# A couple code questions



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> So here's the typical "I've always heard this was code" thing.
> 
> Steel tie wire used for securing flex and mc cable in commercial applications, I heard it must be galvanized tie wire. Where in the NEC?
> 
> Three screws minimum for mounting a 4 square junction box...Where in the NEC?


Never heard of those two.



SparkYZ said:


> On a raised duplex cover (industrial cover), it's a code violation if you only mount the receptacle to the plate with the center plate screw...Where in the NEC?


 406.4(C).


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> So here's the typical "I've always heard this was code" thing.
> 
> Steel tie wire used for securing flex and mc cable in commercial applications, I heard it must be galvanized tie wire. Where in the NEC?
> 
> Three screws minimum for mounting a 4 square junction box...Where in the NEC?


Neither of these are in the NEC, but they seem like excellent job specs.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

SparkYZ said:


> So here's the typical "I've always heard this was code" thing.
> 
> Steel tie wire used for securing flex and mc cable in commercial applications, I heard it must be galvanized tie wire. Where in the NEC?
> 
> ...


 3 screws for a 4" square box it woud be great of guys used two


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> 3 screws for a 4" square box it woud be great of guys used two


To be honest, if it's piped in and I'm fixing to a concrete wall, it's only gettin' one from me.


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

My dad always taught me three screws, and every EC I've been with has wanted the same. Hmm. If I'm screwing to concrete and its piped, I'll do two, sometimes one.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

SparkYZ said:


> My dad always taught me three screws, and every EC I've been with has wanted the same. Hmm. If I'm screwing to concrete and its piped, I'll do two, sometimes one.


Okay, so you're putting a 4-square on a bar joist, and it's piped in. Do you put 2 beam clamps on it or one?


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, so you're putting a 4-square on a bar joist, and it's piped in. Do you put 2 beam clamps on it or one?


None!








I prefer to use two of these. If I'm in a hurry, or there's fitment issues, only one. If the pipe is in and out in a straight line, I'll use one. If one conduit is going down to do a drop (like in a Wal-mart, a drop going to the aisles) then I will definitely use two for the added support should the pipe get whacked.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, so you're putting a 4-square on a bar joist, and it's piped in. Do you put 2 beam clamps on it or one?


Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

erics37 said:


> Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.


Wow. 

Well, safe to say that I can outbid you. :jester:


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## SparkYZ (Jan 20, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.


Wow, so basically the whole building could fall down in an earthquake, and that damn junction box will remain intact?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> To be honest, if it's piped in and I'm fixing to a concrete wall, it's only gettin' one from me.


To be honest that is hack and lazy.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Okay, so you're putting a 4-square on a bar joist, and it's piped in. Do you put 2 beam clamps on it or one?


Some times two but we were taking about a wall.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.



:thumbup::thumbup:


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## NolaTigaBait (Oct 19, 2008)

I have a question: BBQ, why are you up so early?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

NolaTigaBait said:


> I have a question: BBQ, why are you up so early?


 He post's in his sleep..:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.


 That Guy wire better be 10 gage:laughing:


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Tie wire isn't allowed in WA to secure MC, EMT or anything not in a slab. Has to be listed for that purpose. WAC rules. I put enough screws/fasteners on a box to securely hold it in place. In block or brick I'll usually only put two to keep from blowing out the holes.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> That Guy wire better be 10 gage:laughing:


It's an aircraft cable.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Some times two but we were taking about a wall.


I'm part of "we", and we're also talking about a bar joist. Fundamentally, what's the difference between using only one beam clamp on a bar joist, but form some reason you feel compelled to need two on everything on a wall?


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## StarLo (Jan 12, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> I'm part of "we", and we're also talking about a bar joist. Fundamentally, what's the difference between using only one beam clamp on a bar joist, but form some reason you feel compelled to need two on everything on a wall?


A beam clamp is much, much, much stronger than an anchor in sheetrock. A beam clamp is also much stronger than a plastic anchor in cement.

The application is important to consider when determining how many fasteners to use.


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## I_get_shocked (Apr 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Never heard of those two.
> 
> 
> 
> 406.4(C).


huh? how does only using the center screw violate 406.4c? Unless Im looking at the wrong section but this deals with connecting the GEC to the grounding contacts of the receptacle 

C) Methods of Grounding. The equipment grounding
conductor contacts of receptacles and cord connectors shall
be grounded by connection to the equipment grounding
conductor of the circuit supplying the receptacle or cord
connector.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I_get_shocked said:


> huh? how does only using the center screw violate 406.4c? Unless Im looking at the wrong section but this deals with connecting the GEC to the grounding contacts of the receptacle
> 
> C) Methods of Grounding. The equipment grounding
> conductor contacts of receptacles and cord connectors shall
> ...



Try 406.*4*(C), not 406.*3*(C).


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I Fundamentally, what's the difference between using only one beam clamp on a bar joist,


Within reach of people and not withing reach of people.

I have fixed to many loose boxes on walls .... usually holding receptacles, because someone could not be bothered to mount it decently.





> but form some reason you feel compelled to need two on everything on a wall?


Yeah pretty much, I will not say always, but yes for most times.

Do you have a compelling reason not to use at least two fasteners?


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

If that wall were a block wall and I was using a toggle bolt I'd be comfortable with one fastener.


