# backstab receptacles for 12 gauge wire



## MechanicalDVR

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

You are joking right?

Cleatus is that you?:whistling2:



No self respecting electrician uses back stab devices.:no::no:


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## just the cowboy

*Side connections*

Get the ones with side pressure plates, they are way better that backstab and connect up fast.


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## telsa

roundrightfarm said:


> I have 100 + receptacles to wire up in a house that was run completely with 12 gauge wire. Does anyone make a receptacle that allows 12 gauge to push fit into the back for a reasonable price. I've seen "industrial" rated receptacles that offer this, but they cost 5 times as much.
> 
> Of course, There are plenty that take 14 in the back and require 12 gauge to be looped and screwed down on the side. *Were looking for a 12 gauge back stab option for a reasonable price for residential.* *We are also hoping to find this receptacle in the more modern, square-ish shape*, rather than the traditional round.
> 
> Thanks


You will search in vain.

#14 taps are the best you'll be able to pull off... you back-stabber.

*You're describing Decora* ?

You're going to be wrapping a lot of wire terminations. It's not that difficult.


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## MechanicalDVR

just the cowboy said:


> Get the ones with side pressure plates, they are way better that backstab and connect up fast.


I trust those are the type he saw for 5x as much....


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## MechanicalDVR

telsa said:


> You will search in vain.
> 
> #14 taps are the best you'll be able to pull off... you back-stabber.
> 
> *You're describing Decora* ?
> 
> You're going to be wrapping a lot of wire terminations. It's not that difficult.


Unless he did as I do and pigtailed his receptacles which is cleaner and easier.


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## MechanicalDVR

@roundrightfarm by any chance are these posts of yours all in regard to the same house/project?


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## roundrightfarm

Thanks guys,
It looks like i'll be looping and screwing down. Yes, my recent posts are regarding the same project


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## MechanicalDVR

roundrightfarm said:


> Thanks guys,
> It looks like i'll be looping and screwing down. Yes, my recent posts are regarding the same project


If you pigtail you will only screw down 3 wires on each receptacle.

So we are to assume you have 100+ receptacles between 4 bedrooms and a bathroom?

Why do I get the distinct feeling you are leaving a ton of information out?


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## joebanana

MechanicalDVR said:


> Unless he did as I do and pigtailed his receptacles which is cleaner and easier.


Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


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## MechanicalDVR

roundrightfarm said:


> I have 100 + receptacles to wire up in a house that was run completely with 12 gauge wire. Does anyone make a receptacle that allows 12 gauge to push fit into the back for a reasonable price. I've seen "industrial" rated receptacles that offer this, but they cost 5 times as much.
> 
> Of course, There are plenty that take 14 in the back and require 12 gauge to be looped and screwed down on the side. Were looking for a 12 gauge back stab option for a reasonable price for residential. We are also hoping to find this receptacle in the more modern, square-ish shape, rather than the traditional round.
> 
> Thanks


Quick question roundright, what type of electrical work do you do for a living?


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## Drsparky14

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## MechanicalDVR

Drsparky14 said:


>


Yup them there expensive receptacles................


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## drspec

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


code reference?


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## John M.

You use back stab receptacles? Youre not wiring my house!


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## MechanicalDVR

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


Pigtailing is something I do from wiring up commercial receptacles for years and i carry over to resi as well.

Was never aware there was a requirement to do so.

Have a code reference for that?


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## TGGT

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


I 3rd a code reference, that's news to me. Sounds like a spec, not a code.


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## HackWork

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


You only have to pigtail the neutral in a MWBC.

You can feed thru the tabs on devices. 

This is like the 50th time you posted bad advice. Stop it.

BTW, I am still waiting for you to show me the code requiring romex support to be listed.


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## splatz

I am pretty sure he meant the back wire with pressure plate, not the back stab. 

I have been shopping myself for the best price on a backwire pressure plate type receptacle and it seems like the best deals are on Legrand / P&S with some pretty low prices on the ten packs. 

If you're stuck with cheap receptacles and the standard side terminal, I'd much rather make loops on a stack of pigtails at home than do them one by one at each opening.


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## elecwired

All that back stabbing is just asking for more problems down the road as downstream devices will lose power when a backstabbed device goes bad from a loose connection. A pig tailed connection makes a true series circurit and is a tap off a trunk line even if a device goes bad it will not knock out power to downstream devices. Only a overload or dead short will effect the average circurit breaker. Take into account also that AFCI and GFCI circurit breakers function on there design types.


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## HackWork

I don't like the pressure plate that is under the screw like a washer, especially with #12. It tightens down at a bit of an angle and when you twist the device to shape it into the box the conductor can twist underneath that pressure plate moving it away from the screw a bit in which there is more space. Now the conductor is loose.

I like the kind with the holes in the back like GFCIs have, it's more lug-like and tightens very well.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> I am pretty sure he meant the back wire with pressure plate, not the back stab.
> 
> I have been shopping myself for the best price on a backwire pressure plate type receptacle and it seems like the best deals are on Legrand / P&S with some pretty low prices on the ten packs.
> 
> If you're stuck with cheap receptacles and the standard side terminal, *I'd much rather make loops on a stack of pigtails at home than do them one by one at each opening.*


The type of thing I'd do with a large coffee in front of the tube at night.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> I am pretty sure he meant the back wire with pressure plate, not the back stab.


