# New Pics of a 2 year old installation



## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

My projects usually leave no time for pictures. I had a service call last Saturday at a rock quarry where I installed two 480 volt, 600 HP crushers two years ago. Quick service call; located a defective temperature transmitter on a cone crusher thrust bearing that was stopping one unit from running. Took a few pics while I was there. Twin 300 HP motors on each crusher. Installed over sized junction boxes for motor terminations to allow for parallel cables. Fabricated custom support brackets from 1/4" stock for off the shelf junction boxes. Customer wants less than 1% used for VD calculations to motors so each motor has two parallel 350 kcmil GGC cables feeding. I think that the two reels of GGC weighed about 7,000 pounds each. We fabricate and install all of the steel towers and supports to install our cable trays on.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I am always impressed how easily those machine can crush stone. Those are huge motor- 600 hp at 480v


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## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

Looks good. I bet everything at a rock quarry would need to be way over engineered due to all the physical damage that all the equipment takes each day.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Nice work on the install, Steve.

And you know how to troubleshoot it quick .... says a lot


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## dogleg (Dec 22, 2008)

Nice work!


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Looks good! Well planned installation. 

One of the crush plants I work at has a Nordberg HP400, just a bit smaller than the ones you work on and it has a single 400 HP motor, 6 pole (1200RPM). 

Did you need to roll the phases in order for the motors to pull the same current?

2 parallel 350s is pretty good sized for a 300 HP motor but given the voltage drop requirement, it seem about right. 

VFDs or soft-starts? With 2 motors turning the same shaft, I've found it better to go with one VFD or one soft-start driving both motors that one each.


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## Bourbon County (Aug 19, 2020)

Good looking install, I'm really proud to see someone that practices craftsmanship.

That was a very tight VD spec, did they actually measure it at the buy-off?


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Bourbon County said:


> Good looking install, I'm really proud to see someone that practices craftsmanship.
> 
> That was a very tight VD spec, did they actually measure it at the buy-off?


I agree, 1% is ridiculous, 5% is tight with motors.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

impressive!


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

micromind said:


> Looks good! Well planned installation.
> 
> One of the crush plants I work at has a Nordberg HP400, just a bit smaller than the ones you work on and it has a single 400 HP motor, 6 pole (1200RPM).
> 
> ...


We removed two HP 400s and replaced with the 600s. Used one 600 HP Benshaw soft starter for each crusher. Custom built with two separate overload relays in each one so the individual motors are protected. The GGC cables start out with quite a bit higher amperage tables to start calculations from than standard cables or wiring in conduit.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

micromind said:


> I agree, 1% is ridiculous, 5% is tight with motors.


Their in house electrician is 84 years old, been there since the 70s. He knows what he wants from experience. All of the high inertia loads (crushers) are calculated at 1%. Conveyors and stuff are usually at 3%.


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## Veteran Sparky (Apr 21, 2021)

Very cool. We built a plant similar back in 90's. At the time cone crusher was largest in country. German made. Might even be same brand as your's, I can't remember.
Built a conveyor to move the bowling ball size stones up to the upper plant to save money on the Euclid maintenance.


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

SteveBayshore said:


> The GGC cables start out with quite a bit higher amperage tables to start calculations from than standard cables or wiring in conduit.


Does that effect VD calculations?


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

micromind said:


> Did you need to *roll the phases* in order for the motors to pull the same current?


I do not know what this means, could you educate me please? Thanks.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I had Vulcan Materials as a customer and I hated to go to the quarry. I had dropped the tools and was a support/sales/acct manager for several plants. I always got roped into looking at something while there.
Imagine having to navigate all that mess with dress clothes on? Even with Tivek disposable coveralls it was a bear. Especially in the summer.
These guys thought they were the only customer I had and demanded much of my time. Great customer and largest acct I had though.
Nice work Steve. What drives and motors did you provide?
They were very specific and locked into just a couple manufacturers. They hated Baldor, but loved Weg and Toshiba. They liked Benshaw drives as well. Of course they used "crusher duty" motors on anything over 100 hp.
I had to go out there on a Saturday and bring a drive to them. All I had on the shelf was a Baldor 18H. After we installed it and got it running they told me to send or have someone come back on Monday to put in a drive they liked.
They did pay a restock fee and I was able to sell it again as a used drive. They were actually a pain in the ass. Had to go to the car wash every time I went out there.


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

oldsparky52 said:


> I do not know what this means, could you educate me please? Thanks.


I think he means if motor A is wired/phased A-B-C, the other motor would be B-A-C or something like that. That way current was evened out. 
The plants I had used a lot of medium voltage.


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## WannabeTesla (Feb 24, 2020)

Beautiful.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

oldsparky52 said:


> I do not know what this means, could you educate me please? Thanks.


Usually it means if you have T1 on A, T2 on B, and T3 on C, you would move T1 to B, T2 to C, and T3 to A.
Basically “rolling” the phases around. Often times this will even out current imbalances due to motor winding mysteries because of “reasons”. 

Sometimes you may have to roll them again one more time and then determine which of the three ways has the best current balance.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

MHElectric said:


> …I bet everything at a rock quarry would need to be way over engineered due to all the physical damage that all the equipment takes each day.


