# Where to install GEC on 3 panels service



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

I think you could get away with 250 aluminum as the riser. Maybe even 4/0 if you play with he calcs a little.

As far as the grounding goes, you run a GEC to each service disconnect. This could be one GEC with taps to each panel if you chose.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

CoolWill said:


> I think you could get away with 250 aluminum as the riser. Maybe even 4/0 if you play with he calcs a little.
> 
> As far as the grounding goes, you run a GEC to each service disconnect. This could be one GEC with taps to each panel if you chose.





CoolWill said:


> I think you could get away with 250 aluminum as the riser. Maybe even 4/0 if you play with he calcs a little.
> 
> As far as the grounding goes, you run a GEC to each service disconnect. This could be one GEC with taps to each panel if you chose.



I plan to run AL conductors and there is electric range, electric dyer and 2-3 window AC in each apartment in addition to kitchen appliances coffee maker, table microwave in both apartments and I think 200A would be not enough 

I attached sketch how to install GEC 
Or I should run that to meter








pan? I do not think utilities will allow that.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Malywr said:


> I plan to run AL conductors and there is electric range, electric dyer and 2-3 window AC in each apartment in addition to kitchen appliances coffee maker, table microwave in both apartments and I think 200A would be not enough
> 
> I attached sketch how to install GEC
> Or I should run that to meter
> ...













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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

The simplest is landing your GEC in the meterbase. Otherwise, it'll be taps to each service disconnect.

I definitely prefer the first option if I can get away with it.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Cow said:


> The simplest is landing your GEC in the meterbase. Otherwise, it'll be taps to each service disconnect.
> 
> I definitely prefer the first option if I can get away with it.



So I will need to run GEC to far disconnect and all closest just tap and crimp GEC ? 
Is there a way to splice without welding or crimped ? Because I don’t have any of that. 


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Malywr said:


> So I will need to run GEC to far disconnect and all closest just tap and crimp GEC ?
> Is there a way to splice without welding or crimped ? Because I don’t have any of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do believe a split bolt would be OK in this instance. Maybe.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Malywr said:


> So I will need to run GEC to far disconnect and all closest just tap and crimp GEC ?
> Is there a way to splice without welding or crimped ? Because I don’t have any of that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you're in this for the long haul, it may be worthwhile to own a crimper.

If you can't crimp and you don't have any other means to make an irreversible splice, then you may be running three seperate GEC's back to the rods. 



CoolWill said:


> I do believe a split bolt would be OK in this instance. Maybe.


Needs to be irreversible, a crimp is how we do it.


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## mofos be cray (Nov 14, 2016)

Up here the sh has a loaner crimper. Try asking at yours


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Cow said:


> If you're in this for the long haul, it may be worthwhile to own a crimper.
> 
> If you can't crimp and you don't have any other means to make an irreversible splice, then you may be running three seperate GEC's back to the rods.
> 
> ...


A splice needs to be irreversible, but does a tap?


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

How far apart are the panels? You can land the grounding electrode in one panel, and then run a jumper from one panel to the next, and then to the last. Land them all on the neutral bar, and install each main bonding jumper (screw) in each panel. 



The grounding electrode conductor has to be continuous, which it is. from electrode to first panel, then to next and then to last. don't use scrap wire that will not make it between all the terminations. So no wirenuts on two 6' pieces of wire if you need a 12' pieces of wire to the ground rod. Same thing going between panels. No wirenuts, just terminations on neutral bars and electrodes. It would be nice to use an "H" tap, and not have to go in and out of each panel. But at least it's only a #4 copper at the largest. 



I would imagine that each panel must be next to each other, otherwise a meter stack with main breakers would be used. Then the service would be at the meter stack and all the electrodes would go there.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

HertzHound said:


> How far apart are the panels? You can land the grounding electrode in one panel, and then run a jumper from one panel to the next, and then to the last. Land them all on the neutral bar, and install each main bonding jumper (screw) in each panel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In post 3 distance from meters to panels is Less than 4’. Panels are 4” a part


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

I would just put a bus bar in and land all the grounds there. 











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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think a copper collector bar is about 12" x 4" is about $100 or less.
It might be overkill.
For those that know about such things, would an intersystem ground bar be acceptable?


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> I think a copper collector bar is about 12" x 4" is about $100 or less.
> It might be overkill.
> For those that know about such things, would an intersystem ground bar be acceptable?



