# Arc faults everywhere !!!



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Here's what all the fuss is about:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The biggest puzzle, for me, is why this proposal comes from P&S and not Eaton. Eaton did file comments that they are in favor of this change. (No kidding.)


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## K&R (Jan 22, 2007)

Looks like with the copper prices and the fact that every circuit may change from a $3 breaker to a $32 breaker the electrical may end up being 50% of the cost to build the house. Will be nice explaining why the price of a 200 amp service went up from $2,000.00 to $2,500.00


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Has anyone seen a combination AFCI breaker on the market? I know that UL has two listings one for Square D and one for Siemens, but I haven't seen either one on the market.

I don't like this change due to the fact that there isn't a working combination type of AFCI breaker on the market yet, so what does the Code making panel do? They up and expand the AFCI requirements to include the majority of the dwelling unit 125 volt 15 and 20 amp circuits. 

On a side note we will have to use the combination type AFCI breakers beginning January 1st of 2008, due to the requirements in the 2005 NEC that allow use to use the branch-circuit feeder type until that date.

Chris:rockon:


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## robertwilber (Jan 22, 2007)

K&R said:


> Looks like with the copper prices and the fact that every circuit may change from a $3 breaker to a $32 breaker the electrical may end up being 50% of the cost to build the house. Will be nice explaining why the price of a 200 amp service went up from $2,000.00 to $2,500.00


The more the merrier ..


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## K&R (Jan 22, 2007)

2-142 Log #3488 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept
(210.12(B))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Alan Manche, Square D Co.
Recommendation: Revise 210.12(B) as shown below:
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch
circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit s bedrooms shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to
provide protection of the branch circuit. Branch/feeder AFCIs shall be
permitted to be used to meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1,
2008.
Substantiation: For the past three NEC cycles, CMP 2 has reviewed extensive
amounts of data and information pertaining to the benefit of AFCIs for the
protection of dwelling unit branch circuits. After careful consideration the
panel decided to required AFCIs on branch circuits that supplied bedrooms as a
means to gain experience and to put the application in an easily defined area.
AFCIs have had an excellent track record in the field and their installation/use
have found numerous wiring errors and in addition they have found wiring
damage and equipment damage that could have been potential sources of fire.
With the experience gained, it is an appropriate time to expand AFCIs to all 15
and 20 ampere branch circuits in the dwelling. There is no basis for limiting the
protection to circuits that supply only bedrooms and the increased protection is
needed for other circuits. This expansion will continue the effort to address
fires of electrical origin in dwellings.
The text has been modified to apply to all 120V 15 and 20 ampere branch
circuits that supply outlets in all locations. The second paragraph is proposed to
be deleted since it is no longer applicable.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 8 Negative: 4


Looks to me that it has been accepted in this one already. Guess that means in the year 2020 when MD's area adopts the 2008 code it's a go. :laughing:


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## Pinhead (Mar 8, 2007)

raider1 said:


> Has anyone seen a combination AFCI breaker on the market? I know that UL has two listings one for Square D and one for Siemens, but I haven't seen either one on the market.


Isn't a combination AFCI breaker what we commonly have now? It trips when detecting noise on the line and it trips when sensing an overcurrent condition. This is what I thought, am I wrong?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Pinhead said:


> Isn't a combination AFCI breaker what we commonly have now? It trips when detecting noise on the line and it trips when sensing an overcurrent condition. This is what I thought, am I wrong?


A "combination type" detects series faults (open wire, barely touching), as well as parallel faults (just barely a short circuit). The present generation of AFCI's only detect parallel arcing faults.


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## Pinhead (Mar 8, 2007)

10-4, thank you very much.


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## Pierre Belarge (Feb 3, 2007)

Take a peak at the UL White Book (AWAH).
They are called Combination types, as they will protect the feeder/branch circuit wiring AND the cordsets/power-supply cords connected to the feeder/branch circuit wiring.

There have been some significant changes made to the AFCI devices for this new generation.

1. instead of Arcing faults of 50 amperes being detected, they will now detect Arcing faults as low as 5 amperes.

2. The sensing device electronics will have a much lower miliamp draw, thus reducing the amount of heat they produce within the device. (This is one of the reasons I believe swayed the CMP to go to larger CB capacity panelboards for the '08 code cycle)

3. The device can be installed not only in a panel, but up to 6 feet away as long as the installation up to the 6 foot location is a metallic raceway/sheathing. This permits AFCI devices to be used in panel where the manufacturer does not make the AFCI. (BUulldog, Federal, etc...)


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