# Leaving a apprentice electrician on the jobsite alone to do work in Texas



## Chris Wendt

Can someone point out to me the code that says an apprentice cant be left on a job-site alone to do work in the TDLR website or code book. I cant find where it clearly defines it. I have been told the Journeyman or Master has to be onsite with them at all times if work is being done.


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## telsa

But is the work deemed "Electrical" ?

That's the hitch, usually.

In California, ditch digging and much more is NOT deemed electrical work -- even if it's performed for electrical raceways and directly by employees of an electrical contractor.

Consequently, anything goes.

Were you going to call the labor police ?


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## Chris Wendt

telsa said:


> But is the work deemed "Electrical" ?
> 
> That's the hitch, usually.
> 
> In California, ditch digging and much more is NOT deemed electrical work -- even if it's performed for electrical raceways and directly by employees of an electrical contractor.
> 
> Consequently, anything goes.
> 
> Were you going to call the labor police ?


Basically trimming out plugs and switches, so yes electrical.


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## Signal1

Chris Wendt said:


> Basically trimming out *plugs *and switches, so yes electrical.


Receptacles!:icon_rolleyes:


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## Chris Wendt

Signal1 said:


> Receptacles!:icon_rolleyes:


semantics


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## hardworkingstiff

Chris Wendt said:


> semantics


Well, ..... not really. 



> noun
> 1. a piece of wood or other material used to stop up a hole or aperture, to fill a gap, or to act as a wedge.
> 
> 2. a core or interior segment taken from a larger matrix.
> 
> 3. Electricity. a device to which may be attached the conductors of a cord and which by* insertion* in a jack, or screwing *into a receptacle*, establishes contact.


Those devices in the wall that aren't switches are not plugs, they are receptacles. The plug is what you insert into that device.


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## HackWork

Chris Wendt said:


> semantics


You seem gangster. I'm pretty gangster too.


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## Chris Wendt

hardworkingstiff said:


> Well, ..... not really.
> 
> 
> 
> Those devices in the wall that aren't switches are not plugs, they are receptacles. The plug is what you insert into that device.


 as usual, a pain in the ass to get help in here. Someone always has to take it a different direction.


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## emtnut

Signal1 said:


> Receptacles!:icon_rolleyes:


I was taught that the top one was a plug, and the bottom one a receptacle.

Who knows these days :blink:


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## hardworkingstiff

Chris Wendt said:


> as usual, a pain in the ass to get help in here. Someone always has to take it a different direction.


Well sorry, if you want to go around looking ignorant, I guess I shouldn't care.


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## J F Go

Homeowners get a pass on calling them plugs but an electrician does not. Use correct terminology so that when you speak you put the people that you are working for at ease because you sound knowledgeable about what your doing. When you speak with confidence and correct terminology you instill confidence with your employer as well. That, inevitability, will get you better pay. As far as installing switches and receptacles with no one right over your shoulder should not be a big deal, but if you're uncomfortable with that let your employer know, but in private. Good luck to you in your endeavors.


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## TGGT

Chris Wendt said:


> Can someone point out to me the code that says an apprentice cant be left on a job-site alone to do work in the TDLR website or code book. I cant find where it clearly defines it. I have been told the Journeyman or Master has to be onsite with them at all times if work is being done.


To my knowledge there is nothing TDLR says about leaving an apprentice to work by themselves. Though good practices would have you paired with a journeyman.

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## emtnut

Chris Wendt said:


> as usual, a pain in the ass to get help in here. Someone always has to take it a different direction.


Really Chris 

What do you want us to say ? ... Ya, go **** your boss/company ... nail em good ?

If you think what you're doing is unsafe, and if an electrician isn't spot checking your work, talk to your boss about it.

Asking us where to report him ... well, your going to get a lot of 'off' topic answers.

ETA: When guys come on here and ask good questions, we go out of our way to help out. Once the question is answered, we may stray a bit


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## Chris Wendt

emtnut said:


> Really Chris
> 
> What do you want us to say ? ... Ya, go **** your boss/company ... nail em good ?
> 
> If you think what you're doing is unsafe, and if an electrician isn't spot checking your work, talk to your boss about it.
> 
> Asking us where to report him ... well, your going to get a lot of 'off' topic answers.
> 
> ETA: When guys come on here and ask good questions, we go out of our way to help out. Once the question is answered, we may stray a bit


Once again, way off topic! This is all crazy talk! I had an electrical inspector make a apprentice leave a job one time because a Journeyman wasn't onsite. The Journeyman ran to the supply house to pick up some material and a electrical inspector showed up. This happened a few years ago, so me and a buddy got on this subject the other day, so I thought I would try to find where it was illegal to have a apprentice onsite without a journeyman or master.


