# How much FR?



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Personally I wouldn't add anything to them that didn't come from the factory. To me it would be like modifying a parachute, just too much to loose if something is not perfect.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

That falls in line with the stickers that workers like to put on their hardhats. I believe there is some restriction to which types, and what the hardhat has been rated for.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Pierre Belarge said:


> That falls in line with the stickers that workers like to put on their hardhats. I believe there is some restriction to which types, and what the hardhat has been rated for.


How is a sticker going to compromise a hardhat?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> How is a sticker going to compromise a hardhat?


 it wont. but it will hide any damage.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

i dont think i would add anything to your fr either. just too much liability.

are you guys wearing fr all the time or just when they need it?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Surely this question has a real answer. I can't be the only one who wants to add company branding to FR clothing.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

mattsilkwood said:


> it wont. but it will hide any damage.


True, but an idiot trying to wear a damaged hardhat deserves all that's coming to him.


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## ralpha494 (Oct 29, 2008)

2009 NFPA 70E 130.7 (C)(16)(d) says in part "When trim, name tags, and/or logos are affixed to FR clothing, guidance in ASTM F 1506, _Standard Performance Specification for Flame Resistant Textile Materials for Wearing Apparel for Use by_ _Electrical Workers Exposed to Momentary Electric Arc and Related Thermal Hazards _shal be followed.

It probably says whatever the manufacturer says, which would probably be FR thread and patches.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

ralpha494 said:


> 2009 NFPA 70E 130.7 (C)(16)(d) says in part "When trim, name tags, and/or logos are affixed to FR clothing, guidance in ASTM F 1506, _Standard Performance Specification for Flame Resistant Textile Materials for Wearing Apparel for Use by_ _Electrical Workers Exposed to Momentary Electric Arc and Related Thermal Hazards _shal be followed.


There you go then. Awesome. Thanks!


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

That's cool to know, but has anyone ever uttered the words "Poor fellow. He might have lived if it weren't for that name tag"...?


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

InPhase277 said:


> True, but an idiot trying to wear a damaged hardhat deserves all that's coming to him.


 i agree but it seems like theyre trying to stupid proof everything any more. it wont be long untill were not allowed to go to work, i mean just look at how many work related injuries happen at work.

can you tell i played with sticks and rocks as a child?:thumbup:


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## Mr. Sparkle (Jan 27, 2009)

Reminds me......a friend of mine has a kid and he is so unbelievably overprotected sometimes I want to rip him away from the mom and roll him in dirt outside to prove it's o.k.........It is absolutely crazy, they have rags over every air duct :blink:, purell all over the house......I fear for this child.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I see many companies with their logo in their FR coveralls. Ordered this way.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Mr. Sparkle said:


> Reminds me......a friend of mine has a kid and he is so unbelievably overprotected sometimes I want to rip him away from the mom and roll him in dirt outside to prove it's o.k.........It is absolutely crazy, they have rags over every air duct :blink:, purell all over the house......I fear for this child.


 i know some people like that to. 
kinda makes you wanna give him a bb gun and a pocket knife huh.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

I heard second hand from the safety lady on a job that the stickers thing had to do with conductivity and stickers possibly ruining the non conductivity of hard hats. 
Not sure that really makes sense to me, and naturally, the next thing she did was hand out the "I've had job xyz safety training" sticker for everyone to put on their hard hat:thumbup:


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## Shado (Jan 1, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> Not sure that really makes sense to me, and naturally, the next thing she did was hand out the "I've had job xyz safety training" sticker for everyone to put on their hard hat:thumbup:


Thats one of them new safety stickers!! 
They are nonconductive...If one were to come into contact with electricity....they inflate, pop open, and a blanket drops out and envelops you....:whistling2::laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Shado said:


> Thats one of them new safety stickers!!
> They are nonconductive...If one were to come into contact with electricity....they inflate, pop open, and a blanket drops out and envelops you....:whistling2::laughing:


Certain things, _only the Shado knows. _


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## slowforthecones (Sep 13, 2008)

5.11 Tactical makes some really good flame retardant treated clothing in their ERT and FRX3 line. I had a pic on here of me wearing their FRX3 line as standard operating clothing.

