# Lowes Installation



## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Where I am they would have to sub it out to licensed ECs, there would be permits and inspections ....... or at least they are required ....


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mattsilkwood said:


> ............I didn't think to ask about some installation pictures but I'm sure it's bad...........


Any photos they have I would have _Off-Limits Word #1_-ed for them. :laughing:


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## jefft110 (Jul 7, 2010)

BBQ said:


> Where I am they would have to sub it out to licensed ECs, there would be permits and inspections ....... or at least they are required ....


Yep. It's not like a couple of goobers, wearing blue Lowes vest show up at your door to do the install.:laughing:


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## CJE (Oct 10, 2010)

I think they pretty much all do it now. I'd think it would be a crapshoot for the homeowner. They sub the work to local guys, so quality would vary. It's not the guy in the blue or orange vest doing the install. They are too busy giving bad advice in the electrical aisle at the store.


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## Daniel Korb (Jan 26, 2010)

Home Depot and Lowes do it here in Ohio, but they simply sell the generator and sub the electric work out to an EC. The only thing i have seen Lowes actually do is build an on site shed with in house "carpenters" that they employ.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

What brand are they, so we can automatically consider them 'hack' gennys regardless of who installed it or where it was bought? :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

CJE said:


> It's not the guy in the blue or orange vest doing the install. *They are too busy giving bad advice in the electrical aisle at the store.*



:thumbup::thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

CJE said:


> ..........They are too busy giving bad advice in the electrical aisle at the store.



I don't know why, but Peter D just came to mind. :laughing:


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## Daniel Korb (Jan 26, 2010)

480sparky said:


> What brand are they, so we can automatically consider them 'hack' gennys regardless of who installed it or where it was bought? :laughing:


Generac is what HD sells.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I knew a guy who did general carpentry (doors, windows, banisters etc.) installs for Lowes. He liked it, they would give him the work order and he would provide the labor and hand tools, no selling, billing or hassles. They would call him up and he would work it into his semi retired schedule.


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## CJE (Oct 10, 2010)

480sparky said:


> What brand are they, so we can automatically consider them 'hack' gennys regardless of who installed it or where it was bought? :laughing:


I don't know anyone who has done electrical for a box store. I do know a carpenter who did some kitchen remodel work for a regional box store a few years ago. His problem with them was they kept squeezing him on price to the point that he wasn't making any money. I guess what I'm saying is if that is the case with the electrical side, you may have some craftsmanship issues with the install.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We looked at doing work for the box stores. Decided against it.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I see the furnace a/c salesman of a local shop whenever I enter the depot. He's up at the front hanging out next to his display. It's a real successful shop, and the salesman is always there because it is probably the busiest depot in the state, in the richest neighborhood in the state.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Daniel Korb said:


> Generac is what HD sells.



Yeah, but here's talking about Lowe's hack equipment.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Where I am they would have to sub it out to licensed ECs, there would be permits and inspections ....... or at least they are required ....


Here too... though we don't have any big box home improvement stores on the coast..... yet. Well, no, there's a Home Depot up in Astoria, but I think that's it.

There's a local hack HVAC outfit that also runs a car rental service out of their shop :blink: A while back I was driving by and saw a sign in their window advertising generator installations. I know for a fact that they did not have an electrical contractor license or any licensed electricians on staff so I called up the local building department and reported 'em. Turns out they had also been doing all the line voltage wiring for their furnace/heat pump/etc. jobs. That's electrical contractor work 'round these parts.

Also had to troubleshoot an electric boiler system installed by these guys. First thing I saw when I walked in was the boiler nameplate said 208/120 3 phase, but the circuit supplying them was 240 delta high leg  Extra-hot water.

Following hack work is funny and alarming at the same time.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

HD and lowes sub their stuff out. Hd does a sales leads type thing, where they get 20% of every job. I worked for a company that did stuff for HD. Corporate BS all the way.


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## bward76 (Oct 7, 2009)

CJE said:


> They are too busy giving bad advice in the electrical aisle at the store.



