# Your Competition



## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians. 

So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know. 

So answer me this, if there are guys starving on the bench willing to work for my competitors for less than half of what I have to pay, then what chance do I have competing against them and why cant I get a sliding pay-scale for when times are tough? 

...and the union brothers wonder what happened to our market share...Oh wait our union brothers still wont discuss let alone acknowledge that topic.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

We're looking at the race to the bottom right now. NAFTA and free trade have destroyed this country. We need to put tarifs in place and enforce FAIR trade. We need to harvest our natural resources responsibly. We need to generate, inexpensive, clean power through nuclear and dams. I keep hearing liberal democrats say people can retrain and we need green this and that. Fact is there are not enough good paying jobs and green is expensive and gives limited return. I hear republicans say we should have free trade and trickle down is the answer. Free trade has destroyed the country. Look where giving business free reign has gotten us. Trickle down doesn't work when it turns into a drought. Everyone voting for the last 20 years has created this bed that we now have to sleep in.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> We're looking at the race to the bottom right now. NAFTA and free trade have destroyed this country. We need to put tarifs in place and enforce FAIR trade. We need to harvest our natural resources responsibly. We need to generate, inexpensive, clean power through nuclear and dams. I keep hearing liberal democrats say people can retrain and we need green this and that. Fact is there are not enough good paying jobs and green is expensive and gives limited return. I hear republicans say we should have free trade and trickle down is the answer. Free trade has destroyed the country. Look where giving business free reign has gotten us. Trickle down doesn't work when it turns into a drought. Everyone voting for the last 20 years has created this bed that we now have to sleep in.


Mostly, I agree. Anyone who does side work for Small Money, is partially to blame and I am guilty, as charged. I've done it in the past.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*...this post is a race to the bottom...*



nitro71 said:


> We're looking at the race to the bottom right now. NAFTA and free trade have destroyed this country. We need to put tarifs in place and enforce FAIR trade. We need to harvest our natural resources responsibly. We need to generate, inexpensive, clean power through nuclear and dams. I keep hearing liberal democrats say people can retrain and we need green this and that. Fact is there are not enough good paying jobs and green is expensive and gives limited return. I hear republicans say we should have free trade and trickle down is the answer. Free trade has destroyed the country. Look where giving business free reign has gotten us. Trickle down doesn't work when it turns into a drought. Everyone voting for the last 20 years has created this bed that we now have to sleep in.


 This is completely off topic.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> This is completely off topic.


I disagree, it's just bigger picture.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Now try an ad offering BJs for 50 bucks. See how many responses you get. :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> I disagree, it's just bigger picture.



"Oh, and be sure to tell Sid 'the Big Picture'."
 ............---Dr. Harry Wolper
....................... (Peter O'Toole, _Creator_, 1985)


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

480sparky said:


> "Oh, and be sure to tell Sid 'the Big Picture'."
> ............---Dr. Harry Wolper
> .......................(Peter O'Toole, _Creator_, 1985)


I wish I understood what that quote was all about so I could credit you for being witty.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...


I would say that you should make better use of your time bidding jobs than playing around on Craigslist.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I would say that you should make better use of your time bidding jobs than playing around on Craigslist.


Very helpful, you must be the pride of FL. :thumbsup:


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> Very helpful, you must be the pride of FL. :thumbsup:



OOHHH Bob............


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> I wish I understood what that quote was all about so I could credit you for being witty.



I'm not witty, Dr. Wolper is. Watch the movie.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

My point in relation to Elvis's post about so many electricians, both union and non-union replying to his add is that the economy has created the situation where people are willing to work for less to land a job. My point also is that, what effects everyone else, effects us as electricians. The huge loss of manufacturing jobs has put less money in peoples pockets so they have less to spend on electricians. I'm starting my own business because times are so tight right now that no one is hiring in my area. I'll be under cutting the competition so I can take work away from the established EC's. I'd rather charge the same as they do but starting out you have to compete somewhere and price is king followed by quality. Everyone wants things done cheaply and correctly.


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## yucan2 (Jun 9, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...


I understand your concern's, but a sliding pay scale does not even remotely become part of the solution. It would seem to be yet another hurdle.