"Does anyone make a receptacle that allows 12 gauge to *push fit* into the back for a reasonable price"

'Push fit' kind of narrows it way down to back stab.


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## drspec

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


while I think backstabbing is poor practice and I pigtail everything myself, if you weren't "supposed" to feed through the tab, then explain why they have more than one set of screws and backstab holes?


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## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> "Does anyone make a receptacle that allows 12 gauge to *push fit* into the back for a reasonable price"
> 
> 'Push fit' kind of narrows it way down to back stab.


Agreed. Just the fact that he differentiated #12 shows that he is talking about backstabbing. Splatz has been drinking again.


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## MechanicalDVR

elecwired said:


> All that back stabbing is just asking for more problems down the road as downstream devices will lose power when a backstabbed device goes bad from a loose connection. A pig tailed connection makes a true *series* circurit and is a tap off a trunk line even if a device goes bad it will not knock out power to downstream devices. Only a overload or dead short will effect the average circurit breaker. Take into account also that AFCI and GFCI circurit breakers function on there design types.


I think you mean it makes a real *parallel* circuit.

If you lost a device in a series circuit the rest of the devices would be down just like old time Christmas lights!


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> Agreed. Just the fact that he differentiated #12 shows that he is talking about backstabbing. Splatz has been drinking again.


Coffee doesn't count!


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## trentonmakes

HackWork said:


> I don't like the pressure plate that is under the screw like a washer, especially with #12. It tightens down at a bit of an angle and when you twist the device to shape it into the box the conductor can twist underneath that pressure plate moving it away from the screw a bit in which there is more space. Now the conductor is loose.
> 
> I like the kind with the holes in the back like GFCIs have, it's more lug-like and tightens very well.


I tend to use these alot. They do tend to go out of alignment, but if you hold the wire so plate is straight and clamp it down tight, i havent noticed any get loose on me.
I like them because they're much faster but i do tend too take a few seconds to be sure that plate is straight when i crank em down.











Texting and Driving


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## sbrn33

joebanana said:


> Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too. A good project for the shop rocket.


OK, I will bite. Where have you seen where it says not to feed thru the tab?


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## splatz

MechanicalDVR said:


> The type of thing I'd do with a large coffee in front of the tube at night.


I love this pliers all around but the loop hole is perfect, the wire stops in the exact spot to make a perfect loop, you could do it blindfolded. 

So with a stripper with a stop for the strip length and this pliers I can make 100 pigtails in half an hour without breaking a sweat.


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## Chris1971

roundrightfarm said:


> I have 100 + receptacles to wire up in a house that was run completely with 12 gauge wire. Does anyone make a receptacle that allows 12 gauge to push fit into the back for a reasonable price. I've seen "industrial" rated receptacles that offer this, but they cost 5 times as much.
> 
> Of course, There are plenty that take 14 in the back and require 12 gauge to be looped and screwed down on the side. Were looking for a 12 gauge back stab option for a reasonable price for residential. We are also hoping to find this receptacle in the more modern, square-ish shape, rather than the traditional round.
> 
> Thanks



Install all AFCI receptacles. You can back wire them.:thumbsup:


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## electricguy

trentonmakes said:


> I tend to use these alot. They do tend to go out of alignment, but if you hold the wire so plate is straight and clamp it down tight, i havent noticed any get loose on me.
> I like them because they're much faster but i do tend too take a few seconds to be sure that plate is straight when i crank em down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texting and Driving


I snicker when i see some diy-er has has wrapped the wire around the screw


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> I love this pliers all around but the loop hole is perfect, the wire stops in the exact spot to make a perfect loop, you could do it blindfolded.
> 
> So with a stripper with a stop for the strip length and this pliers I can make 100 pigtails in half an hour without breaking a sweat.


You just had to post those...............I've been eyeballing them for a while now, I may just have to bite.


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## Drsparky14

HackWork said:


> You only have to pigtail the neutral in a MWBC.
> 
> 
> 
> You can feed thru the tabs on devices.
> 
> 
> 
> This is like the 50th time you posted bad advice. Stop it.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I am still waiting for you to show me the code requiring romex support to be listed.




Romex support doesn't have to be listed. 


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## Drsparky14

Also they make outlets where you pigtail the flying lead and then it just plugs directly into the back of the outlet. Those work to save time as well as outlets with stranded wires already attached. 


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## MechanicalDVR

Drsparky14 said:


> Also they make outlets where you pigtail the flying lead and then it just plugs directly into the back of the outlet. *Those work to save time as well as outlets with stranded wires already attached. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who sells those?


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## HackWork

Romex Racer didn't like those devices.

Cheetah.


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## HackWork

Drsparky14 said:


> Romex support doesn't have to be listed.


Yup, everyone agrees except for joebanana.


