# Fastening Plywood to Block Walls



## JHFWIC (Mar 22, 2012)

I like the Tapcons 2" should work.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

JHFWIC said:


> I like the Tapcons 2" should work.


I don't have much luck using Tapcons in block. They most of the time never tighten and are loose. I do like them in solid concrete though.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I stock 1¼" drive pins on the truck and have never had any problems using them.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I use 1/4" x 2" nail in mushrooms, strong and they don't stick out which is nice. Only thing is you want to be fairly sure you get it right the first time, they are not easy to remove. These make it very quick and easy for one person to hang a sheet, you don't need three hands.


----------



## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

I still use lead anchors with a hollow wall set. Still seems to work.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

A Little Short said:


> It's been a while since I mounted plywood to a block wall and I can't remember the length of the sleeve anchors I used. I saw that one brand says to add 1" to the thickness of whatever you're mounting to the block. But I don't know if that applies to every brand.
> 
> So what length for 3/4" plywood?
> 
> Also, drive pin or the type with a nut that tightens to hold it in?


Everything here is block.
If you are going to use tap ones, use 1/4" X 
2-1/4" to 2-1/2" with 1/4" fender washers. 

If it's a full sheet, 4' OC along the edges. 

Or even better 3/8"X 2-1/2" sleeve anchors maybe only one in each corner


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

I use a Ramset D60 with 2" washer head pins on block or poured concrete.


----------



## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Smaller tapcons are not meant for block. They will strip out.

I switched to Hilti anchors. Way better than tapcons. Same price too. The only drawback is they don't sell them at hardware stores. 

These Hilti anchors are designed specifically for concrete block or CMU.
https://www.hilti.ca/anchor-systems/screw-anchors/r4800


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> I don't have much luck using Tapcons in block. They most of the time never tighten and are loose. I do like them in solid concrete though.


I never encountered a problem using Tapcons in block walls. I should say rarely.
If you are having problems with stripping out holes, use a small socket and ratchet. Works great and you can be more careful about over tightening.



splatz said:


> I use 1/4" x 2" nail in mushrooms, strong and they don't stick out which is nice. Only thing is you want to be fairly sure you get it right the first time, they are not easy to remove. These make it very quick and easy for one person to hang a sheet, you don't need three hands.


I like "nail ins" too! Was all we used for many years until the Tapcons came out.
Oh a chisel and hammer makes removal quite easy. Wear gloves!



3DDesign said:


> I use a Ramset D60 with 2" washer head pins on block or poured concrete.


I can count with one hand how many times I have used a ramset.
They are not required or needed and it seems its more of a "look at me" type of tool than anything else.
Awful loud too. Totally unnecessary.
Easy to blow out the block too.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Man I have to teach you guys everything huh? For Concrete masonry units- (Block walls) you use toggle bolts with washers and you make sure to drill the center of the cells. If the spot you drill is filled in with grout then move to another spot.....


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Another vote for TapCons. I use around a 2" phillips head countersink screw. The size that uses the 3/16" drill bit. They bite so tightly that they pull themselves right in flush.

I can't remember the last time I have a problem with them regardless if it is in block, poured or brick. Stone, like solid bluestone, is about the only thing that is a bit too hard for them.


----------



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

3DDesign said:


> I use a Ramset D60 with 2" washer head pins on block or poured concrete.


I haven't even looked at my Ramset gun in probably 10-15 years.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ramsets are the fast way to hang stuff, just kinda sloppy. So if you are working concrete all day long and not using a ramset gun you are not going to keep up. The emt straps with the pin attached are superior in every which way to using tapcons when you have to install hundreds of them. Same goes for attaching 4 square boxes to concrete walls and ceilings, the tapcons take 5 times longer than using a Ramset with an auto feed. 

For occasional work, Tapcons are terrific.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

The old Hilti DX 35 is awesome for concrete and steel... a fantastic time saver.

It's too much for CBU. I'm with macmikeman: ungrouted CBU needs toggles.

If the entire wall has been grouted (typical for grocers) then the DX 35 or DX-A41 -- low power -- is slick as snot.

The ITW // Ramset T3 is the cat's pajamas... making most powder driven tools obsolete.

A worn out tungsten carbide masonry bit is the biggest factor causing Tapcon failure, that or using a size too large by mistake.

The other hitch is that Tapcons are brittle -- due to hardening -- you must not use an impact driver to set them. 