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## hardworkingstiff

81.2 Properly Qualified Electricians to Supervise Work. In the actual work of installing,
maintaining, altering, or repairing any electric conductor or equipment for which a permit is
required, *there shall be present, on site, and in direct supervision, a qualified electrician of the
proper classification*. Should it come to the notice of the chief electrical code administrator or an
inspector of the administrator that proper supervision and controls are not being maintained, the
chief electrical code administrator or the inspector may order the work to be discontinued, and
the person to whom the permit has been issued shall discontinue further work until proper
supervision has been employed or supplied; provided, that this requirement does not prohibit the
employment of apprentices, electrical trainees, or unskilled laborers assisting a person duly
registered and qualified under the provisions of this Code.

https://dallascityhall.com/departme...trical Code Ordinance 29633-March 13 2015.pdf


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## hardworkingstiff

I think this could be used to support the claim a licensee needs to be on site (it looks like Texas has multiple licenses). 

73.70. Responsibility of Licensee--Standards of Conduct. (Effective March 1, 2004, 29 TexReg 1653; amended effective
October 20, 2005, 30 TexReg 6730; amended effective January 1, 2010, 34 TexReg 9433; amended effective March 15, 2012, 37
TexReg 1703)
(a) An individual licensee must provide all electrical work requiring a license through a licensed contractor, or
employing governmental entity.

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricians/elecrules091517.pdf


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## Chris Wendt

hardworkingstiff said:


> I think this could be used to support the claim a licensee needs to be on site (it looks like Texas has multiple licenses).
> 
> 73.70. Responsibility of Licensee--Standards of Conduct. (Effective March 1, 2004, 29 TexReg 1653; amended effective
> October 20, 2005, 30 TexReg 6730; amended effective January 1, 2010, 34 TexReg 9433; amended effective March 15, 2012, 37
> TexReg 1703)
> (a) An individual licensee must provide all electrical work requiring a license through a licensed contractor, or
> employing governmental entity.
> 
> https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricians/elecrules091517.pdf


Perfect, I believe this covers it. Thank you for your help.


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## trentonmakes

How would the inspector know unless the apprentice couldnt answere the basic questions the inspector asks?
Theres been plenty of times i been left alone and talk with inspector, never been a problem

Texting and Driving


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## hardworkingstiff

trentonmakes said:


> How would the inspector know unless the apprentice couldnt answere the basic questions the inspector asks?
> Theres been plenty of times i been left alone and talk with inspector, never been a problem
> 
> Texting and Driving


I guess the inspector could just ask "Do you have a license?".

I would assume a license card is issued for the different classifications. 

With smartphones these days, I also think it would be easy for the inspector to verify a license claim.


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## B-Nabs

Around here, it is not unheard of (though it is uncommon) for an inspector to see someone's TQ (trade qualification). People definitely pull the "my foreman is at the wholesaler" routine, then have to go call someone and tell them to get back to site. I've never personally run into either scenario though. 

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## Chris Wendt

hardworkingstiff said:


> I guess the inspector could just ask "Do you have a license?".
> 
> I would assume a license card is issued for the different classifications.
> 
> With smartphones these days, I also think it would be easy for the inspector to verify a license claim.


You are correct, In Texas we have the TDLR and you can look up anyone. All apprentice, journeyman, masters, and electrical contractors are required to have a licence on them. Contractors here have to pay the state and each city they work in. Its got its pros and cons I guess. You can verify anyone by their name on the site. You can go there and type in my name and find my masters licence online at anytime.


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## TGGT

hardworkingstiff said:


> 81.2 Properly Qualified Electricians to Supervise Work. In the actual work of installing,
> maintaining, altering, or repairing any electric conductor or equipment for which a permit is
> required, *there shall be present, on site, and in direct supervision, a qualified electrician of the
> proper classification*. Should it come to the notice of the chief electrical code administrator or an
> inspector of the administrator that proper supervision and controls are not being maintained, the
> chief electrical code administrator or the inspector may order the work to be discontinued, and
> the person to whom the permit has been issued shall discontinue further work until proper
> supervision has been employed or supplied; provided, that this requirement does not prohibit the
> employment of apprentices, electrical trainees, or unskilled laborers assisting a person duly
> registered and qualified under the provisions of this Code.
> 
> https://dallascityhall.com/departme...trical Code Ordinance 29633-March 13 2015.pdf


That's Dallas though. I don't think this regulation applies state wide.

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## hardworkingstiff

TGGT said:


> That's Dallas though. I don't think this regulation applies state wide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


The OP is from Dallas. I agree it won't apply state wide hence the 2nd post.

There is more in that 2nd link to support the claim that a licensed person must be performing the electrical work.


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## TGGT

hardworkingstiff said:


> The OP is from Dallas. I agree it won't apply state wide hence the 2nd post.
> 
> There is more in that 2nd link to support the claim that a licensed person must be performing the electrical work.


