sodium and those transformers seemed to blow up a bit, because there's now that brown resin everywhere inside.

Poor guy, because it's simple work. I just wanted to know say, how I can improve and 480 did it all. Going to test his info on the field tomorrow.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kaboler said:


> This would be the hot to the mogul base? Or the hot coming from the transformer before it reaches the cap? And TY, I'm going to print this off and save it. Or is it both the same.


Voltage between the base & screw shell. :thumbsup:

Click here for the full HID troubleshooting guide.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

kaboler said:


> We had a journeyman quit because he couldn't get anything done in 3 days, so they called me in. He put metal halide bulbs in 2 fixtures that had high pressure sodium and those transformers seemed to blow up a bit, because there's now that brown resin everywhere inside.
> 
> Poor guy, because it's simple work. I just wanted to know say, how I can improve and 480 did it all. Going to test his info on the field tomorrow.


Necessity is a bitch.


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey a simple way to tell if the ballast is operating is to listen or feel if it is humming 90% of the time if it is humming it's a burn out lamp . Not saying this works all the time but generally that is what I notice


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Kab.,

Just give you a serious head up with pulse start metal halides Jamais { Never } stick your voltmeter in there when the ingitor is still functing so if you going to test them make sure you disconnect the ingitor unit it the same freaking rules with High Pressure soduim.

The reason why due the ingitor pulse is pretty high voltage it can wreck your test meter if not heeded on this warning { the ingitor voltage will be anywhere from 2000 to 4500 volts depending on the type of ingitors } 

Merci,
Marc


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

Maybe your going about it wrong. As an industrial electrician I worked on many outside lights with photocells & the first thing I did was to put some tape or a glove on the photocell & see what happens. You can hear the ballast kick in as someone stated. If it doesn't light change the lamp, making sure you have the correct wattage. 
THEN, if it doesn't light, you troubleshoot-starting at the Photocell - Lamp- Starter -Ballast-lamp base.................


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Test for open voltage in lampholder.


Thank you for the chart 480.
Your the man.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

FYI, if you have a SH that carries advance stuff or run into a rep you can probably get that troubleshooting guide in book form out of them.


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## Jefro (Jul 28, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Thank you for the chart 480.
> Your the man.


Yeah, double that. That's pretty useful.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

kaboler said:


> Check the voltage. Solid 124v.


 
I'll guess you measured this, with no load?

Put a load on it, and then measure it. I'll Bet the voltage goes away.


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

I like to use duct seal on the photo eyes covers them up quick and easy


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I would have just swapped all the guts out after verifying that the photocell worked first. Including the lamp. 
I am going with the bad splice somewhere theory too. Put a load and retest voltage.

As far as the burnt varnish all over the inside of the lens, fixture, those citrus hand wipes work pretty good. Or oven cleaner.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

When I was an apprentice I got sent out by myself to fix a MH fixture, was told it wasn't working. There was a switch right under it, relamped it turned it on and nothing. So I changed the ballast out, still nothing. After all that I checked for voltage and found there was none, turns out the breaker was turned off. When I got back to the shop I told them it was a bad ballast :-\ God I felt dumb after that one.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> I'll guess you measured this, with no load?
> 
> Put a load on it, and then measure it. I'll Bet the voltage goes away.


If it does, that means that a conductor's splice is almost totally separated? Or what hahahaha.

I'm going out to the job tomorrow I think. I got called away to do a job at Schlumberger, where they pelted me with sandwiches, pop, and butter tarts. Ah, a good day!!!


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

Pelted? Are you British? I have only heard those who are from British territories use that one.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

JohnR said:


> Pelted? Are you British? I have only heard those who are from British territories use that one.


We're both former british colonies hehehe.


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Hippie said:


> When I was an apprentice I got sent out by myself to fix a MH fixture, was told it wasn't working. There was a switch right under it, relamped it turned it on and nothing. So I changed the ballast out, still nothing. After all that I checked for voltage and found there was none, turns out the breaker was turned off. When I got back to the shop I told them it was a bad ballast :-\ God I felt dumb after that one.


 Happens to everyone sooner or later. You are lucky nobody found out. I always feel bad for the guy this happends to when an entire group is watching.:laughing:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

lefleuron said:


> Happens to everyone sooner or later. You are lucky nobody found out. I always feel bad for the guy this happends to when an entire group is watching.:laughing:


Did you break it? YES

Did anyone see you break it? NO

Can you fix/hide it? YES

NO PROBLEM, you did nothing wrong.


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

There are these tester that supposedly tell you exactly if the ballast/ignitor/cap are O.K. I have never used them myself. Anyone???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

brian john said:


> Did you break it? YES
> 
> Did anyone see you break it? NO
> 
> ...









​


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

Hey that tester is fricken cool I wonder if it works!


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

JPRO2 said:


> Hey that tester is fricken cool I wonder if it works!


 The plant I worked at several years ago had one. It was sold by Holophane lighting and it worked well.


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I did the light today. I went up there using 480's chart and the voltage was fine. Yep, turns out, defective new light bulb!!!!


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I did the light today. I went up there using 480's chart and the voltage was fine. Yep, turns out, defective new light bulb!!!!


Are you serious?

I feel sorry for the Canadians on this site.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dnkldorf said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> I feel sorry for the Canadians on this site.



So do I !!!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dnkldorf said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> I feel sorry for the Canadians on this site.


We need an American version of Kabloer on this site. It would round out the North American trio of Kaboler, Josue, and.....................????


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Dnkldorf said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> I feel sorry for the Canadians on this site.


 
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hopefully he learned a valuable lesson and in the future will be a bit wiser.

