# Panel pictures



## electricista

That is beautiful work.As an EC I appreciate the time taken to make your work look good. I tell my workers speed is not everything but we certainly have to weigh the speed versus the time spent to make it look good.

One point I will make. It has always been my interpretation that art. 200.7(C) requires the white conductor being used as a ungrounded conductor needs to be taped the entire length. Am I incorrect? I have always done that but thought it was a waste of tape.


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## Speedy Petey

Come on Mike. That thing looks like crap. :smartass:
What's with the 2" KO seal? :laughing:


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## Speedy Petey

BTW, nice job! :thumbsup:


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## randomkiller

Very neat work. Nice job.


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## mattsilkwood

looks pretty good


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## rexowner

electricista said:


> ... It has always been my interpretation that art. 200.7(C) requires the white conductor being used as a ungrounded conductor needs to be taped the entire length. Am I incorrect? I have always done that but thought it was a waste of tape.


I think you are incorrect. I usually tape about an inch
or so and have never had a problem.

Back to the OP, beautiful work!


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## 480sparky

I may have posted this before, but here's mine:


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## ce2two

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


 thats sw e e t ...nice job:yes::yes:


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## sherman

We should have the option to buy a glass cover for our panels. It would expose the real hacks.


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## 3rdGen

Very nice makeup....But twisting the grounds makes for tough removal (Panel change etc.) Otherwise *LOOKS GREAT!*


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## 480sparky

sherman said:


> We should have the option to buy a glass cover for our panels. It would expose the real hacks.


 
I've heard some places in Europe that's SOP..... plexi covers.


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## user4818

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


To quote from Marc Shunk, if I saw you making a panel that neat, I would say: "That looks great. Now get back to work."

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that level of neatness is absurd. What purpose does twisting the grounds together serve, other than making the next guy curse like a drunken sailor when he has to deal with it?


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## electricalperson

this trade needs more people who take pride in there work and treat the electrical trade as a skilled craft and not as a typical construction job. i cant stand the hurry and get it done attitude i hear people say. i would rather spend an extra hour to make something look like a professional as been there and not someone trying to hurry and go to the next one


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## John

Commercial Panel with a little extra something.

View attachment 991


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## heel600

Peter D said:


> To quote from Marc Shunk, if I saw you making a panel that neat, I would say: "That looks great. Now get back to work."
> 
> Sorry to rain on your parade, but that level of neatness is absurd. What purpose does twisting the grounds together serve, other than making the next guy curse like a drunken sailor when he has to deal with it?


 
I think his panel looks great! Probably took him 15 minutes longer than if the wires were thrown in helter skelter.

Twisting the grounds? takes an extra minute, looks good, what's the problem?

How often do you rip wires out of a panel?

Only thing I do differently is I leave all conductors that go to the breakers all the same length, about 4" longer than the panel. I'm a big believer in keeping enough wire to move breakers around.

Every panel should look like that.


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## ralph

I agree, it is a real neat job. But , an extra minute to twist the grounds together ? That would have to take longer than that. I dont really get the point of the twist i guess.
If im paying someone , and they do that, we would have to talk.I e seen people take hours to do a panel like that, and at 30 bucks an hour,is it really needed ?? 480's panel is just fine , and Im sure it was done much faster


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## JohnJ0906

heel600 said:


> How often do you rip wires out of a panel?


All the time.

Service changes, upgrades, panel swaps......

Obviously, that panel won't have to be changed for years, but I hope I'm not the person doing it.


I won't dispute that it looks good, but there simply is no good reason to twist the EGCs like that.


Besides that, good job! :thumbsup:


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## Kletis

I think all of the panels pictured looked very good and showed very good workmanship. I don't personally twist the grounds because I agree that if you have to take it apart it makes it more difficult. Having said that, I am sure there are plenty of things that I do that many would think were unnecessary or strange. 

Good work fellas!!!


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## 480sparky

John said:


> Commercial Panel with a little extra something.
> 
> View attachment 991


Why two ground bars?


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## JohnJ0906

480sparky said:


> Why two ground bars?


Looks like an Isolated Ground.


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## 480sparky

JohnJ0906 said:


> Looks like an Isolated Ground.


OK, _now_ I see the #10 ground in the top left.

Don't ever get old!


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## John

480sparky said:


> OK, _now_ I see the #10 ground in the top left.
> 
> Don't ever get old!


#6 :icon_wink:


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## JohnJ0906

480sparky said:


> Don't ever get old!


Gotta disagree Ken - I'm told it beats the alternative.... :whistling2:


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## John

randomkiller said:


> Very neat work. Nice job.


+1 but......

It all depends on who you want to impress, yourself, your boss, the customer or the inspector. 
I you want to impress yourself, it’s pretty easy to do a real good job and take a lot of time so you can do it. 
Your boss may want a good looking job but might not be willing to pay you for the extra time to do it. 
The customer may not even see the work and they will want the cheapest price for the work .“see boss motive” .
If you are trying to impress the inspector it may well work. If you can dazzle him with a real good looking panel, he may overlook something else that is not quite right.:whistling2:


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## John

JohnJ0906 said:


> Gotta disagree Ken - I'm told it beats the alternative.... :whistling2:


If the alternative is moving to Florida...I agree. :thumbsup:


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## 480sparky

John said:


> #6 :icon_wink:


I thought it was #10 going to the bottom bar.


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## TOOL_5150

Heres a few panels I did recently, working on 2 more currently. With a little extra.





























And a pic of the network rack in my server room.










~Matt


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## cdnelectrician

Nice work! Just one question for you all, are you allowed to run branch circuits through the main breaker compartment? You can't do that here...


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## user4818

cdnelectrician said:


> Nice work! Just one question for you all, are you allowed to run branch circuits through the main breaker compartment? You can't do that here...


Our panels don't have main breaker compartments. What you see is exactly how they are.


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## user4818

heel600 said:


> I think his panel looks great! Probably took him 15 minutes longer than if the wires were thrown in helter skelter.
> 
> Twisting the grounds? takes an extra minute, looks good, what's the problem?


I think it looks great too. I never said that it didn't look good. 

What's the problem? The grounds are all twisted together. There is no reason whatsoever to do that. None at all. Complete waste of time.


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## 480sparky

TOOL_5150 said:


> Heres a few panels I did recently, working on 2 more currently. With a little extra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...............
> ~Matt


Personally, I would have 180'd the panel so the lugs would be on the bottom. Save some copper.


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## gilbequick

Pic in the OP looks good, but if I were the boss on that job I'd have to have a chat with the guy who did the work and tell him that as I appreciate the quality of the work, the time took to do it is not necessary. There's neat and then there's overkill, that's overkill. 

If it were my personal house I'd do it, but not for a normal resi job.


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## iaov

Peter D said:


> To quote from Marc Shunk, if I saw you making a panel that neat, I would say: "That looks great. Now get back to work."
> 
> Sorry to rain on your parade, but that level of neatness is absurd. What purpose does twisting the grounds together serve, other than making the next guy curse like a drunken sailor when he has to deal with it?


I have to agree with Mark that looks great now get back to work.


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## user4818

iaov said:


> I have to agree with Mark that looks great now get back to work.


Just so we are clear, I said that using Marc's line of "That looks great. Now get back to work." I just took it from him and applied it to this situation. Marc hasn't given his 2 cents in this thread yet.


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## gilbequick

480sparky said:


> Personally, I would have 180'd the panel so the lugs would be on the bottom. Save some copper.


Absolutely, done that many-o-times. Homeowners don't know the difference and certainly don't care. As long as it's labeled correctly and neatly you're good to go.


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## mikeg_05

Speedy Petey said:


> Come on Mike. That thing looks like crap. :smartass:
> What's with the 2" KO seal? :laughing:


lol i know i know, for sure a "dough" moment.


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## piette

I twist my grounds like that as well, and I can say without doubt, it takes maybe 15 seconds per pair of grounds to twist them. It takes no time at all. By the way, the "pain in the butt for a service change" deal is a bunch of bunk in my eyes. The way my panels are done, if someone is going to do a service change, simply loosen the grounds on the bar, the nuetrals on the bar and the breaker screw and take the locknut off the romex connector and put in new panel and do the reverse of what you just did. It doesn't get much easier than that.

I too think the original post panel looks nice, but I would be pissd if I was paying that guy. Maybe in my own house, but thats it.

Jeff


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## TOOL_5150

480sparky said:


> Personally, I would have 180'd the panel so the lugs would be on the bottom. Save some copper.


Well, that would make sence, and the panel is labeled to be in either direction, I just prefer to have the main on the top. I also had a small coil of #2 on the truck, so I want really wasting, just using up scrap. I would have to have extended all the noodles as well, which I really hate wirenuts in a panel if at all possible.This was on the other side, so you can see why I had to come in so low:











~Matt


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## bobelectric

I don't see the reasoning for twisting the grounding conductors


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## MDShunk

I'd probably say, "That looks great. Let's not make this a habit. Get back to work". :thumbsup:


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## heel600

JohnJ0906 said:


> All the time.
> 
> Service changes, upgrades, panel swaps......
> 
> Obviously, that panel won't have to be changed for years, but I hope I'm not the person doing it.
> 
> 
> I won't dispute that it looks good, but there simply is no good reason to twist the EGCs like that.
> 
> 
> Besides that, good job! :thumbsup:


 
It looks to me that only 2 grounds at a time are twisted together. Likely the same 2 ground wires that come from the same RX connector. If I were doing a panel change, I wouldn't see any need to untwist the ground wires.

Probably takes him 5 seconds a pair to twist them. a dozen pairs?

I don't do it, but 60 seconds of 'wasted' time? I can afford that.

I do a lot of pools, and some hot tubs. Did a hot tub for a lady, and I spent a couple of extra minutes making my PVC look really neat (perfect offsets, etc). She was so 'impressed' I got several jobs from her. 

Those extra 5 minutes cost next to nothing. Advertizing to get 2 jobs would have cost more.


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## cdnelectrician

Yes neatness pays off...I would rather stay a few extra minutes that I'm not getting paid for to make a job look neat than throw it in and be out by 3PM. On the twisting of the grounds thing....totally unnecessary, just my opinion.


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## MDShunk

My business sense says that a good installation is a combination of neatness and speed. If the installation is ugly, it's wrong. If the installation took too long, it's wrong. If it's reasonably neat and it got done in a reasonable amount of time, it's perfect. More often than not, these "glass front" type panels took way longer than the installer will ever admit to. Admittedly, in an environment where make-work rules and other similar featherbed practices are normal, everything probably will be ultra-neat. Those of use who compete at a different level need to find a happy medium.


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## 480sparky

heel600 said:


> It looks to me that only 2 grounds at a time are twisted together. Likely the same 2 ground wires that come from the same RX connector. If I were doing a panel change, I wouldn't see any need to untwist the ground wires.
> 
> Probably takes him 5 seconds a pair to twist them. a dozen pairs?
> 
> I don't do it, but 60 seconds of 'wasted' time? I can afford that.
> 
> I do a lot of pools, and some hot tubs. Did a hot tub for a lady, and I spent a couple of extra minutes making my PVC look really neat (perfect offsets, etc). She was so 'impressed' I got several jobs from her.
> 
> Those extra 5 minutes cost next to nothing. Advertizing to get 2 jobs would have cost more.


Did she care about how your grounds were made up, or whether they were twisted together? Seriously, how many HOs actually see the insides of our panels? 

"60 seconds" of wasted time is just that.... wasted time. Any you don't make money on resi by counting dollars, you make money in resi counting seconds.

I don't mind making them neat, but there's an extreme here that just isn't worth the time. Would you spend another 10 minutes making sure all your recep boxes are within 1/64th of an inch in height? Or taking all the twists out of the NM that's run through the holes in the studs? I know some guys who will run all their 14s into one side of the panel, and all the 12s on the other. Why? I don't know, he's on third, and I don't give a darn.

I recall a builder who would drill the holes for his electrician. He would walk around to each stud with a tape measure, making a mark 20" AFF on the face edge of the studs. Then he would go around again with his square and transfer the mark to the side of the stud. Then... he would go back around with his tape measure and mark the center of each stud along the line that's at 20". _Then_, and only then, would he start drill holes. His rational: If Sparky had an absolute straight shot through the studs, he'd use less wire, and therefore be cheaper. Fine, Sparky uses $1 less NM, and Bob the Builder spends a day marking the studs.

It's like spending time waxing the car you're going to drive in the demolition derby this Saturday night. The laws of diminishing returns will come into play here.


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## heel600

*I did that too*

When I built my mother's house, I marked very stud at 24" above bottom plate. That was where the holes were drilled. Everything I did was picture perfect.

Yes it was my mother's house. No I never did that before or since. But it only took an hour or so to have a helper go around with a 24" piece of wood and a pencil.

In the homes I wire, just by force of habit, all holes are within an inch or two of the same height. Look neat.

Ok I'm rambling....

If he wires every panel that way, and does on average of one panel every week or two, I'm sure it takes him only a minute or two longer than an 'average' job would.

Will the customer ever see inside the panel? sometimes.

I guess if you're wiring for a big time builder, the chance of the customer seeing in the panel, or even wanting you to come back to upgrade anything is slim.

If you're doing a service upgrade for a homeowner, and they are around and see your work, and how neat and 'professional' it looks (assuming the rest of the job is the same), you'll have a customer for life.

One more way to look at it:

You say it's a wasted 15 minutes that you're paying for. At $160 / hr, that's only $40 cost. What if you charged $40 / job (large jobs only) more? So instead of a service for $2200, you charged, $2240?


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## MDShunk

Wasted time is wasted time. If the person who is wasting time is an employee, he is stealing from his boss. Simple as that.


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## JohnJ0906

heel600 said:


> I do a lot of pools, and some hot tubs. Did a hot tub for a lady, and I spent a couple of extra minutes making my PVC look really neat (perfect offsets, etc). She was so 'impressed' I got several jobs from her.
> 
> Those extra 5 minutes cost next to nothing. Advertizing to get 2 jobs would have cost more.


You are comparing "apples to oranges" Very few HOs will see the insides of their electrical panel, but they will see that PVC every day.

Neatness in exposed work vs. excessive neatness in concealed work - 2 different things, IMO.


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## frenchelectrican

sherman said:


> We should have the option to buy a glass cover for our panels. It would expose the real hacks.





480sparky said:


> I've heard some places in Europe that's SOP..... plexi covers.


 
Unforetally yes it is true in few European countries do have plexiglass cover on it I know Germany do have it on some load centre and here in France not too often and UK kinda spotty as well { I will let UK sparky answer that question }

Most useally are mounted on the DIN rail with plastic box { very few use steel box like what you useally have in North American verison is }

As soon I get done working on one resdentail I will try to get a photo what French resdential breaker box look like. 

Merci,Marc


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## randomkiller

JohnJ0906 said:


> You are comparing "apples to oranges" Very few HOs will see the insides of their electrical panel, but they will see that PVC every day.
> 
> Neatness in exposed work vs. excessive neatness in concealed work - 2 different things, IMO.


I agree, I like to be neat but there is no way I'm twisting grounds.


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## CFL

MDShunk said:


> Wasted time is wasted time. If the person who is wasting time is an employee, he is stealing from his boss. Simple as that.


This isn't exactly true. If the boss gives you X amount of time to complete the job and you hustle in order to do a neater job then that's the opposite of stealing, that's giving. I have always been a neat freak and I am consistently faster in completing my jobs than my coworkers. I choose not to cut corners and I have to pay for it (physically).

Personally, I hate it when people twist their wires together. It does look cool, but I have had to untwist them many times and those wires will never look good again.


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## r_merc

I'm bucking the trend here I like the twisted wires. OK Mark I agree with you as well.... So let me put it this way.... If I'm trimming out the panel. I get my cordless and twist. If my employees are trimming out then it's straight in.

Rick


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## ralph

If you own the company, then you do the panel your way. To each his own.


r_merc said:


> I'm bucking the trend here I like the twisted wires. OK Mark I agree with you as well.... So let me put it this way.... If I'm trimming out the panel. I get my cordless and twist. If my employees are trimming out then it's straight in.
> 
> Rick


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## TOOL_5150

As far as grounds go, I would just rather leave them in a j-box [if present] and just run 1 properly sized EGC to the panel.

~Matt


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## JohnJ0906

Of course, no one has mentioned the neatest way of all.... just snip off those pesky bare wires and recycle them. :laughing:


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## Yillis

Some panels we're going right now:





































That's just the electrical room in one House:


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## MDShunk

Yillis.... that's a Canadian installation, no?


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## NolaTigaBait

wow, what size service is that?


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## Yillis

Canadian yes, 800 amps.


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## Speedy Petey

That dude must work for AIG.


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## NolaTigaBait

Yillis said:


> Canadian yes, 800 amps.


awesome, what did you charge for that?


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## 480sparky

Yillis said:


> Canadian yes, 800 amps.


What's that in American amps? :laughing:


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## Yillis

with the current exchange rate : 652 amps


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## Yillis

NolaTigaBait said:


> awesome, what did you charge for that?



Not done yet :thumbsup:


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## NolaTigaBait

i bet you could retire off that one...:thumbsup:


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## B4T

*WAIT*...... there is exposed romex.... that is hack work according to some on this forum :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

really nice job!!!!


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## MDShunk

NolaTigaBait said:


> i bet you could retire off that one...:thumbsup:


Only if.


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## Yillis

It's not as neat as I would've wanted. Ventilation guy isn't very good at knowing what he needs.


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## steelersman

480sparky said:


> I may have posted this before, but here's mine:


where the hell are the main conductors?


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## steelersman

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


where the hell are the main conductors?


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## MDShunk

steelersman said:


> where the hell are the main conductors?


That's one of those high-tech installations that run on wireless electricity.


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## steelersman

MDShunk said:


> That's one of those high-tech installations that run on wireless electricity.


oh, of course. Silly me, I thought that they just wanted to take the picture before the main conductors were installed and made it all ugly.


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## 480sparky

steelersman said:


> where the hell are the main conductors?


 
It's a cordless main panel. :laughing:

Actually, they hadn't been installed yet when the pix was taken.


