# Romex jobs



## hawk369 (May 7, 2010)

Can neutral and ground wires be tried under one lug for each circuit in Main Panel box ,another words two wires together on the neutral bar for a Romex wiring job .... this way you can identify the ground with the neutral for a circuit ......this was a home done in a large project so all the homes are done like that ....the electrical inspector Ok'd it ...


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Welcome to the forum!No. The code requires each grounded conductor to be under its own screw.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Make sure the power is off to the circuits if you have multiwire circuits and you correct this mistake. I wasn't paying attention the other day and was doing just that. When the neutral sparked I woke up. No damage that I know of yet...


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I disagree, it depends on the listing of the lug or ground/neutral bar.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

drsparky said:


> I disagree, it depends on the listing of the lug or ground/neutral bar.


 Neutrals/grounded conductors=seperate lugs
grounding conductors can usually be doubled up if they're the same awg, maybe even tripled up.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

drsparky said:


> I disagree, it depends on the listing of the lug or ground/neutral bar.


 

See 408.41 in 2008:whistling2: Unless you are talking about parallel grounded conductors.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I think there are a few load centers out there that are listed so that grounds can go under the same lug. I don't remember which one's though.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> See 408.41 in 2008:whistling2: Unless you are talkinh about parallel grounded conductors.


Touche, you have me at the point of the foil. :icon_redface:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Touche, you have me at the point of the foil. :icon_redface:


 Do what????:laughing::laughing:


----------



## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Touche, you have me at the point of the foil. :icon_redface:


A real dr. sparky would have known this:jester:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Do what????:laughing::laughing:


 
Fencing I believe!:laughing:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Fencing I believe!:laughing:


 Ok.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> I think there are a few load centers out there that are listed so that grounds can go under the same lug. I don't remember which one's though.


 

Most allow 2 or 3 grounds. I usally use cutler hammer and they allow three I believe.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Welcome to the forum hawk369.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Most allow 2 or 3 grounds. I usally use cutler hammer and they allow three I believe.


 Yea, that chart is some times is kinda hard to read.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

william1978 said:


> Do what????:laughing::laughing:



"Touche" should be "Touché".

And this is a foil:


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

480sparky said:


> "Touche" should be "Touché".
> 
> And this is a foil:


 Thank you tool.:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Touche, you have me at the point of the foil. :icon_redface:



Thats some pretty fancy pants talken' from the back wood's O Maine. 

:jester:


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> "Touche" should be "Touché".
> 
> And this is a foil:


 
Peter D is back 480 you dont have to play spelling nazi anymore:laughing:


----------



## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

if cuttin ina new panel.. i usually twist two or three grounds together and put under one terminal.. obviously neutral always on its own..and try to keep the two grounded conductors serperated so that it looks neater


----------



## hawk369 (May 7, 2010)

hawk369 said:


> Can neutral and ground wires be tried under one lug for each circuit in Main Panel box ,another words two wires together on the neutral bar for a Romex wiring job .... this way you can identify the ground with the neutral for a circuit ......this was a home done in a large project so all the homes are done like that ....the electrical inspector Ok'd it ...


Originally Posted by *jwjrw*  
_Most allow 2 or 3 grounds. I usally use cutler hammer and they allow three I believe_
_ I see....but can one neutral and one ground wire same AWG for a single circuit be installed under a single lug on a neutral bar ........_


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> Peter D is back 480 you dont have to play spelling nazi anymore:laughing:


Seems he's asleep at the switch about it, though.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

william1978 said:


> Yea, that chart is some times is kinda hard to read.


Yep it is! That is if it is even there anymore. Seen em faded, wet, marked out torn etc.


----------



## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> Yep it is! That is if it is even there anymore. Seen em faded, wet, marked out torn etc.


 Yea, most are that way. Even the brand new ones are hard to read.:laughing:


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Murphy said:


> if cuttin ina new panel.. i usually twist two or three grounds together and put under one terminal.. obviously neutral always on its own..and try to keep the two grounded conductors serperated so that it looks neater


 To each their own, but I hate twisted ground wires in a panel. What do you mean about separating the two grounded conductors?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

hawk369 said:


> Originally Posted by *jwjrw*
> _Most allow 2 or 3 grounds. I usally use cutler hammer and they allow three I believe_
> _I see....but can one neutral and one ground wire same AWG for a single circuit be installed under a single lug on a neutral bar ........_


 

No 408.41 says each grounded conductor shall terminate in an individual terminal that is not used for another conductor. Grounds are ok , grounded a no no.