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## splatz

MechanicalDVR said:


> You just had to post those...............I've been eyeballing them for a while now, I may just have to bite.


With the collection you have, you can't possibly draw the line at this, the most awesome all in one pliers ever made.


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## HackWork

I put my finger over the back of the hole on my strippers, makes perfect loops.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> With the collection you have, you can't possibly draw the line at this, the most awesome all in one pliers ever made.


Just never been a fan of multi-type tools but I keep looking at those thinking they look like they'd work well, then read a few bad reviews but I'll grab a set on my next Depot trip.


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## drspec

HackWork said:


> I put my finger over the back of the hole on my strippers, makes perfect loops.


I just use the tip of my milwaukee combination pliers to make perfect loops


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## splatz

Drsparky14 said:


> Also they make outlets where you pigtail the flying lead and then it just plugs directly into the back of the outlet. Those work to save time as well as outlets with stranded wires already attached.





MechanicalDVR said:


> Who sells those?


Sounds like this Leviton - when I asked about pricing on these they were ridiculous, way past the labor savings.


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## MechanicalDVR

splatz said:


> Sounds like this Leviton - when I asked about pricing on these they were ridiculous, way past the labor savings.


Link doesn't work.


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## Southeast Power

If you can't pigtail them with wagos down to a #14,

Give it the ol handiman try:

This whole apartment had#12 and they were all jammed into the release hole.


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## MechanicalDVR

Southeast Power said:


> If you can't pigtail them with wagos down to a #14,
> 
> Give it the ol handiman try:
> 
> This whole apartment had#12 and they were all jammed into the release hole.


Damn, well at least the guy was consistent!


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## lighterup

I use red wire nuts , pigtail the hot neutral & ground , then strip 3/4" of 
thhn off , hook it around terminal screw . close hook tighten screw with 
my Dewalt set at about 7.

I'm just curious as to why its okay to use the stab ins on all the recess 
cans that are out now , but not the ones on receptacle outlets and switches?


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## Going_Commando

Lol.


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## telsa

lighterup said:


> i use red wire nuts , pigtail the hot neutral & ground , then strip 3/4" of
> thhn off , hook it around terminal screw . Close hook tighten screw with
> my dewalt set at about 7.
> 
> I'm just curious as to why its okay to use the stab ins on all the recess
> cans that are out now , but not the ones on receptacle outlets and switches?


Amps.


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## Going_Commando

telsa said:


> Amps.


Could you please cite the differences in allowable current flows between 20A lighting circuits and 20A receptacle circuits please? Thanks!


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## MechanicalDVR

Going_Commando said:


> Could you please cite the differences in allowable current flows between 20A lighting circuits and 20A receptacle circuits please? Thanks!


Cause those LEDs sure don't draw 20 amps.


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> I use red wire nuts , pigtail the hot neutral & ground , then strip 3/4" of
> thhn off , hook it around terminal screw . close hook tighten screw with
> my Dewalt set at about 7.
> 
> I'm just curious as to why its okay to use the stab ins on all the recess
> cans that are out now , but not the ones on receptacle outlets and switches?


Backstabbing is just fine. 

Everyone has their own opinion, but mine is the only one that counts.


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## Going_Commando

MechanicalDVR said:


> Cause those LEDs sure don't draw 20 amps.


I know plenty of contractors that still install incandescent lamps in recessed cans.


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## lighterup

telsa said:


> Amps.


okay. now I run all receptacles in 12 awg , but buy 15 amp resi grade 
unless customer wants 20 amp TR upgrade which is rare. Very rare.
(BTW-I'm speaking strictly about residential jobs right now)

So , running 12 awg , I couldn't back stab the outlet receptacles if 
I wanted to.

But for those using 14 awg , ocp is a 15 amp breaker , maximum 
allowed is 12 amps per NEC///they could back stab . Are you just
saying no as a precaution cause Happy HO may load up the circuit?


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## MechanicalDVR

Going_Commando said:


> I know plenty of contractors that still install incandescent lamps in recessed cans.


And each bulb draws 20 amps?


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## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> okay. now I run all receptacles in 12 awg , but buy 15 amp resi grade
> unless customer wants 20 amp TR upgrade which is rare. Very rare.
> (BTW-I'm speaking strictly about residential jobs right now)
> 
> So , running 12 awg , I couldn't back stab the outlet receptacles if
> I wanted to.
> 
> But for those using 14 awg , ocp is a 15 amp breaker , maximum
> allowed is 12 amps per NEC///they could back stab . Are you just
> saying no as a precaution cause Happy HO may load up the circuit?


Backstabs have had a bad reputation for loose or weak connections forever when compared to wires under screw connections.


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> okay. *now I run all receptacles in 12 awg* , but buy 15 amp resi grade
> unless customer wants 20 amp TR upgrade which is rare. Very rare.
> (BTW-I'm speaking strictly about residential jobs right now)
> 
> So , running 12 awg , I couldn't back stab the outlet receptacles if
> I wanted to.
> 
> But for those using 14 awg , ocp is a 15 amp breaker , *maximum
> allowed is 12 amps per NEC*///they could back stab . Are you just
> saying no as a precaution cause Happy HO may load up the circuit?


