# Change ballast



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

No ...............


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Nope. I would offer the option of doing night work so I could do the work safely, though.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Yes........,


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## Mike D (Sep 16, 2008)

nope. After hours.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

BBQ said:


> No ...............





480sparky said:


> Nope. I would offer the option of doing night work so I could do the work safely, though.


I would not change the ballasts live. I would do as 480 suggested and offer to make accommodations to come in in the evening or another time when the lights could be turned off.

Hand the manager of the store an energized electrical work permit and have him fill out the justification part and sign it. Bet they will change their tune and let you turn off the lights.

Chris


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

If the lights have the quick diconnect it is not an issue or possibly turn off a row at a time I hope you add the quick disconnect as you change them out.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

If it's a large store with 20 bad ballasts, chances are there is multiple circuits and a buttload of light. Turning off one circuit at a time shouldn't be that big a deal. 

Now, if you had class 0 gloves, would you do it hot?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> If it's a large store with 20 bad ballasts, chances are there is multiple circuits and a buttload of light. Turning off one circuit at a time shouldn't be that big a deal.
> 
> Now, if you had class 0 gloves, would you do it hot?


 Over the last 30 years I have changed out more live ballsts than I can count it was just the way it was done myself I feel confident enough in my skills to do live changes now I wouldn't ask this of an employee.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BDB said:


> If I knew how to make a poll I would, but since I do not know how we will do it this way:
> 
> If you were sent to a large store to change out say 20 ballast and the lights were 277 volt and you were told you can not turn the lights off, would you change the ballast with the lights still hot?


Yes i would but that is just me.
If i had anyone working for me then it's getting shut off or it's not getting done.

Your boss cannot make you do it so if tells you that you have to that is Illegal and OSHA will nail him to the cross..

There is no reason that you cannot turn off a light circuit during day light hours.

You should not have to do it live and your boss should know better.

You can call OSHA and get your boss fixed. A nice big fine will change that attitude .:laughing:


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes i would but that is just me.
> If i had anyone working for me then it's getting shut off or it's not getting done.
> 
> Your boss cannot make you do it so if tells you that you have to that is Illegal and OSHA will nail him to the cross..
> ...


 Yea get the Boss fined so he goes out of business and puts you in the unemployement line :laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

as for posting a poll you i think you can Edit your first post just click edit look at the bottom of the page click go advanced now scroll down there is another page below that says additional options on that page at the bottom there is a click to start a poll.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr Rewire said:


> Yea get the Boss fined so he goes out of business and puts you in the unemployement line :laughing:


Funny how that works....:laughing::laughing:


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

Yeah +1 to disconnect. I used to change them out hot everyday. After awhile you learn what is just not worth doing.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Mr Rewire said:


> Over the last 30 years I have changed out more live ballsts than I can count it was just the way it was done* myself I feel confident enough in my skills to do live changes* now I wouldn't ask this of an employee.


I'll bet almost every electrician that has been severely injured or killed due to and electric shock or arc flash said the same thing.

It is this attitude that leads to most electrical accidents.

Chris


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Yes. Only if each light had it's own whip. I would not undo a wirenut hot that had ten fixtures on it. I don't twist, so I must assume no one does either.

It would also depend on the company policy.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

At 277V.. no.. at 120V.. yes..


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

I would not ?nuetral kick on 277v is a serious ass whopping...or death ..Thrown off a ladder a.k.a accident...is bullsh t.The boss is not always right..:no:When it comes to safety.Under load


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

Wiring up electronic ballasts hot can damage the ballast. I guess you could find the junction box and disconnect them a row at a time from a junction box.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

There was a time when I did 347 volt ballasts hot. I won't even do 120 volt ones hot now. If they were new luminaires with the quck connects I would work them with live through wiring in the fixture.

After my first Arc Flash course I never want to be one of those examples. Amazing how many of the electrical workers that have been injured in an arc blast were very experienced workers. Some with only 1 safety related incident. In several cases Fatal.

Maybe a poke from the 277 volt circuit might not result in electrocution but how long would a broken leg put you out of work if you fell off the ladder after a poke?


