# Running wires across joists



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

WronGun said:


> Finishing a basement , a couple wires I ran across joists on the bottom going perpendicular to the joist. There is a drop ceiling being installed. Inspector told homeowner I can't run wires like that without runners ? He signed off regardless , but what does this mean , never hear of this and I've seen wires ran this way for 13 yrs
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Smaller than #6 has to be run along the sides of joist or beams, or the joist drilled. But for exposed wiring. If a drop ceiling is getting installed, that should make it a null and void cause the wiring is no longer exposed.


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## Navyguy (Mar 15, 2010)

In Canada we have rule 12-514(b) that allows the installation of wires on the lower faces of joists if suitably protected. What our code is not clear on is "how close" does it need to be to the mechanical protection (such as a running board) before it is not mechanically protected any longer.

Appears to be a bit of a judgement call.

Cheers

John


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> Smaller than #6 has to be run along the sides of joist or beams, or the joist drilled. But for exposed wiring. If a drop ceiling is getting installed, that should make it a null and void cause the wiring is no longer exposed.




Exactly , I wasn't there but he told the home owner this ... " we can't have people hanging things from wire " ?!?! What is this guy smoking ? A drop ceiling is being installed and this he was well aware of 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> Exactly , I wasn't there but he told the home owner this ... " we can't have people hanging things from wire " ?!?! What is this guy smoking ? A drop ceiling is being installed and this he was well aware of
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Always ask which article your installation violated. That alone would have proved him wrong and your installation correct.




> 334.15 *Exposed Work*
> 
> (C) *In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces*. Where
> cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements
> ...


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh I will be , calling him at 3pm tomorrow 


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Always ask which article your installation violated. That alone would have proved him wrong and your installation correct.


He will quote the code for the open installation in exposed work , and then tell you "You never know when somebody may take out the ceiling'' which of course is like about as intelligent as a 360max post.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I added the code to my post.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

HackWork said:


> I added the code to my post.




I see .. the drop ceiling would deem this "not exposed" I would think.... 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

WronGun said:


> I see .. the drop ceiling would deem this "not exposed" I would think....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's one.
The second part is that the drop ceiling and walls make it a finished basement. 

The inspector has 2 strikes against him, tell him that I said so.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

WronGun said:


> Finishing a basement , a couple wires I ran across joists on the bottom going perpendicular to the joist. There is a drop ceiling *being installed*. Inspector told homeowner I can't run wires like that without runners ? He signed off regardless , but what does this mean , never hear of this and I've seen wires ran this way for 13 yrs
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like your code is the same as ours here.

**edit** re-read the posts, ... Ours allows running boards across joists in unfinished basements, as protection ... sounds like NEC doesn't !

If your drop ceiling was already installed, then a non issue.

If the cables were exposed when he inspected ... well, he could have failed you ! 

He signed off cause he took your word that you will put in the dropped ceiling ... Why are you upset with him :blink:


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

I'm not upset I'm just trying to understand .... sometimes inspectors spit stuff out to homeowners that makes it seem like we don't know what we're doing and the homeowner gets worried or paranoid 


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

They are just playing it forward. They got treated to the same sick demented stuff when they strapped on the tools.......


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That's one.
> The second part is that the drop ceiling and walls make it a finished basement.
> 
> The inspector has 2 strikes against him, tell him that I said so.


Two strikes and no balls... that is.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

emtnut said:


> Sounds like your code is the same as ours here.
> 
> **edit** re-read the posts, ... Ours allows running boards across joists in unfinished basements, as protection ... sounds like NEC doesn't !
> 
> ...


Stop trying out to figure Canucks.

Especially in January.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

telsa said:


> Stop trying out to figure Canucks.
> 
> Especially in January.


I can't figure out Canucks in ANY month ... and I am one ! :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I thought they changed something about romex above a residential drop ceiling a few years ago.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The 2005 Code revised article 334.12 (A)(2) to clarify that romex above a drop ceiling is allowed in one and two family dwellings only.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

emtnut said:


> Sounds like your code is the same as ours here.
> 
> **edit** re-read the posts, ... Ours allows running boards across joists in unfinished basements, as protection ... sounds like NEC doesn't !


