# Fish Tape in Alum Rigid Conduit



## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Put a bigger hook on the front. 
It caught on a thread at a fitting.
You can also get away with tapping the pipe with your Klein’s at the stick point to jar it free.


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## wcord (Jan 23, 2011)

I have always preferred a vacuum for long runs.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Put a Ideal Goldfish leader on your tape. And straighten the first 50’ of your tape before insertion.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I used a fiberglass ductrodder with roller attachment. Not just for Al conduit.
Rolls right in.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Don’t use 1/2 inch conduit!


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Work required to unroll fishtape then rewind fishtape verses getting the vacuum that runs off the inverter in the van = 80 feet.

Also we send string on a greelee conduit pistons. We don't use mouse cartridge as thats double the work and a pain if you need to pop one free.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

I rarely use 1/2" conduit at all....its a bitch to pull wire through but I found the

SIMpull™ Fish Tape 4.5mm 125' Non Conductive Tip, Large Case | Southwire

Works great...Its only 125' long and i have pushed just about the entire fish threw 3/4" EMT several times.

I try to stick with 3/4" conduit when ever possible

I chuckle when I see people at home depot buying 1/2" PVC pipe for their home projects....good luck getting wires in that


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## CWL (Jul 7, 2020)

Tonedeaf said:


> I chuckle when I see people at home depot buying 1/2" PVC pipe for their home projects....good luck getting wires in that


Depends on what you're doing. If just running a feed to a small security light or convenience outlet why not 1/2"?


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

wcord said:


> I have always preferred a vacuum for long runs.


Totally agree. In facility work I always had compressed air as well. Its better than a vacuum.



backstay said:


> Don’t use 1/2 inch conduit!


In some cases 1/2" is fine Jeff. I remember a long time ago someone said on this forum that "you can get a hell of a lot of electricity through a 1/2 pipe". It is true.
But I always tried to run 3/4 when I could.



CWL said:


> Depends on what you're doing. If just running a feed to a small security light or convenience outlet why not 1/2"?


Agree. While I prefer 3/4, I have run my share of 1/2 and never had any issues with getting a tape through it or a string. Also in residential, 1/2 is all you need. Maybe 3/4 on a couple things.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> Totally agree. In facility work I always had compressed air as well. Its better than a vacuum.
> 
> 
> In some cases 1/2" is fine Jeff. I remember a long time ago someone said on this forum that "you can get a hell of a lot of electricity through a 1/2 pipe". It is true.
> ...


I am going to show this to the POCO. They are demanding 2" minimum. Sometimes 2-1/2". Sometimes 3".


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Half inch is fine for a lot of resi stuff, sleeves on the concrete basement walls for appliances, and so on. Long runs can be tough. Always been that if there’s any doubt in your mind about pulling after it’s put together, go big. With today’s prices, may stop to think a bit about how big.


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## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

If your fish tape is anything other than brand new it will fight you. Kinks and twists and it will bind up against the inside of the conduit. Aluminum is extra grippy too.
Brand new tape should be like throwing a hotdogs down a hallway.
Vacuum should work well on long runs of threaded 1/2". Emt with setscrews not so much. Too much air sucks in at the fittings.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I know the head makes a difference and sometimes a bigger teardrop shaped one slides better across fittings. Shown that as apprentice. Why can’t I push the snake in a three inch conduit? Journeyman put a huge loop on it and it went through like butter. Good learning experience.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Vacuum or compressed air all day long. My m18 vacuum(not supper strong) would suck through that in 10-15 seconds max with a greenlee foam mouse. The nylon tapes that look braided would fly through that as long as the head isn't too large.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Al and steel is very sticky use a fiberglass fish tape


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

CMP said:


> Put a Ideal Goldfish leader on your tape. And straighten the first 50’ of your tape before insertion.


I like it CMP! Never seen that leader before ... great idea.

Why didn't you tell me before I retired


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

power said:


> Admittedly, I've little experience with rigid aluminum conduit.
> 
> Myself and my son installed a 1/2" aluminum conduit run of about 300feet last week, with C-fittings (pull points at about 100' and 200'), absolutely straight, NO BENDS.


who the F does that? Not Any experience electrician I know.

Are you even an electrician?


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

power said:


> Admittedly, I've little experience with rigid aluminum conduit.
> 
> Myself and my son installed a 1/2" aluminum conduit run of about 300feet last week, with C-fittings (pull points at about 100' and 200'), absolutely straight, NO BENDS.
> 
> ...


300 feet of 1/2 inch pipe? I have to ask, what are you putting in that pipe? Cause of course it’s not gonna go well.


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## power (Feb 27, 2012)

LGLS said:


> who the F does that? Not Any experience electrician I know.
> 
> Are you even an electrician?


I've been in the trade since 1986, journeyman in 1990, wrote my Masters in 1994, and started the company in 1997. For 26 years now, I've owned a local electrical company and trained four young men to become journeyman and assisted 20-30 apprentices carry on in their career! Now, I am finishing training my son as a journeyman, and he will take the company in the next 10yrs as I retire. I am a member of the local county electrical association.