I saw one dingbat break off Tapcons over and over -- he couldn't take a hint. They were biting in so hard that they popped their heads off.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I rarely attach plywood directly to the block. I usually run 2 PT strip of 2x4 or 1x4 and attach the plywood to the boards


----------



## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

macmikeman said:


> Ramsets are the fast way to hang stuff, just kinda sloppy. So if you are working concrete all day long and not using a ramset gun you are not going to keep up. The emt straps with the pin attached are superior in every which way to using tapcons when you have to install hundreds of them. Same goes for attaching 4 square boxes to concrete walls and ceilings, the tapcons take 5 times longer than using a Ramset with an auto feed.
> 
> For occasional work, Tapcons are terrific.


In my mind the trouble with using powder actuated fasteners, or drive pins for that matter, for installing boxes and straps, is the difficulty in removing them. So if anything changes as a project progresses, you've got a real struggle on your hands. And the poor bastard who has to demo it in a future renovation will curse you no end (not that you care about that).

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

B-Nabs said:


> In my mind the trouble with using powder actuated fasteners, or drive pins for that matter, for installing boxes and straps, is the difficulty in removing them. So if anything changes as a project progresses, you've got a real struggle on your hands. And the poor bastard who has to demo it in a future renovation will curse you no end (not that you care about that).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Having been tasked with doing exactly that -- countless times -- I can tell you that it's a snap to un-mount minor materials from concrete.

You tap the j-box or strap from the side, then back across from the other side...

Sometimes a cold chisel// masonry chisel is needed to get the blows where they need to go. (one-hole strap pins)

After a few taps -- to and fro -- the nearby concrete 'fails' and the pin works loose.

A small pry bar is also a handy tool for such efforts.

If a bit of the old pin is left behind -- embedded into the concrete -- it's no biggie. 

This procedure is actually quite fast. :thumbup:

Of course, you're over stating the need to remove raceways. Even in a hefty re-model little old work, so fastened, is ever removed. The typical job re-purposes every EMT run that is existing -- to the extent possible.

If the removal leaves visible 'sins' -- a touch of hydraulic cement patches them up PDQ. Its cure time is ultra quick. It also doubles as a water barrier.


----------



## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

telsa said:


> Having been tasked with doing exactly that -- countless times -- I can tell you that it's a snap to un-mount minor materials from concrete.
> 
> You tap the j-box or strap from the side, then back across from the other side...
> 
> ...


 This works great...










http://gmptools.com/nf/06796.htm


----------



## Eddie702 (Aug 7, 2015)

I like sleeve anchors the best. I use the 5/16 diameter with the 1/4-20 thread for minerlac or straps assemble them to the strap ahead of time, put them in your pouch and the parts stay together drill the hole, tap them in and tighten with a nut driver. Done. 

I like nail ins too. I would use the 3/8 sleeve anchors or nail ins for the plywood


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

tap-cons are great, if you know how and when to use them. in concrete block you need to hit the center if the 'rib' in normal block ,which is the solid part that goes all the way to other side of the block. in the hollow part, they usually dont hold, especialy in the lower half of the block where it is thinner.


----------



## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

and yes, a worn or 'no tip' bit will get bad results! also, make sure your hammerdrill is on hammer AND drill!


----------



## Galt (Sep 11, 2013)

11/4 in. pins yellow powder loads snug snug snug.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have a Hilti DX 451. It is very quiet, has an adjustable power setting and only uses two load sizes. Black for steel and red for concrete. 

As for toggle bolts in CMU, I think it's total hack to smash a hole in block and then struggle with a friggin toggle bolt when there are so many superior alternatives for anchors.
Every time I find a toggle bolt on wall install during a demo job it's a rage fest to deal with and looks like someone from outside our trade installed it.
Screw that. 

If you can't figure out how to install tapcons and are resistant to sleeve anchors, go old school and use a hollow wall set and 1/4-20s

http://www.zoro.com/greenlee-screw-...gclid=CP_q9YmyusgCFUqRHwoduVEAOQ&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I hate tapcons, but if the problem is snapping them off, the key is to get the dust out of the hole. If I am going to use them, I carry a can of canned air. The dust is going to come shooting out so try not to have your face in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

I just don't think concrete is a predictable material at the tolerances required for tapcons, if you wobble the least bit while drilling, or the material just crumbles a little, it is going to pull out. 

Now those big Tapcon bolts, they look like the Hilti ones above, those are fine, bigger threads and enough meat to the shaft that you can crank on it.


----------



## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

splatz said:


> I use 1/4" x 2" nail in mushrooms, strong and they don't stick out which is nice. Only thing is you want to be fairly sure you get it right the first time, they are not easy to remove. These make it very quick and easy for one person to hang a sheet, you don't need three hands.


This!


----------



## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

I don't understand the love for Tapcons. I've tried them a few times and they sucked.