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## steelersman

480sparky said:


> It's a cordless main panel. :laughing:
> 
> Actually, they hadn't been installed yet when the pix was taken.


No s#$t Sherlock. Ya think? :laughing:


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## william1978

Speedy Petey said:


> That dude must work for AIG.


 The said thing is you are probly right.


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## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> The said thing is you are probly right.


Not any more.... it's AIU now.


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## william1978

480sparky said:


> Not any more.... it's AIU now.


I'm a little confused what is AIU?


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## 480sparky

william1978 said:


> I'm a little confused what is AIU?


They used to be known as AIG.


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## jgarner

What code cycle are you on? Don't see but 2 - AFCI


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## 480sparky

jgarner said:


> What code cycle are you on? Don't see but 2 - AFCI


Twas wired to the '05.


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## captkirk

Peter D said:


> To quote from Marc Shunk, if I saw you making a panel that neat, I would say: "That looks great. Now get back to work."
> 
> Sorry to rain on your parade, but that level of neatness is absurd. What purpose does twisting the grounds together serve, other than making the next guy curse like a drunken sailor when he has to deal with it?


 That is a great comment. and from a business owners perspective very true, especially in these trying times and guys cutting each others throats. I wouldnt mind if it was a really slow week of the guy doing it can do it in a reasonable amount of time but many times I see guys spend a whole day on cutting in a panel. That dosent make for a good profit margin. I personally would reserve that kind of work for a VIP customer or if I am already charging them ALOT more money to do so.


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## mikeg_05

Yillis said:


> Some panels we're going right now:
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just the electrical room in one House:



Thats excellent work man:thumbup:


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## blindside

what colour is your earth cable?? is it unsheathed in the states?? here it is green/yellow sheathing....
BS


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## TOOL_5150

blindside said:


> what colour is your earth cable?? is it unsheathed in the states?? here it is green/yellow sheathing....
> BS


Bare copper or green. The only time we use green/yellow here, which isnt always either, is for isolated ground circuits.

~Matt


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## LGLS

CFL said:


> This isn't exactly true. If the boss gives you X amount of time to complete the job and you hustle in order to do a neater job then that's the opposite of stealing, that's giving. I have always been a neat freak and I am consistently faster in completing my jobs than my coworkers. I choose not to cut corners and I have to pay for it (physically).
> 
> Personally, I hate it when people twist their wires together. It does look cool, but I have had to untwist them many times and those wires will never look good again.


For some in business, everything has to boil down to a dollar figure. Time = money. The need for imperfect and falliable human beings with a conciousness notwithstanding...


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## 480sparky

TOOL_5150 said:


> Bare copper or green. The only time we use green/yellow here, which isnt always either, is for isolated ground circuits.
> 
> ~Matt


I see a lot of green w/yellow on light fi.......err.... _luminaires_.


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## luby104

TOOL_5150 said:


> Heres a few panels I did recently, working on 2 more currently. With a little extra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matt


Beautiful job TOOL. Can you please tell

me if is a 200 amp panel and the size of the conduit and feeders?

Is it a sub panel or is it a main panel with a remote main breaker?

I apologize in advance for being a dumb***. Wait a minute. Even if it had a remote

main, it would still need a main in the panel right? I don't know. I give up.....good thing I'm

not active in the trade any more.


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## davis9

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!



While it looks good and a bit of overkill, if this is the Main panel I see NO MBJ installed.

Tom:blink:


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## captkirk

3rdGen said:


> Very nice makeup....But twisting the grounds makes for tough removal (Panel change etc.) Otherwise *LOOKS GREAT!*


I agree. I mean I can totally appreciate the neatness and I think it looks great, but I think the only time I would approve of this is if its kind of slow and the worker doesn't mind staying on his time to make it look this good.
Two years ago I would have had a different opinion on this but now that I have my own business its another story.


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## luby104

I'm thinking it's probably just a sub panel since there is no main breaker.

And doesn't need a MBJ.

Am I even close???:001_huh:


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## davis9

luby104 said:


> I'm thinking it's probably just a sub panel since there is no main breaker.
> 
> And doesn't need a MBJ.
> 
> Am I even close???:001_huh:


That big breaker in the middle suggests it is a Main panel. I see no green screw or strap installed to bond the nuetral bus to the can.

Tom:no:


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## BDB

davis9 said:


> That big breaker in the middle suggests it is a Main panel. I see no green screw or strap installed to bond the nuetral bus to the can.
> 
> Tom:no:


The first picture, which is the one I think they are asking about, does not have a "big breaker in the middle"


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## davis9

Yes it does.


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## LGLS

We call that the top...


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## BDB

davis9 said:


> Yes it does.


You are correct, I was talking about this one. :whistling2:


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## davis9

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> We call that the top...



Left to Right it is in the Middle.

Tom:laughing:


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## davis9

BDB said:


> You are correct, I was talking about this one. :whistling2:



Ah yes there would be no Main in that panel:laughing:

Tom


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## muck

480sparky said:


> Personally, I would have 180'd the panel so the lugs would be on the bottom. Save some copper.


I'm curious - How can you have 16 SP breakers and only 10 neutrals?


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## user4818

muck said:


> I'm curious - How can you have 16 SP breakers and only 10 neutrals?



Multiwire branch circuits aka sharing a neutral. Yes, it is code legal.


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## luby104

14/3 nm or 12/3 nm, can't the neutral be shared?

Maybe? Heck, I don't know:blink:


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## user4818

luby104 said:


> 14/3 nm or 12/3 nm, can't the neutral be shared?
> 
> Maybe? Heck, I don't know:blink:



Yes, of course it can be shared. Don't forget the common disconnect for MWBCs under the 2008 code however. :whistling2:


----------



## muck

Peter D said:


> Multiwire branch circuits aka sharing a neutral. Yes, it is code legal.


Then wouldn't you have to have 2 P breakers? Or at least handle ties?


----------



## luby104

Thanks. But what is MWBC stand for?


----------



## muck

luby104 said:


> Thanks. But what is MWBC stand for?


Multi Wire Branch Circuit


----------



## user4818

muck said:


> Then wouldn't you have to have 2 P breakers? Or at least handle ties?


Under the 2008 code they are now required for all circuits, whereas before they were only required for circuits that terminated on a common yoke. Also, TOOL5150 is in California and they are not under the 2008 NEC as far as I know.


----------



## luby104

Mouse with brown coat? Man with brain concussion?


----------



## user4818

luby104 said:


> Mouse with brown coat? Man with brain concussion?



Marc was a bitter child....


----------



## steelersman

Correct me if I'm wrong. But this is a 2 pole panel. Therefore you can only share 2 circuits per neutral, not 3 such as in 3 phase panels, therefore how could you have 10 neutrals with 16 circuits? Think about it. It doesn't work. The numbers aren't jiving. There must be 3 circuits being shared on one of the neutrals.


----------



## luby104

Sorry about that Peter.

Straight answers are not always the norm.

So if I run a 12/3 to the kitchen and I put a recept

on each (just example), do I have to use a 2pole breaker per 2008 code?


----------



## steelersman

luby104 said:


> Sorry about that Peter.
> 
> Straight answers are not always the norm.
> 
> So if I run a 12/3 to the kitchen and I put a recept
> 
> on each (just example), do I have to use a 2pole breaker per 2008 code?


yes. Or use handle tie.


----------



## steelersman

steelersman said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. But this is a 2 pole panel. Therefore you can only share 2 circuits per neutral, not 3 such as in 3 phase panels, therefore how could you have 10 neutrals with 16 circuits? Think about it. It doesn't work. The numbers aren't jiving. There must be 3 circuits being shared on one of the neutrals.


Let's say that 10 of the circuits are sharing neutrals. That would be 5 neutrals between the 10 circuits. Now the other remaining 6 circuits each have their own neutral. That's 11 neutrals, not 10 so how is this done? I think 3 of the circuits are sharing a neutral somewhere. Not cool.


----------



## luby104

Ok. Got it.

is it correct to say that panel cannot be a main service panel

because there is no main breaker?


----------



## Mac Hine

luby104 said:


> Ok. Got it.
> 
> is it correct to say that panel cannot be a main service panel
> 
> because there is no main breaker?


Forgive me for not reading the entire thread but a panel does not necessarily need a main breaker to be the main distribution panel. You can have to 6 breakers without a main.


----------



## luby104

steelersman said:


> Let's say that 10 of the circuits are sharing neutrals. That would be 5 neutrals between the 10 circuits. Now the other remaining 6 circuits each have their own neutral. That's 11 neutrals, not 10 so how is this done? I think 3 of the circuits are sharing a neutral somewhere. Not cool.



I think I see a blue wire coming in the top right.

Connected to the 2 pole?


----------



## william1978

Mac Hine said:


> You can have to 6 breakers without a main.


 Sometimes you can have 7.


----------



## luby104

Mac Hine said:


> Forgive me for not reading the entire thread but a panel does not necessarily need a main breaker to be the main distribution panel. You can have to 6 breakers without a main.


So If I have a main breaker outside my house, my panel is 25ft. away, in the basement,

do I need a main in the panel??


----------



## william1978

luby104 said:


> So If I have a main breaker outside my house, my panel is 25ft. away, in the basement,
> 
> do I need a main in the panel??


 No.......


----------



## steelersman

luby104 said:


> I think I see a blue wire coming in the top right.
> 
> Connected to the 2 pole?


yes. And if that 2 pole circuit has a neutral then I think that would explain the whole 10 neutrals for 16 single pole circuits and 1 two pole circuit. It would actually be 9 neutrals for 16 single pole circuits and the 10th neutral for the 2 pole.


----------



## muck

steelersman said:


> yes. And if that 2 pole circuit has a neutral then I think that would explain the whole 10 neutrals for 16 single pole circuits and 1 two pole circuit. It would actually be 9 neutrals for 16 single pole circuits and the 10th neutral for the 2 pole.


But wouldn't you still need handle ties on the single poles or 2 poles?


----------



## luby104

Peter D said:


> Under the 2008 code they are now required for all circuits, whereas before they were only required for circuits that terminated on a common yoke. Also, TOOL5150 is in California and they are not under the 2008 NEC as far as I know.


What is tool5150?


----------



## steelersman

muck said:


> But wouldn't you still need handle ties on the single poles or 2 poles?


yes but that wasn't my point. That goes without saying I think. The bigger issue for me was the # of neutrals vs. the # of circuits, but it's all figured out now. I guess I was jumping the gun


----------



## user4818

luby104 said:


> What is tool5150?


The screen name of the member whose panel pictures are in question.


----------



## JayWater




----------



## BDB

Two comments:

1. After seeing some of the pictures on here, I am glad I do NO Resi work.

2. Someone needs to figure out how to resize a picture:blink:


----------



## steelersman

BDB said:


> Two comments:
> 
> 1. After seeing some of the pictures on here, I am glad I do NO Resi work.
> 
> 2. Someone needs to figure out how to resize a picture:blink:


yep. You said it. Would definitely be nice to see a regular sized pic of this panel turned J-box.


----------



## jfwfmt

Isn't a neutral bar outside the breaker cabinet only allowed for "column" panelboards?
303.3(B)(4)

Oh, it might be used just for grounding wires?

By the way, in latest Firefox, right click on pix choose view for smaller size.


----------



## steelersman

jfwfmt said:


> Isn't a neutral bar outside the breaker cabinet only allowed for "column" panelboards?
> 303.3(B)(4)
> 
> Oh, it might be used just for grounding wires?
> 
> By the way, in latest Firefox, right click on pix choose view for smaller size.


I didn't see a neutral bar outside the panel enclosure, but then again I don't have a Jumbotron monitor to allow me to see the whole pic without killing my wrist in order to navigate throughout the pic.


----------



## bdashley

*panels*

Hey guys
How is it going. Here in canada we work a little diffrent under the cec. The panels you have pitured here look great.Neat work is the best to follow up on at a later date.Nothing worse than adding a new circuit to a "spider web"
panel job.Had one short out one time beacuse of someones sloppy work.have to say in canada were not allowed to pass our brach circuits in the main breaker area though.Under that inner cover is just for main feeders and grounding/bonding circuit only.Wish we had the fredom to do what you guys do. Would have helped in many occasions i can think of !
anyway thats my 2 cents
See ya guys


----------



## vinster888

duh!


----------



## TOOL_5150

muck said:


> I'm curious - How can you have 16 SP breakers and only 10 neutrals?


MWBC - I was there for a service upgrade and moving the subpanel to the inside of the garage, I wired it back up the way I found it.



davis9 said:


> Ah yes there would be no Main in that panel:laughing:
> 
> Tom


No main here - its a sub, The main is outside.



luby104 said:


> Beautiful job TOOL. Can you please tell
> me if is a 200 amp panel and the size of the conduit and feeders?
> Is it a sub panel or is it a main panel with a remote main breaker?
> I apologize in advance for being a dumb***. Wait a minute. Even if it had a remote
> main, it would still need a main in the panel right? I don't know. I give up.....good thing I'm
> not active in the trade any more.


100 amp, subpanel, No main needed in this panel, though I offer to install a main for an extra charge if the customer wants a "main" disconnect in the house rather then outside.





Peter D said:


> Multiwire branch circuits aka sharing a neutral. Yes, it is code legal.


Exactly.



luby104 said:


> 14/3 nm or 12/3 nm, can't the neutral be shared?
> 
> Maybe? Heck, I don't know:blink:


Yes, Im sure that is the case here - There were a few conduits going to another j-box behind the washer and dryer, that I did not mess with, so I couldnt tell you if it was all wired properly - thats not what I was there to do.


~Matt


----------



## TOOL_5150

luby104 said:


> What is tool5150?


I am the one and only TOOL_5150


~Matt


----------



## electrictim510

As a service electrician I always tell my "ride alongs" (new to service guys coming from construction). The only thing that separates us from the rest of the electricians (who typically messed up the job we are fixing), in the customers eyes, is how good our stuff looks, and how we present it. Good job to those who take time to make their work look nice.


----------



## NevadaBoy

Panels look nice. Don't dig the twisted grounds though.

TOOL5150, I like your subpanel. That's usually how I try to make mine look. Sweeping the wire to the terminals, not hard 90s. But I also don't use solid wire.


----------



## CraneTech

i need to get some pics of the panels on our cranes. im testing a lockheed martin crane tomorrow so maybe i can get some snapshots


----------



## william1978

CraneTech said:


> i need to get some pics of the panels on our cranes. im testing a lockheed martin crane tomorrow so maybe i can get some snapshots


 Please do I know I would like to see them, but please resize them.:thumbup:


----------



## oldman

NolaTigaBait said:


> i bet you could retire off that one...:thumbsup:


retire? i'd be shocked if they make a profit after everything is said and done....

those jobs are notorious for chewing up money and spitting out contractors...


----------



## CraneTech

Sorry forgot my camera these are off my phone
*First* pic is the Bridge panel. Where main power comes in and it houses the VFD for the bridge. *Second* pic is some of the festoon wiring. *Third* pic is the Hoist and Trolley Panel. Houses both VFD's for the hoist and trolley. Larger one is for the Hoist and smaller for the trolley.

Ignore the festoon wiring on the sides as they are only in for testing and we leave plenty of slack in them so when it gets in the field there is wiring to play with.


----------



## curranelectric

Panel I finished a week ago. New location. Turned old main into a 50 amp sub panel.


----------



## TOOL_5150

curranelectric said:


> Panel I finished a week ago. New location. Turned old main into a 50 amp sub panel.


wheres the rest of the pics?


~Matt


----------



## blindside

hey guys
how are you all?
here is a small switchboard im working on at the moment. 
we are doing a total re-furb of an old office. it was a builders office, now its been sold to a music company who are putting in music studios, a classroom for evening college music classes and downstairs a music shop.
this is the state of the switchboard when i first opened it up. the builder wants us to use as many old circuits as possible. same story with the phones and data cabling (which we are also doing)...
cheers,
BSIDE


----------



## walkerj

I must say, I love the red, white and blue buss arrangement:thumbsup:


----------



## frenchelectrican

walkerj said:


> I must say, I love the red, white and blue buss arrangement:thumbsup:


 Yeah., the same with UK system on old colour code as well with modern colour code it will really throw ya off track if not pay attetion { I got used to see UK system from time to time but far more famuair with French system and North America system } 

I did worte a posting with colour code in France here the link http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/what-color-neutral-6817/ My reply is on second and third page so you can see what I mean.,,

Merci,Marc


----------



## blindside

walkerj said:


> I must say, I love the red, white and blue buss arrangement:thumbsup:


really?? don't you have that?
each colour is a different phase. do you just work off one phase?
plus the earth and neutral bars on the side of the panel....
bside


----------



## MDShunk

Blindside... what brand is that panel, and would you call that a pretty typical presentation for Australia?


----------



## user4818

MDShunk said:


> Blindside... what brand is that panel, and would you call that a pretty typical presentation for Australia?



I thought is was a Square D, but if it was, it surely would have an obvious Sq D emblem on it somewhere.

Looks like that use that deadly nonmetallic cable in Australia, and at 240/415 no less. :thumbsup:


----------



## Joshua

*New to this forum, work I have done...*

Hey all, I am new to this forum...I am in the process of working on my BSEE and then going on to my MSEE...that is after being a residential wireman in Colorado and working some commercial. Though I no longer work as an electrician, I am working on my Electrical Engineering degree and I love to look at electrical work and see what is going on out there! Don't worry, I am not a "trunk slammer," I just like looking at everyone's work and staying a bit in the "real world" of this work...it's easy to forget in the midst of my classes!

Here is a panel I did for my parents house, the first one (left) with the main is the original to the house, the second (on the right) is for their basement and future workshop outlets. Both are 30/40 Homeline panels, the second is subbed via a 125 A breaker (I could have gone a full 200 A through if I remember right, with the proper breaker, but it would have been overkill). Thoughts?


----------



## blindside

MDShunk said:


> Blindside... what brand is that panel, and would you call that a pretty typical presentation for Australia?



not sure what brand it is. its a good 20 years old.
i wouldn't say the presentation is typical, its quite shoddy! that looks like there have been plenty of sparkies over the years adding and taking stuff out of it! hahah. i hope you don't think we are all cowboys down here!

its quite difficult to become an electrician and you cant do ANY electrical work unless licensed or an apprentice under the supervision of a licensed electrician. no 'handyman' work on electrical!


