# Pools, spas, and hot tubs for dummies. art. 680



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

For those of you who wire pools, spas and hot tubs, this would be a good thread to share your knowledge on the requirements for bonding, all the codes, installation methods, and common misconceptions.

If it has to do with art. 680, help shed some light on everything. From front to back, top to bottom, start to finish ---> Tell it all!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

bond the water.....

~CS~


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

Make sure you pull a green wire with the other conductors.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

if its metal anywhere near the pool, bond it


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Inspector made me bond a speaker grill in the ceiling over the hot tub


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

ce2two said:


> Make sure you pull a green wire with the other conductors.



I have never seen green wire for electricians. Where do you get it? :jester:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Service Call said:


> Inspector made me bond a speaker grill in the ceiling over the hot tub


If it is within 5' of the tub then all metal parts must be bonded.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Remember there is a difference between a hot tub and a hydomassage tub. Hydromassage tubs can be found in article 680 part V11 starting at 680.70

Hot tubs is in Article 680 part IV starting at 680.40

Hot Tubs for a residence allows us to use chapter 3 wiring - nm or any wiring method acceptable in Chapter- for the indoor section of wiring to the tub. There can be a catch to this as some tubs require a full size equipment grounding conductor run with the conductors. NM cable has a reduced equipment grounding conductor based on T. 250.122 which would not satisfy some manufacturers instructions.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

If this thread turn out well we can make it a sticky perhaps


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I keep forgetting with section affects the other sections in 680......~CS~


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Remember there is a difference between a hot tub and a hydomassage tub. Hydromassage tubs can be found in article 680 part V11 starting at 680.70
> 
> Hot tubs is in Article 680 part IV starting at 680.40
> 
> Hot Tubs for a residence allows us to use chapter 3 wiring - nm or any wiring method acceptable in Chapter- for the indoor section of wiring to the tub. There can be a catch to this as some tubs require a full size equipment grounding conductor run with the conductors. NM cable has a reduced equipment grounding conductor based on T. 250.122 which would not satisfy some manufacturers instructions.



On after the fact wiring, most of the wiring is run on an outdoor surface to the disconnect. In my opinion that requires THWN, so now it's conduit (smurf) in attic, then PVC and individual conductors. Plus if it goes to a sub panel, it needs to be an insulated EGC. 


Sent from my house using 2 cans and a string!


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I keep forgetting with section affects the other sections in 680......~CS~


Most of the section will refer to some part of Part II. Part II is for permanent pools. For example a hot tub installed outdoors will reference 680.26 for the equipotential bonding otherwise Part II may have nothing to do with some sections other than a reference about one thing or another.

I see it as Part II having all the requirements but the other section just draw from it for this or that so they don't have to rewrite the info.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

all the wire i get around here does not have reduced neutral. i thought they quit making it that way years ago. (nm)


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have never seen green wire for electricians. Where do you get it? :jester:


 It's called organic copper. Easy sell to the granola crowd. I can sell you some. Starts at ten bucks a foot. The label even says it's certified green.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

I've posted pictures on here before of some pools that I have done. I don't want to appear to boast so I won't post them again unless someone asks.

But a few things I see people get confused over:

Just because a pool is above ground doesn't mean it necessarily gets different rules. If an above ground pool holds 42" or more of water it is treated the same as a permanent pool. With a few exceptions such as lights because most won't have any.

You don't have to tie the equipotential bond to the service grounding system. Some think you have to run it back to the panel or subpanel. This is not true.

You do not drive a ground rod for the EP bond.

Older codes had you make a grid consisting of 12"x12" squares of wire if there was no rebar under or around the pool, or if the rebar was coated and not conductive. Now you can just run a #8 around the pool, 18-24" & 4-6" below grade (or subgrade) from the inside edge, if there is no rebar to bond to. You do still have to run a jumper to any metal on/in the pool. You have to attach to the metal supports in 4 places, equally spaced around the pool. The bond also has to run back to the equipment and land on the bonding lugs. Usually any piece of equipment for a pool that requires bonding will have a lug on it, such as pump motors.
People don't think about other items such as timers but they need bonding to if they have a metal case. Also control boxes for salt cell generators have to be bonded and usually have a lug.

Bonding the water has several options. Some think you have to buy something special to do this but that is not always true. Anything metal in the pool that has a surface area of 9 in.² can serve this purpose. This could be a ladder, handrail, etc. Of course you still have to run a jumper from it down to the perimeter bond.
The other options include a device placed in the skimmer that is made for this & an inline device in the plumbing that has an exterior lug on it.