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

raider1 said:


> I'll bet almost every electrician that has been severely injured or killed due to and electric shock or arc flash said the same thing.
> 
> It is this attitude that leads to most electrical accidents.
> 
> Chris


 The last burn accident we had several years ago in our local was due to just not checking far enough the guys pulled a 480 3 phase knife switch checked from A to ground and then from A to C and read 0 both times unfortunatly B phase had hung and was still live they failed to ground check each phase.


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## Rockyd (Apr 22, 2007)

Mshea said:


> There was a time when I did 347 volt ballasts hot. I won't even do 120 volt ones hot now. If they were new luminaires with the quck connects I would work them with live through wiring in the fixture.
> 
> After my first Arc Flash course I never want to be one of those examples. Amazing how many of the electrical workers that have been injured in an arc blast were very experienced workers. Some with only 1 safety related incident. In several cases Fatal.
> 
> Maybe a poke from the *277 volt circuit might not result in electrocution* but how long would a broken leg put you out of work if you fell off the ladder after a poke?


I took a 277 hit in the 90's in Seattle. Knocked me off the ladder I was on, and generally kicked my a$$ really hard - I'd have sworn you could feel the cycles! I considered myself lucky, and changed the way I look at "working live".

If your life is worth someone else's convenience then you can't be worth much. Plus, if you do have "an accident" it's entirely possible that whatever, or whoever, you were doing this for is greatly iconvenienced....might even have to fill out an accident report, talk to Emergency Medical Technicians, OSHA investigators, the press, etc. Not to mention lawyers, a firing,_ real convenient_. One has to keep their priorities straight...


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

If it was one or two, then yes. More than that and I would do it after hours when I could shut them off and customers weren't in my way.


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## CJE (Oct 10, 2010)

Rockyd said:


> I took a 277 hit in the 90's in Seattle. Knocked me off the ladder I was on, and generally kicked my a$$ really hard - I'd have sworn you could feel the cycles! I considered myself lucky, and changed the way I look at "working live".


I used to change 277 ballasts live regularly. I got up against the neutral on one (would have sworn I capped it, obviously I didn't) I stayed on the ladder somehow, but it hurt like 10,000 sons of . Even better, it was an aluminum ladder. I thought I could feel the cycles too.:laughing: Haven't done one live since. Somebody else's inconvenience is not my problem. If they want it done now, the breaker will be off. I will change them after hours if that's what they want.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

In the old days I would do it hot. Now it would need to be locked out. Thats just the way it is.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

No. It's not worth messing around with.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

B4T said:


> At 277V.. no.. at 120V.. yes..


Thats just silly Bob. Your body don't care if its 277 or 120 volts.



ce2two said:


> I would not ?nuetral kick on 277v is a serious ass whopping...or death ..Thrown off a ladder a.k.a accident...is bullsh t.The boss is not always right..:no:When it comes to safety.Under load


All dumb moves hurt. 277-480-600-24-120-240 volts all can hurt. When I hear someone say 277 is any different than any other voltage, I either think they are new and have been listening to the old farts on the job, or they are the old farts talking this crap. 



kaboler said:


> Wiring up electronic ballasts hot can damage the ballast. I guess you could find the junction box and disconnect them a row at a time from a junction box.


Now, how would that matter. Either way you are opening a circuit under a load. It no makes no difference where you break the connection. Its the same at the fixture or a jbox that feeds several fixtures.

I would *never* encourage anyone to work on anything hot. But that is not what the poll is about. Its asked would I do it. My answer was yes.


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

John Valdes said:


> Thats just silly Bob. Your body don't care if its 277 or 120 volts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Your answer is YES...CAN YOU SPELL IDIOT...:laughing: 120 VAC AIN'T **** ..There i said it, you and me will never agree:no:...Let's talk direct current ..it holds on, it does not want let go...75 % of electricians don't work around Direct current, let alone electronics ...30 yrs. in the biz. Degree in electronics too boot...respect it or die...With out a electonics background you ARE of no VALUE TO ME..PINK SLIP PLEASE FOR YOU.:laughing:ADDED TO STIR UP THE CROWD...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Thats just silly Bob. Your body don't care if its 277 or 120 volts.