You would think so, but no. That industry is notoriously cheap and will under-engineer something to save a dollar today even though it means buying it again next month. Used to drive me nuts.

Every once in a while though you come across someone who has figured it all out and understands that you make more money avoiding downtime than you do avoiding initial cost. I came across a guy once who plotted his energy use with his material production and noticed an increase in KWH/ton after a few months of post-shutdown. He figured out that when the liners of his crusher wore down, more material went through too large, so it ended up getting recycled back through the crusher, using more energy for the same net tonnage. So he plotted out the optimum wear level and would replace his liners even though they still had more than half of their material. He would then sell his used liners to his competitors and laugh all the way to the bank.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

So few customers actually pay attention to the information available. Mining is a brutal business and some have figured out how to build and take care of their facilities. Sadly some have not.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

oldsparky52 said:


> I do not know what this means, could you educate me please? Thanks.


Rolling phases explained from Franklin Submersible Pump Manual. Luckily, this customer doesn't want any un-planned shutdowns. Everything we design or install is over sized and top quality. Most motors are out for rebuild, cycling every three years during the winter shutdown. Most motors also have at least one spare on the shelf. And yes, all of the equipment for the crushers is crusher duty.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

460 Delta said:


> Usually it means if you have T1 on A, T2 on B, and T3 on C, you would move T1 to B, T2 to C, and T3 to A.
> Basically “rolling” the phases around. Often times this will even out current imbalances due to motor winding mysteries because of “reasons”.
> 
> Sometimes you may have to roll them again one more time and then determine which of the three ways has the best current balance.


This^^^^^

It'll work with single motors as well. 

If a motor has different currents, especially if it's a 'high strung' model, like a submersible well pump or a hermetically sealed compressor, rolling the phases will often result in better current balance. 

The rotation is the same and even though it doesn't make any sense, it often works.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

SteveBayshore said:


> Rolling phases explained from Franklin Submersible Pump Manual. Luckily, this customer doesn't want any un-planned shutdowns. Everything we design or install is over sized and top quality. Most motors are out for rebuild, cycling every three years during the winter shutdown. Most motors also have at least one spare on the shelf. And yes, all of the equipment for the crushers is crusher duty.


I didn't know this PDF existed but it's exactly correct.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

micromind said:


> I didn't know this PDF existed but it's exactly correct.


It wasn't really a PDF. I scanned one page out of an 80 page Franklin Pump manual that came with a 200 HP submersible pump about 10 years ago.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

It is so nice to have a customer that understands and preforms maintenance. My experience is more on the order of, "What do you mean it broke, we just installed it 8 years ago."
So many large companies have gone to logistics groups who's motto's are "we can get anything in 48 hours so there is no reason to stock anything". Then critical processes fail and people have to go home while the logistics group wring their hands, "we had an agreement with so and so to provide said part"
Never understood them or the concept.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

SWDweller said:


> It is so nice to have a customer that understands and preforms maintenance. My experience is more on the order of, "What do you mean it broke, we just installed it 8 years ago."
> So many large companies have gone to logistics groups who's motto's are "we can get anything in 48 hours so there is no reason to stock anything". Then critical processes fail and people have to go home while the logistics group wring their hands, "we had an agreement with so and so to provide said part"
> Never understood them or the concept.


This is a classic difference between a person with actual experience and a college educated idiot. 

The person with experience will want to keep critical parts on hand because they know better than to rely on outside sources. 

The educated idiot has been trained to believe what the outside sources say and 'saves money' by reducing inventory. 

Wonder which one will result in higher net profit..............


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I believe it actually goes farther than that. Working for Eaton the mantra was " if you can not measure it, you can not manage it." Forced we guys in the field to be come data entry slugs.
It pissed me off so much I would stay on the job, in the parking lot if need be to finish the data fields before leaving or going to my room. ( not an overtime position ) In the beginning all they did was yell at us that our numbers were not in by Monday 10am, first delivery from FedEx to the corporate offices, fairly quickly they got to the idea of "productive hours". Evenings, weekends, and Holiday's hours did not count. You could get 8 maybe 10 hours a day M-F for productive time. The worker bees revolted, the creator was fired, the policy was revised but still not to what we needed. If I took my allotted vacation, and the holiday's given by Eaton I was less the ~80% productive. Which was in the subject to dismissal category. 

Moving on from there, the mantra became, "just in time". Which was/is taught to the MBA's of the planet. It works ~60% of the time, IMO. Close enough for the office people as they were unaffected by the weather.

I have said that the people educated in logistics, and warehousing will be the death of the service industry. Special order has become primary when going to the parts store.

Saw a blurb on TV that said the California ports are way behind unloading container ships.
Toys for Christmas may be in short supply for this holiday season and maybe the next.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Cool, you guys build out the sea can MCC too?



micromind said:


> I didn't know this PDF existed but it's exactly correct.





SteveBayshore said:


> It wasn't really a PDF. I scanned one page out of an 80 page Franklin Pump manual that came with a 200 HP submersible pump about 10 years ago.


The Franklin AIM book is on their website now. We used to get it in binders from our Franklin distributor, probably the best bible for submersible well motors.


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