# #12 for lighting



## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

years ago, when I first started, there was talk about dropping #14, and using #12 for lighting. Then the price of copper went through the roof, and I never heard much about that again.

Anyone else ever hear that ?


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

I use #12 for lighting all the time.


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## JmanAllen (Aug 3, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> years ago, when I first started, there was talk about dropping #14, and using #12 for lighting. Then the price of copper went through the roof, and I never heard much about that again.
> 
> Anyone else ever hear that ?


In most towns here in Okla you can't use 14 Inless fixture whip

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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

In commerical work, we do indeed use #12 for lighting, but residential is always #14.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> In commerical work, we do indeed use #12 for lighting, but residential is always #14.


Because everybody knows that commercial electricity is much more heavy duty than residential electricity. :thumbsup:

For me, 14 anywhere I legally can.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Serious news flash for commercial guys and those who live in selected northern cities - #14 works fine for lighting...


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> years ago, when I first started, there was talk about dropping #14, and using #12 for lighting. Then the price of copper went through the roof, and I never heard much about that again.
> 
> Anyone else ever hear that ?


I don't believe there was ever talk of that on the national level .


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I don't believe there was ever talk of that on the national level .


I never heard anything like that either. Sounds absurd to me.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

Maybe the copper industry talked about it?:laughing:


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

*lights*

I most often put lights on 14 (unless I run out of 14 in truck). 

Here is next important question. How much you all load that circuit up with ???


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I most often put lights on 14 (unless I run out of 14 in truck).
> 
> Here is next important question. How much you all load that circuit up with ???


when i'm roughing in a resi house, i figure 1 amp a light and 2 amp a ceiling fan and put 12 amp on a circuit. I usually averages out esp when some can lights going in.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Some local towns prohibit #14 for commerical.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> Serious news flash for commercial guys and those who live in selected northern cities - #14 works fine for lighting...


Thank god...:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


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## semper_fi_electric (Dec 12, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I most often put lights on 14 (unless I run out of 14 in truck).
> 
> Here is next important question. How much you all load that circuit up with ???


The code lets us use 80% of the circuit. Why would you not want to use that to the max. Saves money! :thumbup: .


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## semper_fi_electric (Dec 12, 2011)

mbednarik said:


> when i'm roughing in a resi house, i figure 1 amp a light and 2 amp a ceiling fan and put 12 amp on a circuit. I usually averages out esp when some can lights going in.


Why do you wanna do that. Its not the smartest thing in the world. If you go and look on the fixtures they will tell you how many amps or watts each fixture is. Remember that thing we all hate, ohms law? Watts / Voltage = Amp.:no::whistling2:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

noarcflash said:


> Some local towns prohibit #14 for commerical.


Ignorant Tards! :laughing:


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

Most commercial jobs it doesn't make sense to use 14 wire fellas. You need 20 amp breakers and 12 wire. Otherwise your gonna end up with way too many panels...then electric rooms ect ect.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

semper_fi_electric said:


> The code lets us use 80% of the circuit. Why would you not want to use that to the max. Saves money! :thumbup: .


The code says no such thing. I can most certainly put 20 amps of lighting on a 20 amp circuit.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

semper_fi_electric said:


> The code lets us use 80% of the circuit.


In many applications, yes, but not all.
There is no 80% limit across the board.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

the code allows 180watts per lighting unit in a residence

the advantage of !2 is more lights than 14

the advantage of 14 is simply box fill 

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> the code allows 180watts per lighting unit in a residence.............



Reference, please.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> the code allows 180watts per lighting unit in a residence
> 
> the advantage of !2 is more lights than 14
> 
> ...


 
The 180 watts is for load calcs on receptacles. Lighting gets counted per the manufacturers specs per fixture


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The 180 watts is for load calcs on receptacles. Lighting gets counted per the manufacturers specs per fixture


 
_'dwellings'_ Mcclary....~CS~


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> _'dwellings'_ Mcclary....~CS~


 
Yeah, and?


