# basement lighting



## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

If you don't have painted drywall on the ceiling and walls, don't expect much light out of recessed.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

No walls, or ceilings. 
The versilites are discs that mount on a 4" round box. I liked the look. But am debating swapping them to something that doesn't focus down


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Square open dish builders fixtures


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

8 pull chain sockets with 100w A lamps. Use CFL if you're feeling green.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Put up strips and wire up a couple of the versilites as night light.


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

You mean the Lithonia Versi Lite? They distribute light in a fairly narrow cone, all of it down. How high is the ceiling? Is it painted white?


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> Ok guys, here's my deal. My basement is about 40' by 25'.
> I have old 8' 2 lamp t12 fixtures located in quadrents.
> The fixtures are old and failing, so I want to do something new.
> I roughed one side for 8 fixtures in 2 evenly spaced rows.
> ...


I would install 4' T-5 Ho strip lights, you can even get them in an 8' 4 lamp HO but they will give you tons of light and they're great in the cold air..


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I was thinking of going back to strips. With no reflectors , seems to give the most light. 
I do like led light, and the reduced load. That's why I went with the original replacements. 
But I shouldn't have re invented the wheel....


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

If you want an LED solution, you might give Lithonia's STLED a try. Simkar's SY920 and SLPLED are also possibilities.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

randolph333 said:


> You mean the Lithonia Versi Lite? They distribute light in a fairly narrow cone, all of it down. How high is the ceiling? Is it painted white?


I hate that thing with a passion and I think it's pure junk that puts ultra terrible light. It has a flicker percentage of 100%, like LED Christmas lights and about billion times worse flicker than F40T12, because, there's no filtration in rectification circuits. 

There's a general trend of pairing light emitting decorations with a driver that has a terrible regulation. It's an oops in Energy Star rule. Decorative solid state lighting design engineers have figured out a way to meet the specs but slash relevant real life performance.



randolph333 said:


> If you want an LED solution


You forgot something: 

In order to avoid LEDish crapiness , it's important to slam down. 
The sample specification lines are perfect other than needing a few writing mechanic tweaking to meet professional writing standards  


"flicker index shall not exceed 0.02, and flicker percentage shall not exceed 10 % across the entire intended usable range. Installed system shall not exhibit beating and pulsing caused by dimmer-driver-lol LED interaction. Performance standards for flickering and pulsing characteristic of LEDness shall apply throughout the full duration of warranty. Installing contractor shall be responsible for coordination with vendors to ensure ultimate conformance of lol LED system performance with specifications"


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

That's a good warning. I'd assumed that flicker was a solved problem—and it is a solved problem, unless the driver manufacturer is incredibly cheap—so thanks very much. Are there any driver manufacturers or integrated fixture suppliers you would suggest?

DoE Flicker Fact Sheet, March 2013.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

randolph333 said:


> That's a good warning. I'd assumed that flicker was a solved problem—and it is a solved problem, unless the *driver manufacturer is incredibly cheap*—so thanks very much. Are there any driver manufacturers or integrated fixture suppliers you would suggest?


Of course they are cheap. If you do not pencil in on the specifications that corners must be filled in and not filling them in reduces the cost, they will not get filled. 



> DoE Flicker Fact Sheet, March 2013.


A huge problem is that if it's not in the specifications, they reserve the right to make engineering changes. At first, they may start the product with beefy build to earn good reviews or let competitive technologies rot out somewhere in Bentonville, Arkansas (A home to a well known company that runs like that, whom you can figure out, but shall remain unamed...) ,use conservative engineering design to so that they do not fail in the field while they try out el cheapo in the laboratory. 

CREE LED bulb lamps are good examples. 
Initial version used 20 LEDs 
2nd edition revision uses 10 LEDs
2nd model called 4 FLOW uses 8 LEDs

That's for the same output. LEDs are getting driven progressively harder in each design and generally the manufacturer's overwhelming concern is reducing manufacturing cost. 

Are they F96T12/75W (one pin per end) or are they F96T12/110W (twin per recessed contact)? 

I would convert them over to F96T8/59W (requires a new ballast for each fixture) and put the lamps in safety sleeves. In cold weather, this will substantially improve the output. 

There's positively no reason for Light Emitting Decorations with what you pay for electricity through Seattle City Light, which is one of the nation's cheapest source of power.

Get a Wattstoppers or Pass & Seymour brand vacancy sensor and set it for 30 minutes. These brands use a relay, so they work correctly with electronic ballasts. A vacancy sensor is like a normal light switch as you have to push to turn it on, and if you push again, it turns off. If you forget to turn it off, it will turn itself off after 30 minutes. It is very effective in power conservation, because you will never accidentally leave the lights on. 

No LEDs are necessary to accomplish your goal.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

randolph333 said:


> That's a good warning. I'd assumed that *flicker was a solved problem*—and it is a solved problem, unless the driver manufacturer is incredibly cheap—so thanks very much. Are there any driver manufacturers or integrated fixture suppliers you would suggest?
> 
> DoE Flicker Fact Sheet, March 2013.