Running boards were something done in attic spaces here when I was a young guy, haven't seen it done since back then.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Running boards were something done in attic spaces here when I was a young guy, haven't seen it done since back then.


I do it for every cable I run closer than 6 ft from the scuttle hole. Like the light in the hallway 3 feet from that hole , sometimes the truss run the wrong way to go all the way around so you have to cut across the top of the truss cord. I look around the jobsite and grab some scrap and go to it.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> I do it for every cable I run closer than 6 ft from the scuttle hole. Like the light in the hallway 3 feet from that hole , sometimes the truss run the wrong way to go all the way around so you have to cut across the top of the truss cord. I look around the jobsite and grab some scrap and go to it.


Been a long while since I've seen it done but then again I haven't done much resi. I'm no romex roper.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It's easier to drill and pull anyway.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You can use running boards here. It's ugly though.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You can use running boards here. It's ugly though.


Kellyanne Conway ugly. Oops  .

I was just trolling. Everybody can settle down.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Kellyanne Conway ugly. Oops  .
> 
> I was just trolling. Everybody can settle down.


You should enter your apology now.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

MechanicalDVR said:


> You should enter your apology now.


Sorry :laughing:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> It's easier to drill and pull anyway.


Yep, or if that's not easy, sleeve it in some PVC - I think the PVC is much better protection anyway. I'd only make running boards if wood was available and PVC was not.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

We always drill and pull. It just seems like the right way to do it. Never really understood the running board idea other than you can't hang clothes on it. Which I have never really seen hurt a wire yet. Well maybe the old cloth covered ****.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

sbrn33 said:


> We always drill and pull. It just seems like the right way to do it. Never really understood the running board idea other than you can't hang clothes on it. Which I have never really seen hurt a wire yet. Well maybe the old cloth covered ****.


I always look at the future. If someone wants to yank down the T bar and put in drywall, they have a mess to take care of. They're not going to call back the electrician who created the mess to begin with.

I agree, it just seems right.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I always look at the future. If someone wants to yank down the T bar and put in drywall, they have a mess to take care of. They're not going to call back the electrician who created the mess to begin with.
> 
> I agree, it just seems right.


 I don't see where he said that he drills when a drop ceiling is being installed. I take it as him saying he drills instead of using running boards.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't see where he said that he drills when a drop ceiling is being installed. I take it as him saying he drills instead of using running boards.


Maybe. If that's the case, I just stated why I would drill and pull above T bar. No biggie.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Maybe. If that's the case, I just stated why I would drill and pull above T bar. No biggie.


Yeah, I would do that too, right after I roughed the rest of the house with rigid.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, I would do that too, right after I roughed the rest of the house with rigid.


I would have it drilled and pulled while you're still sorting staples in your Homer tray.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Yeah, I would do that too, right after I roughed the rest of the house with rigid.


I thought you were traveling.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

99cents said:


> Sorry :laughing:


Awesome! :thumbup:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Chances are that if you're in a situation where wire is run on the bottom of joists and a drop ceiling is being installed, there's plumbing and gas lines on the bottom of the joists too. Any future remodel to install a hard ceiling is going to be done by framing down anyway, so trying to guess what someone will do 20 years down the road is pointless. If someone tells me that they are hanging a ceiling and wants me to wire the place, well the code says I can run the wire on the bottom of the joists, that's the quickest way to get paid.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> Chances are that if you're in a situation where wire is run on the bottom of joists and a drop ceiling is being installed, there's plumbing and gas lines on the bottom of the joists too. Any future remodel to install a hard ceiling is going to be done by framing down anyway, so trying to guess what someone will do 20 years down the road is pointless. If someone tells me that they are hanging a ceiling and wants me to wire the place, well the code says I can run the wire on the bottom of the joists, that's the quickest way to get paid.


Yup saves a lot of drilling.:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Agreed. I think $.99 is just trolling again, he can't be that far off from reality.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> I thought you were traveling.


 I am on the road and I don't have my iPad so it's harder to post through the iPhone.