Another confusing thing is on wet niche lights. If the niche is metal there are two kinds of bonding, the EP bond and a EGC bonding jumper.
For the EP bond:
A jumper is run from the EP bond (rebar usually) to the OUTSIDE of the niche at the provided lug.

For the EGC bond (which has nothing to do with the EP bond):
If the conduit used is PVC, then you have to run a separate insulated #8 EGC in the conduit with the light cord. It is landed INSIDE the niche on a provided lug. The termination has to be covered with a potting compound to prevent corrosion from the pool water.
The conduit has to run back to a JB and not directly to a panel. The JB must have a grounding bar in it to land the EGC from the panel and the #8 from the light.
You can look in 680 for the other requirements for the JB.

These are just a few things that come to mind that may be confusing or some just do not know. Some of these are just for in-ground pools and some also apply to above ground pools.
This is just off the top of my head and I'm sure I've left things off.

Don't feel bad if you don't know anything about pools (680). You wouldn't know if you've never done one and took the time to read 680. I know I don't spend much time on areas of the code that I don't expect to need on jobs.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

When is a ground rod required? I was under the impression you had to drive one next to the pump of an above ground pool, but somebody in another thread said that wasn't the case. 

How about when you set a sub panel next to the pool equipment? Is a ground rod needed then?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> I've posted pictures on here before of some pools that I have done. I don't want to appear to boast so I won't post them again unless someone asks.


Yes please! :thumbup:


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> When is a ground rod required? I was under the impression you had to drive one next to the pump of an above ground pool, but somebody in another thread said that wasn't the case.
> 
> How about when you set a sub panel next to the pool equipment? Is a ground rod needed then?


The ground rod would just be for any panel that requires a GES such as a subpanel on a detached building. Has nothing to do with it being a pool.

The above ground pool would be the same as an in-ground, if it is 42" or more in depth. You would run the perimeter bond around it, attach to the 4 points, then to the pump motor.


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## ce2two (Oct 4, 2008)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have never seen green wire for electricians. Where do you get it? :jester:


Ground wires are either bare or green :laughingr a conductor taped green.


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## Big Pickles (Oct 25, 2014)

I use this to explain to customers why I have to charge more then $200 to wire their pool.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok, here are a few of a recent pool I did. This is a residential pool, I can post more later of a commercial pool. I don't know how well you can see the bond wire but maybe you can see well enough.

Bond wire around the pool before concrete was poured.



Jumper run to a metal support



Jumper for ladder. The mount wasn't placed yet so the jumper is just draped over the side until it could be connected.



An in-line plumbing fitting for bonding the water & continuing on to the pump.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> Ok, here are a few of a recent pool I did. This is a residential pool, I can post more later of a commercial pool. I don't know how well you can see the bond wire but maybe you can see well enough.
> 
> Bond wire around the pool before concrete was poured.
> 
> ...


Awesome!!! Dude, keep those pics coming, this is the thread to show them all! :thumbup:


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

papaotis said:


> all the wire i get around here does not have reduced neutral. i thought they quit making it that way years ago. (nm)


Yes for sizes 14-10 but 8/3 nm has a #10 equipment grounding conductor, etc


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Bill I have an issue with the equipotential bonding on that pool. The code requires the bonding to be 4-6" below subgrade. The stone is, IMO the subgrade so even if you have 4" of concrete it is not below subgrade


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Bill I have an issue with the equipotential bonding on that pool. The code requires the bonding to be 4-6" below subgrade. The stone is, IMO the subgrade so even if you have 4" of concrete it is not below subgrade


I brought that issue up with both the installer and the inspector. The inspector wants it this way and said he just wants it below the concrete.
I didn't argue since I see no safety concern and less work on me!:thumbup:
Well at least not having to either wait on the gravel guy or have to come back.
Inspectors have always wanted the bond just under pavers and I guess they are applying that to concrete.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> I brought that issue up with both the installer and the inspector. The inspector wants it this way and said he just wants it below the concrete.


The idea behind the equipotential bonding is not so much to bond the concrete but to get stray voltage in the earth. If the bond is not directly in contact with the earth I am not sure it will do as good a job-- but what do I know.

I do know that I would follow the code wording on this and cover my ass.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The idea behind the equipotential bonding is not so much to bond the concrete but to get stray voltage in the earth. If the bond is not directly in contact with the earth I am not sure it will do as good a job-- but what do I know.
> 
> I do know that I would follow the code wording on this and cover my ass.