Some EC's are doing quite well in this market. In order to stay competitive would they then be allowed to slide their employees onto this slippery slope?

While I don't propose to have a credible offering of a solution, I know that a sliding pay scale is not it, IMHO.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

yucan2 said:


> I understand your concern's, but a sliding pay scale does not even remotely become part of the solution. It would seem to be yet another hurdle.
> 
> Some EC's are doing quite well in this market. In order to stay competitive would they then be allowed to slide their employees onto this slippery slope?
> 
> While I don't propose to have a credible offering of a solution, I know that a sliding pay scale is not it, IMHO.


All I know, for sure, is that many employees of private companies have been asked to take a pay cut or forgo scheduled raises in order to keep their job. It was their decision, and many chose the pay cut.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> ...Oh wait our union brothers still wont discuss let alone acknowledge that topic.


I hit the bench and took a ten dollar an hour pay cut to go SALT.

It sucks, it really goddamn sucks.

For the record, I have never been against the CE/CW business, maybe that will help ease the burden on our contractors.

I empathize with the signatory contractors who have to compete with bottom feeders as much as I empathize with the electricians who have nowhere to turn except to sell themselves for practically nothing...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Now try an ad offering BJs for 50 bucks. See how many responses you get. :thumbup:


Your ad reads $49. Floss.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

jrannis said:


> I would say that you should make better use of your time bidding jobs than playing around on Craigslist.


 It always amazes me how inclined union labor is to tell me how I should be managing my time, especially my personal time but think nothing of wasting mass amounts of my time with petty charges, and other pointless union business when I should be working to find YOU work.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

*It's not a race, its a stampede.*



Frasbee said:


> I disagree, it's just bigger picture.


No it is just a diversion and the same old BS.... I cant tell you how many times I have heard [race to the bottom] over the past 6 months of talks. You guys really need to think of some new buzz words, or better yet think up one for yourselves.

The question remains if your bothers will work for half price, why wont you? The real race to the bottom is a man who call's himself your brother and then sells his labor for half price behind your back (or maybe in your face) and undercuts your employer who is getting ass raped by NEBF just trying to play by the rules.

You don't want a sliding scale? I got news, you already have one, it's just under the table and the only ones who benefit from it are the non-union shops keeping me from finding work for you....AS YOU RACE TO THE BOTTOM and tell me it's my fault.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

What's happening right now is an act of desperation. This is going on all around the country Union electricians, non union electricians it doesn't really matter. Everyday I see laid off non union electricians coming into my locals hall wondering if they can get on, only to find out we're in the same shape they're in. And on the flip side I here about things with union guy's doing exactly what your saying.

As far as market share is concerned, there's no one answer.

Everyone take a deep breath, time for me to criticize my own union. Here's a few things that could possibly change our fortunes for the better,here's a similar answer I made a while back.




> 1)Quality control of membership development.Stop,stop,stop with the rampant nepotism.Bring the kids in who score highest on the test and give a good first impression at there interview,regardless of who there related to.
> Hold apprentices accountable for there performance in school.Stop pushing guy's through,if you fail,your out.
> When organizing test guy's in and put them at the right level stop handing out journeyman tickets like there candy,also when taking in apprentices if they have past experience let them test in so they can be placed at the correct level.
> 
> ...


Another of my unpopular ideas is the "S.O.J" now before some of my dear brothers rip me apart and call me a worm, scab, etc.....Listen to what I have to say. 

In my local we have "SOJ" (solicit your own job) but it's not a free for all that people will make it out to be. We have what's called 50/50. For every man hired through the SOJ the contractors next hire is off the bench. This does a few things, allows out of work members to actively look for work instead of rotting away on the bench and also allows the contractors to develop their own work force. At the same time it creates a fair system to keep the book moving. Every month the Business Manager reads the hires out and the numbers are almost identical. It will read for example like this
53 soj's/48 off the books.

These are just a couple of ways that I think we could improve are local unions.

Now to combat the ever decreasing wages is a complete different story. The reason why so many people are willing to whore themselves out right now is there's really no other options. It's like a reverse bubble so to speak, eventually its gonna pop. 


