# Name Plate on Finnish Sauna



## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Jupe Blue said:


> I'm supposed to wire for and hook up an basement sauna. Have no information except the name plate reads:
> 
> 22O volts
> 8 + 4 KW
> ...


I have done many saunas that take a 40 amps conductor but I have never done one that large. It is odd but I am wondering-- Is the unit there? If I saw a label that said 8 + 4 kw i would wonder if there are two sets of elements. I would call the place they bought it or I would call some 800 number and find out more info. 

Do you have a make and model #?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I guess it doesn't matter what most saunas are. This one is apparently 12kw, and you need to wire accordingly. It's a heating appliance that's going to draw 50-couple amps. Looks like #6


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

If the nameplate on the unit is 220v then one would take 12000/220= 55amps. Now if the actual voltage is 240 volts wont the amperage increase with resistant heat. E= I x R
Thus at 240 volts it would be 60 amps, I think. 

If this is the case then #6, assuming nm cable, will not work. If you are under the 2005 then you could use se cable which would be rated at 75C.

I would be cautious on this one. I would hate to install the wrong wire and then have to redo it.


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## lectricboy (Mar 11, 2009)

I assume this is a single phase unit. Watts divided by volts = amps. I get 50 amps.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

lectricboy said:


> I assume this is a single phase unit. Watts divided by volts = amps. I get 50 amps.


Yes the unit is 12000 watts at 220 volts is 55 amps. You cannot just take 12000 watts and divide by 240 volts


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## lectricboy (Mar 11, 2009)

electricista said:


> Yes the unit is 12000 watts at 220 volts is 55 amps. You cannot just take 12000 watts and divide by 240 volts


 
Why not?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

lectricboy said:


> Why not?


 The nameplate says 12kw at 220 volts not 240 volts. With resistant heat the increase in voltage will increase the amperage.

The formula E=IR. E is volts I is amps R is resistance
Solve the equation for R and we get R= volts/ amps

We know that at 220 volts the unit is 12kw so 12000/220= 55 amps

R= 240/ 55 = 4 ohms

Now to find the amperage

Sove the same equation for I
I= Volts/ ohms
I= 240/4 = 60 amps

Does this help


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## lectricboy (Mar 11, 2009)

electricista said:


> The nameplate says 12kw at 220 volts not 240 volts. With resistant heat the increase in voltage will increase the amperage.
> 
> The formula E=IR. E is volts I is amps R is resistance
> Solve the equation for R and we get R= volts/ amps
> ...


 I guess I didn''t get the memo that Ohm's law had been repealed. You said this unit would draw 55 amps at 220 volt, 12000/220=54.5454, that is the same thing you just told me I couldn't do. Tell you what, we'll ask the original post to let us know what the actual current is after he is done with the job, bet you a beer it will be right around 50 amps.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

lectricboy said:


> I guess I didn''t get the memo that Ohm's law had been repealed. You said this unit would draw 55 amps at 220 volt, 12000/220=54.5454, that is the same thing you just told me I couldn't do. Tell you what, we'll ask the original post to let us know what the actual current is after he is done with the job, bet you a beer it will be right around 50 amps.


You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. I told you that you could not just 240 volts instead of 220 volts if in fact that is the actual voltage on the nameplate. Of course you can divide 12kw by the nameplate but you just can't substitute any voltage with this type of load. Motors yes but not resistance.

I am not betting on what the op meant but what is stated. That is all I can go by.


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

electricista said:


> I have done many saunas that take a 40 amps conductor but I have never done one that large. It is odd but I am wondering-- Is the unit there? If I saw a label that said 8 + 4 kw i would wonder if there are two sets of elements. I would call the place they bought it or I would call some 800 number and find out more info.
> 
> Do you have a make and model #?



I don't have the make and model handy at this time. The project is a whole house rewire and the owner cut free all wiring for accessible boxes and appliances. 


The new owner who doesn't have any information about the sauna or even if it works. I did not consider the possibility of two sets of elements. That's why the 8 + 4 KW has confused me... I had wondered why they just didn't list it at 12 KW. 

I'll keep you posted as I find out more. Thanks, Jupe Blue


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

electricista said:


> You asked me a question and I gave you an answer. I told you that you could not just 240 volts instead of 220 volts if in fact that is the actual voltage on the nameplate. Of course you can divide 12kw by the nameplate but you just can't substitute any voltage with this type of load. Motors yes but not resistance.
> 
> I am not betting on what the op meant but what is stated. That is all I can go by.



Hello, really the only information I have on the sauna is what came off the nameplate; I haven't had time to tear into it to see if it dual element or if there is more information inside the unit.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm wondering if the higher wattage output may cause any issues for the equipment.

12000W / 220V = 54.54A nameplate rating.
220V / 54.54A = 4.03 ohms 
240V / 4.03 ohms = 59.55A
240V X 59.55A = 14292W actual output wattage is 2292W higher than nameplate rating. [Problem?]
14292W / 240V = 59.55A proven and rounded up to 60A.

Another example of this is the old style [email protected] water heater immersion elements that also had a lower 3380W rating at 208V. The resistance was the same regardless of the voltage.

Element at 240V: 
4500W / 240V =18.75A
240W / 18.75A =12.8 ohms
240V X 18.75A = 4500W

The same element at 208V:
208 X 208 / 12.8 ohms = 3380W
3380W / 208V = 16.25A
208 X 16.25A = 3380W


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

The obvious question is. Is it listed? No listing makes whatever wattage it is of no importance.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

flashmn said:


> The obvious question is. Is it listed? No listing makes whatever wattage it is of no importance.


 
BINGO:thumbup:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

flashmn said:


> The obvious question is. Is it listed? No listing makes whatever wattage it is of no importance.


