# Working Live, Why?



## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Helps your balls grow, true story.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

EB Electric said:


> It's your right to work safe, why would you want to work live when there is no need! I just don't understand what compels some people. :whistling2:


Because some people don't equate working live to working unsafe. The fact is that they are not mutually exclusive. 

You know where the *real* danger is? Driving to work. Yet you still do that every single day without making threads question why someone would do it...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

> *AMERICAN ELECTRICIANS’ HANDBOOK*
> 7th Edition 1953 McGraw-Hill
> MEASURING, TESTING, AND INSTRUMENTS
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Unfortunately a lot of customers dont want circuits going down or equipment being shut off. Go anywhere commercial during the day while in business or any place with critical equipment and you will find yourself working live. 


Against a lot of work place safety codes but customers will find someone else who willing to risk live work.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> 154. Electricians often test circuits for the presence of voltage by touching the conductors with the fingers.


I was taught to_ 'backhand'_ , because the muscles contract _away_ , as opposed to _into_ the energized entity 

As an old timer told me, you get to find out it's live AND slap yourself for doing so....:no::whistling2:~CS~


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Ill swap out recepticles and lights live, some places you cant tell a customer your going to shutdown that desk of computers just for an outlet thats switch has gone as they will just ring another electrical company that will.

The only time Ive ever been nervous around electricity was in a vault we were installing new switchgear into and there were ancient 11kv cantols saddled to the ceiling wrapped in tarred fabric. We had to bring in the new gear rolled in on pipes and we had 50mm clearance from these cables with plywood on our gear. Theres alot of stuff like that from years ago in a few buildings of worked in, one building had a bare lug -bus - lug connection powering another building that wasnt switched from the main switch so luckily the linemen checked everything. We ended up killing that building and doing a shearbolt and insulated connection then clearly marking it what it was.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_'working live'_ is relative Chewy

11kv _vs._ a switch should make that relevant to anyone

~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> _'working live'_ is relative Chewy
> 
> 11kv _vs._ a switch should make that relevant to anyone
> 
> ~CS~


11kv is a lot less forgiving then 120 or 277, but its that less of a risk that invites people to work LV live.


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## Edrick (Jun 6, 2010)

chewy said:


> Ill swap out recepticles and lights live, some places you cant tell a customer your going to shutdown that desk of computers just for an outlet thats switch has gone as they will just ring another electrical company that will. The only time Ive ever been nervous around electricity was in a vault we were installing new switchgear into and there were ancient 11kv cantols saddled to the ceiling wrapped in tarred fabric. We had to bring in the new gear rolled in on pipes and we had 50mm clearance from these cables with plywood on our gear. Theres alot of stuff like that from years ago in a few buildings of worked in, one building had a bare lug -bus - lug connection powering another building that wasnt switched from the main switch so luckily the linemen checked everything. We ended up killing that building and doing a shearbolt and insulated connection then clearly marking it what it was.


So have them ring the electrician who doesn't care if he makes it home


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Edrick said:


> So have them ring the electrician who doesn't care if he makes it home


Wow, such drama.

Working live means that you don't care if you make it home, good to know... :laughing:


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> 'working live' is relative Chewy
> 
> 11kv vs. a switch should make that relevant to anyone
> 
> ~CS~


Yeah, I feel in control with doing a switch or recepticle by myself. With 6 other guys moving a tonne of gear I was nervous because I cant control the variables and dumbass factor.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

meadow said:


> Unfortunately a lot of customers dont want circuits going down or equipment being shut off. Go anywhere commercial during the day while in business or any place with critical equipment and you will find yourself working live.
> 
> Against a lot of work place safety codes but customers will find someone else who willing to risk live work.


As more people refuse to unnecessarily perform live work it will become more accepted as standard practice by the customer. 

True, there will always be folks willing to do it live, but as more companies enforce safety procedures eventually the customer will realize they are being forced to choose between a well respected professional company and a fly-by-night outfit.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EB Electric said:


> It's your right to work safe, why would you want to work live when there is no need! I just don't understand what compels some people. :whistling2:


For the same reason why one in four Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth. They are just plain old stupid.

You work hot, you are an idiot.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

Edrick said:


> So have them ring the electrician who doesn't care if he makes it home


I was taught by my journeyman and supervised my first few times until we were both confident in my capability. Im not forced to do it and have opted out of a couple situations with no hard feelings or pressure.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hack Work said:


> Wow, such drama.
> 
> Working live means that you don't care if you make it home, good to know... :laughing:


I have died about 50 times then, since that is roughly the number of times I've been shocked. Cats ain't got **** on me. :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

meadow said:


> 11kv is a lot less forgiving then 120 or 277, but its that less of a risk that invites people to work LV live.


well said meadow

:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> For the same reason why one in four Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth. They are just plain old stupid.
> 
> You work hot, you are an idiot.


But just what constitutes _'working live'_ eejack ?

For Ex, there was an incident, i don't know where or when, involving two electricians removing the cover off a live panel

apparently something went astray, and bot ended up injured

This was quite some time ago, yet the safety advocates ran it ragged in multiple pro forums 

~CS~


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> But just what constitutes _'working live'_ eejack ?
> 
> For Ex, there was an incident, i don't know where or when, involving two electricians removing the cover off a live panel
> 
> ...


eejack is not only union, but he is out of Local 164 which means he will stop working and demand to come in during a Sunday shutdown with a minimum of 4 other men in order to take a cover off of a trough that may have a live wire in it.


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Hack Work said:


> eejack is not only union, but he is out of Local 164 which means he will stop working and demand to come in during a Sunday shutdown with a minimum of 4 other men in order to take a cover off of a trough that may have a live wire in it.


unions have nothing to do with it, although the Sundays are double time


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Michigan Master said:


> As more people refuse to unnecessarily perform live work it will become more accepted as standard practice by the customer.
> 
> True, there will always be folks willing to do it live, but as more companies enforce safety procedures eventually the customer will realize they are being forced to choose between a well respected professional company and a* fly-by-night outfit.*




to say any company that performs live work is a 'fly-by-night outfit' is ... well ridiculous


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> But just what constitutes _'working live'_ eejack ?


In simplest terms - if something goes wrong and you can get a sudden shutdown, you are working live.

Forget safety ( which apparently most idiots don't care about ), it is the sudden unscheduled shutdown that causes the most issues.

Short out a receptacle in an office, breaker trips, the lady at the next cubicle just lost a day's work. Pull a switch out of a box and knock out the lighting in a store. Loosen a neutral on a multi wire circuit and run 240 through a home owner's kitchen appliances.

**** happens. Avoid it when possible.

Sure, when I was younger and stupider I did dumb things. I cleared a high school working on a live fire alarm panel. Shut down an apartment complex when my pliers slipped. Destroyed an I-Line panel when a ko slug slid behind my cardboard 'safety shield' ( which took down a running 4 color web press - lots of down time cleaning the drying ink off of that machine ).

No one got hurt - but jobs were lost, money was lost and lives were disrupted. 

Scheduled shutdowns just make financial sense. Anything so important that it cannot be turned off certainly cannot be blown up.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chewy said:


> I was taught by my journeyman and supervised my first few times until we were both confident in my capability. Im not forced to do it and have opted out of a couple situations with no hard feelings or pressure.


Then you must work in an environment that actually cares about your safety. In reality, the choice shouldn't be yours. It should be a company policy to not work hot..

Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So your definition, if i'm reading this right, is a risk /benny ratio geared first & foremost towards the customers convenience eejack?

~CS~


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Next we should ban working with knives or other sharp objects. I've already been to jobsites at pharmaceutical companies who do that.

We should push for it to be a recognized safety rule nationwide.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So your definition, if i'm reading this right, is a risk /benny ratio geared first & foremost towards the customers convenience eejack?
> 
> ~CS~


Steve,

You are asking a rhetorical question. You already know that the customer don't give a damn about our safety... just their bottom line.

Pete


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## Hmacanada (Jan 16, 2014)

Sounds like a lot if bad stories to me. Clearance and voltage is always the big consideration . If there isn't enough wire to pull a device out of the box safely shut it off . If I have to do anything with a load on it , turn it off.
If ya use your big brain and some common sense work live on small stuff no big deal


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Understood Pete

But that is reducing the validity of safety to the bottom line

As well as forwarding the notion that sparky will screw up creating more 'bottom line'

~CS~


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> Understood Pete
> 
> But that is reducing the validity of safety to the bottom line
> 
> ...


And, the one whose power you will shut off to do your job safely will not understand why.

"They" will only realise the $ lost while you are doing the job safely. It really is a sad truth.

Pete


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I'd have liked to have heard what the kids solution was to "Doing it hot, no problem." I don't automatically have a problem with live work, I have a big problem with stupid live work and unfortunately, that's what most of it is.

Taking a risk just because you can is dumb. To expand on _Hax's_ point, it'd be similar to driving into work every day weaving through traffic at 90MPH while not wearing your seatbelt. 

The guys who I trust to do hot work are the guys who don't immediately volunteer to jump in and do everything hot just because they have some half-assed notion that it makes them good at their job.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Big John said:


> I'd have liked to have heard what the kids solution was to "Doing it hot, no problem." I don't automatically have a problem with live work, I have a big problem with stupid live work and unfortunately, that's what most of it is.
> 
> Taking a risk just because you can is dumb. To expand on _Hax's_ point, it'd be similar to driving into work every day weaving through traffic at 90MPH while not wearing your seatbelt.
> 
> The guys who I trust to do hot work are the guys who don't immediately volunteer to jump in and do everything hot just because they have some half-assed notion that it makes them good at their job.


I agree with you Big John... If work has to be performed while energized there is a right way to do it.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't follow the safety protocals.

Pete


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

sad truth Pete......

well maybe that's the real bottom line after all

speaking of which, don't all these live work thread end up with the infamous 70E sign off document?

for the sake of those_ 'lively apprentices'_, does anyone have it in their fav's to post?

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> I agree with you Big John... If work has to be performed while energized there is a right way to do it.
> 
> Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't follow the safety protocals.
> 
> Pete


If work has to be done live - like the testing that Brian John does - it has to be done right. Again, forget the safety ( because we are all invincible ) but if there is a screw up and the power suddenly drops out - all kinds of other things happen.

Most of us don't deal with it enough to be have everything covered - we just throw a couple of extra wraps of 33 on our tools and go to work.

I remember reading a story on this forum about someone who shorted out a receptacle to trace a circuit and ended up shutting down a whole building because the main tripped.


