# T & M's rate



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

What does it cost you to do business? Are you in business?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> What does it cost you to do business? Are you in business?


Cost me nothing. Just my labor. 2 gallons of gas to get over there. Can't do jobber rates. It's a GC, that has a ton of work for me, and always will.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Cost me nothing. Just my labor. 2 gallons of gas to get over there. Can't do jobber rates. It's a GC, that has a ton of work for me, and always will.


That wouldn't matter to me. I'd charge my T&M rate. 

I get the feeling this guy is looking for a side-worker.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Speedy Petey said:


> That wouldn't matter to me. I'd charge my T&M rate.
> 
> I get the feeling this guy is looking for a side-worker.


 Ok, what is your T&M rate ?


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> Ok, what is your T&M rate ?


Between $50 & $100 depending on my mood.

Are you a legitimate business or doing side work?
Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to gauge my replies.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Spark Master...

You don't even seem to have the attitude of an EC.

The GC picks and supplies the materials ?

Sheesh.

How the heck would he know what to purchase ?

%%%

Call me rude, but on first sniff, it smells like he wants to dump his W/C and 0-care expenses -- on to you.

Heh.

Other than that, you're just his employee... with skills... but just his employee.

He won't have any 'action' for you until you've dropped below what he's been compelled to pay a licensed EC... probably well below... !

BTW, having only one client -- and a small GC at that -- is suicide at this point in the business cycle.

No, you're not so magical that you can skip the coming contraction. 

The contracting world does not work that way.

%%%%

As his employee, the faster and better you work -- the less you make.

Sounds like a winning solution -- for him.

You'll find that you can't rejigger your labor rate. He's your employer, after all.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What I charge has absolutely no bearing on what YOU should charge.

Sounds like the GC is wanting you to work as an employee, but consider you to be contract labor. This is a totally win for him, and a totally lose for you. 

The GC gets to boss you around, tell you how and why and when to work, and you're just a grunt. You get paid what you will believe is a kings' ransom but in reality is paupers' wages, then you're on the hook for taxes. No bennies...... insurance, unemployment, etc.

If you want to play Electrical Contractor, grow a pair and act like one.


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## Bootss (Dec 30, 2011)

Whatever you do start high and then you can come down a little bit.
:thumbup::thumbup:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I'll hedge a little here. If you're just starting out, and they will be flexible with your hours - you come and go as you please - that could work out for you. As long as it doesn't interfere with you building your own business, it would be nice to have some fallback money coming in. 

If they'd agree to it, and you'd have someone to borrow a scissors lift or big drill from when you need it ... that would be pretty handy. 

One thing, I'd run it by your accountant and see if you want them to pay you as a 1099 or W2 employee. That will be an important part of how much you need to make for it to be worth your while. If they can save you any money by putting you on their health insurance etc., that's worth considering too.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> Cost me nothing. Just my labor. 2 gallons of gas to get over there. Can't do jobber rates. It's a GC, that has a ton of work for me, and always will.


Race to the bottom.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

You guys crack me up. We all know that he is just asking what the NY guys charge. He could say $10,000 per hour and you jokers would say "that is not enough". Why can't you just answer his question? 
I charge $72 per hour in NE. That is HIGH. 
I understand that you want him to learn his overhead, but why not just throw some real pricing out there. Are you scared and if so why?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

sbrn33 said:


> You guys crack me up. We all know that he is just asking what the NY guys charge. He could say $10,000 per hour and you jokers would say "that is not enough". Why can't you just answer his question?
> I charge $72 per hour in NE. That is HIGH.
> I understand that you want him to learn his overhead, but why not just throw some real pricing out there. Are you scared and if so why?


Seems low to me, since most people pay more than that for their mechanic !


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

This thread is a perfect reminder of why it is so difficult to make an acceptable margin in this industry.


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Speedy Petey said:


> That wouldn't matter to me. I'd charge my T&M rate.
> 
> I get the feeling this guy is looking for a side-worker.


Yup.

I figure: no W/C, no unemployment insurance expense, no 0-care expense, ...

OP is not even going to get piece-work rates.

Before you know it, OP will have the GC providing a young 'assistant.'

(to cross train) 

:no::no::no::no::no:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

flyboy said:


> This thread is a perfect reminder of why it is so difficult to make an acceptable margin in this industry.


Despite your sisyphean feat of portraying the CODB , we will _sadly_ always be competing with the ignorati on an uneven playing field....

