# New 200A service



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Nice looking work, Rod. It's interesting to see a IMC/RMC riser on resi work. We never see that in my area, unless it's a mast service. I am curious about one thing, though. Why do you (or the installer) choose to run the strut behind the meter can so long? 

I notice that it's a meter/main. Was the panel a good distance away? Did you all run PVC the whole way to the panel, or is that little bit of PVC outside just sleeving some SER?


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Nice looking work, Rod. It's interesting to see a IMC/RMC riser on resi work. We never see that in my area, unless it's a mast service. I am curious about one thing, though. Why do you (or the installer) choose to run the strut behind the meter can so long?
> 
> I notice that it's a meter/main. Was the panel a good distance away? Did you all run PVC the whole way to the panel, or is that little bit of PVC outside just sleeving some SER?


Reason for the strut longer than the can is that you can attach the can to the springnuts while it is on the ground. Also so you can get it good and centered and then you can lift the whole thing up and tapcon it to the wall using that extra bit of strut sticking out. To me it seems quicker than trying to get your strut perfectly centered on the wall. 

The panel was right on the other side of the wall, the PVC ran right into the panel. It was right there on the other side of the wall. 

Normally we'll try to go into the back of the panel if it's there in the basement. If it's not, and it's further away, we'll sleeve some SE cable through the wall untill we can get it into the floor joists at which time we clamp the se cable till the panel.

All new services we do basically follow this same template. I can't remember the last service we did without running RMC.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Wow. I'm surprised to even see metal conduit there, let alone rigid. I would have used SEU cable there, although I don't use it that much. I like 2" PVC80 for risers.

Is the metal riser code in your area? 
Is the outside disco code?


Rod, does that upper window pane open? Looks a bit close. I might have gone higher with the point and weather head.


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## Hillbilly (Mar 20, 2007)

That looks pretty good Rod.:thumbsup: 

Thats pretty much how we do 'em here. I like that idea of the unistrut.


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Wow. I'm surprised to even see metal conduit there, let alone rigid. I would have used SEU cable there, although I don't use it that much. I like 2" PVC80 for risers.
> 
> Is the metal riser code in your area?
> Is the outside disco code?
> ...


 
For most new services outside disconnects are required around here. There are a few exceptions that vary city to city. We, as a company, like to put them in for the customer. 

As far as the metal riser, I'd say it's not a local code. Just something my boss has always had me do. Looks alot nicer and the POCO has something solid to anchor to.

And yes, the window probably does open. What's not shown in the picture is there is another window above that one and to the right a bit. So we split the difference there.

Now I never have anything to do with billing but the customer did tell me how much she paid. I'd like to hear some quotes from you guys to see if we are above or below market value for such a job. 

Cutler hammer metered disconnect with a couple breaker spaces outside there.
The RMC riser.
4/0 aluminum cable feeding the meter base.
4/0 4 SE feeding the panel.
New 200A GE breaker box and breakers. Seems like it was about 25 or 30 breaker spaces. We were able to put all the existing circuits right back in the new panel-didn't have to set a bunch of j-boxes.

Just curious.


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

Hillbilly said:


> That looks pretty good Rod.:thumbsup:
> 
> Thats pretty much how we do 'em here. I like that idea of the unistrut.


Hey thanks Hillbilly.

We like to make it look good. I mean we wire it good too, but if it also looks good that can mean more work for us. I can't count how many jobs we've gotten just because we were neat and clean.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If I was to copy that service, I'd be at about $2303.00, assuming AL in the raceway, panel surface mounted, and assuming the water line wasn't too terribly far away or hard to get a path from the water to water entrance. I'm using the only price I have handy for a 200 amp meter/main, which is a Milbank. I am a CH fan, but I generally always use Milbank metering equipment for resi up to 4 gang, and SQD for multimetering stacks.

Your utility uses the oddest looking preform deadend I've ever seen. It looks more like a guy strand preform.


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

Oh yeah, forgot to add that we drove 2 8' ground rods with bare copper #4. That's what the little 3/4" emt up the side of the LB is for.


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## Hillbilly (Mar 20, 2007)

Our POCO here wants RMC on an overhead Service,they won't hit anything else.

MDshunk's comment about the Water line made me think of somethin' else. In my neck of the woods,Municipal water has only been widely available for the last 30-35 yrs. Consequently,99.9% of all service lines are PVC,so thats somethin' that seldom enters an electrician's mind here.

And Copper interior waterlines are almost a thing of the past here too.