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## LanceBass (Mar 22, 2013)

I can't wait till I get my Masters. That's the day I'm done working live forever and when every commercial building in the area can go **** itself in the daytimes if they have any problems. This stuff where we risk our lives so the idiots walking around WAL*MART won't be interrupted while loading up on Mountain Dew and Playstations is ridiculous.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

LanceBass said:


> I can't wait till I get my Masters. That's the day I'm done working live forever and when every commercial building in the area can go **** itself in the daytimes if they have any problems. This stuff where we risk our lives so the idiots walking around WAL*MART won't be interrupted while loading up on Mountain Dew and Playstations is ridiculous.


What makes you so sure you'll get your masters license?


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> So your definition, if i'm reading this right, is a risk /benny ratio geared first & foremost towards the customers convenience eejack?
> 
> ~CS~


Yes. Because if you screw the customer by destroying their equipment you lose them as a customer. 

If you ignore safety it comes down to balancing out the potential destruction vs. the potential 'savings'. In most cases, or nearly every case it is cheap to shut the power off.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

eejack said:


> If work has to be done live - like the testing that Brian John does - it has to be done right. Again, forget the safety ( because we are all invincible ) but if there is a screw up and the power suddenly drops out - all kinds of other things happen.
> 
> Most of us don't deal with it enough to be have everything covered - we just throw a couple of extra wraps of 33 on our tools and go to work.
> 
> I remember reading a story on this forum about someone who shorted out a receptacle to trace a circuit and ended up shutting down a whole building because the main tripped.


I was trying to go towards worker safety.. not badly designed selective coordination. 

Truth is I have worked on hot equipment without any PPE more times than I care to remember... I was one of the "lucky (and stupid) ones".

Pete


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Hack Work said:


> eejack is not only union, but he is out of Local 164 which means he will stop working and demand to come in during a Sunday shutdown with a minimum of 4 other men in order to take a cover off of a trough that may have a live wire in it.


No, but I would weigh the potential destructive result if it goes wrong and make a decision. In a hospital operating wing you take less risks than in a home depot garden department. For that matter - the home depot would rather you risk it on a monday morning when they are basically empty instead of prime time Sunday sales rush.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Pete m. said:


> I was trying to go towards worker safety.. not badly designed selective coordination.
> 
> Truth is I have worked on hot equipment without any PPE more times than I care to remember... I was one of the "lucky (and stupid) ones".
> 
> Pete


The problem with safety is none of us believe it can happen to us. If we did we wouldn't do it. So we delude ourselves and do stupid things. Currently I am running a gang and I find myself believing my guys might blow something up so I don't allow them to be in that position. Just a slight change in perspective.


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## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

So wait a minute.....you mean to say today specifically not of you guys changed a device out hot, you went an search for the breaker wasting precious time (time is money in are business), i find that very hard to believe


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Big John said:


> I'd have liked to have heard what the kids solution was to "Doing it hot, no problem." I don't automatically have a problem with live work, I have a big problem with stupid live work and unfortunately, that's what most of it is.
> 
> Taking a risk just because you can is dumb. To expand on _Hax's_ point, it'd be similar to driving into work every day weaving through traffic at 90MPH while not wearing your seatbelt.
> 
> The guys who I trust to do hot work are the guys who don't immediately volunteer to jump in and do everything hot just because they have some half-assed notion that it makes them good at their job.


Sure. I'm not going to swap out a device hot if it isn't a completely pain in the ass to search through a bunch of sub panels that aren't labelled and my circuit tracer isn't acting up. Just like if I am doing a panel swap, I'm not going to heat it up until all my circuits are made up unless the homeowner needs something running fast. I can do the work faster when working de-energized than not. Am I going to kill a resi main breaker panel just to add a circuit or something? Nope. I'd just as soon do most simple tasks de-energized, but it isn't necessarily a deal breaker on 120v stuff or adding circuits in load centers/ panelboards.


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

Big John said:


> I'd have liked to have heard what the kids solution was to "Doing it hot, no problem." I don't automatically have a problem with live work, I have a big problem with stupid live work and unfortunately, that's what most of it is.
> 
> Taking a risk just because you can is dumb. To expand on _Hax's_ point, it'd be similar to driving into work every day weaving through traffic at 90MPH while not wearing your seatbelt.
> 
> The guys who I trust to do hot work are the guys who don't immediately volunteer to jump in and do everything hot just because they have some half-assed notion that it makes them good at their job.


100% agree! And to clarify to everyone, this was not a customer pushing to do live work, can't shut down a computer that kind of reason. I understand there is times when hot work must be done, this was not one of those situations. This was a new construction site, in a 120/208 distribution panel that was feeding a few receptacles and temporary lights during construction. He already was told and had approval to shutdown the panel for his work for the entire day. In this situation, working live would be only one thing: STUPID!


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

Sorry, we have to shut down the iron lung for :20 while I change out this recep...


Sometimes it's just to big of a PITA to power down, other times it is just too big of a risk to do it hot. A few weeks back I told a customer that I would have to shut down the entire panel to work in a large J-box, It had been hacked through many times over and I didn't want to risk opening a neutral and frying a $40k plotter or some other ****. Off shift work is time and a half


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

meadow said:


> Unfortunately a lot of customers dont want circuits going down or equipment being shut off. Go anywhere commercial during the day while in business or any place with critical equipment and you will find yourself working live.
> 
> 
> Against a lot of work place safety codes but customers will find someone else who willing to risk live work.


I work on large industrial and commercial sites everyday. The customer is well aware that it is our companies policy, no live work. No way in hell am I climbing in a live 600V line up. We work for huge corporate customers, health care facilities, national data centres, and all the alike, they do not get to pressure us to work live to anymore extent then the 7/11 on the corner. Voltage and current could care less if working at the pentagon or a slumb hole, it will light you up all the same. There are critical loads that cannot be flipped off at a moments notice, in which case a shutdown is scheduled. If the customer elects to go with another contractor who will do it live, then so be it. I won't put my safety on the line to save the customer a dollar!


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## theloop82 (Aug 18, 2011)

We worked hot in lots of sketchy situations at the hospital I was working at for about 5 years. There is no good way to turn off most of the stuff in a working hospital, especially critical panels. When at all possible we would but the state here has a rule where you have to do a 31 day load test on every transfer switch and panel in a critical branch before you do a major construction project so that involved opening up live panels, transfer switches etc. and wrapping CT's around the bussing. I was lucky for a long time and I got out of there and found a new job that you will basically get fired if you work something hot. 

I guess what im saying is there is situations where it may not be a good idea, but there is really no way around it. Someone has to do it.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> Because some people don't equate working live to working unsafe. The fact is that they are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> You know where the *real* danger is? Driving to work. Yet you still do that every single day without making threads question why someone would do it...


A close friend wanted me to go to Atlantic City to gamble, I hate risking money on games of chance, he said I was a p*ssy, I told him I gamble everyday being in business and driving the Beltway around DC a very dangerous task.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eejack said:


> .
> 
> I remember reading a story on this forum about someone who shorted out a receptacle to trace a circuit and ended up shutting down a whole building because the main tripped.



Well we've all got our stories eejack. About 25 yrs ago i had a manager tell me to just _'short out' _a circuit , in order to work on it in a large facility

So i carefully took the #12 thwn , and touched it to ground with my pliers

Now i didn't blow anything more than a 20 OCPD, but it just so happened many office computers on it were spiked badly

The resulting gaggle of secretaries pecking the manager and i apart made me rethink my neanderthal circuit tracing technique 

we can evolve!


~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

theloop82 said:


> We worked hot in lots of sketchy situations at the hospital I was working at for about 5 years. There is no good way to turn off most of the stuff in a working hospital, especially critical panels. When at all possible we would but the state here has a rule where you have to do a 31 day load test on every transfer switch and panel in a critical branch before you do a major construction project so that involved opening up live panels, transfer switches etc. and wrapping CT's around the bussing. I was lucky for a long time and I got out of there and found a new job that you will basically get fired if you work something hot.
> 
> I guess what im saying is there is situations where it may not be a good idea, but there is really no way around it. Someone has to do it.



Some hospitals are a joke, come hurricane/ice storm/your choice it turns into we need to evacuate the hospital and no we the poco cant put our crews in buck trucks when its gusting to 80mph:no:. Im not kidding when data centers are 10,000 times more reliable. They will actually do weekly starts and do bi monthly multi hour load tests at full standby nameplate ratings. All data recorded. Add muti independent emergency risers and hospitals look like they couldn't care less.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I did a job for a bank data center, place was like ft Knox. 

They had more BU systems than i've seen in one facility

I did inquire as to shutting it all down, but it never shuts down, ever....

It made we wonder if there is anything in the nec about the isolation of critical loads _exclusively_ for purposes of maintenance ?

~CS~


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> Sorry, we have to shut down the iron lung for 20 while I change out this recep....


 I get that you're joking, but I hear that type of excuse all the time. "It's a critical system! It can't be shut down for safety reasons!" Alright, well that's also exactly why it can't be worked on energized.

I've seen a guy knock out a whole UPS system because it couldn't be shut down and he made a mistake while working it hot. An uncontrolled shutdown is much, much worse than a planned outage.


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## tesco (Feb 17, 2012)

theloop82 said:


> There is no good way to turn off most of the stuff in a working hospital, especially critical panels.


What if an accident happened while working live, shutting down that critical panel _unplanned_?

