# I know You Guys Love New Codes sooooooo



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I’m not sure who would think this is a good idea on here. Looks to be yet another so called safety reach to sell some more equipment.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

460 Delta said:


> I’m not sure who would think this is a good idea on here. Looks to be yet another so called safety reach to sell some more equipment.


I've waffled both ways on it. Sometimes it would be nice to turn off and isolate a panel without pulling the meter. But then again, pulling the meter is super effective too.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

The wording can be misleading. Are they saying that all 3 are required, or, only one, but, which one? Pick one? Not required in multi-family dwellings?


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

CoolWill said:


> I've waffled both ways on it. Sometimes it would be nice to turn off and isolate a panel without pulling the meter. But then again, pulling the meter is super effective too.


Pulling the meters does work, but where I am about half the time it's a meter owned by one of the co-ops around here that absolutely do not let you in the meter. The upside to that is that they are very responsive when you call and don't charge for a disconnect/reconnect.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

CoolWill said:


> I've waffled both ways on it. Sometimes it would be nice to turn off and isolate a panel without pulling the meter. But then again, pulling the meter is super effective too.


Our poco lets us pull meters so this new NEC rule is worthless.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

The price of meter mains will totally drop now that this is in the code. :no::no:


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## DashDingo (Feb 11, 2018)

I think it’s more for fire fighters than anything 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

DashDingo said:


> I think it’s more for fire fighters than anything


I can only think a lot of these "new codes" are more for doing something for the sake of doing something at the cmp meetings.



I can see the code making panel now: "The code book is already written. What can we talk about now at these code making panel meetings? I know....we can start covering issues that might only represent .001% of real world issues involving fire safety through electrical installations. 



For example, I'd like to know how many fires were prevented through the use of handle ties on multiwire branch circuits?????


At some point they are just going to have to admit the NEC is now a design manual and not just a safety guideline for electrical installations to prevent fires.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I think this new code is for the kids who want to play games on people. They can now go around and shut peoples houses off.

I take it that this does not have to be the over current protective device but only a non fused service rated switch or molded case switch?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> I think this new code is for the kids who want to play games on people. They can now go around and shut peoples houses off.


That will prove to be damaging, dangerous and the reason this particular code gets rescinded.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

DashDingo said:


> I think it’s more for fire fighters than anything
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wonder if a smart meter has a hand held remote for fire fighters. I know they can remotely shut them down so that wouldn't be a bad option then skip the code for anyone with a smart meter.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

In Calif we have to have a main breaker at the meter, main reason being the fire dept. I think they are just going to start having the rest of the states do the same.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Forge Boyz said:


> Pulling the meters does work, but where I am about half the time it's a meter owned by one of the co-ops around here that absolutely do not let you in the meter. The upside to that is that they are very responsive when you call and don't charge for a disconnect/reconnect.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


In an emergency, they can suck it.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

DashDingo said:


> I think it’s more for fire fighters than anything
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are there a lot of fire fighters being hurt by this? I haven't heard anything like that.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Cow said:


> At some point they are just going to have to admit the NEC is now a design manual and not just a safety guideline for electrical installations to prevent fires.


True statement of the week here fellas.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

kb1jb1 said:


> I think this new code is for the kids who want to play games on people. They can now go around and shut peoples houses off.
> 
> I take it that this does not have to be the over current protective device but only a non fused service rated switch or molded case switch?


I'll say it one time again. Outdoor meter/mains is all we have on residential here. In all these fifty years living here I never once heard or have any experience of somebody shutting down somebody else's house as a prank. It just don't happen.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

DashDingo said:


> I think it’s more for fire fighters than anything
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


exactly what it is there for


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

MTW said:


> Our poco lets us pull meters so this new NEC rule is worthless.


That works unless you have a ct setup. I guess large homes-- pulling the meter also leaves hot parts exposed


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

We have done this exact thread before on this topic. What we came up with it this:

A couple people think it's a good idea because they already have the requirement.

A couple people think it's a good idea for "safety" because it will help keep firemen safe, but none of those people can cite a single piece of evidence saying that a fireman was hurt in a situation in which he wanted to shut the power down but couldn't do it. There was one article linked to saying that a fireman was shocked, but no where did it say that they would have shut the power down if there was a disconnect. 