I guess the only time I ever think of somethin' like that,is on a Service change on the odd,older house where they're on a well pump,and maybe have a Galvanized line feeding the house.


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## rod213 (Mar 16, 2007)

Well my boss bid this entire job for $1400 dollars according to the lil lady yesterday. So it seems were a touch low. LOL


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

rod213 said:


> Well my boss bid this entire job for $1400 dollars according to the lil lady yesterday. So it seems were a touch low. LOL


Way low, in my opinion. In your market, though, who's to say? I know that prices are depressed in WVA, particularly in the coal regions where you're at. Get over more towards Martinsburg, and you could easily double that price.


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## sundogusa (Jan 22, 2007)

Nice job! We usually use EMT, and standard meter socket. Panels have mains.
Exception is if the panel is more than 8' from the exterior wall (state rule) then we need to have disconnect either outside by meter or at point of entry.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Nice neat work but is the kindorf/ unistrut/ RGC necessary on a house? I don't think it is. But thats just constructive criticism. I prefer RNC. The price seems a bit low to me but whatever works for you, your boss, and your customers is what the job is really worth. Around here a service like that goes anywhere from $1600-$2500, depending on the EC.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Is it code (POCO) that the drop hits the riser itself? If so then this is obviously the reason for RMC. 
In my area we use points of attachment on the structure, not the riser. The obvious exception is a mast service.

I'd rather have a nice solid point on the building than on the pipe. Why stress the riser more than it needs to be?


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## Hillbilly (Mar 20, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Is it code (POCO) that the drop hits the riser itself? If so then this is obviously the reason for RMC.
> In my area we use points of attachment on the structure, not the riser. The obvious exception is a mast service.
> 
> I'd rather have a nice solid point on the building than on the pipe. Why stress the riser more than it needs to be?


Here,the POCO won't attach the drop to the House or structure anymore,unless it's an unusual situation. But then again,unless it's a change-out on an existing OH Service,they're almost unheard of here,everything these days is UG,in this neck of the woods.


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

I'd have charged @1800.00, although around here its usually seu and ser, or underground, not too many masts anymore.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

That's odd that the POCO wont attach the point of attachment to the house. That means that every house that has an overhead service, and wants to upgrade that service, will have to use ridgid pipe and strut instead PVC and "normal looking" straps. I'd imagine it costs a small fortune to have it changed to underground.


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## Hillbilly (Mar 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> That's odd that the POCO wont attach the point of attachment to the house. That means that every house that has an overhead service, and wants to upgrade that service, will have to use ridgid pipe and strut instead PVC and "normal looking" straps. I'd imagine it costs a small fortune to have it changed to underground.


It depends on how far away from the Transformer you are. If it's less than 500',they'll come out and trench you UG for around $250-$300.

Course Our POCO is a Co-Op,or EMC,that originated under the Tennessee Valley Authority,and The old Rural Electrification Association.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Well then I take that back.

$2-300 ain't much at all.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

We deal with 5 or 6 utilities in our area but the two I am most familiar with will do over head for no charge, underground up to 50' then it is a per foot charge after that, I had to do primary underground to my house and received a bill for $6,500.00, I was not ready for that unexpected and not budgeted expense. 

Had a call to a residence where they had motor generator problems. Seems the builder installed 3 -phase chillers based upon the utility verbal quote of $1,000,000.00 (YES ONE MILLION DOLLARS), to install 3-phase primary overhead to the property line. When the utility engineers did the survey they gave a revised written quote that pushed $3,000,000.00.

The customer has commercial chillers and humidification, to keep his $21,000,000.00 of art work at the exact pristine temperature and humidity.

What they did was install 3-rotary phase converters to operate in parallel, the chillers when on the converter's had major current imbalances and shut down on Phase failure and Current imbalance alarm. The output of a phase converter, at least these is A-B 208, B-C 208, C-A 240. The chiller manufacture said this setup voids the warranty.

So plan two was put into effect use the phase converters to feed a 250 kva motor generator the motor generator feeds true 3-phase with balanced voltage to the chiller. The motor generator was designed by the manufacture for this application.

I can not remember the exact load but out of curiosity I decided to measure kw in and kw out. The system when operating a full load is 35 % efficient. I calculated the cost of losses each yer and they could have redesigned the system given away all the rotaries and MG and break even in 1-2 years.

Now the chiller runs fine......BUT this was expensive and continues to be expensive with operating and maintenance cost.


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## sundogusa (Jan 22, 2007)

brian john said:


> ... the utility verbal quote of $1,000,000.00 (YES ONE MILLION DOLLARS), to install 3-phase primary overhead to the property line. When the utility engineers did the survey they gave a revised written quote that pushed $3,000,000.00....