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

semper_fi_electric said:


> Why do you wanna do that. Its not the smartest thing in the world. If you go and look on the fixtures they will tell you how many amps or watts each fixture is. Remember that thing we all hate, ohms law? Watts / Voltage = Amp.:no::whistling2:


I have no idea what fixture is getting installed until i put it up. makes ohm law kinda hard without knowing wattage.


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

When I wired my house I used 12 for everything. Lighting separate from recpets on circuits. Each bedroom of recepts on separate circuit. Dining room separate recept circuit. Kitchen 4 circuits. Front outside recept separate circuit, back outside recect separate circuit. The inspector said I over did it and could of used 15 duplex recepts and did not have to use all 20 amp commercial grade duplex outlets. I said it was my house he just laughed


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Reference, please.


how's 220.14(J)
~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

ptcrtn said:


> When I wired my house I used 12 for everything. Lighting separate from recpets on circuits. Each bedroom of recepts on separate circuit. Dining room separate recept circuit. Kitchen 4 circuits. Front outside recept separate circuit, back outside recect separate circuit. The inspector said I over did it and could of used 15 duplex recepts and did not have to use all 20 amp commercial grade duplex outlets. I said it was my house he just laughed


 
I wish everybody i bid against had your mentallity. I would get every house I bid.
Why did you have to use 20 ampere recepts? You still could have used 15 if you wanted.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> how's 220.14(J)
> ~CS~


That just says lighting is to be taken into account in the 3W/sq-ft general load calc. 
It does NOT say a lighting outlet must use a 180VA figure. I have NO idea how you could interpret it that way.:001_huh:


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Besides, 220 i s load calcs. You do not use it to design circuits.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> how's 220.14(J)
> ~CS~


Isn't 220 mainly just calculations?


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

sbrn33 said:


> I wish everybody i bid against had your mentallity. I would get every house I bid.
> Why did you have to use 20 ampere recepts? You still could have used 15 if you wanted.


 I said it was my house. The one I live in. The one I own. I wanted 20 amp recepts. I also put button at front door that ring a bell.
And mentality is spelled wrong.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I thought it looked funny.
Were the 20 ampere one the only ones you could find on the jobsite?:thumbup::thumbup:


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## jmsmith (Sep 10, 2011)

Speedy Petey said:


> That just says lighting is to be taken into account in the 3W/sq-ft general load calc.
> It does NOT say a lighting outlet must use a 180VA figure. I have NO idea how you could interpret it that way.:001_huh:


The 180VA figure is for receptacle loads and branch circuit calcs in other than dwelling units. In dwelling units, lighting and receptacle loads (other than the ones you "shall" have) can be figured together. In the event of inductive loads, you go by the current rating on ballasts, etc.

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## semper_fi_electric (Dec 12, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> the code allows 180watts per lighting unit in a residence
> 
> the advantage of !2 is more lights than 14
> 
> ...


No where in the code, 2008 NEC, does it mention 180watts for residential... :no:


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> I wish everybody i bid against had your mentallity. I would get every house I bid.
> Why did you have to use 20 ampere recepts? You still could have used 15 if you wanted.


 Does the N.E.C. actually allow you to put 15 amp rated receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?The C.E.C requires us to match the receptacle rating to the breaker rating.So on a 20 amp breaker we have to install a 20 amp T-slot style receptacle.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

hmmm, seems i'm becomming one of those unsubstaintiated crummegeons i _loathed_ as an apprentice....~CS~


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

ptcrtn said:


> When I wired my house I used 12 for everything. Lighting separate from recpets on circuits. Each bedroom of recepts on separate circuit. Dining room separate recept circuit. Kitchen 4 circuits. Front outside recept separate circuit, back outside recect separate circuit. The inspector said I over did it and could of used 15 duplex recepts and did not have to use all 20 amp commercial grade duplex outlets. I said it was my house he just laughed


I would have laughed too :laughing: To each their own :thumbsup:


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

please everyone use larger copper wire whenever possible. I just bought stock in southwire.:thumbsup::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

ptcrtn said:


> When I wired my house I used 12 for everything. Lighting separate from recpets on circuits. Each bedroom of recepts on separate circuit. Dining room separate recept circuit. Kitchen 4 circuits. Front outside recept separate circuit, back outside recect separate circuit. The inspector said I over did it and could of used 15 duplex recepts and did not have to use all 20 amp commercial grade duplex outlets. I said it was my house he just laughed