PhatElvis you really have seem to not want to be a signatory contractor anymore. Now I read your other posts where you explained your obligation to the NEBF. I would suggest hiring a really good union busting lawyer. I know of at least two former members who went into business non union and defeated the locals protests, so it is possible. The other thing is a de-certification election. If your men would really feel better working for you with out representation then go to the NLRB and file for the de-cert vote. It's handled totally by the NLRB outside of the locals officers and is a legal viable option as a contractor. Just be prepared to fight the local where your at. 


One more thing, how could you start a thread like this and not post a link to your craigslist add???:whistling2:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

bleh.............


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I am posting a craigslist ad to see what I can TROLL up.
> 
> $25 bucks? Well worth the entertainment!



:laughing:Hey Miller your a pretty funny guy. Sometimes I think your sense of humor is lost here. I always appreciate it though:thumbup:

It's a shame your on the other coast I would enjoy having a beer with you.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Vic, I like my beers drenched in tabasco sauce, sounds sick, and it burns the ass, but damn it tastes good!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Vic, I like my beers drenched in tabasco sauce, sounds sick, and it burns the ass, but damn it tastes good!



:laughing: Whatever floats your boat. You might end up with a bad case of the........


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> It always amazes me how inclined union labor is to tell me how I should be managing my time, especially my personal time but think nothing of wasting mass amounts of my time with petty charges, and other pointless union business when I should be working to find YOU work.


Funny thing is that I have been a signatory contractor for 15 years and make good money when times are good and struggle when times are bad. I don't blame the guys at the hall looking for a job. They may have had permission to salt or they may have lost their ticket for not paying dues.
Either way, is none of my business.
If you are looking to bait people with hopes of a job, gathering their personal information and think its fun to waste that many peoples time with a bogus job posting then my suspicion that their are only two things that come from Texas is correct. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSdj1J5Vw :thumbsup:








.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> Greed for the dollar.That is your answer to your sliding scale question.There are many reasons I am glad to be IBEW, I do enojoy doing electrical work and getting paid a better percentage by working union and making my personal efforts to create conditions for those who will come after I am gone. The IBEW has organized many new members in the last 5
> or so that are not as dedicated as some that made it through the program and had to endure those hardships to gain that ticket therefore it has more value. Just as some unethical union contractors wishing to make more money off the labor of his employees(because times are hard) we also have those jw's that are just as unethical.Reality is that the said nonunion contractor that would get these unethical jw's will be working with damaged souls(the adage of you get what you pay for comes to mind) So now you have me full of wonder PhatElvis where do your ethics actually lie?
> On several occassions I along with other IBEW JW's have donated their labor to contractors(once I posted before was for a church) but one job that comes to mind was a city jail in 1984 Augusta Georgia, the contractor ran into problems and was going broke, the last 2-3 months 20-40 jw's worked their days off for free to help this union contractor finish this job and survive.With this same thought I see you post that you should be able to make more money on a slide rule because times are hard.I ran jobs for this contractor once who paid me a modest hourly rate but promised me 15% of over runs (it never happened) spoke with his former emplyees who said he always produced paperwork to prove he lost money on every job but he has been in business for 25 years(go figure) If you are good at your job you bid the work and if you get the job you should always make money if not then something is amiss.Good luck to you and your endeavors PhatElvis


What a bunch of gibberish.

If you where only half as clever as you think you are you would be interesting.


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## yucan2 (Jun 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> All I know, for sure, is that many employees of private companies have been asked to take a pay cut or forgo scheduled raises in order to keep their job. It was their decision, and many chose the pay cut.


I have no problem with that scenario and applaud them for their courage.

I expect locals through out the country to have to make similar concessions in this environment come contract time.

I don't envision many pay increases and possibly some requested reductions will undoubtedly hit the table. However it will be an informed local wide membership that endorses or rejects those proposals and will not be left to individual EC's to implement "willy nilly".

I wonder though, while understanding that unemployment is depressingly high, I suspect most locals still have at least 50% employment. That being the case, I just wonder how will the members that have managed to maintain employment all through this period, vote? Now that will be interesting.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> What a bunch of gibberish.
> 
> If you where only half as clever as you think you are you would be interesting.