Then there was the rest of us who know the truth, this code is implemented for 2 reasons:

1) The *B*ILLIONS of dollars that it will make manufacturers.
2) Because the CMP is bored and looks for nonsense to add to justify their positions as Cow explained above.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That works unless you have a ct setup.


 Most times CT setups also have a disconnect right next to them. If this was an issue, the code could require discos when using CTs instead of requiring them EVERYWHERE. 


> pulling the meter also leaves hot parts exposed


 So what? This is the type of crazy talk that the CMP uses. If there is an active fire and the fire department have to pull the meter, no one should be anywhere near the house, and there is FAR more danger everywhere than that tiny little 6" circle left open in the meter base.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> 1) The *B*ILLIONS of dollars that it will make manufacturers.
> 2) Because the CMP is bored and looks for nonsense to add to justify their positions as Cow explained above.


Codes and standards like the NEC, once it is fairly complete, fleshed out, mature - reached this point decades ago - it should expand very little year to year. But that's not what happens, because there's a group of bureaucrats that want their role to grow and grow, and they are unchecked - they don't really answer to anyone, there's no real standard to which they are held. 

So you have constant changes that are really just arbitrary wheel spinning stuff, costs consumers with no real benefit, which erodes the respect people have for the code. 

At the same time, the hard stuff - scores of sections of the code that are just horribly unclear, needlessly convoluted, etc. - that stuff stays year after year, because cleaning it up would be hard, and again, nobody is held to any standard.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Hax our ct cabinets don't have discos next to them-- if it did then it is not an issue and you wouldn't need another exterior disconnect.

I was a volunteer firefighter and there is lots going on-- a metal object held by someone could make contact with the exposed part but I agree this is generally not an issue.

Quite frankly I am surprised this change didn't happen sooner as many areas of the country already have amendments for exterior disconnects. We generally have them here and I like having an exterior box so I can add things later. I am not really upset with this change but I am not sure it was a necessary move.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I was a volunteer firefighter and there is lots going on-- a metal object held by someone could make contact with the exposed part but I agree this is generally not an issue.


 Correction: it's *never* an issue. Not unless you can show instances of it occurring. 

In order to make code changes, there should be solid substantiation. Hundreds of injuries, thousands. But you can't show even 1. The danger is all just made up in people's heads.


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## zac (May 11, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> I'll say it one time again. Outdoor meter/mains is all we have on residential here. In all these fifty years living here I never once heard or have any experience of somebody shutting down somebody else's house as a prank. It just don't happen.


Same here in California. I can tell if a customer I have is from the east coast...
They usually have a lock on the panel cover. They can't get over the fact that the breakers are outside and can be reached by the public. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

I'd have a lock on it.
Burglars will want to open the disco.
Cops.
Kids.
etc...

Fire Dept can get that lock off if necessary. 

I can't speak for today, but 30 years ago FD would never pull a meter around here. They call POCO who has response time not much different than FD. FPL is an awesome POCO.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

splatz said:


> Codes and standards like the NEC, once it is fairly complete, fleshed out, mature - reached this point decades ago - it should expand very little year to year. But that's not what happens, because there's a group of bureaucrats that want their role to grow and grow, and they are unchecked - they don't really answer to anyone, there's no real standard to which they are held.
> 
> So you have constant changes that are really just arbitrary wheel spinning stuff, costs consumers with no real benefit, which erodes the respect people have for the code.
> 
> At the same time, the hard stuff - scores of sections of the code that are just horribly unclear, needlessly convoluted, etc. - that stuff stays year after year, because cleaning it up would be hard, and again, nobody is held to any standard.