So, in quoting you: "*...*_*who the F does that?....*". _An experienced Master electrician whom observes the site, the requirements of the customer, the local elec codes, and uses his skill (complimented by his age) to determine the correct raceway, conductor/s, installation method, etc.....that's "*...who the F does!!!!!...*"

In quoting you: "_.*..not any experienced electrician I know...*_*.*". Perhaps you need to associated with some aged men, rather than "talking smack".

Once again quoting: "._*..Are you even an electrician?....*_".....That's rich. 

If this is the kind of crap you've been going around spewing and trolling for 10,727 posts, I'd suggest you smarten up, otherwise leave. These forums are made for professionals. Individuals whom are clearly not electricians (DIY question posters) are removed by the moderator. Too, it is expected that participants of ET are not insultive, slanderous or frankly rude...or they too, risk being ejected.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

emtnut said:


> I used a fiberglass ductrodder with roller attachment. Not just for Al conduit.
> Rolls right in.



Im to poor. I grab a piece of 1/4 inch air tubing (always a valve near by with to much tubing on it) heat it up then pull it till it snaps. You end up with a piece of plastic heat shrunk to the end of the tape with a sharp plastic flexible point. 
On the fiberglass tapes the airline can be screwed onto the threads.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

power said:


> I've been in the trade since 1986, journeyman in 1990, wrote my Masters in 1994, and started the company in 1997. For 26 years now, I've owned a local electrical company and trained four young men to become journeyman and assisted 20-30 apprentices carry on in their career! Now, I am finishing training my son as a journeyman, and he will take the company in the next 10yrs as I retire. I am a member of the local county electrical association.
> 
> So, in quoting you: "*...*_*who the F does that?....*". _An experienced Master electrician whom observes the site, the requirements of the customer, the local elec codes, and uses his skill (complimented by his age) to determine the correct raceway, conductor/s, installation method, etc.....that's "*...who the F does!!!!!...*"
> 
> ...


I mean in lg defense he kinda has a point . Every electrician worth their salt knows steel fish steels don’t work in Al conduit


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Slay301 said:


> I mean in lg defense he kinda has a point . Every electrician worth their salt knows steel fish steels don’t work in Al conduit


Except if you have never used AL conduit before.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## radio208 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thats right,,,al and cu will have a galvanic reaction and so...wait...wait...._Oh no! People are jumping outta the conduit as it crashes to the earth in pieces...This is terrible....Oh the humanity....._


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

gpop said:


> Im to poor. I grab a piece of 1/4 inch air tubing (always a valve near by with to much tubing on it) heat it up then pull it till it snaps. You end up with a piece of plastic heat shrunk to the end of the tape with a sharp plastic flexible point.
> On the fiberglass tapes the airline can be screwed onto the threads.


Ours were bought by the taxpayers 

They don't allow the metal tapes in any Utility work here. Not sure if that was just our Operations ... I know one time back in the 90's someone was fishing in some rope, and they ended up feeding the tape into the Hydro Duct bank !
Nothing happened, but it could have been real bad !


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

gpop said:


> Im to poor. I grab a piece of 1/4 inch air tubing (always a valve near by with to much tubing on it) heat it up then pull it till it snaps. You end up with a piece of plastic heat shrunk *to the end of the tape with a sharp plastic flexible point.*
> On the fiberglass tapes the airline can be screwed onto the threads.


I do essentially the same thing with tape. Much faster.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

For the 1/2" argument.... for years I thought it was a code violation to use 1/2" on a commercial job, that's what the first guy I worked for taught me, we always ran 3/4" minimum no matter what it was. 

It wasn't until years later I learned that was just his preference lol.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

just to add to the story
our maint supervisor outlawed 1/2" RMC
it was too flimsy for a sawmill,
plus left no room for expansion which was causing a need for a new run every time a control wire was added in the area


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

wcord said:


> I have always preferred a vacuum for long runs.


Yea, bag mouse are fun too 

I’m always amazed at how far you can get a pull string that fast with a vacuum . 

This is what I use, super handy. 









Milwaukee M18 18-Volt 2 Gal. Lithium-Ion Cordless Wet/Dry Vacuum W/ Extra Wet/Dry HEPA Filter 0880-20-49-90-1900 - The Home Depot


The Milwaukee M18 Cordless 2 Gal. Wet/Dry Vacuum provides users with a Powerful and Portable Wet/Dry Clean-up tool. A high performance motor creates powerful suction for both wet and dry applications.



www.homedepot.com






EDIT: wow, these have gotten expensive! I think I paid $99. LGBFJB


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

You tried to snake that?

Vac and String all the way.

Once you have it set up, it take this long -------- POOF!

No joke, as long as it takes to say POOF out loud, and the string will be out the other side, (Ok maybe POOOF)


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

power said:


> I've been in the trade since 1986, journeyman in 1990, wrote my Masters in 1994, and started the company in 1997. For 26 years now, I've owned a local electrical company and trained four young men to become journeyman and assisted 20-30 apprentices carry on in their career! Now, I am finishing training my son as a journeyman, and he will take the company in the next 10yrs as I retire. I am a member of the local county electrical association.
> 
> So, in quoting you: "*...*_*who the F does that?....*". _An experienced Master electrician whom observes the site, the requirements of the customer, the local elec codes, and uses his skill (complimented by his age) to determine the correct raceway, conductor/s, installation method, etc.....that's "*...who the F does!!!!!...*"
> 
> ...