This is actually a legit question, how does a panel get worked on in a hospital? You can't just walk into each hospital room and let the patient know you're shutting down their heart monitor for 30 mins.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

EB Electric said:


> I just don't get it. Today I am working away testing switchgear doing my job. To start off we get there and my supervisor points out, some bozo decided using the load side lugs of a fused disconnect switch would be a great junction box. :no: The electricians on site thought we were on glue saying we will not test that switch because the equipment has live exposed parts and it is our company policy not to work in live equipment.
> 
> 15 minutes later.....I over hear the main electrical supervisor and an apprentice talking. Suddenly the apprentice goes "you want me to do this live?, I can do it hot no problem, then you can power on so and so. No problem."  I couldn't help wondering and wanting to turn around and ask what in the hell is wrong with this kid. There is no pressure to power up the panel, he just openly suggested he will work live in the panel. Thankfully, as soon as the kid could get the words out of his mouth the supervisor told him no. If I was his supervisor I would have had a lot more to say then 'no'. As an apprentice, people like that piss me off! It's your right to work safe, why would you want to work live when there is no need! I just don't understand what compels some people. :whistling2:


I prefer to work live on smaller stuff and troubleshooting. 25 years ago we worked live. I learned my trade 30 years ago and feel confident and safe. I caught my first 277 stinger in 1989, why? Because I took my attention from my hands to a woman.
But to each his own, I would never.ask anyone who doubted themselves to work live


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I put a screwdriver 1/2 way thru my palm over a pretty skirt once :jester::no::thumbup:

might make us look a tad stupid, but doesn't make us bad men Doc....:whistling2:~CS~


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## millelec (Nov 20, 2010)

no one sets out to have an accident. I've worked live on switchgear taking voltage and amperage measurements, (and other stuff) but anything can get you. Was reading an article in EC&M about the guy who was taking a panel cover off and the tool left in there PREVIOUSLY was dislodged and created a phase to phase short. I'm sure the dude who left it in there wasn't looking to be a douche, it was an accident. small consolation to the next guy.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

I work in live panels everyday. If I had to shut down every panel I work in, I would spend more time working off hours than not.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I have to wear my PPE incognito because everyone thinks i'm from the nsa here>










:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:~CS~


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Is that mask/make-up FR rated?:laughing::laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

nope, just to protect your vision switch:jester:

yanno, i wore this to turn on some big switchgear after the poco sparked it up here

had a 40yr poco man say _'i never saw a sparky in an arc suit'_ , as i entered the gear room

the 12 cal wouldn't have done jack for the SS calc i had , but hey, i was sytlin'!



~CS~


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## ohmontherange (May 7, 2008)

We do more work at night during the " maintenance window" than in the day. It's just routine as are the work starts, GMOPS, DMOPS, fall back procedures, etc.

I have worked for the past several years on projects involving upgrading communication / data facility critical support infrastructure and one of the objectives is to allow for total failure or maintenance of said infrastructure in a non impacting way which includes deenergized maintenance.

This involves everything from 48 VDC powering, alternate/redundant powering, geo redundancy, diverse routing , etc.


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## Ink&Brass (Nov 6, 2013)




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## markore (Dec 7, 2011)

brian john said:


> A close friend wanted me to go to Atlantic City to gamble, I hate risking money on games of chance, he said I was a p*ssy, I told him I gamble everyday being in business and driving the Beltway around DC a very dangerous task.


I've lived in the DMV (dc, md, va) for 6 years and agree with everything you said!
As my dad who lost his shirt gold mining in Alaska said: "If you have enough money to go mining, DON'T!"


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## Deanos01 (Feb 19, 2014)

I work at a hospital, should I shut down the main to change an outlet?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Deanos01 said:


> I work at a hospital, should I shut down the main to change an outlet?


A facility sparky should respect 408.4 enough to forgo such a claim Deano

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Deanos01 said:


> I work at a hospital, should I shut down the main to change an outlet?


Should a hospital shut down because I changed an outlet and created a fault in doing so?

EXTREME EXAMPLE BUT

In this; training, PPE and common sense play into the complete answer to your question.


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## Deanos01 (Feb 19, 2014)

Your right


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

There are some situations that will always require working on live equipment.Why can't some guys seem to understand that. What do you think arc flash gear and training is for? It's all about doing it safe.So there!


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## Deanos01 (Feb 19, 2014)

Exactly


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

crosport said:


> There are some situations that will always require working on live equipment.Why can't some guys seem to understand that. What do you think arc flash gear and training is for? It's all about doing it safe.So there!



While PPE & training are required, it can also introduces a loss of tactility and vision 

This then fortifies eejacks point of the economically incorrect result of an unplanned shutdown , which was the selling point over personal safety

~CS~


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Deanos01 said:


> I work at a hospital, should I shut down the main to change an outlet?


No, but you could shut down that one circuit.

For a second let us say you do it live and you trip the circuit - what could possibly happen? Might you shut down someone's life saving equipment or spike a nurses computer or just turn off a coffee pot? Would it not be worth a few minutes to find out? 

Now, if your facility is so borked that you haven't good labeling and finding circuits is an issue, then you do it off hours and attempt to label whatever you can while you are doing it.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

OR, like it's done in the real world, he would do his job carefully and complete it without having to schedule offtime work and bring in a minimum amount of men on overtime just to change a receptacle.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm always amazed by these threads. I find it sad that professional electricians can't work in a live panel or change out a receptacle or ballast live without shorting something out or killing themselves. Are people actually this incompetent in the real world, or is this all just unnecessary drama to pad someone's overtime check?

I work live EVERYDAY. It's part of the job. Obviously there are tasks that are too dangerous to do live and a shutdown must be scheduled, but many routine tasks are done live everyday by thousands of electricians around the world without incident. To say you have to shut a panel down just to add a 20amp circuit is unnecessary. 

I'm not advocating working everything hot "just because", but it is the job of a qualified electrician to determine when hot work needs to be done/can be done safely, and when there truly needs to be a shutdown. If I need to change out a switch or receptacle and can find the breaker relatively easily, I will shut it off if practical. If the lighting circuit feeds the whole floor of an office building or I can't readily find the breaker, I'll just do it hot. If the wires going to the device are 2" long and there is no possible way to do it without getting lit up, it gets shut off without question. Every situation is different, that's why they hired a professional to figure it out. I have enough confidence in my abilities to know that I can do it without killing myself and without blowing it up. It really isn't that hard. You guys make this job way harder than it needs to be. I just don't get it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Most electricians, _or _most American electricians work live would be a good study here EB

Our system has less isolating devices ...:whistling2:

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm always amazed by these threads. I find it sad that professional electricians can't work in a live panel or change out a receptacle or ballast live without shorting something out or killing themselves. Are people actually this incompetent in the real world, or is this all just unnecessary drama to pad someone's overtime check?
> t.



There are many issues here

But as I said 
Training.
Common sense
PPE
A game plan 
And a realization that in many cases turning off the power is an option.

Having been at several accident scenes where the electricians were burnt, some minor, some requiring a trip to the hospital, some an extended stay at the hospital, and a few to the morgue. 

I'd say you have to know your limits, in almost every case the fault was the fault of the electrician, doing something he should not be doing and was not being forced to do this by anyone. They were not cowboys, or trying to prove they were manning up, they just had a lapse of sensibility, did not think about what they were doing, did not think about the consequences and did the work with insufficient training.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm always amazed by these threads. I find it sad that professional electricians can't work in a live panel or change out a receptacle or ballast live without shorting something out or killing themselves. Are people actually this incompetent in the real world, or is this all just unnecessary drama to pad someone's overtime check?


Crap happens. Wire nuts fall off, screwdrivers slip, insulation fails, receptacles fall apart. While you might do a hundred receptacle swaps live with no issue you will eventually have something go wrong.

What amazes me is that instead of spending a few minutes to shut off a circuit, folks are willing to risk that sudden potentially costly shutdown. Even if you are the very best electrician in the universe, the guy next to you may not be. Good practices help everyone and cost next to nothing.

I have had things go wrong working live - never been hurt because of it but there was economic impacts far and above the 'savings' of doing live work. If you can afford crap happening, then do it live. Then again, if you can afford crap happening, then you can afford to shut it down.


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

If I was working live and somehow blew something up and shut down part if the building I'm positive I would probably lose my job, and that's if I lived. So there is really no motivation for me to work live.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

What constantly amazes me is the service guy's who think they don't have the ability to turn a circuit or two off. Why not?

Explain the economic ramifications of what could happen with the loss of power, short circuiting something, or injury/death. Most managers of a business and/or facilities guys will arrange for the power to be shut off. Especially in a home, how hard is it to shut down power to a house for a few minutes to a few hours?

From Wikipedia:

An accident, mishap, or, more archaically, misadventure, is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. *It usually implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.*
Experts[who?] in the field of injury prevention avoid use of the term 'accident' to describe events that cause injury in an attempt to highlight the *predictable and preventable nature of most injuries*. Such incidents are viewed from the perspective of epidemiology as predictable and preventable.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> I'm always amazed by these threads. I find it sad that professional electricians can't work in a live panel or change out a receptacle or ballast live without shorting something out or killing themselves....


Doing anything hazardous requires an honest assessment of the risks, and when when you say stuff like this:


> Are people actually this incompetent in the real world...?


 Then it means you have not accurately assessed the risks.

There are always circumstances outside your control, and everyone makes mistakes. Declaring that you're a professional electrician doesn't make you immune from screwing up severely.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Big John said:


> Doing anything hazardous requires an honest assessment of the risks, and when when you say stuff like this: Then it means you have not accurately assessed the risks.
> 
> There are always circumstances outside your control, and everyone makes mistakes. Declaring that you're a professional electrician doesn't make you immune from screwing up severely.


Has anyone here ever stripped off 8" of bx jacket from crumbing insulation live without blowing the circuit ?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Switched said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> An accident, mishap, or, more archaically, misadventure, is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. *It usually implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.*
> Experts[who?] in the field of injury prevention avoid use of the term 'accident' to describe events that cause injury in an attempt to highlight the *predictable and preventable nature of most injuries*. Such incidents are viewed from the perspective of epidemiology as predictable and preventable.



From Reality>

An accident, mishap, or, more archaically, misadventure, is not unforeseen or unplanned statistically, although often with lack of intention or necessity. It usually implies a generally negative outcome for the worker ant, which may have been avoided or prevented had any true reality imparted leading up to the accident been expressed, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.

Experts who make a living in the electrical safety business field use any electrical accident , usually describing our decedent brothers _(who can no longer speak)_ involved as incompetent in an attempt to perpetuate legislation assuming it a preventable remedy of most injuries. Such incidents cloaked in the guise of epidemiology return predictable profit to said experts.


~CS~


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

360max said:


> [/B]to say any company that performs live work is a 'fly-by-night outfit' is ... well ridiculous


I said companies who *unnecessarily* perform live electrical work. There _are_ justifications for live work. However, companies that intentionally disregard OSHA regulations and needlessly risk the safety of their employees... sounds like fly-by-night to me.

Here is the OSHA regulation 1910.333(a)(1). There are 3 exceptions: less than 50V, greater hazard, or infeasible. If you follow the link provided, and then click on the section number it will take to several standard interpretations. You can also find similar verbiage in 70E.


