# Fused neutral panel!



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Never a good idea to increase fuse sizes.

You assumed the circuits where wired like we do today. At that age it was likely a knob and tube job, in that case they did not always use the right neutral so you could have two 15 amp hots on the same phase returning on one neutral.

Great you got them to do a service change but increasing fuses sizes without knowing about the circuit first is never a good plan.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Never a good idea to increase fuse sizes.
> 
> You assumed the circuits where wired like we do today. At that age it was likely a knob and tube job, in that case they did not always use the right neutral so you could have two 15 amp hots on the same phase returning on one neutral.
> 
> Great you got them to do a service change but increasing fuses sizes without knowing about the circuit first is never a good plan.


 
If I was sure it was a neutral fuse, I would not be afraid to put a penny in it. I stumbled accross a fusebox with fused neutrals a while back. . It was being used as a subpanel, it was originally the main "panel" for the house, built in 1926. THe homeowner hired a local handyman to replace it with a small breaker panel. It was 10 shades of all ****ed up and he called me. The home still had Knob and tube in the attic. It was buried in insulation. 


Never help out a handyman in over his head? Well, I ended up getting a $5500 dollar job out of the deal to rewire the entire second floor of the home and fix the handyman's ****up. I also gained a loyal customer and some good word of mouth advertising. You just never know.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> If I was sure it was a neutral fuse, I would not be afraid to put a penny in it.


I can't help it if you make bad choices. :thumbsup:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I can't help it if you make bad choices. :thumbsup:


And just why do you say that? You are gonna have to spell it out. I ain't that bright.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

doubleoh7 said:


> And just why do you say that? You are gonna have to spell it out.


I did in post 2. :thumbsup:


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I did in post 2. :thumbsup:


 
You got a point. I missed it. See, I told you I aint that bright.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

zoopenny said:


> I recently came across a fused neutral panel, at a friend's grandpa's house... that took me a few minutes to figure out! All I wanted to do was add a single GFCI or maybe two, for the contractor who was doing the work outside on the patio grinding out the mortar between bricks... he kept blowing the 15 amp fuses when he leaned on the grinder. I figured rather than continually heat up the knob and tube circuit, if I threw a 10 foot piece of #12 awg MC cable into it and brought it through the wall to outside and used a GFCI receptacle in a bell box, I'd sleep better, and they could grind for more than 10 minutes without a new fuse . So I pulled the dead front to have a look at the situation... and sat there scratching my head. The house was built in 1927. Once I figured it out, I went through and replaced all the neutral fuses with(*50 amp*) ones (temporary) and made sure all the line fuses were at 15 or 20 appropriately. I told the owner I didn't want to work in the panel (as I am a "friend" and NOT a licensed contractor) and then I convinced the owner to hire a contractor, get the permit and do a service change out... then I really slept better! I salvaged the old panel and knife switch disconnects and brought it all to the JATC apprenticeship school. It is a cool old house, though... Moral of story... beware of friends with "little" electrical problems!




Two things ..... WTF are you doing in the panel????

..... Where do you get 50 amp edison base fuses????



Smells like B S to me.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

I was just going to comment about the EB fuses. You should've used time delay fuses, as the overload was for a short duration.


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

*fused neutral panel*

I guess I misremembered the fuse size? Whatever guys. I went and bought the biggest edison based fuses for sale at the store, and once I knew what was going on in the panel (more careful observation), I confirmed it with my meter, and changed the neutral fuses out. I just know that you don't impede the path of the electricity on the return leg. I don't see the problem there, but would love to learn what was wrong with that logic. Are you telling me there is a time in a resi panel when a blown open neutral is a good thing??? Please enlighten me. And thanks for the hearty welcome??? The knob and tube system was untouched in the house, except for a few taps in the workshop. The house had no insulation and open rafters in the downstairs and attic. I wasn't going in blind. Geez. Sorry I even posted. :no:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I would have taken out the fuse and tied them together assuming that they had the proper size fuses in there.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I would have taken out the fuse and tied them together assuming that they had the proper size fuses in there.


