# 2 phase elevator switch



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

It's been a while since I've been in here. I'm working in a 90 year old giant bank refitting it into offices. I'm in Philly so it's the old 2 phase with no plan on changing it any time soon. I don't know exactly what this switch was for but it's neat. It was filled with what I assume was PCB oil. 
Chris


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

Momentary start stop switch. Pretty primitive. Just little copper bars. No contacts.


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

Here's a few lamp holders. The square one had a fuse adapter, and was being used as an in line fuse. The other one goes in a condolet. I don't know how that works code wise. I know your not supposed to make splices in condolets. Probably still not legal. 
Chris


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Cool stuff. That old stuff fascinates me, you definitely don't see 2 phase much anymore. 

Are the panels in the building the old slate panels?


----------



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

can you still get those porcelin lamp holders for condulets? neat pics though - cool momentary switch


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2009)

They look like old plug fuse holders to me and CEC says its OK to use them but I have never see one in my hands and I would think a light would fit in the same type of holder nicely so they can make one holder for lights and lager fuses and smaller holders for smaller lights and fuses and so on.
Oh and CEC say max plug fuse is 125V and I think the max amps is 30.
I for one don't think it should be OK to have a fuse holder hold a light I can just see now all the old farmers using a light to replace a fuse but then again he would have a hell of a voltage drop over the light and his load so nothing bad would come of it.


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> They look like old plug fuse holders to me and CEC says its OK to use them but I have never see one in my hands and I would think a light would fit in the same type of holder nicely so they can make one holder for lights and lager fuses and smaller holders for smaller lights and fuses and so on.
> Oh and CEC say max plug fuse is 125V and I think the max amps is 30.
> I for one don't think it should be OK to have a fuse holder hold a light I can just see now all the old farmers using a light to replace a fuse but then again he would have a hell of a voltage drop over the light and his load so nothing bad would come of it.


The square one is a fuse holder, while the oblong condulet body style is a lamp holder. Look at the tabs in the center. Almost all fuse holders have a solid button in the bottom, while light sockets have a spring tab.

The NEC limits plug fuses to 30 A max, and 125 V to ground, or 250 V line to line.


----------



## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

Hope ya got rid of that oil properly, it's nasty stuff!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2009)

InPhase277 said:


> Almost all fuse holders have a solid button in the bottom, while light sockets have a spring tab.
> 
> I did not know that good to now thanks


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

I just dumped the oil in the grass. NOT. My friends father used to have everyone save there oil so he could spread it on the gravel roads leading to his cabin. I save the oil in a container. I'll assume it's PCB oil. I don't know that it is, but to be on the safe side I assumed it was. 
Chris


----------



## FitzgeraldSpectorInc (Aug 7, 2009)

That is a big issue with electrical applications in Philly... the 2 to 3 phase conversions... Dongan Tranformers makes a transformer that converts 2 phase to three phase that might be able to help you out. Here is a link to their PA sales rep's websitehttp://www.smoke-signal.us/fitz/productlines/dongan-electric-mfg-co/


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I love that old equipment.:wheelchair:


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

FitzgeraldSpectorInc said:


> That is a big issue with electrical applications in Philly... the 2 to 3 phase conversions... Dongan Tranformers makes a transformer that converts 2 phase to three phase that might be able to help you out. Here is a link to their PA sales rep's website http://www.smoke-signal.us/fitz/productlines/dongan-electric-mfg-co/


I finished that job about 5 months ago. They didn't want to spend the money to change everything to 3 Phase.
The elevator guys put a small coverter in just big enough for their equipment. 
Chris


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

bigredc222 said:


> I finished that job about 5 months ago. They didn't want to spend the money to change everything to 3 Phase.
> The elevator guys put a small coverter in just big enough for their equipment.
> Chris


I have heard there was still a two phase distribution in Philly. What kind of panel boards do you use? I mean, are there modern two phase panels?

P.S.: I guess the 2-phase three-wire system would use a single phase board. Is the Philly system 2-phase three-wire, or is it 2-phase five-wire?


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> I have heard there was still a two phase distribution in Philly. What kind of panel boards do you use? I mean, are there modern two phase panels?
> 
> P.S.: I guess the 2-phase three-wire system would use a single phase board. Is the Philly system 2-phase three-wire, or is it 2-phase five-wire?


 
The two phase system do come in three flavours .,,

Three conductor set up the middle is common phase { it is not a *netrual *} 
Four conductor set up 
Five conductor set up { this set up do have netrual in there }

There are very few exsting location still have two phase supply but that pretty much history for majorty of the area but normally to get the two phase supply working you will need either M-G set up or Scott Tee transfomer set up.
The other nice gotcha with two phase three conductor set up as I mention above no netural on common conductor however the current will be higher than other two phase conductors will be IIRC 1.41 X and you really have to watch the polorty very carefull when you hook them up otherwise you will get magic smoke no question asked.
{ Been there and done that }

Merci,Marc


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

frenchelectrican said:


> The two phase system do come in three flavours .,,
> 
> Three conductor set up the middle is common phase { it is not a *netrual *}
> Four conductor set up
> ...