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## EB Electric (Feb 8, 2013)

To me, something like not shutting down an office lighting panel to put in a 20a breaker is not a justifiable reason to work live. People can live without lights for a few minutes, and if not, it's quite easy to schedule and agree on a time when the panel can be shut down. If it has to be done outside of regular hours then so be it. Not a personal attack on anyone, but from everything I've read, most people seem to be saying they would rather just do it live because of the inconvenience of turning off the power. It seems like way too many people are concerned about inconveniencing the customer and the financial implications.... "Can't turn the lights off to an entire floor, can't shut the computers down on the trading floor, there is an important meeting with executives"... etc, etc. At the end of the day, my safety is the most important thing! It really doesn't matter if millions of dollars are involved, you are working for the president, whatever, none of that matters if you don't make it home safely to your family. I will not willingly put myself in the line of fire for the customers benefit. I don't see the issue in planning out a small shutdown after hours. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm paid by the hour. Whether I'm discussing what time will work to shutdown the panel with the building supervisor or pulling wire I am still getting paid either way. If that makes me terrible at my job, then so be it.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

There's a difference between working live and being foolish and working live safely with proper PPE. I'll be doing work Monday and Tuesday out of town that will require working live but I'll have all the right safety equipment.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

EB Electric said:


> To me, something like not shutting down an office lighting panel to put in a 20a breaker is not a justifiable reason to work live. People can live without lights for a few minutes, and if not, it's quite easy to schedule and agree on a time when the panel can be shut down. If it has to be done outside of regular hours then so be it. Not a personal attack on anyone, but from everything I've read, most people seem to be saying they would rather just do it live because of the inconvenience of turning off the power. It seems like way too many people are concerned about inconveniencing the customer and the financial implications.... "Can't turn the lights off to an entire floor, can't shut the computers down on the trading floor, there is an important meeting with executives"... etc, etc. At the end of the day, my safety is the most important thing! It really doesn't matter if millions of dollars are involved, you are working for the president, whatever, none of that matters if you don't make it home safely to your family. I will not willingly put myself in the line of fire for the customers benefit. I don't see the issue in planning out a small shutdown after hours. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm paid by the hour. Whether I'm discussing what time will work to shutdown the panel with the building supervisor or pulling wire I am still getting paid either way. If that makes me terrible at my job, then so be it.


This sounds great in a perfect world. In reality it isn't that easy. 

Sure, anything can be scheduled for an after hours shutdown. You are correct that it's not that hard to do. If it were an occasional issue it really wouldn't be a big deal. However in real world conditions this would be a daily event. I might as well change my hours to second shift because I will be working an after hours shutdown every night.

Here's a typical day in the life of a commercial service guy:

Job #1 - add a circuit for the new copy machine in the lawyer's office. Need to shut down the panel to get the mc cable into it, install the breaker, and tie in. This panel also feeds the office computers. Can't be shutdown during normal business hours, will have to schedule an after hours shutdown.

Job #2 - replace 3 ballasts in open office area in call center. Large open cubicle area, can't shut off the lighting circuit killing the whole area lighting, will have to schedule an after hours shut down.

Job #3 - troubleshoot tripping breaker for toaster oven in fast food restaurant kitchen. Bad breaker, needs to be replaced. Can't shutdown entire panel as it feeds all the equipment in the kitchen. Will have to schedule after hours shutdown.

One day, 3 jobs, all requiring after hours shutdowns to do routine tasks that any qualified electrician should be able to do live without any issue. But, to comply with safety policy we will need to schedule an after hours shutdown. 

This is only one day for one guy. Multiply this by 5 days in the week times however many service guys work for the company. Like I said, might as well have the service guys work 2nd or 3rd shift because they will be spending more time doing after hours shutdowns than not. In the real world we would just do these jobs live and move on to the next job.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

The problem here is that some of you don't understand that not all of us have adopted the nanny-state bullsh1t idea that electrician shouldn't work on live circuits. To some of us, that's like saying roofers shouldn't work in the sun. Working hot is a part of being an electrician. Some of you can get away with not having to work hot due to company policy and giving a crap about OSHA and 70E, but not everyone is going to follow that. That's just the way it is.

I don't even have a choice, I am forced to work hot when disconnecting or reconnecting a service. Now THAT carries a bit of danger since it's essentially unfused and there is a very high fault current. Nevermind the fact that it's done off a ladder at a minimum of 13' and often as high as 25'+.

So excuse me if after splicing a service in hot, because I had to, I go ahead and change out a receptacle hot so that I didn't waste the time finding the circuit and then have to work in the dark. Yes, I would rather do it while the power was off and I often do shutdown when feasible, but sometimes it's easier and beneficial to do it live. 

This whole "_I can't understand how electrician still work hot!_" thing is nothing more than a bandwagon. If you actually cared about safety and getting home to your family, you would put a roll cage and 5-point harness in your car and you would wear a helmet. Or you would only work where mass transit takes you. The odds overwhelmingly say you have a better chance of getting hurt driving to work than at work. 

So while you come in on Sunday and shutdown the power to change out a receptacle and avoid a tingle in your hand, you drove to work an extra day and put yourself at a much higher risk for injury or death. Excellent idea! Bravo, safety guy.

Let me know when the bandwagon for not using a knife without cut-proof gloves starts up, I want to be the caboose :thumbup:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hack Work said:


> The problem here is that some of you don't understand that not all of us have adopted the nanny-state bullsh1t idea that electrician shouldn't work on live circuits. To some of us, that's like saying roofers shouldn't work in the sun. Working hot is a part of being an electrician. Some of you can get away with not having to work hot due to company policy and giving a crap about OSHA and 70E, but not everyone is going to follow that. That's just the way it is.
> 
> I don't even have a choice, I am forced to work hot when disconnecting or reconnecting a service. Now THAT carries a bit of danger since it's essentially unfused and there is a very high fault current. Nevermind the fact that it's done off a ladder at a minimum of 13' and often as high as 25'+.
> 
> ...


I hope they ban you again.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> I hope they ban you again.


"Hack Work" has never been banned.

Don't be mad Mikey baby. You're still my one and only someone.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I have a statement to make about this: Oatmeal sucks!


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hack Work said:


> ...So excuse me if after splicing a service in hot, because I had to...


 You own or use any PPE?


> ...I go ahead and change out a receptacle hot so that I didn't waste the time finding the circuit and then have to work in the dark....


If you were working for a company making decisions like that you'd be a walking liability for your employer. 

Guys who routinely do hot work but use no PPE? Poor decision making.

Guys who don't look for an safer way because a "real electrician" works stuff hot? Poor decision making.

In service work, yes, a lot of stuff gets done hot. But there are ways to try and mitigate risk. When someone's only safe-work method is to wrap themselves in a blanket of "Awesome Electrician" and hope nothing goes wrong? That's dumb hot work. It doesn't protect their health, their employers liability, or the customers equipment.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Big John said:


> You own or use any PPE?


 Like a jimmy-hat? 



> If you were working for a company making decisions like that you'd be a walking liability for your employer.


 John, I "_worked for companies making decisions like that_" for many, many years :laughing:

I know you're not new to the trade which is why I can't fathom how you could deny that.



> Guys who routinely do hot work but use no PPE? Poor decision making.


 What does PPE have to do with it? 



> Guys who don't look for an safer way because a "real electrician" works stuff hot? Poor decision making.


 You are the only one who brought the macho thing into this. No one else is saying they do it to feel cool and like a real electrician.



> In service work, yes, a lot of stuff gets done hot. But there are ways to try and mitigate risk. When someone's only safe-work method is to wrap themselves in a blanket of "Awesome Electrician" and hope nothing goes wrong? That's dumb hot work. It doesn't protect their health, their employers liability, or the customers equipment.


 Again, you brought the macho thing up ("Awesome Electrician") where it doesn't belong. No one is suggesting to work hot for that reason. That has nothing to do with this conversation.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hack Work said:


> ...I know you're not new to the trade which is why I can't fathom how you could deny that.


 Yeah, and I've seen the results of that, too. Was on a crew where a guy dumped an entire pharmaceutical plant because he shorted a 277V light working it hot and it tripped the GFP on the main. This was a small shop and it put the owner in a world of crap. So even if the boss of the company was standing right there saying "Do it!" it's still poor decision making.


> ...You are the only one who brought the macho thing into this. No one else is saying they do it to feel cool and like a real electrician....


 After you suggested that it was part of the "nanny state" to attempt to be safe, and EBFD6 suggested the guys who wanted to shut things down where "incompetent." How else am I supposed to read that?


> What does PPE have to do with it?


 Because I said before I'm not unilaterally opposed to hot work. We did a ton at the utility as electricians and I think in situations with low flash hazard it can actually often be done safely. PPE is a really big step towards seeing that through.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Big John said:


> Yeah, and I've seen the results of that, too. Was on a crew where a guy dumped an entire pharmaceutical plant because he shorted a 277V light working it hot and it tripped the GFP on the main.


 Yes John, we all got a story of something bad happening in some way.

I was at Roche working for Johnson Controls (under their Integrated Facilities Management section) when one of the JCI employees mixed cleaning chemicals from unlabeled bottles which made a fog and caused the evacuation of a building. Roche said it was something like $1 million per minute that they wanted to charge JCI for lack of production or some such nonsense.

After that they wanted us to label ALL bottles, even water :laughing:

So John, are you going to start labeling your water bottle to avoid such a problem? :laughing:

Stories are fun, aren't they? :thumbup:


> This was a small shop and it put the owner in a world of crap. So even if the boss of the company was standing right there saying "Do it!" it's still poor decision making.


 Why? Because someone made a mistake once and it cost money (yet in the long run saved money)? 



> After you suggested that it was part of the "nanny state" to attempt to be safe, and EBFD6 suggested the guys who wanted to shut things down where "incompetent." How else am I supposed to read that?


 The correct way. 

John, am I cool because I could climb a 32' ladder? Am I macho? No, but I think that all electrician should be able to do it. When a safety guy comes around and says we have to use a lift to get onto a roof because a ladder is too dangerous, I say the same thing as I have been saying here. Being a big bad macho electrician has nothing to do with it. Expecting a professional to do his job is the point. And yes, I still believe that working hot sometimes is part of an electrician's job, no matter what the nanny-state has to say about it.



> Because I said before I'm not unilaterally opposed to hot work. We did a ton at the utility as electricians and I think in situations with low flash hazard it can actually often be done safely. PPE is a really big step towards seeing that through.