I would have done it in Rigid Metal conduit as well..:whistling2::laughing:


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## ptcrtn (Mar 14, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> I would have done it in Rigid Metal conduit as well..:whistling2::laughing:


I thought about mc but that would be overdoing it


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## troublemaker1701 (Aug 11, 2011)

It's your house go for it:thumbsup:


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

crosport said:


> Does the N.E.C. actually allow you to put 15 amp rated receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?The C.E.C requires us to match the receptacle rating to the breaker rating.So on a 20 amp breaker we have to install a 20 amp T-slot style receptacle.


Sometimes dependent on application, if you look at the boxes for the outlets ( it is also printed somewhere on them too) it will say 15 amp receptacle 20 amp feed through. That's why for example in residential kitchen we don't have to put in 20 amp commercial grade outlets on the 20 amp circuits we can use the 15 amp configuration. Also like I said dependent on application just like with the 80% rule I have herd some inspectors here want 20 configured outlets used if the device is over 16 amps (20x80%=16) but thats for things like sump pumps etc. where the load is known.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Sparky J said:


> Sometimes dependent on application, if you look at the boxes for the outlets ( it is also printed somewhere on them too) it will say 15 amp receptacle 20 amp feed through. That's why for example in residential kitchen we don't have to put in 20 amp commercial grade outlets on the 20 amp circuits we can use the 15 amp configuration. Also like I said dependent on application just like with the 80% rule I have herd some inspectors here want 20 configured outlets used if the device is over 16 amps (20x80%=16) but thats for things like sump pumps etc. where the load is known.


 Makes sense.Thanx for the explanation.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

crosport said:


> Makes sense.Thanx for the explanation.


It does?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

electricmanscott said:


> It does?


Not to me...


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

crosport said:


> Does the N.E.C. actually allow you to put 15 amp rated receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?The C.E.C requires us to match the receptacle rating to the breaker rating.So on a 20 amp breaker we have to install a 20 amp T-slot style receptacle.


Yes, the NEC permits 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp branch circuit as long as there is more than one receptacle. (a duplex is two receptacles). If you would compare a 15 and 20 amp receptacle of the same series from a manufacturer, you will find that the insides are identical, including the "T" slot provision on the actual contact. The only difference is that the face plate on the 15 amp device will not have the "T" slot and the 20 amp on will.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Sparky J said:


> Sometimes dependent on application, if you look at the boxes for the outlets ( it is also printed somewhere on them too) it will say 15 amp receptacle 20 amp feed through. That's why for example in residential kitchen we don't have to put in 20 amp commercial grade outlets on the 20 amp circuits we can use the 15 amp configuration. Also like I said dependent on application just like with the 80% rule I have herd some inspectors here want 20 configured outlets used if the device is over 16 amps (20x80%=16) but thats for things like sump pumps etc. where the load is known.


don't appliances over 15 amp come with a 20 amp cord end requiring a 20 amp rec?


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

crosport said:


> Makes sense.Thanx for the explanation.


Also, single receptacles must match their circuit rating. You can't put a 15A single receptacle on a 20A circuit. (according to Code)


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## semper_fi_electric (Dec 12, 2011)

mbednarik said:


> I have no idea what fixture is getting installed until i put it up. makes ohm law kinda hard without knowing wattage.


They dont tell you what kinda fixture is going in? how do you know to put up a nail on, fan box, can or anything? sounds like your making something easy turn to hard... :thumbup:


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

semper_fi_electric said:


> They dont tell you what kinda fixture is going in? how do you know to put up a nail on, fan box, can or anything? sounds like your making something easy turn to hard... :thumbup:


i put fan boxes in all the bedrooms, dining rm, living room and great room areas just so i'm covered. If the home is sold (not a spec home) i will walk through with the owner and discuss cans, fixtures or fans. If its a spec home i discuss with the builder. To bid these homes i get just a floor plan and speced heating type and i go from there, design build.