Why do you run #12 for receptacle circuits?

Why do you still believe in this 80% thing? Can you show me the NEC article limiting a 15A circuit to 12A?


BTW, the only thing you will find will be talking about a single cord&plug connected appliance.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> Why do you run #12 for receptacle circuits?
> 
> Why do you still believe in this 80% thing? Can you show me the NEC article limiting a 15A circuit to 12A?
> 
> 
> BTW, the only thing you will find will be talking about a single cord&plug connected appliance.


What I'm going by is 210.21 *Outlet devices* (B) (2)"where connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or more receptacle outlets , a receptacle shall not supply a total load in excess ofthe maximum specified in Table 210.12(B)_(2) which has 3 columns , from left to right , circuit rating amperes , receptacle
rating amperes and maximum load_

why are you so mad at me?


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> What I'm going by is 210.21 *Outlet devices* (B) (2)"where connected to a branch circuit supplying 2 or more receptacle outlets , a receptacle shall not supply a total load in excess ofthe maximum specified in Table 210.12(B)_(2) which has 3 columns , from left to right , circuit rating amperes , receptacle
> rating amperes and maximum load_
> 
> why are you so mad at me?


I'm not mad, I just wish you would stop posting incorrect code after it's been explained to you that it's incorrect.

The table you cited is talking about a single cord and plug connected load. As I said in my last post, that is talking about a single appliance. And as many of us explained to you in the other thread, you are way off base with your 80% thing.

Again, I am not mad, I love you more than life itself. I just need you to listen to reason and forget what that hack taught you.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> I'm not mad, I just wish you would stop posting incorrect code after it's been explained to you that it's incorrect.
> 
> The table you cited is talking about a single cord and plug connected load. As I said in my last post, that is talking about a single appliance. And as many of us explained to you in the other thread, you are way off base with your 80% thing.
> 
> Again, I am not mad, I love you more than life itself. I just need you to listen to reason and forget what that hack taught you.


Okay ..(wiping away my tears...do you hate me?)

Explain to me ..it states "where 2 or more receptacles" etc..
Are you saying that as long as we load up (let's say there are (6) outlet receptacles on the circuit and you ran 14 awg). ,, if you keep the
cord & plug connected loads to 11 amperes on each outlet , it's okay?

and as far as me posting incorrect codes , I promise you , I do not
know one single EC here in Ohio that would disagree with me on
this code and would not agree with you.


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> Okay ..(wiping away my tears...do you hate me?)
> 
> Explain to me ..it states "where 2 or more receptacles" etc..
> Are you saying that as long as we load up (let's say there are (6) outlet receptacles on the circuit and you ran 14 awg). ,, if you keep the
> cord & plug connected loads to 11 amperes on each outlet , it's okay?
> 
> and as far as me posting incorrect codes , I promise you , I do not
> know one single EC here in Ohio that would disagree with me on
> this code and would not agree with you.


This thread starter thought the same thing that you do, the rest of the posters cleared it up for him: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66819


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> This thread starter thought the same thing that you do, the rest of the posters cleared it up for him: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66819


Thanx. I read it and I see what your saying , but one thing
that thread showed is it may be a regional frame of mind ...
I believe this particular interpretation came through one of my 
code classes many years ago.

I can say this ...the standards I'm using have never started a fire
and I'm going to continue to use them . Have a nice night. I'm tired
and logging off now.


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> Thanx. I read it and I see what your saying , but one thing
> that thread showed is it may be a regional frame of mind ...
> I believe this particular interpretation came through one of my
> code classes many years ago.
> 
> I can say this ...the standards I'm using have never started a fire
> and I'm going to continue to use them . Have a nice night. I'm tired
> and logging off now.


You can make up any rule you want and follow any set of personal standards you choose. You just can't say that the NEC requires it like you have been.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> You can make up any rule you want and follow any set of personal standards you choose. You just can't say that the NEC requires it like you have been.


You being mean again? :whistling2:


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## mvigneux

drspec said:


> while I think backstabbing is poor practice and I pigtail everything myself, if you weren't "supposed" to feed through the tab, then explain why they have more than one set of screws and backstab holes?




Half switched outlets and split kitchen counter outlets, it's a carry over from the olden days


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> You can make up any rule you want and follow any set of personal standards you choose. You just can't say that the NEC requires it like you have been.


I'm not making it up. This is what EC's and code instructors here in 
my area say and teach.

This is an electricians talk forum. We are talking to guys all around the
country (and world). Code interpretation varies here from county to
county even city to city. Can you imagine how it varies state to state?


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## HackWork

MechanicalDVR said:


> You being mean again? :whistling2:


The two of you need to go to your safe spaces.

I bet you wire all outlet circuits with #12 too just cause some tard teaching an Ohio course lied about it being an NEC requirement.

OMG, Triggered :laughing:


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> I'm not making it up. This is what EC's and code instructors here in
> my area say and teach.