I listened to a 19 year old kid (the HD Electrical expert) tell a customer that his dad was an EC and he had more electrical experience than anyone there. All of this was going on while giving advise on how to repair a sprinkler control wire the customer had broken while digging in the yard. I usually leave these conversations alone but when I noticed he was trying to sell him an N-9 christy box and EMT 90's to stub up and help protect the wire underground...I had to step in. I could tell the kid was butt hurt but he should be happy that I didn't tell the manager how bad he was about to screw this homeowner. :laughing:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I followed a lady home to help with her fart fan. She was my age, and looked somewhat good.

Other small jobs followed.

I almost cheated on the wife, but I had seen some herpes cream in the medicine cabinet. I've never cheated, but if I hadn't seen the cream, can't say it wouldn't have happened...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Yeah, but here's talking about Lowe's hack equipment.


Then let's talk about Connecticut Electric generator panels.

Even Gen-tran has me spooked.

I did the QO generator panel and cut the circuits requested from the service panel to the QO panel in a 1" flex with #10's for derating.

I did by the Gentran generator receptacle for the job though.


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## mattsilkwood (Sep 21, 2008)

Here they would have to be licensed and inspected if they were in city limits, but if they were out in the township or even any of the other towns around here anyone could do it. That's what sucks about not having a state license, the rules are different eveywhere you go. 

Even if they were doing it here in town it would have to be up to code but it wouldn't have to be pretty. 
I can imagine what they are paying for these installs and I can imagine what kind of work that would buy.


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## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

The price I have seen in my area from the box stores is $1995 ish starting price for generator installation.

I have no interest in competing at that price level. I could, but it would not be pretty, user friendly, expandable, or of high quality.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Just once the big bleu called me to do the installment on the generator installment which I figured that they got the wind of moi doing with larger units and somehow what I am not too pleased with big bleu try to roughneck me with the prices and they did not really do a good job to explain the customer what it will be involed with installing a stand by generator.

But after that never deal with it unless the customer call me direct then I can deal with it easy.

Merci.
Marc


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## r_merc (Jul 5, 2008)

*Blue and Orange*

I do installs for both blue and orange on the Gennys. Getting through the door to become an installer for either requires extensive background checks of every individual who comes in contact with the customer and of the owners and finances of the company. It's not like they call anyone out of the phone book and say here you go ...good luck with that. Both of them require a fully licensed and insured EC and a permitted job. You won't get paid until you submit the permit and orange will fine you $500 if the permit is not submitted into thier electronic document storage system. The prices that are charged to the customer are set by me after I do a site visit. 
Both sell Generac. Blue under the name Guardian. Blue also sells Kohler. Orange also sells Briggs & Stratton under the name GE.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Our residential inspectors have been quite loaded with inspections lately.Due to this the department director has asked us commercial inspectors to help the residential side out by doing some of their work. I have looked at a least a dozen residential generator installs in the last 3 weeks. Have yet to find one that I can pass the first time out! 
Another comercial inspector has inspected about 10 and he has not been able to pass one the first time out either.

what is it about residential companies not knowing how to install a residential generator to code?? 
The violations we find are minding numbing!

At this rate would HD or Lowes be any worse ? :whistling2:


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

What kinds of violations are you seeing? I have more trouble with the gas side of things. Lots of differing opinions on how that needs to be done. After I found out they won't let us use the breaker in the unit as a disconnect and put another on a post nearby, its been fairly smooth sailing.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> What kinds of violations are you seeing? I have more trouble with the gas side of things. Lots of differing opinions on how that needs to be done. After I found out they won't let us use the breaker in the unit as a disconnect and put another on a post nearby, its been fairly smooth sailing.


Where to start ..?

It seems the Generac comes with a sealtight whip with the panel. I'm seeing electricians using the excess white conductors for current carrying conductors when they extend circuits to the genset panel. I'm seeing double tapped neutrals in genset panels, Loose fittings, lack of panel schedule marking and corrections made to existing panels, Lack of a sign at the service entrance stating location and type of standby power, Lack of a calculation to show the load on the stand by source, I saw a generac panel installed in a clothes closet.

I am seeing contractors installing transfer switches with overcurrent devices installed in, between the meter and the panel, but the switches are not listed as suitable for use as service equipment.

