# New square D QO tandem breakers for the butcher



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

Are these the tandem breakers with two tiny toggles side by side?

I've been using those for ~10 years or so....


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Tandem breakers are expensive. I don’t use them much anymore. I will first recommend adding a sub panel. If the customer does not want to pay for that, I will tell them that I could double up some circuits that don’t use much power. If they end up tripping the breakers on those circuits later, then it proves that they need a subpanel. I love getting the call, “you were right, when can you come and install that subpanel”.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

So far as the wirenuts in the panel... is it in fact a "new" install when these are changes made after the factory?


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

u2slow said:


> So far as the wirenuts in the panel... is it in fact a "new" install when these are changes made after the factory?




The panel is cut in and installed on site. The modular sections are quick connect romex and there is a bundle long enough to extend to the new panel location. Some of the AFCI breakers had no neutral. This panel uses their breakers that snap onto the neutral rail. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

HackWork said:


> Tandem breakers are expensive. I don’t use them much anymore. I will first recommend adding a sub panel. If the customer does not want to pay for that, I will tell them that I could double up some circuits that don’t use much power. If they end up tripping the breakers on those circuits later, then it proves that they need a subpanel. I love getting the call, “you were right, when can you come and install that subpanel”.




Tandem breaker is about $15. Square D tandem breakers have a hook in the back to secure then to the panel rail. Only the bottom 5 or so spots allow you to use them. This is to prevent you from exceeding 42 over current devices in a panel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

VELOCI3 said:


> The panel is cut in and installed on site. The modular sections are quick connect romex and there is a bundle long enough to extend to the new panel location. Some of the AFCI breakers had no neutral. This panel uses their breakers that snap onto the neutral rail.


Right... so its up to the factory to leave enough 'tail' to terminate in the panel? Opening up a wall and re-feeding the home run would probably upset the factory certification of that circuit or wall assembly.

That QO panelboard's neutral bars are on either side of the main breaker at the top. Doesn't the AFCI's white wire terminate up there?

My 32 space QO panel is rated for 54 circuits. I don't mind the newer tandems. I don't often need them though.


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

u2slow said:


> Right... so its up to the factory to leave enough 'tail' to terminate in the panel? Opening up a wall and re-feeding the home run would probably upset the factory certification of that circuit or wall assembly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The breaker body snaps into the neutral rail so there are no tails on afci and gfci breakers. 


The factory doesn’t install the panel. The foundation and basement level are built on site. The contractor provides a service and installs the provided panel. 

The tandem breakers installed by the electrician were heavily modified to fit the panel. 

As of NEC 2008 all new panels have to have rejection features built in so a user cannot put more breakers in than its rating


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Was that only 2008? I thought it was long before then.

You can buy cheater tandems to fit in almost any panel, but they cost more.


----------



## u2slow (Jan 2, 2014)

VELOCI3 said:


> The breaker body snaps into the neutral rail so there are no tails on afci and gfci breakers.
> 
> 
> The factory doesn’t install the panel. The foundation and basement level are built on site. The contractor provides a service and installs the provided panel.
> ...



Interesting. I have not seen that style QO AFCI or GFCI yet.

I get the factory doesn't install the panel. But the electrician's scope of work is just the panel, not running the circuits. He's left to tie in factory-approved pre-wired circuits. I was only citing a possible reason... but I missed the breaker damage/modification until you pointed it out. :vs_whistle: 

My panel is about 2015 vintage. Tandems fit fine.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

QO tandems are $50 and not subject to the QO buying program discount. 

That's an insane amount of circuits in that panel, I bet most of them could be doubled up.


----------



## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

VELOCI3 said:


> Tandem breaker is about $15. Square D tandem breakers have a hook in the back to secure then to the panel rail. Only the bottom 5 or so spots allow you to use them. This is to prevent you from exceeding 42 over current devices in a panel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


true in US, in canada we dont have that hook so we can fill a 40 spaces panel with 40 tandem if we want !


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Plugs. :biggrin:


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> Plugs. :biggrin:


Up here, if you call someone a Plug, it's an insult :surprise: ... Kinda like 'tool'

You need to say sorry now
:biggrin:


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Yet another reason NOT to use QO panels. 

SqD QO CTL tandems are $20. Non-CTL tandems are $50. WTF?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Speedy Petey said:


> Yet another reason NOT to use QO panels.
> 
> SqD QO CTL tandems are $20. Non-CTL tandems are $50. WTF?


The price of cheaters shouldn't matter to all of you people who follow the code, which is everyone on this forum, or so you say. Watch it or Dennis will get mad.


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Southeast Power said:


> Plugs. :biggrin:




Here is a pic from the driveway. Note the GFI receptacles at 12 and 25’ above grade










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

VELOCI3 said:


> Here is a pic from the driveway. Note the GFI receptacles at 12 and 25’ above grade
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At some point, there were decks outside those sliding glass doors.


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

micromind said:


> At some point, there were decks outside those sliding glass doors.




Houses are brand new from factory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Sometimes those cookie cutter houses don't come from the factory with all the accessories, such as decks. And no one tells the assembly line electrician any different.


----------