That's was I was wondering as I read this thread.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

KayJay said:


> 12000W / 54.54A = 4.03 ohms


 
when I divide 12000W by 54.54A I get 220.022 V
I don't get ohms, or 4.03 ohms. You need to revisit ohm's law bro.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

steelersman said:


> when I divide 12000W by 54.54A I get 220.022 V
> I don't get ohms, or 4.03 ohms. You need to revisit ohm's law bro.


Easy Garth. I think he knows Ohms law. I believe it was a typo. 
220 volts/54.54 amps = 4.03 ohms


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

steelersman said:


> when I divide 12000W by 54.54A I get 220.022 V
> I don't get ohms, or 4.03 ohms. You need to revisit ohm's law bro.


My bad. I did it long hand and copied the info wrong. I went back and fixed it. :wheelchair:


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

The listed ones that I have hooked up that say X+Y kw have two heating elements. Ergo 1ea 4kw and 1ea 8 kw element. 4kw divided by 240 =16.66amps X 125% = 20.833amps. 8kw divided by 240v = 33.33A x 125% = 41.66A. So you need a 20A & a 50 A ckt for a listed sauna heater.


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

OOPS correction a 25 (30) & a 50


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

flashmn said:


> The listed ones that I have hooked up that say X+Y kw have two heating elements. Ergo 1ea 4kw and 1ea 8 kw element. 4kw divided by 240 =16.66amps X 125% = 20.833amps. 8kw divided by 240v = 33.33A x 125% = 41.66A. So you need a 20A & a 50 A ckt for a listed sauna heater.



Does a sauna require 125%? I am not certain that is true.


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

See 424.22E (2005NEC) A sauna heater is a fixed space heater.


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

Also see 210.20A it is a continuous load.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

flashmn said:


> See 424.22E (2005NEC) A sauna heater is a fixed space heater.


I don't see a sauna as a fixed heater but as an appliance and I don't consider it as a continuous load. Again just a thought and I may be way off.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

electricista said:


> I don't see a sauna as a fixed heater but as an appliance and I don't consider it as a continuous load. Again just a thought and I may be way off.


I haven't looked at the code articles, but I was also questioning that as well in my mind when he posted that 125% rule, but it wasn't important enough for me to look in the book. But I don't think it applies.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Certainly the thermostats will cycle some or all of the elements off and on. If they thing was continuous, it would heat up until it burst into flame. :laughing:

Q: Do these saunas get a little water line plumbed to them or am I thinking about something else? I know one of those thingamajigs is steamy and another type is dry. Myself, I try to stay out of hot places if I can help it.


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Myself, I try to stay out of hot places if I can help it.


Me too.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Me too.


I don't blame you.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Chris Kennedy said:


> Me too.


I guess some people get some benefit from being in a sauna, but for me it doesn't add up. "You want to what? Go in someplace really freaking hot and sweat out a gallon? Knock yourself out. I'll be over here in the air conditioning."


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

All fixed space heaters have some sort of t'stat or they all would "burst into flames". 424.1 "This article covers fixed electric equipment used for space heating". 424.3 (B) Fixed electric space heating equipment shall be considered a continuous load.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

flashmn said:


> All fixed space heaters have some sort of t'stat or they all would "burst into flames". 424.1 "This article covers fixed electric equipment used for space heating". 424.3 (B) Fixed electric space heating equipment shall be considered a continuous load.


I believe we all understand that and the section you posted. It is a matter of definition. Is the unit a space heater or an appliance. A range has elements and is an appliance.



> 424.1 Scope.
> This article covers fixed electric equipment used for space heating. For the purpose of this article, heating equipment shall include heating cable, unit heaters, boilers, central systems, or other approved fixed electric space-heating equipment. *This article shall not apply to process heating* and room air conditioning.


So what is process heating? My gut says that 424 is about furnaces, baseboard heaters etc. Again, I am not certain on this but it is a gut feeling.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

electricista said:


> I am not certain on this but it is a gut feeling.


 
You have a gut? :laughing:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

steelersman said:


> You have a gut? :laughing:


I bet you didn't think guts could talk, did you?


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

Well, I never did get sent back to wire the sauna. My shop sent another electrician. He said he wired it on a 2 pole 40 amp breaker. He said that dual elements would not be on simultaneously so the 40 amp would be enough. 

He did mention that there was some sort of disconnect/control panel so maybe that kept the elements from coming on at the same time. 

Passed inspection, but the job was a full basement remodel but who knows if the inspector really looked at the sauna closely.

I hate when I don't get to finish the job... I don't like knowing all the details (which he couldn't give me).


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Jupe Blue said:


> I don't like knowing all the details (which he couldn't give me).


I hope you meant that you don't like NOT knowing all the details, cause I sure would want to know them all.


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

FWIW the local AHJs consider a sauna heater a appliance if it has a timer to shut it off & a fixed space heater if it doesn't.


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## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

steelersman said:


> I hope you meant that you don't like NOT knowing all the details, cause I sure would want to know them all.


Oops, yes, I want all the details. Makes me crazy if I don't get to finish the job and never know the outcome.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

flashmn said:


> FWIW the local AHJs consider a sauna heater a appliance if it has a timer to shut it off & a fixed space heater if it doesn't.


Interesting, based on what I wonder? I am getting ready to wire a 6000 watt sauna and the nameplate is 240 volts with a min cir ampacity of 25 amps. This unit has a thermostat built in however the math shows 6000/240= 25 amps. #10 wire is specified as minimum size. 125% does not enter into the equation.


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## flashmn (Mar 29, 2007)

*Name plate on finnish sauna*

With a timer the unit will shut off after a certain amount of time. Without the timer it could run and keep the temp of the room at a fixed temp. indeff. ie a fixed space heater.


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