 I didn't mean it like you made it up, I was saying that you can make up any standard that you want to use, we all do. I do things certain ways for no other reason than I want them that way. That is fine.



> This is an electricians talk forum. We are talking to guys all around the
> country (and world). Code interpretation varies here from county to
> county even city to city. Can you imagine how it varies state to state?


This is where the problem begins.

It doesn't matter where you are located, there is no interpretation issue going on here. The people teaching these courses you keep talking about are teaching you the wrong thing. 

You can choose to do it your way, and they can teach their way. But no one can say that it is code. That's the only contention that I have here: "_maximum allowed is 12 amps *per NEC*_" :no:


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## flyboy

roundrightfarm said:


> Thanks guys,
> It looks like i'll be looping and screwing down. Yes, my recent posts are regarding the same project


You back stabbing slut 

To keep your membership on ET you are forbidden to ever back-stab another receptacle.

Further, we want you to go back and re-do all the jobs you back-stabbed.


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## sbrn33

I am with hax on this one. I hate it when people run 12 for general purpose resi circuits. There is no real need for it and 12 is just another pain in the CS that I don't need. 
Plus it trips waaay faster when a cheap lamp cord or something like that goes bad. Hell I would rather run a couple extra 15 amp circuits if anything.


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## MechanicalDVR

HackWork said:


> The two of you need to go to your safe spaces.
> 
> I bet you wire all outlet circuits with #12 too just cause some tard teaching an Ohio course lied about it being an NEC requirement.
> 
> OMG, Triggered :laughing:
> 
> 
> View attachment 111057


You should know me better than that by now bro.

No need to toss out the wasted tranny pic!


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## Going_Commando

MechanicalDVR said:


> Going_Commando said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty of contractors that still install incandescent lamps in recessed cans.
> 
> 
> 
> And each bulb draws 20 amps?
Click to expand...

Are you even paying attention? Do you run a separate circuit to each recessed can? They guy was asking the difference between backstabbing receptacles and using the wagos that come with recessed cans.


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## Going_Commando

sbrn33 said:


> I am with hax on this one. I hate it when people run 12 for general purpose resi circuits. There is no real need for it and 12 is just another pain in the CS that I don't need.
> Plus it trips waaay faster when a cheap lamp cord or something like that goes bad. Hell I would rather run a couple extra 15 amp circuits if anything.


I tend to agree. My old man's philosophy is to run fewer circuits and run them in 12 so you can use fewer afci's. I'd just as soon rope it in 14 and sell more afci's. When we used to do rewires we would do receptacles in 12 since it gave you more wiggle room with space heaters and window a/c's in old houses. He learned from my Gramp who's rule was "receptacles in 12 and lights in 14", but that was back when copper bent easier.


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## Southeast Power

I was brought up using pipe and wire, mostly #12.
I didnt see any romex until I became a journeyman and started doing service work.
Also, we didnt see MC cable here the first 20 years I was in the trade.

For me, I despise #12 wire, its like working with a copper nail.

As for the OP, I would pigtail that useless #12 down to #14 and backstab everyone of those 15 amp devices. 
I do have a little heartburn pig-tailing it down when using 15amp devices on a 20 amp circuit appliance circuit.


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## Southeast Power

flyboy said:


> You back stabbing slut
> 
> To keep your membership on ET you are forbidden to ever back-stab another receptacle.
> 
> Further, we want you to go back and re-do all the jobs you back-stabbed.


Ok, now on to pre-twisting and device taping.


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## roundrightfarm

Hi Guys,
I'm not sure what the difference is, but by back stabbing, I am referring to the push fit terminations for 14 gauge wire found on the back of most residential receptacles. I apologize if backstabbing refers to another technique.

Thanks for the discussion on pigtailing. I had not considered this.


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## roundrightfarm

I think of running 12 as installing a more robust system. It can handle more so is less likely to cause a nuisance to the occupant. Who knows what someone will plug into a receptacle. With 12, the circuit is better ready to handle the unexpected large load. 

If someone decides they really need a large load at a receptacle, for whatever reason, it is a much bigger pain to rewire it than it is to pay a little more up front and put in 12. It's the same logic that says if you are going to bury conduit, you should go a size of two larger than you currently need. Who knows how a buildings loads may change in the future. Conduit is cheap compared to redigging a trench.


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## telsa

roundrightfarm said:


> I think of running 12 as installing a more robust system. It can handle more so is less likely to cause a nuisance to the occupant. Who knows what someone will plug into a receptacle. With 12, the circuit is better ready to handle the unexpected large load.
> 
> If someone decides they really need a large load at a receptacle, for whatever reason, it is a much bigger pain to rewire it than it is to pay a little more up front and put in 12. It's the same logic that says if you are going to bury conduit, you should go a size of two larger than you currently need. Who knows how a buildings loads may change in the future. Conduit is cheap compared to redigging a trench.


You _crazy_, a Tract EC HAS to stay with 14-2 Romex.

Due to the rules changes, 14-3 is now a freak cable. 

Time was, it'd be what everyone would favor. ( homeruns )


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## roundrightfarm

Since were having a discussion about push fittings in receptacles, how does everyone feel about the push-in wire connectors (2,3 or 4 port) versus using a wire nut?


