# Eaton Worker death



## Ryancb596 (Jul 12, 2011)

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/region/medical-examiner-at-carnegie-mellon-for-report-of-electrocution-671470/

Not really sure how this could have happened. He was working for an outside contractor which is the same one that I work for. Reportedly he said he didn`t need a helper and was left alone working on some gear.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

I wonder about the details... That's where the devil hides.

Pete


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

i guess well not know until the investigation is closed.

my concern is why was he working alone?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

gnuuser said:


> ...My concern is why was he working alone?


 Realistically, how many guys don't? 

In my experience, it's rare for places to even have a two-man rule, and it's rarer that they enforce it strictly.


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## knowledge29 (Nov 6, 2010)

I have had EATON guys on my jobs. They don't always follow NFPA70E regs. With that being said, I personally assist them when they are on my jobs. Even the ones that have been pissed off at me for doing so. I don't ever leave a man working alone when in energized gear.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

knowledge29 said:


> I have had EATON guys on my jobs. They don't always follow NFPA70E regs. With that being said, I personally assist them when they are on my jobs. Even the ones that have been pissed off at me for doing so.
> _*I don't ever leave a man working alone when in energized gear*_.


Excellent policy


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

A better policy is not to work on live gear

Having two men does not prevent accidents it only leaves someone to call 911.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> A better policy is not to work on live gear
> 
> Having two men does not prevent accidents it only leaves someone to call 911.


Unless its a really big boom then you need at least a third person.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

I've worked with Eaton company guys and they all seemed very sharp and played by the rules, but it doesn't surprise me there are guys that don't.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

Big John said:


> Realistically, how many guys don't?
> 
> In my experience, it's rare for places to even have a two-man rule, and it's rarer that they enforce it strictly.


I work alone everyday. All of the service guys in the company do, we never have an apprentice. If we absolutely need help then 2 service guys will work together, but that is rare.


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## knowledge29 (Nov 6, 2010)

There is times live work is only way. policy is no hot work,However, we have done critical care jobs where I have had to suit up and work hot. Rare, yet must be done at times.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

knowledge29;915022[B said:


> ]There is times live work is only way.[/B] policy is no hot work,However, we have done critical care jobs where I have had to suit up and work hot. Rare, yet must be done at times.


:no::no::no:the only thing that gets in the way of de energized gear is one thing, Money!


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

knowledge29 said:


> There is times live work is only way. policy is no hot work,However, we have done critical care jobs where I have had to suit up and work hot. Rare, yet must be done at times.


There is nothing that cannot be shut down, it usally comes down to money.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

knowledge29 said:


> There is times live work is only way. policy is no hot work,However, we have done critical care jobs where I have had to suit up and work hot. Rare, yet must be done at times.


The problem with working live is not the danger to the mechanic. There are lots of electricians out there, we are easily replaced.

The problem is when something does go wrong, the destructive force of the electricity usually means you are shut down unexpectedly and usually for a period of time (sometimes long enough for your local constabulary to determine the cause of the accident and the insurance companies to come in and access the damage).

Anything that can't get shut down, certainly does not want to be unexpectedly shut down in a flash of light and boom noise.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Then design switchgear with that in _mind_ eejack

I get that, you get that, probably most ET posters get that....

~CS~


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

No details,but at 59 you would get relaxed around your work.


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## wy2ak (Apr 28, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I've worked with Eaton company guys and they all seemed very sharp and played by the rules, but it doesn't surprise me there are guys that don't.


Agree 100% Eaton guys IMHO have always conducted their work in a safe manner.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Ryancb596 said:


> http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/region/medical-examiner-at-carnegie-mellon-for-report-of-electrocution-671470/
> 
> Not really sure how this could have happened. He was working for an outside contractor which is the same one that I work for. Reportedly he said he didn`t need a helper and was left alone working on some gear.


It said "possible" electrocution. maybe heart attach, stroke or whatever.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The two man rule always puzzled me. Never really had it explained what the second guy is supposed to do. Be traumatized for life? It's not like the presence of a second man suddenly makes the first guy conduct his work in a much safer or careful manner.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> The two man rule always puzzled me. Never really had it explained what the second guy is supposed to do. Be traumatized for life? It's not like the presence of a second man suddenly makes the first guy conduct his work in a much safer or careful manner.


Exactly my point in post 7, I don't see how a second, or third, or forth person lessens the chance of an accident.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

eejack said:


> Anything that can't get shut down, certainly does not want to be unexpectedly shut down in a flash of light and boom noise.