I have only been bit by 277V once and it was enough to remind me to never let it happen again.. :no:

Getting bit by 120V is more of a nuisance than anything else..

Some will agree with me and some will say I am crazy.. 

I am just answering the OP question and telling you what I feel comfortable working with..


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## sparky105 (Sep 29, 2009)

I prefer to kill it, but I don't spend a lot of time hunting down unidentified curciuts if it is clearly marked I kill it. If not it doesn't stop me.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

B4T said:


> I have only been bit by 277V once and it was enough to remind me to never let it happen again.. :no:
> 
> Getting bit by 120V is more of a nuisance than anything else..
> 
> ...


Same here on all points.

In the ops case I would definitely shut down before changing the ballasts. One or two I'd probably be careful and do them hot.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> I have only been bit by 277V once and it was enough to remind me to never let it happen again.. :no:
> 
> Getting bit by 120V is more of a nuisance than anything else.=


Frequencies of Electrocution Incidents Identified by FACE by Low Voltage Level (<600 Volts), 1982-1994







​


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Frequencies of Electrocution Incidents Identified by FACE by Low Voltage Level (<600 Volts), 1982-1994
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Life is full of danger.. I could also get T boned by someone running a red light.. but I have to drive my truck to the job..

I always make sure to have only one hand in harm's way to make sure the current does not go through my chest..


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Last time i caught a 277 bite i was 18 yo, checking out the cleavage of a secretary while working above a susp. ceiling, fell off the ladder and nearly got mouth to mouth.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

B4T said:


> Life is full of danger.. I could also get T boned by someone running a red light.. but I have to drive my truck to the job..


That is 100% correct, we have to drive.

We do not have to work hot.

But I am not trying to change your habits, you will do what you want.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Frequencies of Electrocution Incidents Identified by FACE by Low Voltage Level (<600 Volts), 1982-1994


 Those stats for qualified Electricians or just the grand total of people that have been Electrocuted.?


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Put me in as a Yep!  I cut the 18 awg ballast wire ,and don't try to f** with the whips.little grey wire nuts,dunne!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> Put me in as a Yep! I cut the 18 awg ballast wire ,and don't try to f** with the whips.little grey wire nuts,dunne!


 A lot of ballasts have an open circuit voltage above 200V... I don't think that solution is any safer.... :blink:

-John


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## wfurrer (Feb 22, 2011)

Safety first, unless it cost too much.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

Its a pretty safe bet that if you have two workers and the boss asks whos gonna work it hot one of them will and the other will be one step closer to being let go.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Those stats for qualified Electricians or just the grand total of people that have been Electrocuted.?


That is for all electrocutions in the work place.

Here is how it breaks down by trade. As you can see even those with electrical training come in at spots 1 and 3.










But my point when I posted the info was to show that 120 volt can kill.

Of course that has a lot to do with the fact more people work with 120 than the other voltages but regardless it is killing people in our trade.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

The place I sent my guy to change ballast said he could not turn the circuits off. My guy called me and told me what the manager said, and my guy said well I guess I will work them hot. I very quickly said DO WHAT? Do you not pay attention to our safety meetings? I get in my truck and go to the place and look up the manager and told him we will not work them hot for safety reasons. He asked me why did the other company (this was our first service call for this store)work them hot? I just flat told him, because they are dumb. Told him he had two choices, 1. We turn the circuit off to the row we work on or 2. We pick up our things and he can find another contractor to change them. We turned them off and finished the job.


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## Stardrill (Mar 8, 2008)

I believe that if you are careful most times the ballast can be safely changed while hot.

If the power has to be shut off they might have the janitor do it.


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## Teaspoon (Jan 10, 2009)

BDB said:


> If I knew how to make a poll I would, but since I do not know how we will do it this way:
> 
> If you were sent to a large store to change out say 20 ballast and the lights were 277 volt and you were told you can not turn the lights off, would you change the ballast with the lights still hot?


No Not Me! Unnecessary Chance taking !


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Stardrill said:


> I believe that if you are careful most times the ballast can be safely changed while hot.
> 
> If the power has to be shut off they might have the janitor do it.


And you live another day..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Stardrill said:


> I believe that if you are careful most times the ballast can be safely changed while hot.
> 
> If the power has to be shut off they might have the janitor do it.