No, it is a newly created problem, because, there are no law or prevailing industry standards right now that regulate flicker performance. Go take a picture of something with your cell phone camera while the area is lit up by the Versi Lite Light Emitting Decoration accessory kit you just bought. 

A distinct LED infested symptom is the ability to see "multiple images" of your hand as you wave it or zebra stripes in in photos due to flickering. 
The contrast between dark and light bands are barely visible with a high quality electronically ballasted fluorescent systems while it will be objectionably visible under some LED lights. 

(in my opinion... from worst to best in terms of flicker index) 

Unfiltered driver: Atrocious. Most LED Christmas Lights, Lithonia Versi Lite, many older "re-wire" type tube shape LED retrofits. 

Poor: HPS
Somewhat poor: Metal halide, some CFL, many LED lamp products, magnetically ballasted fluorescent, poorly made electronic ballasts

pretty good: incandescent lamps. 

Excellent: most CFLs, most electronic T8/T5. Many have less flicker than incandescent, because many use very high quality smoothing that minimizes current ripple flowing through lamps. A high quality electronic ballast is a form of regulated power supply, just like those powering your computers and electronics. 

Using 150W incandescent bulbs with a vacancy sensor and positively eliminating lights from getting left on will dramatically lower the running time. When the run time is lowered to this level, I doubt further reduction using :laughing: ED will save you enough to buy you a cup of Starbucks a month.


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

I would say: check out what you're thinking of buying. LEDs do have positives other than energy savings.


Good quality LED fixtures are lower maintenance than any other technology. A facilities manager I know prefers them for this reason - they save her employer tons of money. Even in home use, disposing of spent tubes is a nuisance and a large number of incandescent fixtures is more than a nuisance, as well as something of a fire hazard.

There is a general preference for the light from LEDs against the light from all but the best fluorescent tubes.

A bit of research turns up this method to detect flicker: "we also discovered that the best way for a consumer to test whether a LED lamp flickers or not is to look at the operating lamp through a digital camera display (such as the mobile phone camera display). The displays usually refresh at 30 frames per second which is slower than the 100 Hz modulation of mains voltage. So the flicker that is not visible with naked eye becomes visible on the display. Large fluctuations (i.e. large flicker percentages) are clearly recorded as striped images on the display." Ironically, this comes from an article suggesting that flicker may not be so bad: LED Flicker: A Drawback or an Opportunity?

So I say check out what you're thinking of buying and make careful decisions.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

randolph333 said:


> I would say: check out what you're thinking of buying. LEDs do have positives other than energy savings.
> Good quality LED fixtures are lower maintenance than any *other technology*. *A* facilities manager *I know* prefers them for this reason - they save her employer tons of money. Even in home use, disposing of spent tubes is a nuisance and a large number of incandescent fixtures is more than a nuisance, as well as something of a fire hazard.


In what application(s)? I would agree you that for alarm clock digits and indicator lamps like the one on your TV set showing "power" status. An anecdotal evidence is not a good supporting evidence unless supported by specific evidence that can relate the gain to LEDs and not simultaneously placed performance reduction. I think everyone here knows I hold pro LED comment to very high burden of proof  

Your argument A > B, therefore A > all fails to provide adequate supporting argument. 



> There is a general preference for the light from LEDs against the light from all but the best fluorescent tubes.


I disagree and I don't see any convincing evidence and survey that indicates inclination that there's a statistically significant preference verified by double blind test and a disclosed of sample selection method.

This is a good reminder why they should let me add a page long list of
"shall be" items in specifications so LED product falls or becomes short of measured initial, maintained performance metrics, qualitative items, warranty obligations that hold LED vendors 101% responsible for falling short of best most economic non-LED alternative. I have about 250 items I want to tack on. 



> A bit of research turns up this method to detect flicker: "we also discovered that the best way for a consumer to test whether a LED lamp flickers or not is to look at the operating lamp through a digital camera display (such as the mobile phone camera display). The displays usually refresh at 30 frames per second which is slower than the 100 Hz modulation of mains voltage. So the flicker that is not visible with naked eye becomes visible on the display. Large fluctuations (i.e. large flicker percentages) are clearly recorded as striped images on the display."


Which means video and photographic imaging device interaction compatibility criteria needs to go into the "LED shall be" list. This list may never get noticed if there's no problem, but if there is, the customer can be rightfully be advised they're entitled to withhold payments until the issue is addressed reference specification LED section item #452. LED based technology has a lot of uncertainties and an airtight contract specifications writing is necessary so all the risks stay on the GCs account. 



> Ironically, this comes from an article suggesting that flicker may not be so bad: LED Flicker: A Drawback or an Opportunity?
> 
> So I say check out what you're thinking of buying and make careful decisions.


Depends on the application. The cost of correcting dissatisfaction needs to get kicked back to the GC. 

I suggest: 
LED lighting shall have equal or better compatibility than the cost leading alternative for current and future any and all foreseeable reasonable use of the owner and tenants, including, but not limited to manufacturing process where rotating machinery needs to not appear as stopped or disguise the manner of actual rotational action.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> In what application(s)? I would agree you that for alarm clock digits and indicator lamps like the one on your TV set showing "power" status. An anecdotal evidence is not a good supporting evidence unless supported by specific evidence that can relate the gain to LEDs and not simultaneously placed performance reduction. I think everyone here knows I hold pro LED comment to very high burden of proof
> 
> Your argument A > B, therefore A > all fails to provide adequate supporting argument.
> 
> ...