But in reality you understand that wearing PPE won't allow you to work hot in the nanny-state's eyes.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Here's a typical day in the life of a commercial service guy:
> 
> Job #1 - add a circuit for the new copy machine in the lawyer's office. Need to shut down the panel to get the mc cable into it, install the breaker, and tie in. This panel also feeds the office computers. Can't be shutdown during normal business hours, will have to schedule an after hours shutdown.


Oops, you accidentally turn off a breaker when taking the panel cover off and shut down the office file server, losing this weeks payroll.



EBFD6 said:


> Job #2 - replace 3 ballasts in open office area in call center. Large open cubicle area, can't shut off the lighting circuit killing the whole area lighting, will have to schedule an after hours shut down.


You open up the three fixtures, turn off the switch that controls the lights one at a time or all at once, cut out the ballasts, put in the new fangled quick connects, turn the lights back on and replace the ballasts.



EBFD6 said:


> Job #3 - troubleshoot tripping breaker for toaster oven in fast food restaurant kitchen. Bad breaker, needs to be replaced. Can't shutdown entire panel as it feeds all the equipment in the kitchen. Will have to schedule after hours shutdown.


And unfortunately when you go to remove the old bad bolt on breaker you loosen the bus just enough to cause a wee flash...but at least you now have an entire panel to replace while the kitchen is now shut down.



EBFD6 said:


> One day, 3 jobs, all requiring after hours shutdowns to do routine tasks that any qualified electrician should be able to do live without any issue. But, to comply with safety policy we will need to schedule an after hours shutdown.


I think you are using the word qualified instead of the word lucky. I get it, it is always easier to do it live and assume nothing will ever happen. I doubt you will ever get hurt doing things live, our sense of self preservation is pretty good at helping us avoid injuries, but it is not very good at controlling all that can go wrong - including all those things that are not in our control.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hack Work said:


> Yes John, we all got a story of something bad happening in some way....


 Then you understand that there are significant risks involved here that need to be realistically considered.


> ...And yes, I still believe that working hot sometimes is part of an electrician's job, no matter what the nanny-state has to say about it.


 I think it is, too, but for the third time in this thread, it's about doing it intelligently.Which doesn't include doing it just because the breaker is too far away, or barehanding because your gloves are in the truck, or just hoping you don't drop a Philips into 2000A buswork.


> ...But in reality you understand that wearing PPE won't allow you to work hot in the nanny-state's eyes.


 I understand that, but I really don't see how guys can argue that the nanny-state should allow everyone to do hot work when people won't even take the most basic steps to protect themselves. We brought the "nanny state" on ourselves because of our own accident rates.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Hack Work said:


> "Hack Work" has never been banned.


But like the tides, it is inevitable.

Try using an X for the second k next username.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

Big John said:


> Then you understand that there are risks involved here that need to be realistically considered.


 Of course there are risks. Some are large (like driving to work), some are small (like changing out a receptacle hot).



> We brought the "nanny state" on ourselves because of our own accident rates.


I don't know if I believe that. The accident rate of working electrician isn't so high as to stop them all from working live.

The nanny state is made up by a bunch of guys with mustaches sitting around a table covered in NFPA spam mailings who never set foot on a jobsite before.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

eejack said:


> But like the tides, it is inevitable.
> 
> Try using an X for the second k next username.


I still say you are full of crap. 30 years in local 164? Yet you don't work hot? Bologna.

I've worked at Valley hospital, Hackensack hospital, Hoboken medical center or whatever it's called, all with 164 guys (and that's only the hospitals). Good, hard working electrician who would never even think of shutting down to pop a 3/4" EMT into a panel or add a new line to an existing junction box. 

I come here and everyone is all holier than thou about how they never work live, bullsh1t. bull- sh1t.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Hack Work said:


> Of course there are risks. Some are large (like driving to work), some are small (like changing out a receptacle hot).


 That's a false dichotomy. The reason your vehicle injury risk is high is because you spend so much time doing it and it involves many factors out of your control (other drivers). Spend enough time doing live work, your risks of injury will go up significantly. Look at lineworkers for proof of that.


> ...I don't know if I believe that. The accident rate of working electrician isn't so high as to stop them all from working live....


 That's because we as individuals suck at understanding risk. To use your own example: Lots of people are afraid to fly but not many are afraid to drive, despite the fact that driving is statistically more dangerous.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Hack Work said:


> I still say you are full of crap. 30 years in local 164? Yet you don't work hot? Bologna.


I have worked hot - I said so in an post in this thread. I also pointed out some of the things that happened when things went wrong when I worked hot. I still do it when asked - most times it is not my call. I will do whatever stupid thing my foreman asks me to do because that is my job, but I will point out how stupid it is. When I am in charge my men don't work hot.

You are very insistent about this, I suspect you really never have worked hot. My point is working live is usually not worthwhile, it is relatively easy to get things shut down - much less effort than the inevitable oops something didn't go as planned.

I have worked in Valley, Hackensack, Jersey City Medical, Bergen Pines, Englewood and other healthcare facilities and I can assure you that normal procedure is turn it off before working. Really. No one wants to risk an accidental shutdown. And no one is asking anyone to change a receptacle in an operating theatre during a procedure.

You act like if you shut off a circuit it is a huge undertaking...no it is not. You find panel, find breaker, turn it off. If it is serving something important, you schedule it for when nothing important is happening. Not a big deal. Much smarter than 'just do it live'.

Or you can count on luck.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> Oops, you accidentally turn off a breaker when taking the panel cover off and shut down the office file server, losing this weeks payroll.


This goes back to my comment about incompetent electricians. If you can't take a dead front off without carelessly (notice I didn't say "accidentally) shutting breakers off, then you definitely shouldn't do live work. 


> You open up the three fixtures, turn off the switch that controls the lights one at a time or all at once, cut out the ballasts, put in the new fangled quick connects, turn the lights back on and replace the ballasts.


The customer will not let you shut the lights off during business hours. 1 circuit does the whole area. These ballasts will have to be worked hot, that's why they called an electrician. If the circuit has to be shut down anyway then they don't need you. They'll just have the janitors do it tonight after hours since they'll be here anyway. Thanks for coming out, we'll be sure to call someone else next time. 


> And unfortunately when you go to remove the old bad bolt on breaker you loosen the bus just enough to cause a wee flash...but at least you now have an entire panel to replace while the kitchen is now shut down.


Oh, the drama. I could also win the lottery tonight. The odds are probably better for that than your little scenario. 


> I think you are using the word qualified instead of the word lucky.


No, I mean qualified. Being qualified means that you are capable of assessing a situation and making a determination based on knowledge and experience rather than just blindly following safety regulations that may or may not be necessary. I don't believe in zero tolerance or one size fits all solutions and I refuse to follow blanket polices put in place so someone else doesn't have to use their brain. Lets just dumb everything down to the lowest denominator and no one will have to think or take any kind of responsibility for anything.


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## Hack Work (Dec 29, 2013)

eejack said:


> I have worked hot - I said so in an post in this thread. I also pointed out some of the things that happened when things went wrong when I worked hot. *I still do it when asked - most times it is not my call. I will do whatever stupid thing my foreman asks me to do because that is my job, but I will point out how stupid it is.* When I am in charge my men don't work hot.


 You did not say this part earlier. At least now I believe you, because this is just the way it goes.



> You are very insistent about this, I suspect you really never have worked hot.


 Yes, you are right, I have never worked hot


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## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> This goes back to my comment about incompetent electricians. If you can't take a dead front off without carelessly (notice I didn't say "accidentally) shutting breakers off, then you definitely shouldn't do live work. The customer will not let you shut the lights off during business hours. 1 circuit does the whole area. These ballasts will have to be worked hot, that's why they called an electrician. If the circuit has to be shut down anyway then they don't need you. They'll just have the janitors do it tonight after hours since they'll be here anyway. Thanks for coming out, we'll be sure to call someone else next time. Oh, the drama. I could also win the lottery tonight. The odds are probably better for that than your little scenario. No, I mean qualified. Being qualified means that you are capable of assessing a situation and making a determination based on knowledge and experience rather than just blindly following safety regulations that may or may not be necessary. I don't believe in zero tolerance or one size fits all solutions and I refuse to follow blanket polices put in place so someone else doesn't have to use their brain. Lets just dumb everything down to the lowest denominator and no one will have to think or take any kind of responsibility for anything.


I follow you on most of this except the lighting part. I've worked in lots of offices with fancy continuous row lighting hanging from aircraft cable that were an absolute bear to work on, especially hot. No way I'm working a 277 fixture like that hot. It's so easy in this situation to just shut the circuit off. If the customer doesn't like that well tough ...., they called us, and they don't get to dictate my work practices. I absolutely hate the idea of businesses trying to influence how we do things


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> This goes back to my comment about incompetent electricians.


I mean no offense but if you have never screwed up, you have never actually worked. You make it sound like you have never screwed up. I doubt that. No one is that good. So when you look back at your screwups, how many times could they have been avoided by working on dead things?

I thought so.

So while some roll the dice and hope for continued luck competent electricians will make good decisions based on risk/reward and follow good practices that avoid the occasional misadventure involving electricity.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This game is rigged

It's a no win situation for worker ant

~CS~


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

I tie in brand new service upgrades usually bare-handed and have been doing it for years. I believe I do work safe and have all my tools rated for the specific voltages the state of New Jersey allows me to work with. That being said, de-energizing a circuit, a panel, or a set of feeders, is the safest thing you can do before making any repair or upgrade. Around here it is the poco's policy to allow us do what we do tying in "hot".


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Magnettica said:


> I tie in brand new service upgrades usually bare-handed and have been doing it for years.


That's incredibly dumb when a pair of 500 volt gloves is under $100.


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## Cujo (Feb 4, 2012)

tesco said:


> What if an accident happened while working live, shutting down that critical panel _unplanned_?
> 
> This is actually a legit question, how does a panel get worked on in a hospital? You can't just walk into each hospital room and let the patient know you're shutting down their heart monitor for 30 mins.


Its planned in advance so accommodations can be made to move people out of a certain area or it is done live with a lot of paperwork.

Doing any type of work in a hospital takes a very long time.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

We did a generator install at a hospital and the shutdown with no patients onsite aswell as refurb was 3 years in the planning.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

chicken steve said:


> This game is rigged
> 
> It's a no win situation for worker ant
> 
> ~CS~


Yes, and it sucks. The continued stupidity of owners, forman, leads, businesses, homeowners, project managers, etc.......It is not their life, so they don't give a s**t.

