# Sleeve ser through pvc????



## Johnnyp (Aug 7, 2019)

Got a question and I’m sure the guys that do heavy resi have a solution or run into this situation all the time. Is it acceptable to pipe down out the bottom of meter and lb in and sleeve the SER through to pipe. It would be just for looks rather than SER stabled on the house. I’m not sure if it would code complaint with the bend radius in the LB but I would upsize. Any tips or solutions that anyone has when you have ran into this? ideally I try to come in the the back of the meter if possible but we know not always the case especially with service changes. Thanks for any input hopefully you can vision what I was trying to explain!!!


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I do it all the time. I do it to protect the SE cable, because it looks better, and because it seals better than running the cable through a hole. 

I don’t upsize the LB, I use 1-1/4 inch PVC for #2 aluminum SE cable and 2 inch PVC for 4/0 aluminum SE cable. 

The 4/0 cable is a little hard to get through the LB, so I use the Racketiers LB shoehorn.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Technically it a raceway system which means fittings, boxes or enclosures at both ends but it is done all the time. Then you have to calculate conduit fill. One thing you have to be careful as mentioned above is bending radius. Some SER individual conductor insulation is very thin so be careful not to stress it. I have a picture of fire damage from bending the SEU too tight.


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## Johnnyp (Aug 7, 2019)

Now how about putting a female on the end of the conduit that enters the wall and threading a connector on the end and stripping the ser? But technically those wires are not rated without the jacket ?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

HackWork said:


> I do it all the time. I do it to protect the SE cable, because it looks better, and because it seals better than running the cable through a hole.
> 
> I don’t upsize the LB, I use 1-1/4 inch PVC for #2 aluminum SE cable and 2 inch PVC for 4/0 aluminum SE cable.
> 
> The 4/0 cable is a little hard to get through the LB, so I use the Racketiers LB shoehorn.


Yup, do it all time. A short nipple into the house and you're done. 

We have few DB's that want a female adapter and 2" squeeze tight SE connector where it comes out in the house/basement.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Technically it a raceway system which means fittings, boxes or enclosures at both ends but it is done all the time. Then you have to calculate conduit fill. One thing you have to be careful as mentioned above is bending radius. Some SER individual conductor insulation is very thin so be careful not to stress it. I have a picture of fire damage from bending the SEU too tight.


 It’s not a raceway because it is not complete. It is nothing more than a sleeve.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Johnnyp said:


> Now how about putting a female on the end of the conduit that enters the wall and threading a connector on the end and stripping the ser? But technically those wires are not rated without the jacket ?


I’ve seen it done this way by other Electrician. I consider it wasted time and material.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Yup, do it all time. A short nipple into the house and you're done.


 I have never put a nipple on the end, I always just put the LB hub into the wall. 


> We have few DB's that want a female adapter and 2" squeeze tight SE connector where it comes out in the house/basement.


 I’m not sure why they want that. You don’t need a connector when exiting a sleeve. If anything, you just created a different issue by installing a metal connector that is not bonded to anything.

I agree about them being DB’s.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I found it easier to get the cable through when doing it on a bench. Note: this is the customers basement, not mine.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

When I put a pvc lb up against an exterior wall, I cut the short hub clean off, and then I rub the rough edge where the hub was smooth by rubbing it back and forth on the closest concrete sidewalk or garage floor. Then I secure it to the wall using sheetrock screws for wood siding or tapcons for concrete and masonry walls. Lots of times I plaster some dap on the back side of the lb's prior to screwing them to the wall. It mushes out the sides into a perfect gasket. 


Only your hairdresser knows for sure............


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Johnnyp said:


> Got a question and I’m sure the guys that do heavy resi have a solution or run into this situation all the time. Is it acceptable to pipe down out the bottom of meter and lb in and sleeve the *SER through to pipe.* It would be just for looks rather than SER stabled on the house. I’m not sure if it would code complaint with the bend radius in the LB but I would upsize. Any tips or solutions that anyone has when you have ran into this? ideally I try to come in the the back of the meter if possible but we know not always the case especially with service changes. Thanks for any input hopefully you can vision what I was trying to explain!!!


 Are you continuing the run inside the residence? As opposed to stubbing into the panel through the wall?
There's no reason you can't sleeve the SER for protection purposes, but you can't run service conductors through the house, even in conduit. There are exceptions though. And yeah, you may have to upsize the LB.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> There's no reason you can't sleeve the SER for protection purposes, *but you can't run service conductors through the house, even in conduit*.


Of course you can. 

SE cable is run thru the PVC sleeve and thru the rim joist into the house. It is then routed down into the mail panel.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

joebanana said:


> Are you continuing the run inside the residence? As opposed to stubbing into the panel through the wall?
> There's no reason you can't sleeve the SER for protection purposes, but you can't run service conductors through the house, even in conduit. There are exceptions though. And yeah, you may have to upsize the LB.


