# tankless water heaters



## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

what unit? index "within sight from"


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

29kw tankless in crawl space.OCP in attached garage


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

422.31


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

thats nec. this is in canada


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## Wingnut (Jan 31, 2010)

william sparky said:


> thats nec. this is in canada


my bad :whistling2:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

william sparky said:


> thats nec. this is in canada


And I was about to quote California Electric Code.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

william sparky said:


> thats nec. this is in canada


 Guess we need a Canadian Forum!:laughing::laughing:


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

I looked under 26-750, and 26-758, but it didn't give me a solid answer....mostly mentioned that it had to have a dedicated circuit....


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

I see mention of this for motors, and for capacitors, but not for water heaters, and I have never installed a disconnect for any one I have ever put in, so we may not need to. I think the breaker is good enough, from what I see.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

william sparky said:


> thats nec. this is in canada


 Beggars can't be picky.


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## codeone (Sep 15, 2008)

Do they have a section for appliances, o!r Resistive Heat? Check there


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

no, I quoted the 2 code sections they fall under, but I am positive that we don't need a disconnect up here. Yes for motors, due to the nature of fingers getting caught, etc, and the nature of capacitors, but, it's a heater........if one is silly enough to stick their fingers on a hot element, well then, they have problems bigger than you or I can solve....:laughing:


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

The only question is which Providce the OP is from due there are couple variations of CEC { Canada Electrical Code }.

I know it may get off point for a second but with my French codes we are required a local disconnection switch or isoliator switch next to tankless water heater 

Merci,Marc


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

There are add ons that are province specific, however, there is only one CEC. Said add ons will be given out by those specific provinces. If there is a variation of which you speak, I have not heard of it, nor have been aware as to said variations have been available to purchase.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It seems like it would be an appliance that is fastened in place but,
I refuse to install whole house residential electric tankless heaters.


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

i checked with inspector today.he said i need a disconnect within sight of unit but he could not quote me a rule number.this unit uses three 50 amp dp breakers and two #8 twowire cables and one #8 three wire cable. thats what the installation manual says.however he told me that 3 seperate feeds are not allowed here.i have to run one feeder big enough to handle the combined load.


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## cobra50 (Aug 12, 2009)

Worked on few of these in florida condos...I always see a 125amp 4pole enclosure with 2-40amp cb next to the heater... 14kw is a standard unit.The last two were installed in a linen closet...what a pain in the a$$.http://www.buytankless.com


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

thanks to cobra 50 for the info.like they say a picture is worth a thousand words. those things are just starting to get popular in my area because the services and houses are getting bigger.lots of $$$ coming in from alberta.


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

also thanks to all who answered my question


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

jrannis said:


> It seems like it would be an appliance that is fastened in place but,
> I refuse to install whole house residential electric tankless heaters.


How about we refer to them as "Tankless Water Warmers". I'm getting sick of explaining to people why they don't work.


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

william sparky said:


> i checked with inspector today.he said i need a disconnect within sight of unit but he could not quote me a rule number.this unit uses three 50 amp dp breakers and two #8 twowire cables and one #8 three wire cable. thats what the installation manual says.however he told me that 3 seperate feeds are not allowed here.i have to run one feeder big enough to handle the combined load.


he could not quote a rule number, because one does not exist. He could just be going above and beyond, some do, and it is just as well to do it to keep him happy. Then you have less grief in the future.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

OK, now someone explain this to me.....why in the hell would any residence want an electric tankless water heater (warmer)?


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

they are becoming more and more popular. Mr SparkyGirl has been installing many of them recently, as apparently, they are supposed to save money by not having to constantly keep a reservoir of water heated at all times, or something along those lines....when he starts getting into the actual logistic of plumbing.....my eyes do tend to glaze a tad.........


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I know they are becoming more popular. But most tank type water heaters are so efficient they can keep the water hot all day without cycling, except in extreme conditions. Tankless are energy hogs and when used as "suggested" by the mfg. they rarely produce anything but warm water...


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## BCSparkyGirl (Aug 20, 2009)

some people like to buy intoi every new gadget that comes out though........gotta keep up with the jones's.......


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

I hear ya......just wouldn't install one.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

I built a pool house with a gas fired tankless water heater that was as hot as I could want. No experience with the electric but I'll stand by the gas baby all day long.


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## Missouri Bound (Aug 30, 2009)

Jay, I agree...gas fired units are a different story.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I have dealt with a bit of tankless electrique waterheaters in France and it is not our favour as well however they are wired with much higher voltage { 415 volts line to line } and pretty good case it will have triphase supply with it.

IMO the whole house system is not the best set up espcally with very long plumming runs but sure POU { point of use } that can justfiy it with smaller unit.