I've done the stupid stuff just as much as the next guy. I have been to the hospital, had burnt up skin for months, and scared the living s out of my wife. I won't do it anymore, and I sure wouldn't want to have to look at an employees kids after daddy died on something that was easily avoidable. 

But, money rules most organizations........


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I do it live for the chicks.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I do not really understand why our trade is the only trade expected by some to work in a energized state. A plumber will turn off the water to work on their systems. Like wise a steamfitter will de-energize their systems as well. 

I guess I am not afraid to tell my boss or a customer that my paycheck isn't worth their bottom line.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

There's electricians and then there's electrical equipment technicians. 

Dunno how anyone can say never work live or always work live.. it depends on the situation and your skill set.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> I do not really understand why our trade is the only trade expected by some to work in a energized state. A plumber will turn off the water to work on their systems. Like wise a steamfitter will de-energize their systems as well. I guess I am not afraid to tell my boss or a customer that my paycheck isn't worth their bottom line.


You've never done anything live? Like change a receptacle or a breaker?


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Bkessler said:


> You've never done anything live? Like change a receptacle or a breaker?


Nope. Granted I have only been in the trade for six years. I have been asked to do stuff hot but I simply will not do it. I have worked with a guy who died twice on the way to the hospital because he was working hot. I have worked with a guy who looks like a victim from the burn unit. Both were qualified electricians. 

Now I have heard it from all the pro's on how to work hot "safely" and that it's not that bad. But why take an unnecessary risk for a job that only pays $120k on a real good year and low 40's on a bad year?

As far as the guys who say the customer won't go for it. You choose who you want to work for or do business with.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

kg7879 said:


> Nope. Granted I have only been in the trade for six years. I have been asked to do stuff hot but I simply will not do it. I have worked with a guy who died twice on the way to the hospital because he was working hot. I have worked with a guy who looks like a victim from the burn unit. Both were qualified electricians.


If you go into fibulation I doubt an ambulance would get to you in time, you would need a fibulator right beside you and someone to operate it. Thats why I dont understand going to get checked up after a shock, you ok or your not is what I was taught.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

An electrician who has never worked on a live system scares me.

I'm all for safety, but what is this trade becoming? A bunch of scared technicians.

"I'd check the voltage but y'know.. why take unnecessary risks!"


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Even though I've been out of the field for 20 years I still try to keep up my skills as an electrician frosty.

Just last night I changed a 60 watt bulb in the reading lamp next to my recliner without turning off the switch. 

I did it wearing a pair of rawhide gloves my grand kids gave me for Xmas.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

^^^^

When did move down to these parts?

I didn't think your rural area, included PA, NJ, and NY?


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## christrician (Aug 6, 2011)

What about a hospital situation?


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

flyboy said:


> Even though I've been out of the field for 20 years I still try to keep up my skills as an electrician frosty. Just last night I changed a 60 watt bulb in the reading lamp next to my recliner without turning off the switch. I did it wearing a pair of rawhide gloves my grand kids gave me for Xmas.


Be careful that kind of "living on the edge"work will get you in trouble


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## Spunk#7 (Nov 30, 2012)

"Electrons are your friends", where would we be without em' ?


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

have i worked live.. yes, plenty. have i been shocked.. yes. have i been the one to do some of the most dangerous work.. yes, the most. do i brag about it.. no. do i know the difference of when to or not.. yes. do i get paid enough.. never, but family needs to be fed. i do what i need to do.. when i think i need to. ive tried to learn the difference.. made mistakes and have learned.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

FWIW.....



You can take 10 seconds and be safe, or spend a lifetime being sorry....


Your choice....


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

I understand the need to troubleshoot and do testing live. I would do it with the proper ppe.

I would never work hot changing out a breaker or a receptacle out of convenience for the customer or my employer.

I do not define an electrician as someone who works hot. If i am not an electrician because I do not work hot so be it. There are better ways to make money.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Dnkldorf said:


> ^^^^
> 
> When did move down to these parts?
> 
> I didn't think your rural area, included PA, NJ, and NY?


Been living within a 30 mile radius here in the Mid Hudson since 1964. Northern NJ up until 1968 and in southern Orange County, NY since then.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> I understand the need to troubleshoot and do testing live. I would do it with the proper ppe. I would never work hot changing out a breaker or a receptacle out of convenience for the customer or my employer. I do not define an electrician as someone who works hot. If i am not an electrician because I do not work hot so be it. There are better ways to make money.


That's referred to as being a nancy boy where I'am from.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Bkessler said:


> That's referred to as being a nancy boy where I'am from.


Lol. Im not insulted because I do not care what you or anyone else thinks. 

I worked with a guy who put a extension ladder against an duct to reach a conduit run and because he still could not reach the run he put a folded A frame against the wall with a 2 X 4 screwed to the duct so the ladder wouldn't kick out.

Some people on here will say he was smart for screwing down the 2 X 4 and people like me wonder why natural selection has not taken over.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> Lol. Im not insulted because I do not care what you or anyone else thinks. I worked with a guy who put a extension ladder against an duct to reach a conduit run and because he still could not reach the run he put a folded A frame against the wall with a 2 X 4 screwed to the duct so the ladder wouldn't kick out. Some people on here will say he was smart for screwing down the 2 X 4 and people like me wonder why natural selection has not taken over.


You should care what your boss and coworkers think.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

Bkessler said:


> You should care what your boss and coworkers think.


Lol. Really, Why? I am so distraught at the thought of what my boss or coworkers think of me. 

I sleep easy man. Plenty of money out there to be made without having to take on unnecessary risk. 

Hey if you like working hot, more power to you. I am not judging you for your choices.


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## Wpgshocker (Jan 25, 2013)

Taking any unnecessary risks because someone calls you a name makes you an idiot. 

Working live is careless and lazy. Yes, troubleshooting is a grey area, but that is your call, not your boss'.

Your job is to protect persons and property, you accomplish neither by working live.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Do you guys really shut down the entire place to install an I-line breaker?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

christrician said:


> What about a hospital situation?


I worked in a hospital for many years back when working things hot was the norm. 
But doing work hot in a hospital was always the worse option to take. The chances of a cascading failure was always greater when viewed objectively. 

Have I worked things hot in a hospital? Yes.

Did I ever crawl inside a energized transfer switch to use my feet an lift the gear up so we could bypass during a failure? Yes. 

Was it ever a smart thing to do? No.

But at the time a patients life was more important to me then to stand by and do nothing. 

Working hot is something that should be avoided like small pox. 
But at the same time IMO a qualified electrician can minimize the hazard when it is done. 

After 32+ years I don't wanna work things hot any longer.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

kg7879 said:


> Lol. Really, Why? I am so distraught at the thought of what my boss or coworkers think of me. I sleep easy man. Plenty of money out there to be made without having to take on unnecessary risk. Hey if you like working hot, more power to you. I am not judging you for your choices.


I work safe and use common sense. Whether that's live or not varies. But I don't throw a blanket statement out there that covers every situation.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Someone made an excellent point, all other things being equal, working de-energized is faster. Even if I'm just changing an outlet, if it's live, I'm very careful about what I touch.

It's very easy to toast electronics working live-- dimmers, fan controls, occupancy sensors, etc. I would never work on circuits that have these things live.


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## mayanees (Jan 12, 2009)

*Know the hazard*

If you ever need to perform hot work, the most important thing is to know the hazard you're dealing with, or more specifically, the incident energy level at the exposed bus.
If arc-flash labels aren't posted, use the tables in 70 E to determine the 
PPE requirements for a similar task.
Then you can determine how the work can be done safely.
Installation of a 20-amp breaker in a 200-amp, 240/120V panel will be a completely different animal than racking out a breaker on the secondary of a 1000 kVA, 480V transformer. 
But even the 1000 kVA secondary could be interacted with safely, if you know what the incident energy levels are at different approach distances, and you wear PPE accordingly.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm going to go work at Home Depot. You guys made me terrified of electricity. It sounds so dangerous an unpredictable! I can't believe we just let that stuff in our homes and be around our kids!!!!


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

I just got shocked hanging pvc conduit off an aluminium ladder...


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

sbrn33 said:


> Do you guys really shut down the entire place to install an I-line breaker?


You don't expect an electrician to work with electricity do you? I usually have them shut down the grid, just in case. You never can be too safe you know! After all, it only takes 10 seconds.





Unnecessary Drama said:


> You can take 10 seconds and be safe, or spend a lifetime being sorry....


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## Pharon (Jan 20, 2014)

Wirenuting said:


> I worked in a hospital for many years back when working things hot was the norm.
> But doing work hot in a hospital was always the worse option to take. The chances of a cascading failure was always greater when viewed objectively.
> 
> Have I worked things hot in a hospital? Yes.
> ...


I've been working in a hospital now for almost 12 years and we don't do planned outages hot anymore. But I agree, in an emergency that's a whole different ballgame.

There isn't any area of the hospital that can't be taken down for awhile if you manage it right. Of course, having cooperative departments (Biomed, Security, IS, etc.) sure does make a difference.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

FrunkSlammer said:


> I'm going to go work at Home Depot. You guys made me terrified of electricity. It sounds so dangerous an unpredictable! I can't believe we just let that stuff in our homes and be around our kids!!!!


Why go work at home depot when you can become a consultant and teach us all how to work hot safely 100% of the time without there ever being a chance for a mistake or mishap.

You could also throw in a course how to work safely in a 6 foot trench without shoring or cave in protection.

Or how about a course how to work on top of a ladder safely everyday without ever falling off. Your boss could give you a raise because he would only have to buy a six foot and 8 foot ladder.


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## chewy (May 9, 2010)

kg7879 said:


> Why go work at home depot when you can become a consultant and teach us all how to work hot safely 100% of the time without there ever being a chance for a mistake or mishap.
> 
> You could also throw in a course how to work safely in a 6 foot trench without shoring or cave in protection.
> 
> Or how about a course how to work on top of a ladder safely everyday without ever falling off. Your boss could give you a raise because he would only have to buy a six foot and 8 foot ladder.


Dont get upset.


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## kg7879 (Feb 3, 2014)

chewy said:


> Dont get upset.


Lol. Im not upset. People have different opinions on things and that is fine. 

:thumbup:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

We pull our feeders in live. Helps you to know exactly when to stop, and we're never without a box 'o tunes!


