# GFCI Receptacles on AFCI Breakers



## xpertpc (Oct 11, 2012)

first refrigerators are not required to be on a gfi, second many older refrigerators will trip a gfi. third s


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

xpertpc said:


> first refrigerators are not required to be on a gfi, second many older refrigerators will trip a gfi. third s


it is req. in the 2014 nec if the refrig. is within 6' of the sink

Theqr is no issue installing a circuit that has both afci and gfci protection. In fact, most afci breakers have gfp in them.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> 210.8 A (6) *Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
> Personnel. *
> 
> 
> ...



So it would appear that a _sole refer circuit_ needs to be on a combo afci (basically 30ma gfpe), but not a gfci receptacle outlet 

The only other possible argument is _'readily accessible'_ means of disconnect for utilization equipment. Meaning having to move the refer to unplug it

~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Unless this is also true Steve, the fride does get the additional protection. 


> (5)Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Which 210.52 C 5 would seem to address.....>

*(5) Receptacle Outlet Location.* Receptacle outlets shall 
be located on or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) 
above, the countertop. Receptacle outlet assemblies listed 
for the application shall be permitted to be installed in 
countertops. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appiances fastened in place, appliance garages, 
sinks, or rangetops as covered in 21 0.s2(C)(1), Exception, 
or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be con-
sidered as these required outlets. 

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> Unless this is also true Steve, the fride does get the additional protection.



I'm tyring to get around having a gfci receptacle _behind_ a refer Mshow....

~CS~


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I'm tyring to get around having a gfci receptacle _behind_ a refer Mshow....
> 
> ~CS~


my guess is that the refrg will end up on the counter receptacle. i plan on adding one recep. near the refrig that will be tied to the refrig.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> I'm tyring to get around having a gfci receptacle behind a refer Mshow....
> 
> ~CS~


Dual function breakers. They are cheaper tham buying an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle anyway.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Dual function breakers. They are cheaper tham buying an afci breaker and a gfci receptacle anyway.


But I beleive sq d is the only company currently making them. 
....I hope I am wrong about that


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Which 210.52 C 5 would seem to address.....>
> 
> *(5) Receptacle Outlet Location.* Receptacle outlets shall
> be located on or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.)
> ...


Maybe you're on to something here. 


> Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Mshow1323 said:


> But I beleive sq d is the only company currently making them.
> ....I hope I am wrong about that


Siemens has them too.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> my guess is that the refrg will end up on the counter receptacle. i plan on adding one recep. near the refrig that will be tied to the refrig.


More than likely the '14 will have us all eventually following suit Denny. 


Even my ahj told me to get used to the idea _(i don't think he's any more excited about it than i am)_


But i'm still in denial , and will have to post another page or two of nec articles and ex's trying to weasle out of it....

~CS~


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Going_Commando said:


> Siemens has them too.


Cool, I can go back to my go-to panel.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

GE makes them too>>>

http://www.geindustrial.com/product...d-fault-combination-arc-fault-circuit-breaker

they call it a *DFCI* , many alt acronyms come to mind....:whistling2:

this piece (at the bottom of the GE page) is news to me.....



> *Self-test Feature*
> The DFCI has a self-test feature that meets a June 2015 requirement from UL on all ground fault circuit breakers. This self test feature enables the DFCI to automatically and continuously test itself to ensure that it is working properly. If it is detected that the device has been compromised, the device trips itself in a lockout mode. Once in the lockout mode the breaker cannot be reset and must be replaced. This effort was system guarantees that only the best protection is given at all times.



~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> GE makes them too>>>
> 
> http://www.geindustrial.com/product...d-fault-combination-arc-fault-circuit-breaker
> 
> ...


Why is history repeating itself with GE? When AFCI's were first introduced, GE label slapped a Siemens breaker until they introduced their own. Now, it appears they are doing the exact same thing once again.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> GE makes them too>>>
> 
> http://www.geindustrial.com/product...d-fault-combination-arc-fault-circuit-breaker
> 
> ...


sweet, another feature that will not work


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## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

*Ridiculous !*

Anyone else think this whole idea is getting a bit ridiculous ! 

Do we need a poll for this ?

Someone is making money over this stupidity !!!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It makes me wonder what the next code cycle will bring to upstage it all Old Timer

maybe breakers that talk back, like every other friggin' piece of technology?

~CS~


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Welcome to the New World Order. It only bla bla bla................


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

onilozay said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone has ever experienced any problems putting GFCI receptacles on an AFCI circuit? It relates to an inspector telling me in Albany CA that all Kitchen Circuits need to be on AFCI. My 1st though was well AFCI for the lights and regular receptacles, but not the
> ...


California is not on the 2014, so it is not required. Unless they have a local adoption of the 2014.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok, let me answer the op's question. NO. I have been wiring outside receptacle outlets off of afci circuits that also feed outlets in bedrooms, living rooms, or similar setups for a number of years with no issues other than the stupid afci problems that crept in with various brands and models. Would have made no difference if there was no gfi receptacle outlets in the system or not, those way back afci breakers were garbage. There should be a class action suit to recover the cost back to the homeowners for having to pay for junk that was forced onto them as test alpha and beta equipment.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

A CA suit's been pursued Mac.

~CS~


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## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

Thanks all, didn't get back to this post till much later, after holidays took their toll!


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## McDaniel8402 (Jan 14, 2014)

I'd like to revive this thread a bit, and hopefully get some clarification. I've been in the electrical business since the late 90s/early 2000s, but i've been away from wiring houses since early 2000s. 

I've been digging into the 2014 NEC, and the AFCI requirements for houses really has me scratching my head.

Am I understanding this correctly, with regards to the requirements for AFCI protection on nearly all of the 120V 15A & 20A circuits? Did the cost of installing a residential panel full of 20A single pole breakers really just go into orbit? $5 breakers vs $40 breakers? 

My "day job" is exclusively heavy industry, high voltage engineering. I am also a licensed master electrician. I am looking into side work in residential and light commercial wiring, and i'd like to avoid having installations get flagged over code violations, but i'm a little baffled over whether the cost of a residential service panel has just gone from a few hundred bucks to closer to $1000 by the time you outfit it with AFCI breakers.


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## onilozay (Jun 16, 2013)

Thanks the input, lively discussion! yes much $$$ being made on AFs';|


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