 Okay Bob I will admit that emotions ran high and my post was errant but does this demand an insult to my intellect or lack of? What I do claim to have Bob is working morals and ethics.I was taught from a young age that you get what you EARN in life.This is something that I am sure you understand all jokes aside.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

nitro71 said:


> . Everyone wants things done cheaply and correctly.



Everyone wants things done cheaply, many do not care if it is correct or not.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still do not understand our local going forward with a raise on June 1 in the midst of this mess.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I hit the bench and took a ten dollar an hour pay cut to go SALT.
> 
> It sucks, it really goddamn sucks.
> 
> ...



You are working open shop?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> You are working open shop?


You betcha. Quite some time now. I came up open shop.


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> All I know, for sure, is that many employees of private companies have been asked to take a pay cut or forgo scheduled raises in order to keep their job. It was their decision, and many chose the pay cut.


We signed a healthy contract a couple years ago and have not seen a dime of it, it is going to be put at the end of a contract that keeps getting longer...
Things are tough here(not as bad as most places though), but some contractors are doing very well and most likely won the jobs they have bidding with our raises built in


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

RUSSIAN said:


> W.... but some contractors are doing very well and most likely won the jobs they have bidding with our raises built in


It always amazed me how much the people who work for me think they know, they think they know how much I make, how much I bid on jobs and what is in my bank account.

They don't know Jack-Diddly

One year the local pulled all my permits out of public record and backed in a 15% profit then told all my employee how much I made that year bases on those numbers. I got hit with multiple demands for raises and bonuses and lost some good hands. That was the same year I took a bath on two big jobs and had to dip heavily into savings just to make payroll. 

With all due respect unless you are an officer of the company, or work for a publicly traded company that has to post earnings reports....then you don't know JACK. The number one rule in this business is to NEVER show blood, because if you do all your creditors will get nervous and call your lines or worse yet revoke them. When I buy a million dollar lighting package, I don't pay for it until the GC pays me, so that line of credit is a life line. Most ECs cant do business without it.

Then along comes some know-it-all blabber-mouth from the hall who thinks he know how great or how bad our business is in and spreads a bunch a crap and causes problems. Electricians are the biggest gossips.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

PhatElvis said:


> It always amazed me how much the people who work for me think they know, they think they know how much I make, how much I bid on jobs and what is in my bank account.
> 
> They don't know Jack-Diddly
> 
> ...


 The main claim I had was knowing greed for the dollar as I saw it posted, just like it is your business run it how you see fit, it is also your story tell how you like.I try to be compassionate for the contractors and do my best to make them money by my ardent efforts, but when a contractors questions why they can not have a slide rule to cut into the workers pay because times are hard(WTF) After several made post to how your post stirred their emotions, and now you are saying we do not understand how your business works,really?You are right we do not know how you run your business except by what you post, good luck to you and your business.I only wish that you can make it all work without greed getting into the mix.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...


Boy you sure need a job to keep you busy. This is the silliest litmus test I have ever seen. What did you get from this?

I guess when your "phat" you can do anything.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

John Valdes said:


> Boy you sure need a job to keep you busy. This is the silliest litmus test I have ever seen. What did you get from this?
> 
> I guess when your [phat] you can do anything.


 Ooooh word play on my name....nice move, I did not see that coming, you must be a real riot on the jobs sites. Now you can avoid addressing the issues and act like the question is beneath you instead of actually articulating a well though out rebuttal. I guess that trick never gets old.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Brother Noah said:


> ...I only wish that you can make it all work without greed getting into the mix.


The same applies to your side Noah, there is greed on both sides of the fence here.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

PhatElvis said:


> The same applies to your side Noah, there is greed on both sides of the fence here.


Outrageous!!! :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> The same applies to your side Noah, there is greed on both sides of the fence here.


"Brothers" aren't greedy... they just want to make a lot of money so they can live in new houses, buy nice cars, take vacations n such.

"Rats", however, ARE greedy... they just want to make a lot of money so they can live in new houses, buy nice cars, take vacations n such.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> _*PhatElvis you really have seem to not want to be a signatory contractor anymore. Now I read your other posts where you explained your obligation to the NEBF. I would suggest hiring a really good union busting lawyer. I know of at least two former members who went into business non union and defeated the locals protests, so it is possible. The other thing is a de-certification election. If your men would really feel better working for you with out representation then go to the NLRB and file for the de-cert vote. It's handled totally by the NLRB outside of the locals officers and is a legal viable option as a contractor. Just be prepared to fight the local where your at. *_




I made this post earlier in the thread but You never responded, so I'll post it again...........