Today I have two guys doing a service change while I go do estimates and pick up permits and other stupid stuff like that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I always look at the future. If someone wants to yank down the T bar and put in drywall, they have a mess to take care of. They're not going to call back the electrician who created the mess to begin.


 So I'm just trying to understand this. The customer has an electrician do the work to finish their basement. The customer is happy with the work. 

Then in a decade or two they decide to completely change the basement around, you are seriously trying to say that they wouldn't hire the same electrician because some of the wires might have to be moved? The same wires that were installed perfectly and correctly for the first renovation job?


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## daveEM (Nov 18, 2012)

Yeah I drill.

First thing I did when I bought my house was rip out that POS drop ceiling. I don't know, I guess office guys like that stuff.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

daveEM said:


> Yeah I drill.
> 
> First thing I did when I bought my house was rip out that POS drop ceiling. I don't know, I guess office guys like that stuff.


 A hard ceiling is always nicer, but it really limits the access. I've had a lot of situations in which customers changed their mind and didn't have things installed because the extra expense and headache of having to make holes in the basement ceiling and snake wires through.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

If you're adding one or two, who cares. If its new construction or a big job, this thing looks nice, but I never used it. 










http://www.aimedia.co/media/catalog-pages/C-1.pdf


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So I'm just trying to understand this. The customer has an electrician do the work to finish their basement. The customer is happy with the work.
> 
> Then in a decade or two they decide to completely change the basement around, you are seriously trying to say that they wouldn't hire the same electrician because some of the wires might have to be moved? The same wires that were installed perfectly and correctly for the first renovation job?


Jeebus, Hack. First of all, unless there are major obstructions, it's faster to drill and pull. It's neater and more professional anyway. Second, if they want to drywall later on, they can (plumber's pipe below the joists is not my concern). Third, and this is the most important point: I would tell the customer I am drilling and pulling in case they ever want to install drywall. Doing things with the future in mind is a huge goodwill thing with customers. It separates me from the splash and dash guys. It often results in nice little change orders. I'm in the renovation game. Do you know how many times I hear, "Why didn't they think of that when they built the place?".


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Jeebus, Hack. First of all, unless there are major obstructions, it's faster to drill and pull. It's neater and more professional anyway. Second, if they want to drywall later on, they can (plumber's pipe below the joists is not my concern). Third, and this is the most important point: I would tell the customer I am drilling and pulling in case they ever want to install drywall. Doing things with the future in mind is a huge goodwill thing with customers. It separates me from the splash and dash guys. It often results in nice little change orders. I'm in the renovation game. Do you know how many times I hear, "Why didn't they think of that when they built the place?".


Hi.

It's definitely not faster to drill than to staple to the bottom, so you need to put down the crack pipe. Plus, I would rather not make unnecessary holes in the joists. Do you know the code for drilling joists, where you can drill, how large and how often?

Second, I don't see doing unnecessary work as being more professional. In many situations I see it as being less professional when you are throwing the customers money away in added labor and making unnecessary holes. 

If the customers wants a drywall ceiling, they will most likely frame it lower due to the other obstructions, as someone explained earlier.

You said that a homeowner isn't going to call an electrician back if they put the wires under the joist and they decide to renovate the basement in the future. I think that is very, very silly.

As far as "goodwill" with the customer, while I agree that can work in some situations, it's not going to do anything in this one. When a homeowner is finishing their basement, the last thing they think about is an hour or two that the electrician might save in 20 years when they renovate the basement again. 

Plus, customers aren't always as stupid as you make them out to be. While you point to your wires thru the joists saying how great it is because they aren't underneath it, the customer will see the water pipes, drain pipes, gas pipes heating pipes, ductwork, and everything else ran under the joists.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Hi.

Each to his own.

Big pipes and ductwork are framed out in bulkheads. You don't do much of this, do you? 

If you can't drill and pull faster you must not be very good with power tools. All those nice, shiny Milwaukee tools lying on the floor while you're banging away with a hammer.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is really beginning to look like the wiener dog trying to keep up with the alpha.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Hi.
> 
> Each to his own.
> 
> Big pipes and ductwork are framed out in bulkheads. You don't do much of this, do you?


