# Bonding metal parts around hot tub



## Noway (Mar 16, 2011)

I have a hot tub on the roof deck (outside) with metal gutter, flashing, hose bib and planter all within 5 ft. How do you bond all these together? What kind of fittings are available for the purpose? They have to be UL listed and rated to be used outside.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

You certainly need to bond the water pipe (hose bib), but not the roof. The gutter only if it is connected to earth. The planter also-- is it metal and connected to earth?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You certainly need to bond the water pipe (hose bib), but not the roof. The gutter only if it is connected to earth. The planter also-- is it metal and connected to earth?


 

Where do you get the language "connected to earth"


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Where do you get the language "connected to earth"


I would imagine it means having lights punched out and laying on the ground.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Where do you get the language "connected to earth"


The code does not mention connection to earth. To me this is some strange stuff. The 2011 has changed this section to clarify that awnings, doors, windows, etc must be bonded if they are within 5 feet of a tub. It is absurd-- should every nail in the siding be bonded?

The interesting thing is MH did a video on this and specifically talked about one of the people in his group that had a pool and the EI made the EC bond the roof and gutter. Mike laughed at how ridiculous that was but it is clear in 2011. I had forgotten that they made this change.

I guess the thinking is that the roof can get energized somehow and this could be dangerous to someone near the pool.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The code does not mention connection to earth. To me this is some strange stuff. The 2011 has changed this section to clarify that awnings, doors, windows, etc must be bonded if they are within 5 feet of a tub. It is absurd-- should every nail in the siding be bonded?
> 
> The interesting thing is MH did a video on this and specifically talked about one of the people in his group that had a pool and the EI made the EC bond the roof and gutter. Mike laughed at how ridiculous that was but it is clear in 2011. I had forgotten that they made this change.
> 
> I guess the thinking is that the roof can get energized somehow and this could be dangerous to someone near the pool.


 

No, the theory is that the water can be at a difference of potential than ANYTHING metal around it. 5ft is probably a guess as to about how far a splash goes.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, the theory is that the water can be at a difference of potential than ANYTHING metal around it. 5ft is probably a guess as to about how far a splash goes.


How is something not connected to earth going to be a problem. It will not be an issue unless the roof where energized. It has nothing to do with a splash but the fact that you may be able to reach the roof with you feet in the water.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> How is something not connected to earth going to be a problem. It will not be an issue unless the roof where energized. It has nothing to do with a splash but the fact that you may be able to reach the roof with you feet in the water.


I agree.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> How is something not connected to earth going to be a problem. It will not be an issue unless the roof where energized. It has nothing to do with a splash but the fact that you may be able to reach the roof with you feet in the water.


 
I'm OPPOSITE of you, it's more dangerous if it's NOT connected to earth. That leaves it at a greater chance of being a different potential than the water.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm OPPOSITE of you, it's more dangerous if it's NOT connected to earth. That leaves it at a greater chance of being a different potential than the water.


If you have some spare time you should watch this video on stray voltage

It is really long so you may want to slide the bar up to 47 minutes and 24 sec. It is on pools-- It is about 30 minutes long


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## IBEW191 (Apr 4, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm OPPOSITE of you, it's more dangerous if it's NOT connected to earth. That leaves it at a greater chance of being a different potential than the water.


 Just read in the paper about a guy digging a hole that was full if water, put his hand on the side of the house and got electrocuted. He was an maintenance worker for an orchard I believe. The siding on the house was energized needless to say.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm OPPOSITE of you, it's more dangerous if it's NOT connected to earth. That leaves it at a greater chance of being a different potential than the water.


I am wondering what you are saying. Are you saying that a guttering system, or roofing system should be grounded? Just asking.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> I am wondering what you are saying. Are you saying that a guttering system, or roofing system should be grounded? Just asking.


 
I'm saying , Dennis' language of "if it's earthed, it should be bonded" makes no sense to me. In fact, it's completely opposite of the reason for bonding. If it was truly "earthed", there would be less reason to bond it than something that is isolated. An isolated piece of metal is more of a danger than a piece of metal that is "earthed"


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm saying , Dennis' language of "if it's earthed, it should be bonded" makes no sense to me. In fact, it's completely opposite of the reason for bonding. If it was truly "earthed", there would be less reason to bond it than something that is isolated. An isolated piece of metal is more of a danger than a piece of metal that is "earthed"


Maybe he meant that if it was in close proximity to earth it should be bonded...who knows. Bottom line is that there is a difference between bonding and grounding. Grounding IS earthing to ground via a rod or such. Its only purpose is to protect an electrical system against an unusual surge of some sort. Bonding is a different animal.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Maybe he meant that if it was in close proximity to earth it should be bonded...who knows. Bottom line is that there is a difference between bonding and grounding. Grounding IS earthing to ground via a rod or such. Its only purpose is to protect an electrical system against an unusual surge of some sort. Bonding is a different animal.


 

Yes, and I have no idea why you threw the word grounding into your last post. I have seen entire metal buildings that are built on wooden poles, and had energized siding. What would happen if there was a pool 5' away, and someone touched the two? What would have happened if the metal building had been bonded to the pool bonds? What would have happened if the metal building was grounded to an electrode? Still would have been less current flow between the two points, than being isolated. Yours and his thinking seems backwards, but I certainly might be wrong.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, and I have no idea why you threw the word grounding into your last post. I have seen entire metal buildings that are built on wooden poles, and had energized siding. What would happen if there was a pool 5' away, and someone touched the two? What would have happened if the metal building had been bonded to the pool bonds? What would have happened if the metal building was grounded to an electrode? Still would have been less current flow between the two points, than being isolated. Yours and his thinking seems backwards, but I certainly might be wrong.


I won't say you are wrong. I will say that if a metal building...built on wooden poles was energized, it can only be so because a phase conductor is shorted to the metal.


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Noway said:


> I have a hot tub on the roof deck (outside) with metal gutter, flashing, hose bib and planter all within 5 ft. How do you bond all these together? What kind of fittings are available for the purpose? They have to be UL listed and rated to be used outside.


Nut and bolt a lug to the metal gutter, flashing and planter and a j-jr to the hose bib and run a #8 green solid between all and bonding bar on spa equipment.


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## Noway (Mar 16, 2011)

Service Call said:


> Nut and bolt a lug to the metal gutter, flashing and planter and a j-jr to the hose bib and run a #8 green solid between all and bonding bar on spa equipment.


Thank you. I was thinking I might have to use some lugs. What's j-jr?


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

A j-jr is a clamp that is used on water pipes and ground rods to connect a ground wire to. It's a two piece clamp with a port for a conductor to be secured.


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