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## semper_fi_electric (Dec 12, 2011)

mbednarik said:


> i put fan boxes in all the bedrooms, dining rm, living room and great room areas just so i'm covered. If the home is sold (not a spec home) i will walk through with the owner and discuss cans, fixtures or fans. If its a spec home i discuss with the builder. To bid these homes i get just a floor plan and speced heating type and i go from there, design build.


i hope you get paid for all tat extra fan boxes and stuff...


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*# 12 for lights*

Belleville Il. NO #14

*ROUGH IN AND CIRCUITS*

*1. *All work shall be done in a workman like manner.
*2. *All wiring shall be #12 AWG or larger excluding phone, sound, security and data etc.
*3. *Non-metallic sheathed cable (NM) or Romex is allowed only in Residential or Dwellings. 
*4. *All dwellings shall have smoke detectors, they shall be hard wired with battery back-up and shall be interconnected. Locations are to be: each bedroom, halls outside of bedrooms within 15 feet of bedrooms and each level of the home. These are mandatory even if an alarm system is installed.
*5. *All conduit installed shall use proper electrical fittings, plumbing fittings are not allowed.
*6. *All dwelling shall have carbon monoxide detectors with in 15 feet of the outside of all bedroom doors. They shall be interconnected to the smoke detectors and be both 110 volt and battery back up.
*7. *All rough-in wiring shall be completed and made up, all wiring shall be spliced and tailed out with at least 6 inches of wire extending from the box. All receptacles shall be tailed, feed thru on receptacles is allowed only on GFCI for down line protection.
All wiring in a basement smaller than 8/3 shall be installed in a chase or in drilled holes in the joists.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Reddog, Do they follow the N.E.C. or is that it?


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## reddog552 (Oct 11, 2007)

*2008 Nec*

Yes they follow NEC. Another exception they have is No romex in Cold air returns Must Be conduit or Mc. I run 3/4" conduit w bushings fire caulked. There also is a rule only 2 romexs in a hole.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

reddog552 said:


> Belleville Il. NO #14
> 
> *ROUGH IN AND CIRCUITS*
> 
> ...



Who wrote these rules, Nervous Nellie??? What a bunch of baloney.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

reddog552 said:


> Belleville Il. NO #14
> 
> *ROUGH IN AND CIRCUITS*
> 
> ...


I've never heard of anyone requiring pigtailing other than what the code already requires for neutrals.


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## sureline (Jun 11, 2011)

noarcflash said:


> In commerical work, we do indeed use #12 for lighting, but residential is always #14.


-AND YOUR A "LICENSED" ELECTRICIAN???.....REALLY?:no:----WOW...Was passing score 20% on your exam?


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

sureline said:


> -AND YOUR A "LICENSED" ELECTRICIAN???.....REALLY?:no:----WOW...Was passing score 20% on your exam?


what we call you down here is a "black hole"


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

noarcflash said:


> what we call you down here is a "black hole"


Man this dude is stalking you


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## prh44 (Dec 24, 2011)

crosport said:


> Does the N.E.C. actually allow you to put 15 amp rated receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?The C.E.C requires us to match the receptacle rating to the breaker rating.So on a 20 amp breaker we have to install a 20 amp T-slot style receptacle.


*Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size*​
*Circuits*
15 or 20 amp oulets can be used on a 20 amp circuit. You are not required to use 20 amp outlets in a kitchen only 20 amp circuits. However 210.21(B)(1) states
A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit
shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch​circuit.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

I replace my bathroom outlets every year. because the hair dryer wattage takes it's toll. 3 people using the hairdryer every morning. last time I brought a 20a outlet. we'll see if it last longer.

one day I'll take a current measurement on an 1800 watt hair drier.


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

semper_fi_electric said:


> i hope you get paid for all tat extra fan boxes and stuff...


i figure them into the bid, usually i am the only one the local GC's get bid from. Quality work goes a long ways.


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## plummen (Dec 19, 2011)

Cletis said:


> I most often put lights on 14 (unless I run out of 14 in truck).
> 
> Here is next important question. How much you all load that circuit up with ???