Isolate and conquer.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Peter D said:


> We need an American version of Kabloer on this site. It would round out the North American trio of Kaboler, Josue, and.....................????


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

brian john said:


> Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hopefully he learned a valuable lesson and in the future will be a bit wiser.
> 
> Isolate and conquer.


You got it! I figured that if anything were to fail, it'd be the ballast/cap, not the visually-flawless light bulb.

I guess it's the same with cars, check the easiest thing first. I've never seen a defective bulb before, and I guess I just didn't think about it. The old one I took out didn't work either, so I learned from my inefficiencies.

TY!!! I like that "isolate and conquer". True!

As for the rest of you, you offer nothing.


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## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)

Peter D said:


> We need an American version of Kabloer on this site. It would round out the North American trio of Kaboler, Josue, and.....................????


Why not create a post nominating one?  :whistling2:



kaboler said:


> You got it! I figured that if anything were to fail, it'd be the ballast/cap, not the visually-flawless light bulb.
> 
> I guess it's the same with cars, check the easiest thing first. I've never seen a defective bulb before, and I guess I just didn't think about it. The old one I took out didn't work either, so I learned from my inefficiencies.


My cousin used to climb TV towers an replace the bulbs. He said for every bulb he had to replace he always took three up with him. One to replace it with. One to replace that one with, and one to drop!


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

LARMGUY said:


> My cousin used to climb TV towers an replace the bulbs. He said for every bulb he had to replace he always took three up with him. One to replace it with. One to replace that one with, and one to drop!


:laughing::laughing:


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

retiredsparktech said:


> The plant I worked at several years ago had one. It was sold by Holophane lighting and it worked well.


Thanks I am going to look about finding one does it come in a couple different bases like mogul or medium?


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

JPRO2 said:


> Thanks I am going to look about finding one does it come in a couple different bases like mogul or medium?


They only came in in Mogul base nothing in med base unless you buy a Mogul to Med base adpatour.

Merci.
Marc


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## Aegis (Mar 18, 2011)

I've done something similar years ago on T&M. Check photocell, photocell works. Check bulb by putting new bulb in. Still doesn't come on. So I think it's the ballast. Meanwhile the new bulb is defective or was just ruined lol. Change out ballast + Cap and the new bulb still doesn't work. Socket is fine. Put old bulb back in and it works! WTF!!!!!! Leave photocell covered to test how long light stays on. Come down extension ladder, start packing up only to see the light go off. Replace entire light


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Aegis said:


> I've done something similar years ago on T&M. Check photocell, photocell works. Check bulb by putting new bulb in. Still doesn't come on. So I think it's the ballast. Meanwhile the new bulb is defective or was just ruined lol. Change out ballast + Cap and the new bulb still doesn't work. Socket is fine. Put old bulb back in and it works! WTF!!!!!! Leave photocell covered to test how long light stays on. Come down extension ladder, start packing up only to see the light go off. Replace entire light


You and me both brother!!!!


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Jmohl said:


> View attachment 8347
> There are these tester that supposedly tell you exactly if the ballast/ignitor/cap are O.K. I have never used them myself. Anyone???


Mitchell instrument company sells both medium and mogul base on their website.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

JPRO2 said:


> I like to use duct seal on the photo eyes covers them up quick and easy


 
Tin foil :thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

220/221 said:


> Tin foil :thumbup:


With big ears...:laughing:


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## CanadianSparky (May 10, 2011)

I received a call similar to this years ago. Call was to repair cobra head that was not functioning. So I changed the lamp and taped up the photocell to find it still didn't work. So i tested for power and found 120v both with the photocell connected into the circuit then i disconnected it and wiring straight into the ballast and still nothing. So I replaced the ballast and still nothing. Found the socket to be a little "weathered" so I replaced that too and still nothing. Basically everything in the fixture was new now even the photocell and I was beyond frustrated. In my last resort before I decided to light the thing on fire I found a pigtail in the truck and an incandescent lamp and temp installed it to find that it didn't turn on. The moral of the story is it was the neutral connection on the tri-plex at the utility pole before the light. Repaired the joint and everything worked the way it was intended (which is should have since everything was new except that housing). Yes I wasted a lot of time and unneeded material but I learned something useful....Testers can sometimes be deceiving haha


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Peter D said:


> We need an American version of Kabloer on this site. It would round out the North American trio of Kaboler, Josue, and.....................????


 
I will be it for just one post Pete.

Started off in a textile plant one day in NC to work with one of the engineers. I thought afterwards I was getting "punked":jester:, but it was legit.

There was a call for something wrong with one eight foot fixture at the end of one of the machines. Maintenance couldn't figure it out. EE gets sent off on a different road and asks me to assist.

I get over there, go through the whole schpeel with maintenance, do my own testing and ask, go get me two new bulbs please.......nadda. Oooookay, go get me two new bulbs please.................nadda. I'm not looking good. Two more bulbs please...............nadda. Now I look really small.

Where's your stock? Go with them and try a new case. Bingo. Bad batch of tubes. It wasn't a planned joke, it just so happened......


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## JPRO2 (Dec 17, 2008)

220/221 said:


> Tin foil :thumbup:


Hey that's a wicked idea thanks I think I mightnjust borrow that one!


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Voltage between the base & screw shell. :thumbsup:
> 
> Click here for the full HID troubleshooting guide.


Nice guide, thanks


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## Steinsbu52 (Aug 4, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Test for open voltage in lampholder.


Nice guide. Thanks


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## Spannerz (Aug 13, 2011)

Move the photocell down to where the light is fed from. Thats the first mistake.


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