This is it. You have an entity that must justify its existence. Once something makes money, someone will try to continue it. It's like this toll roads that were going to become free once the cost of construction was recovered... Sure. La Leche League spent decades fighting for the rights of women to breastfeed. Well now that that has happened pretty much everywhere, what did they do? Did they say, "Welp... Our journey is over. It's been a blast girls. Time to close up shop..."? No way. They said, "Holy chit! We're about to be out of a job. Quick, someone think of something!" Now they are fighting for the rights of trans women to breastfeed, whatever that means.:vs_laugh:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

We can’t pull meters here so I really like this idea. As far as I’m concerned, the combination load centre is a dumb idea. I have to phone the utility to swap out panels. In the summer when they’re busy, that can mean a wait of four weeks or more.

It’s a huge waste of time and money for the utility to send two men in a truck out twice in a day to do a disconnect/reconnect.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> We can’t pull meters here so I really like this idea. As far as I’m concerned, the combination load centre is a dumb idea. I have to phone the utility to swap out panels. In the summer when they’re busy, that can mean a wait of four weeks or more.
> 
> It’s a huge waste of time and money for the utility to send two men in a truck out twice in a day to do a disconnect/reconnect.


So when you change a panel you are OK pulling the meter out to kill the power while wearing your corduroys and Members Only jacket. But in the case of a real emergency, a firefighter shouldn’t pull the meter out wearing full PPE?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

This new code is BS!

When this goes into effect we will probably be installing meter-mains which usually come with a couple of circuits and is a big box to put outside of a house and much heavier than just a meter socket. 

We will need to run 4 wires instead of 3 to a subpanel and I can get 3 wire 4/0 aluminum in a 2" LB but not 3 wire. Will probably need 3" LBs.

All that on the outside of houses will look ridiculous. 

Then the extra work of installing the subpanel with isolated grounding bars etc.

Yeah, I know, the comments, "hey look at all the extra work and money we will be making," and that only goes so far until people get fed up with it all.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> So when you change a panel you are OK pulling the meter out to kill the power while wearing your corduroys and Members Only jacket. But in the case of a real emergency, a firefighter shouldn’t pull the meter out wearing full PPE?


No, I can’t pull the meter.

Besides that, a disconnect is a safer and more efficient way of disconnecting power than pulling a meter. I have no issues with this at all.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

99cents said:


> No, I can’t pull the meter.
> 
> Besides that, a disconnect is a safer and more efficient way of disconnecting power than pulling a meter. I have no issues with this at all.


But GFCIs on kitchen counter tops is a nanny code?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> No, I can’t pull the meter.
> 
> Besides that, a disconnect is a safer and more efficient way of disconnecting power than pulling a meter. I have no issues with this at all.


There is no reason to put a safer way of disconnecting power on every residence in our country. Shutting the power down is something that may be required on average every 50 or so years, and the power company can do it easily.

Do they put in unions or quick disconnects for water heaters that need to be changed every 10 years? When installing a furnace, do they install it in a way that makes it easier to install a new one in 25 years?


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## FishinElectrcian (Jul 18, 2019)

Yeah we can't pull meters in BC legally either, exceptions made for emergency/ safety situations and working in a live meter got a guy a $10000 fine recently. Where I am is small rural so we do a lot of power poles and I have been using the meterbase/breaker combo for quite a while just to save on hydro fees later. $600 for a drop and reconnect so if you need one call back with hydro it pays for the increase in cost.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

CoolWill said:


> But GFCIs on kitchen counter tops is a nanny code?


You don’t listen too good.

I like this because I can do a panel swap without involving the utility. I guess you missed the part where I said a disconnect/reconnect sometimes has to be booked a month in advance.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> You don’t listen too good.
> 
> I like this because I can do a panel swap without involving the utility. I guess you missed the part where I said a disconnect/reconnect sometimes has to be booked a month in advance.


This makes absolutely no sense.

A house built today that you would install the outside disconnect on will not need a panel swap for 50-80 years.

An old house with a 70 year old panel that needs to be swapped does not need an outside disconnect installed when swapping the panel because the next time you need to swap the panel out with be in another 50-80 years.

We don't perform installations in order to make upgrades in 5-8 decades a tiny little bit easier. 

So requiring an outside disconnect in the 2020 code will not benefit you at all, you will be dead and buried.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> This makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> A house built today that you would install the outside disconnect on will not need a panel swap for 50-80 years.
> 
> ...


I don’t care, I still like the idea.