> If the power has to be shut off they might have the janitor do it


That is why the wago's are required by 410.130 (G) so the cleaning companys can have their guys do just that..:no:

Thats why i cut them off and throw them away..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> That is for all electrocutions in the work place.
> 
> Here is how it breaks down by trade. As you can see even those with electrical training come in at spots 1 and 3.
> 
> ...


 Wow Look at that number for painters maybe they need some traning like not touching Electrical work and sticking to painting...:laughing:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Except now under the '11, I believe if the disconnects aren't there, they have to be added when changing a ballast. I think I would rather not do that off a 8ft live.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> Except now under the '11, I believe if the disconnects aren't there, they have to be added when changing a ballast. I think I would rather not do that off a 8ft live.


Do you have a code#... I don't have an '11 book yet. I know I know :blink:


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

im going to admit every time i changed a 277v ballast live i was very nervous. i like to turn them off but also heard "you cant shut off the lights". i turn them off every time i change a ballast now 277 would ruin my day


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Do you have a code#... I don't have an '11 book yet. I know I know :blink:


410.130(G) they added the following words.



> For existing installed luminaires without disconnecting means, at the time a ballast is replaced, a disconnecting means shall be installed.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Do you have a code#... I don't have an '11 book yet. I know I know :blink:


2011 NEC 410.130(G)..

*
(G) Disconnecting Means.
(1) General.​*​​​​In indoor locations other than dwellings and
associated accessory structures, fluorescent luminaires that utilize
double-ended lamps and contain ballast(s) that can be​
serviced in place shall have a disconnecting means either internal

internal
or external to each luminaire. For existing installed luminaires
without disconnecting means, at the time a ballast is
replaced, a disconnecting means shall be installed. The line​side terminals of the disconnecting means shall be guarded.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Wow Look at that number for painters maybe they need some traning like not touching Electrical work and sticking to painting...:laughing:


 I think it's the whole aluminum ladder/scaffold thing. Just the other day I watched saw some painters stringing ropes and tarps over the front of the building not even 6 feet away from a 24kV pole line.

Should I have gone and yelled at them for being that stupid? Would it have even made any difference? :no:

-John


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Had to finish my pizza or the dog would steal it.

410.130G(1)

I see I am a little late...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> 410.130(G) they added the following words.



You beat me to it by 5 minutes...:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Big John said:


> I think it's the whole aluminum ladder/scaffold thing. Just the other day I watched saw some painters stringing ropes and tarps over the front of the building not even 6 feet away from a 24kV pole line.
> 
> Should I have gone and yelled at them for being that stupid? Would it have even made any difference? :no:
> 
> -John


 No it never will with those guys...


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## hotwire1955 (Jan 27, 2009)

Big John said:


> I think it's the whole aluminum ladder/scaffold thing. Just the other day I watched saw some painters stringing ropes and tarps over the front of the building not even 6 feet away from a 24kV pole line.
> 
> Should I have gone and yelled at them for being that stupid? Would it have even made any difference? :no:
> 
> -John


 No, they probably don't understand English


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Wow Look at that number for painters maybe they need some traning like not touching Electrical work and sticking to painting...:laughing:


Its got to be because painters are always fiddling with coverplates and masking fixtures.


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## rearaf1 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Change Ballast*

If you want your Army son to be the proud son of a Father that is still alive, turn off the power and do the work safely. It is not worth the risk.


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## gnxtc2 (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't understand what the big deal of changing the ballast live is. Once you take the cover over, you uncap the hot, then the neutral the ballast is dead. Just re-cap the live wires and change the ballast.

I've change countless ballasts 120-277v live. 

To me it's more PIA to get the bulb back into the socket in a lay-in fixture. I've arced out plenty of bulbs also.

Billy T.
[email protected]


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## The Lightman (Jan 9, 2010)

gnxtc2 said:


> I don't understand what the big deal of changing the ballast live is.


