# Pancake boxes prohibited?



## RGH

yep you might squeak by with 1 14/2 in there with him...was this 12/2? if so to small.:no:


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## MHElectric

Im pretty sure one 14/2 cable is acceptable. Anything more is too much.


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## five.five-six

They're all number 14 the problem is I got about 35 of them installed

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk


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## RGH

35 oh boy....there is not enough room in them they are usually used for the "exception" area of the box fill code....me thinks you are going back there with bigger boxes bud.


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## cultch

14awg =2.0 right? 2.0 for the hot 2.0 for the N at least.


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## ablyss

five.five-six said:


> I just had an inspector call me on pancakes boxes. Are all dead ends and told me that counting the ground 3.9 cubic inches isn't enough to make up a box. is this something new oregon someone site code allowing the use of pancakes boxes
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I437 using Tapatalk


Let's do the math:
Assuming your using the smallest pancake box 3.5 round .5" deep
pi × radius^2 × height 
pi × 1.25^2 × .5 = 2.5 Cu in volume allowance
14 AWG cu. in allowance 2.0 per conductor, grounds count as 1 conductor
2.0 x 3 = 6.0
This is not allowed unless a plaster extension ring is added.

Assume you use a larger 4" round box
pi × radius^2 × height 
pi × 2^2 × .5 = 6.2 cubic in volume allowance.
2.0 x 3 = 6.0
Plenty of room!


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## ablyss

Just found out I forgot the cable clamp. That would count as 1 conductor too. So 7.0cu in is what your looking at as the bare minimum.

Romex connectors that have the clamping connection outside the box don't count.


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## ampman

Does the fan canopy count toward box fill if your installing a fan that is


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## ablyss

Just found out I forgot the cable clamp. That would count as 1 conductor too. So 7.0cu in is what your looking at as the bare minimum, unless you do use a romex connector clamp.

Romex connectors that have the clamping connection outside the box don't count. So if that is the bare minimum would be 6.0cu in in that case.


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## ablyss

ampman said:


> Does the fan canopy count toward box fill if your installing a fan that is


Only on wires smaller than 14 AWG, and not greater than 4 conductors total


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## MDShunk

You can get a domed blank up canopy. They add a little over 4 cubic inches.


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## stars13bars2

ablyss said:


> Let's do the math:
> Assuming your using the smallest pancake box 3.5 round .5" deep
> pi × radius^2 × height
> pi × 1.25^2 × .5 = 2.5 Cu in volume allowance
> 14 AWG cu. in allowance 2.0 per conductor, grounds count as 1 conductor
> 2.0 x 3 = 3.0
> This is not allowed unless a plaster extension ring is added.
> 
> Assume you use a larger 4" round box
> pi × radius^2 × height
> pi × 2^2 × .5 = 6.2 cubic in volume allowance.
> 2.0 x 3 = 3.0
> Plenty of room!


I agree that the 3.5" is not legal with a 14/2wg, it would only work with metal raceway such as EMT being used for ground. 

I also agree that the 4" pancake would be legal with one 14/2wg.

I am not sure that 2.0 x 3 = 3.0 though.


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## ablyss

stars13bars2 said:


> I agree that the 3.5" is not legal with a 14/2wg, it would only work with metal raceway such as EMT being used for ground.
> 
> I also agree that the 4" pancake would be legal with one 14/2wg.
> 
> I am not sure that 2.0 x 3 = 3.0 though.


Wow Better fix that. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## MDShunk

The other option would be to put something like a Wiremold V5737 4" round extension box on top (which will attach to the 3" round pancakes) and use a regular 4" flush blankup plate. At the cost of those for how many boxes are involved, I might try to figure out a way to get the little pancakes changed out for something different. 

I am curious.... what the hell? Why so many dead ends, and why were pancakes your box of choice?


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## ablyss

MDShunk said:


> You can get a domed blank up canopy. They add a little over 4 cubic inches.


Gotta be the water


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## chicken steve

see 314.16(B)(1)ex:thumbsup:~CS~


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## RGH

I bet you old plaster and lathe house.


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## strangedaze

Just use these and no more dead ends.
http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/fan-fixture-boxes/l-shaped-fan-and-fixture-mounting-boxes/FB443


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## Skblay

You don't have to account for the ground if they enter a canopy.


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## ablyss

Skblay said:


> You don't have to account for the ground if they enter a canopy.


If it's smaller than 14 AWG, at least that is the way I read it. It's not worded very clear that is for sure.:jester:


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## Skblay

ablyss said:


> If it's smaller than 14 AWG, at least that is the way I read it. It's not worded very clear that is for sure.:jester:


 314.16(B)1ex "An equipment grounding conductor OR conductor wires smaller than 14awg" but after reading it again it says where they enter a box from a domed luminaire so they seem to be talking about the fixture wires so I'm reading it as the ground still counts


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## Skblay

chicken steve said:


> see 314.16(B)(1)ex:thumbsup:~CS~


 I believe they are talking about the fixture wires.


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## five.five-six

strangedaze said:


> Just use these and no more dead ends.
> http://www.aifittings.com/catalog/fan-fixture-boxes/l-shaped-fan-and-fixture-mounting-boxes/FB443


I like those for fans because I can connect the fan bracket directly to the joist with #8 or #10 or 1/4" wood screws


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## chicken steve

Skblay said:


> I believe they are talking about the fixture wires.


I believe you are at least minimally literate :thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Deep Cover

edit: didn't notice we were talking about the smaller pan box.


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## Clarky

I never use those ,[ can't say that] but absolutely as a last resort, they really should be banned!


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## Going_Commando

Clarky said:


> I never use those ,[ can't say that] but absolutely as a last resort, they really should be banned!


I love those things with plaster and lathe ceilings. Use them all the time. Then again, we don't have many inspectors around here. :whistling:


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## macmikeman

Just to be clear about this. The current prohibition in the code to using a pancake box for a single 14-2 since it only allows 3.5 cubic inchs of fill has saved zero lives, and stopped zero fires from starting. 

There are places in the NEC where the writers should be slapped across the face, and slapped really hard.

However, those places are outnumbered heavily where the writers of the NEC should be rewarded for the good job they did , with a free afternoon trip to the Soapland Oriental Spa to help them get rid of the wrinkles...


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## Dennis Alwon

They make a 4' Round pancake box that is 6 cu. in. That is what we use-- Lowes even has them.


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## svh19044

Dennis Alwon said:


> They make a 4' Round pancake box that is 6 cu. in. That is what we use-- Lowes even has them.


I don't use that exact one, but this raco, the one that I use all of the time, is also 6.0. I don't like the one you pictured because the "ears" are bigger than the box. For a fixture fan box, I use 











and for ceiling fans


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## Dennis Alwon

svh19044 said:


> I don't use that exact one, but this raco, the one that I use all of the time, is also 6.0.


Not sure what brand we use but the idea is what I was trying to get at. Perfectly compliant with those boxes.


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## ablyss

Put some syrup on that bad boy mmmmm mmm..... oh wait, I was day dreaming again.


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