It seems like you're a lobbyist for incandescent light fixtures. 
Seriously if every thread pertaining to led's turns into a jumping block for you to start a 3 page rant on them I may consider blocking you, nothing personal


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## Black Dog (Oct 16, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> It seems like you're a lobbyist for incandescent light fixtures.
> Seriously if every thread pertaining to led's turns into a jumping block for you to start a 3 page rant on them I may consider blocking you, nothing personal


Indeed he's putting up a fight against those who wish to restrict our choises in lighting, LED lighting systems are all the rage with un-proven life spans.
and all the good lighting we have been using is being destroyed as we speak, for nothing more than politics.:no:


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

sorry, harry, meant to add PROFITS!


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

I just don't need to hear the speech every thread related to lighting.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Indeed he's putting up a fight against those who wish to restrict our choises in lighting, LED lighting systems are all the rage with un-proven life spans.
> and all the good lighting we have been using is being destroyed as we speak, for nothing more than politics.:no:


This is not true. He is not putting up a fight against those who wish to restrict our choices in lighting. He is putting up a fight against LED's.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Black Dog said:


> Indeed he's putting up a fight against those who wish to restrict our choises in lighting, LED lighting systems are all the rage with un-proven life spans.
> and all the good lighting we have been using is being destroyed as we speak, for nothing more than politics.:no:


Cue Harry and his usual nonsense. You guys fought the change to cfl, now the change to led, all while making your self look silly. Our entire economic system is based on progress, not continuing to use 40 year old light technology.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Did this guy really just recommend a t8 light to be installed on 2015? REALLY?


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd go with 6" recessed cans and LED trim pieces.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Black Dog said:


> Indeed he's putting up a fight against those who wish to restrict our choises in lighting, LED lighting systems are all the rage with un-proven life spans.
> and all the good lighting we have been using is being destroyed as we speak, for nothing more than politics.:no:


LED fixtures are so new that we don't understand them too well and there are many misconceptions about them. 

"Good quality LED fixtures are lower maintenance than any other technology. A facilities manager I know prefers them for this reason - they save her employer tons of money."

You can predict the maintenance cost of traditional systems from plentiful historical data. LED sales statements really only mean "We believe that LEDs are theoretically the lowest maintenance, longest life". Field observations are often inappropriately extrapolated by sales people such as taking "before" and "after" measurement under unclear "before" conditions and presumption that "after" conditions will continue for the life of the fixtures. Without a good warranty and a solidly written contractual obligations that absolutely leave all the unknown risks associated with emerging technology on the GC, it could actually waste money, a lot of it. 

"There is a general preference for the light from LEDs against the light from all but the best fluorescent tubes." 

This goes into the infomercial testimonials bin as this statement is not verifiable as generally accepted in lighting design field as a whole. To make this comparison, you have to use time and cost appropriate materials. It may not be proper to use F40CW that is obsolete in the fluorescent bin and use LED fixtures in the 90 and above percentile price range. 

I would say a fair evaluation compares a handful of volume leading fluorescent systems equipped with currently legal lamps which are RE80 and the newly introduced technical compliance lamps vs current LED systems that are price appropriate with these systems. 



mcclary's electrical said:


> Our entire economic system is based on progress, not continuing to use 40 year old light technology.


Old technology doesn't mean bad. We still use engines, alternators and electric motors based on 100+ year old core technology.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> LED fixtures are so new that we don't understand them too well and there are many misconceptions about them.
> 
> "Good quality LED fixtures are lower maintenance than any other technology. A facilities manager I know prefers them for this reason - they save her employer tons of money."
> 
> ...


Are you completely bonkers? Because the only person I know that continued to type page long rants when everyone has asked them to stop is Harry. And he is bonkers also.


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## Barjack (Mar 28, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Are you completely bonkers? Because the only person I know that continued to type page long rants when everyone has asked them to stop is Harry. And he is bonkers also.



You weren't here for Piperunner…


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

Barjack said:


> You weren't here for Piperunner…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


Piperunner was good for a laugh, I always enjoyed how defensive and out of joint he got when challenged. Electric Light is just sanctimonious, and if you've read one of his posts you've read them all. :sleep1:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

How anyone in this day and age can be against LED is something I cannot figure out.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

In mine I placed sconces on the wall along with down lighting. I was looking for a theater-like look and am satisfied.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Yeah my basment is not finished at all. I was looking at basic, and bright. 
And cheap too, LOL


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Cue Harry and his usual nonsense. You guys fought the change to cfl, now the change to led, all while making your self look silly. Our entire economic system is based on progress, not continuing to use 40 year old light technology.


