# Resi panels



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Oh no. Now you've done it. 

Some people will complain about the exposed NM cable. Some parts of the U.S. don't allow that. Some do. Obviously it's no problem in Canada.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Lol, were ok to expose nmd above 5 feet. No problem with that here.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

arni19 said:


> Lol, were ok to expose nmd above 5 feet. No problem with that here.


If that panel is mounted to code with no breaker higher than 1.7m then that NMD probably isn't all higher than 5' 

Just givin ya a hard time looks good. The PVC straps are kinda different but only an electrician would notice that


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

Looks good. I have used pvc straps and 2 hole emt straps too. Also don't see a problem with the height of the NMD. 
Around here, we are not allowed to bring our conduit into the top plate of the panel. Either come in the back, or else a 90 degree elbow (no fittings allowed)


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

I have a couple pictures of panel tie ins ( done by other EC's) from a couple show homes in the area i will post when i get time to upload


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Looks very good nice work....:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

arni19 said:


> How do you tie in your resi panels? Critics..?? Show and share and critisize...


 

Looks good to me, but some inspectors may want all cables stapled individually.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

How many NM cables are going into each connector?

Most NM cable connects are only listed for connecting 2 NM cables.

Chris


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

Very neat work, but fails in Oregon. NEC 334.15(B) and (C) and Oregon Electrical Specialty Code 334.15(B): Exposed non-metallic sheathed cable shall be protected where it is installed horizontally less than 8 feet above the floor. Exposed non-metallic sheathed cable less that 8 feet above the floor that enters the top or bottom of a panel board shall be protected from physical damage by conduit, raceway, 1/2 in plywood, or 1/2 in drywall.

Sorry....I got a bit code-nerdy there:no: It's an affliction.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Looks good! Is that 2" PVC offset coming in the top? And no strap on the 2"?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Very neat work. Personally I would prefer the wires coming into the top of the panel to keep the wall clear. I also agree with Chris that you have too many wires in your connectors-- big deal-- I know.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Nice and neat work, 

I agree with dennis, on side entry. Top and bottom entry is cleaner, with no 90 bends on all those wires, as they head to the busses.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

The OP is in Canada. They can't enter the panel from the service entrance side. Perhaps in Canada the connectors are rated for the amount of cables hes putting in them?


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Very neat work. Personally I would prefer the wires coming into the top of the panel to keep the wall clear. I also agree with Chris that you have too many wires in your connectors-- big deal-- I know.


 Dennis...... we can't come into the top of the panels here. Main breaker is in the top section, with a barrier between.



Nitro 71 beat me to it.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

B T W, Dennis, I preferred your Ray Charles avatar.:notworthy:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

oldtimer said:


> Dennis...... we can't come into the top of the panels here. Main breaker is in the top section, with a barrier between.
> 
> 
> 
> Nitro 71 beat me to it.


 

Makes sense then, How about codes for derating the amount of cables in the bundles ?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

dronai said:


> Makes sense then, How about codes for derating the amount of cables in the bundles ?


I agree but without a copy of a Canadian code book I really don't know..


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

That is a 2" factory offset on the pipe, the strap is just above on the floor truss ( by code we strap with in a meter of any joint or end point of the pipe) in canada its illegal to come into the top of the panel and maybe the picture isn't clear enough but there is a maximum of 2 wires in any one of those connectors, 2 is maximum in canada as well.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

I don't think I've ever seen a 2" PVC offset. That's pretty trick.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

How about bundling arni? We're all curious.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

As for derating of the cables in the bundle the inspectors let it slide around the panel only for a few feet. Most ec's are just making 1 bundle with every wire from house in it...


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Fabulous looking work. Free air bundling like that won't effect anything anyways.


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

nitro71 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a 2" PVC offset. That's pretty trick.


 We use offset terminal adaptors all the time.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

My panels pass inspection, this is a picture of a panel out of a show home done by someone else. It also passed inspection, imo this is an unpassable panel.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> B T W, Dennis, I preferred your Ray Charles avatar.:notworthy:


I can put him in that group... :thumbsup:


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## Jmohl (Apr 26, 2011)

As long as it meets code where ur at, good on ya! Looks good but like a few of the posters have mentioned, it may or may not pass muster here in the lower 48. :thumbsup:


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

Jsmit319 said:


> Very neat work, but fails in Oregon. NEC 334.15(B) and (C) and Oregon Electrical Specialty Code 334.15(B): Exposed non-metallic sheathed cable shall be protected where it is installed horizontally less than 8 feet above the floor. Exposed non-metallic sheathed cable less that 8 feet above the floor that enters the top or bottom of a panel board shall be protected from physical damage by conduit, raceway, 1/2 in plywood, or 1/2 in drywall.
> 
> Sorry....I got a bit code-nerdy there:no: It's an affliction.