----------



## RePhase277

blindside said:


> really?? don't you have that?
> each colour is a different phase. do you just work off one phase?
> plus the earth and neutral bars on the side of the panel....
> bside


Yes we have different phases, but we use slightly different colors depending on the voltage. For three phase 120/208 V, the colors are black, red, blue, with a white neutral. For 277/480 V, the colors are brown, orange, yellow, with a gray neutral.

The comment about the red, white, and blue was probably in reference to our national colors.


----------



## wvwirenut

Joshua said:


> Hey all, I am new to this forum...I am in the process of working on my BSEE and then going on to my MSEE...that is after being a residential wireman in Colorado and working some commercial. Though I no longer work as an electrician, I am working on my Electrical Engineering degree and I love to look at electrical work and see what is going on out there! Don't worry, I am not a "trunk slammer," I just like looking at everyone's work and staying a bit in the "real world" of this work...it's easy to forget in the midst of my classes!
> 
> Here is a panel I did for my parents house, the first one (left) with the main is the original to the house, the second (on the right) is for their basement and future workshop outlets. Both are 30/40 Homeline panels, the second is subbed via a 125 A breaker (I could have gone a full 200 A through if I remember right, with the proper breaker, but it would have been overkill). Thoughts?


Nice Looking Work. As an EE and an electrician myself, don't completley give up being an electrician. Sometimes it's good to be on both "sides."


----------



## 220/221

I am a production worker. I don't waste time with all the right angle wire bends.










I probably could have squeezed a few more circuits into this one.










I only use the top brands like FRE and Zinsco.











This one I didn't bother replacing. It had a few vent holes so I thought it'd make a nice Jbox.











I likes the sideways panel so I thought I'd try it again.


----------



## TOOL_5150

lol good 1 220 

~Matt


----------



## steelersman

here is a pic of one of the many air handler/blended chilled water control panels that I wire in the Pentagon:


----------



## 480sparky

steelersman said:


> here is a pic of one of the many air handler/blended chilled water control panels that I wire in the Pentagon:


 
Complete with the Handyman's Secret Weapon! :laughing:


----------



## steelersman

480sparky said:


> Complete with the Handyman's Secret Weapon! :laughing:


that was actually not mine, and it wasn't used by me for anything FYI.


----------



## steelersman

here's a couple more:


----------



## steelersman




----------



## steelersman




----------



## drsparky

Looks good.


----------



## electricalperson

heres a panel that ive done 

i dont have many pics of my work




























http://www.professional-power-tool-...ploads/2008/08/milwaukee-band-saw-300x300.jpg


----------



## steelersman

thanks. We don't run the conduit or mount the panels. We just come in and mount the various control devices and pull the wire and wire everything up. Although we are electricians, wejust don't have the electrical contract for this stuff, just the controls.


----------



## user4818

electricalperson said:


> heres a panel that ive done
> 
> i dont have many pics of my work


Where are the "after" pics when it all melted down?


----------



## 220/221

Here is some of my LV handywork.














I do commercial work too.












No meter, no problem. I can jumper that for ya.












Another side job.












I also build decks.


----------



## electricalperson

Peter D said:


> Where are the "after" pics when it all melted down?


 not online yet


----------



## drsparky

Lately all the jobs I have been working the customer has declared, *PHOTOGRAPHY PROHIBITED.*


----------



## 220/221

> Where are the "after" pics when it all melted down?


----------



## electricalperson

220/221 said:


>


 isnt that the job you used handcleaner on and caught hell on another forum


----------



## 220/221

That's it.










It hasn't blown up again.......yet.


----------



## user4818

220/221 said:


> It hasn't blown up again.......yet.


Give it time...it will if _you_ installed it. :jester:


----------



## 220/221

Given enough time, any installation will blow up.

I doubt that the hand cleaner will accelerate the process.


----------



## Mr. Sparkle

drsparky said:


> Lately all the jobs I have been working the customer has declared, *PHOTOGRAPHY PROHIBITED.*


Say it's for Insurance purposes.


----------



## Greg

drsparky said:


> Lately all the jobs I have been working the customer has declared, *PHOTOGRAPHY PROHIBITED.*


I was at a house last Thursday to fix a receptacle and the outdoor panel was a jewel. :laughing: I grabbed my camera and the HO got real defensive and then I noticed why, in his back yard were what we call corn rows, 6' tall pot plants.

I put the camera away in the interest of safety.


----------



## lbwireman

*B yooteeful*



heel600 said:


> I think his panel looks great! Probably took him 15 minutes longer than if the wires were thrown in helter skelter.


Absolutely, and worth it. After 35+ years in the trade, this says to me (and to most inspectors) he takes pride in his work and _probably_ was just as conscientious/meticulous with the parts of the job we can't see (calcs, code stuff, etc.)



heel600 said:


> Twisting the grounds? takes an extra minute, looks good, what's the problem?


On this issue, I have to side with the other posters who have raised the issue of service work on this panel "later on down the road".



heel600 said:


> How often do you rip wires out of a panel?


Daily. As the years (and I) have moved along, I've gone from commercial new construction to resi and commercial service work. That beautiful Cu braid is now 15 yrs old, tarnished, work hardened, grungy and covered with spider webs and I've got to unravel it to perform whatever I'm there to diagnose or change. I'm not lovin'the guy that braided it.



heel600 said:


> Only thing I do differently is I leave all conductors that go to the breakers all the same length, about 4" longer than the panel. I'm a big believer in keeping enough wire to move breakers around.


For the reasons stated above, THANKYEW!!:thumbsup:


----------



## captkirk

480sparky said:


> I may have posted this before, but here's mine:


 Is that two 12 two's in one romex connector? I got busted for that many times.


----------



## 480sparky

captkirk said:


> Is that two 12 two's in one romex connector? I got busted for that many times.


Didja ever ask for a Code reference?


----------



## TOOL_5150

Hey 480, why did you space the gfci/afci [cant tell] apart? I am going to guess that they are AFCIs. Do they really produce heat like people have said in the past? Or, was there really no reason at all.

~Matt


----------



## 480sparky

TOOL_5150 said:


> Hey 480, why did you space the gfci/afci [cant tell] apart? I am going to guess that they are AFCIs. Do they really produce heat like people have said in the past? Or, was there really no reason at all.
> 
> ~Matt


 
It just happened that way. No special reason.


----------



## Larry Fine

luby104 said:


> Is it a sub panel or is it a main panel with a remote main breaker?


Either way, it's should be wired as a sub-panel.



> _Even if it had a remote main, it would still need a main in the panel right?_


Not if it's in the same building/structure.


----------



## Larry Fine

captkirk said:


> Two years ago I would have had a different opinion on this but now that I have my own business its another story.


"Welcome, Neo, to the real world."


----------



## Larry Fine

Here's a pair of panels I did in a 7800+ sq.ft house:










It really takes no longer to do a panel neatly enough.


----------



## starsailor803

Here's the panel in my house. I haven't looked in there in a while. I usually do a much neater job. I guess when it's your own house you're not worried about impressing anyone.


----------



## markstg

steelersman said:


> here's a couple more:





steelersman said:


>


 Nice Panel work.....How come the wires aren't labeled....and no drawing pocket in door for the panel drawing to figure out the unlabeled wires...


----------



## steelersman

They are labeled with sharpie on the jacket as soon as they enter the cabinet. And we all have a point schedule to go off of if we want to know what were what anyway.


----------



## captkirk

480sparky said:


> Didja ever ask for a Code reference?


 110.3 B but then again I dont have the specs in front of me


----------



## JvH87

some photos of panels Dutch style 









Sorry for crappy quality, took em with my phone


----------



## frenchelectrican

I will speak for JvH87 behalf for conductor colours 

The Netrual is bleu

Phase conductors Brown , Black and Grey 

The earth is Green with yellow stripes

As I mention above that is modern colour codes but for old colours codes it can get ya there is so many diffrent ways with it.

Merci,Marc


----------



## JvH87

frenchelectrican said:


> I will speak for JvH87 behalf for conductor colours
> 
> The Netrual is bleu
> 
> Phase conductors Brown , Black and Grey
> 
> The earth is Green with yellow stripes
> 
> As I mention above that is modern colour codes but for old colours codes it can get ya there is so many diffrent ways with it.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Woops forgot to mention the colors! Marc is right on. And the old colors over here in the Netherlands were

Green = Phase 
Red = Neutral
Grey = Earth

I can post more pic's of European style panels if you guys are intrested :whistling2:

Jelle


----------



## RePhase277

JvH87 said:


> Woops forgot to mention the colors! Marc is right on. And the old colors over here in the Netherlands were
> 
> Green = Phase
> Red = Neutral
> Grey = Earth
> 
> I can post more pic's of European style panels if you guys are intrested :whistling2:
> 
> Jelle


So strange that anyone would use green as a phase conductor. It just seems natural that green would be ground. You silly Dutch and your happy mushrooms...


----------



## JvH87

InPhase277 said:


> So strange that anyone would use green as a phase conductor. It just seems natural that green would be ground. You silly Dutch and your happy mushrooms...


Happy mushrooms are prohibited since......6 months or so


----------



## frenchelectrican

InPhase277.,

The green phase conductor in our old French color codes was common also and I think you may recalled that I did wrote it in the forum if you can't find it let me know I will type up the color listing. ( both old and multi modern colors )

That one reason why we were trained to always test before you work on the electrical system due there is about half dozen diffrent color format.

Merci,Marc


----------



## drsparky

InPhase277 said:


> So strange that anyone would use green as a phase conductor. It just seems natural that green would be ground. You silly Dutch and your happy mushrooms...


Everyone knows that green conductor should be the right signal and stop. The white conductor is ground. You silly fixed wiring guys and your swill beer.


----------



## TOOL_5150

JvH87 said:


> I can post more pic's of European style panels if you guys are intrested :whistling2:
> 
> Jelle


I am. :thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## RePhase277

drsparky said:


> Everyone knows that green conductor should be the right signal and stop. The white conductor is ground. You silly fixed wiring guys and your swill beer.


Which end of the building does the stop and signal lights go on? And do they make a "Wide Right Turn" placard in that size?


----------



## BIGRED

Here is a panel that I found in a house in Broomall, Delaware County, PA. The house was going for about $400,000.00. Very sloppy, butcher work!


----------



## crazyboy

BIGRED said:


> Here is a panel that I found in a house in Broomall, Delaware County, PA. The house was going for about $400,000.00. Very sloppy, butcher work!


Something is wrong there, the low voltage wiring is secured better than the line voltage wires. Isn't that backwards :laughing:


----------



## RePhase277

And an aluminum GEC. Don't see that often. In fact, I may have only ever seen it one other time.


----------



## lectro88

*strange color codes*

Speaking of wire colors. About 16 years ago I worked at a chemical plant named Sandoz. (now closed like many other plants) One of their many products, Thera Flu. Their other specialty was blue jean dye. Anyway I had to wire a new extraction unit, power and E stop controls Line voltage was 575v. standard brown, orange, yellow. This machine was made in Germany or Russia, I forget. want to say Germany. Start removing covers and there is just a rats nest of wires everywhere, lots of orange wires. Guess what color THEIR equipment ground was.... ORANGE  
Talk about keeping one on their toes.


----------



## JvH87

Some more more European style panels, not all residential thou.


Dimmer Panel


Main Feeder 250A


Burned Down MCB (Plumbers Fault )


Replacement

Still got some more if wanted. Also from some 380kV Station, or is there another thread for photos of transformers etc. ?


----------



## frenchelectrican

Jezz., 
That really bring back memory I have alot of fun with the Daized fuse box.

To other guy/ladies the daized fuse is simair to the North America plug fuse but the rating do high as 63 amp and yes they do come in couple differnet size as well.

The Yellow, Red , Black is one of common European phase colours and the other one is used is Yellow , Red , Bleu the black is used for netrual conductor.

That one reason why we are always be on the toe when you come few diffrent phase conductor colours it can snag ya if not carefull with it.

Merci,Marc


----------



## JvH87

frenchelectrican said:


> Jezz.,
> That really bring back memory I have alot of fun with the Daized fuse box.
> 
> To other guy/ladies the daized fuse is simair to the North America plug fuse but the rating do high as 63 amp and yes they do come in couple differnet size as well.
> 
> The Yellow, Red , Black is one of common European phase colours and the other one is used is Yellow , Red , Bleu the black is used for netrual conductor.
> 
> That one reason why we are always be on the toe when you come few diffrent phase conductor colours it can snag ya if not carefull with it.
> 
> Merci,Marc


The yellow red blue phase coloring is also outdated.

Old
Red = L1 
Yellow = L2
Blue = L3

New
Brown = L1
Black = L2
Grey = L3

I still code the phases with Red Yellow and Blue tape since I find it a more convenient and clear way to code the phases


----------



## ralpha494

I don't recall ever seeing any pipes in any European panel pictures. Is everything cable? If there are any, what are the sizes? I see the metric equivelants in the code book but only see cables.


----------



## JvH87

ralpha494 said:


> I don't recall ever seeing any pipes in any European panel pictures. Is everything cable? If there are any, what are the sizes? I see the metric equivelants in the code book but only see cables.


Only small residential panels are done with pipe, not steel conduit thou everything here is PVC. The regular sizes for piping in houses is 5/8" and 3/4" 
I'll can get some photos of small residential panels if youre intrested


----------



## RePhase277

Why do Europeans keep changing phase colors every few years? Personally, I can't imagine it is really a safety issue due to equipment being imported from other European countries. Any real electrician should be able to read a diagram and know what foreign color goes with what domestic color.

No, I think it is yet another way letting a quiet sort of socialist control in. Grow a pair and set your own colors and stick with them. It seems more dangerous to have four different color schemes depending on the age of the building you are in.

In the U.S. and Canada we have had the same phase, neutral, and ground colors for almost 100 years, with a couple of minor changes along the way.


----------



## frenchelectrican

ralpha494 said:


> I don't recall ever seeing any pipes in any European panel pictures. Is everything cable? If there are any, what are the sizes? I see the metric equivelants in the code book but only see cables.


 Ralpha:

If you want metric sized conductor let me know I can make a chart in case you are wonding about it.



InPhase277 said:


> Why do Europeans keep changing phase colors every few years? Personally, I can't imagine it is really a safety issue due to equipment being imported from other European countries. Any real electrician should be able to read a diagram and know what foreign color goes with what domestic color.
> 
> No, I think it is yet another way letting a quiet sort of socialist control in. Grow a pair and set your own colors and stick with them. It seems more dangerous to have four different color schemes depending on the age of the building you are in.
> 
> In the U.S. and Canada we have had the same phase, neutral, and ground colors for almost 100 years, with a couple of minor changes along the way.


 Inphase:

Right now what we the European electricians are doing now with the CE codes we are getting in standardized what you North Americian guys been doing for long time and what more instead having deal over half dozen diffrent colour format we try to get down to at least two the most unless the CE have diffrent idea with this set up and it was in effect not too long ago about couple years back due the safety issue there were too many reports of damaged equiment and shock hazard issue came up over the years.

And I did save one link in one forum that have International colour codes that have about 4 pages long it just about cover all the areas you are looking for.

If you want that link let me know I will foward it to you.

Merci,Marc


----------



## JvH87

InPhase277 said:


> Why do Europeans keep changing phase colors every few years? Personally, I can't imagine it is really a safety issue due to equipment being imported from other European countries. Any real electrician should be able to read a diagram and know what foreign color goes with what domestic color.
> 
> No, I think it is yet another way letting a quiet sort of socialist control in. Grow a pair and set your own colors and stick with them. It seems more dangerous to have four different color schemes depending on the age of the building you are in.
> 
> In the U.S. and Canada we have had the same phase, neutral, and ground colors for almost 100 years, with a couple of minor changes along the way.


Every few years? The colors changed once in 1970 from Green, Red, Grey to Brown, Blue, Green/Yellow.
And the Red, Yellow, Blue phase coding was only used in panels for the incoming feeder. And that changed also in the 1970 to Brown, Black, Grey. So we dont change our wire colores every few years for the fun of it


----------



## RePhase277

JvH87 said:


> Every few years? The colors changed once in 1970 from Green, Red, Grey to Brown, Blue, Green/Yellow.
> And the Red, Yellow, Blue phase coding was only used in panels for the incoming feeder. And that changed also in the 1970 to Brown, Black, Grey. So we dont change our wire colores every few years for the fun of it


OK, every few decades:laughing: I'm just saying that if your country sets a color standard (and I'm all for sovereignty and national pride), then it isn't really a problem if you import some equipment from a country with different colors. A qualified electrician should be able to look at L1, L2, L3, N, and E and match it up to his L1, L2, L3, N, and E.

Marc, the French Electrician posted a list of colors changes once that was bewildering. There were I think six different color standards. Now, an old neutral color is now a phase color, and one of the older neutral colors is another phase color, etc. That is fine for guys whose memory is fresh with it. But in 20 years, with a new generation of sparkies who will be servicing old installs, well, they'll be shocking themselves and burning down buildings left and right.:laughing:

You should put you foot down and say "These are the colors we use in the Netherlands, and I dare some punk from the EU to say something about it".:thumbup:


----------



## RePhase277

frenchelectrican said:


> If you want that link let me know I will foward it to you.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Please do. I'm always interested in foreign installations.


