# Subpanels



## jwiehagen76 (Jan 5, 2009)

:001_huh:Bonding question . When adding a sub to an existing panel board i know not to bond neutral to the ground in the sub but must be bonded back at main. Why is that? It is actually the same node. Asked my instructor a few years ago no real answer. "follow the code"


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

jwiehagen76 said:


> :001_huh:Bonding question . When adding a sub to an existing panel board i know not to bond neutral to the ground in the sub but must be bonded back at main. Why is that? It is actually the same node. Asked my instructor a few years ago no real answer. "follow the code"


If you bond the neutral and the ground in a subpanel then you are creating a parallel path back on the neutral. The ground or EGC is only meant to carry current should a fault arise not during normal operation.


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## jwiehagen76 (Jan 5, 2009)

Makes sense. never did it but was wondering why. thankyou!


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## chefsparky (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok so as I read this I have a question. If I go into a house and have to change a panel that was done with the netural and grounds together then I need to get a ground kit and seperate them to there own bars, right ?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

chefsparky said:


> Ok so as I read this I have a question. If I go into a house and have to change a panel that was done with the netural and grounds together then I need to get a ground kit and seperate them to there own bars, right ?


Not if it is a main panel. The grounded and grounding conductors are the same in a main panel. They are separated in a sub panel.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

*same topic different question*

do you guys bond the grounding electrode conductor to the grounded conductor in the meter or the service


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## chefsparky (Mar 22, 2008)

Main panel being the first one after the meter?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

chefsparky said:


> Main panel being the first one after the meter?


yes 

does a feed thru lug panel constitute a subpanel?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

nolabama said:


> yes
> 
> does a feed thru lug panel constitute a subpanel?


I use main breaker feed thru panels. This would not be a sub panel. Any panel after the main disconnect is a sub panel.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

electricista said:


> Not if it is a main panel. The grounded and grounding conductors are the same in a main panel. They are separated in a sub panel.


 
:no: Wrong answer...yes the Grounded and Grounding bars are BONDED, but they are not the same, and the conductors should all be terminated on the appropriate bar.

250.24 (A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections A grounded conductor shall not be connected to normally no-current carrying metal parts of equipment, to equipment grounding conductor(s), or be re-connected to ground on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.

OR

200.2(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a mettalic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.

:whistling2:


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

TheRick said:


> :no: Wrong answer...yes the Grounded and Grounding bars are BONDED, but they are not the same, and the conductors should all be terminated on the appropriate bar.


You are correct in that those conductors are not the same but if you read my other post I believe you will see that is not what I meant. They are terminated on the same bar in the main panel and separated in the sub panel. 

The grounded and grounding conductors do not have to be terminated on separate bars. Your answer of should is your opinion not an NEC regulation.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

electricista said:


> You are correct in that those conductors are not the same but if you read my other post I believe you will see that is not what I meant. They are terminated on the same bar in the main panel and separated in the sub panel.
> 
> The grounded and grounding conductors do not have to be terminated on separate bars. Your answer of should is your opinion not an NEC regulation.


:no: Nope still wrong...read the 2 code references I provided. And here is a picture if reading comprehension is an issue, you are correct my use of the word "should" indicated I may have been voicing my opinion...I _*should*_ have said SHALL.


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

TheRick said:


> :no: Nope still wrong...read the 2 code references I provided. And here is a picture if reading comprehension is an issue, you are correct my use of the word "should" indicated I may have been voicing my opinion...I _*should*_ have said SHALL.


First off you don't need to be a wise ass with the reading comprehension stuff. I read your post and the articles and your diagram is not what I was talking about. My post was talking about installing the grounding and grounded conductors on the same bar. I never said anything about using the panel as the continuity for the neutral. 



> Not if it is a main panel. The grounded and grounding conductors are the same in a main panel. They are separated in a sub panel.


 That statement, which I thought I clarified, was stating that those conductors (grounding and grounded) can be on the same bar in the main panel. They must be separated in the sub panel. This I thought was what the op was talking about. So please keep your insults to yourself. If you want to have a discussion fine but I don't need the condescending attitude.


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## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

electricista said:


> First off you don't need to be a wise ass with the reading comprehension stuff. I read your post and the articles and your diagram is not what I was talking about. My post was talking about installing the grounding and grounded conductors on the same bar. I never said anything about using the panel as the continuity for the neutral.
> 
> That statement, which I thought I clarified, was stating that those conductors (grounding and grounded) can be on the same bar in the main panel. They must be separated in the sub panel. This I thought was what the op was talking about. So please keep your insults to yourself. If you want to have a discussion fine but I don't need the condescending attitude.


 
Just to clear what seems to be a tense air here, Rick is not being a "wise ass" with that post. Rick is not one of those posters, you just took him that way. Rick has always been out front and one of the first to step up and help out in anybody's questions. Eaze up, he's not calling you out, just trying to simplify things for other viewer's


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

76nemo said:


> Just to clear what seems to be a tense air here, Rick is not being a "wise ass" with that post. Rick is not one of those posters, you just took him that way. Rick has always been out front and one of the first to step up and help out in anybody's questions. Eaze up, he's not calling you out, just trying to simplify things for other viewer's


Well, if that is the case, I publicly apologize. I took the the statement "if reading comprehension is an issue" as an affront insulting my intelligence.


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## TheRick (Apr 13, 2008)

I can see where my comment could have been construed as "wise-ass" and I apologize if it was taken that way. Sometimes the wording of the NEC can be a little vague and a picture helps...which is the point I was making. Sorry if any offense was taken, none was intended.


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