Really you should look into a really good law firm and get out of your obligation to the local down there in Texas. Here these guy's are considered the best in the "Busting Business", 

http://www.jacksonlewis.com/

So instead of crying about it, do something about it, get the ABC to help you out, or go to the NLRB and request a de-cert vote (assuming your men want out as well).

Are you taking advantage of the CE/CW program?

Sounds like your local is backwards and is more interested in hurting you then helping you.

In my experience the contractors who are honest and play by the rules and are always on time with their obligations get treated pretty well by the local.

So the question is, what happened in the relationship that the local is hell bent on making it almost impossible for you to run your business?

Seems counter productive to me, to constantly torture a signatory contractor who is legit and plays by the rules. I don't think we're getting the whole story here.. . . ... . ..


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

PhatElvis said:


> The same applies to your side Noah, there is greed on both sides of the fence here.


 I do agree that I have seen greed from both sides but your thread started by asking why there could not be a slide rule since times are hard. You won the bid for this said job and signed a contract to that effect but now that times are hard you are asking for more allowance from the workers(in this situation how are the workers greedyto want to get paid what was in the contract?) The IBEW has the ce/cw plan that many beleive is our downfall but might benefit you in this situation(remember you get what you pay for) I do wish you luck in making it all work out.Try to keep a pure heart, please?


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> Outrageous!!! :laughing:


 You are so sweet.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

So far today I noticed two of the more esteemed members of Electrician Talk starting to make reply's to this thread and then back off...........

......What happened, cat got your tongue????:whistling2:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> So far today I noticed two of the more esteemed members of Electrician Talk starting to make reply's to this thread and then back off...........
> 
> ......What happened, cat got your tongue????:whistling2:


Thought better of it possibly, you know like pissing in the wind just not a good idea.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Thought better of it possibly, you know like pissing in the wind just not a good idea.



Good Ideas are over rated. I've learned more from making mistakes.

Just like pissing away from the wind:blink:


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

PhatElvis said:


> It always amazed me how much the people who work for me think they know, they think they know how much I make, how much I bid on jobs and what is in my bank account.
> 
> They don't know Jack-Diddly
> 
> ...


I don't know squat about what my employer is making.
I do know they are in the top 30 of ec's in the country, on the rise and doing well. I also know that EC's were NOT handing out money like candy during the boom. I only bring that up because i wonder if the EC's will remember that we helped them through tough times, and repay the gesture.
If you are bidding a job in march knowing your men will be getting a raise in june, do you not put said raise into the bid? I know the raise we did not get would definatly affect some contractors negatively more then others and affect some jobs more then others. My point is I think the bigger ec's around here(and there are quite a few) made a fast buck off of us. While others are on the verge of closing there doors. My local voted to give back.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

brian john said:


> Thought better of it possibly, you know like pissing in the wind just not a good idea.


I agree, stepping in here would be like trying to break up a gang bang.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

RUSSIAN said:


> I don't know squat about what my employer is making.
> I do know they are in the top 30 of ec's in the country, on the rise and doing well. I also know that EC's were NOT handing out money like candy during the boom. I only bring that up because i wonder if the EC's will remember that we helped them through tough times, and repay the gesture.
> If you are bidding a job in march knowing your men will be getting a raise in june, do you not put said raise into the bid? I know the raise we did not get would definatly affect some contractors negatively more then others and affect some jobs more then others. My point is I think the bigger ec's around here(and there are quite a few) made a fast buck off of us. While others are on the verge of closing there doors. My local voted to give back.