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## telsa

roundrightfarm said:


> Since were having a discussion about push fittings in receptacles, how does everyone feel about the push-in wire connectors (2,3 or 4 port) versus using a wire nut?


Time for a Fresh Thread.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> I didn't mean it like you made it up, I was saying that you can make up any standard that you want to use, we all do. I do things certain ways for no other reason than I want them that way. That is fine.
> 
> 
> This is where the problem begins.
> 
> It doesn't matter where you are located, there is no interpretation issue going on here. The people teaching these courses you keep talking about are teaching you the wrong thing.
> 
> You can choose to do it your way, and they can teach their way. But no one can say that it is code. That's the only contention that I have here: "_maximum allowed is 12 amps *per NEC*_" :no:


I understand. Just FYI..when you are talking to someone state
licensed in Ohio , keep in mind that the RCO is residential code of Ohio
and then there is a separate commercial building code of Ohio.
The NEC is a reference manual here.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> The two of you need to go to your safe spaces.
> 
> I bet you wire all outlet circuits with #12 too just cause some tard teaching an Ohio course lied about it being an NEC requirement.
> 
> OMG, Triggered :laughing:
> 
> 
> View attachment 111057


No I can use 14 awg if i want. 
I use 12 awg cause it's a standard up from what my hacker competition id oing
HA HA HA HA!


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## lighterup

Going_Commando said:


> I tend to agree. My old man's philosophy is to run fewer circuits and run them in 12 so you can use fewer afci's. I'd just as soon rope it in 14 and sell more afci's. When we used to do rewires we would do receptacles in 12 since it gave you more wiggle room with space heaters and window a/c's in old houses. He learned from my Gramp who's rule was "receptacles in 12 and lights in 14", but that was back when copper bent easier.


you young bucks:no:


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> I understand. Just FYI..when you are talking to someone state
> licensed in Ohio , keep in mind that the RCO is residential code of Ohio
> and then there is a separate commercial building code of Ohio.
> The NEC is a reference manual here.


Understood. Many states have amendments. 

I am only making an assumption here, but I would say that this thing about the 80% is your instructor/s misunderstanding the code and not a state level amendment. 

I will also reiterate that you are the one who said "_per NEC_".


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## lighterup

roundrightfarm said:


> I think of running 12 as installing a more robust system. It can handle more so is less likely to cause a nuisance to the occupant. Who knows what someone will plug into a receptacle. With 12, the circuit is better ready to handle the unexpected large load.
> 
> If someone decides they really need a large load at a receptacle, for whatever reason, it is a much bigger pain to rewire it than it is to pay a little more up front and put in 12. It's the same logic that says if you are going to bury conduit, you should go a size of two larger than you currently need. Who knows how a buildings loads may change in the future. Conduit is cheap compared to redigging a trench.


Thank You!..that's what I'm sayin ..yeeeeah buooy!


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> No I can use 14 awg if i want.
> I use 12 awg cause it's a standard up from what my hacker competition id oing
> HA HA HA HA!


As many others here have stated, wiring general receptacle circuits in #12 is not really a "standard up". It's more of a disservice to the customer for making them pay extra for something that doesn't actually give them any real world benefit.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> Understood. Many states have amendments.
> 
> I am only making an assumption here, but I would say that this thing about the 80% is your instructor/s misunderstanding the code and not a state level amendment.
> 
> I will also reiterate that you are the one who said "_per NEC_".


That's it! next time I go east . I'm gonna hunt you down!:laughing:


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> As many others here have stated, wiring general receptacle circuits in #12 is not really a "standard up". It's more of a disservice to the customer for making them pay extra for something that doesn't actually give them any real world benefit.


Pleeease


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> That's it! next time I go east . I'm gonna hunt you down!:laughing:


Why? What's the problem?

Why are you so passionate about fooling yourself into thinking this fictitious 80% rule you limit _everything_ to is code?


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## lighterup

hackwork said:


> why? What's the problem?
> 
> Why are you so passionate about fooling yourself into thinking this fictitious 80% rule you limit _everything_ to is code?


80% rules! Ha ha ha ha!


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> 80% rules! Ha ha ha ha!


I fart in your general direction.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> I fart in your general direction.


Now that's more like it. I promise I quote codes anymore. Love U:tt2:


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> Now that's more like it. I promise I quote codes anymore. Love U:tt2:


It's going to take a little more than that to love you again.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> It's going to take a little more than that to love you again.


Fine ... be a bitch


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> Fine ... be a bitch




Your words cut like a knife.


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## flyboy

Southeast Power said:


> Ok, now on to pre-twisting and device taping.


Yeah! Let's expose those trunk slamming loser hacks and get them out of here.


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## joebanana

drspec said:


> code reference?