I can understand the fight against CFL's. No comparison between CFL's and new LED technology. CFL's are junk. Just about any application I've used CFL's for has been a disappointing failure. The supposed light output just isn't there and they're worthless for any application that is either too cold or too hot. I realize that LED's have their drawbacks and you need to be sure that you're buying quality fixtures but I've installed piles of them and have had very little trouble. If you're going to use fluorescents, make sure you use linear fixtures and not those worthless CFL retrofit bulbs.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> I can understand the fight against CFL's. No comparison between CFL's and new LED technology. CFL's are junk. Just about any application I've used CFL's for has been a disappointing failure. The supposed light output just isn't there and they're worthless for any application that is either too cold or too hot. I realize that LED's have their drawbacks and you need to be sure that you're buying quality fixtures but I've installed piles of them and have had very little trouble. If you're going to use fluorescents, make sure you use linear fixtures and not those worthless CFL retrofit bulbs.


I've been very happy with CFLs over the years. The light output is exactly what I would expect, as is the life. They are efficient and inexpensive.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

NacBooster29 said:


> Yeah my basment is not finished at all. I was looking at basic, and bright.
> And cheap too, LOL


Operating temperature range?
Hours per day? 
Expected on-time per switch-on? 
Ceiling height? 
Cost of power per kWh? 
Time of Use rate or no? 
Do you have a picture of the ceiling?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

NacBooster29 said:


> Yeah my basment is not finished at all. I was looking at basic, and bright.
> And cheap too, LOL


You can't have cheap and bright! If you want fluorescents, I'd go with 4' wraps. If you want a real "white" light, install 6500k lamps. 
If you want LED's, you might want to try LED disc lights from Sylvania.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Operating temperature range?
> Hours per day?
> Expected on-time per switch-on?
> Ceiling height?
> ...


Imagine a 2*10....with plywood sub floor above. There it is. LOL


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

wendon said:


> You can't have cheap and bright! If you want fluorescents, I'd go with 4' wraps. If you want a real "white" light, install 6500k lamps.
> If you want LED's, you might want to try LED disc lights from Sylvania.


That's almost exactly what I installed. 
They are bright. But all the light is in a cone shape straight down. Leaving a lot of dark in the upper areas and ceiling area... Not a huge deal. 
But I see why people install strips with no reflectors. So the light dispurses all directions . 
I may just go with strips again


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

HackWork said:


> I've been very happy with CFLs over the years. The light output is exactly what I would expect, as is the life. They are efficient and inexpensive.


Yuck!  Put them in a location where the temperature never gets above or below 50F and you might be okay. Put them in a light fixture and they'll burn out. Put them in a cold location and they're junk. Put them in an unsightly porcelain fixture and they might at least last a long as an incandescent bulb.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

NacBooster29 said:


> That's almost exactly what I installed.
> They are bright. But all the light is in a cone shape straight down. Leaving a lot of dark in the upper areas and ceiling area... Not a huge deal.
> But I see why people install strips with no reflectors. So the light dispurses all directions .
> I may just go with strips again


You're talking about a light like this one?









Fluorescent wraps work very well for lighting the ceiling up. If you're talking open floor joists, you're going to have a hard time getting much reflectivity off the ceiling. Not matter what you use, you're going to need a number of lights.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

wendon said:


> Yuck!  Put them in a location where the temperature never gets above or below 50F and you might be okay. Put them in a light fixture and they'll burn out. Put them in a cold location and they're junk. Put them in an unsightly porcelain fixture and they might at least last a long as an incandescent bulb.


I have them in all the lamps and light fixtures in multiple houses and I've never had a problem. 

Well, I do notice one is a little dimmer when it's below 15° out. No biggie.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

The syvania's have a better distribution than the Lithonia or halos. I would never ever use a 6500 in anything but an industrial environment. 6500 is gross.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> The syvania's have a better distribution than the Lithonia or halos. I would never ever use a 6500 in anything but an industrial environment. 6500 is gross.


Well, if he's going to be manufacturing "stuff" in his basement, I'd call that an industrial environment!:laughing: 5000's would be fine too.:thumbsup: Or maybe:


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

On thing that would help your basement lighting is installing a white ceiling. Also, if the ceiling is dark, the space will seem dark even if there is adequate light on work surfaces. This does cost, however.

To costs, it's likely that fluorescent wraparounds are the least expensive in the short term. LEDs might save a little money in the long term. They do have the advantages of low maintenance and sometimes-preferable light quality. Besides, you don't have to dispose of fluorescent tubes, which is a nuisance. At this point LEDs have been around long enough so that their maintenance advantage is clear, but cheap drivers can take that away and, as EL points out, flicker can be a problem, so _caveat emptor_.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

wendon said:


> I can understand the fight against CFL's. No comparison between *CFL's and new LED technology. CFL's are junk. Just about any application I've used CFL's for has been a disappointing failure.* The supposed light output just isn't there and they're worthless for any application that is either too cold or too hot. I realize that LED's have their drawbacks and you need to be sure that you're buying quality fixtures but I've installed piles of them and have had very little trouble. If you're going to use fluorescents, make sure you use linear fixtures and not those worthless CFL retrofit bulbs.