Businessmen NEVER want to actually pay the guys who did the work.:shifty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZrNDBkXIeg&feature=related


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

RUSSIAN said:


> I don't know squat about what my employer is making.
> I do know they are in the top 30 of ec's in the country, on the rise and doing well. I also know that EC's were NOT handing out money like candy during the boom. I only bring that up because i wonder if the EC's will remember that we helped them through tough times, and repay the gesture.
> If you are bidding a job in march knowing your men will be getting a raise in june, do you not put said raise into the bid? I know the raise we did not get would definatly affect some contractors negatively more then others and affect some jobs more then others. My point is I think the bigger ec's around here(and there are quite a few) made a fast buck off of us. While others are on the verge of closing there doors. My local voted to give back.


 I just resigned 595 Monday and spoke with several of your BA's as well as info on the internet states that 3 billion dollars has been appropriated for jobs in lu#595, I would say the future looks bright in that part of the bay.With the work in 180 already started and 6 has work on the agenda, if only Chevron would pay the leaf lickers to drop their suit, full employment would be in sight.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

Brother Noah said:


> I do agree that I have seen greed from both sides but your thread started by asking why there could not be a slide rule since times are hard. You won the bid for this said job and signed a contract to that effect but now that times are hard you are asking for more allowance from the workers(in this situation how are the workers greedyto want to get paid what was in the contract?) The IBEW has the ce/cw plan that many beleive is our downfall but might benefit you in this situation(remember you get what you pay for) I do wish you luck in making it all work out.Try to keep a pure heart, please?


 
I once heard to solve problems between brothers that the ideas of both must be included in any deal. In a effort to extend an olive branch to those who do not agree with my opinion of unions here is a solution....You don't have to like it or even consider it BUT Ive seen first hand how it works and would solve the issue of the sliding pay scale. I am only talking about the issue of sliding pay scale.



OK set a base pay with annual raises every year and a benefit package with a self funded retirement. You work 25 years and you can retire at full outgoing pay till you die.You get the benefit/health package that you were hired with, a cost of living increase included. The beloved union still gets to collect your dues and handle LABOR disputes. To protect workers from unsafe working conditions etc. 
No one has to fight over a contract or worry about a strike. My dads union was like that. he knew what he would max out at and as long as you did as expected you recieved regular promotions. Worked for them. Their retirement is self funded and is doing well. I'm just saying................................


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree, stepping in here would be like trying to break up a gang bang.


I was thinking more like a circle jerk and guess who the pivot man is?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> I agree, stepping in here would be like trying to break up a gang bang.





brian john said:


> I was thinking more like a circle jerk and guess who the pivot man is?



I'm glad to see you two finally seeing that it was meant to be.:brows: Nobody will judge you guy's, after all its 2010.


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## Brother Noah1 (Mar 23, 2010)

OK set a base pay with annual raises every year and a benefit package with a self funded retirement. You work 25 years and you can retire at full outgoing pay till you die.You get the benefit/health package that you were hired with, a cost of living increase included. The beloved union still gets to collect your dues and handle LABOR disputes. To protect workers from unsafe working conditions etc. 
No one has to fight over a contract or worry about a strike. My dads union was like that. he knew what he would max out at and as long as you did as expected you recieved regular promotions. Worked for them. Their retirement is self funded and is doing well. I'm just saying................................[/quote]
Okay with this thread's first post a question was asked (the way I understood it) slide rule(referred to the workers agreeing to make less money per hour,week, whatever) this was so the contractor (I guess) would have a better chance of making more money(when times are hard) 
You did not mention what union your dad was a part of but I know in the IBEW there are many different types of retirements,IRA's etc that are paid for by the contractor every hour we work so in a sense it is a self paid retirement(if we do not work the hours we do not get the retirement)
Thank for your post though it does give us a different view on the subject.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> stepping in here would be like trying to break up a gang bang.


Who has ever tried to break up a gang bang? Cmon Bob, join the PARTY!


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> guess who the pivot man is?


Must be a PLUMBER. They never invite me to their parties. Maybe I should be grateful.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

jwjrw said:


> You work 25 years and you can retire at full outgoing pay till you die.You get the benefit/health package that you were hired with, a cost of living increase included.


And this is sustainable how?? 

The younger should not be forced to work to support the old.

Don't take that to mean I disapprove of the meager checks dished out by social security to the elderly, those are a necessity to many of our old folks...

