# Overloaded service



## swen (Mar 27, 2012)

*main breaker*



Hippie said:


> I have a convenience store with a 400a single phase service. At the meter there is a 200a 40 ckt panel, full of compressors for the coolers and a ton of tandem breakers for other stuff, mostly lighting. There's also a 200a disconnect for a second panel at the other end of the store. The panel with the compressors is way too hot and keeps tripping the main. They don't want to spend too much to fix it, and I'm pretty sure they won't want an 800a upgrade. My only idea here is to replace the disco with a 200a panel, refeed the remote panel from there with a 100a breaker and move some of the loads from the overstuffed panel to the new one. I didn't have my meter with me when I went to look at it so I'm not sure if that's even possible depending on the load that's already on the existing panel, but I doubt its that high, the only large loads it has is a coffee maker and a couple ice cream coolers. However, it also has all the computers and gas pumps in it so under sizing it would be bad. Does anyone have a better idea, short of a larger service?


 first do a load check on the main breaker, maybe it's defective


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

swen said:


> first do a load check on the main breaker, maybe it's defective


I'm gonna go back and check the actual loads but I doubt it, its been happening since new (larger) compressors were installed and with the amount of stuff in there its not likely


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Probably more overload than anything, but sometimes checking out you may find loose connections or bad installs etc.
But FWIW I had a customer today with a bad main breaker, tripping here and there, I got a new one and headed there and found that the origional installer had cut one of the hots just slightly shorter than the other and it had not been seated properly all the way in the lug and actually caused the lug to crack almost in half besides heating the f our of the breaker.


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## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

The compressors are on sometimes, but the lighting is on ALL the time. Would the owner maybe be interested in upgrading to more efficient lighting to reduce the baseline load, and save some electricity in the process? LED T8 tubes? Not sure if that'll cost less than your solution or reduce the load enough depending on how many lights there are.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Vintage Sounds said:


> The compressors are on sometimes, but the lighting is on ALL the time. Would the owner maybe be interested in upgrading to more efficient lighting to reduce the baseline load, and save some electricity in the process? LED T8 tubes? Not sure if that'll cost less than your solution or reduce the load enough depending on how many lights there are.


That is a great suggestion.

Another simple low buck, solution would be to interlock the one or two of refrigeration compressors with the air conditioning compressors so that anytime that refrigeration compressor is called on the air conditioning stops.

Of course this very well may make the place less comfortable but unless they want to spend the money to up grade the service they will have to drop some load. There really are no other options, less load or bigger service.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Vintage Sounds said:


> The compressors are on sometimes, but the lighting is on ALL the time. Would the owner maybe be interested in upgrading to more efficient lighting to reduce the baseline load, and save some electricity in the process? LED T8 tubes? Not sure if that'll cost less than your solution or reduce the load enough depending on how many lights there are.


I went back and checked the loads yesterday evening, the other half of the service isn't too badly loaded, so I'm going to go ahead with the original plan. The lighting is all old t12s and I would like to replace it but they're not going to want to pay for that since it still works :-\ The root of the problem is a poorly done install, I guess they were too lazy to care how they ran the circuits and just brought everything to the closest panel. The work in there is horrible, ill post some before and after pics..


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

BBQ said:


> That is a great suggestion.
> 
> Another simple low buck, solution would be to interlock the one or two of refrigeration compressors with the air conditioning compressors so that anytime that refrigeration compressor is called on the air conditioning stops.
> 
> Of course this very well may make the place less comfortable but unless they want to spend the money to up grade the service they will have to drop some load. There really are no other options, less load or bigger service.


They barely keep it cool in there as it is, but that is a good idea. Either way they're holding on by a thread. Ill definitely try to sell the lighting upgrade though, that would be the biggest help and there would be a long term savings. Unfortunately a service upgrade is out of the question


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

put in a 400 amp main panel and sub feed the other panel with a 200


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Bbsound said:


> put in a 400 amp main panel and sub feed the other panel with a 200


Huh?


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## Bbsound (Dec 16, 2011)

Hippie said:


> Huh?


If you have an existing 200 amp panel that you believe is overloaded, replace it with a 400 amp main breaker panel, and associated feeder conductors.
Then get rid of the other 200 amp disconnect feeding the other panel and turn it into a sub panel, fed from the new 400 amp panel.

You then have all the power from the service available to all the AC compressor loads, and a heavier duty panel. 400 amps has to be a big enough service for a convenience store.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Bbsound said:


> If you have an existing 200 amp panel that you believe is overloaded, replace it with a 400 amp main breaker panel, and associated feeder conductors.
> Then get rid of the other 200 amp disconnect feeding the other panel and turn it into a sub panel, fed from the new 400 amp panel.
> 
> You then have all the power from the service available to all the AC compressor loads, and a heavier duty panel. 400 amps has to be a big enough service for a convenience store.


Oh ok, I was thinking you were saying to have a 400 and a 200 off the meter. That would work but I want to re use the existing breakers, I don't think they make a 400 amp QO panel


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

Actually I see that they do.. I've never seen one bigger than 200 that didn't use QOBs


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

get a new 400 amp panel with sub feed lugs for the 200amp.

dump the T12 lighting for sure.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hippie said:


> Actually I see that they do.. I've never seen one bigger than 200 that didn't use QOBs


That because if you get the job quoted the bolt on are a lot cheaper. Doesn't make sense but it is the way it is.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

Hippie said:


> I have a convenience store with a 400a single phase service. quote]
> 
> 
> That's your problem, It should be a 3 phase service. It's light commerical, and needs a 208Y. Pull one more feeder, change the panel, and get the poco to do the right thing.


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