There is a certain aversion to paying the utility anything more than what is actually owed, almost like paying the IRS.

Rather burn the money than give it to the POCO...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

True....But as far as providing service there is only one game in each town and they have you by the proverbial short hairs.


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## mdcorreia (Mar 31, 2007)

It does not quite match - Aluminin? then rigid, unecessary disconnect outside, not 3 feet from a window, should have 3 clamps, is there water draining means at the lb fitting? The bracket looks like an under eve type, is the neutral insulated from the meter to the panel - it looks like no increase in size to accomodate an insulated neutral? Over all looks good but is the boss making money? You have no competition there? Also did you ID all CBRK properly or some have written - lites and plugs? It takes one man 2 hrs to id 30 spaces properly! These are just comments to open up a can of worms - like I always do - but I can see the pride of doing good work - keep it up!


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Oh yeah, forgot to add that we drove 2 8' ground rods with bare copper #4. That's what the little 3/4" emt up the side of the LB is for.


 
OK code geeks. Tell him what section he violated there.

I have been shot down for this and told that I would have to use a bond bushing at BOTH ends of the conduit if I did this so now I just use PVC to sleeve it.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

mdcorreia said:


> It does not quite match - Aluminum? then rigid, unnecessary disconnect outside, not 3 feet from a window, should have 3 clamps, is there water draining means at the lb fitting? The bracket looks like an under eve type, is the neutral insulated from the meter to the panel - it looks like no increase in size to accommodate an insulated neutral? Over all looks good but is the boss making money? You have no competition there? Also did you ID all CBRK properly or some have written - lites and plugs? It takes one man 2 hrs to id 30 spaces properly! These are just comments to open up a can of worms - like I always do - but I can see the pride of doing good work - keep it up!


Well MD, guess the can of worms are open now! I agree nice job & he should be proud of the work. Also, good job for you on the critiquing the installation. Reference Aluminum installed in rigid are you concerned about induction? Also, if you are referring to the drop above the pictured window the conductors can be less than 3ft., 230.9(A) Exception.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> unecessary disconnect outside


UNecessary???


I thought the disco HAD to be outside so the fire dept could kil the power (six handles or less)???


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

220/221 said:


> UNecessary???
> 
> 
> I thought the disco HAD to be outside so the fire dept could kil the power (six handles or less)???


This may be a local requirement. It is certainly NOT an NEC requirement.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

How about the bonding of the conduit that the ground rod wire passes thru?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> How about the bonding of the conduit that the ground rod wire passes thru?


Now that right there, that's in the NEC if you're talking about metallic conduit.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Now that right there, that's in the NEC if you're talking about metallic conduit.


 


> Oh yeah, forgot to add that we drove 2 8' ground rods with bare copper #4. That's what the little 3/4" emt up the side of the LB is for.


That's what I'm talkin about.


That's what KILLS me about the code issues. It seems obvious to me that a disconnect SHOULD be installed outside so the fire dept can easily kill the power in an emergency...but apparently it's not a requirement.

THEN you have something that makes no sense (to me) that requires bonding that little piece of EMT at both ends with the #4 wire (if I remember correctly).

I look at the code as a reference book rather than a Bible.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Got any "before" pix to show us?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

220/221 said:


> That's what I'm talkin about.
> 
> 
> That's what KILLS me about the code issues. It seems obvious to me that a disconnect SHOULD be installed outside so the fire dept can easily kill the power in an emergency...but apparently it's not a requirement.
> ...


220,

Maybe this will help.

OP wrote that a #4 bare copper wire was installed inside the EMT. If this wire becomes energized it could and probably will energize the EMT.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> If this wire becomes energized it could and probably will energize the EMT.


Heh heh...not for long.

If that wire becomes energized there will be a lot bigger issues than the EMT :laughing: . That wire goes directly to the grounded conductor of the service entrance and there will be some serious sparks flying.


I THINK the issue was more ...theoretical than that. Something to do with inductance or something.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

I can't remember the exact reason but it has to do with high voltage surges, more accurately...lightning.

I was gigged for that way back and the inspector told me that if the service was hit that open end of the pipe would blow out like a rifle, or something to that effect. 
There HAS to be a legitimate reason this is required.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> There HAS to be a legitimate reason this is required.