You don't have to be stubbed through the wall into the back of the service disconnecting means/panel. You can come into the building with cable with or without a sleeve and enter the panel on the top. 

The distance from where it enters to the service disconnecting means should be kept to a minimum. 230.70(A) (1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest point of entrance of the service conductors. 

Commentary from NEC Handbook "No maximum distance between the point of entrance of service conductors to a readily accessible location for for the installation of a service disconnecting means is specified by 230.70(A)". 

It's up to the authority having jurisdiction to make the decision on how far inside the building the service entrance conductors are allowed to travel to the service disconnecting means. 

You might also want to check out 230.6 for conductors considered outside a building.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Johnnyp said:


> Now how about putting a female on the end of the conduit that enters the wall and threading a connector on the end and stripping the ser? *But technically those wires are not rated without the jacket ?*



Answered your ow question johnny boy!


That's on par with stripping romex to stick in a raceway.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I found it easier to get the cable through when doing it on a bench. Note: this is the customers basement, not mine.
> 
> View attachment 135624


Rubber mallet helps.....


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> Rubber mallet helps.....


Hmm, I bet it would. But I don't have one to try.

If you put the bend in the SE cable before putting it into the LB, then use the LB shoehorn, it goes in pretty easily. It's a bit of a fight, but not so bad. 

https://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/lb-wire-guide-wire-shoe-horn/


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> When I put a pvc lb up against an exterior wall, I cut the short hub clean off, and then I rub the rough edge where the hub was smooth by rubbing it back and forth on the closest concrete sidewalk or garage floor. Then I secure it to the wall using sheetrock screws for wood siding or tapcons for concrete and masonry walls. Lots of times I plaster some dap on the back side of the lb's prior to screwing them to the wall. It mushes out the sides into a perfect gasket.


 I use a very similar method. I use a step bit or the nested hole saws trick to cut it flush. I use enough duct seal that it makes a gasket. I don't use sheetrock screws though, because I hate them; yet I also hate tapcons, the sheet rock screw of masonry, and I do occasionally use those. 



I used to think sheetrock screws rust very quickly but now I think sheetrock screws are made of rust with a very thin finish that is almost gone by the time you're done driving the screw.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> When I put a pvc lb up against an exterior wall, I cut the short hub clean off, and then I rub the rough edge where the hub was smooth by rubbing it back and forth on the closest concrete sidewalk or garage floor. Then I secure it to the wall using sheetrock screws for wood siding or tapcons for concrete and masonry walls. Lots of times I plaster some dap on the back side of the lb's prior to screwing them to the wall. It mushes out the sides into a perfect gasket.
> 
> 
> Only your hairdresser knows for sure............


Why do you do that?

I drill a 2-9/16" hole about 1.5" deep into the concrete or the rim joist and push the hub into it. I then drill a smaller hole the rest of the way thru for the SE cable. 

The hub helps seal it, IMO. Some silicone slathered on the hug and where it meets the LB makes a great seal.

Another reason to leave the hub is because sometimes the LB is not up tight against the building. Or when there is shingle style siding/shakes that you are going thru, part of the LB will be away from the house.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Hmm, I bet it would. But I don't have one to try.
> 
> If you put the bend in the SE cable before putting it into the LB, then use the LB shoehorn, it goes in pretty easily. It's a bit of a fight, but not so bad.
> 
> https://www.rack-a-tiers.com/product/lb-wire-guide-wire-shoe-horn/



:thumbsup:

If I'm going to go back to work I will pick one of those up.


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## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

yes LB, sometimes screwcover box, especially if covering ragged hole in masonary


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

readydave8 said:


> yes LB, *sometimes screwcover box*, especially if covering ragged hole in masonary




Ah, a fellow 'planner'!

:thumbup:


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

flyboy said:


> You don't have to be stubbed through the wall into the back of the service disconnecting means/panel. You can come into the building with cable with or without a sleeve and enter the panel on the top.
> 
> The distance from where it enters to the service disconnecting means should be kept to a minimum. 230.70(A) (1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest point of entrance of the service conductors.
> 
> ...


That's what I was referring to, 230.6. It's been many years since I've come across this situation but I remember a reno where the panel was moved into an interior wall, and the conduit, from where it entered the building, to the panel, ran through a "semi-basement" and the AHJ said it couldn't go through the building like that unless it was covered with brick or concrete. That was the "exception" I was referring to. He said if there was a fuseable disco before it entered the building, it would be okay. Might have been a local thing, I don't remember.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why do you do that?
> 
> I drill a 2-9/16" hole about 1.5" deep into the concrete or the rim joist and push the hub into it. I then drill a smaller hole the rest of the way thru for the SE cable.
> 
> ...