Everybody here has replaced a ballast in the past G. 
I am putting together a presentation for an organization that I belong to regarding this task. Not only are untrained "engineers doing it, now, there are day porters and building services people changing ballasts near me for $9.00 an hour. 
The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), Division of Safety Research (DSR) is currently conducting the Fatal Accident Circumstances and Epidemiology (FACE) Project, which is focusing primarily upon selected electrical-related and confined space-related fatalities. The purpose of the FACE program is to identify and rank factors that influence the risk of fatal injuries for selected employees. 
*Synopsis of Events *On June 23, 1987, while repairing a fluorescent light fixture over a kitchen sink in a single-family residence, a 33-year-old journeyman electrician was electrocuted when he contacted an energized wire on the load side of the ballast (400 volts). 
*Synopsis of Events *The 34-year-old victim had been employed as a maintenance worker for 16 years with this employer. He had been assigned to work vacation relief on the third shift. At the time of the incident he was starting the last week of this three week assignment. 
As the victim entered the factory at approximately 11:00 p.m. he noticed an overhead fluorescent light was out. Since he was the only maintenance worker on the third shift, it was his responsibility to replace the ballast and fluorescent tubes. This was considered a routine task for the victim. After returning from the maintenance shop with new tubes and a ballast, he obtained a manlift to elevate himself 12 feet above the floor to a height where he could comfortably work on the light fixture. He removed the old tubes, metal shade, and a line fuse from the black wire which he assumed was the hot wire. The victim did not de-energize the conductor to the fluorescent lights. This could have been easily accomplished by disconnecting the twist out outlet box attached to the universal lighting duct or by removing the universal contact which was located beneath the metal fixture and which helps support the light fixture. He then cut all eight wires which were connected to the old ballast and started to strip insulation from the white wire. Apparently while holding the white wire in his left hand, he braced his left index finger against the metal structure supporting the light fixture. Holding the wire strippers in his right hand, the victim began to strip the insulation from the conductor. As he was stripping the insulation his metal wire stripper made contact with the hot conductor at the same time his left hand was braced against the metal structure. The victim received an electrical shock from the 277 volts which serviced the light fixture. 
A co-worker heard a noise, turned from her work station, and saw the victim laying face up on the platform of the manlift. She immediately summoned a nearby worker who lowered the platform and moved the victim onto the floor. Workers immediately began CPR and continued until the EMS arrived. The EMS attempted to revive the victim at the site for 30 minutes before transporting him to a local hospital. He was pronounced dead two hours later. 
*Synopsis of Events *At approximately 1:45 a.m., on August 12, 1986, two journeymen electricians were directed by the maintenance foreman to replace bulbs and make necessary electrical repairs to fluorescent light fixtures in an automobile spray paint booth. The spray booth is 50 feet long. The six foot long fixtures are mounted end to end on the ceiling to provide lighting for the full length of the spray booth. Several of the fixtures needed new sockets and ballasts. Replacement of these sockets and ballasts required the workers to climb on top of the spray booth and work from above the lighting fixtures. The top of the spray booth was congested with pipes and ducts that obstructed visibility and restricted work space and movement. The pipes and ducts made it difficult to assume a balanced, comfortable, or stable posture when working on the roof of the spray booth. Inadequate lighting above the spray booth required the use of flashlights. 
The electricians decided to start at opposite ends of the spray booth. There were no witnesses to the accident, but the electrician who was working at the other end of the spray booth stated that he was momentarily distracted when he saw a flash of light, "similar to a cigarette lighter." He continued to work for approximately five minutes and then climbed down and walked to the other end of the booth to retrieve some wire from a tool cart. While cutting wire at the tool cart he smelled a burning odor. He called to the other electrician on the roof of the spray booth, but received no reply. He then climbed up the ladder where he found the victim in contact with a single strand wire from the secondary side of the ballast on one of the fluorescent lights. Needle nose wire strippers were stuck in the left side of his chest. (It is assumed that the victim was stripping insulation from an improperly grounded 530 volt energized single strand wire on the secondary side of the ballast when he contacted the exposed wire.) The electricians were aware that they were working on energized fixtures. However, the breakers within the control panel were not labeled and the lock used for lockout/tagout was inoperable. 
*Synopsis of Events *On August 1, 1995, a 36-year-old electrician's helper was electrocuted after cutting an electrical wire carrying 460 volts. The incident occurred in a retail store fitting room where the victim and a co-worker were replacing the overhead florescent light tubes and ballast transformers. The victim had set up a fiberglass ladder in a fitting room and was standing on it as he cut a wire with an insulated wire cutter. As he cut the live wire, he contacted the energized metal cutter while leaning against the grounded metal fitting room door frame. A co-worker saw the victim being shocked and broke the contact by clipping the wire, at which time the victim collapsed against the door frame. NJDOH FACE investigators concluded that, in order to prevent similar incidents in the future, these safety guidelines should be followed:


