# HI's BS opinion



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Even without the partition, there's no code stating what he's claiming


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Not sure how the NEC reads but in the CEC it's only if the receptacle is within 1.5 m ( 5' feet in yankee terminology) of a sink. No wording about an ice maker in a fridge.

I think the HI is, as usual, a moron who is just making sh!t up so he can justify his fee.


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

$150.00 in your pocket.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

No


Rollie73 said:


> Not sure how the NEC reads but in the CEC it's only if the receptacle is within 1.5 m ( 5' feet in yankee terminology) of a sink. No wording about an ice maker in a fridge.
> 
> I think the HI is, as usual, a moron who is just making sh!t up so he can justify his fee.



210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations speciﬁed in
(1) through 8 shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a ﬂoor located at or below grade level not intended as habit- able rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
• (3) Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily acces- sible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permit- ted to be installed in accordance with 426.28.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unﬁnished basements — for purposes of this section, unﬁnished basements are deﬁned as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and lim- ited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
• Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a perma- nently installed ﬁre alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
FPN: See 760.41 B and 760.121 b for power supply requirements for ﬁre alarm systems.
Receptacles installed under the exception to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks — where the recep- tacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
8 >Boathouses


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

daveEM said:


> $150.00 in your pocket.


True...but I personally hate the thoughts of charging for un-necessary work. I would prefer to explain the code to the customer and why the HI is wrong, explain why I refuse to charge them for un-necessary work and then flip them a business card and let them know that I will be available for any _necessary _electrical work that they may need done.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

BuzzKill said:


> So I'm doing some work for a RE guy and the HI says the recep's next to this fridge need to be GFI protected because the fridge has an ice-maker; I say it's questionable because of the solid partition between the recep's and the fridge...would like my peer's opinions.


I take it that's not in a kitchen?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Barjack said:


> I take it that's not in a kitchen?


yeah in a kitchen but no sink in the area


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I got into it before with a home inspector who tried to flag my scotch 33 taped ends of unused spare future use romex cables inside an electrical panel. He was so sure of himself that ''tape is not a good way to terminate a cable'', I almost had to go to court , thanks to his whipping up a frenzy with the new purchaser of the house. The chief inspector for the county pretty much solved the issue by writing him a citation for unlicensed electrical work for lifting the panel cover in the first place, something that only licensed electricians in my state are supposed to do.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

210.8(a)(6)
"Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces." -this apparently could be used as justification for requiring GFI protection there.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

BuzzKill said:


> 210.8(a)(6)
> "Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces." -this apparently could be used as justification for requiring GFI protection there.


no it can't.....


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> no it can't.....


explain


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

Sink location doesn't matter in a dwelling kitchen. If it is a countertop receptacle, it must be GFCI protected. 210.8(A)(6)



> (6)
> Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces



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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> 210.8(a)(6)
> "Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces." -this apparently could be used as justification for requiring GFI protection there.


Buzz, this receptacle clearly does not meet the requirement of serving the countertop.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

why not? it's a countertop corner, about about a 2x2 90.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Buzz, this receptacle clearly does not meet the requirement of serving the countertop.


It is installed above the counter top next to the fridge. What else could it be serving?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> explain


(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily ac- cessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be con- sidered as these required outlets.
Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
(1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accor- dance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.







This outlet clearly cannot serve the countertop.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily ac- cessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be con- sidered as these required outlets.
> Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
> (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accor- dance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to the receptacle for the fridge?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Are you referring to the receptacle for the fridge?



I'm referring to the receptacles pictured, not the one that may or may not be behind the fridge. 


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

Barjack said:


> I'm referring to the receptacles pictured, not the one that may or may not be behind the fridge.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


Not you, mcclary's electrical.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> This outlet clearly cannot serve the countertop.



Really awesome!


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily ac- cessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be con- sidered as these required outlets.
> Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
> (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accor- dance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.
> 
> This outlet clearly cannot serve the countertop.


nothing here about the (3) recep's I am talking about.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Are you referring to the receptacle for the fridge?


Try to Keep up here, those are the requirements to serve the countertop, serving the countertop is the only thing that would demand gfi protection


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Try to Keep up here, those are the requirements to serve the countertop, serving the countertop is the only thing that would demand gfi protection


Whatever.
So GFCI protection it is.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> This outlet clearly cannot serve the countertop.


Have you shown why the (3) recep's involved cannot serve as countertop recep's?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Have you shown why the (3) recep's involved cannot serve as countertop recep's?


Yes, I showed you the EXACT requirements that would NOT ALLOW these receptacles to serve the countertop.