----------



## Murphy (Dec 10, 2009)

jwjrw said:


> No 408.41 says each grounded conductor shall terminate in an individual terminal that is not used for another conductor. Grounds are ok , grounded a no no.


 
sorry i mean grounds and neutrals seperated.(a ground wire isnt allowed to be used as a conductor? .darn.. and yea.. it does kinda suck ripping apart an old panel with the grounds twisted.. but it looks neater cause there is less clutter.


----------



## CFL (Jan 28, 2009)

Murphy said:


> sorry i mean grounds and neutrals seperated.(a ground wire isnt allowed to be used as a conductor? .darn.. and yea.. it does kinda suck ripping apart an old panel with the grounds twisted.. but it looks neater cause there is less clutter.


 OK, I guess I can agree with that. It does look kinda cool.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

CFL said:


> OK, I guess I can agree with that. It does look kinda cool.


 
Give me the clutter anyday! I hate untwisting all them grounds.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't know about you, but I put covers on my panels.


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> "Touche" should be "Touché".
> 
> And this is a foil:


I have a US keyboard, and "touche" is acceptable.
Touche away!


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> Thats some pretty fancy pants talken' from the back wood's O Maine.
> 
> :jester:


Yep, we just say "poke u with a sharp stick".


----------



## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

I would rather see 2 under a screw than a wire nut...

Its ok to put one conductor under 2 screws..ha


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I have a US keyboard, and "touche" is acceptable.
> Touche away!


Sõ dö I. Bût thåt dòësñ't stõp mê.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Murphy said:


> sorry i mean grounds and neutrals seperated.(a ground wire isnt allowed to be used as a conductor? .darn.. and yea.. it does kinda suck ripping apart an old panel with the grounds twisted.. but it looks neater cause there is less clutter.


 

Ground wire not to be used as conductor???


I guess we need to submit a proposal to rename a Equipment grounding conductor


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Slam all your neutrals on individually and then do the grounds. If I have room I put those on all individually as well. Sometimes you need to put a couple together, big deal.


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Murphy said:


> if cuttin ina new panel.. i usually twist two or three grounds together and put under one terminal.. obviously neutral always on its own..and try to keep the two grounded conductors serperated so that it looks neater


Twisting the EGC's together is pointless.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Magnettica said:


> Twisting the EGC's together is pointless.


If your landing them on the same terminal it _may_ make it a little easier. Nothing to right home about though.


----------



## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Seems he's asleep at the switch about it, though.


:sleep1:



Magnettica said:


> Twisting the EGC's together is pointless.


I agree. I can't understand why anyone would do that, other than to prove they can do worthless things that only make someone else's job more difficult down the road.


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Peter D said:


> :sleep1:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I can't understand why anyone would do that, other than to prove they can do worthless things that only make someone else's job more difficult down the road.


 


And any extra time you spend doing something unnecessary is costing you or the company you work for money.:thumbsup:


----------



## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

I've heard tell that those green wires are cheaper at the supply house, because the they hardly ever get used.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

JohnR said:


> I've heard tell that those green wires are cheaper at the supply house, because the they hardly ever get used.


What green wires?


----------



## swright (May 13, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Ground wire not to be used as conductor???
> 
> 
> I guess we need to submit a proposal to rename a Equipment grounding conductor


While I'm certain this was a 'tongue-in-cheek' jest, I must admit I've always disliked the nomenclature a bit. Though the Equipment Grounding Conductor is in fact a conductor, its purpose is, of course, to conduct hazardous voltages which may be introduced by insulation failure, static build-up, etc, for the express purpose of safeguarding personel or equipment which may become injured or damaged by contact with exposed metallic machine parts. Naturally under normal operating circumstances, the EGC shouldn't carry any current at all. (Hopefully, if it ever does carry current, your circuit protection device will be tripped/blown directly.) 

While the grounded conductor, or neutral, is intended to carry the unbalanced load current of the service, feeder, or branch circuit associated with it.