This forum is for electricians. It’s not contractor specific nor contractor centric. There’s another board for contractors only, Perhaps you should go over there and take your ivory tower with you.

You ran 300 feet of half-inch. In my humble opinion, you’re an idiot. I’m sorry if that’s offensive to you, and I’m sorry if you think your accomplishments in life make you untouchable in your mind, but not in mine. This is a free country, I have freedom of speech, and freedom to speak my mind and my opinion.

Half-inch conduit is not even permitted in 99% of the places I have ever worked in my life. Because it’s garbage and it’s made for cheap people and cheap trashy contractors. Who follow _minimum code_.

God bless you and have a nice day peace out.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

LGLS said:


> This forum is for electricians. It’s not contractor specific nor contractor centric. There’s another board for contractors only, Perhaps you should go over there and take your ivory tower with you.
> 
> You ran 300 feet of half-inch. In my humble opinion, you’re an idiot. I’m sorry if that’s offensive to you, and I’m sorry if you think your accomplishments in life make you untouchable in your mind, but not in mine. This is a free country, I have freedom of speech, and freedom to speak my mind and my opinion.
> 
> ...


I would appreciate stopping with the name calling. I wouldn't do it the way he did either, but he is far from being an idiot. So lets cool it. Thanks in advance.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

power said:


> I've been in the trade since 1986, journeyman in 1990, wrote my Masters in 1994, and started the company in 1997. For 26 years now, I've owned a local electrical company and trained four young men to become journeyman and assisted 20-30 apprentices carry on in their career! Now, I am finishing training my son as a journeyman, and he will take the company in the next 10yrs as I retire. I am a member of the local county electrical association.
> 
> So, in quoting you: "*...*_*who the F does that?....*". _An experienced Master electrician whom observes the site, the requirements of the customer, the local elec codes, and uses his skill (complimented by his age) to determine the correct raceway, conductor/s, installation method, etc.....that's "*...who the F does!!!!!...*"
> 
> ...


You spent way too long defending your action.
I have you by a few years, and the older I get the more I find that 1/2" is nice for the last few feet of a run if necessary, a lighting circuit and maybe a switch drop. If someone that works for me runs 300' if 1/2" I would be inclined to get their money. That is a rookie mistake and a very selfish and inconsiderate way to install conduit.
We rarely use 1/2" and never underground. I always try to use 1" as a minimum underground, 3/4" for something specific or if its a very short run.
Using 300' of 1/2" Al rigid is nothing less than a **** move.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> For the 1/2" argument.... for years I thought it was a code violation to use 1/2" on a commercial job, that's what the first guy I worked for taught me, we always ran 3/4" minimum no matter what it was.
> 
> It wasn't until years later I learned that was just his preference lol.


Its a specification violation, I have picked some practices doing institutional work that I carry into the standard commercial world that make for a very nice job without much of a cost increase. 
The first thing is not to shy away from malleable iron fittings, especially for Tees and LBs. Im not a big fan of cast aluminum fittings


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## power (Feb 27, 2012)

Bluenose for rent said:


> 300 feet of 1/2 inch pipe? I have to ask, what are you putting in that pipe? Cause of course it’s not gonna go well.


Re-read the original post. 300 feet in total length, c/w two (2) pull points, that is, one c-fitting at 100', another at 200'. There should be NO PROBLEM with pulling 100feet of conductors (3x #12AWG) in a STRAIGHT pipe with NO bends!!


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## power (Feb 27, 2012)

Southeast Power said:


> You spent way too long defending your action.
> I have you by a few years, and the older I get the more I find that 1/2" is nice for the last few feet of a run if necessary, a lighting circuit and maybe a switch drop. If someone that works for me runs 300' if 1/2" I would be inclined to get their money. That is a rookie mistake and a very selfish and inconsiderate way to install conduit.
> We rarely use 1/2" and never underground. I always try to use 1" as a minimum underground, 3/4" for something specific or if its a very short run.
> Using 300' of 1/2" Al rigid is nothing less than a **** move.


Thank-You for the comment about defending myself. I likely did spend too much time.

Here is a quick insight into this project where 1/2" alum rigid was used: This is a public parking lot, private parking ticket dispensers are placed randomly. Parking company had TECK cable originally strapped to the fence to feed the ticket dispenser. In my opinion, this was a fair decision as there is no excavating required, TECK is approved for this area, and its a utility area where esthetics are not an issue. However, vagrants keep stealing the TECK cable, and get $$$ for it's copper. Naturally, I am trying to keep my customer happy by offering alternatives to the re-installation of TECK (above gnd) only to have it stolen again. Rigid steel conduit, for me, is about $580USD per 100", whereas, alum is $195USD per 100'. Either of these conduits will satisfy the customer by way of durability, but not financially. AL conduit isn't my first choice neither. Wage earning electricians really need to realize there are factors behind the scenes that often times govern the decision made by electrical company business owners.