And I don't know how that fact escapes the people who say _'Hot work must be done, we cannot shut it down.'_


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> Then design switchgear with that in _mind_ eejack


Switch gear is built for the job and they will build anything you want into it as long as someone will pay for it. Now .... who is stepping up to the plate to pay for it? Almost no one.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> And I don't know how that fact escapes the people who say 'Hot work must be done, we cannot shut it down.'


I agree that everything can be shutdown.

Basically all of the hot work that I do is for my own convenience. If I had to shut down every live panel I work in I would spend more time working off hours shutdowns than not. 

If I feel the job can be done safely I just do it, if I feel it's too risky then it gets shutdown. A qualified electrician should know the difference.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Switch gear is built for the job and they will build anything you want into it as long as someone will pay for it. Now .... who is stepping up to the plate to pay for it? Almost no one.


I've argued it with EE's and Archy's BBQ, they all consider me a lesser creature, so i'm usually resigned to picking lice outta helpers hair @ their job meets....
~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I agree that everything can be shutdown.
> 
> Basically all of the hot work that I do is for my own convenience. If I had to shut down every live panel I work in I would spend more time working off hours shutdowns than not.
> 
> If I feel the job can be done safely I just do it, if I feel it's too risky then it gets shutdown. A qualified electrician should know the difference.


yes.....

there's a distinction between , say....making a new circuit into a 100A resi service, and dangling above 4000amps of switch gear....~CS~


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> yes.....
> 
> there's a distinction between , say....making a new circuit into a 100A resi service, and dangling above 4000amps of switch gear....~CS~


That's my point. There are jobs that can be done safely and jobs that can't. We as professionals should know the difference. However there are some that will not admit this and put all hot work in the same category.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> That's my point. There are jobs that can be done safely and jobs that can't. We as professionals should know the difference. However there are some that will not admit this and put all hot work in the same category.


Hmm.

The problem with that thought is that OSHA and 70E really don't make that distinction and if you get caught you can cost the company you work for a boatload of money.

Now do I sometimes violate the rules? Yes.

Do I try to hide that rule breaking with a bunch of BS about me being qualified to do so? Nope.

It is pure laziness and accidents can happen to anyone even working in just a 120 volt outlet box.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Hmm.
> 
> The problem with that thought is that OSHA and 70E really don't make that distinction and if you get caught you can cost the company you work for a boatload of money.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying. 

At the risk of sounding like an a-hole, I could care less about osha or 70e. Sorry, just being honest.

Over the last couple of years I have been slowly, but stubbornly, coming around. I certainly shutdown things now that I wouldn't have even thought twice about doing hot even a year or two ago. My risk evaluation has definitely evolved and continues to. 
I know I'm stubborn, and believe me I read things that guys like you or Zog say and it makes me think a little. 

However, I can honestly say that I will never be 100% 70e compliant. I will not inconvenience myself by scheduling an off hours shutdown to add a 20 amp circuit to a 120/208 panel. 

Also, I work in live panels daily and have only put the suit on a handful of times. I just don't see the need. I think we got the suits 4 or 5 years ago and up until about a year ago it was still in the sealed plastic bag it came in. 

It's hard to break old habits. It's hard to make yourself believe that a task you've done hundreds, maybe thousands of times before all of a sudden is a huge concern.


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Why a second man?

To sound the alarm, to call for help, to notice something is wrong sooner than, say, when "Joe" fails to stop by the office for his check next Friday.

He's also there to cover your back when you're deep in the attic or crawl space, to make other folks aware you're there.

There's also the odd chance that the second guy will save the life of the first guy. It may sound dramatic, but I'm already seen that happen on one 'little, 120v' job.

Let's look at a few other accidents / mishaps where a second person would have made a difference:

- The other night I had a stack of subflooring fall over. It knocked me down and pinned me in place. Nothing was broken, and I was able to wriggle free. But for a few inches ... imagine had my leg been broken, had my shoulder been pierced by that pipe stub-up, had the weight kept me from breathing. 

- A carpenter remodeling his house fed his hand and forearm to the table saw. Ouch. Looking at the ruined limb after it had 'healed,' I'm amazed he was able to get himself to the hospital.

- I've had folks secure buildings while I was in the crawl space or on the roof.

- Let's not forget the various ladder 'oops moments' we've had. Whether you fall as you transition to the roof (and be injured), or you're left stranded on the roof, a second person on site can make a huge difference.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like an a-hole, I could care less about osha or 70e. Sorry, just being honest.
> 
> ...