----------



## JvH87

InPhase277 said:


> OK, every few decades:laughing: I'm just saying that if your country sets a color standard (and I'm all for sovereignty and national pride), then it isn't really a problem if you import some equipment from a country with different colors. A qualified electrician should be able to look at L1, L2, L3, N, and E and match it up to his L1, L2, L3, N, and E.
> 
> Marc, the French Electrician posted a list of colors changes once that was bewildering. There were I think six different color standards. Now, an old neutral color is now a phase color, and one of the older neutral colors is another phase color, etc. That is fine for guys whose memory is fresh with it. But in 20 years, with a new generation of sparkies who will be servicing old installs, well, they'll be shocking themselves and burning down buildings left and right.:laughing:
> 
> You should put you foot down and say "These are the colors we use in the Netherlands, and I dare some punk from the EU to say something about it".:thumbup:


I fully agree with you on this but since im an electrician/engineer and not a politician there is not much I can do about it :jester:
But indeed a good sparky doenst need the coloring to identify the phases


----------



## frenchelectrican

Ok Inphase here the link 

http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...?ubb=showflat&Number=148731&page=1#Post148731

That have infomation on international color codes 

Merci,Marc


----------



## frenchelectrican

I think it will be wise idea I get the metric conductor size chart listed here due we get European peoples and North America peoples looking for conductor size conversion so here it is 

*AWG = mm²*

18 = 0.75
17 = 1.0
16 = 1.5
14 = 2.5
12 = 4.0
10 = 6.0
8 = 10
6 = 16
4 = 25
3 = 30
2 = 35
1 = 50
1/0 = 55
2/0 = 70
3/0 = 95
4/0 = 120
300 = 150
350 = 185
500 = 240
600 = 300

If there any other size if you need to know let me know I will post it more later on the time.

Merci,Marc


----------



## JvH87

frenchelectrican said:


> I think it will be wise idea I get the metric conductor size chart listed here due we get European peoples and North America peoples looking for conductor size conversion so here it is
> 
> ..................
> 
> Merci,Marc


I found this conversion table for AWG to metric

http://www.simetric.co.uk/siwire_elect.htm


----------



## RePhase277

JvH87 said:


> I found this conversion table for AWG to metric
> 
> http://www.simetric.co.uk/siwire_elect.htm


I think the metric wire sizing is the only thing that I don't intuitively feel. I grew up with both the inch-pound system and the metric system, so I don't have a problem understanding metric measure. Except the wire sizes. I always have to gauge them against AWG to get an idea of what is what.


----------



## JvH87

InPhase277 said:


> I think the metric wire sizing is the only thing that I don't intuitively feel. I grew up with both the inch-pound system and the metric system, so I don't have a problem understanding metric measure. Except the wire sizes. I always have to gauge them against AWG to get an idea of what is what.


Same for me but the other way around


----------



## frenchelectrican

InPhase277 said:


> I think the metric wire sizing is the only thing that I don't intuitively feel. I grew up with both the inch-pound system and the metric system, so I don't have a problem understanding metric measure. Except the wire sizes. I always have to gauge them against AWG to get an idea of what is what.





JvH87 said:


> Same for me but the other way around


 
That the same thing with me every time I go to France or to USA depending on what I am doing and the last time it nearly screw me up a little after I stay in France for over 5 months and back in USA it almost throw me off track a min but got back on track and now what I been doing is listed both AWG and mm² sizes 

Merci,Marc 

{ I will plan to go back to France later this fall }


----------



## JvH87

frenchelectrican said:


> That the same thing with me every time I go to France or to USA depending on what I am doing and the last time it nearly screw me up a little after I stay in France for over 5 months and back in USA it almost throw me off track a min but got back on track and now what I been doing is listed both AWG and mm² sizes
> 
> Merci,Marc
> 
> { I will plan to go back to France later this fall }


Little off topic:

Marc you as a foreigner would know I guess, I maybe want to get a job as an Power Engineer in the US. Is it hard to find a job in the US as a foreigner, with the Visa and all?

Thanks,

Jelle

PS Sorry for threadjacking


----------



## Joe Tedesco

*Table 8 from the 2008 NEC*



frenchelectrican said:


> I think it will be wise idea I get the metric conductor size chart listed here due we get European peoples and North America peoples looking for conductor size conversion so here it is
> 
> *AWG = mm²*
> 
> 18 = 0.75
> 17 = 1.0
> 16 = 1.5
> 14 = 2.5
> 12 = 4.0
> 10 = 6.0
> 8 = 10
> 6 = 16
> 4 = 25
> 3 = 30
> 2 = 35
> 1 = 50
> 1/0 = 55
> 2/0 = 70
> 3/0 = 95
> 4/0 = 120
> 300 = 150
> 350 = 185
> 500 = 240
> 600 = 300
> 
> If there any other size if you need to know let me know I will post it more later on the time.
> 
> Merci,Marc


Thank you, here's the Table 8 from the 2008 NEC, see the sizes.


----------



## JTMEYER

This probably isn't really the type of panel your looking for but what the heck. I built this one, one of our other guys wired it. They are all done the same so you get the idea.


----------



## frenchelectrican

JvH87 said:


> Little off topic:
> 
> Marc you as a foreigner would know I guess, I maybe want to get a job as an Power Engineer in the US. Is it hard to find a job in the US as a foreigner, with the Visa and all?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jelle
> 
> PS Sorry for threadjacking


 Jelle .,

Hard to say how many postion are open for Power Engineer in USA side but hang on tight I have a feeling but not confirmed the construction will pick up the speed but it will not be the same as before the " mini crash" if you get my drift 

But you can check with some larger companines they may have something on the list that you are instering for it

As far for Visa useage I am not sure how tight they are working on the Visa useage now due I am dual centenship so I don't have the issue with it.

Merci,Marc 

Sorry for off topic for a min but now back on the Electrician Talk channel


----------



## Teaspoon

electricalperson said:


> this trade needs more people who take pride in there work and treat the electrical trade as a skilled craft and not as a typical construction job. i cant stand the hurry and get it done attitude i hear people say. i would rather spend an extra hour to make something look like a professional as been there and not someone trying to hurry and go to the next one


 

I agree 100% We should take enough time to do the job right.
And do neat workmanship type work. I know we all are on a time frame,
to get work completed. Yes time is money but a few extra minutes spent on a job is not going to break us.


----------



## scruffy

there's definitly some guys who take pride in their work and i wish everyone was like that and then's there's the hack and slash butcher every servicemans nightmares.


----------



## eddy current

*Twisting ground wires*

Can't do it, in Canada.:no:
Every wire must have it's own lug unless the lug is rated for more than one wire.

How many ground wires you can twist under one lug as per the NEC? Just jam as many in as possible?


----------



## MDShunk

eddy current said:


> How many ground wires you can twist under one lug as per the NEC? Just jam as many in as possible?


Typically, only a maximum of two. Where you start to run into trouble is when the newer (replacement) panels have ground bar holes starting at a #14 rating, and many of the older cables had a #16 "reduced ground'. In the past, I've twisted about three together and put them in a ground bar hole, to make the equivalent of maybe 2 #12's. Today, I wire nut several of them to a #12 pigtail and land that on the ground bar.


----------



## eddy current

MDShunk said:


> Today, I wire nut several of them to a #12 pigtail and land that on the ground bar.


Diddo


----------



## bonjovi

electricalperson said:


> this trade needs more people who take pride in there work and treat the electrical trade as a skilled craft and not as a typical construction job. i cant stand the hurry and get it done attitude i hear people say. i would rather spend an extra hour to make something look like a professional as been there and not someone trying to hurry and go to the next one


here here thats my thoughts 
to many -no i would go as far as saying 95% of all people i work with have this that will do attitude even when you can see its a mess it might pass or it might be within regs but nobody cares anymore 
i might be old school but my jobs look neet and electricians who look at my work when its done no its been done by a professional 
bring back old school


----------



## kornbln

MDShunk said:


> Typically, only a maximum of two. Where you start to run into trouble is when the newer (replacement) panels have ground bar holes starting at a #14 rating, and many of the older cables had a #16 "reduced ground'. In the past, I've twisted about three together and put them in a ground bar hole, to make the equivalent of maybe 2 #12's. Today, I wire nut several of them to a #12 pigtail and land that on the ground bar.


 
Not Buchanan crimps? :001_huh:


----------



## steelersman

Those crimps are no where near as good a connection as twisting them together under a wirenut.


----------



## kornbln

steelersman said:


> Those crimps are no where near as good a connection as twisting them together under a wirenut.


You are required to twist them when using a crimp and a crimp makes a heck of a secure connection. Seems like a good time to use one to me.


----------



## steelersman

Still not as good.


----------



## kornbln

steelersman said:


> Still not as good.


Why?


----------



## drsparky

MDShunk said:


> Typically, only a maximum of two.  Where you start to run into trouble is when the newer (replacement) panels have ground bar holes starting at a #14 rating, and many of the older cables had a #16 "reduced ground'. In the past, I've twisted about three together and put them in a ground bar hole, to make the equivalent of maybe 2 #12's. Today, I wire nut several of them to a #12 pigtail and land that on the ground bar.


Bah humbug Mr Shunk.:no: You must go by the listing. Some of the ground bar allow more than one wire, some do not. Due to the size it may be on the packaging and not the ground bar itself. Think of wire nuts, each manufacture lists how many and what size of wire can go in a nut, it is on the box, not one the nut.
Chuck


----------



## steelersman

kornbln said:


> Why?


Honestly, IMO twisting them is enough of a connection and doesn't really require a nut or crimp but a crimp can come loose if you wiggle the wires around a bit whereas a wirenut, you would have to untwist it on purpose to take it off. Just my opinion. But for the record, I use wirenuts. I don't just twist them and leave them naked. However, when I am making up the grounds in a residential receptacle, I use crimp sleeves instead of nuts cause it's a little faster.


----------



## BCSparkyGirl

You boys do some nice work is all I can say. When I get home I will throw some pics up and you can let me know if I measure up..........


----------



## MDShunk

drsparky said:


> Bah humbug Mr Shunk.:no: You must go by the listing. Some of the ground bar allow more than one wire, some do not.


Yeah, no sh!t, Sherlock. That's why I said "typically", because the typical ground bar does allow a maximum of two. The a-typical ground bar only allows one.


----------



## drsparky

MDShunk said:


> Yeah, no sh!t, Sherlock. That's why I said "typically", because the typical ground bar does allow a maximum of two. The a-typical ground bar only allows one.


That's me. :detective:


----------



## Boneshaker

Boy, I've noticed some people on this site don't like to be questioned.


----------



## kornbln

steelersman said:


> Honestly, IMO twisting them is enough of a connection and doesn't really require a nut or crimp but a crimp can come loose if you wiggle the wires around a bit whereas a wirenut, you would have to untwist it on purpose to take it off. Just my opinion. But for the record, I use wirenuts. I don't just twist them and leave them naked. However, when I am making up the grounds in a residential receptacle, I use crimp sleeves instead of nuts cause it's a little faster.


Come loose? Are you using the 4 point tool or linemans pliers?


----------



## 480sparky

Properly crimped with the proper tool,










and they won't let go.


----------



## steelersman

kornbln said:


> Come loose? Are you using the 4 point tool or linemans pliers?


Well, I must admit I've never even seen the tool or used it for crimping sleeves, but I use ***** or linemans and I don't actually crimp it on the wires but rather crimp the excess sleeve so that it squeezes the wires together and then I twist them. I know, I know, I'm a hack, but hey like I said they aren't going to come undone, and in all reality, they don't even need the crimp or a wirenut if twisted well enough.


----------



## kornbln

steelersman said:


> Well, I must admit I've never even seen the tool or used it for crimping sleeves, but I use ***** or linemans and I don't actually crimp it on the wires but rather crimp the excess sleeve so that it squeezes the wires together and then I twist them. I know, I know, I'm a hack, but hey like I said they aren't going to come undone, and in all reality, they don't even need the crimp or a wirenut if twisted well enough.


I've undone steel crimps that were indented with linemans pliers and the copper pigtail underneath was indented and weakened to the point where it snapped right off after a few bends back and forth. The four point tool used with copper sleeves provides a superior crimp.


----------



## MDShunk

kornbln said:


> I've undone steel crimps that were indented with linemans pliers and the copper pigtail underneath was indented and weakened to the point where it snapped right off after a few bends back and forth. The four point tool used with copper sleeves provides a superior crimp.


There's really only two tools approved to crimp Buchanan crimp sleeves. Smashing them with an ordinary pair of lineman's is not included in that list.


----------



## kornbln

MDShunk said:


> There's really only two tools approved to crimp Buchanan crimp sleeves. Smashing them with an ordinary pair of lineman's is not included in that list.


What I meant was the crimping portion of certain linemans pliers.

Like these:


----------



## 480sparky

kornbln said:


> What I meant was the crimping portion of certain linemans pliers.
> 
> Like these:


Is that listed for crimping splice caps?


----------



## MDShunk

480sparky said:


> Is that listed for crimping splice caps?


Probably. Certain Ideal lineman pliers with the crimping section and the Buchanan 4-way crimper are called out on the box.


----------



## B4T

BCSparkyGirl said:


> You boys do some nice work is all I can say. When I get home I will throw some pics up and you can let me know if I measure up..........


A French Maid outfit and wearing a tool belt with work boots would be a nice place to start :whistling2:


----------



## shockme123

Yillis said:


> Some panels we're going right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just the electrical room in one House:


Holy crap! What a house! This isn't 24 Sussex Drive in Ottawa is it?

For anyone who doesn't know, it's where the prime minister's house is.


----------



## cguillas

No no, 24 Sussex is old and falling apart. Probably K & T, too.


----------



## Lythropus

480sparky said:


> Did she care about how your grounds were made up, or whether they were twisted together? Seriously, how many HOs actually see the insides of our panels?
> 
> "60 seconds" of wasted time is just that.... wasted time. Any you don't make money on resi by counting dollars, you make money in resi counting seconds.
> 
> I don't mind making them neat, but there's an extreme here that just isn't worth the time. Would you spend another 10 minutes making sure all your recep boxes are within 1/64th of an inch in height? Or taking all the twists out of the NM that's run through the holes in the studs? I know some guys who will run all their 14s into one side of the panel, and all the 12s on the other. Why? I don't know, he's on third, and I don't give a darn.
> 
> I recall a builder who would drill the holes for his electrician. He would walk around to each stud with a tape measure, making a mark 20" AFF on the face edge of the studs. Then he would go around again with his square and transfer the mark to the side of the stud. Then... he would go back around with his tape measure and mark the center of each stud along the line that's at 20". _Then_, and only then, would he start drill holes. His rational: If Sparky had an absolute straight shot through the studs, he'd use less wire, and therefore be cheaper. Fine, Sparky uses $1 less NM, and Bob the Builder spends a day marking the studs.
> 
> It's like spending time waxing the car you're going to drive in the demolition derby this Saturday night. The laws of diminishing returns will come into play here.


If your drill man knows how to drill, all of your holes will be extremely close to equal, within 1/4" or so. It only takes 1.5 to 2 hours to drill out an average home...

besides I like going back to a house I wired and know where the wire is exactley and being able to tell some idiot over the phone where it is saves me time...


----------



## Lythropus

steelersman said:


> Well, I must admit I've never even seen the tool or used it for crimping sleeves, but I use ***** or linemans and I don't actually crimp it on the wires but rather crimp the excess sleeve so that it squeezes the wires together and then I twist them. I know, I know, I'm a hack, but hey like I said they aren't going to come undone, and in all reality, they don't even need the crimp or a wirenut if twisted well enough.


 
Some counties here make us use the 4 sided crimping tool stated the crimp was designed to be used that way...


----------



## steelersman

Lythropus said:


> It only takes 1.5 to 2 hours to drill out an average home...


Damn you're slower than tree sap on a cold winter day!


----------



## 220/221

Hey, I have those :thumbup:











And......I can't believe anyone actually reads the information on a box of crimps :laughing:

Listing? We don't need no stinking listing.


----------



## ken5156

*Tags*

The romex tags are not UL listed!


----------



## steelersman

ken5156 said:


> The romex tags are not UL listed!


WTF are you talking about?!


----------



## JohnJ0906

ken5156 said:


> The romex tags are not UL listed!


There are 250 posts on this thread - you will have to be a little more specific in what you are referring to.

Welcome to the forum.


----------



## 480sparky

JohnJ0906 said:


> There are 250 posts on this thread - you will have to be a little more specific in what you are referring to.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.


I'll bet he means those little piece of NM sheath you put on the hot wires in a panel to label the circuit with.


----------



## user4818

I like how in Canada you can get romex (NMD90 or loomex) with a blue jacket to identify it as an AFCI circuit.


----------



## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> I like how in Canada you can get romex (NMD90 or loomex) with a blue jacket to identify it as an AFCI circuit.


 
C'mon Pete, you know what to do............


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> C'mon Pete, you know what to do............


Nah, that takes too much time and effort. When you only charge $10 an hour for labor there's not much left to identify your cables, you know?


----------



## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Nah, that takes too much time and effort. When you only charge $10 an hour for labor there's not much left to identify your cables, you know?


 
How about using these, then?










































​Oh, wait..... Never mind.
Hacks don't use staples. They just bend a 7-penny nail over.​


----------



## user4818

480sparky said:


> How about using these, then?


Wow. I'm impressed. You even found a picture of a New England staple. And no, I don't use nails either. I don't fasten cables at all. :no:


----------



## 480sparky

Peter D said:


> Wow. I'm impressed. You even found a picture of a New England staple. And no, I don't use nails either. I don't fasten cables at all. :no:


 
Uh, no.... I didn't 'find' a picture. I _faked_ it. :whistling2: Everybody and their uncle knows I have faked every photo in the world.


----------



## Lythropus

steelersman said:


> Damn you're slower than tree sap on a cold winter day!


haha, you can tell people who wire little 3000 sq.ft. spec homes right away...sorry should have said my average home...


----------



## steelersman

Damn it takes you 2 hours just to drill a 3000 sq. Ft. Home?


----------



## Joe Tedesco

*Work by Local Contractors!*

*Work by Local Contractors in IRAQ!*


----------



## william1978

steelersman said:


> Damn it takes you 2 hours just to drill a 3000 sq. Ft. Home?


 I don't do residential, but how long should it take to drill out a house of that size?


----------



## steelersman

Maybe an hour.


----------



## william1978

steelersman said:


> Maybe an hour.


 Really. Wow thats really moving.:thumbsup:


----------



## st0mps

what kind of work is that in iraq


----------



## Rudeboy

i like using zipties from time to time but damn...
nice subpanel.


----------



## Rudeboy

or... is that the main?


----------



## crazymurph

Joe Tedesco said:


> *Work by Local Contractors in IRAQ!*


 No wonder we have lost soldiers due to electrocution.