*Employers should ensure that company lock-out/tag-out procedures are strictly enforced.*
*Only properly trained and authorized employees should be permitted to work on live electrical circuits.*
*All electrical workers should be trained in electrical rescue techniques and cardio-pulmonary resuscitation (CPR).*


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

:yes:God, just make this a poll already:yes:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

BBQ said:


> That is for all electrocutions in the work place.
> 
> Here is how it breaks down by trade. As you can see even those with electrical training come in at spots 1 and 3.
> 
> ...


But they are saying that everday someone is killed by an arc fault??? Show us!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

bobelectric said:


> But they are saying that everday someone is killed by an arc fault??? Show us!
> 
> 
> O
> ...



I am not sure what you are asking but here http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/98-131/ is where the info comes from.


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## Abcanfield (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow, I just changed 20 ballasts and 9 tomb stones today on 277v lights @
large wholesale club. Yes, _I did it hot. The store wasn't open, but i prefer to work it hot so that I can determine if its a bad ballast or just a bulb._


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## Foestauf (Jan 5, 2011)

Abcanfield said:


> Wow, I just changed 20 ballasts and 9 tomb stones today on 277v lights @
> large wholesale club. Yes, I did it hot. The store wasn't open, but i prefer to work it hot so that I can determine if its a bad ballast or just a bulb.


Grats? It is obvious you have much larger nuts then any of us.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

I just completed OSHA 30, and have also taken both OSHA 10 and NFPA70E.These comments by alleged electrical professionals,who think that their beliefs/feelings/past experiences somehow trump safety standards and rules,exactly prove Bobs' point in making this poll.

I'll admit,I was initially put off years ago,when increased safety regulations began coming to the forefront in our industry,but I grudgingly accepted,then warmed to them ,and finally embraced them.The whole point is to transfer the risk away from you and I.My goal is to get out of this thing alive and intact,after earning my wages over a 30-35 year career,not prove I am a man, others are pussys, by taking foolish risks to earn increased profits for the boss because I'm willing to take risks others will not.

My electrician father spent nearly two years out of work in the early 70's due to a preventable incident.My brother ,recently retired from our trade,passed 32 years incident free.I'm at the 25 year mark,and though I've done plenty of ignorant stupid things in the past,hope to improve my odds.In the OSHA 30 class I just completed, I was the only one of twelve who did not have tinnitus(ringing in the ears)because I've always worn hearing protection.Some of these bold sparkys were only 5-10 years into their careers.

My two sons are now in this trade as apprentices, and I want them to make it to retirement.If they have to work for very many guys like some of YOU cowboys, pressuring them into unsafe work practices, they may be in trouble.Thank God, and OSHA, and common sense, that your kind is becoming less and less welcome in our industry, by Contractors, Insurance Companies, Customers, and fellow tradesmen.Poor safety practices put each of these groups at risk,including the idiots that the safety regs. are are primarily designed to protect.

Edit note - Here is an example of the attitude that gets people -often others - hurt or killed:

"Yea get the Boss fined so he goes out of business and puts you in the unemployement line."

Better that he go out of business(not likely) than me or someone else go to the hospital or morgue.
I keep in my wallet the number to the nearby OSHA field office, and they do respond quickly,rest assured.


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## ibuzzard (Dec 28, 2008)

Abcanfield said:


> Wow, I just changed 20 ballasts and 9 tomb stones today on 277v lights @
> large wholesale club. Yes, _I did it hot._


Wow,what a man.