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## power (Feb 27, 2012)

Slay301 said:


> I mean in lg defense he kinda has a point . Every electrician worth their salt knows steel fish steels don’t work in Al conduit


In the introduction to my original post, I was humble enough to say I had little experience with AL conduit. This prompted me to inquire what my fellow CA and US electricians. I've understood that humbly asking questions and applying their answers has indeed helped myself develop as an electrician and business owner.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

i find the inside of aluminum conduit very sticky and you can feel the added friction when trying to push in a steel fishtape.

I dont think anyone has mentioned this yet... lol

suck in a mouse with a vacuum. zoom!

i usually use a fiberglass fishtape in aluminum

theres no limit to how many people can recommend the same thing, right?


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is difficult to push a fish tape thru aluminum conduit. Is the tape hitting a coupling? If so then turn the tape as you push or just get a small shop vac, some string and a small plastic bag. There are many who like the plastic bag better then the foam mouse pieces sold for this..


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If there's a spec that says 3/4" conduit minimum, that's fine, but I don't see the big deal about using 1/2" where it makes sense. Especially with lighting as efficient as it is now. 

You can fit nine 12awg wires in 1/2" conduit. You can reach out 300' on 20 amp 277V circuits and keep the voltage drop below 5%. (And with a lot of LED drivers, the voltage drop is no problem anyway.) 

With shared neutrals, that's six 20A circuits, with not-shared neutrals, it's four 20A circuits. (The derating works out OK at 20A.) So either about 33kva or 22kva at 277V. 

That's probably enough for 100,000 square feet in a single 1/2" conduit. 

So you insist on your switch loops going in 3/4" conduit?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

power said:


> Thank-You for the comment about defending myself. I likely did spend too much time.
> 
> Here is a quick insight into this project where 1/2" alum rigid was used: This is a public parking lot, private parking ticket dispensers are placed randomly. Parking company had TECK cable originally strapped to the fence to feed the ticket dispenser. In my opinion, this was a fair decision as there is no excavating required, TECK is approved for this area, and its a utility area where esthetics are not an issue. However, vagrants keep stealing the TECK cable, and get $$$ for it's copper. Naturally, I am trying to keep my customer happy by offering alternatives to the re-installation of TECK (above gnd) only to have it stolen again. Rigid steel conduit, for me, is about $580USD per 100", whereas, alum is $195USD per 100'. Either of these conduits will satisfy the customer by way of durability, but not financially. AL conduit isn't my first choice neither. Wage earning electricians really need to realize there are factors behind the scenes that often times govern the decision made by electrical company business owners.


Speaking of time wasting, I wouldn't waste any defending yourself with these guys. They won't concede anyway. Someone else pays for their conduit in some cases.

Sounds like you saved north of $1100.00 I would play around with a fish tape for some extra time for that kind of coin. 

Use a bit of lube at the beginning and a bit more at each pull point when pulling the wire in. No need to go overboard.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

joe-nwt said:


> Speaking of time wasting, I wouldn't waste any defending yourself with these guys. They won't concede anyway. Someone else pays for their conduit in some cases.
> 
> Sounds like you saved north of $1100.00 I would play around with a fish tape for some extra time for that kind of coin.
> 
> Use a bit of lube at the beginning and a bit more at each pull point when pulling the wire in. No need to go overboard.


We have one of these and its paid for itself many times over.
6mm x 130meters













https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t7BO3j7oS._SY445_SX342_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

splatz said:


> If there's a spec that says 3/4" conduit minimum, that's fine, but I don't see the big deal about using 1/2" where it makes sense. Especially with lighting as efficient as it is now.
> 
> You can fit nine 12awg wires in 1/2" conduit. You can reach out 300' on 20 amp 277V circuits and keep the voltage drop below 5%. (And with a lot of LED drivers, the voltage drop is no problem anyway.)
> 
> ...


Not in Canada, it’s 5 or 6 # 12’s depending on the conduit type for 1/2”


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

power said:


> Re-read the original post. 300 feet in total length, c/w two (2) pull points, that is, one c-fitting at 100', another at 200'. There should be NO PROBLEM with pulling 100feet of conductors (3x #12AWG) in a STRAIGHT pipe with NO bends!!


If there should be no problem why was there? 100’ is a long way to go with 1/2”, but I guess I can see saving on materials and hoping for the best. To each their own.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Not in Canada, it’s 5 or 6 # 12’s depending on the conduit type for 1/2”


9 #12 t90s in 1/2 rigid.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

splatz said:


> So you insist on your switch loops going in 3/4" conduit?


Yes, just in case the first loop fails we have plenty of room for the second loop in much larger wire lol!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

1/2” is trash, even plumbers and hvac guys run chity condensate water through 3/4 pvc lol!!


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

emtnut said:


> I like it CMP! Never seen that leader before ... great idea.
> 
> Why didn't you tell me before I retired


If you combine the Golfish leader on a 250’ stainless steel tape, I would bet that you could easily get the tape through a long straight run with little problem.

Steel tapes take a set sitting in their case, when they are played out, they come out a a giant corkscrew spring. This is why I mentioned straightening the first 50’. Pushing a corkscrew spring down a long narrow pipe is sure to end in frustration.

A stainless tape is much softer metal without the heat treating that the steel ones get. When it is played out of the case, it comes out much straighter and is more easily straightened or unkinked if that becomes necessary. I have been using an Ideal one for years, and would never consider going back to steel ones.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

Breakfasteatre said:


> 9 #12 t90s in 1/2 rigid.


