# Electric radiant heat ceiling repairs



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

2tallskiingtom said:


> We have a client who ownes scores of apartment buildings in Southern California. He has one building with 16 units, all containing electric radiant ceiling heat and several units are not heating up. We did a complete-building diagnosis and found that all of the bad ceilings show signs of breaks in the wiring on the load side. We checked all of the breakers, line voltage to the t-stat and the t-stats themselves and they all tested OK. The $64,000 question is this: Is there a cost-effective way to find and repair the break? The heating elements are sandwitched between 2 layers of gypsum board with popcorn blown on. Please advise, thanks.


You can probably use a non voltage tester to find the break. As to repairs-- good luck


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've only encountered this twice and the solution both times was to install baseboard heat. 

Since this is rental property, I doubt the landlords will go for anything expensive and that is the cheapest and fastest fix in my opinion, assuming you can get a new cable out of the thermostat and down the the baseboard fairly easily.

Now, with some tracing equipment you could locate the fault in the embedded cable, but I have no idea how you would actually repair the cable itself.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

some radiant heat has manufacturer repair kits and also troubleshooting tools. are these out of warranty or old units or brand new units still under warranty ? have you tried contacting the manufacturer for advice ?


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## 2tallskiingtom (Apr 24, 2010)

wildleg said:


> some radiant heat has manufacturer repair kits and also troubleshooting tools. are these out of warranty or old units or brand new units still under warranty ? have you tried contacting the manufacturer for advice ?


These are old units so waranty is out of the question. As for the manufacturer, I don't think they know who built these units. We've located a device that's designed to find breaks in the wiring but we have no idea how tough (or easy) it will be to find the break and make repairs. We'd be interested in any of y'all's experience.


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

Someone must have ran a screw or cut a box into the wiring, it is a continuous run and wires dont just go bad, unless damaged... I used to see alot of this and have repaired alot of "ceiling heat". They still sell the wire and also have splice kits for it. I cant think of the name of the company, but a google search should do the trick. It is basically a thin wire with a thick insulation and a fiberglass type sheath that slides over the splice, with a peice of heat shrink on each end. There is usually a 3" wide by 8" long drywall repair that needs to be made. I have never seen it installed between two layers of drywall before tho. In Florida it was installed in the 60's and was install on top of plasterboard and under plaster.


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## varmit (Apr 19, 2009)

Though it is not fun to do, radiant ceiling heat is normally repaired from the attic, if there is one. The top layer of drywall is cut ( the layer toward the attic ). The repairs are made and the drywall is patched. If there is no attic, someone is SOL, unless the want to replace the ceiling. Baseboard heat is the usual fix in most of these cases.

To find the bad spot, you need a high voltage low current power source. A small Hi-pot tester is best, but expensive. An electric fence transformer, from a farm supply store would probably work. Disconnect the heat leads from the t-stat, connect the high voltage source to the heating cable and listen closely for the buzzing where ever the heating cable is broken. The buzzing is the arcing across the cable break.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

varmit said:


> To find the bad spot, you need a high voltage low current power source. A small Hi-pot tester is best, but expensive. An electric fence transformer, from a farm supply store would probably work. Disconnect the heat leads from the t-stat, connect the high voltage source to the heating cable and listen closely for the buzzing where ever the heating cable is broken. The buzzing is the arcing across the cable break.


I have a job like this on Monday, I'm thinking of using a neon transformer to send out a high voltage.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Did you contact the manufacture, I know with floor heat we used a 5 kv megger and IR to locate breaks and the manufacture had a repair kit.

The megger and IR were the manufactures suggestion and the EC contacted us for the work.

Contact the manufacture and a testing firm.


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

You could "Thump" it and maybe it will blow a hole in the ceiling where the fault is located.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Spunk#7 said:


> You could "Thump" it and maybe it will blow a hole in the ceiling where the fault is located.


When I was a helper we did that for some parking ramp heat mat. We went to this project 4 or 5 times and tried everything to locate the issue, finally the JW told the owner only one thing might work. It worked blew the matt out of the deck in 10-15 places, they saw cut the deck, installed MI and resurfaced the ramp.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

brian john said:


> Did you contact the manufacture, I know with floor heat we used a 5 kv megger and IR to locate breaks and the manufacture had a repair kit.
> 
> The megger and IR were the manufactures suggestion and the EC contacted us for the work.
> 
> Contact the manufacture and a testing firm.


I don't think 5KV is high enough to hear the arc. I've heard that the Neon XFMR will work, and the video looks like it would be loud enough to hear. 

These homes are built back in the 50's I think. I don't think it was ever installed after the 60's ?

You think I would need IR ?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

Spunk#7 said:


> You could "Thump" it and maybe it will blow a hole in the ceiling where the fault is located.


 
:laughing: How many Volts are those things ?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

dronai said:


> I don't think 5KV is high enough to hear the arc. I've heard that the Neon XFMR will work, and the video looks like it would be loud enough to hear.
> 
> These homes are built back in the 50's I think. I don't think it was ever installed after the 60's ?
> 
> You think I would need IR ?



5kv heated the spot enough to be noticable with IR, they cooled down the room first.


When I did construction we installed some in ceilings in historical structures in Harper Ferry WVA.


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## RHWilks (Jul 14, 2012)

Zombie thread from 2010?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

RHWilks said:


> Zombie thread from 2010?