It's a Hawaii thing....... lets say I'm running a branch circuit for an air conditioning unit in one of our many thousands of older houses built before 1995. 
I will run it thru attic, pop out at the bird block using an lb, run the uf inside pvc down to where the ac receptacle goes, add another lb with the hub cut clean off secured to the wall as I reported, and then drilled thru the exterior wall back into the backside of the surface outlet box for the ac , because that thar wall is only 5/8" thick redwood tongue and groove , even on the exterior walls. We also have to use 3/4" screws to hold the two hole pvc straps on the outside wall, cause anything longer is going to poke thru to the inside of the house........... 

When we do back to back from a meter to a surface panel , the same deal applies- a very short nipple has to go between the panels and the meter / main. 
For 2" close nipples it will generally work ok , but the plastic bushing is a bit of a hack since you will only get maybe one full thread after the inside locknut is put on. Planet Macmikeman is a very different place than anywhere you have ever worked on.......... 

Think of it like this: That lb hub will poke right thru into the living room in some cases if you were to drill the bigger hole and fit the whole hub thru....
The Emperor of Japan will be very upset.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> It's a Hawaii thing....... lets say I'm running a branch circuit for an air conditioning unit in one of our many thousands of older houses built before 1995.
> I will run it thru attic, pop out at the bird block using an lb, run the uf inside pvc down to where the ac receptacle goes, add another lb with the hub cut clean off secured to the wall as I reported, and then drilled thru the exterior wall back into the backside of the surface outlet box for the ac , because that thar wall is only 5/8" thick redwood tongue and groove , even on the exterior walls. We also have to use 3/4" screws to hold the two hole pvc straps on the outside wall, cause anything longer is going to poke thru to the inside of the house...........
> When we do back to back from a meter to a surface panel , the same deal applies- a very short nipple has to go between the panels and the meter / main.
> For 2" close nipples it will generally work ok , but the plastic bushing is a bit of a hack since you will only get maybe one full thread after the inside locknut is put on. Planet Macmikeman is a very different place than anywhere you have ever worked on..........
> ...


 I see. It's because the wall is thin and you are putting a box on the inside of the sheathing. 

I have had to cut the hub off of LB's in similar situations, such as LBing into the back of a panel in a detached garage in which there is only a thin layer of sheathing.

But in normal wall situations, especially with services, I find leaving the hub on the LB makes everything more rigid and gives far more surface area to seal.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> It’s not a raceway because it is not complete. It is nothing more than a sleeve.


I am sorry I should have been more precise. If there is a box connector or terminal adapter at the meter pan then it is the beginning of a raceway system and the raceway system should be continued. Around here it is only considered a sleeve if there is no direct connect to a box. As I also said, it is done all the time. I highly doubt if anybody would flag it. Also one should check with the cable manufacturer to see if it is rated for the PVC LB and the banding radius.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> I am sorry I should have been more precise. If there is a box connector or terminal adapter at the meter pan then it is the beginning of a raceway system and the raceway system should be continued. Around here it is only considered a sleeve if there is no direct connect to a box. As I also said, it is done all the time. I highly doubt if anybody would flag it. Also one should check with the cable manufacturer to see if it is rated for the PVC LB and the banding radius.


 As far as the NEC, it is only a raceway if it is complete. A sleeve can be attached to a box in some way. As an example, we sleeve romex into surface mounted boxes on basement walls by attaching a piece of EMT to the box with a connector and put a bushing on the other end. It’s a sleeve, not a raceway, since it is not completed on both ends. 

Hell, the NEC won’t even allow you to install wire into a raceway unless it is complete.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> As far as the NEC, it is only a raceway if it is complete. A sleeve can be attached to a box in some way. As an example, we sleeve romex into surface mounted boxes on basement walls by attaching a piece of EMT to the box with a connector and put a bushing on the other end. It’s a sleeve, not a raceway, since it is not completed on both ends.
> 
> Hell, the NEC won’t even allow you to install wire into a raceway unless it is complete.


As an example, we sleeve romex into surface mounted boxes on basement walls by attaching a piece of EMT to the box with a connector and put a bushing on the other end.

You say bushing I said fitting. Can you install the romex and EMT without the "bushing" on the open end? No. All I was trying to say is you need something on both ends. A sleeve has no box or fitting at both ends.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> As an example, we sleeve romex into surface mounted boxes on basement walls by attaching a piece of EMT to the box with a connector and put a bushing on the other end.
> 
> You say bushing I said fitting. Can you install the romex and EMT without the "bushing" on the open end? No. All I was trying to say is you need something on both ends. A sleeve has no box or fitting at both ends.


It doesn't matter whether a bushing is called a fitting or not. Its not a raceway, it's a sleeve, just like a piece of plumbing pipe or the cavity between a few pieces of wood. It is there for protection and not to serve as a raceway. You can use a garden hose without a bushing.


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