----------



## Midnitel

Check it out


----------



## Marker

I see a lot of great work, I enjoy looking at pictures of the super neat panels.

However, I definitely agree that it is a waste of time. 

Making up a panel *that* neat is no different than using a level on an underground PVC pipe run. Do you make sure that the trench floor is perfectly flat so the pipe run is perfectly straight? Why not do a neat job there too? In both cases the work is going to be buried.


----------



## user4818

Marker said:


> However, I definitely agree that it is a waste of time.


Here I was thinking I was the lone person preaching that doctrine. :laughing:


----------



## steelersman

Peter D said:


> Here I was thinking I was the lone person preaching that doctrine. :laughing:


Nope. I also agree that it is a waste of time. But I'm probably a little biased since I'd probably have a hell of a time trying to get one to look that neat. :laughing:


----------



## william1978

Midnitel said:


> Check it out


 Good looking panels.:thumbsup:


----------



## Marker

Someone should start a thread to post pictures of the cash saved by not making up super duper neat panels.


----------



## Midnitel

Job on right 2 tech 3.5 hours. Demo, board, panel, meter pan,pvc riser, grounding, bonding,labeled


----------



## user4818

steelersman said:


> But I'm probably a little biased since I'd probably have a hell of a time trying to get one to look that neat. :laughing:


Hahah...me too. I have a mental block against doing things that have no value and waste time.


----------



## forqnc

Marker said:


> I
> Making up a panel *that* neat is no different than using a level on an underground PVC pipe run. Do you make sure that the trench floor is perfectly flat so the pipe run is perfectly straight? Why not do a neat job there too? In both cases the work is going to be buried.


Using a level on an undeground pipe cannot be compared to inside of a panel. The pipe will possibly never see the light of day again, unless a repair or replacement is necessary. How many times is a panel opened back up to add a circuit, trace a fault etc
I try to do neat work within a resonable time.


----------



## Rudeboy

I think doing neat and clean work in general will help lead to more jobs in the future. General contractors do inspect work on their sites. When they see jobs well done they will remember the pipe and romex you ran, not to mention a panel that doesn't look like a rats nest. My panels aren't anything special but they look okay.


----------



## BCSparkyGirl

I personally like the neat panels. I can do a pretty darn good panel in a reasonable about of time. Nothing wore than getting called for service work and having to deal with someone elses rats nest.


----------



## B4T

Marker said:


> Someone should start a thread to post pictures of the cash saved by not making up super duper neat panels.


I think doing a really neat panel like that is a good thing :thumbsup:

It will be there for the next 20 - 40 years and (most) everyone who looks inside will be impressed.

I lost count at the amount of panels that look like a out of work car stereo installer did the job


----------



## NY ELECTRIC

here are some panels we just finished up


----------



## captkirk

Marker said:


> Someone should start a thread to post pictures of the cash saved by not making up super duper neat panels.


I do enjoy looking at those but I must agree, my panels are neat but some of those are just neurotic . I bet most of those guys dont work for themselves. And if one of my guys took that long to do a panel I would relegate him to outside work until he got the point. I square my wires off too but some of those look like they had a level put on them. I also think that alot of these guys just like standing in the same spot for a while. Hmm help the other guys hump wire or stand here for four hours cutting in a panel .....? Doing up a panel like that doesn't make one a better electrician it just means that you have more disposable time....And when your a two man shop time isn't always on your side...

NY Electricain.....nice panels but I personally hate the "comb over" with a passion. (Comb over is when you include all that extra wire before you land it on the breaker... ) And where I come from its always been Black, red, blue (not that it really matters)


----------



## captkirk

480sparky said:


> I may have posted this before, but here's mine:


 This panel IMO is a good compromise of neatness and realistic time frame. And also think the extra time it takes to put in the lables on the wires far outweighs the time spent lining up all the neutrals and grounds.....


----------



## TOOL_5150

captkirk said:


> This panel IMO is a good compromise of neatness and realistic time frame. And also think the extra time it takes to put in the lables on the wires far outweighs the time spent lining up all the neutrals and grounds.....


I sure can appreciate the labels inside the panel... I have gotten used to doing that as well.:thumbsup:

~Matt


----------



## Ima Hack

captkirk said:


> This panel IMO is a good compromise of neatness and realistic time frame. And also think the extra time it takes to put in the lables on the wires far outweighs the time spent lining up all the neutrals and grounds.....


I agree with this and your previous post, I think you hit it right on.

We're not wiring the space shuttle here..... At least I'm not.


----------



## nolabama

NY ELECTRIC why is the phase arrangement blue red black?


----------



## Kevin J

nolabama said:


> NY ELECTRIC why is the phase arrangement blue red black?


He took the pictures in a mirror.:laughing:


----------



## B4T

I would think the "comb over" with all that extra wire is a code violation.

I checked, but can only find 300.34, which is for over 600 volts and deals with bending radius


----------



## walkerj




----------



## TOOL_5150

Nice work, but why the wirenuts in the panel on a new installation?

~Matt


----------



## nolabama

I really don't have a problem with wire-nuts in a new panel. I bet walkerj is using that sawzall to cut his 500. That would drive me nuts.


----------



## cdnelectrician

walkerj said:


> View attachment 2338
> 
> 
> View attachment 2339
> 
> 
> View attachment 2340
> 
> 
> View attachment 2341


Are you allowed to use adjacent panels as raceways to another panel? (bottom picture) That would not be allowed here!


----------



## shockme123

steelersman said:


> here's a couple more:


I did this kind of stuff on my work term, and loved it! Too bad it takes a while to get into. It's very interesting.


----------



## user4818

Here's a panel I wired:


----------



## mikeg_05

Peter D said:


> Here's a panel I wired:


Man, scotchkote is really flammable.:jester:


----------



## user4818

mikeg_05 said:


> Man, scotchkote is really flammable.:jester:


:laughing:


----------



## electro916

captkirk said:


> I do enjoy looking at those but I must agree, my panels are neat but some of those are just neurotic . I square my wires off too but some of those look like they had a level put on them. I also think that alot of these guys just like standing in the same spot for a while. Hmm help the other guys hump wire or stand here for four hours cutting in a panel .....? Doing up a panel like that doesn't make one a better electrician it just means that you have more disposable time.


I agree with you, here is a picture of a change-out I did a few weeks ago, water leaked through the meterbase down the SEU and destroyed the main breaker and most of the branch breakers(over time). 

From the time I got on site and pulled the meter, to the time I got in the van to leave was 3hours, I could have taken longer and made the panel super neat, but this looks just as good and made more money coming in under the quote.


----------



## JohnJ0906

cdnelectrician said:


> Are you allowed to use adjacent panels as raceways to another panel? (bottom picture) That would not be allowed here!


Absolutely. 312.8


----------



## BIGRED

nolabama said:


> I really don't have a problem with wire-nuts in a new panel. I bet walkerj is using that sawzall to cut his 500. That would drive me nuts.


I don't have a problem with wire nuts either, I use them all of the time. Here is proof, Not!!


----------



## nolabama

^^^^
you cant use that panel for a pull box either.:laughing:


----------



## DipsyDoodleDandy

*Panels*

It's all subjective. What's better looks or safe installation? If your trying to impress yourself then looks I guess. Quit bending those damn wires at a 90 degree angle! Here is one of my latest installations. As you can see, I tried to put as many mains as possible off a 100 amp main. It took a while, but the proof is in the pudding. There are still 3 more meters off pic. Didn't bring fisheye lens. As you can see as well, I ran a couple 100 amp disconnects off of some 60 amp mains to get more power.


----------



## nolabama

That looks like the apartment meter arangement that brian john fixed.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

I wish we had basements like that. Those are easily fixed, just takes alot of time.


----------



## DipsyDoodleDandy

*height*

Those were 6' 5" Ceilings. Good for short people. Did you notice the GFCI Rec. we had tapped of the main line side of service on 14 gauge wire. I was particularly proud of that.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> Those were 6' 5" Ceilings. Good for short people. Did you notice the GFCI Rec. we had tapped of the main line side of service on 14 gauge wire. I was particularly proud of that.


Yeah, looks awesome:thumbsup:. That would be the first picture I showed potential customers.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

JohnJ0906 said:


> Absolutely. 312.8


I thought it was ok as long as there is space to do it. Damn Canadians.


----------



## nolabama

NolaTigaBait said:


> I wish we had basements like that. Those are easily fixed, just takes alot of time.


It would make an uptown rewire way easier. They put those services in the strangest locations. My fave is French Quarter under the bathroom sink panels.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

nolabama said:


> It would make an uptown rewire way easier. They put those services in the strangest locations. My fave is French Quarter under the bathroom sink panels.


Yeah French Quarter is crazy. We did one a while back. Of course you can't have any panels showing from the street. We had to bust up the concrete and redo the underground. Entergy wanted 3.5 inch pvc and they said just slide it onto the old cast iron junk. Then they wanted a huge jbox, like a 36x36, thne you go into the meter and a fused disconnect. YOu had to use a fused one to get the interuppting rating above 68,000. Plus, parking is a bitch .


----------



## user4818

NolaTigaBait said:


> Yeah French Quarter is crazy. We did one a while back. Of course you can't have any panels showing from the street. We had to bust up the concrete and redo the underground. Entergy wanted 3.5 inch pvc and they said just slide it onto the old cast iron junk. Then they wanted a huge jbox, like a 36x36, thne you go into the meter and a fused disconnect. YOu had to use a fused one to get the interuppting rating above 68,000. Plus, parking is a bitch .


:sleep1:


----------



## Bob Badger

DipsyDoodleDandy said:


> As you can see as well, I ran a couple 100 amp disconnects off of some 60 amp mains to get more power.


Is that anything like getting more blank checks from the bank so you can spend more money?

What is you're calculated load?


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Bob Badger said:


> Is that anything like getting more blank checks from the bank so you can spend more money?
> 
> What is you're calculated load?


I think he's joking.


----------



## Bob Badger

NolaTigaBait said:


> I think he's joking.




Yeah I knew that. :blush::blush:


----------



## walkerj

TOOL_5150 said:


> Nice work, but why the wirenuts in the panel on a new installation?
> 
> ~Matt


There were several GP circuits on this job so I caught them in a few different home run conduits so that is why there are wire nuts.





nolabama said:


> I really don't have a problem with wire-nuts in a new panel. I bet walkerj is using that sawzall to cut his 500. That would drive me nuts.


 
What's wrong with using the sawzall to cut the wire:confused1:


----------



## nolabama

walkerj said:


> What's wrong with using the sawzall to cut the wire:confused1:


Nothing, It would just drive me nuts. I don't know why. Just would.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

nolabama said:


> Nothing, It would just drive me nuts. I don't know why. Just would.


I've done it as a last resort and It is a pain.


----------



## nolabama

NolaTigaBait said:


> I've done it as a last resort and It is a pain.


Don't get me wrong, I have used a hacksaw to cut SE cable before.


----------



## walkerj

:sleep1:

Well from now on I am using my teeth


----------



## NolaTigaBait

walkerj said:


> :sleep1:
> 
> Well from now on I am using my teeth


What are you talking about? He was just saying it was a real pain, that's all.


----------



## Grounded-B

Yillis said:


> Some panels we're going right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks nice. Only one thing I'll pick on - that last panel on the right would have been perfect, if it was just 10cm lower.
> 
> Steve
> LU 494


----------



## Grounded-B

steelersman said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. But this is a 2 pole panel. Therefore you can only share 2 circuits per neutral, not 3 such as in 3 phase panels, therefore how could you have 10 neutrals with 16 circuits? Think about it. It doesn't work. The numbers aren't jiving. There must be 3 circuits being shared on one of the neutrals.


6 3-wire circuits (6 neutrals 12 SP breakers)
4 2 wire circuits (4 neutrals 4 SP breakers )
...................... = 10 neutrals 16 SP breakers


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Grounded-B said:


> Yillis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some panels we're going right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks nice. Only one thing I'll pick on - that last panel on the right would have been perfect, if it was just 10cm lower.
> 
> Steve
> LU 494
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good looking work:thumbsup: But I'll agree, the last 5 panels should have been straight all the way accross all 5. But it looks great anyway
Click to expand...


----------



## tates1882

This isn't in a house but a small ti space and its a romex panel.


----------



## TOOL_5150

What is a romex panel?

~Matt


----------



## jza

Good job OP. I'd want the panel in my house to look like that.


----------



## Grounded-B

tates1882 said:


> This isn't in a house but a small ti space and its a romex panel.


>> What's a "ti" space ???:001_huh:

Steve


----------



## jza

electricnewf said:


> Holy crap! What a house! This isn't 24 Sussex Drive in Ottawa is it?
> 
> For anyone who doesn't know, it's where the prime minister's house is.


LOL, good luck getting a camera let alone a picture inside the PM's house.


----------



## tates1882

TOOL_5150 said:


> What is a romex panel?
> 
> ~Matt


 
slang. just refering to the wiring method used.


----------



## tates1882

Grounded-B said:


> >> What's a "ti" space ???:001_huh:
> 
> Steve


 
Tenant improvement space. Usually a small office space in commerical complex.


----------



## TOOL_5150

tates1882 said:


> slang. just refering to the wiring method used.


Alright. Well, it looks like you took pride in your work, while not takign too much time.

~Matt


----------



## tates1882

Here is some from the house I'm waiting for inspection on.


----------



## frenchelectrican

The only items I will crite to ya is you do not have more nail plate on bottom plate below the load centre.

Otherwise it look ok.

For moi I will throw more 2by's on horztonal above the load centre to keep it at right depth.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## wirenut71

OP panel looks great. I've done panels like that and come back a couple of years later to do some work. Taking the cover off to see that every hack and jack leg had been there after me to mess it all up.


----------



## Braden Electric

tates1882 said:


> Here is some from the house I'm waiting for inspection on.


Love the grounds.


----------



## NolaTigaBait

Braden Electric said:


> Love the grounds.


:sleep1:....waaaaaaaaaaasssssssttteeee o' time:blink:


----------



## BBQ

Grounded-B said:


> Looks nice. Only one thing I'll pick on - that last panel on the right would have been perfect, if it was just 10cm lower.
> 
> Steve
> LU 494


Steve this thread had been dead for 2 years.


----------



## electricmanscott

tates1882 said:


> Here is some from the house I'm waiting for inspection on.


Fail??.....


----------



## TOOL_5150

BBQ said:


> Steve this thread had been dead for 2 years.


LOL didnt even notice that. Kids dont know how to work a forum....


~Matt


----------



## tates1882

electricmanscott said:


> Fail??.....


No its schduled for friday morning.


----------



## electricmanscott

tates1882 said:


> No its schduled for friday morning.


I'm interested in finding out the result.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

electricmanscott said:


> I'm interested in finding out the result.


 
Me too, that would fail here.


----------



## HARRY304E

mcclary's electrical said:


> Me too, that would fail here.


 The inspector will miss it


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

BBQ said:


> Steve this thread had been dead for 2 years.


 



IMO, if a new guy was not a member at thte time of the thread being opened, he has every right upon his membership to open and reply to any thread he would like, as long as his post are useful. Grounded B gave us more picturese for this thread. 

Thanks B:thumbsup:


----------



## tates1882

mcclary's electrical said:


> Me too, that would fail here.


 Why would it fail?? I'll take a pic of the rough in tag.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

tates1882 said:


> Why would it fail?? I'll take a pic of the rough in tag.


 


Too many NM's in one connector


----------



## electricmanscott

mcclary's electrical said:


> Too many NM's in one connector


They look like male adapters.


----------



## tates1882

mcclary's electrical said:


> Too many NM's in one connector





















I would have thought you would have noticed the lack of Afci protection on several branch circuits. Idaho only requires the sleeping ares to be Afci protected.


----------



## tates1882

mcclary's electrical said:


> Me too, that would fail here.


 Here you go..


----------



## BBQ

mcclary's electrical said:


> IMO, if a new guy was not a member at thte time of the thread being opened, he has every right upon his membership to open and reply to any thread he would like, as long as his post are useful. Grounded B gave us more picturese for this thread.
> 
> Thanks B:thumbsup:


Speedy explains it well here.

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f13/one-worst-violations-i-have-ever-seen-10164/index2/#post355807


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

tates1882 said:


> Here you go..


 

That's one alot of inspectors would let slide. Especially if they're older. Or he could be a real dousche and wait until the final to get you:thumbup:


----------



## Teaspoon




----------



## Shockdoc

I hate twisted ground wires although I have done it in the way past. PIA during a panel change.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Shockdoc said:


> I hate twisted ground wires although I have done it in the way past. PIA during a panel change.












better than this panel


----------



## Shockdoc

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 5317
> 
> 
> 
> better than this panel


Bottomless?:huh: I'd say some serious water issues as well as a slob Homeowner/handyman looking wiring.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Shockdoc said:


> Bottomless?:huh: I'd say some serious water issues as well as a slob Homeowner/handyman looking wiring.


 bottom

On a farm, bad roof, no cover, panel rotten with no bottom


----------



## Shockdoc

mcclary's electrical said:


> bottom
> 
> On a farm, bad roof, no cover, panel rotten with no bottom


 That would be par for old farmwork, seen plenty of that out here in my early days, in fact even did some of that.


----------



## miller_elex

mcclary's electrical said:


> Too many NM's in one connector


Gray-locks are rated for two romexes.


----------



## Southeast Power

electricalperson said:


> this trade needs more people who take pride in there work and treat the electrical trade as a skilled craft and not as a typical construction job. i cant stand the hurry and get it done attitude i hear people say. i would rather spend an extra hour to make something look like a professional as been there and not someone trying to hurry and go to the next one


 Dont start that crap!!

The next thing you know, they will want OT, paid healthcare and a decent retirement plan.

Oh wait a minute.............







.


----------



## Abcanfield

*Twisted groundings*

Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


----------



## StarLo

Abcanfield said:


> Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


Are you allowed to land 3 wires under one lug in that panel?


----------



## Abcanfield

*Twisted groundings*

Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


----------



## electricmanscott

Abcanfield said:


> Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


If the terminal is rated to accept those three conductors, and very few are, why not just stick them in and tighten the screw. It would be pretty silly to think that twisting them would be faster than doing nothing to them.


