# Stapling slows me down



## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

Seems like I spend too much time stapling cable. I need some tips to help me staple faster. How can I staple faster?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Don't wire new houses.


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

MTW said:


> Don't wire new houses.


I wish that I didn't have to. I hate dealing with these tight ass home builders.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Get a laborer to do it for you. That's pretty much all you find around here. One guy who speaks a little bit of English and knows a little bit about roping new houses leading the laborers.


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Get a laborer to do it for you. That's pretty much all you find around here. One guy who speaks a little bit of English and knows a little bit about roping new houses leading the laborers.


I want to keep all the money.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Haley said:


> I want to keep all the money.


That's not the right attitude for a business owner.

You will make more money by paying someone who can do something better than you, especially if he's doing menial labor while you are focusing on more important work and business.


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## NormousD (Nov 12, 2017)

If I only made money off my own labour.. I might as well just be an employee. I would probably wind up making more, having less stress and get more benefits.

Businesses need employees to actually make REAL money. Maybe you're not meant to be in business for yourself?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

We rough houses by having one lead guy and two 1st year apprentices. It's in complete violation of our labor laws (must have one apprentice per journeyman) and it carries a $500 fine if caught but everyone operates this way and it's what you have to do to be competitive.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Staple faster. Are you finding you bend them over and have to pull and restaple?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This is what I had my kid do when he wanted to try out electrical work. I got an 8 ft treated 4x4 from City Mill and a pail of 1/2'' staples from Home Depot and a new 16 ounce hammer for him, some 12-2romex and I set him on that 4x4 for a couple of 3 hours while I sat in my office nearby and worked on a set of plans. He started out as to be expected from someone who never swung a hammer or drove a staple on wire, but after some time he was pretty good at it. Just takes practice. And the wood now has a lot more knots than when I started out in the trades some forty+ years ago. (by the way, he is running a few jobs now for the union company he works at, pipe bending........).


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

There's really two options, avoid stapling, or get better at stapling, you're asking about the latter. I don't like staples or stapling so I try to avoid them but if you have to get better it's not that hard. 

I think having the right hammer helps. IMO anything over 16 ounces is a bad choice for staples. You don't need much force, you can drive staples with a pair of pliers, you can almost drive them with your thumb. I have a couple big milled face framing hammers with hatchet style handles, I can just about drive a spike in one shot with these, but for staples I'd rather use a little pocket sized hammer. 

You must be very secure in your masculinity to use a small hammer. Explain to people that it turns out that's all a strong man needs when they're not compensating with their hammer. 

It's almost something nobody talks about any more but there is some technique to using a hammer. I tried explaining it three times but it's pretty hard to type out. Basically the way I was taught, it's important that your upper arm sits more or less still, most of the movement at the elbow. It's actually pretty tough to get in a good position nailing low on a stud. 

Finally, best for last, the main thing is don't be a perfectionist about staples, I am a perfectionist about too many things but even I am not a moron about staples. Don't worry about getting it so you could slide a piece of paper between the cable and the staple but not a piece of cardboard. Leave them loose. When they're in far enough you can't pick them out with your fingers, declare victory and move on to the next staple. Overdriven staples are a common major problem, underdriven staples aren't a thing.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> We rough houses by having one lead guy and two 1st year apprentices. It's in complete violation of our labor laws (must have one apprentice per journeyman) and it carries a $500 fine if caught but everyone operates this way and *it's what you have to do to be competitive.*


I beg to differ MT

Operating dishonestly , and further openly admitting to breaking the_ laws _of our trade to do so is _not _being competitive 
:no:
It's due to the fact that your company needs to _lower itself_ to such tactics because it _can't _compete
:no:

~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Steve, bending and breaking the law is just the way it goes, all successful businesses do it. Part of many company's budgets are fines and lawyers fees because they know it's advantageous to break the law and then pay those.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> I beg to differ MT
> 
> Operating dishonestly , and further openly admitting to breaking the_ laws _of our trade to do so is _not _being competitive
> :no:
> ...


Get off your high horse. You're in no position to assume a moral high ground on _anything. _

Apprentice to jman ratios are arbitrarily created rules that I have absolutely no problem violating. The cripple business and competition. They do not take into account apprentice aptitude. Some apprentices don't need to be watched, others do. Furthermore, roughing new houses is not rocket science either.