Some would opine that that section can't be used since the cables are not entering the top or bottom of the panel.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Many locations in the US install panels outdoors and bring the cables in through the back thru a single KO.

These pics are from a service change/upgrade but new construction is the same.

Existing (circa 1979)











.











New.

.


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> Some would opine that that section can't be used since the cables are not entering the top or bottom of the panel.


 lol one of my cohorts said the same thing......Here's a phrase us inspectors, code analysts and armchair quarterbacks throw around.....The INTENT of the code (and specialty code)........ is to have the cables protected below 8 feet when they enter a panel. :thumbsup:


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

arni19 said:


> That is a 2" factory offset on the pipe, the strap is just above on the floor truss ( by code we strap with in a meter of any joint or end point of the pipe) *in canada its illegal to come into the top of the panel* and maybe the picture isn't clear enough but there is a maximum of 2 wires in any one of those connectors, 2 is maximum in canada as well.


Got a code reference for that?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

farlsincharge said:


> Got a code reference for that?


I don't believe there is a specific code reference for this. I could be wrong.
However as was explained to me many years ago, the inspectors allow a max of 4 conductors, ie 2 - 2 wire or 1 - 3 wire. The reasoning was 4-004. More wires in the connector would then require derating.
Then, I have seen installations were duplex connectors were used and 2 - 3 wires have been installed.
Basically just an installation practice that has been handed down over the years.
Mater of fact, I had an inspector call us on using a 2020 ( oops 4040 ) for 8/3 stove cable. Said we needed a L17, but he couldn't show me a code for it. Changed it anyway to keep him happy.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

wcord said:


> Looks good. I have used pvc straps and 2 hole emt straps too. Also don't see a problem with the height of the NMD.
> Around here, we are not allowed to bring our conduit into the top plate of the panel. Either come in the back, or else a 90 degree elbow (no fittings allowed)


Quoted the wrong person in the previous post. This is the quote I was after.

Who prohibits you from entering the top of the panel?


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

The code reference for # of cables in a connector would be covered under something like 2-024 Which says materials must be used for what they are approved for. The MFG's instructions/packaging/cut sheet will tell you what size/number of cables it is rated for.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

arni19 said:


>


As soon as I saw the Romex coming into the sides, I knew it had to be Canadian. Just never see that here.

I think it's done because they have their entrance conductors separated from the rest of the panel and nothing is allowed to run in that space.

-John


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Sorry i dont have a code reference, and i was unclear when i siad you cant come in the top, in canada we can come in the top of a panel there is no rule against it, we come in the top of commericial and sub panels all the time. The rule which i have no reference for is that you cannot run threw the service entrance ie.. The top portion of the panel where we terminate the service feeders.. In canada we have a metal divider between this area and the rest of the panel and they are very very strict on this in canada no exceptions. Also there was mention of an 8/3 in a 4004 connector im surprised that you'd jam that in there i will only use a 3/4" 2 screw metal connector for 8/3 or bigger. I will however jam a 10/3 into a 4004 no problem.


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

Jsmit319 said:


> lol one of my cohorts said the same thing......Here's a phrase us inspectors, code analysts and armchair quarterbacks throw around.....The INTENT of the code (and specialty code)........ is to have the cables protected below 8 feet when they enter a panel. :thumbsup:


Can't enforce intent, only the black and white. :icon_wink: I can see that interpretation, but it is poorly worded.

Or as my wife says "It's not what you say, but how you say it".


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## electures (Oct 23, 2008)

Looks nice. Two thoughts though.

1. Bending radius of romex is 5x diameter. Looks a little tight.

2. No more than two cables in a connector. 110.3b.

Also, derating shouldn't be a problem since you can derate from the 90 degree coloumn.

It's nice when electricians take a little pride in their work.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

farlsincharge said:


> Quoted the wrong person in the previous post. This is the quote I was after.
> 
> Who prohibits you from entering the top of the panel?