*It ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe
It don't matter, anyhow
And it ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe
If you don't know by now
When your insurance and tax man are ripped
Look out your window and I'll be gone
You're the reason I give the man the slip
Don't think twice, it's all right.

It ain't no use in askin' for a voucher, babe
That's because i've not been hired
And it ain't no use askin' for a W9, babe
nuthin' you say will get me fired
But I know there's nuthin' you could do or say
Beacuse of all the dead presidents you threw my way
We never do too much invoicing anyway
So don't think twice, it's all right.

It ain't no use in calling out my name, gal
Like you never done before
It ain't no use in calling out my name, gal
I can't hear you any more
I'll just slam my trunk , head on down the road
The ahj looks away for a fifty I'm told
I slipped him what he wants, now the job is sold
Don't think twice, it's all right.*



~C(w/apologies to Mr Dylan)S~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Despite your sisyphean feat of portraying the CODB , we will _sadly_ always be competing with the ignorati on an uneven playing field.........


There's no law stating we're required to assist said ignorati in maintaining aforesaid uneven playing field.

However, if our efforts are aimed at replacing ignorance with illumination, the true light to success will shine on the proper path.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

$250/hr is a good number. You will make your break even costs, and a profit. Go with that and thank me later. Of course the potato head GC will not let you get that cause he is the only one who makes any profit and intends to keep it that way. 

But good news- You don't need him. There is always lots of work to do at the price I just told you about. You just need to learn its best to quote upfront and not reveal your hourly rates. Try it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> .....But good news- You don't need him to tell you what you should charge per hour............



Fify.


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## gryczewskip (Oct 27, 2015)

I can do side work for 50

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

gryczewskip said:


> I can do side work for 50
> 
> Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


Thats true, but if your were smart you could/would be doing that same side work for $100/hour. I've made a career of doing "side work" for much higher than that.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Remember when the car company Geo went out of business because they thought they could be the cheapest? 

Me too.


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## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

15 years ago, I paid sub-contractor electricians $35/hr. They had to have liability insurance and I made sure their invoices were listed per job, not per hour. An invoice listed per hour can cause government agencies list unemployment to consider them an employee.
Since then, I have all employees and do not sub-contract. If I did, I''d pay them about $43/hr.


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## gryczewskip (Oct 27, 2015)

Mshow1323 said:


> Thats true, but if your were smart you could/would be doing that same side work for $100/hour. I've made a career of doing "side work" for much higher than that.


I have a full time job for a large contractor. I do it for the health insurance. 
Side work most Saturday's $50.00 T&M 

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480sparky said:


> There's no law stating we're required to assist said ignorati in maintaining aforesaid uneven playing field.
> 
> However, if our efforts are aimed at replacing ignorance with illumination, the true light to success will shine on the proper path.


You're a true *pro* 480, one who is apparently a _bona fide die hard proletariat _that still caters to the great unwashed.........:thumbsup:

I have to take my hat off to that, by comparison i'm an old misanthropist curmudgeon in your presence....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

gryczewskip said:


> I have a full time job for a large contractor. I do it for the health insurance.
> Side work most Saturday's $50.00 T&M
> 
> Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk



Which works well, until the insurance cabal crawls up , and takes residence in your large intestine 

~CS~


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## gryczewskip (Oct 27, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> Which works well, until the insurance cabal crawls up , and takes residence in your large intestine
> 
> ~CS~


Thats why I need health insurance

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

gryczewskip said:


> Thats why I need health insurance
> 
> Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


I don't think CS is talking about your health insurance.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Marxism on a Wednesday night ... Ah I miss ET


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

gryczewskip said:


> I have a full time job for a large contractor. I do it for the health insurance. Side work most Saturday's $50.00 T&M Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


 Is $50 per hour more or less than you would make at 1-1/2 rates on Saturday from your employer? Don't forget to include insurance and retirement benefits. If it is less, ask yourself why you would assume such liability and responsibility while making less than an hourly employee.


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## gryczewskip (Oct 27, 2015)

4 10 Friday 0ff

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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It costs us about $50 per hour for a journeyman.
Impossible to know your situation but,
For that amount of pay, rock bottom can't be less than $1000 in an 8 hour day.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> Cost me nothing. Just my labor. 2 gallons of gas to get over there. Can't do jobber rates. It's a GC, that has a ton of work for me, and always will.