I understand exactly what the bond is for. That's why I questioned the inspector & installer. I think there are a couple of things he was concerned with.
1). If the bond was put down before the gravel there is not much besides sand below that. The equipment bringing in the gravel would run over the bond, possibly breaking it or dragging it out of place. Where as a direct pour of concrete on the wire wouldn't move or damage it.

2). The mounts for the ladders and/or rails need to be bonded and they sit right on top of the gravel before the concrete. It would be hard to keep a jumper in place to the mounts with equipment running over the wire.

Those are not my thoughts, just what was told me.
The biggest factor is I don't usually get called in until they are ready for concrete.

Here is some pics of the mounts I'm talking about. With these you just run the bond wire through the lay-in clamps, no need for a jumper.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Here are a few pics of a pool with 120V lights in a wet niche.

Outside the niche showing the bond wire going to the lug. This bond wire is not the same as the required jumper inside the niche.



Inside the niche showing the light cord along with the insulated #8 EGC (jumper). The EGC is landed on a lug/screw that comes with the niche.



The EGC (jumper) termination that is covered with the required potting compound.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

That potting compound is often neglected out here, seems the pool installers often "help" us electricians by installing the light and conduit , filling the pool with water and have us arrive last to wire it. I have had a few over the years where i know theres no compound even one where no #8 insulated was installed leaving me to shove a #8 down the conduit with 4" on the end stripped hoping it makes contact with something.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> For those of you who wire pools, spas and hot tubs, this would be a good thread to share your knowledge on the requirements for bonding, all the codes, installation methods, and common misconceptions. If it has to do with art. 680, help shed some light on everything. From front to back, top to bottom, start to finish ---> Tell it all!


 If reading article 680 doesn't seem clear as mud , in a big fan of pictures for things like this . I recommend an NEC handbook or anything from mike holt. I just did an above ground and I was sure there was more to it than there was ,lol ! Not rocket science here , just electrical work .


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## Oakey (Feb 16, 2009)

In this topic, say us or a pool guy replaces a hard wired 220 pump on an existing pool should the breaker be changed to a gfi at the same time?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Oakey said:


> In this topic, say us or a pool guy replaces a hard wired 220 pump on an existing pool should the breaker be changed to a gfi at the same time?


 a hard wired 240 volt pool pump ? Never seen such an animal ,but I assume they exist ? But to answer your question , I'd say yes . Gfci protection for pools is something inspectors don't take lightly . I'd recommend one just for piece of mind alone . If you want to get technical and go back to the code cycle that was in place when the pool was installed , and follow those rules , you'd probably be covered as well , but not worth the liability to me .


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

drumnut08 said:


> a hard wired 240 volt pool pump ? Never seen such an animal


That is the only way I have seen them. Every in ground pool I have done was direct wired and 240V

Yes, IMO the pump when replaced should get a gfci breaker installed. The code is not specific on this.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> That is the only way I have seen them. Every in ground pool I have done was direct wired and 240V Yes, IMO the pump when replaced should get a gfci breaker installed. The code is not specific on this.


 I was thinking above ground . Just did one and the owner tried to get a 240 bolt pump and the pool contractor told him they weren't available for above ground ? I told him that sounded like a false statement to me , but if he got one it would need to be on a 2 pole gfci breaker .


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

A Little Short said:


> Here are a few pics of a pool with 120V lights in a wet niche...]




I know that this is an old picture , But 120v Wet Niech Pool Light Fixture is so dangerous . There is no need to install these death traps .




Pete


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

pete87 said:


> I know that this is an old picture , But 120v Wet Niech Pool Light Fixture is so dangerous . There is no need to install these death traps . Pete


 Not in this day and age anyway .


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

That's truly innovative Shorty :thumbup:~CS~


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

drumnut08 said:


> Not in this day and age anyway .





Miami Dade in Florida passed an amendment to the Electrical Code prohibiting 120 V Pool Lighting last year after another 120 V Pool Lighting fatality .

When they voted for no 120 V Pool Lighting , they said it was a " No Brainer " .

In this day and age , 120 V pool lighting is Deadly and many alternatives exist .



Pete


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

When is a pool panel considered a "separate structure" and required to have ground rods?

If you just have a post with a panel on it nearby the pool equipment that's not considered a separate structure, right?