Yeah I guess I assumed rw90


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

power said:


> Re-read the original post. 300 feet in total length, c/w two (2) pull points, that is, one c-fitting at 100', another at 200'. There should be NO PROBLEM with pulling 100feet of conductors (3x #12AWG) in a STRAIGHT pipe with NO bends!!


And yet you did.

I rest my case.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

power said:


> Thank-You for the comment about defending myself. I likely did spend too much time.
> 
> Here is a quick insight into this project where 1/2" alum rigid was used: This is a public parking lot, private parking ticket dispensers are placed randomly. Parking company had TECK cable originally strapped to the fence to feed the ticket dispenser. In my opinion, this was a fair decision as there is no excavating required, TECK is approved for this area, and its a utility area where esthetics are not an issue. However, vagrants keep stealing the TECK cable, and get $$$ for it's copper. Naturally, I am trying to keep my customer happy by offering alternatives to the re-installation of TECK (above gnd) only to have it stolen again. Rigid steel conduit, for me, is about $580USD per 100", whereas, alum is $195USD per 100'. Either of these conduits will satisfy the customer by way of durability, but not financially. AL conduit isn't my first choice neither. Wage earning electricians really need to realize there are factors behind the scenes that often times govern the decision made by electrical company business owners.


“Wage earning Electricians?“ I’m not sure I caught that because I’m so busy counting all the rental income that I make off my real estate investments. A far more lucrative industry to be in then contracting but then again… That might be difficult for you to comprehend from your glistening ivory tower.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> If there's a spec that says 3/4" conduit minimum, that's fine, but I don't see the big deal about using 1/2" where it makes sense. Especially with lighting as efficient as it is now.
> 
> You can fit nine 12awg wires in 1/2" conduit. You can reach out 300' on 20 amp 277V circuits and keep the voltage drop below 5%. (And with a lot of LED drivers, the voltage drop is no problem anyway.)
> 
> ...


Yes, reason being… Since everything else on the floor is mostly 3/4 inch or above, carrying all the stock in parts and fittings and straps etc. necessary for a little used conduit size is inefficient.

But then again, that may only apply to those that have real labor costs and not labor that costs 50% or more less.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

LGLS said:


> “Wage earning Electricians?“ I’m not sure I caught that because I’m so busy counting all the rental income that I make off my real estate investments. A far more lucrative industry to be in then contracting but then again… That might be difficult for you to comprehend from your glistening ivory tower.


My tower is Balboa Mist mist by Benjamin Moore since I painted it last year…does that count???


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> My tower is Balboa Mist mist by Benjamin Moore since I painted it last year…does that count???


Benjamin Moore is great paint, since I can’t find Cook & Dunn anymore…


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LGLS said:


> You ran 300 feet of half-inch. In my humble opinion, you’re an idiot.


Well, you recently asked if a fuggin USB only receptacle needed to GFCI'd.
I think everyone thought you were an idiot, but we didn't go on and on and on about it.

How bout you start your own forum, like "full of ourselves Union electrician Landlords"
It can be all about YOU, and how great you are ... well, except USB recepts, oh and Motors too 

You're Canuck Buddy, Nutzy


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

emtnut said:


> Well, you recently asked if a fuggin USB only receptacle needed to GFCI'd.
> I think everyone thought you were an idiot, but we didn't go on and on and on about it.
> 
> How bout you start your own forum, like "full of ourselves Union electrician Landlords"
> ...


You’re all wrong, his opinion wasn’t humble lol!!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

John Valdes said:


> I would appreciate stopping with the name calling. I wouldn't do it the way he did either, but he is far from being an idiot. So lets cool it. Thanks in advance.


Point taken.


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## frankendodge (Oct 25, 2019)

If I was homeless, I'd be excited about all the extra aluminum. Easier to strip than teck, cuts like butter. 90c/lb last I saw.
Lots of theft lately.. if they want it they will get it. Or **** it all up trying. 

How did the pull go?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Z


emtnut said:


> Well, you recently asked if a fuggin USB only receptacle needed to GFCI'd.
> I think everyone thought you were an idiot, but we didn't go on and on and on about it.
> 
> How bout you start your own forum, like "full of ourselves Union electrician Landlords"
> ...


I did start my own forum, but the moderators I hired unionized and then banned me.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Was that the one where you were asking about a fusible plit bus panel that you were going to install in one of your rental units?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

CMP said:


> Was that the one where you were asking about a fusible plit bus panel that you were going to install in one of your rental units?


No I installed that in my own house.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Yes, reason being… Since everything else on the floor is mostly 3/4 inch or above, carrying all the stock in parts and fittings and straps etc. necessary for a little used conduit size is inefficient.


Nah, that doesn't ring true. Why not just do everything in 1-1/4", 2", and 4" rigid and #6, 3/0, and 750 kcmil so you have fewer parts to stock? 



LGLS said:


> But then again, that may only apply to those that have real labor costs and not labor that costs 50% or more less.