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Abcanfield said:


> Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


 
What panels are you using that allow 3 wires under one lug?


----------



## Shockdoc

StarLo said:


> Are you allowed to land 3 wires under one lug in that panel?


Only #12 & 14 grounds.


----------



## frenchelectrican

As long the panel did listed the numbers of conductors at the termail stripbar I know the North Americian verison allow up to 3 12 or 14 awg conductors but European verison is limited to 2 or 1 depending on what brand that is used but for any netrual conductor no stay single per hole.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## B_a_c _k_s_t_a_y

http://www.electriciantalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5436&stc=1&d=1295574124


----------



## miller_elex

Is that 4/0 Al URD in that CT can? Looks tiny in the picture!


----------



## cdnelectrician

Abcanfield said:


> Twisting grounds actually speeds the process of stripping in a panel. Ex., twenty four #14 bares twisted in groups of three allows you to land them under eight spaces instead of 24 spaces. this also makes it more managable as well as neater. I'm no speed demon, but by not having to land under those remaining 16 ground lugs more than makes up for the time spent twisting and neatly grouping.


I hate it when people twist grounds all the way back to the connector. It SUCKS when you have to service a panel. Sure it takes less time, but if you get yourself into the habit of doing it a certain way you will be just as fast as someone with a drill.

First you get good, then you get fast.


----------



## prosnowsk8er

Heres one panel i just did as a 4th year in a skid.


----------



## 480sparky

I have yet to understand the need to take the conductor _past _the terminal, then double back to it.


----------



## sarness

480sparky said:


> I have yet to understand the need to take the conductor past the terminal, then double back to it.


I'be been doing it on recent panels, just the neutrals though, slack if they install a AFCI down the road, my 2c.


----------



## 480sparky

sarness said:


> I'be been doing it on recent panels, just the neutrals though, slack if they install a AFCI down the road, my 2c.


I understand there's people who do. My question is.... Why?


----------



## prosnowsk8er

If someone in the field needs to move that wire to a breaker located somewhere else in the panel you have the space, "service loop"


----------



## prosnowsk8er

Dont know why i posted this in the resi section, sorry


----------



## RePhase277

prosnowsk8er said:


> Heres one panel i just did as a 4th year in a skid.


While I'm with 480 on the reasoning behind the loops, I will say that is a damn fine panel!:thumbsup:


----------



## sarness

480sparky said:


> I understand there's people who do. My question is.... Why?


Not all neutral bars go the full length of breakers, hence if its a short neutral and you install an AFCI, you would have to extend it. I take the hot and 90 it into the breaker. I usually cut the neutral the same length then install it wherever it lines up.


----------



## 3xdad

Quote: "4th year in a skid."

What does this mean? Is this a classroom test panel?


----------



## 480sparky

3xdad said:


> Quote: "4th year in a skid."
> 
> What does this mean? Is this a classroom test panel?



I would think so.

24 circuits, and 2-3 go out through one pipe.... all the rest are in another. I hope they teach derating.


----------



## RePhase277

480sparky said:


> I would think so.
> 
> 24 circuits, and 2-3 go out through one pipe.... all the rest are in another. I hope they teach derating.


Might be a nipple. And every neutral drops out because they are all MWBCs


----------



## 480sparky

InPhase277 said:


> Might be a nipple. And every neutral drops out because they are all MWBCs



I see 21 AFCIs or GFCIs. Only the top three on the left aren't.


----------



## RePhase277

480sparky said:


> I see 21 AFCIs or GFCIs. Only the top three on the left aren't.


So they are. Didn't look close enough I guess.


----------



## TOOL_5150

prosnowsk8er said:


> Heres one panel i just did as a 4th year in a skid.


I see you get paid by the hour....

~Matt


----------



## prosnowsk8er

Lol, no not in class. Its a skid for a compressor station. This is the heat trace panel


----------



## prosnowsk8er

TOOL_5150 said:


> I see you get paid by the hour....
> 
> ~Matt


I sure do, but i'm also fast at doing panels, if i wanted to spend 2 hours on a panel it would look a million times better then this


----------



## jza

prosnowsk8er said:


> Heres one panel i just did as a 4th year in a skid.


Very nice work. But you forgot to feed the panel, in case you were wondering why it wasn't working.


----------



## 480sparky

jza said:


> Very nice work. But you forgot to feed the panel, in case you were wondering why it wasn't working.



No, it's fed.
























With 24 parallel feeds. :laughing:











,


----------



## prosnowsk8er

Lol!!! Only did the in town wiring, will be fed in the field from the main mcc skid


----------



## CheapCharlie

Not Resi, but here are some pictures of panels I've done. I work for the POCO here. What it looks like before and after. I have more if you're interested.


----------



## jaysmooth




----------



## oldschool

These Cutler Hammer Panels are ones that i have not seen before.
Notice the surge protectors built into the cover.


----------



## oldtimer

I have not seen these panels before. Great idea.

I don't want to be picky, but is it allowed to have more than one cable under the same staple? Here, that would not be accepted!

Otherwise it looks like a neat, clean, job. :thumbsup:


----------



## oldschool

oldtimer said:


> I have not seen these panels before. Great idea.
> 
> I don't want to be picky, but is it allowed to have more than one cable under the same staple? Here, that would not be accepted!
> 
> Otherwise it looks like a neat, clean, job. :thumbsup:


not a problem here, although i never staple more than 2


----------



## BBQ

oldtimer said:


> I have not seen these panels before. Great idea.
> 
> I don't want to be picky, but is it allowed to have more than one cable under the same staple? Here, that would not be accepted!
> 
> Otherwise it looks like a neat, clean, job. :thumbsup:


334.30 Securing and Supporting. Nonmetallic-sheathed
cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties,
straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so
as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m
(41⁄2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box
junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be
stapled on edge.

Sections of cable protected from physical damage by
raceway shall not be required to be secured within the
raceway.


----------



## Big John

oldtimer said:


> ...I don't want to be picky, but is it allowed to have more than one cable under the same staple? Here, that would not be accepted!...


 It depends entirely on the listing of the staple. Some staples are listed for multiple wires.

That's a piece of code I ignore. I'm that guy that uses SE cable staples to hold down five or six pieces of Romex. :clap:

-John


----------



## backstay

Did my panel fail? :laughing:


----------



## backstay

oldtimer said:


> I have not seen these panels before. Great idea.
> 
> I don't want to be picky, but is it allowed to have more than one cable under the same staple? Here, that would not be accepted!
> 
> Otherwise it looks like a neat, clean, job. :thumbsup:


http://handystraps.com/handystraps.html


----------



## ColoradoMaster3768

electricista said:


> ...
> 
> One point I will make. It has always been my interpretation that art. 200.7(C) requires the white conductor being used as a ungrounded conductor needs to be taped the entire length. Am I incorrect? I have always done that but thought it was a waste of tape.


"electricista," as for re-identifying the grounded conductor for the entire length of its exposure, I know that some AHJs interpret it that way. And, like you, I have done so in order to placate them, or to remove any doubt. But, the _Code _does not actually say that. It uses one of those nebulous phrases so prevalent in the _Code_: "…where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible." Nevertheless, the _Code_ is specific in that the means of identification shall encircle the insulation: "Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green."

By the way, one mistake that I have made consistently over the years was the use of gray tape for identifying a neutral. I thought that "natural gray" was _gray_—naturally. Little did I know that natural gray is actually a shade of beige. Like many others, my knowledge is limited, and my ignorance is vast—as a guy told me once: "I don't know, what I don't know."

(The following was retrieved February 22nd, 2011 from http://code.necplus.org/index.php?sso=0)

*2008 NEC, 200.7 *

*(C)* *Circuits of 50 Volts or More.* The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3). ROP ROC 
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green. ROC 


[_There seems to be some clarification of this in the 2011 NEC._]

*2011 NEC*

*200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.*
*Changed From 2008*
• 200.7: Combined requirements for identifying white colored conductors in cable assemblies used as ungrounded conductors to supply utilization equipment or in switch loops. Clarified that marking tape is permitted as a method to re-identify conductors with white colored insulation.

*(C)* *Circuits of 50 Volts or More.* The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) and (2). 
(1) If part of a cable assembly that has the insulation permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor by marking tape, painting, or other effective means at its termination and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray, or green. If used for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor with white or gray insulation or three continuous white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the outlet. 

[_The following is an extract from the 2011 Handbook._]

Where the wiring method is a cable assembly, such as Type AC, Type MC, or Type NM cables, 200.7(C)(1) allows a conductor with a white or gray colored insulation to be used as an ungrounded conductor. Examples of where this provision is used include water heaters, electric heat, motors, and switch loops. The insulation has to be re-identified to avoid confusing it with conductors having white or gray insulation that are grounded or neutral conductors at switch and outlet points and at other points in the wiring system where the conductors are accessible. In previous editions, the _Code_ permitted switch loops using a white insulated conductor to serve as an ungrounded conductor supplying the switch but not as the return ungrounded conductor to supply the lighting outlet. Prior to the 1999 _NEC_, re-identification of a white conductor used for this purpose was not required. However, electronic switching devices with small power supplies are available that can be installed at switch locations. These devices require a grounded conductor in order to power the internal components, and they help in clearly distinguishing a grounded conductor from ungrounded conductors, which aids in properly connecting such devices. Although in switch loops the conductor with white or gray insulation is re-identified at all accessible locations to indicate that it is being used as an ungrounded conductor, it is only permitted to be used to supply the switch and cannot be used as the switched ungrounded conductor at the controlled outlet. Exhibit 200.5 shows a switch location where the conductor with the white insulation has been re-identified at the termination to indicate that it is the ungrounded supply conductor run to the switch. 










​ 


*Exhibit 200.5 The re-identified conductor at a switch location, limited to use only as the ungrounded conductor that supplies the switch. *​ 

[_Sorry, but I was not able to get the image, which shows only about 2 to 3 inches of a re-identified grounded conductor for a switch leg, to post_.]


----------



## guest

backstay said:


> Did my panel fail? :laughing:


What happened there? Lightning hit? Primary contact? 

Got anymore pics of the carnage?


----------



## backstay

mxslick said:


> What happened there? Lightning hit? Primary contact?
> 
> Got anymore pics of the carnage?


Ok, here are a few. The old QO panels were flat on the back and this one almost started the ply on fire. It was a bad connection between a breaker and panel.


----------



## guest

Thanks for the follow-up pics. :thumbup:

There are those who say QO's are the god of panels and never fail..well...oops. 

What is the box on the lower left with the lights and what looks like a speaker?


----------



## backstay

mxslick said:


> Thanks for the follow-up pics. :thumbup:
> 
> There are those who say QO's are the god of panels and never fail..well...oops.
> 
> What is the box on the lower left with the lights and what looks like a speaker?


A hi level alarm for the sewer lift station.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Backstay.,

That look good however I may have a critzite to ya did you ever get a chance to remark couple white conductors that landed to the breakers ??

Merci.
Marc


----------



## backstay

frenchelectrican said:


> Backstay.,
> 
> That look good however I may have a critzite to ya did you ever get a chance to remark couple white conductors that landed to the breakers ??
> 
> Merci.
> Marc


Yes, I always re-identify my white conductors, I just hadn’t finished when I took the picture.


----------



## backstay

Here was a 4 sq box with signal wiring(220 volt). The wiring is run on the power company's poles a 1/4 mile(14,400 volt). A tree fell on the line it sagged down to the signal wires and BOOM! I was going to my daughter's when the city called(it shut down water to half the town) and I was 125 miles away. Had to turn around and fix it. Took me 45 min, figure out the billing on that one! Opps, forgot pic


----------



## frenchelectrican

backstay said:


> Here was a 4 sq box with signal wiring(220 volt). The wiring is run on the power company's poles a 1/4 mile(14,400 volt). A tree fell on the line it sagged down to the signal wires and BOOM! I was going to my daughter's when the city called(it shut down water to half the town) and I was 125 miles away. Had to turn around and fix it. Took me 45 min, figure out the billing on that one!


All of this happend during the storm ??

But figure out the time to come and deal with it can be little nutty.

Merci.
Marc


----------



## guest

backstay said:


> Here was a 4 sq box with signal wiring(220 volt). The wiring is run on the power company's poles a 1/4 mile(14,400 volt). A tree fell on the line it sagged down to the signal wires and BOOM! I was going to my daughter's when the city called(it shut down water to half the town) and I was 125 miles away. Had to turn around and fix it. Took me 45 min, figure out the billing on that one!


Can't see the pic on this one..was there a pic?


----------



## backstay

mxslick said:


> Can't see the pic on this one..was there a pic?


 
Sorry, forgot pic. Look up 3 posts.


----------



## guest

backstay said:


> Sorry, forgot pic. Look up 3 posts.


Got it, thanks!! :thumbup:

Man you get to see some really cool burn-ups.


----------



## LegacyofTroy

Wheres bonding screw?


----------



## LegacyofTroy

Looks crooked


----------



## backstay

LegacyofTroy said:


> Wheres bonding screw?


In the panel on the right side, CH panels are bonded in the cross strap.


----------



## Jlarson

backstay said:


> Here was a 4 sq box with signal wiring(220 volt). The wiring is run on the power company's poles a 1/4 mile(14,400 volt). A tree fell on the line it sagged down to the signal wires and BOOM! I was going to my daughter's when the city called(it shut down water to half the town) and I was 125 miles away. Had to turn around and fix it. Took me 45 min, figure out the billing on that one! Opps, forgot pic


That's one of my biggest problems with signal lines like that. We make good coin updating them with radio after events like that.


----------



## backstay

Jlarson said:


> That's one of my biggest problems with signal lines like that. We make good coin updating them with radio after events like that.


These controls are 1940's and look it. The power company fixed the overhead, but the other end didn't get damaged at all so the system is still in place.


----------



## trzebrand

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


 Nice work. Just wondering how everything works with no feed cables.


----------



## Jlarson

backstay said:


> These controls are 1940's and look it. The power company fixed the overhead, but the other end didn't get damaged at all so the system is still in place.


What was that under the 1900 box? It's too toasted to make out.


----------



## backstay

Jlarson said:


> What was that under the 1900 box? It's too toasted to make out.


A surge suppressor:whistling2:


----------



## Jlarson

backstay said:


> A surge suppressor:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::laughing: 

Yeah that happens to some of our well sites surge suppressors a lot


----------



## ElectricJoe

Nice work bro..


----------



## miller_elex

Dude, I am never putting a surge suppressor inside a load center again :blink: .

From now on, I am copying Backstay, with the FBO, and nothing below the surge suppressor for the molten white-hot magma remains to glop onto. :thumbup:


----------



## backstay

miller_elex said:


> Dude, I am never putting a surge suppressor inside a load center again :blink: .
> 
> From now on, I am copying Backstay, with the FBO, and nothing below the surge suppressor for the molten white-hot magma remains to glop onto. :thumbup:


I don't think the surge suppressor had a chance, 14,400 volts and I would say it was shorted for a few minutes. Not my work, I came after the fire.


----------



## cdnelectrician

CheapCharlie said:


> Not Resi, but here are some pictures of panels I've done. I work for the POCO here. What it looks like before and after. I have more if you're interested.


What are these panels controlling? Looks good! I would love to do stuff like that every day!


----------



## electrolover

curranelectric said:


> Panel I finished a week ago. New location. Turned old main into a 50 amp sub panel.



do you not believe in strapping pipe?


----------



## CheapCharlie

cdnelectrician said:


> What are these panels controlling? Looks good! I would love to do stuff like that every day!


The first ones are for controlling fans and pumps on our 500kV converter transformers. The last 2 are for fire alarm system Heat Activated Devices.
Thanks!


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

40 space BR just replaced


----------



## Shockdoc

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 6396
> 
> 
> 
> 40 space BR just replaced


Nice labeling job:thumbsup: That's usually what I skimp on at the end with descriptions like small aplliance ckt, lights and receptacles, dryer ,etc.


----------



## farlsincharge

Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


----------



## backstay

That look's really good when I set my screen on it's side. Sorry, I just can't get use to them sideways panels.:blink:


----------



## kaboler

backstay said:


> That look's really good when I set my screen on it's side. Sorry, I just can't get use to them sideways panels.:blink:


Me too. I like the little transformer mount as well.


----------



## Big John

farlsincharge said:


> Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


That actually looks a lot cleaner than trying to cram the same number of homeruns into the top. Looks like it's mounted 48" off the floor, seems like it might be a pain to see what you were doing when working on the top row.

-John


----------



## farlsincharge

It is 5' to the center of the panel. I usually sit on top of a 4' ladder.


----------



## kaboler

Big John said:


> That actually looks a lot cleaner than trying to cram the same number of homeruns into the top. Looks like it's mounted 48" off the floor, seems like it might be a pain to see what you were doing when working on the top row.
> 
> -John


Good point. But it still looks funny. A good point though. I wouldn't mount it sideways in my own house though.

You guys ever see upside-down panels? Is there a similar story to those? Because I can see (as Big John says) why a sideways panel is good.


----------



## backstay

We can't do it anyway, 240.81


----------



## ColoradoMaster3768

backstay said:


> We can't do it anyway, 240.81


 :thumbsup:


Vertical versus horizontal mounting of enclosures for overcurrent devices is covered under 240.33 as well.


----------



## electrictim510

Sideways panel, romex at eye level, I'm sure it's okay out there but we can't do that here in Cali. Kinda jealous.


----------



## BIGRED

backstay said:


> That look's really good when I set my screen on it's side. Sorry, I just can't get use to them sideways panels.:blink:


Me either, Farls did a nice, clean job though. :thumbsup:


----------



## electricmanscott

Nice job. Too bad everybody in the house is going to die. :thumbsup:


----------



## ColoradoMaster3768

electricmanscott said:


> Nice job. Too bad everybody in the house is going to die. :thumbsup:


Yep, Farls does good work, and you sir are correct: Ain't nobody gettin' outa this world alive.


----------



## oldtimer

farlsincharge said:


> Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


 Nice clean work... But we are not permitted to strap two cables with one staple. As in your pics.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

oldtimer said:


> Nice clean work... But we are not permitted to strap two cables with one staple. As in your pics.


