# I Didn't Know Playskool Made Testers...



## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Found one of the guys using this to test for voltage in a 480V disconnect:









I should've included something for scale, that thing isn't much larger than a cell phone. It's Cat II at 500V. We have a very strict Cat IV 600V policy, and even the helpers have Cat IV Fluke testers. 

Absolutely zero isolation between voltage and current/continuity/resistance scales, the only difference between high impedance and a short circuit is a click of the dial. No category marking on the leads at all. 

And here I was just bragging about how easy it is to get these guys to understand and abide by safety standards. 
:wallbash: :wallbash:

-John


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

I think those are the meters our phone guys use- I am not kidding. One day I asked Sue for his meter and he handed me that- I asked "are you s#ittin' me"?

He got that teary eyed hurt look.


John, if this was a new guy- you gotta explain facts. 

We all know meters can be pricey, and his knowledge may be short and the budget may be real tight. I think I would have given him one of my old ones.

But if this guys been around, it would have been different. Maybe he needs a drug test or something. At least a few days to think it over.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

It's only 480v...


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

jza said:


> It's only 480v...


Its only possible death with a screw-up.:laughing:


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

lefleuron said:


> ...We all know meters can be pricey, and his knowledge may be short and the budget may be real tight...


 His knowledge definitely isn't short and he has a company issued tester and multimeter.

He knows he screwed up, that's what makes this tough, it wasn't just an honest mistake.

-John


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

TOOL_5150 said:


> Its only possible death with a screw-up.:laughing:


Real electricians don't make mistakes.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jza said:


> Real electricians don't make mistakes.


Thats right and don't you forget it...:thumbup::laughing:


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Big John said:


> His knowledge definitely isn't short and he has a company issued tester and multimeter.
> 
> He knows he screwed up, that's what makes this tough, it wasn't just an honest mistake.
> 
> -John


 Ouch,

So what going to go on here?


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

jza said:


> It's only 480v...


 I know you are joking-and it is funny.:laughing:



Just holding one of those, it even feels like a joke. Its like something you would expect to find in a childs "electronic learning lab" from Radio Shak.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

Big John said:


> Found one of the guys using this to test for voltage in a 480V disconnect:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did that come out of a box of cereal?


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

Here's an excellent Powerpoint presentation (done by Fluke several years ago) that does an excellent job of demonstrating why you would NOT want to use the meter pictured above:

www.lanl.gov/safety/electrical/docs/electrical_measurement.*ppt*

*(my apologies if you don't have powerpoint, maybe somebody has this in another format, or can post a couple of the meter pics from the presentation)*


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

sparky.jp said:


> Here's an excellent Powerpoint presentation....


 Thanks, I'm gonna use some of those photos in our safety talk. Especially the one where the guys fingerprints were melted into the test probe. Sends a message. 

-John


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## PsiMan84 (Oct 29, 2010)

notice the double caution triangles on bottom. meaning double whammy!!! my company doesn't pay for my Meter and i ended up buying it on my own because its my life and its worth every penny.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Just remember, wiggies that many of you like are not CAT III 1kV CAT IV 600v rated either. 
The meter like the one shown here usually have an input impedance of 1MOhm while most decent DMMs have 10MOhm, so in a way, it is less susceptible to "parasitic voltage" reading. 

I would say that most dangerous part about these meters is that some of them come with uninsulated banana jacks.

I have about six of these. They're useful when you need multiple channels.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

I love my meter. CAT III 1kv, CAT IV 600V, 10MOhm Impedance, 10A max, frequency up to 10MHz (I've measured accurately as low as 13.33Hz (verified by a scope and calculations)). I'd rather use my dad's 25+ year old Fluke 8060A than that piece of junk. Ugh. Some folks.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

those meter are everywhere in stores for about 10-20$. dont know why there are legal though!


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Electric_Light said:


> Just remember, wiggies that many of you like are not CAT III 1kV CAT IV 600v rated either.
> The meter like the one shown here usually have an input impedance of 1MOhm while most decent DMMs have 10MOhm, so in a way, it is less susceptible to "parasitic voltage" reading.
> 
> I would say that most dangerous part about these meters is that some of them come with uninsulated banana jacks.
> ...