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Yes, I showed you the EXACT requirements that would NOT ALLOW these receptacles to serve the countertop.


No where in the below disqualifies those receptacles from not serving the counter top



> (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily ac- cessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be con- sidered as these required outlets.
> Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
> (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accor- dance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> No where in the below disqualifies those receptacles from not serving the counter top


Maybe you should read the part about 12" below the countertop before you make yourself look silly?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Maybe you should read the part about 12" below the countertop before you make yourself look silly?


Are you looking at that picture upside down? Hell, are you even looking at the correct picture?


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

aftershockews said:


> Are you looking at that picture upside down? Hell, are you even looking at the correct picture?



Your sig says it all. 

Just saying. 


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

aftershockews said:


> Are you looking at that picture upside down? Hell, are you even looking at the correct picture?


Damn dude, are you in 1st grade? My code book does not have the first picture. . Maybe that's your reading comprehension problem?


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## aftershockews (Dec 22, 2012)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Damn dude, are you in 1st grade? My code book does not have the first picture. . Maybe that's your reading comprehension problem?


Are you missing 480 today?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Maybe you should read the part about 12" below the countertop before you make yourself look silly?


okay maybe you better ID the part we are missing in big bright bold red letters.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> okay maybe you better ID the part we are missing in big bright bold red letters.


No red letters but maybe you can still read it? 

(5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
(1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

"(5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
(1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top."

Problem here is it says "below the counter-top"...the 3 recep's in question are 'above' the counter-top.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> "(5): To comply with the conditions speciﬁed in
> (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the counter- top."
> 
> Problem here is it says "below the counter-top"...the 3 recep's in question are 'above' the counter-top.


... buzz. Im looking from my phone, I thought we were looking at a floor. You know .... damn well a countertop receptacle should be gfi'd. Had nothing to do with an ice maker


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

mcclary's electrical said:


> ... buzz. Im looking from my phone, I thought we were looking at a floor. You know .... damn well a countertop receptacle should be gfi'd. Had nothing to do with an ice maker


:laughing: sure.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Watch the name calling and language or this thread will end up in the trash bin and vacations issued.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I thought it was the floor too, now I see it's a countertop


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

Counter top 











counter top......hmmmm:blink:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Beam me up......








~CS~


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

To the OP:

Yes, if the 3 receptacles in the picture are in a kitchen, in the USA and are above a countertop, they are required to be GFCI protected.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Counter top
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From my phone it really looked like a receptacle down by the floor.


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## Roger (Jul 7, 2007)

I think if post #15 had not been invisible a lot of the bickering might have been avoided. :whistling2:


Roger


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

aftershockews said:


> Are you looking at that picture upside down? Hell, are you even looking at the correct picture?




Hell , when I first looked I thought the counter top was the floor !

Now , i see a third recpt. that serves the fridge , mounted on the counter top .
That makes me think like garages with a Duplex recpt serving a fridge and the GFCI requirements . It is not a single recpt.



Pete


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## ceb58 (Feb 14, 2009)

Now that we see it is countertop receptacles who's to say they are not fed from a GFCI not shown. We are talking about a HI. Just because its not a GFCI receptacle doesn't mean its not GFCI protected.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Prior to 96' only receptacles within 6' of the sink need gfci protection. How old is the kitchen? Depending on the age all others might not need protection.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> I thought it was the floor too, now I see it's a countertop


So did I. My bad........... Oh wait, Buzz'z bad, - shoddy picture.....:laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

And this thread is already starting to look like an HI forum with the name calling. Add a few guys spewing none applicable code sections such as power limited alarm circuits in regards to kitchen counters and we've stooped to that level.

Toss in mods who delete what makes the electricians looks smart and the HIs dumb and we have that other forum I wont mention... :laughing::laughing:


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## knomore (Mar 21, 2010)

Yup, need a GFI there.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

meadow said:


> And this thread is already starting to look like an HI forum with the name calling. Add a few guys spewing none applicable code sections such as power limited alarm circuits in regards to kitchen counters and we've stooped to that level.
> 
> Toss in mods_* who delete what makes the electricians looks smart*_ and the HIs dumb and we have that other forum I wont mention... :laughing::laughing:


Um, the name calling and saying someone is blind is what you consider making the electricians look smart? 

This has already run its course. 

Thread closed.

*Edited to add the following:*

Meadow sent me a PM to clarify what his post was intended to mean, which was


> *I was referring to a home inspection forum.* If you posted something that made an electrician look smart or the HIs dumb *the HI mods* would go in and delete the comments.


My response was made in misunderstanding of what was meant by his post, and for that I stand corrected. 

That said, the thread is still played out and will remain closed.


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