But by all means, please tell me how superior you are in every way.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Haley said:


> Seems like I spend too much time stapling cable. I need some tips to help me staple faster. How can I staple faster?


Here's how i'd suggest a new rough out>>>
*1)*
Establish your panel area, take a laser if you have one and drill out the basement (assuming a whole house rough) using a short 2" bit. 
Create a run of holes as perfectly straight as possible, use a laser and/or mark out the runs to be as neat as possible. Start 4-5 runs (depending on the project size) closer to the panel about 6" apart, they can decrease to one run at either end of the basement. You may want to ask the PM or GC just how much you can 'ventilate' these rafters, especially if they're lammys.


*2)*
Lay out and box all receptacle , switches , lighting locations according to your prints, customer, GC, or whatever directives you may have 

*3)*
Drill out all necessary avenues between these and the main panel HR' avenues. Horizontal runs should all be either above or below device boxes , the hole being code sanctioned as a means of securing wire entering them via 334. Drill all switch locations to accommodate _up's_ and _down's_ liberally 

*4)*
Stack all switch locations accordingly, Stack all lateral paths back to your main HR basement paths , Here is where you may need to increase the rows of stackers as they get closer to the panel area , possibly 3-4 rows as it closes in on it.

*5)*
Troff above your panel. Use a good 6x6 by 24" , pepper the top with 1/2 dz. 2" sch40 pvc sleeves under 24" , just enough to get close to the ceiling Install a big old G-bar in said troffer using 1/4-20 threaded hardware to elevate it above the troff lip toward the front of it 

*6)*
Keep your staples in the van

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> *5)*
> Troff above your panel. Use a good 6x6 by 24" , pepper the top with 1/2 dz. 2" sch40 pvc sleeves under 24" , just enough to get close to the ceiling Install a big old G-bar in said troffer using 1/4-20 threaded hardware to elevate it above the troff lip toward the front of it


Horrible idea. Nobody does that in residential. If you did you would be laughed at. It's completely unnecessary.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Get off your high horse. You're in no position to assume a moral high ground on _anything. _
> 
> Apprentice to jman ratios are arbitrarily created rules that I have absolutely no problem violating. The cripple business and competition. They do not take into account apprentice aptitude. Some apprentices don't need to be watched, others do. Furthermore, roughing new houses is not rocket science either.
> 
> But by all means, please tell me how superior you are in every way.


Why do sorts like you come to a pro forum, when _nothing_ about operating as one seems important to you is rather _vexing_ MT

Maybe your company needs a _dime_ dropped on it for you to figure this out

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> Horrible idea. Nobody does that in residential. If you did you would be laughed at. It's completely unnecessary.


Staple lite idea, which the OP is asking for

and it looks >neat and workmanlike<

YMMV:whistling2:

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Why do sorts like you come to a pro forum, when _nothing_ about operating as one seems important to you is rather _vexing_ MT


Seriously just shut up. Stop with this holier than thou crap. I don't buy your act. I describe how things work in the real world. You can pretend that you're perfect and never break the rules, but that would make you a liar. :thumbsup:





> Maybe your company needs a _dime_ dropped on it for you to figure this out
> 
> ~CS~


My boss has been caught before, he pays the fine and life goes on as usual.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Nice

so now that you've (yet again) established yourself as _hubris_ , there's really no point of acknowledging you pursuant to a fruitful discussion among _pros_

seriously, leave it in the CT section MT

~CS~


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## trentonmakes (Mar 21, 2017)

Haley said:


> Seems like I spend too much time stapling cable. I need some tips to help me staple faster. How can I staple faster?


My boss says to staple at start of the run...pull it tight and put staple at the end.

I tried that, and on longer runs it droops and i have to go back and put a couple more in the middle. Seems longer and more difficult this way to me.

I drive a staple every 3-5 feet or however long i can get away with without drooping.
Pull it tight and set staple snug...not really tight or really loose.


Texting and Driving


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Nice
> 
> so now that you've (yet again) established yourself as _hubris_ , there's really no point of acknowledging you pursuant to a fruitful discussion among _pros_
> 
> ...


I have no regard for anti-business laws. 

But again, please continue to judge because we all know that you're as pure as the driven snow. :no::no:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:blink::blink:Interesting. I see.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Staple lite idea, which the OP is asking for
> 
> and it looks >neat and workmanlike<
> 
> ...