Code says min 2” wide and 1/4” thick. The length needs to accommodate all your connections. With 3 panels and a 200 amp service that’s 5 lugs. The bar could be 4” in length 


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

McMaster , copper bar, 1/4" x 2" x 6" only $17. Might even be able to find it cheaper at a local metal supply. But I order a ton through mcmaster.

https://www.mcmaster.com/8964K22-8964K224/

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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

Does a grounding bus like that need to be listed? Or is a piece of copper buss acceptable.

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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Forge Boyz said:


> Does a grounding bus like that need to be listed? Or is a piece of copper buss acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk



Copper bus plate 


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

This is all foolishness. 
1. Beat 2 ground rods in. #6 between them and to the meter pan. 
2. Run an appropriate sized grounding electrode conductor to the water pipe. Run that to the meter pan.
3. Profit


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

JoeSparky said:


> This is all foolishness.
> 1. Beat 2 ground rods in. #6 between them and to the meter pan.
> 2. Run an appropriate sized grounding electrode conductor to the water pipe. Run that to the meter pan.
> 3. Profit


Ive had an inspector make me move the it out of the meter and into the main disconnect.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> Ive had an inspector make me move the it out of the meter and into the main disconnect.



Correct. Bonding must occur in the 1st means of disconnect. You are allowed up to 6. A meter pan and meter is not considered a disconnect. 


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Forge Boyz said:


> Does a grounding bus like that need to be listed? Or is a piece of copper buss acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


No it does not need to be listed. In the NEC if an item needs to be listed they will say it needs to be listed. Under this code section they just put a description of Material and dimensions. The lug bolting to it must be listed

Edit:
250.30 A 6 c 3


> bus.
> 
> (c) Connections. All tap connections to the common
> 
> ...


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Southeast Power said:


> Ive had an inspector make me move the it out of the meter and into the main disconnect.


Unless your power company does not allow this installation, get a code reference from him. He won't find one. :no:
The grounding electrode conductor has to be tied to the service equipment. You can tie it in at any point from the weatherhead (for an overhead service) to the first disconnecting means.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

JoeSparky said:


> “power company does not allow this installation “
> 
> The grounding electrode conductor has to be tied to the service equipment. You can tie it in at any point from the weatherhead (for an overhead service) to the first disconnecting means.


Which panel would be first service disconnect. There is 3 and all have serviced disconnects. All 3 are fed from meter pan.


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

3 meters, 3 disconnects=3 bonded panels


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Malywr said:


> Which panel would be first service disconnect. There is 3 and all have serviced disconnects. All 3 are fed from meter pan.


All three, unless you have a main ahead of them. If you insist on grounding the panels and not the meter, then you have to jump all three of them together what the largest size grounding electrode conductor required for that service .

So if you have a 300 amp riser, and you choose to tie your water ground in at the panels and not at the meters, then you have to loop 1/0 cu between the three panels


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

300 amp service @83%
4/0 CU THHN service drop
#2 CU THHN water ground
#6 CU THHN supplemental ground rod

100 amp panel
#4 CU THHN phase and neutral
#8 CU THHN ground











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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

VELOCI3 said:


> 300 amp service @83%
> 4/0 CU THHN service drop
> #2 CU THHN water ground
> #6 CU THHN supplemental ground rod
> ...


I typed 300, I meant 400. I was sizing the gec based on 500 copper


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## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

VELOCI3 said:


> Correct. Bonding must occur in the 1st means of disconnect. You are allowed up to 6. A meter pan and meter is not considered a disconnect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Code reference? :vs_worry::vs_worry:

I don't have a book in front of me currently. I'm pretty damn sure it says the grounding electrode conductor has to be tied to the service equipment. Service equipment starts where your service conductors are connected to the power company's incoming feed and ends at the first disconnecting means. The meter socket is part of the service equipment. If you have a multi disconnect service, then it can be any or all of them , but then you have to jump them all together. 
Some power companies do not allow grounding electrodes in the meter socket. That would be their rule, not the NEC.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I thought he said the riser was 250 aluminum. That’s why I said #4 from water pipe in and out of each panel. #2 make that a bit more of a pain in the ass since he said the riser was 350 aluminum. 