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## lefleuron (May 22, 2010)

Wpgshocker said:


> Working live is careless and lazy. Yes, troubleshooting is a grey area, but that is your call, not your boss'.


 A "grey" area? You must be a resi guy, because I cant do crap without power on.

Pretty hard to tell if you are getting an output, enable, or the proper signal amplitude with an OHM meter. I am pretty sure I would be side-lined if I tried to do things that way.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

IslandGuy said:


> We pull our feeders in live. Helps you to know exactly when to stop, and we're never without a box 'o tunes!


I recently cored two holes through block and punched to 4" holes into the back of a live 480/277 gear.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Because some people don't equate working live to working unsafe. The fact is that they are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> You know where the *real* danger is? Driving to work. Yet you still do that every single day without making threads question why someone would do it...


Why so many thank you's. I've worked on plenty of live things and its partly the reason why I know what I know but I still think it was stupid now that I've grown up a little. This stuff kills, so dont think your bad, cuz your not, just daring and an adrenaline junkie like myself. I think it's awfully ignorant to brag about working live. And working live isn't as hard as you act like it is.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Bkessler said:


> I recently cored two holes through block and punched to 4" holes into the back of a live 480/277 gear.


So? Clap, clap,




You just did that for a pay check.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Chrisibew440 said:


> So? Clap, clap, You just did that for a pay check.


 my point being it can be done safely and worry free. I had a arc flash suit and a rubber insulating mat to stand on. The reason it couldn't be shut off? It was a fuel control building at the navy air station between two runways that had f18 taking off every few minutes. Those military officers are tough to bargain with.


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## Chrisibew440 (Sep 13, 2013)

Bkessler said:


> my point being it can be done safely and worry free. I had a arc flash suit and a rubber insulating mat to stand on. The reason it couldn't be shut off? It was a fuel control building at the navy air station between two runways that had f18 taking off every few minutes. Those military officers are tough to bargain with.


I understand man. I did a lot of plant work and I would let them muscle me around and not shut down stuff but I soon got to know where the plant was in production so if I deemed it safe to turn off then I would. Screw em. And this behavior they began to respect,so as soon I said jump, they asked how high. And if you did it with a cal suit then I have no argument.


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Glad fire fighters don't tell each other on web forums to wait until the fire is off before they go in the building. Unnecessary risk 'n all. :roll eyes:

If we all live in little safety bubbles, the dumb won't die off.. and that's bad for our species.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

Bkessler said:


> my point being it can be done safely and worry free. I had a arc flash suit and a rubber insulating mat to stand on. The reason it couldn't be shut off? It was a fuel control building at the navy air station between two runways that had f18 taking off every few minutes. Those military officers are tough to bargain with.


And if the slug landed across the phases and the gear needed to be replaced would that be a good thing ( $$$$ ) or a bad thing?

Ignoring the machismo for a second ( electricians are cheap and plentiful and blowing one up should never hinder getting the job done ), was doing that live worth the risk of a sudden and potentially expensive shutdown? 

I am certain that the fueling station could be shut down for an hour so that it could be done without misadventure. You got lucky.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

eejack said:


> And if the slug landed across the phases and the gear needed to be replaced would that be a good thing ( $$$$ ) or a bad thing?


It didn't, you know why? Because he's not an incompetent moron. 


> Ignoring the machismo for a second ( electricians are cheap and plentiful and blowing one up should never hinder getting the job done ), was doing that live worth the risk of a sudden and potentially expensive shutdown?


Work carefully, pay attention to what you're doing. It really isn't that difficult. If you can't do live work without screwing something up and causing a catastrophic explosion, don't do live work.


> I am certain that the fueling station could be shut down for an hour so that it could be done without misadventure. You got lucky.


I drank a cup of coffee this morning without spilling it all over myself and getting burned. Boy did I get lucky.



Oh wait, maybe that wasn't luck. It was probably because I'm not a dumbass.


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> It didn't, you know why? Because he's not an incompetent moron. Work carefully, pay attention to what you're doing. It really isn't that difficult. If you can't do live work without screwing something up and causing a catastrophic explosion, don't do live work. I drank a cup of coffee this morning without spilling it all over myself and getting burned. Boy did I get lucky. Oh wait, maybe that wasn't luck. It was probably because I'm not a dumbass.


Accidents NEVER happen to you! YOU are absolutely perfect in EVERYWAY. No need for shut downs if you're around. You must be the best electrician ever. And the best coffee drinker ever. 

No one is perfect and mistakes do happen even if all the precautions are taken. If you don't want to work live don't. You are obviously not comfortable with it. I'm not going to ridicule a guy because of it. I will stop overly brave idiot from just jumping into live gear if I feel he is not taking the precautions.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Bkessler said:


> I recently cored two holes through block and punched to 4" holes into the back of a live 480/277 gear.


As an option, why not install LBs out the top/side/bottom then through the wall to your new panel? The would have taken the risk of coring out of the equation... Then all you are using in a KO punch... Just a thought..


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

union347sparky said:


> Accidents NEVER happen to you! YOU are absolutely perfect in EVERYWAY. No need for shut downs if you're around. You must be the best electrician ever. And the best coffee drinker ever.
> 
> No one is perfect and mistakes do happen even if all the precautions are taken. If you don't want to work live don't. You are obviously not comfortable with it. I'm not going to ridicule a guy because of it. I will stop overly brave idiot from just jumping into live gear if I feel he is not taking the precautions.


Accidents happen when you are careless. 

I am never careless when working hot. While working hot all of my senses are heightened and all of my movements are deliberate. Accidents do not happen when I am working hot, I make sure of that. 

Every live work "accident" that I have ever heard about can be traced back to the electrician being careless. I'm sure there have been accidents that have occurred beyond the electrician's control, but the odds of that are slim imo.

I am not perfect. I have had accidents at work, some with injuries. All of them occurred because I was rushing or distracted, not paying attention to the task at hand. Never while working hot.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

FrunkSlammer said:


> I'm going to go work at Home Depot. You guys made me terrified of electricity. It sounds so dangerous an unpredictable! I can't believe we just let that stuff in our homes and be around our kids!!!!


So true, I am going to quit being an electrician today and go be an accountant or something. Construction and electricity are scary, dangerous, and should be banned.

Oh yeah, and I worked in a live 120/208 panel yesterday with no ppe. :whistling2:


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## FrunkSlammer (Aug 31, 2013)

Yeah some fire fighters have to stay back and watch the fire truck while the other fire fighters are saving lives... 

So we can have a class of electricians who only work on live equipment, but there should be a rating or credential or skill level of electricians who can and do work on live work while the other lesser class electricians watch the van. 

Or yes, accounting is pretty safe work.


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## Safari (Jul 9, 2013)

Wirenuting said:


> I worked in a hospital for many years back when working things hot was the norm.
> But doing work hot in a hospital was always the worse option to take. The chances of a cascading failure was always greater when viewed objectively.
> 
> Have I worked things hot in a hospital? Yes.
> ...


I like. your comments up there"it should be a voided" 
I work hot all the time 415 volts in this one continuous alluminium casting machine which should never stop.Any stop results in heavy losses. but in any other machines I don't work when live

now this has caused me when working in residential I always work hot 240volts AC. not for any particular reason just because its a habit.

haven't had any accidents.not because am so perfect .
guess it's time to stop

your reasons look valid though 

Sent from my HUAWEI Y210-0100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Perhaps we could have but this was an easier less expensive option. And I had zero issues with what I did.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

mayanees said:


> If arc-flash labels aren't posted, use the tables in 70 E to determine the PPE requirements for a similar task. Then you can determine how the work can be done safely.


It is also important to note that in order to _properly_ use the tables, the electrical system must fall into the short circuit current and fault clearing times specified in the table notes.



Wpgshocker said:


> Yes, troubleshooting is a grey area, but that is your call, not your boss'.


I don't believe troubleshooting is a grey area. OSHA CFR 29 1910 .333(a)(1) note 2 states, _“Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts… include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized.” _ However, if the task requires installing or removing components or conductors then it is not considered troubleshooting, and should be covered under an EEWP or de-energized.



EBFD6 said:


> Accidents happen when you are careless. I am never careless when working hot. Accidents do not happen when I am working hot, I make sure of that. Every live work "accident" that I have ever heard about can be traced back to the electrician being careless.


…accidents always happens to _other_ people.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?acc_keyword="Electrocuted"&keyword_list=on


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

all my close calls with death had nothing to do with electricity, though I do work live when its easier.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

When they make electricians that never make mistakes, when no tool or screw could find a path between hot and ground. when it is impossible to touch anything but the point we intended and when I can see through solid materials it might be safe to work hot.

Even in residential where there is no real arc flash hazard I have heard 120 volts can still kill you.

I was an electrician for nearly 17 years before I saw my first arc flash video. Until then I thought all short circuits are controlled by the OC devices and not that most electrical injuries and fatalities are burns, not electrocutions that I came to realize a lot of electricians before me are still dying to work hot.
WorkSafe rules and code both prohibit hot work unless it cvan be shown that shutting the equipment off presents at least an equal hazard to working hot.
Over Christmas I was at my mom in laws and it took a long time to find the breaker that controlled the outside GFCI. I am sure I could have change that outlet in much less time than it took to find the breaker. I still turned it off first.
I was one of the guys that used to work hot a lot. Now I am the guy who won't.
I never want to be the guy in an arc fault incident.


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> Accidents happen when you are careless.
> 
> I am never careless when working hot. While working hot all of my senses are heightened and all of my movements are deliberate. Accidents do not happen when I am working hot, I make sure of that.
> 
> ...


Holy guano are you full of yourself.

Senses heightened? 

You should be an astronaut or a brain surgeon with that kind of extra-ordinary advantage. Can you move things with your mind as well, predict the future, fly?

I hope for your customers sake that you are just trolling because no one is that good. If you truly believe that accidents only happen to the careless then there is nothing to say.


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

eejack said:


> Holy guano I am full of MYSELF.


fixed it for you


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## union347sparky (Feb 29, 2012)

robnj772 said:


> fixed it for you


Lame.


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## ArcSlayer (Mar 19, 2014)

Switched said:


> What constantly amazes me is the service guy's who think they don't have the ability to turn a circuit or two off. Why not?
> 
> Explain the economic ramifications of what could happen with the loss of power, short circuiting something, or injury/death. Most managers of a business and/or facilities guys will arrange for the power to be shut off. Especially in a home, how hard is it to shut down power to a house for a few minutes to a few hours?
> 
> Are you saying we should troubleshoot a problem circuit while the power is off? I'm all ears...