Solid state fluorescent lamps and regular CFLs are nearly identical except for the lamp element. The US DOE recognizes disappointing failures that plagued CFLs, so the Energy Star guidelines that apply to LEDs are upgraded in an attempt to address this. Don't forget that some newer LED lamps have a temperature sensor that throttles itself down to prevent self destruction, which will actually make the system operate in permanently dimmed conditions after fully warmed up. 

This is not an LED vs CFL difference. Limiting the comparison of failure rates to between 5,000 CFLs and LEDs made within the past 3 years would likely give a more meaningful results. 



randolph333 said:


> On thing that would help your basement lighting is installing a white ceiling.


This is very true. Ceiling reflectance is a big factor and it's always included into lighting calculation. Try tacking a light colored painter's cloth along the ceiling to observe the difference. White semi-gloss or flat paint on ceiling is something to consider before LED lights. 



> fluorescent wraparounds are the least expensive in the short term. LEDs might save a little money in the long term.


directional LEDs, as well as BR and PAR shaped CFLs can produce a disproportionate performance gain with a dark ceiling, but they are well.. directional, which the topic owner complained about. 

Linear fluorescent is the best when you want a uniform lighting. 8' lamps are difficult to handle and store. So, they're getting phased out in favor of 4' lamps in many applications. 



> They do have the advantages of low maintenance


It depends on how they're used. Long life T8s are rated over 40,000 hrs at 3hrs / day or 80,000 hrs at 12hrs/day. You can expect over 10 years of life in residential use even with ordinary life T8 lamps. 

LEDs and fluorescent can both suffer a driver/ballast failures, like a laptop power cable. This is not a LED/FL lamp matter. 



> and sometimes-preferable light quality.


Unjustifiable biased statement. You can't call 3000K LED solid state fluorescent lamp vs F40CWs fair even though such a comparison can produce " is true" answer to your question. Lack of awareness of the current fluorescent can lead to propagation of misconception due to uninformed word of mouth sharing. 

If the new 2015 model 2700-3000K LED is more likable than the light from the previous 1975 model F40T12 4100K 60 CRI CW, it can be reasonably expected that an ordinary person told "the light is better quality, *BECAUSE, it is LED*" by his installer can spread the gossip by simply parroting it at face value even though the key premise is blatantly wrong. 

I would say the preference is due to the characteristics of phosphors, both in solid state and gaseous discharge fluorescent lamps. 

They're both available in several colors between 2700 to 6500K. In the past, all the white LEDs were 6500K ish, as in flashlights. 




> Besides, you don't have to dispose of fluorescent tubes, which is a nuisance. At this point LEDs have been around long enough so that their maintenance advantage is clear, but cheap drivers can take that away and, as EL points out, flicker can be a problem, so _caveat emptor_.


It's a matter of personal preference for DIY or residential. For commercial and municipal, a peace of mind can be bought by writing a lengthy shall be list that holds the GC and specifier fully liable for LED system that fail to prove increased durability or reduced maintenance cost that is statistically consistent with the sales pitch. if you do not write the specifications properly to leave the obligations of very expensive out of warranty service cost of repairing LED stuff in the installing contractor's court, a very few, but very expensive repairs can nuke all the savings. 

Have you seen how much circuit boards for appliances cost? If you're out of warranty, it can rival or exceed a replacement. Remember two service calls. Once to figure out. Once to come back with proprietary special order part. What if this repair requires a scissor? 

Presently, that is how it is with LED fixtures if they're even repairable. 

Fluorescent: 2 lamp F32T8. 2 lamp F54T5HO. Those are all you need to know to get a drop-in comparable replacement ballast that fits physically and electrically. 

A driver failure on a Light Emitting Decoration system can get very difficult to fix due to non traditional driver and it can easily cost several times the value of a residential grade lol LED fixture. The retail price on just the parts for special order exact match driver probably exceeds the price on the entire fixture's price you pay at Home Depot.


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## nola electrician (Mar 3, 2015)

How anyone in this day and age can be against LED is something I cannot figure out.


I hear ya on that one i have had nothing but success with LEDs myself and always left happy customers


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## nola electrician (Mar 3, 2015)

The trick to those lights in the picture is to take the plastic cover off that chages everyting


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## randolph333 (Feb 10, 2015)

EL, sounds like you got burned pretty bad. I don't think the offices I've worked at use similar clauses. Yes, I agree that warranties are important for something that is expected to last over 30 years in 8-hour-a-day use.

My impression is that the light quality of the best fluorescents and LEDs is comparable, and the fluorescents are considerably less expensive.

It is also my impression, backed by some research (which I didn't keep a file of—sorry), that the additional blue in good-quality cool white LEDs is preferred by many people. People don't like CW fluorescents, even relatively good-quality modern ones.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

I do not care for any Fluorescents or Cfl's in a Residence .

I would accomplish the job with Lamps , Trac , Sconces , Desk lamp or High Hats over desk work area and counter tops . 40w to 60w bulbs .

A much warmer living approach .



Pete


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

pete87 said:


> I do not care for any Fluorescents or Cfl's in a Residence .
> 
> I would accomplish the job with Lamps , Trac , Sconces , Desk lamp or High Hats over desk work area and counter tops . 40w to 60w bulbs .
> 
> ...