The two different power companies I have dealt with do not allow the grounding electrodes in their meter pans. They don’t want you to have an extra reason to go into their equipment was what I was told. I’ve only seen it once or twice where the ground rod came out of the meter. Since we live in the same state, I’m guessing he’s not running it to the meter pan.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

VELOCI3 said:


> Correct. Bonding must occur in the 1st means of disconnect. You are allowed up to 6. A meter pan and meter is not considered a disconnect.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The GEC can be connected to the meter, the overhead neutral, or the disconnect. But the bond that creates the EGC occurs in the first disconnect.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

RSoloman said:


> some meter boxes come with a lug for a gec but many places dont allow it..


Yes. It's very utility specific.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

VELOCI3 said:


> 300 amp service @83%
> 4/0 CU THHN service drop
> #2 CU THHN water ground
> #6 CU THHN supplemental ground rod
> ...



Thank you all that is great help


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

VELOCI3 said:


> 300 amp service @83%
> 4/0 CU THHN service drop
> #2 CU THHN water ground
> #6 CU THHN supplemental ground rod
> ...



I am just checking this calc. and I am a little confused everything seems to be clear but 300A at 83% is 249A and conductor for 249A is 250Kcmil do one size smaller is acceptable on services even we reduce that to 83% ( 4/0 at 75*F brings that to 230A which makes it 77%) 
All the other conductors I understand but 4/0 throws me off 
Please help me understand


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## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Malywr said:


> I am just checking this calc. and I am a little confused everything seems to be clear but 300A at 83% is 249A and conductor for 249A is 250Kcmil do one size smaller is acceptable on services even we reduce that to 83% ( 4/0 at 75*F brings that to 230A which makes it 77%)
> All the other conductors I understand but 4/0 throws me off
> Please help me understand



4/0 THHN rated for 260amps. 


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Maylwyr, you mentioned in your first post that you were using aluminum to each apartments. Are you also using aluminum for the riser? If so you should mention that. I keep seeing wire sizes, but no mention of copper or aluminum. 

As far as the 83% goes, you can’t use that for the riser. You can use it for the individual panels, or the riser for a single family home. You could use it if you wanted to run three risers up from three individual meter pans. I’m not sure you could use it for the house panel, because it doesn’t feed all the circuits in a single family home. 




> 310.15 (b)
> (7)Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders.
> For one-family dwellings and the individual dwelling units of two-family and multifamily dwellings, service and feeder conductors supplied by a single-phase, 120/240-volt system shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 310.15(B)(7)(1) through (4).
> For one-family dwellings and the individual dwelling units of two-family and multifamily dwellings, single-phase feeder conductors consisting of 2 ungrounded conductors and the neutral conductor from a 208Y/120 volt system shall be permitted to be sized in accordance with 310.15(B)(7)(1) through (3).
> ...


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

HertzHound said:


> Maylwyr, you mentioned in your first post that you were using aluminum to each apartments. Are you also using aluminum for the riser? If so you should mention that. I keep seeing wire sizes, but no mention of copper or aluminum.
> 
> As far as the 83% goes, you can’t use that for the riser. You can use it for the individual panels, or the riser for a single family home. You could use it if you wanted to run three risers up from three individual meter pans. I’m not sure you could use it for the house panel, because it doesn’t feed all the circuits in a single family home.





HertzHound said:


> Maylwyr, you mentioned in your first post that you were using aluminum to each apartments. Are you also using aluminum for the riser? If so you should mention that. I keep seeing wire sizes, but no mention of copper or aluminum.
> 
> As far as the 83% goes, you can’t use that for the riser. You can use it for the individual panels, or the riser for a single family home. You could use it if you wanted to run three risers up from three individual meter pans. I’m not sure you could use it for the house panel, because it doesn’t feed all the circuits in a single family home.



I am sorry about that... yes I plan to use all AL 350Kcmil for riser and from meter to panels AL #1/0 now I am considering AL #1 and for GEC #2 Cu and ground rod #6 Cu. 

Meter box can accept up to 350 Kcmil on line side


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## mikewillnot (Apr 2, 2013)

JoeSparky said:


> This is all foolishness.
> 1. Beat 2 ground rods in. #6 between them and to the meter pan.



Around here these days, the utility company PROHIBITS GEC terminations in the meter enclosure. Capital PROHIB.
The inspectors, however, allow split bolts for the taps at the panels. 
Daisy chaining is not allowed. 

Back when I was a relatively untrained youngster, and the meter can was an approved termination, I installed a service on a friend's barn, and ran the bare copper into the meter from the bottom, and then up and around, pretzel-like, and down to the termination.