That doesn't ring true either, the labor savings is probably greater than the materials cost savings, and labor savings save you time and money. It's easier and quicker to carry around bundles of 1/2" than 3/4", you can fit more fittings in your pouch / bucket so less runs to the gang box through your day, smaller KOs to drill or punch, fit more KOs in a jbox or trough or panel so smaller boxes etc., etc. etc. 

But that's not all, 1/2" EMT is so easy to bend I can bend it without the handle in a pinch. Even children and elderly people that would struggle with 3/4" could bend 1/2" EMT with a handle. You could probably still bend 1/2" EMT with a handle and an audience. 

With RMC, which the OP is using, 1/2" RMC is IMO just a little harder than 3/4" EMT and uses the same bender, 3/4" RMC is not as big a pain as 1-1/4" EMT but still pretty hard. Also it's a lot easier to thread 1/2" RMC, even with a hand threader. So with RMC the labor savings are even more. 

So in a situation where 1/2" makes sense from a design standpoint, there's no reason not to use it from a business standpoint. Nobody really thinks about the spec, it's been cut and pasted on commercial specs since before anyone working now was alive. Does it make sense as a spec? Maybe. 

If you're dealing with a contractor that will use 1/2" where they really ought to use 3/4" to chisel nickels, yes it makes sense. 

If you're dealing with installers that will use 1/2" where they really ought to use 3/4" because they're lazy, it makes sense. 

If you're dealing with people incapable of determining where it makes sense from a design standpoint, yes the spec makes sense. 

On my jobs, there's nobody like that around, so that spec does not make sense.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> Nah, that doesn't ring true. Why not just do everything in 1-1/4", 2", and 4" rigid and #6, 3/0, and 750 kcmil so you have fewer parts to stock?
> 
> 
> That doesn't ring true either, the labor savings is probably greater than the materials cost savings, and labor savings save you time and money. It's easier and quicker to carry around bundles of 1/2" than 3/4", you can fit more fittings in your pouch / bucket so less runs to the gang box through your day, smaller KOs to drill or punch, fit more KOs in a jbox or trough or panel so smaller boxes etc., etc. etc.
> ...


My opinion is derived from the standpoint of an electrician mostly involved in multi million dollar contracts working for GC‘s, lend lease developers, in buildings in facilities where tradition and professionalism reign supreme. In many pre-war buildings, there is a ton of half-inch GRC black pipe, both in the deck and over the oftentimes never demolished original plaster ceilings. Although half-inch was utilized then, bending black pipe, typically with hickeys back in those days, ensured that most electricians developed a proper set of guns.

All of these home runs, are three-quarter inch minimum GRC despite the fact that each one is dedicated to a less than one amp load, a control circuit for steam kettles and steam powered institutional cooking devices.










Even at 150 pounds, I found absolutely no difficulty bending three-quarter GRC, although I am aware it’s slightly easier it is to bend half inch, as far as I’m concerned, half inch is not an appropriate choice for anything beyond residential.
Besides, sticking to three-quarter inch minimum and 1 inch trade sizes does a body good. Sure you’re more tired at the end of the day










But bending larger trade size pipe has many rewards besides additional capacity.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Those are very old photos and your legs were so small you look like somebody put shorts on a pair of pliers.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> Those are very old photos and your legs were so small you look like somebody put shorts on a pair of pliers.


I was 22… They are better now.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

LGLS said:


> My opinion is derived from the standpoint of an electrician mostly involved in multi million dollar contracts working for GC‘s, lend lease developers, in buildings in facilities where tradition and professionalism reign supreme. In many pre-war buildings, there is a ton of half-inch GRC black pipe, both in the deck and over the oftentimes never demolished original plaster ceilings. Although half-inch was utilized then, bending black pipe, typically with hickeys back in those days, ensured that most electricians developed a proper set of guns.
> 
> All of these home runs, are three-quarter inch minimum GRC despite the fact that each one is dedicated to a less than one amp load, a control circuit for steam kettles and steam powered institutional cooking devices.
> 
> ...


what you don't recognize is that your experience is limited 
large new construction only

by your own admission you dont know anything about motors
you dont know any thing about applying GFCI rules in resi
you dont know any thing about wiring resi

you are not capable of walking in to a plant and taking a shift by yourself at night, with no one to call for backup
you are not capable of wiring a new house _like most electricians do_ 
(not saying you cant, just that no one else would be able to follow it and trouble shoot it)
and i would have to see you demonstrate trouble shooting skills in resi, commercial, and industrial before i would hire you for either of those positions

you are not a well rounded electrician
you are simply a new construction hand

and there is nothing wrong with being a new construction hand, many, many people are and they make a good living doing it
but that does not make you a well rounded, experienced electrician
it does not give you the right to talk about other people in situations that you are not familiar with


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Aaagh Jaysus crackers cut it out. I understand it's hard to buy pants that fit when your knees are the biggest part of your legs but I do not need to see this.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

i always choose not to look


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> My biggest concern is actually noise. It’s very quiet here I’d like to keep it that way.


That loud crash you just heard was my irony meter exploding on a dead short.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Almost Retired said:


> what you don't recognize is that your experience is limited
> large new construction only
> 
> by your own admission you dont know anything about motors
> ...