Adding a trough adds a huge amount of unnecessary labor and serves no purpose. It's easy enough to install the cables directly into the panel neatly.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

MTW...

Have you actually SEEN Chicken's craft work ?

Troughs, my eye.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Ah, no.... troffers _decrease_ labor & _increase _neatness 

That we only run a #4CU from troffer to panel decreases panel spaghetti effect *1/3*

It also provides what is far easier accessibility for new introductions, as well as maintenance issues

That said, the same 2" multiple entry method could occur w/o a troffer, you'd find that a few 2" KO tins may be needed due to all the 1/2" KO's being punched through....but the staple-less effect should be similar

The OP asks for less '_staple time_' , which i have forwarded my methods for

*YMMV*
:whistling2:
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

telsa said:


> MTW...
> 
> Have you actually SEEN Chicken's craft work ?
> 
> Troughs, my eye.


I am still in the field

and i DO work

and i DO evolve my methods

ergo, your serve sir!

~CS~


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## cdslotz (Jun 10, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Get a laborer to do it for you. That's pretty much all you find around here. One guy who speaks a little bit of English and knows a little bit about roping new houses leading the laborers.



Ro-Mexicans..


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

HackWork said:


> Steve, bending and breaking the law is just the way it goes, all successful businesses do it. Part of many company's budgets are fines and lawyers fees because they know it's advantageous to break the law and then pay those.


Yep. When we do jobs that don’t have a general building permit, I don’t permit my work. Three un-caught water heaters equals the fine of getting caught unpermitted, and that’s just the permit, forget time waiting for inspector and especially if they want something needless done to make them happy.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

MTW said:


> We rough houses by having one lead guy and two 1st year apprentices. It's in complete violation of our labor laws (must have one apprentice per journeyman) and it carries a $500 fine if caught but everyone operates this way and it's what you have to do to be competitive.


the way to avoid the penalties of this is having the apprentices trade off on the actual work and note taking.
apprenticing is a learning stage. (all can clean up site and transport tools and materials)(prepping and cleanup is a major consumption of time)
when i train on a machine at work i may have two or three apprentices at any one time, one performs the tasks and the other two are taking notes
then trade off when we go to the next machine.
I am there to instruct and observe their performance
I also regularly review their notes
(and yes even though they are taking notes and observing they still must follow lock out/tag out procedures and apply their own locks)

I know its not an efficient use of manpower but it allows me to train multiple apprentices at the same time so what i lose from one standpoint i gain multiple times in the long run
less time is spent in the overall training than what you would have to do individually and all apprentices receive the exact same training.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

matt1124 said:


> Yep. When we do jobs that don’t have a general building permit, I don’t permit my work. Three un-caught water heaters equals the fine of getting caught unpermitted, and that’s just the permit, forget time waiting for inspector and especially if they want something needless done to make them happy.


That's a good example.

Another one is delivery companies in cities like New York. They pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in parking fines because it's cheaper than paying for parking and then walking the further distance. They put those fines into their selling prices and happily break the law and pay since it benefits them.


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## Peter Goldwing (Sep 23, 2011)

Dont know if anyone said it; pay attention what staples you buy, There are some thick ones at HD hard to drive in. Skinny and very pointed, you need.Try to get used not to hit the staple more than twice.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If the punishment justifies the crime, then we all may as well hang it up and become criminals fellas.

~CS~


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Use these, problem solved.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> If the punishment justifies the crime, then we all may as well hang it up and become criminals fellas.
> 
> ~CS~


As usual. your argument is nonsensical.

Some punishments are worth the benefit of the crime. That is a fact that you can't deny. And you can't deny that it is done as a part of many businesses.

But that does NOT mean that all crimes are worth the punishment like you just said.

Why can't you ever act like a normal person?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> As usual. your argument is nonsensical.
> 
> Some punishments are worth the benefit of the crime. That is a fact that you can't deny. And you can't deny that it is done as a part of many businesses.
> 
> ...