Not so much a code requirement as a "best practices"/Co. policy/personal standard.
Many many moons ago, I was trained to never back stab receps. It showed a sign of weakness, and a deviation from "quality", and led to possible problems in the future.
I guess it stems from many years of commercial construction, where stranded (MTW) wire was the norm. We could either use Sta-kons, or pigtail solid to the runs to use the screw terminals on the receps. So, everything got pigtailed, multi-wire or not. Besides it makes a cleaner install.
When I was running the trouble truck is when I learned to hate back stabbed anything.
As for feeding through the tab, I had been told that the tab is only to connect the top, and bottom of the duplex recep., and provide a convenient way to split wire it, not to carry downstream load (cross sectional area). Maybe that's changed.
I didn't say it can't be used to feed through, just that it's not supposed to be used for that.


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## HackWork

joebanana said:


> *Gotta* pigtail the neuch anyhow, and *you're not supposed to* feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too.





drspec said:


> code reference?





joebanana said:


> Not so much a code requirement as a "best practices"/Co. policy/personal standard.


So if it's only your opinion on what the best practice is, then you shouldn't be telling people that they "_Gotta pigtail the neutral_" and that they're "_not supposed to feed thru the tab_".

It's absurd that this would even have to be said. So many people think they can post their own opinion as installation requirements and tell others that they have to abide by it.


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## Going_Commando

joebanana said:


> Not so much a code requirement as a "best practices"/Co. policy/personal standard.
> Many many moons ago, I was trained to never back stab receps. It showed a sign of weakness, and a deviation from "quality", and led to possible problems in the future.
> I guess it stems from many years of commercial construction, where stranded (MTW) wire was the norm. We could either use Sta-kons, or pigtail solid to the runs to use the screw terminals on the receps. So, everything got pigtailed, multi-wire or not. Besides it makes a cleaner install.
> When I was running the trouble truck is when I learned to hate back stabbed anything.
> As for feeding through the tab, I had been told that the tab is only to connect the top, and bottom of the duplex recep., and provide a convenient way to split wire it, not to carry downstream load (cross sectional area). Maybe that's changed.
> I didn't say it can't be used to feed through, just that it's not supposed to be used for that.


Nobody ever taught you to strip back the stranded, twist the strands counter clockwise, bend your loop, slap them under the screw, pinch them with pliers, and hold them snug when you tightened down the screw? It's super easy and takes longer to type out than to actually do. 

The tabs on a 15A receptacle are still rated 20A feed through. I don't see the point in wasting wirenuts just to make yourself feel better. It is designed to be done that way, just read the instructions for the device.


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## Going_Commando

telsa said:


> You _crazy_, a Tract EC HAS to stay with 14-2 Romex.
> 
> Due to the rules changes, 14-3 is now a freak cable.
> 
> Time was, it'd be what everyone would favor. ( homeruns )


Do you even 3-way and 4-way switches bro? There is more 14-3 in a tract house than 12-2. The ones I have done lately for fill in time helping another contractor are 3/2 1800 sq ft tract houses. It takes about 1500' of 14-2, 750' of 14-3, and 250' of 12-2. Switched outlets in bedrooms and the living room, boobie lights in hallways, laundry room, and stairwells, 4 cans in the kitchen, and 2 in the porch ceiling. The 14-3 feeds were tit, though.


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## MechanicalDVR

joebanana said:


> Not so much a code requirement as *a "best practices"*/Co. policy/personal standard.
> Many many moons ago, *I was trained to never back stab receps.* It showed a sign of weakness, and a deviation from "quality", and led to possible problems in the future.
> *I guess it stems from many years of commercial construction, where stranded (MTW) wire was the norm.* We could either use Sta-kons, or pigtail solid to the runs to use the screw terminals on the receps. So, *everything got pigtailed*, multi-wire or not. Besides it makes a cleaner install.
> *When I was running the trouble truck is when I learned to hate back stabbed anything.*
> As for feeding through the tab, I had been told that the tab is only to connect the top, and bottom of the duplex recep., and provide a convenient way to split wire it, not to carry downstream load (cross sectional area). Maybe that's changed.
> I didn't say it can't be used to feed through, just that it's not supposed to be used for that.


I agree with most of what you said and came up the same way.

Not feeding through the tab I think someone was yanking your chain.


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## telsa

Backstabbing = TRACT standards -- rushed production -- noobs that wouldn't even qualify as apprentices -- trimming out residential Romex -- wearing track shoes.

We all get that.

For non-Tract electricians, back-stabbing makes ZERO sense.

For us, even using Tract trims makes no sense.

I ONLY touch Specification Grade trims.

1) No call-backs

2) Can spot our trims from a distance

3) I've just charged the customer *$$$* -- why am I not spending *$* on a receptacle ?


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## splatz

telsa said:


> I ONLY touch Specification Grade trims.
> 
> 1) No call-backs
> 
> 2) Can spot our trims from a distance
> 
> 3) I've just charged the customer *$$$* -- why am I not spending *$* on a receptacle ?


:thumbsup:

AND 4) installs quicker 

You want to charge large, don't trip over nickels.


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## lighterup

Am i understanding that there are a lot of electricians that
run their outlet receptacle circuits in series by back stabbing 
both the incoming backstabs and then back stab the outgoing
NM through the 2nd set of holes ?