Yes, there sure is. The unbonded EMT will act like an inductor ("choke") and limit the flow of current on the GEC and convert it to heat if it's ever pressed into service. Probably a bigger deal with insulated GEC's, versus the bare copper most guys seem to use on resi services, since the bare will probably be touching the pipe the whole way down. Unbonded, it basicly makes the EMT a one winding transformer. Bond it at one end or the the other, and the effect is cancelled. I'm not sure why we're required to bond it at both ends, but I guess it's twice as good then?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Here:

_*250.92(A)(3)

250.92 Services
(A) Bonding of Services *The non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment indicated in 250.92(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) shall be effectively bonded together. 
(1) The service raceways, cable trays, cablebus framework, auxiliary gutters, or service cable armor or sheath except as permitted in 250.84. 
(2) All service enclosures containing service conductors, including meter fittings, boxes, or the like, interposed in the service raceway or armor. 
_ _(3) Any metallic raceway or armor enclosing a grounding electrode conductor as specified in 250.64(B). Bonding shall apply at each end and to all intervening raceways, boxes, and enclosures between the service equipment and the grounding electrode.

_ _Handbook Commentary:

Section 250.92(A)(3) is intended to clarify that where metal raceways, boxes, or enclosures contain a grounding electrode conductor, both ends of the raceway, box, or enclosure must be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor, as illustrated in Exhibit 250.32. Bonding the raceway to the conductor reduces the impedance and minimizes the potential difference between the electrical equipment and ground. It should be noted that a change in 250.64(E) for the 2005 Code requires bonding of only ferrous metal enclosures that contain a grounding electrode conductor. See also 250.64(E) and 250.102(A) for requirements covering the installation of protective enclosures for grounding electrode conductors and for materials permitted as bonding jumpers. _


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Here's how we do em.

Images too large to attach so I guess I have to use links.

Before. A crapload of circuits jammed into this panel and the twin 50 amp AC breaker was burning the buss ( happens a LOT here). POCO disconnects power 8:30 AM

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical021.jpg


Disconnect wiring

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical022.jpg

Remove panel, load controller and AC disconnect.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical023.jpg

Dig up and CAREFULLY remove rusty riser (energized conductors) and cut a few inches off UG conduit for proper fit.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical024.jpg

Install new service 

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical025.jpg

Terminate wiring and wait for city and POCO inspections

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/Electrical027.jpg

Of course I tested everything and labeled the panel but I picked up everything including the camera while waiting on POCO. Appx 6 hours work with one apprentice to help. Lunch @ 3:30 PM.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> Here's how we do em.


Nice looking install. Certainly an improvement. 

What sort of fitting did you use to bring all those cables in the back?


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

> Nice looking install. Certainly an improvement.
> 
> What sort of fitting did you use to bring all those cables in the back?


Not bad for a hack :thumbsup: 

I used a 2" snap in plastic bushing in the factory KO and an 1 1/2 " in a hole cut about 6-8 inches above (to get more length). It is ALMOST accepted here. I have never been turned down but have heard of an over zealous inspector that requires connectors for every cable.

Original install had a 2" steel chase nipple wich was a struggle to get off.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

220/221 said:


> I used a 2" snap in plastic bushing in the factory KO and an 1 1/2 " in a hole cut about 6-8 inches above (to get more length). It is ALMOST accepted here.


That's what I thought it looked like. I sorta had to smile when I saw that in the picture. _Maybe_ I sometimes do that too, and _maybe_ it's *almost* accepted here too. :whistling2:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

Crap...I meant almost ALWAYS accepted.



Wait a minute....you are not one of those guys who pick and choose when to follow the code are you? I mean....with all that whistling goin on I kinda thought.....naw...never mind.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

rod213 said:


> Well my boss bid this entire job for $1400 dollars according to the lil lady yesterday. So it seems were a touch low. LOL


That is mighty low for gal, is it copper also ? That is close to a NYC Queens Borough style service, except the lower 1/2 is gal and the watermain is a EMT conduit run to the watermain. We get $3500 for 200 amps.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Shockdoc said:


> That is mighty low for gal, is it copper also ? That is close to a NYC Queens Borough style service, except the lower 1/2 is gal and the watermain is a EMT conduit run to the watermain. We get $3500 for 200 amps.


You know that this thread is 3 years old and the person you are speaking to hasn't been here in 3 and a half years?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You know that this thread is 3 years old and the person you are speaking to hasn't been here in 3 and a half years?


yeah, after I wrote that, don't I feel foolish:whistling2:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

The overall job looks okay but the service conductors look to be too close to the window. Is that code? Also, how did you make the attachment to the ground rod?


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## Jsmit319 (Sep 23, 2010)

It just made it by 230.9(A) ex.


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