Yeah as I stated in posts 1, 9, 14 
My basement is unfinished space.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

This is how your posts should start:



Electric_Light said:


> *Call me Ishmael. *Solid state fluorescent lamps and regular CFLs are nearly identical except for the lamp element. The US DOE recognizes disappointing failures that plagued CFLs, so the Energy Star guidelines that apply to LEDs are upgraded in an attempt to address this. Don't forget that some newer LED lamps have a temperature sensor that throttles itself down to prevent self destruction, which will actually make the system operate in permanently dimmed conditions after fully warmed up.
> 
> This is not an LED vs CFL difference. Limiting the comparison of failure rates to between 5,000 CFLs and LEDs made within the past 3 years would likely give a more meaningful results.
> 
> ...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

NacBooster29 said:


> Yeah as I stated in posts 1, 9, 14
> My basement is unfinished space.


Well Nac, what kind of activities are going on in your basement? Laundry? Storage? Workbench? Extreme hoarding? Most everyone I know, myself included, with an unfinished basement spend so little time in it that investing in any kind of energy saving fixture would not have a good ROI.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

NacBooster29 said:


> Yeah as I stated in posts 1, 9, 14
> My basement is unfinished space.






Well , what would basement be used for ?

I do not like Electronic , Fluorescent , CFL's Lighting . I am a Wood Stove , Edison Fuse man .


Pete


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Sorry for my smart @ss answer Pete. 
We use the basement for laundry machine. We have an area with foam floor tiles set up for the kids to play. 
And I have a pool table, and a table for my trains. 

Nothing fancy, no walls no ceilings...


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I've been very happy with CFLs over the years. The light output is exactly what I would expect, as is the life. They are efficient and inexpensive.


I have them everywhere and my only wish is that "instant on" lamps were available at the time. I installed twenty five in 2010 and they just won't go bad, and I am too cheap to replace them. My wife complains about the warm up time so I just tell her to flip the switch and close her eyes for a minute and think of me.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

NacBooster29 said:


> Sorry for my smart @ss answer Pete.
> We use the basement for laundry machine. We have an area with foam floor tiles set up for the kids to play.
> And I have a pool table, and a table for my trains.
> 
> Nothing fancy, no walls no ceilings...


You've got to answer my questions about hours per day, hours per start and kWh/cost and operating temperature so we can say something useful. 

If you're paying 10-12c/kWh, use it only 2 hours a day, its not important if it lasts 5 years or 10 years IMO. Flicker is likely important. Do you want the cue balls to look like a smooth swoosh or do you want them to look like " o o o o o o o" due to a severe flicker present in some LE Decos?


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> You've got to answer my questions about hours per day, hours per start and kWh/cost and operating temperature so we can say something useful.
> 
> If you're paying 10-12c/kWh, use it only 2 hours a day, its not important if it lasts 5 years or 10 years IMO. Flicker is likely important. Do you want the cue balls to look like a smooth swoosh or do you want them to look like " o o o o o o o" due to a severe flicker present in some LE Decos?


Hours per day...varies
Kwh....don't know don't care
Flicker doesn't matter....its a basement
Bright is better.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

What ever happened to that lighting guy from Florida? He was really good.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> What ever happened to that lighting guy from Florida? He was really good.


He's still mad at us.


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

NacBooster29 said:


> Sorry for my smart @ss answer Pete.
> We use the basement for laundry machine. We have an area with foam floor tiles set up for the kids to play.
> And I have a pool table, and a table for my trains.
> 
> Nothing fancy, no walls no ceilings...




POOL ? Now were talkin , Slate Table , Leather Catch Pockets ...

Go with 1 or 2 Pendant Lamps over table , with big reflector . You know the type .



Pete


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

32w F32T8, 3 or 4 lamp wrap arounds which resist cold ambient better than strips. If you want bold brightness, you could get close to 20,000 delivered and maintained lumens with F32T8 six lamp or F54T5/HO 4 lamp high-bay fixtures. 

F96T8 59W. 8 foot equivalent. 

Both of the above have exceptionally good lumen maintenance. 

F96T12/941/HO/SS/ECO. This one is a recessed double contact if you already have high output T12 fixtures. Rated 95W and 8,000 lumens per lamp. With the lamp rated efficacy of 84 lumens per watt, it's very competitive with all but the most expensive LEDs.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> 32w F32T8, 3 or 4 lamp wrap arounds which resist cold ambient better than strips. If you want bold brightness, you could get close to 20,000 delivered and maintained lumens with F32T8 six lamp or F54T5/HO 4 lamp high-bay fixtures.
> 
> F96T8 59W. 8 foot equivalent.
> 
> ...