But, there is no reason why a retired person should need so much money as is doled out in union pensions. It is stealing from the present generation. There will be a backlash. You'll see, the money won't be there. Maybe I am not so Lefty after all.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> And this is sustainable how??
> 
> The younger should not be forced to work to support the old.
> 
> ...




I just fell out of my chair.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> And this is sustainable how??
> 
> Th. You'll see, the money won't be there. Maybe I am not so Lefty after all.


The money is not there now, local counties and states have not funded their retirement accounts and police, firemen and teachers along with the rest of the local government employees are go have to see cuts or we will have bankrupt governments, AKA Greece.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> And this is sustainable how??
> 
> The younger should not be forced to work to support the old.
> 
> ...


As far as who is paying for the retirement funds it is important to note that the companies agreed to pay the benefits and were supposed to put the money aside for the future retirements. If they had, the newer generation would not and should not have to pay.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

WTF?? A retired person needs to take home as much every month as I do?

For What? Their hobbies? Their house, which should be paid off? 

Their worthless grown kids who they enable?

To put their spoiled grandkids through that fifty-thousand dollar party known as college?

For the brand new F350 King Cab?

For the beach house? For the lake cabin? For 5000 gallons of diesel to fuel the Mega RV?

Sorry Pal, but you shoulda saved more money to begin with. Miller doesn't want to finance your dreams on his back, he wants all that money for ME now. 

I can see twenty thousand dollars a year as a reasonable retirement, along with a supplement for medicare, but that's it. You don't want to know my true feelings about public housing. See? You can be a member of the IBEW and feel this way, its A-Okay.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...



Yep. They bi-tch and moan about us 'scabs'- But. they don't mind eating our food.
Go figure. either they priced themselves out-or worked them self's out of a job. I'm not sure.

But I know Fire sprinklers are booming.

Time to expand folks.


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

> I can see twenty thousand dollars a year as a reasonable retirement, along with a supplement for medicare, but that's it.


Really? So what if I own my house and my property taxes are $11,000/ year? They are now and they're only going to go up. Don't tell me to move somewhere cheaper, because I don't want to end up next to some hillbilly. If 20 K is all you need, then that's all YOU should get.


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## millerdrr (Jun 26, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> And this is sustainable how??
> 
> The younger should not be forced to work to support the old.
> 
> ...


 Don't fall prey to the Dark side, Anakin...come back before it's too late.

:laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

goose134 said:


> Don't tell me to move somewhere cheaper, because I don't want to end up next to some hillbilly..


Get your WalMart Greeter shoes polished. The silver tsunami is going to wipe the IBEW pension fund clean.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> Get your WalMart Greeter shoes polished. The silver tsunami is going to wipe the IBEW pension fund clean.


Yeah I'd rather live in Chicago, than God's Country, Wild Wonderful West VA.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't know why you are all so worried about retirement.....world's gonna end in 2012 anyhow....


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

brian john said:


> Yeah I'd rather live in Chicago, than God's Country, Wild Wonderful West VA.



I'm lucky. My wife and I have property on the PA/ WV border. I do enjoy it, but I couldn't do it full time. City life isn't for everyone.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Widestance_Politics said:


> I don't know why you are all so worried about retirement.....world's gonna end in 2012 anyhow....


Fine. You can start sending me your stuff now.


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## Widestance_Politics (Jun 2, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Fine. You can start sending me your stuff now.


I'll start with the kids....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

My retirement plan has two possible routes. A) Working until I fall over dead. B) Coming up with a million dollar idea. Other than that, I'm basically screwed. My own fault.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> My retirement plan has two possible routes. A) Working until I fall over dead. B) Coming up with a million dollar idea. Other than that, I'm basically screwed. My own fault.


My plan is to retire and become a professional lottery winner.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm still hoping to meet that recently widowed hot cougar that wants to spoil me and make me her boy toy. Other than that looks like Im working till I fall over also.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I'm still hoping to meet that recently widowed hot cougar that wants to spoil me and make me her boy toy. Other than that looks like Im working till I fall over also.


Oh, women like that are certainly out there. I've met my share. They're also the "crazy cat lady" sort who would probably make you commit suicide before they ever died. That path, while certainly viable, doesn't appeal to me in the least. There's a reason why these women like that are alone.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Oh, women like that are certainly out there. I've met my share. They're also the "crazy cat lady" sort who would probably make you commit suicide before they ever died. That path, while certainly viable, doesn't appeal to me in the least. There's a reason why these women like that are alone.