The similarity in the naming convention can be a bit confusing for those less experienced with the code. :blink:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

hawk369 said:


> Can neutral and ground wires be tried under one lug for each circuit in Main Panel box ,another words two wires together on the neutral bar for a Romex wiring job .... this way you can identify the ground with the neutral for a circuit ......this was a home done in a large project so all the homes are done like that ....the electrical inspector Ok'd it ...


I may be missing something but are you not required to keep the EGC separate from the neutral. By not doing so you are creating a parallel path for circuit current back to the source. The GROUND and NEUTRAL should only be connected at the service disconnect. What did I miss?


----------



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

I think this is what the OP is talking about... This is a main disco, now look how the nuetrals and the bare grounding wire get terminated on one lug. This is a romex job that I snapped a picture of, this is not my work.

Is this ok???


----------



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

I got pictures....:thumbup:


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> I got pictures....:thumbup:


Is this method legal?


----------



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

RIVETER said:


> Is this method legal?


 I dont know...I was wondering myself. Thats why I took the picture!


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> I dont know...I was wondering myself. Thats why I took the picture!


Nope, 408.41 requires that each grounded conductor terminate within the panelboard in an individual termianl that is not also used for another conductor.

Chris


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Nope, 408.41 requires that each grounded conductor terminate within the panelboard in an individual termianl that is not also used for another conductor.
> 
> Chris



The language of 408.41 was introduced into the NEC in 2002.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> I dont know...I was wondering myself. Thats why I took the picture!


It looks like a new panel and I thought that the neutral had to be separated from the ground,(EGC).


----------



## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> It looks like a new panel and I thought that the neutral had to be separated from the ground,(EGC).


Not if it is the main panel. If it is a sub panel or has another means of OCP ahead of it then it should be fed by a 4 wire feeder and the grounded/grounding conductors should be isolated from each other with the grounding conductor bonded to the enclosure.


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> The language of 408.41 was introduced into the NEC in 2002.


Yes, but it was part of the UL standard and in the UL white book for quite a long time before it made it into the NEC.

Chris


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Yes, but it was part of the UL standard and in the UL white book for quite a long time before it made it into the NEC.
> 
> Chris



A mere technicality. How many electricians out there have even _heard_ of the White Book?


----------



## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> I may be missing something but are you not required to keep the EGC separate from the neutral. By not doing so you are creating a parallel path for circuit current back to the source. The GROUND and NEUTRAL should only be connected at the service disconnect. What did I miss?


 

See my post on page 2:whistling2:and Radar's after mine on this page
I don't always read the previous pages either.:laughing:


----------



## Toronto Sparky (Apr 12, 2009)

That does not look like a neutral Bus to me?
Where are the insulated stand offs?
Looks more like a ground bus.


----------



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Toronto Sparky said:


> That does not look like a neutral Bus to me?
> Where are the insulated stand offs?
> Looks more like a ground bus.


 It's a main disco, nuetrals and grounds are all tied together... My concern was can we put two wires under one ternimal??? Answer: NO! 

Thank you everyone!


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> It's a main disco, nuetrals and grounds are all tied together... My concern was can we put two wires under one ternimal??? Answer: NO!
> 
> Thank you everyone!


I think I'm with Toronto Sparky. I thought that the neutrals had to be insulated from the grounds, even at the main disconnect. The Neutral and the GEC would be bonded at the first disconnect; The individual egcs would be bonded to the panel, not physically touching the neutral there.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> ..........My concern was can we put two wires under one ternimal??? Answer: NO! ............!


Have you even read 408.41?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

drsparky said:


> I have a US keyboard, and "touche" is acceptable.
> Touche away!


 To order get the " é " show up just hit alt first then type 233 { that for North Americiané keyboard } My French keyboard is allready have it on automatically so I don't have to hit it.

Merci,Marc


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> It's a main disco, nuetrals and grounds are all tied together... My concern was can we put two wires under one ternimal??? Answer: NO!
> 
> Thank you everyone!





480sparky said:


> Have you even read 408.41?


 As 480Sparky did mention 408.41 also please check the manufacter details it will listed in there as well.

I know there are couple breaker panels are listéd in that way.

Merci,Marc


----------