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

SparkYZ said:


> So here's the typical "I've always heard this was code" thing.
> 
> Steel tie wire used for securing flex and mc cable in commercial applications, I heard it must be galvanized tie wire. Where in the NEC?
> 
> ...


I don't know the code section but you can only use one screw on the exposed work cover if you land the egc to the outlet. If it is piped and you use two screws with nuts you don't have to land the green wire on the outlet.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

running dummy said:


> I don't know the code section but you can only use one screw on the exposed work cover if you land the egc to the outlet. If it is piped and you use two screws with nuts you don't have to land the green wire on the outlet.



250.146. But it has nothing to do with pipe.


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

running dummy said:


> I don't know the code section* but you can only use one screw on the exposed work cover if you land the egc to the outlet.* If it is piped and you use two screws with nuts you don't have to land the green wire on the outlet.


Um, no.

You must use 2 screws to secure a receptacle to an industrial raised cover. (Check out 406.4(C) 2008 NEC and 406.5(C) in the 2011)

As for the grounding of receptacles mounted to covers check out 250.146(A).

Chris


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

running dummy said:


> I don't know the code section but you can only use one screw on the exposed work cover if you land the egc to the outlet. If it is piped and you use two screws with nuts you don't have to land the green wire on the outlet.


The code is very clear. More than one screw. Use all 3, 2 looks hackish.


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## doubleoh7 (Dec 5, 2009)

"I've always heard this was code" thing.:



Wire nuts in panels


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> "I've always heard this was code" thing.:
> 
> 
> 
> Wire nuts in panels



Yes, it's a "Code thing". Whatever "Code thing" means.:laughing:


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## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

doubleoh7 said:


> "I've always heard this was code" thing.:
> 
> 
> 
> Wire nuts in panels


Are you talking about the myth that splicing in a panelboard is a code violation?

Check out 312.8.

By the way this section was re-worded for the 2011 NEC to help eliminate the confusion. Here is the 2011 wording;



> *312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with*​*Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. *The wiring
> space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
> shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
> or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
> ...




Chris


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## loopholeguy (May 18, 2010)

erics37 said:


> Two beam clamps. Then I tack weld it. Then I tap the cover plate screw holes out to 10-32s and secure the plates on with hex nuts and lock washers. The whole assembly gets a redundant guy wire support system.


Awesome Post !


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## netgeek723 (Feb 6, 2011)

*Actually...*



480sparky said:


> Never heard of those two.
> 406.4(C).


Thats why they ship raised covers with the 2 additional yoke straps so you have 3 screws holding your receptacle to the plate. Mainly to be sure the plate remains grounded when pulled out of the box!


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## netgeek723 (Feb 6, 2011)

knowshorts said:


> The code is very clear. More than one screw. Use all 3, 2 looks hackish.


In this case, you must at last have a ground wire from the receptacle to the box, so that the recep remains grounded when pulled out of the box.


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

doubleoh7 said:


> "I've always heard this was code" thing.:
> 
> 
> 
> Wire nuts in panels



Probably comes from Canada. No joints in panels up here


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

randas said:


> Probably comes from Canada. No joints in panels up here


 You guys need to adopt the 2011 NEC...:laughing::laughing:


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## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> You guys need to adopt the 2011 NEC...:laughing::laughing:


No thanks I'd rather keep my SP CBs on my MWBCs instead of being allowed to make joints in panels :laughing:


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

randas said:


> Probably comes from Canada. No joints in panels up here


Got a code reference for that?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

randas said:


> Probably comes from Canada. No joints in panels up here


I do not allow my guys to use joints or any drugs at work.:blink:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

brian john said:


> I do not allow my guys to use joints or any drugs at work.:blink:


:laughing: Is it true in the canadian book that there are no taps in a panel?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> I do not allow my guys to use joints or any drugs at work.:blink:


Not even angel dust?:laughing::laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

randas said:


> No thanks I'd rather keep my SP CBs on my MWBCs instead of being allowed to make joints in panels :laughing:





> I'd rather keep my SP CBs on my MWBCs


Why whats the big deal.:blink:


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Why whats the big deal.:blink:


Why would you want a circuit to trip because another circuit was overloaded?

That seems like a pain in the ass to me, especially in a commercial or industrial setting.

I was surprised to hear about the NEC rule, I imagine it will be here soon as we seem to be blindly following the NEC more and more.


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## Quick Slash (Jan 20, 2021)

MDShunk said:


> Neither of these are in the NEC, but they seem like excellent job specs.


Tie wire is not a listed means of securement or support for any raceway ,cable or wire .


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## Quick Slash (Jan 20, 2021)

MDShunk said:


> To be honest, if it's piped in and I'm fixing to a concrete wall, it's only gettin' one from me.


HACK!!


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Quick Slash said:


> HACK!!


Alright Quick Slash you Jacka$$, fill out your profile.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Quick Slash said:


> HACK!!


Good thing you let him have it 10 years after the post, lol. Plus I haven't seen him on here in a couple of years. I hope he is ok.


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Quick Slash said:


> Tie wire is not a listed means of securement or support for any raceway ,cable or wire .


Follow the link below on how to fill out your profile. It's required. 









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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2017)

Quick Slash said:


> Tie wire is not a listed means of securement or support for any raceway ,cable or wire .


Just wait until you find out what we can use zip ties for...


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