Increasing OCPD sizes or eliminating them with out knowing the circuit is a poor choice for a professional


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Increasing OCPD sizes or eliminating them with out knowing the circuit is a poor choice for a professional


I guess I am a poor professional. BTW, who said I wasn't checking it out?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Increasing OCPD sizes or eliminating them with out knowing the circuit is a poor choice for a professional


If the circuit had proper fuse sizes for the wire size and they were not blowing fuses then I don't see the issue. It wouldn't take much to see what load is on it.


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

*Self defense!*

OK, my apologies, I was mistaken on the size of the fuse as you poignantly pointed out. I just went out to the shop and found the box of fuses, the ones I used on the neutrals were 30 amp. The ones that they were blowing were 15 and 20 amp time delay, type TL. 

As for why I was in the panel? Well, a friend called me and asked for my help. I have 7748 hours in the trade. I don't know everything, far from it, but I have *some* experience. I went to take a look, and see if I could help. There was no problem before, other than the fuses kept blowing and the workmen kept looking for "other" outlets to plug into (which led to more blown fuses)! I also saw the potential for the neutral to blow instead of the line, and was concerned that if that happened someone could have been seriously shocked... as they were working outdoors in WA... (especially with no equipment grounds on the system). With the neutral open, the only return path would have been through the workman and the earth, which is a terrible situation!!!. And I didn't want anyone to decide to "just put in a bigger fuse" to get by, (I'm sure no one has ever seen a layman do that before!) and cause a fire. As I said, the owner was a friend and I didn't want to see anyone hurt. I'd been to NFPA 70E and saw too many real youtube videos of people dying from 120 volt shocks... without GFCI and no equipment grounds, it just seemed sketchy to me. 

I did consult a couple of JW's along the way and I did the best I could. If you know of a better solution, I'm open to learning.That's why I posted in the first place. And I did get her to have the service changed out withing a week. Geez! :thumbup:


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Never a good idea to increase fuse sizes.
> 
> You assumed the circuits where wired like we do today. At that age it was likely a knob and tube job, in that case they did not always use the right neutral so you could have two 15 amp hots on the same phase returning on one neutral.
> 
> So it was a single phase service. Wouldn't it be even more important to be sure that the neutral doesn't blow open if it was a shared neutral? Wouldn't you want the appropriate ungrounded conductor's fuse to blow and NOT the neutral? You are right it was a Knob and Tube job, a historic home with no significant modifications and no insulation. I don't understand... educate me, I want to learn.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If the neutral fuses were blowing then it may be because of what Bob (BBQ) was saying. There is a potential issue if the neutrals are shared by 2 circuits on the same phase. Increasing the fuse will allow the circuit to work but may be heating up the neutral wire beyond its ampacity.


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> If the neutral fuses were blowing then it may be because of what Bob (BBQ) was saying. There is a potential issue if the neutrals are shared by 2 circuits on the same phase. Increasing the fuse will allow the circuit to work but may be heating up the neutral wire beyond its ampacity.


Oh...Thanks.... *now* I get that. The house was unoccupied. There was a neutral for each circuit (which I understand does NOT guarantee that they are each a dedicated neutral) and the only loads were the guys with the grinders. And maybe a couple of lamps. I get that it is possible that the neutrals were shared, but I used a fluke T-5 to check out the loading and didn't see it. But admittedly didn't think of it, either. As you said earlier, I *did* check out a few things along the way to try to determine which circuits they were loading. I can't swear to you that it was or was not the neutral that the fuses blew on, I don't remember. I just was thinking of the potential for the neutral to be open when the grounded conductor was hot posing a hazard. 

Now I can sincerely thank you, as I have learned something new to consider if ever I run into another one, and maybe some other reader may have learned something too. Thank you! :thumbup:


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## zoopenny (May 29, 2011)

*Crap... now that poses a new question!*

Okay, so the service is upgraded to 200 amp square D panel. Permitted, inspected and signed off. But the whole house was not rewired. What's to say the original K and T neutrals aren't shared now? The neutrals are no longer fused at all. Is that a concern? The house is still unoccupied for now. Is further investigation required? What do you do with a historic home like this? Did the service upgrade potentially create a new hazard???


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