Exactly. The $500 fine is small price to pay to get a large competitive advantage, especially when practically every EC in my area is operating out of ratio. And that's if you even get caught. It's just the way it is. Steve can pretend that he is perfect all day long but we know who he really is.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I believe the OP is asking for staple _lite_ suggestions , now if you two are interested in responding with an NEC means to do so _legally_ , i'm sure it'll fit nicely here

thx
:thumbsup:
~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I believe the OP is asking for staple _lite_ suggestions , now if you two are interested in responding with an NEC means to do so _legally_ , i'm sure it'll fit nicely here
> 
> thx
> :thumbsup:
> ~CS~


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

MTW said:


> Exactly. The $500 fine is small price to pay to get a large competitive advantage, especially when practically every EC in my area is operating out of ratio. And that's if you even get caught. It's just the way it is. Steve can pretend that he is perfect all day long but we know who he really is.


And as you said earlier, the ratio is arbitrary and differs across jurisdictions. Here I think we're allowed 2 or 3 apprentices per journeyman (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So you doing as you do is illegal and creates an unsafe condition, but elsewhere it's perfectly fine? Don't make much sense to me. 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

The mechanics of banging staples isn't a time eater. Plan your routes, place your reels in the right spots, decide on whether holes are better than staples and run the cable where it's easy to staple. Too often we concentrate on one thing that we think slows us down when it really doesn't matter. A smart tradesman will beat a speed demon always.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

And then when you get old you say 'F' it. "I'm not in a hurry anymore".


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## Haley (Oct 3, 2017)

matt1124 said:


> Staple faster. Are you finding you bend them over and have to pull and restaple?


Yes. Constantly


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

B-Nabs said:


> And as you said earlier, the ratio is arbitrary and differs across jurisdictions. Here I think we're allowed 2 or 3 apprentices per journeyman (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So you doing as you do is illegal and creates an unsafe condition, but elsewhere it's perfectly fine? Don't make much sense to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


In Canada a 1-1/2" drainpipe is fine for a shower but in America if you don't use a 2" pipe your shower stall will DEFINITELY flood. These invisible lines not only change code and safety, but basic science too.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

HackWork said:


> In Canada a 1-1/2" drainpipe is fine for a shower but in America if you don't use a 2" pipe your shower stall will DEFINITELY flood. These invisible lines not only change code and safety, but basic science too.


2” minimum in slab for drains here. Made a freestanding bathtub really difficult. Next time, after rough inspection, 2” comes out and 1.5 back in...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

B-Nabs said:


> And as you said earlier, the ratio is arbitrary and differs across jurisdictions. Here I think we're allowed 2 or 3 apprentices per journeyman (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So you doing as you do is illegal and creates an unsafe condition, but elsewhere it's perfectly fine? Don't make much sense to me.


It makes no sense at all, which is why I have no issue at all with ratios being broken.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

telsa said:


> MTW...
> 
> Have you actually SEEN Chicken's craft work ?
> 
> Troughs, my eye.


A few times, and it made for years of laughter. In fact, a whole alternative forum thrived on making fun of his work.


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

How do count ratios in residential track work? Uno, dos, tres?

I've got bigger problems to worry about. I just ripped my only screen, I don't have any papers in the van and I can't remember where I left my bat.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

cabletie said:


> How do count ratios in residential track work? Uno, dos, tres?


We don't. :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

@CharlieCarcinogen didn't care about the rules either.


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## electricguy (Mar 22, 2007)

cdslotz said:


> Ro-Mexicans..


I wonder who created that term


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Haley said:


> Seems like I spend too much time stapling cable. I need some tips to help me staple faster. How can I staple faster?


up here in New England in Massachusetts most houses have strapping so you can staple to bottom of floor joists but the condos I sometimes wire do not.

Also, in Massachusetts we have amendment to NEC that allows us to have wires within 3/4" back from studs instead of 1-1/4".

Anyway. don't individually staple down to multigang boxes use staples and tiewraps or stand offs.

When I have long runs of one cable like smoke detector 14-3 I loosely staple as I go pulling the the wire through the previous staples and when done just pull it tight and staple last and maybe another one so it looks level and neat but it's an illusion 

It's all smoke and mirrors. you try to wire everything neat and straight so the inspector doesn't look around.


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Dark Knight said:


> Use these, problem solved.


Massachusetts requires insulated and all the staple guns are rated for one cable I think


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## farmantenna (Nov 22, 2012)

Dark Knight said:


> Use these, problem solved.


txt
d


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

farmantenna said:


> It's all smoke and mirrors. you try to wire everything neat and straight so the inspector doesn't look around.


:thumbsup:

Yep. Works too.


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