All things have a price.... Everything... You just don't see it or feel it yet ...putting a light up for a neighbor is one thing pounding out jobs for a contractor is asking for problems. What's the cost of that?


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## telsa (May 22, 2015)

RGH said:


> All things have a price.... Everything... You just don't see it or feel it yet ...putting a light up for a neighbor is one thing pounding out jobs for a contractor is asking for problems. What's the cost of that?


True wisdom.

:thumbsup:


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

flyboy said:


> This thread is a perfect reminder of why it is so difficult to make an acceptable margin in this industry.


:laughing:

You can't make margins because of some guy on a website?:laughing:

That's too funny....


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Every single time I pull another $350 out of a power not working ten minute service call and quickly find me a backstab wire that smoked an outlet , I say to myself ''WINNER'' in the same pronounced voice I always hear Adam Corolla say it to his buddy Ray when Ace On The House show callers reveal they have just purchased a new home. I must have done this at least 25 or thirty times in 2015 so far.

You can have your $60 an hour rate. Enjoy your life.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Every single time I pull another $350 out of a power not working ten minute service call and quickly find me a backstab wire that smoked an outlet , I say to myself ''WINNER'' in the same pronounced voice I always hear Adam Corolla say it to his buddy Ray when Ace On The House show callers reveal they have just purchased a new home. I must have done this at least 25 or thirty times in 2015 so far.
> 
> You can have your $60 an hour rate. Enjoy your life.


And when someone says, "But it only took you 15 minutes to fix this... why are you charging me $350?". I reply, "It took me _25 years_ to learn how to do that in 15 minutes."


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

480sparky said:


> And when someone says, "But it only took you 15 minutes to fix this... why are you charging me $350?". "


We can suppose this is the same person that looks over your shoulder while your working, and the same person who is holding a stop watch timing what you are doing, and the same person who photo's all the parts you are using and googling on the phone how much each part you are using really costs?


You either live in a major hell hole, or you make up alot of crap to try and prove the argument you're trying to make. 

C'mon man, if all this stuff happens to you, I'd leave that Hee-Haw place you live in and move.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Helmut said:


> We can suppose this is the same person that looks over your shoulder while your working, and the same person who is holding a stop watch timing what you are doing, and the same person who photo's all the parts you are using and googling on the phone how much each part you are using really costs?
> 
> 
> You either live in a major hell hole, or you make up alot of crap to try and prove the argument you're trying to make.
> ...



What the h$*% are you babbling about?


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

480sparky said:


> What the h$*% are you babbling about?


I want to meet the people that actually say half the stuff you say they do.

I bet it doesn't happen at all, and you make this stuff up.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

The one about the guy following you around tapping his watch the whole time is a classic.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Helmut said:


> I want to meet the people that actually say half the stuff you say they do.
> 
> I bet it doesn't happen at all, and you make this stuff up.


You're saying _no one_ *ever *questions the bills they get after someone repairs their home?

What planet do you live on?


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

480sparky said:


> You're saying _no one_ *ever *questions the bills they get after someone repairs their home?
> 
> What planet do you live on?


Don't back track on us now, don't change words around to go in a different direction. 

I said I want to meet just one of these people, or maybe it's the same person for all we know, who walks around tapping their watch, who is always looking over your shoulder, and who questions the price and quanity of parts you used. You claim this happens to every person charging a T&M rate versus a flat rate. I just want to come to HEE-HAW valley and meet them. I am saying they never existing to you and that you make this stuff up to bolster the argument you are trying to make. Now prove me wrong. Who is this person of persons that you claim do this stuff, cause I ain't never met anyone who walked behind me and tapped their watch, or who timed me to fix something and then only wanted to pay me for 15 minutes. Granted there are people out there in this big world who probably think like that, but you sure do find everyone of them.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Helmut said:


> Don't back track on us now, don't change words around to go in a different direction. .....


Ummmm.... what track? You seemed to have gone off on a completely different tangent. One that takes you to the 19th dimension.



Helmut said:


> ....You claim this happens to every person charging a T&M rate versus a flat rate......



Ummmmm, once again. What the h*#$ are you talking about? Exactly where did I make this claim?


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## tersus (Jul 3, 2012)

Helmut said:


> The one about the guy following you around tapping his watch the whole time is a classic.