*FLASH Pants Description:*

Durable, comfortable and functional
Fire resistant
8.5 oz. FR-x3™ canvas fabric
Self-adjusting tunnel waist
Traditional 5.11 pant style
48 bartacks
Triple Stitching
Welted wallet pocket
Kneepad pockets
 Law Enforcement and Fire personnel face the dangers of exposure to flame on a daily basis. 5.11 Tactical Series has responded to this danger with the development of a series of FLASH™ products designed specifically for flame related environments. Our new FLASH™ Pants, modeled after our classic 5.11 Tactical Pants, is made with our exclusive FR-x3™ canvas fabric. Fr-x3™ is a revolutionary new fire-retardant fabric exclusive to 5.11 Tactical. This unique material inherits cotton’s natural breathability, comfort and ease of care. Its fire-retardant nature is inherent to the fabric and does not wash or wear out. FR-x3™ exceeds minimum standards in NFPA tests for after-flame and no-drip properties according to ASTM D6413. If you are looking for protection from flame in your attire, be sure to use the reliability and quality or our new FLASH™ Pants. 
*Durability*
Modeled after our classic 5.11 Tactical Pants, our new FLASH™ Pants has all the features you’ll need for tough duty work. Made of durable 8.5-oz. FR-x3™ canvas and constructed with traditional 5.11 toughness the FLASH™ Pants has unique fire retardant qualities to protect you from flame related environments. In addition to the traditional seven pockets, we’ve added a welted wallet pocket, included a self-adjusting tunnel waistband and kept the traditional 5.11 utility strap. Our double reinforced knees include pockets for our Kneepads so you’ll be protected even when you’re on the ground. Our front and back pockets have reinforced edges to protect the material from fraying when using knife or flashlight clips. The cell phone/magazine pocket is reinforced with an extra layer of material to prevent fraying and wear out. We’ve reinforced the knees with an extra layer of material and turned that into kneepad pockets. You can count on the FLASH™ Pants to protect you in very extreme environments. 
*Comfort*
Fit and comfort are the hallmarks of our classic 5.11 Tactical Pants design. We’ve made the FLASH™ Pants with wider leg openings giving the pant more of a boot cut for extra room. The self-adjusting tunnel waist provides added comfort and versatility and our button closure and quality YKK® zipper ensures comfort and ease of use. The belt loops can accommodate our entire belt line and are heavy duty for carrying gear on the waist. You can count the FLASH™ Pants to provide you comfort and protection.
*Functionality*
When you work in a hazardous environment and face the possibility of fire, our FLASH™ Pants are a must. Our exclusive fire retardant FR-x3 materials are an exceptional value when it comes to protecting you from the extreme dangers of fire. 5.11 Tactical Series is committed to providing you with quality products at an affordable price.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've done some weird things in my lifetime, but wearing specialized flasher's pants is not one of them.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> I've done some weird things in my lifetime, but wearing specialized flasher's pants is not one of them.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> True, but an idiot trying to wear a damaged hardhat deserves all that's coming to him.


I think the point is, a sticker will conceal a developing crack, and the worker will not be aware of it.

If someone knows of damage, and deliberately covers it with a sticker, then I agree with you.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

mattsilkwood said:


> it wont. but it will hide any damage.


There is no way to know what a sticker is made of so they are not recommended for use on class E hard hats per ASTM Z89 and are banned for use on class E hard hat by several state OSHA programs. Nto only can they hide a defect they can be conductive and should not be placed closer than 3/8" from the edge and should be limited to 1 per panel per Z89 and federal OSHA regulations. But this has been discussed here before so if you want to argue about it start a new thread so we dont hijack this one.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

slowforthecones said:


> 5.11 Tactical makes some really good flame retardant treated clothing in their ERT and FRX3 line. I had a pic on here of me wearing their FRX3 line as standard operating clothing.
> 
> 
> *FLASH Pants Description:*
> ...


This line os for flash fire protection and not arc flash protection. No ATPV ratings so not 70E compliant.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Are there any special requirements for uniform patches, embroidery, and screen printing on FR rated clothing?


According to ASTM F1506-02a Section 6.1, "Thread, findings and closures used in garment construction shall not contribute to the severity of injuries to the wearer in the event of a momentary electric arc or related thermal exposure."