This is a basement, not a shop. Why would you ever put T5HO's in a basement??? Just install 4' T8 Wraps with 5000k bulbs and a separately switched pool table light over the pool table and move on!:whistling2:


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

wendon said:


> This is a basement, not a shop. Why would you ever put T5HO's in a basement??? Just install 4' T8 Wraps with 5000k bulbs and a separately switched pool table light over the pool table and move on!:whistling2:


2x F54T5/HO back-to-back is a good match if the existing lamps are RDC F96T12/HO/110W, or an increase over standard 8' T12 that thread starter is complaining as inadequate output. F96T12/HO, a 110W T12 8 foot lamp rated at 8,600 lumen gets over 80 lumens per watt with Advance ICN-2S110-SC ballast even with the old cool white phosphor. Starting temp is down to -20F. 
It can surpass many LEDs if you choose RE80 phosphored lamps, but regardless of the lamp type you choose, the flicker performance of F96T12/HO is much superior to Versi Lite LED.


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## ElectricalDesignerIA (Mar 17, 2015)

Cree SL40































55W
4000Lumen
$120


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectricalDesignerIA said:


> Cree SL40
> 
> greenbuildingadvisor..
> :rolleyes: :no:
> ...


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## ElectricalDesignerIA (Mar 17, 2015)

Electric_Light said:


> 1.)
> 
> The only battle that this decorative plastic light generating element fixture has against a high quality traditional fluorescent is the directional light, which the TS specifically said he didn't want.
> 
> ...


All of this is a good argument minus your first point. This is an indirect fixture. That's why I like it so much, it's pleasant to look at. Put your T8's in an indirect housing and your LPW will go down the crapper just the same. You are comparing my fixture to a strip which is not apples to apples.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectricalDesignerIA said:


> All of this is a good argument minus your first point. This is an indirect fixture. That's why I like it so much, it's pleasant to look at. Put your T8's in an indirect housing and your LPW will go down the crapper just the same. You are comparing my fixture to a strip which is not apples to apples.


The topic starter specifically objected to dark ceiling appearance in which case plentiful uplight is desired. This kind of fixture isn't classified as indirect. I believe it's more along the line of a volumetric fixture. I would put a ceiling or paint it white if it were me. 


Thanks for your *opinion *about aesthetics of Decorative Lighting Equipment. 

According to a controlled survey published Last May: Report 21.2: Linear (T8) LED Lamp Performance in Five Types of Recessed Troffers (Prepared for: Solid-State Lighting Program Building Technologies Office Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy U.S. Department of Energy Prepared by: Pacific Northwest National Laboratory); 

fluorescent systems consistently ranked better than LE Decoras. So, there's an inclination towards fluorescent lighting showing superior preference. What have you? 














> Put your T8's in an indirect housing and your LPW will go down the crapper just the same. You are comparing my fixture to a strip which is not apples to apples.













This is called a volumetric fixture, very similar to what LIGHT EMITTING 
DECORATION by CREE you showed us is trying to imitate. It is designed for 48" T8 lamps. "38W" in there is a typo. 

The optics are 86.8% efficient. Super T8 25W, 28 or 32W HL are roughly 100 lumens per watt. Multiplying through, DELIVERED efficacy is 87 lumens-per-watt range. Multiply that by 90%, which is a good value to use for near end of life super T8 and you still have 77 LPW near end of lamp life. 

It can therefore be concluded that this F32T8 fluorescent system is superior to your LED example. The LED version you proposed is only 73 lm/W on the first day, and it is expected to fade down to 50.9lm/W


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> The topic starter specifically objected to dark ceiling appearance in which case plentiful uplight is desired. This kind of fixture isn't classified as indirect. I believe it's more along the line of a volumetric fixture. I would put a ceiling or paint it white if it were me.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your *opinion *about aesthetics of Decorative Lighting Equipment.
> ...


This thread is...........:whistling2:


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## ElectricalDesignerIA (Mar 17, 2015)

Okay all else aside, look at the Cree once more. The LED's are mounted to the backside of the silver bar. Pointed 180 degrees, straight up into the prismatic diffuser. I believe this would fall under indirect. 

I guess the question would be, does the reflecting surface of an indirect have to be the ceiling? 

On the other hand, once it hits the diffuser the light is refracted in a volumetric sense. So maybe it's a combination of the two? Maybe this is a silly discussion? Maybe I should get to work.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You guys do know the OP is talking about lighting an unfinished basement, right?


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

ElectricalDesignerIA said:


> Okay all else aside, look at the Cree once more. The LED's are mounted to the backside of the silver bar. Pointed 180 degrees, straight up into the prismatic diffuser. I believe this would fall under indirect.
> 
> I guess the question would be, does the reflecting surface of an indirect have to be the ceiling?
> 
> On the other hand, once it hits the diffuser the light is refracted in a volumetric sense. So maybe it's a combination of the two? Maybe this is a silly discussion? Maybe I should get to work.


Look up the definition of direct, indirect and semi-direct in IES handbook. Nice try, but I fail to see any tangible specifications in favor of the LOL LED product you named over the comparable type F32T8 high quality fluorescent based products.



sbrn33 said:


> You guys do know the OP is talking about lighting an unfinished basement, right?


Yea! it reinforces that overpriced LED decorative lights are unjustifiable once again.