I often make notes on a job for the next guy. It’s not all about me.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> I don’t care, I still like the idea.


 And that's the whole point. You "just like it", you "don't care" if it makes any sense. That is how the entire CMP works as well. Doing things for the feels...



> I often make notes on a job for the next guy. It’s not all about me.


 You're the man now dog.

There is no reason to do anything to help the next person change out a panel in 60 years. This is silly talk and you know it.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

This is fun riling you guys up. I'll have to find more codes that you will love. LOL


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is fun riling you guys up. I'll have to find more codes that you will love. LOL


I demand that you get a 1 week ban for trolling. Can you ban yourself since no one else does anything around here? Thanks buddy :smile:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is fun riling you guys up. I'll have to find more codes that you will love. LOL


Have at it!


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Another unnecessary rule trying to use life safety to sell products and make manufactures more money
If that doesn't upset you then you are a freaking dummy, naïve or just foolishly apathetic.
Are fire fighters such idiots that they can cut a lock off a lock and pull a switch down put cant pull a meter in an emergency?
I THINK NOT


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

Dennis Alwon said:


> This is fun riling you guys up. I'll have to find more codes that you will love. LOL


The mod is trolling us. :sad:


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

macmikeman said:


> I'll say it one time again. Outdoor meter/mains is all we have on residential here. In all these fifty years living here I never once heard or have any experience of somebody shutting down somebody else's house as a prank. It just don't happen.


I have a commercial customer that has four meters with disconnects mounted outside. Several years back somebody came by and shut the switches off. This happened several times so he put small locks on the plastic covers. No problems since which tells me it is kids playing around and not a competitor's sabotage.


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## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

There is a Fire Chief who made this his life's mission, I can't remember his name. I heard his name in a meeting last week.

But like a lot of firemen, they butt into things they nothing about. But they have a lot of clout as they are "heroes" even though they do not have a particularly dangerous job. 

This provision doesn't provide any measurable degree of added safety, just additional cost. 

Majority of time the POCO cuts the service on request from the Fire Dept. so whats the point?


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## anthonysolino (Dec 10, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Some of you might actually think this is a good idea.


I like the idea especially for first responders in the event of a fire, seems to help with time spend on awaiting the utility, I think if you can provide a means of disconnect it would help greatly, i'm even a fan of meter disconnects, you can do any electrical work on the home, panel change and whole service changes


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

460 Delta said:


> The mod is trolling us. :sad:


When Hax is mod, this will happen often. :vs_laugh:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

99cents said:


> We can’t pull meters here so I really like this idea. As far as I’m concerned, the combination load centre is a dumb idea. I have to phone the utility to swap out panels. In the summer when they’re busy, that can mean a wait of four weeks or more.
> 
> *It’s a huge waste of time and money for the utility to send two men in a truck out twice in a day to do a disconnect/reconnect*.


That is what happens here, utility cuts the power, you have to get your panel replaced before 1:00pm so you can get a city inspection, and the utility to be notified that the meter is released, and re-energize


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

anthonysolino said:


> I like the idea especially for first responders in the event of a fire, seems to help with time spend on awaiting the utility, I think if you can provide a means of disconnect it would help greatly, i'm even a fan of meter disconnects, you can do any electrical work on the home, panel change and whole service changes


The problem is that you just invented all of this in your head. You literally pulled it out of thin air. You said things like “seems to help with time“ yet you have absolutely nothing to substantiate that. It’s all a fantasy.

You cannot provide even one instance of an issue occurring because a firefighter wanted to shut down the power but couldn’t because there was no outside disconnect. 

If there was an issue with this, there would be thousands of reported incidences, tens of thousands. But there are none, not a single one.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> The problem is that you just invented all of this in your head. You literally pulled it out of thin air. You said things like “seems to help with time“ yet you have absolutely nothing to substantiate that. It’s all a fantasy.
> 
> You cannot provide even one instance of an issue occurring because a firefighter wanted to shut down the power but couldn’t because there was no outside disconnect.
> 
> If there was an issue with this, there would be thousands of reported incidences, tens of thousands. But there are none, not a single one.