Whoa hold the phone there buddy! I did over 5 years of residential wiring, about 7 to 8 months of it nonunion, as well as old work residential, and the rest of it through IBEW Local 25 on Long Island as a book 4 Residential wireman. I along with usually one or two others roughed Entire developments…

For those familiar with Long Island, I roughed just about every “The Lakes At : (Honey Hollow, Bay point Bluff, Westbury Mews, Quail Run, A small little 300 home development in Commack called Country Woods, Eagle Chase, The Lakebridge Club, Tara, “ along with a few others I forgotten the names to.

I can wire a residence like nobody’s business and admittedly no, I didn’t run around with the code book under my arm. Although those who have never wired a residence might have some difficulties, it is by far the simplest easiest “specialty” of all of our trade facets. That is why it pays so little, But hey in 1986, 87, and 88… $17.90 an hour was nothing to sneeze at for a 20 year old to 22 year old kid. On top of that, I earned my first three pension credits with the international.

I didn’t work out of local 25 long enough to vest in their local pension, and I don’t know the status of that now but I do know that about 12 years ago they dissolved it and I received a huge check out of the blue.

I wire these developments through the largest residential contractor on Long Island, Newbridge electric, an IBEW 25 affiliate. We would rough four bedroom three bathroom homes alone, soup to nuts, in 16 hours to 20 hours , depending on how many high hats there were and how many air conditioning units the home had.

Up until landing that job, the nonunion residential contractors were paying at best five dollars an hour off the books, But most of their work was in Brookhaven township, a 45 minute commute for me at best.

It’s been mentioned on this board dozens of times, there is always something new to learn in this trade.

You think I’m not “well rounded?” Just a big job installer? By the age of 32 I had a crew of 16 men and Supervised 1/3 of the entire project of three floors on sixth Avenue for Newscorp, including three street level studios with bulletproof glass windows, the New York City headquarters of fox cable news. I spent years installing fiber optics in the outside plant through New York City’s telecommunication subways, miles including two projects that went clear from lower Manhattan to Connecticut, soup to nuts. I arc fusion spice fiber and certified. I am boom truck certified, CDL class B with tank, cable reel, and hazmat endorsements. In short, residential electrical is child’s play, and we all know that the wages paid reflect that.

Judging me, and completely assessing me based on a simple question about GFCI protecting a USB only receptacle reminds me of a trick nonunion contractors used to use when interviewing, which was to continue asking the applicant electrical questions until they started getting them wrong and then offer a wage based on those wrong answers… And usually those questions pertain to areas of the trade that contractor themselves would never ever get a job doing anyway, I was once asked by a residential contractor how to wire a stop start controller for a three phase motor, and how to size of the heaters. That contractor was specializing in aluminum wiring mitigation, (pigtailing) and converting entire homes from standard to Decora receptacles, And small residential addition/renovation projects, and probably never even bent a stick of three-quarter EMT in his life.

Of course, I was as much a wise ass and very cocky headstrong smart Alec then as I am now, and perception is everything. But pretty much everywhere I worked I either went in as, or very shortly became one of the top guys.

I haven’t purchased nor have I had the need to purchase a code book since prior to the year 2000, as I did all my work in New York City and we had our own code. They have since adopted the NEC, and that was the last code book I purchased.

So your claim that I am incapable of wiring a residence competently is just laughable. Because the reality is very little has changed since the mid-80s, other than arc fault rules, 20 amp bathroom receptacles, service receptacle requirements, firestopping responsibility, and a few other minuscule tweaks.

As far as my troubleshooting abilities, that is directly tied to my knowledge of electrical theory, and how it applies to the physical plant. I installed and maintain traffic signals in Manhattan for three years, alone. At night. I was responsible for everything above 59th St. and most of the controllers then we’re mechanical. Not only could I fix a controller in the dark, or a short circuit in a pole base, or determine A defective 13c cable underground, but I was also IMSA certified level three traffic signal maintainer.

Within three months of my starting that new job, I was offered a daytime position to work on what they called the post truck, there were two or three of them running to cover complex problems that the 14 other signal maintainers could not solve or correct on their own.

But I declined the position because, it takes most signal maintainers years to develop their skill set to be good enough for the post truck, which is also a daytime position with a set schedule and lots of overtime. But I enjoyed my days off, the city at night, and my ability to do what I want when I wanted, and typically nap away the last four hours of my shift.

Am I weak in the motors department? Absolutely. And you are correct I could not take over a shift and work alone in a plant without handholding… but that hasn’t stopped five different contractors from offering me a general foreman position. But I just don’t want that kind of responsibility, and I knew I was going to retire early, just not as early as I did.

But I would bet you after two or three months I would make the grade, because I am one of those electricians that “gets it.” And typically the one many people turn to when they have a problem or a question.

but all of that is a non sequitur at this point. I find that purchasing train wreck houses for a song, renovating them and either selling or renting them out at this point almost every bit as lucrative and far more fulfilling and satisfying, and after 30 years in the trade I had had enough of the politics, the game playing, the commuting, and all of the other negatives associated with having to punch a clock. Smart planning, and an absolutely brilliant impromptu life coach and mentor who encourage me to save and invest despite what little I had at a young age gave me the freedom to set off on my own personal dream and live it.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

none of that gives you the right to lash out at people the way you very often do


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

power said:


> I've been in the trade since 1986, journeyman in 1990, wrote my Masters in 1994, and started the company in 1997. For 26 years now, I've owned a local electrical company and trained four young men to become journeyman and assisted 20-30 apprentices carry on in their career! Now, I am finishing training my son as a journeyman, and he will take the company in the next 10yrs as I retire. I am a member of the local county electrical association.
> 
> So, in quoting you: "*...*_*who the F does that?....*". _An experienced Master electrician whom observes the site, the requirements of the customer, the local elec codes, and uses his skill (complimented by his age) to determine the correct raceway, conductor/s, installation method, etc.....that's "*...who the F does!!!!!...*"
> 
> ...