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## Chris1971 (Dec 27, 2010)

ElectricalDesignerIA said:


> Cree SL40
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those look good. I'll have to buy a few for my laundry room.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Look up the definition of direct, indirect and semi-direct in IES handbook. Nice try, but I fail to see any tangible specifications in favor of the LOL LED product you named over the comparable type F32T8 high quality fluorescent based products.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea! it reinforces that overpriced LED decorative lights are unjustifiable once again.


Better go with those T5HO's with 6500k bulbs so he can do surgery.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

LED = trash.


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

wendon said:


> Better go with those T5HO's with 6500k bulbs so he can do surgery.


Let's steer the topic back into a professional discussion. 

Given the information we have, please provide your explanation of tangible and verifiable advantages offered by the Cree not attainable with equal or less priced fluorescent T8 systems. 

How do these advantages justify the added cost?
How are they verifiable? 

If you're justifying the price, please briefly explain how you arrived at cost of procuring the fixtures.

If any, are those advantages applicable in the application in discussion here? 

Thank you for your insights 




Electric_Light said:


> Super T8 25W, 28 or 32W HL are roughly 100 lumens per watt.


I should clarify this. This is the lamp-ballast system efficacy for a two lamp system. It is the LPW value obtained from output of two lamps divided by power lead input to ballast. It takes ballast factor and ballast losses into account. 

The luminaire efficacy is the lumens exiting the luminaire divided by electrical input. This is lamp ballast system efficacy times the optical efficiency.

Thanks,
Electric Light
=[_______]=










PS: For something more elaborate than household use... 
Continue to insist on L90 life and demand warranty based on L90 performance obligations so the lumen performance loss compared on the same scale as HPT8 and T5. Unless otherwise stated, LED specs use the lower L70 standards. Ask if the wattage is boosted over the useful life in order to maintain the L90 rating. If so, I suggest deducting points. 

It's a good idea to defray the added risk of LEDs for the first year or so with a mandatory retainage written in favor of the buyer.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Electric_Light said:


> Let's steer the topic back into a professional discussion.
> 
> Given the information we have, please provide your explanation of tangible and verifiable advantages offered by the Cree not attainable with equal or less priced fluorescent T8 systems.
> 
> ...


I'd say let's steer this discussion back to the original OP. He wants to light an area which just happens to be an unfinished basement. Why hasn't anyone suggested keyless porcelains? Then he can install whatever retro bulb he wants. He could put one of every style and make in and have his own testing lab. He, being an electrician, will probably install his own fixtures etc. so it wouldn't make sense for him to make out a contract with himself stating that if any of the LED's, CFL's, Linear fluorescents, Incandescent bulbs, Metal Halides, High Pressure Sodiums, Mercury vapors, Induction fluorescents, Arc lights, candles, etc. etc. fail within a year, he'll offer free replacement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Electric_Light said:


> Let's steer the topic back into a professional discussion.


We can't do that while you are here since you are not a professional. This is an electrician forum and you are far from it.

While someone with knowledge of a particular product might be beneficial to the forum, you have proven yourself to be nothing but a biased shill. Your motives are clear and your information cannot be trusted. Your posts are nothing more than annoying spam.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

MTW said:


> LED = trash.


Why would you say that? I use them all the time. They are great for signs, outdoor lighting and tons of other lighting needs.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

wendon said:


> I'd say let's steer this discussion back to the original OP. He wants to light an area which just happens to be an unfinished basement. Why hasn't anyone suggested keyless porcelains? Then he can install whatever retro bulb he wants. He could put one of every style and make in and have his own testing lab. He, being an electrician, will probably install his own fixtures etc. so it wouldn't make sense for him to make out a contract with himself stating that if any of the LED's, CFL's, Linear fluorescents, Incandescent bulbs, Metal Halides, High Pressure Sodiums, Mercury vapors, Induction fluorescents, Arc lights, candles, etc. etc. fail within a year, he'll offer free replacement.


I'm not standing behind that warranty! Lol


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

HackWork said:


> We can't do that while you are here since you are not a professional. This is an electrician forum and you are far from it.
> 
> While someone with knowledge of a particular product might be beneficial to the forum, you have proven yourself to be nothing but a biased shill. Your motives are clear and your information cannot be trusted. Your posts are nothing more than annoying spam.


Right? I haven't even read any of his posts except glossing over a couple. I know it is going to be "LEDs suck even though they are the wave of the future and are what customers want" and "I'm going to write out long winded posts about lighting a basement with T5s to mimic blah blah blah"

ITS A GOD DAMNED BASEMENT IN A HOUSE, OWNED BY AN ELECTRICIAN!

Personally, I slap some t8 strips down there and call it good. You could do plastic keyless with CFLs too, but depending on your ceiling height it could take a lot of them. I would probably scavenge some t8 troffers off the next job you do where you are ripping them out, and screw those to the bottoms of the floor joists and that way it is free. I'd also do 3500K lamps, because 5000s are just sterile looking

Don't forget the pool table pendant with the beer company logo on the sides!


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## Electric_Light (Apr 6, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> ITS A GOD DAMNED BASEMENT IN A HOUSE, OWNED BY AN ELECTRICIAN!
> 
> *Personally, I slap some t8 strips down there and call it good.*


Agreed. High cost aesthetic designer lights are unjustifiable for a basement.


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