I also don't like drive pins. I spend too much of my time taking things apart so I like removability. 

I dig sleeve anchors. The block is about 1.5" thick so that plus your ply for a min length.


----------



## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

Tapcons are my choice. They work well is cement blocks & cement floors or walls. Tapcons do not hold well in cinder blocks however. The blocks are to solf. 
http://www.ehow.com/facts_6190293_difference-cinder-block-concrete-block_.html

My technique for an install, say a 4x4 box, or panel or backer board. Mark one hole, drill with proper tapcon bit, which is smaller than the tapcon being used. Secure device with one tapcon then level the device. Without removing the device, drill and secure another tapcon. This method creates a pilot hole for the second hole, because we all know that when drilling cement blocks the bit wants to walk from the spot we want to drill. 

Since the bit is smaller than the tapcon screw there is no need to remove what is being secured to a wall to install another anchor.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

220/221 said:


> I don't understand the love for Tapcons. I've tried them a few times and they sucked.
> 
> I also don't like drive pins. I spend too much of my time taking things apart so I like removability.
> 
> I dig sleeve anchors. The block is about 1.5" thick so that plus your ply for a min length.


I'm with you. There must be a trick with Tapcons I don't know about. Sleeve anchors are the cat's a$$. More money than a Tapcon, no doubt.


----------



## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

99cents said:


> I'm with you. There must be a trick with Tapcons I don't know about. Sleeve anchors are the cat's a$$. More money than a Tapcon, no doubt.



It isn't hard, I see guys using smaller tapcons in block. Even tapcon says don't do it. Then they blast the tapcon in with the impact driver on full rip. No cleaning out the hole either. 
It's funny watching them swear and blame the tapcons though!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> Man I have to teach you guys everything huh? For Concrete masonry units- (Block walls) you use toggle bolts with washers and you make sure to drill the center of the cells. If the spot you drill is filled in with grout then move to another spot.....


Toggle bolts IMO are the biggest hack fastener you can use. First the hole you HAVE to make is way to big. Gotta get that gigantic toggle in there after all. :whistling2:
Second it takes forever to run the screw in while holding back on it so it doesn't spin.
I absolutely hate toggle bolts. Even for drywall. I prefer "molly's" for drywall. 



papaotis said:


> tap-cons are great, if you know how and when to use them. in concrete block you need to hit the center if the 'rib' in normal block ,which is the solid part that goes all the way to other side of the block. in the hollow part, they usually dont hold, especialy in the lower half of the block where it is thinner.


I disagree. Tapcons can be used anywhere on the block except the joints.
Solid or hollow. They work just fine.
In most cases where we have issues, its not the product, but the person using the product.
I guess we all get familiar with a product and tend to use it over other products. We get comfortable.



Wpgshocker said:


> It isn't hard, I see guys using smaller tapcons in block. Even tapcon says don't do it. Then they blast the tapcon in with the impact driver on full rip. No cleaning out the hole either.
> It's funny watching them swear and blame the tapcons though!


 That was my earlier point.
I keep use a 1/4" ratchet and socket for running in Tapcons in block and in solid concrete.
One thing I learned is not to drive them in with a drill driver. Do it by hand and eliminate the possibility of stripping out the hole.
The small ratchet and socket fit into a pocket easily.

I do understand that the original Tapcons came with a drill driver you drill the hole and drive the fastener without having to change out the bit.
I have not seen that kit in years. Maybe they realized the drill driver was a mistake?


----------



## Arc'n'Spark (Jul 21, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Toggle bolts IMO are the biggest hack fastener you can use. First the hole you HAVE to make is way to big. Gotta get that gigantic toggle in there after all. :whistling2: Second it takes forever to run the screw in while holding back on it so it doesn't spin. I absolutely hate toggle bolts. Even for drywall. I prefer "molly's" for drywall. I disagree. Tapcons can be used anywhere on the block except the joints. Solid or hollow. They work just fine. In most cases where we have issues, its not the product, but the person using the product. I guess we all get familiar with a product and tend to use it over other products. We get comfortable. That was my earlier point. I keep use a 1/4" ratchet and socket for running in Tapcons in block and in solid concrete. One thing I learned is not to drive them in with a drill driver. Do it by hand and eliminate the possibility of stripping out the hole. The small ratchet and socket fit into a pocket easily. I do understand that the original Tapcons came with a drill driver you drill the hole and drive the fastener without having to change out the bit. I have not seen that kit in years. Maybe they realized the drill driver was a mistake?