If we're talking about being in a T&M situation, I think everybody could relate with the figurative meaning behind this statement. On the other hand, if you've done flat rate task based work like I have, it's easy to feel like you've got someone following you around tapping their watch the whole time.


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## ELECTRICK2 (Feb 21, 2015)

What amazes me is the how different resi customers can be. Some accept you're the pro and let you do you're thing. Others watch every move you make, Others just say make it work. But then won't pay the bill, cuz it didn't look that hard to fix or it shouldn't have taken that long.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

34 years and you never know what lies on the other side of the door. One person quips another tips ! Had them all..... I tell people it's easy buy a truck, purchase $5000 worth of tools and $2500 worth of parts for that ride and get 60000 hours of experience and you can do it too. Simple.


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## drewsserviceco (Aug 1, 2014)

I wish I only spent that amount on tools and materials......


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## btharmy (Jan 17, 2009)

Helmut said:


> Don't back track on us now, don't change words around to go in a different direction. I said I want to meet just one of these people, or maybe it's the same person for all we know, who walks around tapping their watch, who is always looking over your shoulder, and who questions the price and quanity of parts you used. You claim this happens to every person charging a T&M rate versus a flat rate. I just want to come to HEE-HAW valley and meet them. I am saying they never existing to you and that you make this stuff up to bolster the argument you are trying to make. Now prove me wrong. Who is this person of persons that you claim do this stuff, cause I ain't never met anyone who walked behind me and tapped their watch, or who timed me to fix something and then only wanted to pay me for 15 minutes. Granted there are people out there in this big world who probably think like that, but you sure do find everyone of them.


I just had a customer Friday who fit this exact profile. Over my shoulder the whole time. I quoted the work in person on Tuesday and he agrees and ask me to do the work Friday. In the mean time he apparently browsed youtoob and looked up at least the basic materials online. So now he is an expert when I show up Friday. Telling me how much the materials cost and that anybody could do what I'm doing and I should discount my price because he could do it himself if he hadn't already hired me. So, "Helmut" why don't you grab a beer and chill. Just because something has never happened to you (or so you claim) doesn't mean it never happens to any of the other 7 billion people in this world.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I find it's best to teach customers as I go along. Some are truly interested, and appreciate the information.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I find the overwhelming number of residential GC's to be 
Imps of Hell who don't bat an eye at screwing the trades. 
I would lay money down that this guy doesn't get paid 
regardless of how hard & fast he drops his rates. If he is
not licensed and pulling permits , the GC has him by his 
short hairs right off the bat.
I would not give an hourly rate , I would quote the work at
the competitive rates in his area , make sure permits are
pulled , notice of furnishings / commencement of work are
filed.
He does not say the type of work , class of building he is 
working in ..I'm assuming it's residential. The going hourly
rate does depend on his costs of doing business. I would be
very wary of the GC who is having unlicensed improperly 
run businesses doing his work (if this is the case).
Whoever is left standing when the music stops will be blamed 
for the damages or even personal injury / death as a result 
of shotty work done by whomever.
Be careful , GC's offering all the work you can handle is pie
in the sky , at least where I come from . It's a classic sign
that you may be the next victim.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Any of us doing resi service calls knows that "you
don't know what's behind the next door"...Good point 
made and I completely agree. 
Also , the guy from Honolulu whos never had a customer 
stand over him ??? Really? 
If i weren't 51 and had invested so much time into my 
trade I'd completely quit taking residential service calls.
Why? Well pull up achair & I'll tell you why. Because most
residential homes are neglected either by allowing hack
work or just plain ignoring maintenance and when electrical
finally goes , it costs TODAYS cost of living , material costs
etc.. to fix the problem and not costs of the year the house 
was built
Besides, very few people want to pay contractor rates because 
very few people have proper perspective on what it costs a 
contractor to operate at. In their ignorance , they feel they are
getting ripped off.
I realize the economy in Hawaii is much higher than here in 
Ohio , but damn...$350.00 for 15 minutes and no one has ever
bitched ..I'm on the plane to Hawaii TONIGHT.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

"I would do it myself, but I just don't have the time". Then he stands there and watches the whole install.
When someone tells me he could do it himself cheaper than I want to charge I usually say Go ahead, have at it. That either gets him to leave me alone or show me the door. I'm okay with either option.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

If someone's giving you money, why complain ??????
I'm doing lots of work for a GC. $75/hr

He's supplying the materials. I'm not standing in line at the supply house. Not going to the home depot.