Oh, I missed that part on the phone app. It doesn't show his location there.

If he's in Dallas he should just join Local 20 and he wouldn't have to worry about this kind of thing anymore.


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## sbrn33

telsa said:


> But is the work deemed "Electrical" ?
> 
> That's the hitch, usually.
> 
> In California, ditch digging and much more is NOT deemed electrical work -- even if it's performed for electrical raceways and directly by employees of an electrical contractor.
> 
> Consequently, anything goes.
> 
> Were you going to call the labor police ?


If that is the case their time should not count towards their J-man license.


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## adamclark52

Isn't a lot of the reasoning for not leaving an apprentice alone the liabilities? Not just what he or she could do electrically but their own safety? Falling off a ladder, trying to over-extend themselves. No one should be working alone but apprentices seem to be treated like children in a lot of peoples eyes.


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## trentonmakes

I think this mostly would depend on the skill level of said apprentice. Some you worry about while standing beside them, others you tell em what to do and your confident it will get done correctly.

Texting and Driving


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## telsa

Isn't the OP a Master Electrician ?

Meaning, most of the responses seem off target.

Fellas are posting as if the OP is the apprentice.


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## telsa

sbrn33 said:


> If that is the case their time should not count towards their J-man license.


Usually, such souls are not even IN an apprenticeship.


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## TGGT

telsa said:


> Isn't the OP a Master Electrician ?
> 
> Meaning, most of the responses seem off target.
> 
> Fellas are posting as if the OP is the apprentice.


Then OP is on the hook if apprentice gets hurt or killed.

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## matt1124

I had an apprentice working in an attic alone one time, hanging a furnace, getting ductwork connected. He and I went to vo-tech together, just a couple months away from getting his jman (which he aced first try), and wouldn't think a thing about questioning his quality of work. I leave him to go to supply house or whatever pretty often.

The inspector saw our box truck and knew there was no permits on the house, and let himself in the garage, and up the attic scuttle.

"Hey, what are you boys doin' up here?!"

I trained him well, he tossed the tool he had in his hand, grabbed a rag and started wiping the unit down. "Just cleaning up, waiting for the boss" he says! :tt2:

Got a fine for commencing without a permit but no trouble about the "unqualified" labor. We have the citation hung up in the office, I'm starting to collect them.


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## mikedl361

J F Go said:


> Homeowners get a pass on calling them plugs but an electrician does not. Use correct terminology so that when you speak you put the people that you are working for at ease because you sound knowledgeable about what your doing. When you speak with confidence and correct terminology you instill confidence with your employer as well. That, inevitability, will get you better pay. As far as installing switches and receptacles with no one right over your shoulder should not be a big deal, but if you're uncomfortable with that let your employer know, but in private. Good luck to you in your endeavors.[/QUOT'llE]
> That's very well said. I do have to admit I often used the term "plugs" as well, but after reading your post I will refer to them as receptacles always.


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## brian john

How long have you been in the trade?

Were you out of your depth in the work they wanted you to do?

How long were you left alone?

My point is do you feel qualified to complete the task you were given or were you in over your head?


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## active1

TDLR seems good for answering questions.
An email should clear it up in a day.
They would be my 1st choice for regulation questions.
For discussing the moral, business, and what would you do, then forums are good.

Not to pick on the OP but professionals really should use, well professional language.

I understand on a loud job site, yelling, or a radio that cuts out screaming pull the nut., neutral, or gray works better than grounded conductor.

Talking to customers there may be a need to tone it down, or using the proper term and then following with their terms. Sometimes it gets to be a mess where you just have to say what are we trying to accomplish.

One key to the NEC is understanding the proper terms. An outlet, receptacle, plug all have different meanings. Even if you know the difference, how are others learning around you going to figure it out.

Other professionals such as doctors and attorneys have their own language. Are you going to want to pay a Dr to tell you you've got an achy stomach? Do judges use basic English, many times no. You need to ask an attorney what it means.

It's not a screw. It's a 6-32x1. It's not a bulb, it's a lamp. Could go on and on. Which is more professional.

I remember a foreman got a new crew of JW's. Start of the day one of the crew asked "what are we doing today". The foreman said "installing luminaries". JW said "what's a luminarie". Not one JW knew the answer. They all got laid off on the spot.


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## joebanana

telsa said:


> But is the work deemed "Electrical" ?
> 
> That's the hitch, usually.
> 
> In California, ditch digging and much more is NOT deemed electrical work -- even if it's performed for electrical raceways and directly by employees of an electrical contractor.
> 
> Consequently, anything goes.
> 
> Were you going to call the labor police ?


That's why the Laborers union is trying to take over underground installations, and the Carpenters union is trying to take over everything else, because "anyone" can do electrical work.(?)


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