# Electric Heaters Problem



## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

What is tripping, a phase protection relay maybe? You will need to back up a few steps and look at the big picture. 
Is your xformer undersized? 
Is the wiring undersized causing voltage drop?
Is the power factor bad and a couple caps needed to move closer to unity? 
All of these are a common occurrence in industry and cause momentary voltage and current abnormalities. 
Likely a combination of all these are in play here. 
What will probably happen unfortunately is whatever is tripping will be fixed by an “adjustment” to the phase voltage/current imbalance, or ground fault, or low voltage protection relay by taking the settings out altogether, or turning a dial until it’s “fixed”.


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## Rilinnd (11 mo ago)

They are solid state relays which trips on-off contactors for heaters. The power factor is 0.9. The problem is always happening only when the blower machine 2 turns on after the blower machine 1. If all machines are off and we turn on only these two, the problem will happen again. We change the ground but the problem is not solved.


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## Ty the electric guy (Feb 16, 2014)

First step is to measure the voltage. Is it actually dropping? Or do you have a bad relay or something else going on?


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

Sounds like something for an electrician to troubleshoot....


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

It’s nigh near impossible for us to send you to the specific culprit causing the shutdown. You’re going to have to break out a good quality meter here, and I would use an analog meter myself to track what’s going on in real time. I would also use an analog tong meter because I like the way I can see changes on the scale, and not numbers on a display rolling around.
Lastly check the ground wire for current when #2 comes on, right when it trips.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Has it worked properly before?

How do you know it's because of low voltage?


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## Rilinnd (11 mo ago)

Ty the electric guy said:


> First step is to measure the voltage. Is it actually dropping? Or do you have a bad relay or something else going on?


I think relay is in good condition because the machine works, it only have to start after the blower machine 2 is working.


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## Rilinnd (11 mo ago)

micromind said:


> Has it worked properly before?
> 
> How do you know it's because of low voltage?


It still works properly. It only has to start after the other machine is working otherwise the problem will occur.

Because we analyzed with power quality and also machine display shows that the problem is happening because of voltage dips (13 in total, 2 of them consecutive voltage dips).


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## Rilinnd (11 mo ago)

460 Delta said:


> It’s nigh near impossible for us to send you to the specific culprit causing the shutdown. You’re going to have to break out a good quality meter here, and I would use an analog meter myself to track what’s going on in real time. I would also use an analog tong meter because I like the way I can see changes on the scale, and not numbers on a display rolling around.
> Lastly check the ground wire for current when #2 comes on, right when it trips.


We checked in real time, we saw some voltage dip. Also measure the current through ground wire but no current flow.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

So @Rilinnd , you're just not going to fill out your profile so we know you're a competent electrician? Didn't you read the terms of service? It's a big deal around here you know.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> So @Rilinnd , you're just not going to fill out your profile so we know you're a competent electrician? Didn't you read the terms of service? It's a big deal around here you know.


I’m starting to wonder. Changing the ground would not be my first step


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Possibly a bad heater element, but breaker not catching it? It shorts, voltage dips, cuts out on thermal. You reset the other machine and the first is still out on thermal. Maybe it requires a cycle of power off then on again to reset the thermal after it’s cooled and that’s why it works fine after your start 2 then 1 procedure…. There’s just so much we can’t see from the information given!!!


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> I’m starting to wonder. Changing the ground would not be my first step


Not following the terms of service gets people banned from here...or so I've heard.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

That’s


yankeejoe1141 said:


> Not following the terms of service gets people banned from here...or so I've heard.


its a Kosovo flag 🇽🇰 he may not need a license, looking quickly on Google, people hiring jman there want to see a US or UK license. If there’s no license requirements, how do you differentiate do-it-yourself from do-it-forsomeoneelse


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> That’s
> 
> its a Kosovo flag 🇽🇰 he may not need a license, looking quickly on Google, people hiring jman there want to see a US or UK license. If there’s no license requirements, how do you differentiate do-it-yourself from do-it-forsomeoneelse


That's pretty good, I couldn't identify the Kosovo flag. I have no idea about the licensing requirements though but he still should state his electrical qualifications. If he could type English that well then he should be able to read it and know what is required of him to participate.

But I guess it's up to the mods to decide, I just reported it as they asked for, interested to see how it gets handled now.

And I will say a lot of jokes and ball breaking would be funnier.

How to deal with DIY threads


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

yankeejoe1141 said:


> That's pretty good, I couldn't identify the Kosovo flag. I have no idea about the licensing requirements though but he still should state his electrical qualifications. If he could type English that well then he should be able to read it and know what is required of him to participate.
> 
> But I guess it's up to the mods to decide, I just reported it as they asked for, interested to see how it gets handled now.
> 
> ...


Full disclosure, I used Google reverse image search…


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

matt1124 said:


> Full disclosure, I used Google reverse image search…


Nice!!


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Does the heater and the blower both come on at the same time?

Has anything been replaced recently that may be a little different?

Are the wires sized properly?
Check for loose wire?
Bearings in blower good? Perhaps bearings are slightly seized and the first start breaks them loose. How long between the time the blower is shutdown and restart?