Also pertinent is Section 6.1.1 "Sewing thread utilized in the construction of garments shall be made of an inherently flame-resistant fiber and shall not melt when tested at a temperature of 260 (degrees celcius, or 500 degrees fehrenheit) in accordance with Federal Test Method Standard 191A, 1534."

In the best interest of your worker's safety, any consumer of Electrical Specific PPE should narrow their decision making process to manufacturers who employ the most conservative interpretation to ASTM Sections 6.1 and 6.1.1.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> That's cool to know, but has anyone ever uttered the words "Poor fellow. He might have lived if it weren't for that name tag"...?


The arc rating of the clothing * system * is the key here. Non FR clothing is allowed as underlayers as long as they are non melting (Like cotton T-shirt) and these underlayers depend on the FR outer layers to prevent ignition. Non FR thread used in patches (And other parts like hems and seams on the cheapo FR clothing you can find on the market) can allow for ignotion of the non FR underlayers. When the underlayer ignites the FR outer layer acts like a kiln, increasing the burn injuries.


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## Faultfinder1 (Apr 21, 2009)

Another thing to be careful of - with the fairly recent upsurge in the demand for FR clothing there are a lot of fakes out there. Any fool can design and sew in some sort of label claiming FR properties on non-FR fabric. They can make a ton of cash until they get caught - if they ever do. 
FR is very popular in California I hear, people wear it as everyday clothing because of the forest fires. When did FR get trendy?
Just make sure you buy your FR from a reliable source, is all I'm saying. 

www.faultlocating.com


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Faultfinder1 said:


> Just make sure you buy your FR from a reliable source, is all I'm saying.
> 
> www.faultlocating.com


 
Very true. There are really only about 3 different arc rated fabrics out there. And there are hundereds of companies making arc flash clothing, they buy the bulk fabric from Westex (Indura), Dupont (Nomex), or AGO (PBI) and make the garments. 

I did a research project on the differences in ten different 8 cal/cm2 coveralls using Indura Ultra soft to compare the construction and the results were all over. I pulled the thread out of the hems, some of the threads used were a meltable material, nylon or a blend and when I put my ligher under them they burned fast, hard, and hot. Lots of differences in construction features and quality. 

Very little testing is done by the garment manufacturers because the material is already tested and rated, but a friend of mine that tests garments for a living has seen a lot of varied results.


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## Faultfinder1 (Apr 21, 2009)

Sort-of still on topic, when the company that I worked for went to all FR a lot of the guys complained. I set up one of my safety meetings around the value of FR clothing in which I actually used a lighter to set fire to various common fabrics using real articles of clothing. It is interesting to see what really happens when clothes come "under fire". I ended up using a propane torch to light a FR shirt, and even then I only charred a small hole! Impressive.


www.faultlocating.com


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## thekoolcody (Aug 30, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Are there any special requirements for uniform patches, embroidery, and screen printing on FR rated clothing?


I dont Believe So On FR Clothing


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## thekoolcody (Aug 30, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> I think the point is, a sticker will conceal a developing crack, and the worker will not be aware of it.
> 
> If someone knows of damage, and deliberately covers it with a sticker, then I agree with you.


 
+1 :thumbsup:


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## Richard Rowe (May 25, 2009)

I am assuming FR is Fire Retardant which we all know is not Fire Proof(or won't burn). Keep in mind that the fabric rating is made when the cloth goes through its last treatment. When the cloth is cut and sewn it may pick-up oils or some type of chemical that may burn. When you wear this clothing any chemical you may get on them may cause them to burn even if the flame is removed from the cloth. Not saying that its not a good idea but just remember what you FR clothing has been through that could affect its performance.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

Richard Rowe said:


> I am assuming FR is Fire Retardant which we all know is not Fire Proof(or won't burn). Keep in mind that the fabric rating is made when the cloth goes through its last treatment. When the cloth is cut and sewn it may pick-up oils or some type of chemical that may burn. When you wear this clothing any chemical you may get on them may cause them to burn even if the flame is removed from the cloth. Not saying that its not a good idea but just remember what you FR clothing has been through that could affect its performance.


Thats why it is important to follow the manufactures care and laundering instructions, improper laundering can lower the ATPV of the clothing.


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