I'm not trolling. I just have never done this . I do see it 
in knob & tube.


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## Going_Commando

lighterup said:


> Am i understanding that there are a lot of electricians that
> run their outlet receptacle circuits in series by back stabbing
> both the incoming backstabs and then back stab the outgoing
> NM through the 2nd set of holes ?
> 
> I'm not trolling. I just have never done this . I do see it
> in knob & tube.


Some people do. I've never done it.


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## HackWork

Going_Commando said:


> Some people do. I've never done it.


I've done it a few times when just wanting to get out of there or being in a bad position or short wires, etc.

I do it more often on lights.


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## MechanicalDVR

lighterup said:


> Am i understanding that there are a lot of electricians that
> run their outlet receptacle circuits in series by back stabbing
> both the incoming backstabs and then back stab the outgoing
> NM through the 2nd set of holes ?
> 
> I'm not trolling. I just have never done this . I do see it
> in knob & tube.


I've never done that either, to me backstabbing is HO/hack.

I've pigtailed as long as I can remember.

Romex is something I never carried on my service truck either.

First used it in resi jobs when working with friends which was side jobbing for me.


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## lighterup

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've never done that either, to me backstabbing is HO/hack.
> 
> I've pigtailed as long as I can remember.
> 
> Romex is something I never carried on my service truck either.
> 
> First used it in resi jobs when working with friends which was side jobbing for me.


Hax ..your gonna love this , so I preface by saying I HAVE NO CODE 
reference , but our building departments will not pass a rough-in without
seeing the make ups done . (definition of make ups = wire nutted splices
completed in every box with tails at least 8" long).

If they found I was wiring in series , that would get me red tag.


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> Hax ..your gonna love this , so I preface by saying I HAVE NO CODE
> reference , but our building departments will not pass a rough-in without
> seeing the make ups done . (definition of make ups = wire nutted splices
> completed in every box with tails at least 8" long).
> 
> If they found I was wiring in series , that would get me red tag.


The AHJ has the ability to make that decision. 

Here we go by the NEC with little change.


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## RePhase277

Whether I backstab or not depends on how much they're paying.


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## lighterup

RePhase277 said:


> Whether I backstab or not depends on how much they're paying.


I was just accused of overcharging for using 12 awg . So richer
people get a better job than middle class?


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## HackWork

lighterup said:


> I was just accused of overcharging for using 12 awg . So richer
> people get a better job than middle class?


You can't rape the willing.


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## readydave8

I see a lot more backstabs that have failed than I do ones that haven't

Partly because something that still works does not generate many service calls

But I've seen way more loose backstabs than I have loose on screw terminals


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## Going_Commando

HackWork said:


> I've done it a few times when just wanting to get out of there or being in a bad position or short wires, etc.
> 
> I do it more often on lights.


Lights and switching are different. If a switch is already fed, loops are full, craploads of wires under the hot wirenut and stuff, and I am just picking up to add another switch or something that is only going to run 1 light, I have been known to just say f*ck it and backstab into one of the switches.


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## RePhase277

lighterup said:


> I was just accused of overcharging for using 12 awg . So richer
> people get a better job than middle class?


No. I said what they're willing to pay, I didn't say what they were able to pay. Believe me, plenty of rich douche bags have gotten the "lower tier pricing option" while a few shacks have gotten the Cadillac of electrical installs.


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## HackWork

RePhase277 said:


> No. I said what they're willing to pay, I didn't say what they were able to pay. Believe me, plenty of rich douche bags have gotten the "lower tier pricing option" while a few shacks have gotten the Cadillac of electrical installs.


You're too late. He got butthurt again and took it to 4 other threads.


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## lighterup

HackWork said:


> You're too late. He got butthurt again and took it to 4 other threads.


beeatcha


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## HackWork

If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right.


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## MechanicalDVR

readydave8 said:


> I see a lot more backstabs that have failed than I do ones that haven't
> 
> Partly because something that still works does not generate many service calls
> 
> But I've seen way more loose backstabs than I have loose on screw terminals


Funny how a little bit of heat from a poor connection will just make the connection that much worse...


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## dc-electric

If you're even asking that question you should not be changing outlets...

Even wrapping the screw will cause problem because you don't know what your doing


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## macmikeman

I don't mind so much running into residential installs of 12-2 receptacle outlets, but when they drift that wire size over to the lighting switches and fixtures I wanna snap their necks.


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## chicken steve

The old backstabbers took #12, the modern ones only #14 

This is because UL _(in their infinite wisdom)_ _changed_ the standard , the philosophy being BS'ing _failed_ via heavier dedicated 20A loads

Standard for Attachment Plugs and Receptacles

They didn't _nix_ it across the board, due to the prefab-cabal , who's influence reaches past the CMP's they've infiltrated to the NRTL's 

~CS~


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## eddy current

Worked for this guy who was a serious pack rat. Made us keep receptacles, boxes and fittings from a demo to re use in the new fit-up.
He was a great foreman, made the EC lots of money, but using old receptacles? Not saving the company any money there. Drove me nuts!!!


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