It's good, clean work, indoors. It's holiday time, I'm glad to be making the side money.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Spark Master said:


> I'm doing lots of work for a GC. $75/hr
> 
> .................., I'm glad to be making the side money.


That's not bad money for side work. At least you're not likely undercutting the regular guys too much. 
Does your area not require a license?


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

It does require a license. Not a problem.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*hubris....*



macmikeman said:


> Every single time I pull another $350 out of a power not working ten minute service call and quickly find me a backstab wire that smoked an outlet , I say to myself ''WINNER'' in the same pronounced voice I always hear Adam Corolla say it to his buddy Ray when Ace On The House show callers reveal they have just purchased a new home. I must have done this at least 25 or thirty times in 2015 so far.
> 
> You can have your $60 an hour rate. Enjoy your life.


Average in the multitudes of calls you spent HOURS looking for that bum splice for $350, and you're probably in the T&M range for emergency response Mac

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> If someone's giving you money, why complain ??????
> I'm doing lots of work for a GC. $75/hr
> 
> .


Because we believe in a level playing field Spark

So if you're* not *a registered biz with the NY sec of state, have *no* contractors and/or workers comp insurance, *no *company shop ,*no* company truck *AND* are _not paying taxes on a bona fide biz_, just what do you think the response(s) from those who *ARE* playin' the game right is going to be here?

~CS~


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Because we believe in a level playing field Spark
> 
> So if you're* not *a registered biz with the NY sec of state, have *no* contractors and/or workers comp insurance, *no *company shop ,*no* company truck *AND* are _not paying taxes on a bona fide biz_, just what do you think the response(s) from those who *ARE* playin' the game right is going to be here?
> 
> ~CS~


Amen!

I live around a huge Amish community . Not predjudice , but
the advantages they enjoy by not having to follow the same
rules as a"yankee" business are totally unfair and drop their
overhead drastically.

One example is when I was called by an amish GC to "fill in" 
on a job for his usual "electrician" . He said his guy was an
amish guy with no license , :no:but the county lets him operate
anyhow because he's amish , so he gets a pass on regulations
that I have to maintain.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> Because we believe in a level playing field Spark
> 
> So if you're* not *a registered biz with the NY sec of state, have *no* contractors and/or workers comp insurance, *no *company shop ,*no* company truck *AND* are _not paying taxes on a bona fide biz_, just what do you think the response(s) from those who *ARE* playin' the game right is going to be here?
> 
> ~CS~


 
No such thing as a level playing field. Otherwise there would be no competition. 

For those wanting a level playing field, join the union; and your boss will prevent you from getting your license, so he has no competition. and then when he looses a contract, you sit home with your thumb in your a$$.


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## Mshow1323 (Jun 9, 2012)

Spark Master said:


> No such thing as a level playing field. Otherwise there would be no competition.


You've got that backwards. If there was a level playing field (cost wise) there would be nothing but competition. You're still going to compete based upon quality, salesmanship, efficiency, etc. etc. If we're not on a level playing field (cost wise) there is no competition because price will be one of the main decision makers. 



> For those wanting a level playing field, join the union; and your boss will prevent you from getting your license, so he has no competition. and then when he looses a contract, you sit home with your thumb in your a$$.



This part is just you being angry.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

Spark Master said:


> No such thing as a level playing field. Otherwise there would be no competition.
> 
> For those wanting a level playing field, join the union; and your boss will prevent you from getting your license, so he has no competition. and then when he looses a contract, you sit home with your thumb in your a$$.


OUCH!:laughing:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

spark master said:


> no such thing as a level playing field. Otherwise there would be no competition.
> 
> For those wanting a level playing field, join the union; and your boss will prevent you from getting your license, so he has no competition. And then when he looses a contract, you sit home with your thumb in your a$$.



What does "union" or "non union" profile have to do with wanting 
"fair" competition in a highly regulated , licensed required trade? 
I agree we are in a economic system where free market competition is part of what's valuable to our free society , but you cannot ignore 
the facts that many of us are adhering to the regulatory requirements that define and separate us from non compliantly run businesses.
If we are trying to compete in this business and bidding jobs while
our overhead must be figured into operating an electrical contracting
business and others who are under the radar of non compliance are
also bidding the same job , I would say that is an unfair market. 
Guys who go behind their employers backs ( employers who are in compliance) are just killing their own wage potential because the race to the bottom will prevail.


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