Man you sound just like me.....:laughing:

I insist my help shut down a panel to make into it, and they retort _'but you just did it live'!......_


~CS~


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## di11igaf (Jan 1, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> At the risk of sounding like an a-hole, I could care less about osha or 70e. Sorry, just being honest.
> 
> ...


If you work by yourself, that's your choice and you doing that would not directly hurt anyone else. If you have employees and expect them to do the same thing, or frown upon someone who doesn't even want to work in a 'measly 120/208' panel hot, then that's not right. I work with a guy who had his face burned, BAD, in a 120/208 panel. 3rd degree burns to face and neck, to this day he swears he shorted nothing and him just moving a few things around shorted something that was already close.
I know I work things hot sometimes also strictly because of convenience, but if someone who works for me wants the suit for a hot receptacle, put it on-i will think no lesser of him.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

EBFD6, I get where you're coming from, and applaud your candor. I think what you say is probably true for most of us.

I honestly believe electricians can be trained to safely do hot work routinely. But as soon as I hear people start on with the usual nonsense about "Just don't be afraid" and "If you were a _real _electrician..." I immediately think they're exactly the type of yokel who shouldn't be allowed to change an lightbulb while it's hot.

My big thing about hot work is just that people need to be realistic about their limitations. You need to approach it assuming you will make the worst mistake possible, and then carefully consider every consequence, then decide if it's worth it. Anything less is plain reckless.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

di11igaf said:


> If you work by yourself, that's your choice and you doing that would not directly hurt anyone else. If you have employees and expect them to do the same thing, or frown upon someone who doesn't even want to work in a 'measly 120/208' panel hot, then that's not right. I work with a guy who had his face burned, BAD, in a 120/208 panel. 3rd degree burns to face and neck, to this day he swears he shorted nothing and him just moving a few things around shorted something that was already close.
> I know I work things hot sometimes also strictly because of convenience, but if someone who works for me wants the suit for a hot receptacle, put it on-i will think no lesser of him.


Working alone isn't really my choice per say, it's just the way things work at my company. All service guys work alone. If I need a second guy for some reason then another service guy will come help me. I don't have employees, I am an employee.

I do not force others to do anything that I do, however the other service guys feel the same way I do and we all pretty much work the same way so it's not really an issue. In the once in a blue moon that I actually do have an apprentice with me (happens maybe once or twice a year) they are never allowed to do any "hot work".

The company has a no hot work policy so by working hot I am definitely breaking the rules and I wouldn't put someone else in the position to be pressured to do that against their will.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Amish Electrician said:


> Why a second man?
> 
> To sound the alarm, to call for help, to notice something is wrong sooner than, say, when "Joe" fails to stop by the office for his check next Friday.
> 
> ...


I agree 100 % an assistant with a fiberglass rod or dry board can easily lever you off of live contacts and or throw the switches off if needed 
all this increases your chance for survival.
heres another example 
2 years ago an elecrician was killed at one of our glass plants.
she was working on the electric boost electrodes on the tank.
these electrodes are only running 120 volts but at nearly 700 amps
if she had been working with an assistant she would be alive today.
the irony of it is that the e-stop switch was less than a foot away from her


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## Roadhouse (Oct 16, 2010)

OSHA is having a field day, I'm sure.


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## Legion (Oct 19, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> The two man rule always puzzled me. Never really had it explained what the second guy is supposed to do. Be traumatized for life? It's not like the presence of a second man suddenly makes the first guy conduct his work in a much safer or careful manner.


I always thought it was a response to regulatory requirements of best practices and rapid medical response in the event of something unfortunate happening.
While a second set of eyes might not ensure the first employee works safer. A second set of trained eyes might pick up a safety concern missed by the first and can function as a procedure verification service.


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Unofficial word from the hall is The Rep was measuring bus bar to add another switch cubicle when his tape measure got away from him and caused a fault. 4160.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Imagine you are working on a 120/208v panel. You decide to work live. You are only adding one circuit. 

You tighten up your bond lug. You carefully snake the neutral in and tighten it up. You check your new breaker and all seems well. You double check your breaker and tighten her up once more. You were careful and mindful. You did everything right.
Well done. Another successful live install. 