I room/1 circuit for me on residential stuff anyway,other than kitchens/bathrooms of course


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Maybe this is a foolish argument but seeing some of the wiring that is on lighting these days i sure would not want to chance some kind of an overload that may rely on the tripping of a 20 amp breaker no less even a 15 amp breaker. I would assume if you are wiring lights with 12ga then you are most likely using a 20amp breaker. I know some lights i have installed had 16ga and even 18ga wiring for them, i often wonder how that size wire is even code compliant.


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## sparkie2010 (Sep 15, 2009)

crosport said:


> Does the N.E.C. actually allow you to put 15 amp rated receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?The C.E.C requires us to match the receptacle rating to the breaker rating.So on a 20 amp breaker we have to install a 20 amp T-slot style receptacle.


The code see that in a 20a circuit ( 20 Breaker, 12 wire) with one outlet, not duplex then it would be rated to 20a.

However if I have more then one duplex I can use a 15 receptacle. If your asking how? The code see that in no time will one device be using 20a on one outlet.


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## plummen (Dec 19, 2011)

woodchuck2 said:


> Maybe this is a foolish argument but seeing some of the wiring that is on lighting these days i sure would not want to chance some kind of an overload that may rely on the tripping of a 20 amp breaker no less even a 15 amp breaker. I would assume if you are wiring lights with 12ga then you are most likely using a 20amp breaker. I know some lights i have installed had 16ga and even 18ga wiring for them, i often wonder how that size wire is even code compliant.


Whips on lighting fixtures are rated differantly for load


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

woodchuck2 said:


> Maybe this is a foolish argument but seeing some of the wiring that is on lighting these days i sure would not want to chance some kind of an overload that may rely on the tripping of a 20 amp breaker no less even a 15 amp breaker. I would assume if you are wiring lights with 12ga then you are most likely using a 20amp breaker. I know some lights i have installed had 16ga and even 18ga wiring for them, i often wonder how that size wire is even code compliant.


How is thus any different from plugging in a TV, radio or lamp with a #18 cord?

The breaker is there to protect the circuit conductors, not the load.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

fixture whips are legal following the same logic.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't really see what the issue is - but I do see some confusion over some of the 'basics.'

What size wire for the lighting? Well, the answer is determined by the load. A larger circuit lets you put more lights on that circuit. It's that simple. As a designer, you get to choose: bigger wire or more circuits.

A detail often overlooked is the amp rating of the switches. I've seen "ordinary light switches" with ratings as low as 5-amps. Indeed, it's pretty hard to find a 20-amp rated switch. Want to have some fun? Try finding a 20-amp, illuminated, 3-way switch :laughing: . The switch, btw, is sized to the load - not the entire circuit.

That's why 'cheapest' might not always be a good idea. Sure, you can put that single CFL closet light on an el-cheapo switch, and it will work for decades. Use that same switch to control the gazillion halogen recessed cans in the living room, and you'll get a callback.

The same applies to receptacles. (BTW, 15 and 20-amp rated receptacles get tested to exactly the same UL standard, and differ only in the plug slots). The UL tests are pretty feeble; if you REALLY want that device to regularly supply maximum power for extended periods, you'll want to spend more than $1 on it. You'll want a receptacle that really grabs the plug and has lots of metal-to-metal contact. Can you say 'hospital grade?' A $20 receptacle is cheaper than a $1 receptacle with a call-back.


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## french connection!! (Dec 13, 2007)

I used # 10 a couple times for some huge mansion to compensate voltage drop , then used #12 from junction box , and it's on 20 amps circuits breakers .


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## darren79 (Dec 20, 2011)

french connection!! said:


> I used # 10 a couple times for some huge mansion to compensate voltage drop , then used #12 from junction box , and it's on 20 amps circuits breakers .


I have ran #8 for a 15A circuit before.


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## cultch (Aug 2, 2011)

plummen said:


> Whips on lighting fixtures are rated differantly for load


That's what I think. They are telling us to run the emg lighting in 10awg AND use 10 wire whips...that get tied onto 16 guage in the light. It may be spec...but it sure doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...I'm having a hard time figuring out why some of the emg circuits need to be in 10 at all when the panel is not that far away...some go all around the place but not all of them...dumbing it down???


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