Old thread new job :laughing:


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Innovative said:


> Someone must have ran a screw or cut a box into the wiring, it is a continuous run and wires dont just go bad, unless damaged... I used to see alot of this and have repaired alot of "ceiling heat". They still sell the wire and also have splice kits for it. I cant think of the name of the company, but a google search should do the trick. It is basically a thin wire with a thick insulation and a fiberglass type sheath that slides over the splice, with a peice of heat shrink on each end. There is usually a 3" wide by 8" long drywall repair that needs to be made. I have never seen it installed between two layers of drywall before tho. In Florida it was installed in the 60's and was install on top of plasterboard and under plaster.


I don't know. Resistive heat does have a life span. If there are multiple breaks it could be a sign of old age. I agree with the suggestion to replace with baseboard heating.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

99cents said:


> I don't know. Resistive heat does have a life span. If there are multiple breaks it could be a sign of old age. I agree with the suggestion to replace with baseboard heating.



I would think more than one or two breaks and you are up the creek without a paddle


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

This job, they just scrapped the popcorn ceiling, and an Electrician cut in cans. I am there to verify they damaged the wiring, and how much to fix it. I wonder if the wires used for floor heating would work for the repair ? I think all I need is insulation rated at 90 C.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

dronai said:


> This job, they just scrapped the popcorn ceiling, and an Electrician cut in cans. I am there to verify they damaged the wiring, and how much to fix it. I wonder if the wires used for floor heating would work for the repair ? I think all I need is insulation rated at 90 C.


You're braver than I am. If you can't verify manufacturer and an approved splicing method, I would abandon it at the source and install something new. If holes were cut for recessed cans, it isn't a simple break. You could end up jumpering around the cans, meaning you have two splices for every break. Even if floor heating splices work, you are leaving yourself open to liability.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

99cents said:


> You're braver than I am. If you can't verify manufacturer and an approved splicing method, I would abandon it at the source and install something new. If holes were cut for recessed cans, it isn't a simple break. You could end up jumpering around the cans, meaning you have two splices for every break. Even if floor heating splices work, you are leaving yourself open to liability.


I've worked on a few jobs years ago, where a guy came in and repaired with jumpers. This method is used for all the homes that depend on that heating system. Yes you do end up jumping around damaged areas.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

not familiar this heating system, but something no one mentioned, is there aplace in each unit to test each individual unit?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

papaotis said:


> not familiar this heating system, but something no one mentioned, is there aplace in each unit to test each individual unit?


Yeah at the thermostat.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

papaotis said:


> not familiar this heating system, but something no one mentioned, is there aplace in each unit to test each individual unit?


Unit ? :laughing: The unit would be the individual rooms. This is a coil of wire, that they stapled to the underside of the gypsum board ceiling in a snaking pattern, and then plastered over in 1950's-60's homes. It terminates at the T stat, which can be 120V, or usually 240V 20A breaker. So the T stat is your testing point.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

dronai said:


> I've worked on a few jobs years ago, where a guy came in and repaired with jumpers. This method is used for all the homes that depend on that heating system. Yes you do end up jumping around damaged areas.


Interesting. In Canada, there were a number of house fires relating to radiant ceiling heat and disconnect notices were issued. I am sure it was limited to one manufacturer but we don't see a lot of it used here as a result. Maybe that's what scares me.


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## raldous (Aug 6, 2009)

If you have one available and someone that knew their way around with it, a TDR (Time Domain Relectometer) would get you within a few inches of the break. The trick will be to know where (and in what pattern) in the ceiling the wire actually runs in order to measure to the point the TDR says is the suspect spot.

All that being said, baseboard heat would be way faster and cheaper.


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

raldous said:


> If you have one available and someone that knew their way around with it, a TDR (Time Domain Relectometer) would get you within a few inches of the break. The trick will be to know where (and in what pattern) in the ceiling the wire actually runs in order to measure to the point the TDR says is the suspect spot.
> 
> All that being said, baseboard heat would be way faster and cheaper.


The coils are run pretty tight


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

it sounds to me like a system for warm all year places, where it cold if it gets below 65!:whistling2:not here, thats why ive never seen one


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

99cents said:


> Interesting. In Canada, there were a number of house fires relating to radiant ceiling heat and disconnect notices were issued. I am sure it was limited to one manufacturer but we don't see a lot of it used here as a result. Maybe that's what scares me.


Fire would need air, I wonder how that worked ?


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

papaotis said:


> it sounds to me like a system for warm all year places, where it cold if it gets below 65!:whistling2:not here, thats why ive never seen one


The electric bill must be high too :laughing: It's kind of like an electric blanket


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

dronai said:


> The coils are run pretty tight


 now is this to heat the space above, or below?:001_huh:


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## dronai (Apr 11, 2011)

papaotis said:


> now is this to heat the space above, or below?:001_huh:


Below
They skim coat with 1/8" or 1/4" or sandwich between another plaster board


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

If someone cut cans in that ceiling the heat system if toast. You can't fix that many breaks.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

dronai said:


> Fire would need air, I wonder how that worked ?


I guess it was ceiling panels, not this zig-zag stuff:

www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/846/27_40_217.pdf


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

dronai said:


> Below
> They skim coat with 1/8" or 1/4" or sandwich between another plaster board


 how hot does this get to radiate to thefloor? never mind! i again realize your in a warmer climate year round


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

It is pretty popular around here. I see it alot in 50s and 60s houses which were wired by the rec. Works great and its a nice even heat compared to other forced air systems installed back then.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

tks, ive never seen one in eastern ia, but floor hydonic heat is making a come back as more people are starting to understand the startup cost compared to the overall outcome of energy and comfort! including me!:whistling2:


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