You grab the panel cover and start to line it up. You press the cover against the panel to hold it while you load up the 1st panel screw. What you didn't know, or could never have known is that the insulation sheet between the back of the buss bars and the cabinet had worn through in one spot. Damn older panels. As you pressed that door to the cabinet there is a loud boom and bright flash. You are knocked back a bit, and you can't see. Your ears are ringing and you are disoriented. You try to get your bearings and find the door to call for some help. You don't know it yet, but the panel cover door was closed and shielded you from the burn. You have minor burns in areas the door missed. You will find that your trusty Robertson is now embedded into the cinder block wall behind you, right up to the handle. 

Your vision returns, as does your hearing. You were lucky. It could have been worse. You will never know exactly what is waiting for you. Working live is never truly safe.


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## Rochsolid (Aug 9, 2012)

We have a scheduled shut down this Tuesday morning from 4-6am at a hospital. We're shutting down the while X-ray department to add in a new feed to an X-ray room renovation. We're currently doing. We spoke with hospital staff, maintenance staff and GC. We notified them that we would NOT do it live. They agreed. We know have a plan in place. We do 1 shutdown so we can cut in our 2" EMT and pull in out cables. While we are doing this, the hospital maintenance electricians are doing service work in some of their breakers. We now have a date and time for the shutdown. We have a outline on how quickly we can get the equipment back up and running in the case of an emergency. We were not pressured at all to work live, they understood our concerns, and we worked together to make it safe not only for us but the maintenance staff and any patients as well. It can be done. Sometimes it's not always about the money, some places actually do care about our safety.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

wooden fold out ruler rule instead of a metal tape measure inside sw gear:no:


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Rochsolid said:


> We have a scheduled shut down this Tuesday morning from 4-6am at a hospital. We're shutting down the while X-ray department to add in a new feed to an X-ray room renovation. We're currently doing. We spoke with hospital staff, maintenance staff and GC. We notified them that we would NOT do it live. They agreed. We know have a plan in place. We do 1 shutdown so we can cut in our 2" EMT and pull in out cables. While we are doing this, the hospital maintenance electricians are doing service work in some of their breakers. We now have a date and time for the shutdown. We have a outline on how quickly we can get the equipment back up and running in the case of an emergency. We were not pressured at all to work live, they understood our concerns, and we worked together to make it safe not only for us but the maintenance staff and any patients as well. It can be done. Sometimes it's not always about the money, some places actually do care about our safety.












I'm working a shutdown now. My only issue with it is I'm solo. I don't like flying solo on shutdowns


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

bobelectric said:


> Unofficial word from the hall is The Rep was measuring bus bar to add another switch cubicle when his tape measure got away from him and caused a fault. 4160.


That would be a bad burn for sure.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> View attachment 23810
> 
> 
> I'm working a shutdown now. My only issue with it is I'm solo. I don't like flying solo on shutdowns


me either


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

gnuuser said:


> I agree 100 % an assistant with a fiberglass rod or dry board can easily lever you off of live contacts and or throw the switches off if needed
> all this increases your chance for survival.


I think that is ridiculous. 

A better plan is not to work near live parts with exposed skin.




> heres another example
> 2 years ago an elecrician was killed at one of our glass plants.
> she was working on the electric boost electrodes on the tank.
> these electrodes are only running 120 volts but at nearly 700 amps
> ...


There is no way to say if she would have been saved or not, why was she working unsafely?


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

gnuuser said:


> I agree 100 % an assistant with a fiberglass rod or dry board can easily lever you off of live contacts and or throw the switches off if needed
> all this increases your chance for survival.


That theory is a myth. AC causes your muscles to contract, if the palm side of your hand makes contact with an energized part your contracting hand will clench down with extreme force on the conductor, that is how you get to the point where you need someone to release you. All hitting them or prying with a stick/board is going to do is cause more injury. 

Rescue hooks are available for this specific purpose so you can pull them off the part, but those only rarely effective, by far the #1 action to take is to de-energize the system. The safety person needs to know exactly how to do this as part of the pre-job safety brief and should be standing by the device to de-energize. 

Any decent safety program should teach this, and it will be a specific requirement for the "Qualified person" training in the 2015 NFPA 70E.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

BBQ said:


> I think that is ridiculous.
> 
> A better plan is not to work near live parts with exposed skin.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 
we don't know why she was working alone or why she was working on the system live
the boost system has main and redundant monitoring for current and voltage


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> I'm working a shutdown now. My only issue with it is I'm solo. I don't like flying solo on shutdowns


 We call that the pressure cooker. Only thing better is when there are a ton of people standing around watching you, but none of them have the training to help you.


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