Aren't wiggies non-contact though? I've only seen pictures of them and even then didn't pay too much attention to them. Does a non-contact detector have to even be CAT rated?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

janagyjr said:


> Aren't wiggies non-contact though?


No, a wiggy is another name for a solenoid tester that needs to be directly connected.


> ...Does a non-contact detector have to even be CAT rated?


Just guessing, but I think because of the possibility that they _could _come in contact, they have to be CAT rated to withstand the available power.

-John


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Big John said:


> No, a wiggy is another name for a solenoid tester that needs to be directly connected.Just guessing, but I think because of the possibility that they could come in contact, they have to be CAT rated to withstand the available power.
> 
> -John


Wiggy is the name of SquareD's solenoid tester. We just dragged the name to all of them. 
I never saw a Cat rating on a sniffer for LV.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Big John said:


> Found one of the guys using this to test for voltage in a 480V disconnect:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You have a company ruling on 600V CAT IV meters, what do you allow for test leads?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

76nemo said:


> You have a company ruling on 600V CAT IV meters, what do you allow for test leads?


I think the CAT IV rating automatically includes the leads for the device. I know I've spot checked a number of them, and they've been stamped with the CAT IV rating. When we buy separate leads they need to be rated the same.

No point having a good meter when the leads are the weak spot.

-John


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, CAT ratings have changed quite a bit for test leads. IEC has new regulations.

New legislation,(IEC61010-031) bans non-insulated testpins/tips longer than 4mm from CATIII and CATIV working environments. Probes having uninsulated tips longer than 4mm are still allowed in CATI and CATII applications.

If you've seen some of the advertisements for Fluke's new TL175 leads, IEC's new regulations are behind their design and release.

If you haven't seen any of the data about the TL175's, you can see some of it here.

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/3860288_0000_eng_b_w.pdf


There's alot more info on them out there, I'm just heading you in the direction of the conversation. 95% of people in the field are unaware of the new regulations. This is just the beginning. Scope leads will also have to follow suit as well as any lead with an exposed "tip".

Just giving ya' a heads up.........

Take it easy John.


~brad


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I appreciate the headsup, Brad.

I actually purchased a couple sets of the TL175s because they seemed like a useful replacement for a couple older sets of high-energy leads, but I didn't know they were gonna be a requirement.

Might be giving Fluke a lot of money here in very short order.... :whistling2:

-John


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Big John said:


> I appreciate the headsup, Brad.
> 
> I actually purchased a couple sets of the TL175s because they seemed like a useful replacement for a couple older sets of high-energy leads, but I didn't know they were gonna be a requirement.
> 
> ...


 
Did you happen to notice the CAT ratings change with the shroud extended compared to retracted?

I ordered the TL175E's. Question, on the lead itself, is the logo "FLUKE" just inlaid, or inlaid in black as shown in many pictures? I don't know if I got some of an initial batch or what, but mine are different than what's seen online for a majority......


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm gonna have a bunch of 175's on their way soon. I'm curious to see what I'll need to buy for the scopes.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

76nemo said:


> Did you happen to notice the CAT ratings change with the shroud extended compared to retracted?


 It rolls as you rotate the tip, you mean?

I saw that after I bought them. It bugs me. Why would they drop all the way to CAT II? With the tips shrouded, they're fine, but I'm not sure if we can even use them to test receptacles at CAT II... They're still useful for control circuits, but I can also see someone forgetting to adjust the tips while they're in a piece of gear. :thumbdown:

-John


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## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I thought that the CAT rating on a meter was for testing cat cabling somehow, and that I've never known how to do it.

Hahaha, dumb me!!!!!!


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

kaboler said:


> I thought that the CAT rating on a meter was for testing cat cabling somehow, and that I've never known how to do it.
> 
> Hahaha, dumb me!!!!!!