 Sometimes the pipe and ductwork is over to the side and could be put into soffits, but wiring would often be run in those same areas and be inside of the soffit. As far as how much of this I do, if you want to have a **** measuring contest I assure you that you will come up short, tiny.



> If you can't drill and pull faster you must not be very good with power tools. All those nice, shiny Milwaukee tools lying on the floor while you're banging away with a hammer.


Like I said earlier, you must be trolling. You keep ruining threads with your asinine crap. 

Tell us more about how a homeowner will never call an electrician back if they put wires under the joists. :laughing:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

splatz said:


> If you're adding one or two, who cares. If its new construction or a big job, this thing looks nice, but I never used it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of my guys wanted me to get this. I let him know that it comes in rainbow colors if he wants that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> One of my guys wanted me to get this. I let him know that it comes in rainbow colors if he wants that.


Does it come with a matching purse for 99cents?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Does it come with a matching purse for 99cents?


I am a driller and you are traveling. Wanna meet up?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Does it come with a matching purse for 99cents?


Score: 99 - 4, Hack - 1.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Score: 99 - 4, Hack - 1.


You keep telling yourself that. I see chicken steve's delusions of grandeur have rubbed off on you.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> Tell us more about how a homeowner will never call an electrician back if they put wires under the joists. :laughing:


Why, were you asleep the first time I told you?

I really don't know how much longer I can give you advice if you don't pay attention. Talking to you is like sucking a nipple through a parka.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I really don't know how much longer I can give you advice if you don't pay attention. Talking to you is like sucking a nipple through a parka.


You have edited every post in this thread to add crap after I saw it. :blink:



99cents said:


> This is really beginning to look like the wiener dog trying to keep up with the alpha.


So cutting your teeth stocking shelves in Home Depot where you hook up with 1 builder who uses you as a low rent installer is what you consider an "alpha" electrician, huh? :laughing: Keep digging buddy.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> You have edited every post in this thread to add crap after I saw it. :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> So cutting your teeth stocking shelves in Home Depot where you hook up with 1 builder who uses you as a low rent installer is what you consider an "alpha" electrician, huh? :laughing: Keep digging buddy.


I'm going to a site visit now, Hack. Have a good day. Just one more thing: It's downtown. Should I take my sequined man purse? I know I can't go wrong with basic black. How is a guy to decide?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't know, what matches your minivan best?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This is great. I may stay home today just for this.


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## WronGun (Oct 18, 2013)

Well he wants me to put up strapping , because it's a drop ceiling ! I didn't want to question or give him a hard time because I still need a finish inspection and do lots of work in that town ...... whatever 

Personally I don't mind drilling , but I did the bottom stapling all in 1 line where I have a couple 14/2's , a 14/3, and (2) 12/3's all neatly going across in one spot.. I really didn't want to put a big A55 hole in all the major joists supporting the home , or I would've drilled about 60 smaller holes for all the wires..... this was by far faster and simpler , and being covered up regardless .... 

Inspectors reasoning was someone could take a tile out and hang something on the wire ? Like what a plant [emoji271] lol

I had a staple on every single joist being passed 


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I would say "**** this idiot!". But you gotta pick your battles.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I don't know, what matches your minivan best?


I dunno but, when I heard the price they were expecting, I should have worn my Carhaarts with the trap door in the back :001_huh: .


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I dunno but, when I heard the price they were expecting, I should have worn my Carhaarts with the trap door in the back :001_huh: .


I'm not going to talk to you until I get an apology via private message.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

What's an A55 hole? I googled it and it was nasty :huh: .


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> I'm not going to talk to you until I get an apology via private message.


So you won't talk to me until I apologize?

Think about what you just said and I'll get back to you on that  .


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm lazy. I hate to work. But I do like money. So whatever method gets me the most money with the least amount of effort is the right one.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> I'm lazy. I hate to work. But I do like money. So whatever method gets me the most money with the least amount of effort is the right one.


It's all about the profit.


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