30 years later I ran into him at a 4th of July thing, and he told me about how he was clearing weeds and latched onto the ground wire with a bush hog, which pulled the ground wire down, and the meter can exploded, with fireworks welding arcs and all, until the utility company came and pulled the disconnect at a transformer.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

Malywr said:


> Customer asks me upgrade his service on 2 family house and 3rd meter is for owner.
> Currently there is single PH, 60A to each apartment and owner has 100A.
> I calculated each apt load is 86A and owner basement staircase and outside 30A. I plan to install Supply from top of the roof to 3 gang meter pan 100A. 350kcmil then from each meter run 2 apartments 100A- #1/0 AL and owner also update to new 100A -#1/0AL.
> Can someone help me if those conductors are not to big ?
> ...


If this is an upgrade why don't you just go with a meter pack?


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Quickservice said:


> If this is an upgrade why don't you just go with a meter pack?



What is meter pack 
I am using 3 meter pan


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

don't run the ground to the meter pan like some posters suggest....grounding starts at service disconnect, in your case in the panel.

You gonna have to run individual grounds to the ground rods from each panel.. try to make them continuous from panel, to rod, to rod and don't put more that 1 wire in a acron clamp...you either need individual clamps or get a connector that is listed for multiple wires


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Tonedeaf said:


> *don't run the ground to the meter pan like some posters suggest*....grounding starts at service disconnect, in your case in the panel.


Is that because the codes in NJ don't allow it?


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Cow said:


> Is that because the codes in NJ don't allow it?


when you tighten the green screw on the you service disconnect or panel neutral bar...the meter pan is bonded through the grounded conductor (neutral). All residential meter pans, the Neutral lugs are bonded to the metal meter enclosure. That is all that is required by code.

I know for a FACT that PSE&G does not allow it...and most inspector in NJ know it. 

Grounding starts at service disconnect.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Tonedeaf said:


> when you tighten the green screw on the you service disconnect or panel neutral bar...the meter pan is bonded through the grounded conductor (neutral). All residential meter pans, the Neutral lugs are bonded to the metal meter enclosure. That is all that is required by code.
> 
> I know for a FACT that PSE&G does not allow it...and most inspector in NJ know it.
> 
> Grounding starts at service disconnect.


The problem here is that people from all over the country comment. I learned to reference the location and what code cycle we are on before I ask a question. I believe the NEC says anywhere between the service head to the first OPD which could be the service disconnect. For PSE&G it is the service disconnect. Now the question is, if I use a NON fused disconnect for the " emergency disconnect" on the outside and then run to a MCB panel inside, where is the grounding done? We are on the 2017 code so I am not familiar with the emergency disconnect. Some commented that you cannot use a NON fused disconnect.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Tonedeaf said:


> when you tighten the green screw on the you service disconnect or panel neutral bar...the meter pan is bonded through the grounded conductor (neutral). All residential meter pans, the Neutral lugs are bonded to the metal meter enclosure. That is all that is required by code.
> 
> I know for a FACT that PSE&G does not allow it...and most inspector in NJ know it.
> 
> Grounding starts at service disconnect.





kb1jb1 said:


> The problem here is that people from all over the country comment. I learned to reference the location and what code cycle we are on before I ask a question. I believe the NEC says anywhere between the service head to the first OPD which could be the service disconnect. For PSE&G it is the service disconnect. Now the question is, if I use a NON fused disconnect for the " emergency disconnect" on the outside and then run to a MCB panel inside, where is the grounding done? We are on the 2017 code so I am not familiar with the emergency disconnect. Some commented that you cannot use a NON fused disconnect.


I bring my grounding electrode conductors to CT cabinets all the time, allowable per the NEC, which is why I asked the question if this was a NJ rule.

The power co's over here could care less as long as I keep the GEC's out of their way in the metering equipment.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Cow said:


> I bring my grounding electrode conductors to CT cabinets all the time, allowable per the NEC, which is why I asked the question if this was a NJ rule.
> 
> The power co's over here could care less as long as I keep the GEC's out of their way in the metering equipment.


no CT Cabinet we are talking about a residential service....PSEG will not allow you to put BOND/ground WIRE INSIDE A RESIDENTIAL METER PAN. you can bond a metal nipple if you use one in the panel with a bond bushing(on panel side). Think about if you bond the neutral in the panel 
to the GEC and then run a GEC to the meter panel........its a parallel path....not really ideal.