I believe the code has less to do with fire safety and more to do with feelings and contrived situations than it did a generation ago. Why this is happening is anyone's guess.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

To tell the truth I am on the fence with this. It's more of a design point than an actual hazard but to be honest there's much more useless stuff in the code. 

I could see power companies wanting this A LOT if this gets them off the hook for an emergency response every time the fire company responds. Keep in mind probably half those responses are false alarms / BS. I don't know exactly how it works but can power company specs reach past the meter? I could see a power company just requiring combo meter-mains to make their life easy.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> To tell the truth I am on the fence with this. It's more of a design point than an actual hazard but to be honest there's much more useless stuff in the code.


 But other useless things are small. This change is huge and will cost billions of dollars and massive changes to the way things are done. 



> I could see power companies wanting this A LOT


 Again, imagined.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Power company's have been known to require things beyond their demarcation. They just say we will not hook the power up unless something is done. Even though they don't own the meter some power company's wont allow the grounding electrode conductor in the meter base. 

In SC many years ago I wired a temp pole for a friend. They set it and the power company turned it down because they wanted a galvanized riser. They said the sun would destroy the pvc in months.

The house was right on the beach but I think that was BS about the pvc being destroyed that quickly.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Power company's have been known to require things beyond their demarcation. They just say we will not hook the power up unless something is done. Even though they don't own the meter some power company's wont allow the grounding electrode conductor in the meter base.
> 
> In SC many years ago I wired a temp pole for a friend. They set it and the power company turned it down because they wanted a galvanized riser. They said the sun would destroy the pvc in months.
> 
> The house was right on the beach but I think that was BS about the pvc being destroyed that quickly.


IIRC some municipalities on the beach require PVC (for a service riser), because it's the only thing that will withstand the salt air.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

We do have at least one POCO here (COOP) that requires the disconnect or meter mains.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Eversource in CT requires lever bypass for all metering and 3" minimum conduit for underground services. Sometimes poco rules are way above the NEC.


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## electriceb (Dec 26, 2017)

Now the Fire department turns off the exterior disconnect and Boom the Generac starts up on the opposite side of the building.
Or the tesla power wall kicks on in the cellar and powers up the whole house.
This seems like a false sense of security now with all the alternate power sources going in residential now.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

electriceb said:


> Now the Fire department turns off the exterior disconnect and Boom the Generac starts up on the opposite side of the building.
> Or the tesla power wall kicks on in the cellar and powers up the whole house.
> This seems like a false sense of security now with all the alternate power sources going in residential now.


Alternative power sources have always required a disconnect outside. Here (Canada) if you have renewable energy, not only do you have to have a disconnect, you also have to have signs and line diagrams at your meter showing where the disconnects are located.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

So how long before a company like Milbank comes out with a cold sequence disconnect/meter combo. If that wasn’t the real reason for the code change, sell more products....

That type of combo seems like a winner. The disconnect wouldn’t be considered the service disconnect, no overcurrent protection. It could be made about the same size as a regular meter socket. It wouldn’t require rework of the GEC on service changes. Easily accessible to firemen and kids. Sounds like a win for everyone. 

The first company I worked for was a father and two sons. The two sons were complete opposites. The one son pulled the meter on a bar after being flagged. He was barred after that. Luckily there were many local watering holes back then. They’re all gone now. All major chains now. Applebee’s and such.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

How about automatic disconnect with the second networked smoke alarm tripped, as in commercial systems?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

cuba_pete said:


> How about automatic disconnect with the second networked smoke alarm tripped, as in commercial systems?


That sounds horrible. Not only is it more expensive, but it serves no purpose and would be detrimental instead. The last thing I would want is to fall down the stairs in the dark and break something while there is a possible fire. I keep my fire extinguisher in a central closet. I would hate to have my house burn down because I had a fire on the stove and I couldn't find that closet in the dark because the power got automatically shut down.

Power being on is not an issue. There is no need to disconnect the power. If the fire fighters find that they have that need, they know how to do it.