I am also seeing contractors installing automatic transfer switches , with a main overcurrent device installed, in between the meter and panel but not changing the SE cable to SER and separating the grounds and neutrals in the panel.
I am finding contractors installing transfer switches, with main overcurrent devices installed, and not bring the Grounding Electrode Conductors to the transfer switch( they are leaving them installed in the panels).

Another problem I've seen is when a person has a 400 amp service that has 2- 200 amp main breaker panels. The contractors install a service rated transfer switch ahead of 1 of the panels, to provide a 200 amp generator back up panel. The problem is they install the transfer switch on the exterior of the house and change the se cable to ser to 1 panel and do nothing with the 2nd panel. This is a violation because the service disconnects are not grouped any more. 1 is on the outside( the transfer switch) and one is in the basement.( the second panels main breaker)

I had one the day that installed a straight automatic transfer switch ( no over current in it) in the basement ahead of the panel. He came in from the meter with SE cable, went to the transfer switch, brought SE out of the transfer switch to the panel. From where he brought the SE into the house and the route he took to go to the tranfer switch then the panel he had 35 feet of unfused cable in the basement.

The best one was on a farm. The guy installed a 200 amp double throw unfused safety switch in between the meter and the panel. He had a conduit out of the bottom that went to a box that had a set of lugs in it. 
He said that when the power went out he would drag his gererator over and tie the leads on to those lugs, throw the swtich and wham, back in business. Oh yeah the double throw switch was not listed for service use, was mounted outside and was rated for indoor use only, and was 8 feet ( over a window) in the air! He had a pipe with a hook on it to operate the switch.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I've never been asked for the sign, although it makes sense. Anybody have a nice premade one or are they having them made? Some lazy installers there. Its so easy to change the conductors in those prewired transfer panels. I haven't done transfer switches ahead of the main panel because none of the generators I've installed would carry the calculated load.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

nrp3 said:


> I've never been asked for the sign, although it makes sense. Anybody have a nice premade one or are they having them made? Some lazy installers there. Its so easy to change the conductors in those prewired transfer panels. I haven't done transfer switches ahead of the main panel because none of the generators I've installed would carry the calculated load.


Signs are required by code.
Emergency Systems - 700.8
Legally Required Standby Systems - 701.9
Optional Standby Systems- 702.8


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Can't argue that one, 702.8, clear as day. At the meter socket or main panel? Guessing at the meter, for when the fire dept might pull the meter?


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## r_merc (Jul 5, 2008)

manchestersparky said:


> Where to start ..?
> 
> It seems the Generac comes with a sealtight whip with the panel. I'm seeing electricians using the excess white conductors for current carrying conductors when they extend circuits to the genset panel. I'm seeing double tapped neutrals in genset panels, Loose fittings, lack of panel schedule marking and corrections made to existing panels, Lack of a sign at the service entrance stating location and type of standby power, Lack of a calculation to show the load on the stand by source, I saw a generac panel installed in a clothes closet.
> 
> ...


Not every EC needs to be installing Gen Sets. They can be sold to anyone. Without training and experience you will get plenty of BS installs. We've been through the school and have had training. The stuff you describe is just ignorance or negligence. I'm just going to lean to the ignorance side. On the other side of things I've had inspectors look at installs and see their eyes gloss over because they don't know what they are looking at. There is work that I wouldn't want to do because I have no experience with it. Learning OJT can be very expensive


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## r_merc (Jul 5, 2008)

manchestersparky said:


> Our residential inspectors have been quite loaded with inspections lately.Due to this the department director has asked us commercial inspectors to help the residential side out by doing some of their work. I have looked at a least a dozen residential generator installs in the last 3 weeks. Have yet to find one that I can pass the first time out!
> Another comercial inspector has inspected about 10 and he has not been able to pass one the first time out either.
> 
> what is it about residential companies not knowing how to install a residential generator to code??
> ...


I Know that Lowes and HD will not let us do any Installs unless we have current certification from GENERAC. That factory training has to be renewed every 2 years. Lowe's and HD have their own name to protect. You do a bad job for Lowe's and they will remove you from their installers list.


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