If your using the proper staples that allow 2 wires, then you should challenge that.


----------



## jefft110

Looks good, but why the MC?


----------



## LegacyofTroy

Breaker Markings upside down


----------



## HARRY304E

farlsincharge said:


> Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


 Wow that is good work:thumbup:

That side ways look is strange to see..:laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E

backstay said:


> Here was a 4 sq box with signal wiring(220 volt). The wiring is run on the power company's poles a 1/4 mile(14,400 volt). A tree fell on the line it sagged down to the signal wires and BOOM! I was going to my daughter's when the city called(it shut down water to half the town) and I was 125 miles away. Had to turn around and fix it. Took me 45 min, figure out the billing on that one! Opps, forgot pic


What are the signal wires from the POCO for..?


----------



## rnr electric

is the ground and neutral seperated or connected by the bar?. some places use (3 wire), SEU and are permitted "closest point of entry",others run 4 wire SER (isolated neutral), but either way Great Job!! that SH$# looks great, good job. Take a little pride in your work. and thats the difference between a crafstman and a construction worker...kudos


----------



## [email protected]

Other than the top row of breakers is a violation it looks good

Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


----------



## farlsincharge

[email protected] said:


> Other than the top row of breakers is a violation it looks good
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ET Forum


Why is that? MWBC on sp breakers?

What is the reason given as to why you guys can't lay a panel on its side?


----------



## crazyboy

farlsincharge said:


> Why is that? MWBC on sp breakers?
> 
> What is the reason given as to why you guys can't lay a panel on its side?


Here, up needs to be on and down needs to be off.


----------



## Shockdoc

farlsincharge said:


> Why is that? MWBC on sp breakers?
> 
> What is the reason given as to why you guys can't lay a panel on its side?


We are allowed to place panels sideways as long as the main breaker up is on. It just very akward since all the Us panels incorporate doors which often have to be held open to attend to a breaker. I have probably only installed two or three sideways panels in the last 25 years as replacements to work with old custom wood finishes the HO wishes not to have disturbed.


----------



## NMJockey

hello everyone did a service upgrade today heres the panel I did.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## kawaikfx400

ahh i Dread when i have to use a CH BR panel, There so cheesy and i hate how the neutral gets landed. But good work! Sometimes there tough to make look neat with that god awful neutral in the way of half the panel.


----------



## Shockdoc

NMJockey said:


> hello everyone did a service upgrade today heres the panel I did.
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


That panel screams , "LONG ISLAND" all over it.


----------



## NMJockey

hahahaha yeaahhh buddy oh well this is my 1st year in the trade


----------



## Shockdoc

NMJockey said:


> hahahaha yeaahhh buddy oh well this is my 1st year in the trade


My geoghaphical guess was right. Nothing wrong with it, for Long island....I have a five year mechanic I know who's panels look 20 times worst :laughing:


----------



## ralph

I think I dont know what to think about a sideways load center, but I would like to know why the ground wires seem to be wound together ?. 
I think I would have a problem paying someone to do that.
Nice neat job other than those grounds. Congrats


----------



## steelersman

ralph said:


> I think I dont know what to think about a sideways load center, but I would like to know why the ground wires seem to be wound together ?.
> I think I would have a problem paying someone to do that.
> Nice neat job other than those grounds. Congrats


Assuming you're talking about the new guy with the most recent photo, then how else do you think he's supposed to land the main ground/neutral?


----------



## user4818

farlsincharge said:


> Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


I'm curious as to why a few of those circuits are MC (teck) cable?


----------



## 76nemo

Peter D said:


> I'm curious as to why a few of those circuits are MC (teck) cable?


 
I'll venture a guess. Maybe not all install by code minimum. Look at the artwork with NM that was posted years ago by Bob on another forum. To me it was nice, but I wouldn't of done that job as it was done in those pictures. I'd of troughed and piped to the first floor, but who am I to say?????????????????????????


----------



## ralph

im talking about the sideways panel. The equip grounds look like they are twisted together.2 or three each.


----------



## steelersman

ralph said:


> im talking about the sideways panel. The equip grounds look like they are twisted together.2 or three each.


Oh ok. Well there is nothing wrong with twisting 2 or 3 grounds together and landing under same terminal at the bar so I don't know why you mention it.


----------



## Jlarson

ralph said:


> im talking about the sideways panel. The equip grounds look like they are twisted together.2 or three each.


Some people do that when they bring two cables in through the same connector.


----------



## farlsincharge

The grounds are twisted together because there are not enough terminals for each wire individually. If more than one wire is terminated in one terminal they must be twisted. I hate it too.

The Armored cable runs to electric water heaters that are close to the panel. Rather than run NMD and then junction to AC90 at the water heater in such a short span, I just ran AC90.

The teck is 6/2 feeding the backup heat in a geothermal unit. I had the teck on hand and didn't feel like splicing it at the unit anyway, so I used the teck.

Here are some more pics of that mechanical room

Mass tank for Floor heat with backup electric installed, Geothermal compressor for the floor heating/cooling









Ground loop pumps 









Forced air Geothermal and Water heaters. There is where the Ac90 and Teck go


----------



## ralph

wether they land on the same terminal or not, I feel its not a great use of time if Im paying someone 24 dollars an hour. Thats just me though.


----------



## farlsincharge

ralph said:


> wether they land on the same terminal or not, I feel its not a great use of time if Im paying someone 24 dollars an hour. Thats just me though.


First of all... it's more than $24 an hour
Second....it takes very little time, as in I can terminate all my grounds in under 10 minutes
Third....I have no choice


----------



## steelersman

ralph said:


> wether they land on the same terminal or not, I feel its not a great use of time if Im paying someone 24 dollars an hour. Thats just me though.


Please tell me you're not saying that it takes longer to land 2 or 3 grounds under one terminal as opposed to landing them individually.


----------



## steelersman

farlsincharge said:


> First of all... it's more than $24 an hour
> Second....it takes very little time, as in I can terminate all my grounds in under 10 minutes
> Third....I have no choice


Keep up the good work farls. Those pics are the neatest work I've ever seen. And I can admit that I'm nowhere near as neat. I'm not gonna dog my own work. It's neat, but not even close to as neat as those pics represent. To me it would require an obsessed mentality to do that......:thumbsup:


----------



## HARRY304E

kawaikfx400 said:


> ahh i Dread when i have to use a CH BR panel, There so cheesy and i hate how the neutral gets landed. But good work! Sometimes there tough to make look neat with that god awful neutral in the way of half the panel.


Those panels are better then the murrys..


----------



## HARRY304E

NMJockey said:


> hello everyone did a service upgrade today heres the panel I did.
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


 Looks good....:thumbup:


----------



## electrictim510

In my opinion; If you cannot afford to pay an electrician to make a job look good as well as function well, you're not charging enough.


----------



## ralph

No. I am not saying that.Landing as many under a terminal that is approved by the manufacturer is something I would hope people do. To sit there and twist equip grounds together I dont care to have any employee of mine doing. Have at it if you work for someone else. I am saying to take the time to twist them together seems alittle much for me.


----------



## user4818

farlsincharge said:


> Ground loop pumps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forced air Geothermal and Water heaters. There is where the Ac90 and Teck go



I'm no plumber but having pex fly all over the place like that looks kinda hack.


----------



## nrp3

I like the look of copper too, but if its my basement pex is just fine.


----------



## steelersman

nrp3 said:


> I like the look of copper too, but if its my basement pex is just fine.



Well since we've moved onto plumbing I'll say that I would prefer to have cpvc in my house rather than pex.


----------



## nrp3

Reason for that,just curious? You talking the white stuff glued together?


----------



## steelersman

nrp3 said:


> Reason for that,just curious? You talking the white stuff glued together?


I don't trust the cheesy looking fittings for pex. And yes I'm talking about the white pvc pipe and the yellow glue.


----------



## backstay

Here's some copper.


----------



## captkirk

I prefer copper myself... I love the fact that plumbers pay much less for materials now but still charge like its copper pipe....god bless them...:thumbup:


----------



## user4818

backstay said:


> Here's some copper.





There's some serious man hours and material in that job. 



As for PEX, it's the amateur plumber's best friend, like me! :whistling2:


----------



## electrictim510

Twisting the grounds to me is faster than landing each and every ground to its own screw.


----------



## user4818

electrictim510 said:


> Twisting the grounds to me is faster than landing each and every ground to its own screw.


Actually, what would be even faster is to stick them all in a 10-port Wago. :thumbup:


----------



## electrictim510

:laughing::clap::laughing::clap::laughing::clap:


----------



## captkirk

I can see a lot of inspectors having a problem with twisting all the grounds like that...I would love to do it myself, looks like a great time saver but I would be really upset if they made me change it...


----------



## electrictim510

captkirk said:


> I can see a lot of inspectors having a problem with twisting all the grounds like that...I would love to do it myself, looks like a great time saver but I would be really upset if they made me change it...


I thought the same thing too until I started seeing it all the time. I asked an inspector and he said it was fine, just need a mechanical connection.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Peter D said:


> Actually, what would be even faster is to stick them all in a 10-port Wago. :thumbup:


Yeah it can be done but nice gotcha is you have to watch out the conductor sizing that can bite your rear end :whistling2:

I have done couple time in France but the inspector let it slide for moi he quote " Ne le faites pas de nouveau " ( Don't do that again ) 

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Jmohl

*Looks great!*

The panel instals I'm seeing here look pretty sweet. Taking time to make things neat and professional looking is worth it IMO. That said, I am reminded of an incident. My whole family has at one time or another been resi elec. My middle brother was working for a contractor in central Fl. at the time and was working on a major subdiv. proj. When we all worked for my Dad, if he caught you stabbing into the back of receps instead of looping on the terminal, we would get our butts kicked. That's just how we learned to do it. So anyway, the contractor comes on site, sees my bro looping and landing receps and gives him a whole ration of crap. Tells him if he ever catches him wasting time like that again, he will fire my bro. So for all you resi guys out there, just an informal survey, loop or Stab?


----------



## EMeis1114

This is a 400 amp 480/277 distribution panel that I installed. It is fed by parallel 4/0. It feeds two 75kva stepdown transformers.


----------



## frenchelectrican

EMeis1114 said:


> This is a 400 amp 480/277 distribution panel that I installed. It is fed by parallel 4/0. It feeds two 75kva stepdown transformers.


That is pretty instering place to put the neutral in there but that look cool there.

If you don't mind me what modél it is ??

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Wirenuting

Jmohl said:


> The panel instals I'm seeing here look pretty sweet. Taking time to make things neat and professional looking is worth it IMO. That said, I am reminded of an incident. My whole family has at one time or another been resi elec. My middle brother was working for a contractor in central Fl. at the time and was working on a major subdiv. proj. When we all worked for my Dad, if he caught you stabbing into the back of receps instead of looping on the terminal, we would get our butts kicked. That's just how we learned to do it. So anyway, the contractor comes on site, sees my bro looping and landing receps and gives him a whole ration of crap. Tells him if he ever catches him wasting time like that again, he will fire my bro. So for all you resi guys out there, just an informal survey, loop or Stab?


I always loop and never rush. I was in a code update class a few years ago and the instructor explained why back stabbing was better. He stated that the spring tension always held the conductor better as the receptacle heated and cooled. I don't believe it based on what I see all the time. Looped wires can come loose over time, but I've seen fewer burned up devices by looping. 

Besides, it's not nice to back stab. You wanna see the look on their face as you plant it in their chest. 
< oh wait, wrong thread >.


----------



## Teaspoon

Wirenuting said:


> I always loop and never rush. I was in a code update class a few years ago and the instructor explained why back stabbing was better. He stated that the spring tension always held the conductor better as the receptacle heated and cooled. I don't believe it based on what I see all the time. Looped wires can come loose over time, but I've seen fewer burned up devices by looping.
> 
> Besides, it's not nice to back stab. You wanna see the look on their face as you plant it in their chest.
> < oh wait, wrong thread >.


Always loop. I would say from what I have seen in the field this Instructor is misinformed. A lot more problems from back stabbing.The back wire receptacles with the screws to compress on the wire are great,but quit expensive.


----------



## EMeis1114

frenchelectrican said:


> That is pretty instering place to put the neutral in there but that look cool there.
> 
> If you don't mind me what modél it is ??
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


I thought the neutral was pretty strange too. It actually worked pretty well. I'm not sure the model, but it's a CH panel. The lame part is that it only came with mounting hardware for the 2 200A breakers that we ordered it with. You can't just pop another breaker in, you have to do a shutdown and install the fingers to the bus bars.


----------



## randas

EMeis1114 said:


> This is a 400 amp 480/277 distribution panel that I installed. It is fed by parallel 4/0. It feeds two 75kva stepdown transformers.


How do you get away with parallel 4/0 for 400A :blink:

Around here that would have to be 250al unless it was a resi service entrance


----------



## Jeter

200 amp, 17 Kw gen, auto transfer switch,


----------



## Jeter

600v /3ph, 200amp , 30 KVA transformer down to - 120/208.


----------



## electrictim510

LB/LB access violation?


----------



## tates1882

Jeter said:


> 600v /3ph, 200amp , 30 KVA transformer down to - 120/208.


 You need a LLB conduit body. Screwing anyone doing future work.


----------



## Jeter

If u can access from one of the LB's (which is the top one) u dont need an LR or LL which is twice the cost. Easily accessed from top LB . Inspector had no problems . Done it like that lots of times. If
You needed to run new wires it is accessable from top


----------



## Jeter

We accually put it together first then ran the wires , wasnt hard at all, if u have a hard time doing it again theres something wrong, dont think we didnt bring that up with inspectors, we are aware, not a big deal, passed, # 3 copper an't that big to run in 2" pipe


----------



## McClary’s Electrical

Jeter said:


> If u can access from one of the LB's (which is the top one) u dont need an LR or LL which is twice the cost. Easily accessed from top LB . Inspector had no problems . Done it like that lots of times. If
> You needed to run new wires it is accessable from top


 

The top LB doesn't help get wires throught the bottom LB


----------



## Techy

you'll never make a big wire make that turn in the lower LB though, definitely shouldve been an LL


----------



## user4818

A piece of trough/wireway would have been much better than back to back LB's or even an LL and LR.


----------



## Jeter

We totally know that, supplier dropped
Of wrong one, inspector said it was good to go before we installed it, thats why we asked before doing, i know it would be easier the other way, but he said it was fine, this was done 3 months ago ,


----------



## tates1882

Still doesn't change the fact its wrong. When you put up pics here be prepared to get critiqued to the max.


----------



## backstay

Peter D said:


> A piece of trough/wireway would have been much better than back to back LB's or even an LL and LR.


That many panels would be better served with troughs, I agree Peter.


----------



## EMeis1114

randas said:


> How do you get away with parallel 4/0 for 400A :blink:
> 
> Around here that would have to be 250al unless it was a resi service entrance


I didn't do the calculation for the install(my boss did) but I believe It's because each 4/0 copper is good for 195A per 310.16, so two in parallel would be good for 390A. You are allowed to use the next higher corresponding breaker size size for overcurrent devices rated 800A or less per 240.4(B)(2).


----------



## EMeis1114

And 75 degree terminals brings it to 230A per 4/0 which allows for derating.


----------



## randas

EMeis1114 said:


> I didn't do the calculation for the install(my boss did) but I believe It's because each 4/0 copper is good for 195A per 310.16, so two in parallel would be good for 390A. You are allowed to use the next higher corresponding breaker size size for overcurrent devices rated 800A or less per 240.4(B)(2).


Whoops my stoopid is showing. For some reason I thought your post said aluminum, my bad :thumbsup:


----------



## EMeis1114

randas said:


> Whoops my stoopid is showing. For some reason I thought your post said aluminum, my bad :thumbsup:


It's cool, it kept me thinking.


----------



## JPRO2

A panel in a house I did for an RTM job site we do all the houses for


----------



## user4818

A brand new FPE panel. Weird.


----------



## JPRO2

Haha ya those are pretty much the only panel installed in houses around here well see what the new style is like


----------



## farlsincharge

JPRO2 said:


> Haha ya those are pretty much the only panel installed in houses around here well see what the new style is like


Really?
Everything I have seen in alberta has been seimens. The FPE is a big step up from that IMHO.


----------



## mattsilkwood

Peter D said:


> A brand new FPE panel. Weird.


 It's cool. It gets cold in Canada, it'll help heat the house.:laughing:


----------



## JPRO2

I haven't seen anything but FPE in houses around here except the really old ones with Westinghouse haha


----------



## John

Started this 400 amp 408Y/277v service Monday. More pictures when I get around to taking them. :whistling2:

View attachment 7109


----------



## MF Dagger

John said:


> Started this 400 amp 408Y/277v service Monday. More pictures when I get around to taking them. :whistling2:


Looks awful.


----------



## B W E

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


If I screwed up and drilled a 2" hole and had to snap in a KO seal, I wouldn't photograph it and show it off. Spending a couple extra hours like you're auditioning for "America's next top electrician" and neatly bending all your neutrals like that seems like a waste of time. Trying to make up for the 2" screw up?


----------



## electrictim510

B W E said:


> If I screwed up and drilled a 2" hole and had to snap in a KO seal, I wouldn't photograph it and show it off. Spending a couple extra hours like you're auditioning for "America's next top electrician" and neatly bending all your neutrals like that seems like a waste of time. Trying to make up for the 2" screw up?


This is a weird random post. Why quote the OP with a comment like this? Did I miss something?

Making a neat panel(not excessively so) is a must in my opinion. I have come across too many messy panels to do a new circuit in another electricians installation and had to clean it up before I start my own work. If you're not willing to make your work neat I would hate to see your work outside of panels.


----------



## Honestly

This one is new construction I am just finishing up. Took about 6 hrs. I usually don't spend that much time, but I wanted to show this one off. I always hang a fly swatter on the side- kind of a trademark thing.