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

matt1124 said:


> If there’s no license requirements, how do you differentiate do-it-yourself from do-it-forsomeoneelse


Having a license has no bearing on skill level. Until I went across state borders to WVa, I was unlicensed as Ohio doesn’t license electricians. There’s a certain member from NW Nevada who is pretty good on motors and controls who’s pretty open about having no license.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> Having a license has no bearing on skill level. Until I went across state borders to WVa, I was unlicensed as Ohio doesn’t license electricians. There’s a certain member from NW Nevada who is pretty good on motors and controls who’s pretty open about having no license.


That’s why I never typed the word license.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

460 Delta said:


> Having a license has no bearing on skill level. Until I went across state borders to WVa, I was unlicensed as Ohio doesn’t license electricians. There’s a certain member from NW Nevada who is pretty good on motors and controls who’s pretty open about having no license.


I've been working electrical maintenance in production facilities since 1991.
Typically a license is not required but often preferred by employers.

As long as you are not out working in the public domain licensing is not required.

I have been licensed since 1977 and know several electricians, that are not licensed, that can run circles around the average licensed electrician


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

For all we know he’s the production supervisor and doesn’t like what his technicians told him so he came here. Until he states his electrical qualifications we just don’t know.


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## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Rilinnd said:


> I am currently working in a food factory and we have a problem with the heaters of a blower machine. When the line 1 of production is working, the blower machine 1 works perfectly until the other blower machine 2 of line 2 turns on. At that moment the heaters of blower machine 1 turn off due to voltage dip. We reset them and after that they will work normally. Other scenario, when we start firstly with line 2 of production and after that with line 1 everything goes well. The problem occurs only when the blower machine 2 starts while blower machine 1 is working.
> 
> 
> 
> We raised our supply voltage, we didn't have success, created a new grounding for that machine but the problem still happened.


@Rilinnd please fill out your profile including and especially your Electrical Trade.
It's easy - just click your Avatar and go to Account Settings and Electrical Trade.
Thanks very much.


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

Well I shouldn’t have said license I guess…. How do you guys in states with no license show who is qualified and who isn’t, to say a potential customer? I think the professional looking organized truck with or without a license number says a lot when you pull up to a job, but what about other things like permits and whatnot?


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

matt1124 said:


> Well I shouldn’t have said license I guess…. How do you guys in states with no license show who is qualified and who isn’t, to say a potential customer? I think the professional looking organized truck with or without a license number says a lot when you pull up to a job, but what about other things like permits and whatnot?


Texas only requires a license if you are doing electrical work in the public domain, such as a contractor doing residential or commercial.

There are license requirements for other types of electrical work but there are a lot of exemptions to the rules.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Having a license has no bearing on skill level. Until I went across state borders to WVa, I was unlicensed as Ohio doesn’t license electricians. There’s a certain member from NW Nevada who is pretty good on motors and controls who’s pretty open about having no license.


Who, meeeee..........lol. 

Yes, I am indeed quite vocal about my lack of a license and my overall disdain for licensing in general.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

matt1124 said:


> Well I shouldn’t have said license I guess…. How do you guys in states with no license show who is qualified and who isn’t, to say a potential customer? I think the professional looking organized truck with or without a license number says a lot when you pull up to a job, but what about other things like permits and whatnot?


How many customers will ask to see a license? I think that the vast majority of them simply trust that the person the company sends out knows what he is doing.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

micromind said:


> Who, meeeee..........lol.
> 
> Yes, I am indeed quite vocal about my lack of a license and my overall disdain for licensing in general.


I’m unable to confirm or deny implicating you as an unlicensed motor and control electrician.


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## yankeejoe1141 (Jul 26, 2013)

micromind said:


> Who, meeeee..........lol.
> 
> Yes, I am indeed quite vocal about my lack of a license and my overall disdain for licensing in general.


I really don’t see a problem with it. In my state, licenses are issued by consumer protection, not department of labor. That tells me that they intend licenses to keep consumers from being duped by unqualified people. Not to ensure qualified people have a license.


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## Rilinnd (11 mo ago)

wiz1997 said:


> Does the heater and the blower both come on at the same time?
> 
> Has anything been replaced recently that may be a little different?
> 
> ...


The wires are sized properly, we checked for loose wire and everything is good.
The blower machine is ERGON 04 type. The machine (Ergon) turns off only in one situation, when the other machine turns on while this machine is working. In all other scenarios the machine works without interruption.


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## Kinja (Sep 26, 2020)

From your initial post it sounds like the 2nd machine heaters/blower have too much load/surge load when turned on.

I've done heating systems with cartridge heaters and ssrs to directly drive them. When I program the plc to turn on the heaters all of the ssrs are staged with time in between turn ons. This way you never have 2 heaters coming on at the same time.

If your measured load when all heaters/blower from both units are on is not over capacity, there may be a way to change the way they turn on so it's not full heat/no heat control.

If you can't separate the startups on the 2nd machine heaters/blower because it is one contactor for everything, it might be time to change that.


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