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

While I like the idea in reality it is a solution looking for a problem.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

This rule makes no sense in big cities with zero clearance lots/buildings where every service is underground, you know like that tiny place called New York City. I'm sure there will be exceptions made for those situations.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The last thing I would want is to fall down the stairs in the dark and break something while there is a possible fire.


Whaaat? You don't have emergency lighting in your home, with lighted exit signs in every room? Glowing strips in the floor to indicate the nearest exit?

Wow...I guess I'm living in 3019!


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

Hey Hax, is this what you do when pulling a meter


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Max C. said:


> Hey Hax, is this what you do when pulling a meter
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT7cVXuhwL0


He used to be an ET member.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

MTW said:


> He used to be an ET member.



Was that Magnettica (or close to that)?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Yep............


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

I watched the video and was left with more questions than answers. What exactly was the reason to cut off the mast with a foot or so left then couple on a new joint? The service drop wasn't raised nor was the service size seemingly increased. I figure the resi guys will be able to fill me in here.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> I watched the video and was left with more questions than answers. What exactly was the reason to cut off the mast with a foot or so left then couple on a new joint? The service drop wasn't raised nor was the service size seemingly increased. I figure the resi guys will be able to fill me in here.


The riser was damaged, most likely a branch from that big tree out front fell on the overhead line and pulled out the POA and bend the riser. So he was there to replace just the riser, not upgrade the service or anything.

I do not know why he left 1 foot of the riser there, I would have replaced the entire thing- new meter hub, connector, and full riser. 

But I also don't know why he used copper conductors, that is literally throwing profit down the drain, it makes no sense to use. The existing riser had aluminum and the service entrance into the house is aluminum as well.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> The riser was damaged, most likely a branch from that big tree out front fell on the overhead line and pulled out the POA and bend the riser. So he was there to replace just the riser, not upgrade the service or anything.
> 
> I do not know why he left 1 foot of the riser there, I would have replaced the entire thing- new meter hub, connector, and full riser.
> 
> But I also don't know why he used copper conductors, that is literally throwing profit down the drain, it makes no sense to use. The existing riser had aluminum and the service entrance into the house is aluminum as well.


The old conduit connected to the new just looks like a quick and dirty job. I would have used all new conduit and a new box connector and threaded it into the old hub myself. It looked like he was using copper but it wasn't that clear in the video. As an industrial guy I use copper wire exclusively so I wouldn't give that a second thought. If the customer was willing to pay the extra for copper as an up-sell, then good for him. 
If as a contractor you are looking for ways to profit more by up-selling goods and services to clients, wouldn't a copper wire premium upgrade from standard aluminum be a way to accomplish that? I think some people if given the option would pay more for a all copper install.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> The old conduit connected to the new just looks like a quick and dirty job. I would have used all new conduit and a new box connector and threaded it into the old hub myself.


 Often times the original installer either used silicone or PVC cement when threading the PVC male adapter into the meter hub, which could make it anywhere from hard to impossible to remove. That is why I always just change the meter hub as well.



> It looked like he was using copper but it wasn't that clear in the video. As an industrial guy I use copper wire exclusively so I wouldn't give that a second thought. If the customer was willing to pay the extra for copper as an up-sell, then good for him.
> If as a contractor you are looking for ways to profit more by up-selling goods and services to clients, wouldn't a copper wire premium upgrade from standard aluminum be a way to accomplish that? I think some people if given the option would pay more for a all copper install.


 The customer doesn't know anything about it, they are listening to what you tell them. If he was able to upsell to a higher price, then he should have done so with aluminum, and pocketed all of that extra profit instead of paying for copper. I am not sure if he actually upsold them on copper, or just installed it because he believes the hype. But either way, if he got $1,500 for the job with copper, then he should have been able to get $1,500 for the job with aluminum, and made that extra money himself instead of giving it to the manufacturer and supply house. 

The grid is aluminum and steel. So is the overhead line, and the service entrance conductors. So there is absolutely no advantage in using copper for that 12 foot piece in the middle of all that aluminum.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

And then attaching copper wire to a panel with aluminum lugs and an aluminum bus. :laughing:

I agree 100%, using copper for services and feeders is a total waste. That includes commercial.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MTW said:


> And then attaching copper wire to a panel with aluminum lugs and an aluminum bus. :laughing:
> 
> I agree 100%, using copper for services and feeders is a total waste. That includes commercial.