I am referring to the service entrance conduit.
Around here, the train of thought is that IF we were to bring the conduit and conductors into the top, there is the possibility that moisture could track down the conductor into the breaker. By coming into the back or side, we are "in theory" creating a drip loop.
We even have to drill a 1/4" hole in the bottom of our LB so that any moisture will escape.

And there may be some credence to this. Over the years, I have run into the odd main breaker which has had condensation, creating corrosion.
No fittings inside the building is to prevent some idiot from gaining access to the unfused conductors.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Do most of your Canadian panels not have a door on the cover?


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

randas said:


> The code reference for # of cables in a connector would be covered under something like 2-024 Which says materials must be used for what they are approved for. The MFG's instructions/packaging/cut sheet will tell you what size/number of cables it is rated for.


As per T&B website

Suggested Application: NMD90 (Loomex) 14/2-10/2; 14/3-10/3; 2 cables 14/2


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

The only residential panel with a door on the cover is the cutler hammer panels - which i what i use exclusively now, i previously used siemens panels but am now gettin really good pricing from cutler, as for the wires goin into the connectors i assure you there is no more then 2 cables in a connector, the cutler panela have knockouts stacked on top of eachother 2 deep so it may look like 4 cables are going into a connector but there not i wilk post a new picture showing this next week when im back at that house.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

arni19 said:


> The only residential panel with a door on the cover is the cutler hammer panels - which i what i use exclusively now, i previously used siemens panels but am now gettin really good pricing from cutler, as for the wires goin into the connectors i assure you there is no more then 2 cables in a connector, the cutler panela have knockouts stacked on top of eachother 2 deep so it may look like 4 cables are going into a connector but there not i wilk post a new picture showing this next week when im back at that house.


Don't get out much? Square D and Siemens have a door


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Not the ones i get in saskatchewan, the only square d i have worked with was in a commercial building they all had doors - obvious, i installed easily 60-90 siemens panels in houses - none of them had doors...


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

why in the world would someone cut in a panel like that......WHY.....Look at all the real estate you took up for no good reason...god forbid you want to add something on that board.....Just come in from the top and keep it clean...whats the point of all that ..?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

captkirk said:


> why in the world would someone cut in a panel like that......WHY.....Look at all the real estate you took up for no good reason...god forbid you want to add something on that board.....Just come in from the top and keep it clean...whats the point of all that ..?


They can't come in the top. They are Canadian panels and have a separate compartment for the service conductors.


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Peter D said:


> They can't come in the top. They are Canadian panels and have a separate compartment for the service conductors.


100% correct have no choice but to come in the sides.. When we show up to wire we require a 4x8 sheet of plywood mounted in the mechanical room. Space is not that big of an issue since plumbing an what not stays far as possible away from us so there is plenty of room to add whatever you'd like later.


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

wcord said:


> I am referring to the service entrance conduit.
> Around here, the train of thought is that IF we were to bring the conduit and conductors into the top, there is the possibility that moisture could track down the conductor into the breaker. By coming into the back or side, we are "in theory" creating a drip loop.
> We even have to drill a 1/4" hole in the bottom of our LB so that any moisture will escape.
> 
> ...


I am aware of the sealing and drainage requirements. It is not expressly prohibited though.

AFAIK the no fitting thing is just for the line side of the meter. I could be wrong on that though


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Peter D said:


> They can't come in the top. They are Canadian panels and have a separate compartment for the service conductors.


 oh never mind....


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

arni19 said:


> Not the ones i get in saskatchewan, the only square d i have worked with was in a commercial building they all had doors - obvious, i installed easily 60-90 siemens panels in houses - none of them had doors...


Odd 90% of square D panels have doors. Can't speak for siemens but I do know we have a pallet of 100A resi grade ones and they have doors


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

randas said:


> Odd 90% of square D panels have doors. Can't speak for siemens but I do know we have a pallet of 100A resi grade ones and they have doors


the 24 and 32's do, anything bigger doesn't. At least in my experience


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## arni19 (Nov 20, 2009)

Most houses were puttin 200a 40 cct panels in, ive never used a square d resi panel.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

captkirk said:


> why in the world would someone cut in a panel like that......WHY.....Look at all the real estate you took up for no good reason...god forbid you want to add something on that board.....Just come in from the top and keep it clean...whats the point of all that ..?


 Yeah once again it's Canada.We are not allowed to run any branch circuits into the main breaker compartment!


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