Right, I forgot the 2-phase four-wire, which I don't imagine is used, since there is no way to ground it without creating a 3-wire system.

But at any rate, what kind of modern equipment controls these systems? The 3-wire system I would imagine could use a single phase panel. But what about the five wire system? You'd need a 4-pole main, and four bus bars. Does some copany make these custom just for Philly?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

InPhase277 said:


> Does some copany make these custom just for Philly?


Philadelphia and Niagra are the only two areas where I consistently hear of vintage two-phase systems still in use. Elevators chief among them. The only two-phase anything I've ever seen was an elevator. It had a really nice brass plaque on it that said, "Conestoga Elevator Company". I had to wonder if it wasn't the Conestoga Wagon Company turned elevator maker when people quit buying wagons?


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

I knew this would be a lot of typing so I had to wait till I had time. 
The system I was working on and everything I've come across in Philly was 5 wire.

Yes you can still get almost whatever you want in 2 phase if your pockets are deep enough. 

We use a place called Penn Panel. They make whatever you want. BUT like I said it isn't cheap. Any motor shop can rewire a motor to 2 phase if you needed that.
The regular supply house can get disconnects. One of the disconnects that had been added on not more than 5 years ago was a 4 pole 200 amp. 
It looked like the took a 400 amp box and mounted two 200 amp two pole fusable disconnect guts inside, then tied them together. Getting the door latch and the on/off looked a little involved but beyond that there wasn't much to it. 
One of the knife blade panels that was in a recessed box in a stairwell had to be replaced with breakers. The box was only maybe 4" deep, so a rep. from Penn Panel came out and took some measurements and made us a set of panel guts to fit. Then they had to make what is basically an extension ring for the box with a door mounted on it. Their work is so nice. That door worked better than the new regular doors that you get with every other panel. You know how you have to slam them or pull on the lever as you close it. This thing closed like a car door.
This is the panel. I hung it in my basement. 









Most of the time the sub panels fed from a 2 phase services are just single phase, unless it needs to feed a motor.

This is what I saw when I got to that job.

















Look at the black disc on the left. It's a 3 pole. They soldered a copper bar on the center fuse holder and ran the neutral through it.










There was a clogged drain pipe from a roof drain. That's what caused the leak that must have been dripping on this trough for ???? Who knows, maybe decades. 











It was still leaking whenever it rained. I kept telling them they had to figure it out or the new service wasn't getting built. I bet that took 3 months. It wasn't till the job was getting pretty far along and I hadn't done anything with the old service and they tried to get on me about why I hadn't done anything yet. I told them again I'm not doing any work till the leak was fixed. It wasn't till I told them the inspector wouldn't pass it even if I built it, did they finally figure out why it was leaking. UNBELIEVABLE.
This was the biggest sh_t hole I ever worked in.
I can't find any pictures of what I did. The print said to just remove it all. There was still 2 tenants in the building, a bank and a credit union. I turned off the disc. with the copper bar in it, and the credit union went down. 
Long story short on that. I spent the next week figuring out what it all did. (charged them for it) It did all come out in the end. It cleaned up ok.
The CT cabinet and the 4 pole 400 amp disconnect stayed. We fed a 12X12 trough with the 400 a disc. out of that each set of wires fed a single phase 400 amp panel. 
I managed to keep the load pretty well balanced. If I find the finished pictures I'll post them.


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

I could only post 5 pictures at a time. here's more of the old panel.









Each knife had the hot and the neutral. A phase one side of the panel B phase on the other. Just a single phase panel.









Most of the time the sub panels fed from a 2 phase services are just single phase, unless it needs to feed a motor.









I wonder how much granet they break. That's so many holes to drill without cracking the whole thing. This was built about 1910. It very possable could have been done by hand with a star drill. Imagine that!!


----------



## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

That's just badass. I love that old ancient stuff. We need more posts like that.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

how much does that weigh ?


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

about 5 pounds. Oh, wait a minute. That's a henweigh.


----------



## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

Great pictures. That panel looks great in your basement. Those slate backboards are tremendously heavy. Good for you taking the time to save it. The only old panel I've seen that was cooler (and only by a slight margin) had a marble back board and the circuit numbers were stamped on the bus.


----------



## bigredc222 (Oct 23, 2007)

It's pretty darn heavy. Just guessing about 125 to 150 lbs. Most of the weight is the granite not the copper. Marbel would be cool. The numbers are stamped in the buss on this one. I guess you saw that.
Chris


----------



## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> about 5 pounds. Oh, wait a minute. That's a henweigh.


I think they average closer to 7 lbs.


----------



## jahaiap (Sep 3, 2009)

bigredc222 said:


> Here's a few lamp holders. The square one had a fuse adapter, and was being used as an in line fuse. The other one goes in a condolet. I don't know how that works code wise. I know your not supposed to make splices in condolets. Probably still not legal.


If it is marked with a cu. inch volume you can fill accordingly.


----------