Yes, yes you are.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Big John said:


> It rolls as you rotate the tip, you mean?
> 
> I saw that after I bought them. It bugs me. Why would they drop all the way to CAT II? With the tips shrouded, they're fine, but I'm not sure if we can even use them to test receptacles at CAT II... They're still useful for control circuits, but I can also see someone forgetting to adjust the tips while they're in a piece of gear. :thumbdown:
> 
> -John


 
That's just it John, that's the change IEC made. Non-shrouded/insulated probes having an exposed "tip" of longer that 4mm are no longer allowed in CATIII and CATIV environments. You said you replaced some "high energy" leads, I take it you mean the TL238's? You'd have to arrange your safety policy accordingly for men working in gear. You have a point, it'd be very easy to forget with the TL175's that the shroud was retracted.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I'm gonna have a bunch of 175's on their way soon. I'm curious to see what I'll need to buy for the scopes.


 
Fluke's STL120's are being replaced. Their replacements won't be available for a couple of months. If you'd like a photo, I can PM you after work with the new part# as well.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

76nemo said:


> That's just it John, that's the change IEC made. Non-shrouded/insulated probes having an exposed "tip" of longer that 4mm are no longer allowed in CATIII and CATIV environments. You said you replaced some "high energy" leads, I take it you mean the TL238's? You'd have to arrange your safety policy accordingly for men working in gear. You have a point, it'd be very easy to forget with the TL175's that the shroud was retracted.


Should I contact my manufacturer about my leads? 4mm isn't very long. ):


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

janagyjr said:


> Should I contact my manufacturer about my leads? 4mm isn't very long. ):


The TL224 leads are fine. It's the probes I believe he's talking about. 
But if your leads aren't snapping back in place then yes, replace them. 
I have more $$ in leads then the cost of the meter.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

76nemo said:


> Fluke's STL120's are being replaced. Their replacements won't be available for a couple of months. If you'd like a photo, I can PM you after work with the new part# as well.


I knew they where getting replaced. I guess In the mean time I could use 175's or 238's with either a BNC to banana adapter or right into 120 series jacks but then I'd have to put up with some noise pick up :cursing:


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> The TL224 leads are fine. It's the probes I believe he's talking about.
> But if your leads aren't snapping back in place then yes, replace them.
> I have more $$ in leads then the cost of the meter.


I'm using the Amprobe 38XR-A and they use CATIV rated probes/leads (I use the term interchangeably, if that's incorrect, my apologies) and alligator clips. It seems to me you'd have to get awful close with the tips only being 4mm long.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

janagyjr said:


> I'm using the Amprobe 38XR-A and they use CATIV rated probes/leads (I use the term interchangeably, if that's incorrect, my apologies) and alligator clips. It seems to me you'd have to get awful close with the tips only being 4mm long.


Alligator clips?
Here are a few options, a mix of cat 3 & 4.
I just buy new leads every year or so. Then I make jumpers out of them. 
But the tips are nice and rugged and last forever. 
I had a kit stolen a few years ago. Man that mad me mad.


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## jza (Oct 31, 2009)

This just in. Fluke to release a new CatX tester. This will be known as the Kaboler tester and it will be the best tester in the entire world.


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## janagyjr (Feb 7, 2011)

Wirenuting said:


> Alligator clips?
> Here are a few options, a mix of cat 3 & 4.
> I just buy new leads every year or so. Then I make jumpers out of them.
> But the tips are nice and rugged and last forever.
> I had a kit stolen a few years ago. Man that mad me mad.


Alligator clips: bottom row on the left. 

None of my probes/leads look like what you posted. I'll take a picture of all that in a few. I just got in my second shipment of components for building my own bicycle turn signal.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Ya know fluke is gonna have to come up with something like the 175's in the suregrip package to fit on the T5's and T+'s.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> Ya know fluke is gonna have to come up with something like the 175's in the suregrip package to fit on the T5's and T+'s.


In the Suregrip package J? You can use your 238's.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

76nemo said:


> In the Suregrip package J? You can use your 238's.


I know, but then I have to switch back to the standard tips for other stuff.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

There's also the TP38's as well Larson:











http://www.tequipment.net/FlukeTP38.html?gclid=CLeApdbz36kCFVDCKgodmHbkYA


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I'd just take the finger guards off of a pair of 238's. I'm cheap. :laughing:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I know, but then I have to switch back to the standard tips for other stuff.


 
Okay, I gotcha...........good point:thumbsup:


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I'd just take the finger guards off of a pair of 238's. I'm cheap. :laughing:


 
:thumbsup:


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