CT cabinet or a Meter Grouping setup are DIFFERENT animals.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

I was told it was because they didn’t want a reason for anybody to go into their meter pans. So keep the customer side grounding in the panel, not the meter. You just don’t see it done around here. It always goes out through the same hole in the wall as the SEU. Some guys drill a hole in the bottom of the LB if it’s PVC. But you never see it stoped down out of the meter. 

I never do it in a CT cabinet either. I’m not sure of the rules, but I never seen it done.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Tonedeaf said:


> no CT Cabinet we are talking about a residential service....PSEG will not allow you to put BOND/ground WIRE INSIDE A RESIDENTIAL METER PAN. you can bond a metal nipple if you use one in the panel with a bond bushing(on panel side). Think about if you bond the neutral in the panel
> to the GEC and then run a GEC to the meter panel........its a parallel path....not really ideal.
> 
> CT cabinet or a Meter Grouping setup are DIFFERENT animals.


I understand they are different, I'm not disputing that. 

The fundamentals of landing a GEC('s) at the service disconnect(s) or anywhere upstream whether it be a wireway/gutter, CT cabinet, meterbase or "meter grouping" doesn't change anything, and is allowed by the NEC. The fact you have a restrictive power co. that doesn't allow it has no bearing on the rest of us.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Yup, just stupid POCO rules with no basis for the restriction.


GEC conenection in here?











No way.





GEC connection in here?









Sure.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

Cow said:


> I understand they are different, I'm not disputing that.
> 
> The fundamentals of landing a GEC('s) at the service disconnect(s) or anywhere upstream whether it be a wireway/gutter, CT cabinet, meterbase or "meter grouping" doesn't change anything, and is allowed by the NEC. The fact you have a restrictive power co. that doesn't allow it has no bearing on the rest of us.


you above comment make no sense...all utilities have service specifications that cover all their requirements for all types of services......

Besides.......*he's from NJ*...and he is asking a specific questions...*I have been working in NJ for +30 years* and have installed 500+ residential services in NJ and I* don't mind giving him some information from my experiences. 
*

Your post has no bearing on his situation.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Fair enough, in the future I'll try to remember to let you handle the NJ specific questions.


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

Tonedeaf said:


> you above comment make no sense...all utilities have service specifications that cover all their requirements for all types of services......
> 
> Besides.......*he's from NJ*...and he is asking a specific questions...*I have been working in NJ for +30 years* and have installed 500+ residential services in NJ and I* don't mind giving him some information from my experiences.
> *
> ...



Do enyone knows how to cheep splice nonreversible GEC without buying expensive tools
I run unbroken conductor from water pipe to panel C. Above panel B I removed insulation and use split bolt (bug) to connect 3’ conductor one end go to panel B and the other end go to panel A. All 3 panels are next to each other. 
Inspector fail me because I use bug connector instead of nonreversable connector 
Please help me other wise I will need to run 2 more unbroken conductors to panel A and B


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Look at post 11. That’s where I said to go in and out of each panel landing on the neutral bar. No fancy tools needed. Or if it’s not that far, just run back to the water main.


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## CTshockhazard (Aug 28, 2009)

Malywr said:


> Do enyone knows how to cheep splice nonreversible GEC without buying expensive tools
> I run unbroken conductor from water pipe to panel C. Above panel B I removed insulation and use split bolt (bug) to connect 3’ conductor one end go to panel B and the other end go to panel A. All 3 panels are next to each other.
> Inspector fail me because I use bug connector instead of nonreversable connector
> Please help me other wise I will need to run 2 more unbroken conductors to panel A and B
> ...



Inspector is wrong, those are "taps" and don't require the irreversible compression-type connector.


250.64 (D)


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## Malywr (Jan 23, 2018)

CTshockhazard said:


> Inspector is wrong, those are "taps" and don't require the irreversible compression-type connector.
> 
> 
> 250.64 (D)





HertzHound said:


> Look at post 11. That’s where I said to go in and out of each panel landing on the neutral bar. No fancy tools needed. Or if it’s not that far, just run back to the water main.



Thank you both hertzhound and CTshockhazard for great input I will talk to inspector on Monday and see what he agree on I will not but $2,000 tool I to not do that many services so tool will not pay for itself I will try to jump from panel to panel if inspector doesn’t approve I will run 2x #6 to water pipe that would be less expensive 


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