You and Hax in total agreement for once, one for the records


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> You and Hax in total agreement for once, one for the records


We agree quite a bit.

But you have to admit, this is silly.

Now if this were a commercial job and the customer was discerning and you gave them 2 prices, one copper and one aluminum, then it would make sense. The customer would be knowledgeable of it and have their reasons for wanting copper.

But in a residential repair that has existing aluminum on both sides? Come on now...


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> You and Hax in total agreement for once, one for the records


Mark it down, because it won't happen for a long time again.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Mark it down, because it won't happen for a long time again.


Shush, you.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

We were doing a one year project in the town he lives in now. It was right when he moved down this way. After super storm Sandy. I thought I might have seen him around, but I never did. 

On an unrelated residential note. A guy I used to work with always ran the neutral straight through the meter socket uncut to the panel. Then put on the Lay-in lugs in the meter. He always said there was no chance of loosing the neutral in the meter this way. I don’t think I’ve ever done it his way. I think I’ve only seen the neutral lost in the meter once. It was aluminum wire in a condo meter stack just on the other side of the sea wall in Sea Bright. The town floods on every full moon tide. It’s probably the only place not to use Aluminum.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HertzHound said:


> On an unrelated residential note. A guy I used to work with always ran the neutral straight through the meter socket uncut to the panel. Then put on the Lay-in lugs in the meter. He always said there was no chance of loosing the neutral in the meter this way. I don’t think I’ve ever done it his way.


When a guy first told me about that, I thought it was a great idea. But it's a pain to do unless you are using bare conductor. 

In the end, properly terminating 2 conductors is fine, connecting conductors is our job.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MTW said:


> Mark it down, because it won't happen for a long time again.


I see.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

HackWork said:


> But in a residential repair that has existing aluminum on both sides? Come on now...


I don’t think it’s silly, a few people may think there is a difference and there could be a sale there at a premium price. As far as aluminum both sides, I think CH CH series are copper bus and lugs. It’s all I’ll use when I do a panel in a plant we have. Yeah I know r-mix isn’t residential.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

460 Delta said:


> I don’t think it’s silly, a few people may think there is a difference and there could be a sale there at a premium price. As far as aluminum both sides, I think CH CH series are copper bus and lugs. It’s all I’ll use when I do a panel in a plant we have. Yeah I know r-mix isn’t residential.


When I said both sides, I meant the other side of the electrical meter. There is aluminum conductors running from the electrical meter to the main panel inside of the house. Just like there’s aluminum wire running throughout the neighborhood and to the house. The only thing that is copper now is that little 12 foot piece directly in the middle. 

It is very silly, there is absolutely no benefit. And you will make more money installing aluminum while selling for the premium price as I described earlier.

There’s no compelling reason to do this. The only reason it was done is because of stigma or ignorance.

Any idiot customer who would pay a premium for that 12 foot section to be copper could also be sold on a premium upgrade to _XHHW-2 Alumaflex AA-8000 series aluminum alloy conductor with SIMpull thermoset cross-linked polyethylene insulation. _


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## Max C. (Sep 29, 2016)

In my opinion, the one major benefit of using copper service conductors is their lower resistance. This can be crucial for conductor/lug-sizes with long-runs, however - as you pointed out, Hax - that video depicted a mere 12-foot distance...


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Would anyone want their house wired with #12, and #10 Al wiring for the branch ?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dronai said:


> Would anyone want their house wired with #12, and #10 Al wiring for the branch ?


With the aluminum alloy available today, I would have no problem with it as long as devices with aluminum rated lugs were used.

Once you factor in the price difference of the devices, I’m not sure if you would save much if anything.

But in the video, between using copper and not downsizing the neutral, he literally burned a $50 bill. And that’s only replacing a short portion of the service.


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## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

Maybe the old service was a ten foot stick. So he left that small piece to move the service head up above the point of attachment? I’m sure he made enough money to splurge on a new hub an a wasted piece of 2”. 

What are the chances of it being schedule 80?


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