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> When is a pool panel considered a "separate structure" and required to have ground rods? If you just have a post with a panel on it nearby the pool equipment that's not considered a separate structure, right?


 a pool panel ( which will be considered a sub-panel ) that is not in the structure
Of the main service panel , would seem to need a ground rod to me ? How Far is this post /pool equipment from the structure that houses the service? Can the pool panel ( assuming it's a 3R rated panel ),be mounted to the outside of the structure housing the service , instead?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> When is a pool panel considered a "separate structure" and required to have ground rods?
> 
> If you just have a post with a panel on it nearby the pool equipment that's not considered a separate structure, right?


Anytime a panel (subpanel) is in/on a separate building or structure it requires a GES (ground rod, uffer, etc)

Nothing special about it being a pool panel, it's the same rules for any subpanel. 
And yes, a wooden post is considered a structure and requires a grounding system.


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Here's another dumb question....

2 ground rods just like the main service, or just 1?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

MHElectric said:


> Here's another dumb question....
> 
> 2 ground rods just like the main service, or just 1?



Code says 2 but our inspectors let us get by with one for a separate building or structure at a dwelling. You might want to ask your inspectors.


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## drumnut08 (Sep 23, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> Here's another dumb question.... 2 ground rods just like the main service, or just 1?


 Now the real question is , I hope you don't use one of your " harbor freight " throw away roto hammers to drive the rod , lol ?


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

drumnut08 said:


> Now the real question is , I hope you don't use one of your " harbor freight " throw away roto hammers to drive the rod , lol ?


:shifty:


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## cabletie (Feb 12, 2011)

We had a customer once that was getting a tingle off of the 120 volt pool light. I disconnected the light to get a replacement. 

That night the family dog fell in the dark pool and drowned.


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## Tigerloose (Dec 5, 2010)

A Little Short said:


>


I have encountered a few of these. Perhaps not the same as this because they were required to be installed below the water level of the pool.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

cabletie said:


> We had a customer once that was getting a tingle off of the 120 volt pool light. I disconnected the light to get a replacement.
> 
> That night the family dog fell in the dark pool and drowned.


That sucks. 
Sad , but better than a kid.


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## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

What if an above ground pool that holds more than 42" of water, but the pump is cord and plug connected, does it still need all of the bonding?


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Knightryder12 said:


> What if an above ground pool that holds more than 42" of water, but the pump is cord and plug connected, does it still need all of the bonding?


Yes!


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## Derek1 (Mar 27, 2013)

ce2two said:


> Make sure you pull a green wire with the other conductors.


A few months back, an inspector dinged me on that. 
Since that particular one I was able to pipe (emt) it to the disconnect...but the hot tub's instructions said that is NEEDS a ground wire.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Knightryder12 said:


> What if an above ground pool that holds more than 42" of water, but the pump is cord and plug connected, does it still need all of the bonding?


Suppliers sell a plate to go in the filter housing where you drill a small hole for the bond stud to stick through and is sealed with an o-ring or you can by a stainless pipe fitting with a bond stud on it. I believe you have to have 40 square inches of water surface for proper bonding.


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Do any of you refuse to wire up pools if they plan on using 120V pool lighting instead of 12V?


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

How about do any of you prefer to use low voltage most of the times? 

Or does it not matter? Proper grounding and GFCI breakers so no issues. 

Does anyone know the failure rate of GFCI breakers?


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## Kaffeene (Feb 11, 2014)

Also, does anyone think it takes several (maybe 8) LED low voltage lights to obtain the same light output as 1 or 2 incandescent?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

Kaffeene said:


> Do any of you refuse to wire up pools if they plan on using 120V pool lighting instead of 12V?





Against the Local Code in Miami / Dade Florida now after the last TV campaign 
when some poor kid got Killed by 120V pool lights .





Pete


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## degupita (Jun 5, 2015)

In Hot tubs, the power disconnect cannot be close enough to reach from the Hot tub, but not far enough away that it is out of sight.

The impression pool and spa techs had was that it had to be 3 feet, but in the NEC, it is not less than 5 feet.

I got started in electrical through being a pool and spa tech. So I am coming from that perspective of what code changes happened with swimming pools. Like having a vacuum release system, stingl installed.

I got my first shock, working on a hot tub.

Another one, we found the water was energized. If I recall right, there was a short in the flow through heater.

The owner had been using it, and hadn't noticed anything except he felt a bit more invigorated after being in the hot tub.

All the equipment has to be bonded and around the pool wall if accessible.


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## TTW (Sep 14, 2012)

No need for worrying about potential differences here...


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