I use tapcons and a condrive all the time. The condrive works great in a cordless SDS. That said, I have used 3/8" toggles in block for mounting heavy equipment where I couldn't bolt through the block for whatever reason. I don't see what the big deal is about having to drill a bigger hole in the block for a toggle bolt.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I think you guys are having problems with 3/16" tapcons.
I use 1/4" tapcons on a daily basis and have so few problems that I cant remember anything specific recently. 

Pro tip:

YOU HAVE TO USE THE BIT THEY CAME WITH

Good Day


----------



## triden (Jun 13, 2012)

jrannis said:


> I think you guys are having problems with 3/16" tapcons.
> I use 1/4" tapcons on a daily basis and have so few problems that I cant remember anything specific recently.
> 
> Pro tip:
> ...


I never use that crap bit. I have a nice Bosch SDS bit that never wants to die.


----------



## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

triden said:


> I never use that crap bit. I have a nice Bosch SDS bit that never wants to die.



Bosch has a nice tapcon kit for 3/16 and 1/4.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## metalpats (Apr 11, 2011)

Wpgshocker said:


> Bosch has a nice tapcon kit for 3/16 and 1/4.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dewalt and itw have it to, it's call a condrive


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

metalpats said:


> dewalt and itw have it to, it's call a condrive


This is what we use but I put a regular 5/16" tip on mine


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Arc'n'Spark said:


> I use tapcons and a condrive all the time. The condrive works great in a cordless SDS. That said, I have used 3/8" toggles in block for mounting heavy equipment where I couldn't bolt through the block for whatever reason. I don't see what the big deal is about having to drill a bigger hole in the block for a toggle bolt.


Like I said. The first Tapcons or whatever they called the first ones came with the drill and the driver all in one tool. Like the pictures being shown.
My personal experience is when I do have a failure, its driving the screw with the drill driver. Using a 1/4" socket and ratchet eliminates stripping out a hole.
To me, its worth the extra step.

As far as toggle bolts. Can you tell me what size hole you must make for a 1/4" toggle bolt? Thats one big hole for a 1/4" bolt. Not to mention them spinning behind the wall until you get them snugged up. 
I will concur, if the load is heavy enough, than a toggle bolt may be your best choice.
I just plain don't like them. Its only because of the big hole required and the spinning of the toggle behind the wall.
There is no doubt they are quite strong.


----------



## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Like I said. The first Tapcons or whatever they called the first ones came with the drill and the driver all in one tool. Like the pictures being shown.
> My personal experience is when I do have a failure, its driving the screw with the drill driver. Using a 1/4" socket and ratchet eliminates stripping out a hole.
> To me, its worth the extra step.
> 
> ...


 I have used these to hang pay phones. None of the problems of a regular toggle bolt.



http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Ty Wrapp said:


> I have used these to hang pay phones. None of the problems of a regular toggle bolt.
> 
> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php


:thumbsup: The only toggle I'll use.


----------



## telsa (May 22, 2015)

Ty Wrapp said:


> I have used these to hang pay phones. None of the problems of a regular toggle bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php



Pay phone... what's that ?


----------



## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

A Little Short said:


> It's been a while since I mounted plywood to a block wall and I can't remember the length of the sleeve anchors I used. I saw that one brand says to add 1" to the thickness of whatever you're mounting to the block. But I don't know if that applies to every brand.
> 
> So what length for 3/4" plywood?
> 
> Also, drive pin or the type with a nut that tightens to hold it in?


Lags and shields. 

We like to drill (2) 5/8" holes for the shields (the hole size is marked on the shield itself). Then we drill 1 1/4" holes about 75% through a pressure treated 2x4 before drilling a 1/2" hole for the lag screw to fit snug through the 2x4. Then we hand tighten the lag through the wood and attach the shield on the other side. Then we install it on the wall and tighten that baby down. Works every time. 

Then we mount the plywood to the 2x4's.


----------



## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

telsa said:


> Pay phone... what's that ?


That was back in the 1980's

The summer of 2011 I must have removed 1 per day.


----------



## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

Ty Wrapp said:


> I have used these to hang pay phones. None of the problems of a regular toggle bolt.
> http://www.toggler.com/products/snaptoggle/overview.php


Looks very good. Never used them before.
I will try them next time i have a need.
Have you ever used "molly's"?


----------



## Ty Wrapp (Aug 24, 2011)

John Valdes said:


> Looks very good. Never used them before.
> I will try them next time i have a need.
> Have you ever used "molly's"?


All the time...usually on wall phones that don't have a prewire box.

Also the screws from a molly works well to attach a jack (or a device ) to the junction box when the supplied screw is not long enough.


----------



## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

Tapcons. I have that same Bosch kit.


----------