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

ArcSlayer said:


> Are you saying we should troubleshoot a problem circuit while the power is off? I'm all ears...


*STEP #1* Troubleshoot with power ON and determine the problem. 

*STEP #2* Turn power OFF and do repairs.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Some troubleshooting is easier to do with the power off, like a dead short, or any other scenario where a break trips quickly.

There's another recent thread where a guy troubleshooted with the power on and found an attic fire.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

A task I had to do recently: There was an area that had multiple outlets and circuits added and changed over the years, I think the office there need more power for servers and such things. Following remodeling, there were a lot of dead outlets, outlets on circuits that did not make sense, etc. Trying to trace the wiring left me with a lot of questions,

First thing I did was confirm all of the outlets in question were de-energized. Then I took my meter on the Diode test setting (so it would beep with a dead short) and wired a male plug to each lead, with a long extension cord. That way I could plug into any two outlets, and a beep indicated that they were daisy chained together. One I determined which ones were daisy changed, I removed the male plug from one lead and replaced it with an alligator clip. I was able to trace every single circuit this way in an hour or so.


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> Some troubleshooting is easier to do with the power off, like a dead short, or any other scenario where a break trips quickly.
> 
> There's another recent thread where a guy troubleshooted with the power on and found an attic fire.


Very true! There's a million different scenarios and not 1 method that will work for every single case. 

I'm most certainly not recommending to keep turning a tripped overload or breaker back on until you let the smoke out. However, there are many cases where having the power on is necessary to determine the problem such as verifying I/O, viewing diagnostic LEDs, drive error messages, measuring voltage at circuit board test points, etc.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The day I need to shut power off to perform my job I will hang my tools up and start mowing lawns.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Just a thought, no shirt or gloves


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Shockdoc said:


> Just a thought, no shirt or gloves


No spraypaint on the street camera? Where's the shockdoc I used to know?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Going_Commando said:


> No spraypaint on the street camera? Where's the shockdoc I used to know?


I was thinking confetti on red light cameras


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Shockdoc said:


> The day I need to shut power off to perform my job I will hang my tools up and start mowing lawns.


Or picking up trash in the ditches.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> I was thinking confetti on red light cameras


laser pens work too


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

So do you fellas think safety should be a personal choice, or legislated to be mandatory ?

~CS~


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> So do you fellas think safety should be a personal choice, or legislated to be mandatory ?
> 
> ~CS~


It should be a personal choice. We have way to much government the way it is.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

One vote for personal choice :thumbsup:

ok...next.......~CS~


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> So do you fellas think safety should be a personal choice, or legislated to be mandatory ?
> 
> ~CS~


I tied that 3ph 200 amp service in 15 minutes up there without the slightest tingle. I was more worried about an idiot driver hitting the pole whilst I was up there.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

That's two.......:thumbsup:

next!

~CS~


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## jett95 (Sep 18, 2012)

Today i put in a 3ph 480v 20amp breaker today and im still alive and kickin


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## daks (Jan 16, 2013)

There is no absolute answer to whether to work live or not. All depends on the person and the particular task. No-one should be forced to work live if they don't feel comfortable with it, and working live should be avoided as much as possible. No matter how good you are, sh*t happens, and 9/10 it's not the person burning on the gurneys fault when that arc flash went off. But they are the one who gets to live through having burns cleaned every day, cadaver skin on their body till the skin grafts take, and being called incompetent because a worksite was roped off for days while the ministry investigates. 

Just google "3rd degree electrical burns" have a look at some of those nice tasty pictures .... the pictures don't do justice to the level of pain that those people went through. 

People forget.. even 12V can kill you...


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> So do you fellas think safety should be a personal choice, or legislated to be mandatory ?
> 
> ~CS~


Do I even need to answer?


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

I once watched my boss who had over 30yrs in the trade clamp on to a live bus in a cabinet, a utility worker nailed him with a broom stick. I then finished up the tie in without incident.
While I am engaged in my business I am 100% in my business, distractions such as cell phones and clowns can wait till after.


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## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

When I was cutting meat for a living I always scolded people for using the bandsaw while it was on. Its just way too dangerous.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

butcher733 said:


> When I was cutting meat for a living I always scolded people for using the bandsaw while it was on. Its just way too dangerous.


Too much emphasis placed on and in the name of safety these days.
Makes me want to pull up to a gas pump and start pumping with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

daks said:


> No matter how good you are, sh*t happens, and 9/10 it's not the person burning on the gurneys fault when that arc flash went off.


This is absolutely not true. Every arc flash incident I have ever heard about or read about was a direct result of a mistake on the part of the electrician. I know some freak accidents happen, but they are the exception and not the rule. 

Since we are pulling statistics out of our a$$es, I would say the numbers are more like 99/100 times it is the electrician's fault. The other 1% is classified as "sometimes sh!t happens".


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## eejack (Jul 14, 2012)

EBFD6 said:


> This is absolutely not true. Every arc flash incident I have ever heard about or read about was a direct result of a mistake on the part of the electrician. I know some freak accidents happen, but they are the exception and not the rule.
> 
> Since we are pulling statistics out of our a$$es, I would say the numbers are more like 99/100 times it is the electrician's fault. The other 1% is classified as "sometimes sh!t happens".


It happens.

Painful as hell - mostly recovered in a little more than a week.

What happened? I was plugging in an extension cord and it arced...

( and yes, that is the glove I should have been wearing )


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

EBFD6 said:


> This is absolutely not true. Every arc flash incident I have ever heard about or read about was a direct result of a mistake on the part of the electrician. I know some freak accidents happen, but they are the exception and not the rule....


 Without even knowing anything about you, I can very comfortably say I've seen guys smarter and more talented than you make mistakes.

It's the reason I'm not gun-shy about admitting my mistakes, because I've watched some amazing people screw up, and if they're allowed to do it, then dammit, a shmoe like me sure can.

And that's what's wrong safety policies like yours: The whole thing appears to revolves almost exclusively around "Well, I just won't screw up." 

Yes you will. The only question is how severe will the consequences be? Hopefully for your sake, your bosses sake, your customers sake, and your coworkers sake, your screwups stay minor.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> Too much emphasis placed on and in the name of safety these days.
> Makes me want to pull up to a gas pump and start pumping with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth.


you dont?:laughing::laughing:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Alot revolves around concentration, comfort, and skill. In the case of most accidents, at least one if not all three are missing from the installer/service man.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

Big John said:


> Yes you will. The only question is how severe will the consequences be? Hopefully for your sake, your bosses sake, your customers sake, and your coworkers sake, your screwups stay minor.



Nice post.

I think everybody should know the risks of doing hot work.

If they decide to do it,( It may sound coarse)if they burn their face off It was their choice.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Awg-Dawg said:


> Nice post.
> 
> I think everybody should know the risks of doing hot work.
> 
> If they decide to do it,( It may sound coarse)if they burn their face off It was their choice.


I agree. However, if someone's choice means all my electrical equipment will suffer a fatal meltdown and lost production as a result, or there will be collateral damage to other people, then you no longer have that choice.


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## Awg-Dawg (Jan 23, 2007)

MTW said:


> I agree. However, if someone's choice means all my electrical equipment will suffer a fatal meltdown and lost production as a result, or there will be collateral damage to other people, then you no longer have that choice.


 I would agree with that Peter.


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## Tapeman (Feb 24, 2009)

Never trust an electrician with curly hair!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

EBFD6 said:


> Do I even need to answer?


Not _really _EBFD 

But weather one advocates personal choice _or_ legislative mandates, they both are flawed....

The _real_ fix is engineering isolative means. The more i hear from our foreign counterparts, the more it's apparent we're rather behind in said respect

And so our focus is addressing the sympthoms _instead_ of the disease , in the creation of the safety biz, and it's a huge multi layered biz in America from the PPE cha cha to the ambulance chasers and insurance kingpins

They legislate safety nazi's to spring outta switchgear, or leave the coin toss up to the yutz in the field , which would be _irrelevant_ to most of these players, because they're MO isn't going to be altered by either stance

We're (us worker ants) are in a no win situation, they hold all the cards

~CS~


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## Dan Wheeler (Nov 22, 2013)

Hack Work said:


> Next we should ban working with knives or other sharp objects. I've already been to jobsites at pharmaceutical companies who do that.
> 
> We should push for it to be a recognized safety rule nationwide.


I've worked on some Bechtel camps. One would not allow Olfa knives, unless it was a spring loaded so blade won't stay open, pain in the you know what to work with. Took a long time to get the standard electrical knives approved.

Also took me about 2 days to change a receptacle or breaker. Write up JHA's, get them approved, get LOTO forms filled out and approved, then do the 5 min job. Good part was getting paid 10 hour shifts for those 2 days for a 5 min job.
Hard to believe a lot of these jobs get done.


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## al_smelter (Jan 25, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> So do you fellas think safety should be a personal choice, or legislated to be mandatory ?
> 
> ~CS~


Safety is always a personal choice. Even if mandated, nothing MAKES you follow it. You may be fired... or worse, but it's still your choice.

Most things are mandated because we are either too stupid, too ignorant, or too hard headed to make a correct personal choice.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

al_smelter said:


> Safety is always a personal choice. Even if mandated, nothing MAKES you follow it. You may be fired... or worse, but it's still your choice.
> 
> Most things are mandated because we are either too stupid, too ignorant, or too hard headed to make a correct personal choice.


But left to the individual it's anarchy Al

because if your _'personal choice' _isn't what the customer wants, your fired

*vs.*

left to the '_powers that be' _who will never, not in their wildest dreams, create a level playing field for safety

~CS~


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## Michigan Master (Feb 25, 2013)

Dan Wheeler said:


> I've worked on some Bechtel camps. One would not allow Olfa knives, unless it was a spring loaded so blade won't stay open, pain in the you know what to work with. Took a long time to get the standard electrical knives approved.


We have a similar rule. Regular utility knives used to be common but there were too many folks cutting themselves (usually folks opening or breaking down boxes) so management eliminated them and implemented that spring loaded Ofla knife and the Clever Cutter (a.k.a. idiot knife). 

It took some effort to finally get that policy relaxed for the skilled trades. Cable strippers are great, but don't work for everything. We are now authorized to use a real knife, for certain specific tasks only, and must wear a cut resistant glove on the hand not holding the knife.


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