I know one of members here mention gaz tankless water heater they do work pretty good as long you have gaz supply sized properly and proper vent{s}.

Merci,Marc


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> he could not quote a rule number, because one does not exist. He could just be going above and beyond, some do, and it is just as well to do it to keep him happy. Then you have less grief in the future.


 you are so right.went over another inspectors head before and it caused more trouble than it was worth.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

william sparky said:


> you are so right.went over another inspectors head before and it caused more trouble than it was worth.


 
Too bad - buck the system I say. Go over their heads if you have to and if it threatens your payment or profitability - threaten (but be ready to) sue if needs be.

If the inspectors want a code to require something let THEM go through the hoops to make it happen, instead of wishing it into reality because "I would like to see..."

Be sure to demand ANY violation be noted CHAPTER and VERSE...


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Too bad - buck the system I say. Go over their heads if you have to and if it threatens your payment or profitability - threaten (but be ready to) sue if needs be.
> 
> If the inspectors want a code to require something let THEM go through the hoops to make it happen, instead of wishing it into reality because "I would like to see..."
> 
> Be sure to demand ANY violation be noted CHAPTER and VERSE...


you are right but it is not worth the hassle.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

william sparky said:


> you are right but it is not worth the hassle.


Have you considered it might be worth it once you become known as the contractor NOT to F&*K with?


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Podagrower said:


> How about we refer to them as "Tankless Water Warmers". I'm getting sick of explaining to people why they don't work.


And why the lights dim so badly.


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

BCSparkyGirl said:


> There are add ons that are province specific, however, there is only one CEC. Said add ons will be given out by those specific provinces. If there is a variation of which you speak, I have not heard of it, nor have been aware as to said variations have been available to purchase.


inspector also said three seperate 50 amp feeds not allowed here but thats how this unit is installed according to installation manual.cant find no rule for that either in cec.


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## jbrookers (Dec 7, 2008)

Why are three separate feeds not allowed? Many large heat pump furnaces are wire with two circuits as well. 

Generally, we run a 100 or 125A service with a sub panel next to the heater.


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

jbrookers said:


> Why are three separate feeds not allowed? Many large heat pump furnaces are wire with two circuits as well.
> 
> Generally, we run a 100 or 125A service with a sub panel next to the heater.


dont know.cobra 50 submitted a site that gives a rule number but its not in my cec. 2006 version. maybe its in the new one.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Jesus H!!! 3 x 50a circuits and probably a 400a residential service when 200 would suffice, possible demand meter charges and these things are supposed to save money how???


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Jesus H!!! 3 x 50a circuits and probably a 400a residential service when 200 would suffice, possible demand meter charges and these things are supposed to save money how???


yes 400 amp service,two 200 amp panels,35kw baqseboard heat and 29 kw tankless water heater which will need two disconnects one fusible in electrical room and one non fusible in crawl space near the unit.also #2 copper conductor.very expensive


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

william sparky said:


> yes 400 amp service,two 200 amp panels,35kw baqseboard heat and 29 kw tankless water heater which will need two disconnects one fusible in electrical room and one non fusible in crawl space near the unit.also #2 copper conductor.very expensive


There's more copper being used to feed the darn thing than if they ran 3/4 type M copper pipe all over the house and used a standard 52-80 gallon electric WH. on a 25a circuit. 

When is the payback for these things, 3012?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Payback is not always the issue,sometimes it is not having to worry that you just did the dishes before showering. Sometimes (like me) it is real estate the old tank unit occupies (in my kitchen).

That being said, I looked long at the issue and I only have to install a small circut for the gas tankless heater the plumber will install:thumbup: Heard some good and bad on the electric,just not willing to take the chance with $1500 even if I install.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

Your inspector is full of it. If your unit is the same as the ones I've done, there is no way to wire it without parallel feeds. If you look inside the unit there is a separate set of lugs for each heating coil. Each coil gets a separate cct.


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## william sparky (Jan 30, 2010)

randas said:


> Your inspector is full of it. If your unit is the same as the ones I've done, there is no way to wire it without parallel feeds. If you look inside the unit there is a separate set of lugs for each heating coil. Each coil gets a separate cct.


he said some sort of kit should come with it and it should be csa approved.i am waiting for the HO to receive the unit before i run any circuits.maybe theres a different set of rules here.we are not allowed to use self contained meter boxes over 200 amps here either.


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## jw0445 (Oct 9, 2009)

The last one I did took 4 double 30's. Mounted the 125 amp subpanel 6 ft. away. I personally wouldn't want an electric one. The gas tankless heaters work well and are much more efficient.


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