 

I meant the type that married a real old one (that isnt even cold in the ground yet) and they cant wait to spend all that money. Not the cat lady type! :laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

jwjrw said:


> I meant the type that married a real old one (that isnt even cold in the ground yet) and they cant wait to spend all that money. Not the cat lady type! :laughing:


Best of luck on your future endeavors. I'm just trying to picture what your Craig's List ad is going to look like . :laughing:


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Best of luck on your future endeavors. I'm just trying to picture what your Craig's List ad is going to look like . :laughing:


 

:laughing:


I'm not going to look for her. But maybe she needs an electrician, calls me out to look at something then and she wants an electrician.:thumbup:!
I don't have the wifey and kids to complicate things!
You ask me they are all crazy, some more than others, cats or not!


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> My retirement plan has two possible routes. A) Working until I fall over dead. B) Coming up with a million dollar idea. Other than that, I'm basically screwed. My own fault.


Thats a shame. I am actually working with the Nigerian Ministry Finance Director to help him close out a few dormant bank accounts. I really cant disclose all of the details yet but, when DHL delivers the iron box I paid to have shipped here, I will me set up real nice. :thumbsup:


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## liverstos (Jun 11, 2007)

I try to just read the posts anymore, but have to weigh in with my two cents. I was union one year ago at a UC campus job, and as low man on the totem pole, I, along with 60 other craftworkers was kicked to the curb. Many of the long term employees were protected through seniority, and some actually did nothing during the day. I actually know of some who slept on the job. I ran around like a rodent working as fast as I could thinking it would make a difference. The union rep claimed complete ignorance of what was going to happen, so I immediately dropped my membership, and set out on my own as a rat contractor. So far, through people I have worked for in the past, I have managed to stay afloat. This is only due to the generosity of the customers. I try to give them breaks when I can, keep costs down, while still earning something. What I have learned through all of this is that for people like myself, we are on our own, and must not only be scavenging rats, but opportunistic vultures as well. The union system can actually be used to get competition removed from jobsites. I work hard, have a few good customers, and enjoy the work I get. I also learned that when your name is on the contract, the care put into the work increases. At any rate, I tried the union for the second, and last time, and it was not worth the effort. For those well connected, congratulations, as for the perks, ie retirement, I plan to work until I die, hopefully on the jobsite. In retrospect, it has been a good thing, the fear of the unknown is gone.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

liverstos said:


> Many of the long term employees were protected through seniority,


There's no such thing, anywhere in the IBEW, as seniority. A distinction must be made, those guys were lickin the balls of the manpower superintendint. They're probably regarded negatively everywhere else, except the contractor they solely work for.

You're only as good as your last job.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Miller, I doubt that it was an IBEW local at UC, it was a plant maintenance contract that was most likely specific to that site.

BTW Liver, I hope it works out good for you.


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## wirenutabc123 (Apr 22, 2011)

PhatElvis said:


> I put up an anonymous add in Craigslist last week for a $10 an hour material handling job, and in the next 2 days I got over 300 applicants, some of which were electricians.
> 
> So for grins (it's was only $25) I put up an add for electricians offering $18/hr with no bennies, and over the next two days I got about 200 applicants with resumes. The really surprising part is I recognized well over 20 of them as IBEW electricians and those were only the ones I recognized, there were probably a lot more I did not even know.
> 
> ...


 concider it as a boston tea party we are skilled and want to survive.but be weary of the un-skilled.I have repaired many of their projects (un-skilled) and it isnt a fun project to repair


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## wirenutabc123 (Apr 22, 2011)

jrannis said:


> Miller, I doubt that it was an IBEW local at UC, it was a plant maintenance contract that was most likely specific to that site.
> 
> BTW Liver, I hope it works out good for you.


I applied an application many times no responce but thanks for info...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

wirenutabc123 said:


> concider it as a boston tea party we are skilled and want to survive.but be weary of the un-skilled.I have repaired many of their projects (un-skilled) and it isnt a fun project to repair


 
And the work could have been completed by a union or open shop.


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