I love it when a guy says what everyone else is thinking. 👍

We have a good site going here and the job of a mod is easy. I don’t mind it when a member gets called out for being abrasive.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Almost Retired said:


> none of that gives you the right to lash out at people the way you very often do


I agree, although I think he's working on it. Slowly. I am wearing him down.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

FWIW, @power , I didn't know about fish tapes in AL either.

We only used it a couple of times, and like I said, we had a fiberglass rod with the roller. It went in easy.

I guess I'm not well rounded either 

I've run lots of 1/2" everything too ... many times it's all you need.

There ... I'm the bottom of the pack, well almost ... I do bend my offsets


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

MY eyes! 

Anybody have any bleach handy?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Get some quick, It's suddenly flying off the shelves

p.s. get 2 or 3 bottles


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Admittedly, I skipped leg decade.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

LGLS said:


> Admittedly, I skipped leg decade.


And pants week


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

When I did fire alarm retrofits we basically only used 1/2 because why use anything bigger if you are only ever going to need to run one or two 3/18 cables? If you use a bigger pipe some handyman might get the idea that the extra space in the pipe would be best utilized with the wires for the plug they are going to add. Even on large commercial jobs the single 3/16 cable that we ran per zone really didn't need a 3/4 pipe all for itself.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

LGLS said:


> I was 22… They are better now.


I thought men grew hair after puberty ???


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

splatz said:


> And pants week


You’re just jealous, I can tell.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

emtnut said:


> I thought men grew hair after puberty ???


Not me. I can barely even grow facial hair and shave once every 10 days.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I have been known to use a 3/4” bender on 1/2” EMT so the 90’s aren’t as tight.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

In Lgls defense he’s probably better than any one in here and his hog game in on point in those undies


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Slay301 said:


> In Lgls defense he’s probably better than any one in here and his hog game in on point in those undies


What’s a hog game?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

LGLS said:


> What’s a hog game?


You stuffin those Mountain Dew boxers my guy ?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Slay301 said:


> You stuffin those Mountain Dew boxers my guy ?


I don’t understand your question? Are you complementing my underwear they’re kind of like more like shorts than underwear but… What do you mean by stuffing them? I’m just trying to show my legs aren’t the chicken scratch they used to be


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

LGLS said:


> I don’t understand your question? Are you complementing my underwear they’re kind of like more like shorts than underwear but… What do you mean by stuffing them? I’m just trying to show my legs aren’t the chicken scratch they used to be


Lol no man. Straight from urban dictionary


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Yo Bill. come take a pic o0f Muh Legs!!! hahaa

Well at least we know @LGLS has/had a handsome dog.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Signal1 said:


> Yo Bill. come take a pic o0f Muh Legs!!! hahaa
> 
> Well at least we know @LGLS has/had a handsome dog.


Are you forgetting my hog?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

LGLS said:


> Are you forgetting my hog?


no one can forget that beast


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

99cents said:


> I have been known to use a 3/4” bender on 1/2” EMT so the 90’s aren’t as tight.


I thought that was SOP.


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## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

power said:


> Admittedly, I've little experience with rigid aluminum conduit.
> 
> Myself and my son installed a 1/2" aluminum conduit run of about 300feet last week, with C-fittings (pull points at about 100' and 200'), absolutely straight, NO BENDS.
> 
> ...


The solution is that you don't use aluminum raceways.
But if you must, budget more wire pulling time and lubricant.


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## Brianrayl (Oct 4, 2013)

power said:


> Admittedly, I've little experience with rigid aluminum conduit.
> 
> Myself and my son installed a 1/2" aluminum conduit run of about 300feet last week, with C-fittings (pull points at about 100' and 200'), absolutely straight, NO BENDS.
> 
> ...


Go with a string.


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## Breakfasteatre (Sep 8, 2009)

You gotta use that fiberglass fishtape, less friction. You can really feel the steel fishtape grabbing the inside of the pipe

Gotta use wirelube, you didnt know about wire lube?!

how about pushing or sucking a mouse through the pipe? You wouldnt believe how quick it is! Didnt know about that one either, did you?!


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## larrydoss1953 (4 mo ago)

power said:


> Admittedly, I've little experience with rigid aluminum conduit.
> 
> Myself and my son installed a 1/2" aluminum conduit run of about 300feet last week, with C-fittings (pull points at about 100' and 200'), absolutely straight, NO BENDS.
> 
> ...


Wow.....300' run of what size wire are you using, and is it going to exceed more than 40% of the conduit filll area? The voltage drop for that long of a run has to be more than 5% too, I would think. Perhaps I am wrong?


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