----------



## JPRO2

Couple more pictures this one has a couple more circuits I know how much you all love Federal.
We will actually be using the new federal panels schnedier has developed once we use up the rest of our breakers. They call it homeline basically looks like a cross between square d and federal


----------



## doubleoh7

Honestly said:


> This one is new construction I am just finishing up. Took about 6 hrs. I usually don't spend that much time, but I wanted to show this one off. I always hang a fly swatter on the side- kind of a trademark thing.


 

Damn, that's the Rosie O'donnel of panels.


----------



## crazy electrician

bobelectric said:


> I don't see the reasoning for twisting the grounding conductors


I don't see a reason either and I also don't see any AFCI's either.


----------



## JayWater

Honestly said:


> This one is new construction I am just finishing up. Took about 6 hrs. I usually don't spend that much time, but I wanted to show this one off. I always hang a fly swatter on the side- kind of a trademark thing.


Lol.. That's a brand new panel? What's with the 3 feet of romex in the panel.. I like the fly swatter.. It adds more characterr to the panel that's already full of charracter


----------



## Shockdoc

I'm a Long island hack, cut all wires at same length and fold back up tp breakers and bars. Once in a while I'll take my time and do that, depends on how much i'm getting.


----------



## Honestly

Actually, it is a slew of diy wiring reaching back to the to the invention of wire  It is on a complete rewire of a 3500 sq ft 200 yr old house. All electrical in the house has been added through the years. Doing a full rewire in all finished rooms while they live there. T&M. Haven't gotten around to cleaning up the panel yet


----------



## JayWater

Honestly said:


> Actually, it is a slew of diy wiring reaching back to the to the invention of wire  It is on a complete rewire of a 3500 sq ft 200 yr old house. All electrical in the house has been added through the years. Doing a full rewire in all finished rooms while they live there. T&M. Haven't gotten around to cleaning up the panel yet


Oh ok... When u said new construction I figured it was new panel all new home runs . And u said it took u 6 hours so I thought u spent a lot of time in the panel


----------



## Honestly

JayWater said:


> Oh ok... When u said new construction I figured it was new panel all new home runs . And u said it took u 6 hours so I thought u spent a lot of time in the panel


Nah, I was just kidding around


----------



## JayWater

Lol I figurred that.


----------



## johnsmithabe

simple and clearly fixed.


----------



## JPRO2




----------



## user4818

I don't think I'll ever get used to seeing brand new Federal Pacific stuff. :no:


----------



## JPRO2

Haha once we use up all the stock we will be using homeline by schiender fpe isn't my favorite or personal preference just what I'm supplied lol


----------



## cdnelectrician

JPRO2 said:


>


Aside from the FPE panel, that is nice work. Exactly how I do my panels too. :thumbsup:


----------



## user4818

So most of your circuitry in Canada is #14, eh? What do the #12's go to?


----------



## Ontariojer

Peter D said:


> So most of your circuitry in Canada is #14, eh? What do the #12's go to?


12s for kitchen counter recs. 14s for all the other recs/lites. It's how we roll.

And btw, it's federal PIONEER up here. (still a POS though!)


----------



## JPRO2

Hey thanks for the positive feedback ya I know whatcha mean I'm getting anxious to switch to the other panels haha and yup the #12 is for counter GFCIS


----------



## user4818

Ontariojer said:


> And btw, it's federal PIONEER up here. (still a POS though!)


Yeah, so I've heard. I can't really tell from the picture, but it has what appears to be a standard Square D QO main breaker, which is even more bizarre. You have one of the best breakers of all time paired with one of the worst. :blink:


----------



## BBQ

Peter D said:


> Yeah, so I've heard. I can't really tell from the picture, but it has what appears to be a standard Square D QO main breaker, which is even more bizarre. You have one of the best breakers of all time paired with one of the worst. :blink:


It will all be crap soon enough.


(man, I sound like Harry)


----------



## cguillas

Ontariojer said:


> 12s for kitchen counter recs. 14s for all the other recs/lites. It's how we roll.
> 
> And btw, it's federal PIONEER up here. (still a POS though!)


Don't forget the hot water tank and baseboard heaters. Also have you had to fit up any houses so big that you had to account for drop?


----------



## user4818

BBQ said:


> It will all be crap soon enough.
> 
> 
> (man, I sound like Harry)


----------



## HARRY304E

BBQ said:


> It will all be crap soon enough.
> 
> 
> (man, I sound like Harry)



Thank you.....:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Ontariojer

cguillas said:


> Don't forget the hot water tank and baseboard heaters. Also have you had to fit up any houses so big that you had to account for drop?


What's your point? I guess I also forgot #10 for dryers and #8 for the range.

But, I was talking about the normal average resi job. :hammer:


----------



## Stan B.

farlsincharge said:


> Here is what a typical panel install looks like when I am finished. Due to a few code rules, I prefer to lay the panel on its side whenever possible.


Can you elaborate?


----------



## 8V92TA

Ontariojer said:


> What's your point? I guess I also forgot #10 for dryers and #8 for the range.
> 
> But, I was talking about the normal average resi job. :hammer:


You only run a 40A range circuit? Interesting. I have never ran anything smaller than 50A for a range, wires of course with 6/3.


----------



## cguillas

8V92TA said:


> You only run a 40A range circuit? Interesting. I have never ran anything smaller than 50A for a range, wires of course with 6/3.


Copper's expensive and almost every range sold is 40A. Someone would have to be asking and paying for more. 

Me personally I'm partial to the eight foot wide gas fired commercial flat-tops. No power needed at all and I can cook for 20 at once.


----------



## backstay

cguillas said:


> Copper's expensive and almost every range sold is 40A. Someone would have to be asking and paying for more.
> 
> Me personally I'm partial to the eight foot wide gas fired commercial flat-tops. No power needed at all and I can cook for 20 at once.


Wow 8 ft wide, I have a double oven(full size) 6 burner, 24 in raised griddle with a broiler under and it's 5 ft wide. I think you could cook for 100 easy with your's! 

Oh, I only run 6/3 to a range too. If it's something like a wall oven or a cook top then I run what it needs.


----------



## cguillas

Oh, I didn't say I had one; just that I like them. 

I love to cook; if I ever build a dream kitchen it's going to be gas fired all around. Hell, with the price of electricity these days I can't figure out why we're installing electric range runs at all.


----------



## backstay

cguillas said:


> Oh, I didn't say I had one; just that I like them.
> 
> I love to cook; if I ever build a dream kitchen it's going to be gas fired all around. Hell, with the price of electricity these days I can't figure out why we're installing electric range runs at all.


Here what mine looks like, I don't have a good picture so I snagged this off the web.


----------



## cguillas

Yep. Sunday breakfast for sixteen and the turkeys are roasting for lunch.


----------



## 3xdad

Just a service for a resi shop and well pump.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Bonjour 3xdad.,

Can you get the model number of that all in one box due that is little unuseal set up due I do know you have take off lugs below the 200 amp main breaker however the top two pole breaker that is on seperated one as well ??

Merci,
Marc


----------



## 3xdad

frenchelectrican said:


> Bonjour 3xdad.,
> 
> Can you get the model number of that all in one box due that is little unuseal set up due I do know you have take off lugs below the 200 amp main breaker however the top two pole breaker that is on seperated one as well ??
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


Square D SC816D200C

Yes, the top two spaces are 50A max disconnect off load side of meter. i usually feed the well pumps from this.


----------



## sarness

Service I did 17 years ago, original panel was an fpe, the ge was the only panel I could find at the supply house that would fit and contain that many circuits.

The sub was installed about 8 years ago for some future circuits that haven't appeared yet, as such its bare.


----------



## backstay

cguillas said:


> Yep. Sunday breakfast for sixteen and the turkeys are roasting for lunch.


Here is the real deal. I built upper cabinets to enclose the ex fan, which cost half the price of the range.


----------



## frenchelectrican

Jezz that look like serious firepower with gaz range like that big.

That look famuiar is that a Wolf unit ?

Merci,
Marc


----------



## BBQ

backstay said:


> Here is the real deal. I built upper cabinets to enclose the ex fan, which cost half the price of the range.


Is that a true commercial range ........ can't install them in dwelling units.


----------



## TOOL_5150

BBQ said:


> Is that a true commercial range ........ can't install them in dwelling units.


Oh, but he did! :laughing:


----------



## frenchelectrican

TOOL_5150 said:


> Oh, but he did! :laughing:


 
Yeah that why that person did have serious firepower on that range and I know for a fact it have at least twice more BTU than the resdentail gaz range is rated The max resdentail gaz burner are 11,000 BTU while commercal one will go much higher useally 15,000 to 35,000 BTU unless you got a wok burner option that can kick up much as 50,000 BTU.

Merci,
Marc


----------



## Shockdoc

BBQ said:


> Is that a true commercial range ........ can't install them in dwelling units.


Time for an ansul sysytem and gas shut off valve. Where does he live ? The local plumbers can use some work after the FM visits:laughing:


----------



## cguillas

That's fantastic. I would get my house rezoned just to be able to put one of those in.


----------



## captkirk

backstay said:


> Here is the real deal. I built upper cabinets to enclose the ex fan, which cost half the price of the range.


OH dude nice set up i am seriously jealous...I could do at least 60 covers with that badboy.... really nice.. Is it a real commercial range...? that flat top kicks ass....I could make sunday breakfast with ease for at least 20 people.... THe only thing I would have done is install a stock pot filler somewhere...What size gas line do you have for that..?


----------



## backstay

frenchelectrican said:


> Jezz that look like serious firepower with gaz range like that big.
> 
> That look famuiar is that a Wolf unit ?
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


It is made by Wolf but for Superior Products.


----------



## backstay

BBQ said:


> Is that a true commercial range ........ can't install them in dwelling units.


True commercial unit. The insurance company looked at it and gave their blessing. There are set backs rear and side.


----------



## backstay

captkirk said:


> OH dude nice set up i am seriously jealous...I could do at least 60 covers with that badboy.... really nice.. Is it a real commercial range...? that flat top kicks ass....I could make sunday breakfast with ease for at least 20 people.... THe only thing I would have done is install a stock pot filler somewhere...What size gas line do you have for that..?


The thing cost us $2100 new with a scratch. When we make pancakes, it's 6 big ones at a time. No more 1 or 2 then wait. My wife cans a lot and on the last two gas ranges the tops burnt because of the heat. This one will last us a life time. The unit is on an inside wall and I don't have water in it. Gas line is the same as the old one, it's 1/2 in black iron.


----------



## sarness

backstay said:


> When we make pancakes, it's 6 big ones at a time. No more 1 or 2 then wait.


I'd get just for that! Can take so long to make them in a pan.


----------



## Lockey

Fire Alarm i did in a tent a couple years ago. I never got completion pics. And yes the grounds where twisted and I personal do hate that. Everything came into a splitter than into the one of two 3/4" pipe, that went to the main fire alarm panel. Then to termination points, then off points to a little Cabinet, battery backup on botton right, and a small box for a antenna so that it can communication with couple more systems and a main fire alarm hub. It was all #14/2 strained tek cable. running to all the devices.


----------



## sxpert

frenchelectrican said:


> Yeah it can be done but nice gotcha is you have to watch out the conductor sizing that can bite your rear end :whistling2:
> 
> I have done couple time in France but the inspector let it slide for moi he quote " Ne le faites pas de nouveau " ( Don't do that again )
> 
> Merci,
> Marc


here, a pair of 30+ port wago^WLegrand, that's to code here (see at the bottom), you just have to stick the ground wires each into its own port










this is my mum's panel which I'm modifying right now to clean it up and add stuff


----------



## MDShunk

I somewhat wish we had some manufacturer that would make a bus-less panel in North America.


----------



## sxpert

MDShunk said:


> I somewhat wish we had some manufacturer that would make a bus-less panel in North America.


ah, but we have buses here too, they're just more modular 

Differential switch at the start of the row (grey lever) which acts as an overcurrent device, then buses at top, and breakers, with each circuit at the bottom.

breakers cut Phase *AND* Neutral at the same time, only trip on phase


----------



## n5i5ken

*Panel Pictures*

Looks Great: One question Why is there no separation between mains and branch circuit conductors? In Alberta (Canada) we cannot run branch circuit conductors through the Mains Compartment, 
Thanks/


----------



## captkirk

backstay said:


> The thing cost us $2100 new with a scratch. When we make pancakes, it's 6 big ones at a time. No more 1 or 2 then wait. My wife cans a lot and on the last two gas ranges the tops burnt because of the heat. This one will last us a life time. The unit is on an inside wall and I don't have water in it. Gas line is the same as the old one, it's 1/2 in black iron.


 Im so ready to go down to the bowery in the city and get a real stove...I cant stand the Viking and Wolf wanna be commercial ranges....they are really no better than most standard home ranges...I would install a real hood before I put one in, something mounted on the outside like a mushroom fan or something..
2100 for that beast is a steal......nice going..


----------



## sxpert

n5i5ken said:


> Looks Great: One question Why is there no separation between mains and branch circuit conductors? In Alberta (Canada) we cannot run branch circuit conductors through the Mains Compartment,
> Thanks/


Technically, there's a main breaker (60A / 500mA delayed) that sits above that, which is in this case located next to the meter, by the main gate, I suppose this would accomplish the same.
However, you could have a setup where the cable going to the meter passes through the same location as the branch circuits. the PTB don't see that as a problem apparently, sufficient physical separation is achieved by the cable's sheathing.
You could also do it in a way where you install that cable in a specific compartment of the white pvc gutter (you have pvc wall mounting ridges in the gutter)


----------



## frenchelectrican

n5i5ken said:


> Looks Great: One question Why is there no separation between mains and branch circuit conductors? In Alberta (Canada) we cannot run branch circuit conductors through the Mains Compartment,
> Thanks/


Le USA verison do not have any speration on main and branch or feeder breakers but switchboard may have it depending on set up.

For French verison 

As you see sxpert's photo that is typical in most of the European panels set up and that one is a monophase { single phase } and there is triphase verison used as well.

Once a while I will get Américane panel in France.

As far for colour codes we have to use the modern colour code { there is two legit combations we can use in France } plus older one { there is few verison so we have to be on the " toe " when we see nonstandard colour format.

Sxpert.,
Non très souvent j'ai voir l'échange d'interrupteur Différentiel avec cela bas une évaluation. 30ma taille

(Not very often I have see the Differential breaker switch with that low a rating. 30ma size)


Merci,
Marc


----------



## sxpert

frenchelectrican said:


> (Not very often I have see the Differential breaker switch with that low a rating. 30ma size)


Code here imposes whole house GFCI, which those are.
The device pictured above can handle up to 40A, and protects if there is 30mA between Phase and Ground.
We're using TT neutral regimen here, so Neutral is grounded at the closest transformer


----------



## frenchelectrican

sxpert said:


> Code here imposes whole house GFCI, which those are.
> The device pictured above can handle up to 40A, and protects if there is 30mA between Phase and Ground.
> We're using TT neutral regimen here, so Neutral is grounded at the closest transformer


Bonjour Sxpert.,

Ahh ok je comprends où vous venez et d'Oui je suis conscient avec le système TT et j'ai l'habitude au travail sur le système TN-C-S cela l'exchat le même dans majorty de côté des USA mais peu fonctionnent vraiment dans TT ou IT {c'est sinistre en observant les connexions c'est vrai avec le système Terre de Coin de Delta}

J'ai voir tant 30ma que 100ma mettant sur l'interrupteur RCD.


Ahh ok I understand where you are comming from and Yes I am aware with the TT system and I am used to work on TN-C-S system it the excat the same in majorty of USA side but few do run in either TT or IT { it is spooky if not watching the connections this is true with Delta Corner Ground system }

I have see both 30ma and 100ma setting on the RCD breaker.


Merci,
Marc


----------



## electrocop

HIGH IMPORTANCE ! the issue here is per code breaker switches in the off position swipe down so on the right side of the panel it would be opposite it would be swiping up to turn off this would not pass my inspection, reply and we will find the code section to ([email protected])


----------



## kalexv12

This was an easy service I did for a friend of my mothers.


----------



## kalexv12

This was an easy one Isis for a friend of my mothers.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

kalexv12 said:


> This was an easy one Isis for a friend of my mothers.


Awww look at the neat little loops. Lol, seriously. Is that extra couple inches ever going to be beneficial in the future. When was the last time you moved a panel and those loops woulda helped. But anyway, nice clean install. Just lose the loops.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

Ohh and next time use QO and not CheapLine


----------



## Jlarson

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Ohh and next time use QO and not CheapLine


They are the same breaker minus the visi trip and they are 1 inch verses 3/4 inch width and a little different bus connection.


----------



## BBQ

Jlarson said:


> They are the same breaker minus the visi trip and they are 1 inch verses 3/4 inch width and a little different bus connection.


The are the same except for this, this, this and this. :laughing:


I know what your point was it just struck me funny.


----------



## Jlarson

Yeah I know, my brain was thinking that as I was typing. :laughing:

It's only 3 this's though.

Sent from my brick phone


----------



## kalexv12

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Ohh and next time use QO and not CheapLine


I'm doing a house not a factory.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ

kalexv12 said:


> I'm doing a house not a factory.


Really?? So QO is only a standard in factories. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be NQOD panel boards. Just face it. Homeline is garbage.


----------



## kalexv12

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Really?? So QO is only a standard in factories. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be NQOD panel boards. Just face it. Homeline is garbage.


What about them makes them garbage? I'm saying they are more common to factories where there are numerous employees switching things on and off daily, and tripping circuits may occur more often, and it needs to be more heavy duty.


----------



## Jlarson

kalexv12 said:


> What about them makes them garbage?


Nothing, the actual guts of Homeline's and QO's are the same.


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## skunkyganja

Here's my remodel


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## Jmohl

Ooooooh, Jus' wait, someone in here is gonna call that hack... You see that Seu and them plastic romex staples???? Bet there's a corlon box or two in there too ain't there??? JK:laughing:, Looks good.


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## skunkyganja

Cheap ass home owner bought them staples


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## skunkyganja

Another remodel


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## SHOCKERMAN

mikeg_05 said:


> This might be on another forum, but resi guys lets see your panels!


Great work man!!


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## donselec

not bashing you but
what was the double stud you chopped out...
and why wouldnt you use a 30 ckt pnl ..:blink:


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