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## rearaf1 (Dec 20, 2010)

*Change Ballast*

Billy T, I think you are missing the point. I have also replaced thousands of ballast with the power on and I never got hurt either; but that does not make it right or safe. Before my Company hired a full time Safety Director about five years ago and made safety our number one priority for both the Company and for our employees, we did a lot of electrical work "hot". No one ever got killed, so why stop working electrical projects hot? It is so much cheaper and faster for the Company to just leave the power on and work it hot, right, so why should we care? Because a good Company cares about it's employees; and it only takes one slip of your kliens or one time that you look away from your work to talk to someone, and you get hit. And it does not matter if it is 120 or 277, it will make you jerk. One of my employees did exactly that, and when he jerked, he fell off his ladder. He only fell about four or five feet, but he landed on his elbow and shattered it. He could have fallen on his neck and broke it. Back in the 70's and 80's when I worked in the field, production was the number one priority for most Companies. I was young and cocky and thought I could work anything hot and usually did. I am just glad I didn't slip or look away for that split second; because that is all it takes. So listen to some good advise; for you, your family, your loved ones, and your employer and "turn the power off". Remember "it only takes that one mistake with electricity to change your life FOREVER".


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## BIMsparky (May 10, 2013)

Foestauf said:


> Yeah +1 to disconnect. I used to change them out hot everyday. After awhile you learn what is just not worth doing.


Nope. Though I too have done it many many times it just isn't a safe practice unless you have the quick disconnects like others have said... I decided to stop doing them hot when I removed a cover, the wires fell down (a bunch of extra length was stuffed in there) I put my hand up to catch them and got bit because the dullard that stuffed the thing full also twisted a wire nut on so tight the conductors were poking through the end, exposed. 277 but I didn't get hung up, just bit.


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## seige (Apr 22, 2013)

This thread has honestly change my opinions of things! Almost throughout my time in the trade i have always been told to work hot. It's only 120 etc etc. Heck my first couple months in the trade the journeyman i worked with had me locate breakers by tripping out whatever i was working on :blink: .I have probably changed hundreds if not thousands of ballasts hot. I honestly never knew it was that dangerous.

I am still kind of torn on the ballast disconnects though as it allows unskilled workers (janitors and maintenance guys) to do our job. It does definitely make it safer for everyone.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

seige said:


> This thread has honestly change my opinions of things! Almost throughout my time in the trade i have always been told to work hot. It's only 120 etc etc. Heck my first couple months in the trade the journeyman i worked with had me locate breakers by tripping out whatever i was working on :blink: .I have probably changed hundreds if not thousands of ballasts hot. I honestly never knew it was that dangerous.
> 
> I am still kind of torn on the ballast disconnects though as it allows unskilled workers (janitors and maintenance guys) to do our job. It does definitely make it safer for everyone.


That's why they put that in the code."Cleaning company lobbyists".:no:


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## smiley64 (Mar 25, 2013)

Not unless fixture disconects are in place. Offer to locate and label all circuits if that will help and use fixture disonnects.


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## Blue (Nov 28, 2010)

I have done 120vac ballast changes hot. Would never do 277v hot. I belong to a local electrical association and we recently had a safety seminar. It changed my opinion of working hot.


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

Done it a 1000 thousand times, <Used to do light refits> I don't think about it, I have gotten used to doing it that way, is it safe? is it legal? nope. I was trained by the "Cowboys", I guess "old school" around here. I finished up my OSHA 10 a last year, and everything..I mean everything I have been doing the last 20 yrs is wrong. I am trying to adapt to the new rules, sometimes, I still say "move I got this" and jump into something that is very bad. I know Electricity at any voltage will kill you. I know falling at any height can kill. I knew that 20 years ago. the process to complete the same work has become complicated. 
Will I tell anyone to open a CT can that is live? nope..will I let anyone work anything "hot" if I can help it nope. Will I.. depends, how how safe I can make it, for myself, and I don't want anyone in the area. 
I guess I have the attitude, when God calls you home.. you go LOLOL.
Do I have burns, yes.. have I been hit, yes. does my left shoulder bother me on cold mornings, my knees and back yes. I was trained by a different type of electrician, I try to teach my guys the new way of doing things. Besides if you get into something and your hands shake a little..means your still alive.
I might be called a idiot, or crazy, or heck even banned.


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