# Motor Hookup Uncertainties



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

lorenford said:


> I'd appreciate any suggestions with this. I have been using Dayton 4K082 Farm Duty motors (from Grainger) in a dust collector. I have two that I swap back and forth as they crap out , but now they are both finished. This motor is discontinued so I replaced it with the Dayton 1YBV2, which is listed as a direct replacement by Grainger.
> 
> Our old motors were wired with the leads# 1 and 5 to black, 4 and 8 to white. This seems to be reverse direction configuration according to the label.This motor moved alot of air, probably in excess of 3,000 cfm.
> 
> ...


If the motors you are buying are direct replacements and you wire them the same way as the old ones you should not be having a problem.

Are your motors hooked up to VFD'S?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The replacement motor is a 3440 rpm motor, and the original was 3480 rpm. They're the same rpm, if you have it hooked up right.

By the way, your "new" motor is now obsoleted, and replaced with Dayton 6KHF9. How you like that? :laughing:

On your old motor, 1&5 to black and 4&8 to white is correct for clockwise rotation.

On your new motor, I assume you hooked it up the same way as the old motor at first, and that's how you know it trips the breaker, right? Right?? I guess you blew one or both caps, and maybe even messed up the centrifugal starter. Who knows. Take both caps to the motor shop and have them tested, and visually inspect the centrifugal starter points. If that don't fix you up, you learned a 500 dollar lesson. Don't wire up a motor without reading the dataplate.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> The replacement motor is a 3440 rpm motor, and the original was 3480 rpm. They're the same rpm, if you have it hooked up right.
> 
> By the way, your "new" motor is now obsoleted, and replaced with Dayton 6KHF9. How you like that? :laughing:
> 
> ...


Where do you get to look at the centrifugal starter points. 
ie where are they?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nolabama said:


> Where do you get to look at the centrifugal starter points.
> ie where are they?


Take the end bell off and you're staring at them. Only featured on 120 volt motors.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Take the end bell off and you're staring at them. Only featured on 120 volt motors.


I know about the 120 thing. Seems I have a few 120 vac motors. I am trying to get mo betta at em.


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> Take the end bell off and you're staring at them. Only featured on 120 volt motors.


Also on 240 volt single phase motors.


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## lorenford (May 9, 2012)

Well that's an odd thing about the new motor, I had to take the shaft out to have it milled, there is no contact switch at the back end. This was always the problem with the previous motors due to a dirty environment so I thought this was a good thing, maybe not.



MDShunk said:


> The replacement motor is a 3440 rpm motor, and the original was 3480 rpm. They're the same rpm, if you have it hooked up right.
> 
> By the way, your "new" motor is now obsoleted, and replaced with Dayton 6KHF9. How you like that? :laughing:
> 
> ...


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

lorenford said:


> Well that's an odd thing about the new motor, I had to take the shaft out to have it milled, there is no contact switch at the back end. This was always the problem with the previous motors due to a dirty environment so I thought this was a good thing, maybe not.


Now i am really confused.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

The "old" motor was a CSIR, and the "new" motor is a PSC. Another reason why he may well have a blown cap.


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## Inphase (May 5, 2012)

I can't help but think a tripped breaker could be the least of your worries if your using general purpose motors in what I'm guessing is a Class II location???


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## ilikepez (Mar 24, 2011)

Yeah what kind of dust are you collecting anyhow?


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## mrmike (Dec 10, 2010)

As Md stated always wire the motor by the Data plate. If it is not up to speed it sounds like it is just running on the starting winding, so check that run capacitor.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

do they have any electricians working at the facility that can help you out ?


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## retiredsparktech (Mar 8, 2011)

MDShunk said:


> The "old" motor was a CSIR, and the "new" motor is a PSC. Another reason why he may well have a blown cap.


IIRC, the Dayton farm duty motors had the large box on the side, that had start and run capacitors, as well as a current relay for the start function.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Shouldn't matter that the old motor was CISR or PSC, the wiring diagrams are supposed to be the same.

But it looks as though there is an issue with the replacement selection. The original motor may have been a 120/240V motor (it's no longer in the Grainger catalog) and if you are connecting to Neutral (white), that means you are using 120V. The new motor is 208-230V, there is no 120V option! If you are only giving it 1/2 voltage, it is going to be 1/4 of the HP rating and will run in high slip (slower speed) and high current (trip breaker).


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

lorenford said:


> Well that's an odd thing about the new motor, I had to take the shaft out to have it milled, there is no contact switch at the back end. This was always the problem with the previous motors due to a dirty environment so I thought this was a good thing, maybe not.


:no::no::no:


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## lorenford (May 9, 2012)

mrmike said:


> As Md stated always wire the motor by the Data plate. If it is not up to speed it sounds like it is just running on the starting winding, so check that run capacitor.


Thanks for all your help everybody. The machine is a dust collector for 10 workstations in a dental lab. It is on a dedicated 220 circuit. I was hoping we had done something wrong, but from what I'm reading here I beleive something on the motor was defective or damaged somehow. Possibly why they are discontinued?

I think I'm going to have to swap in the spare and send it out to the motor shop, yet another bill to pay.

We've been using SeaAlaska in Snohomish WA, they know what they're doing!


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

JRaef said:


> Shouldn't matter that the old motor was CISR or PSC, the wiring diagrams are supposed to be the same.
> 
> But it looks as though there is an issue with the replacement selection. The original motor may have been a 120/240V motor (it's no longer in the Grainger catalog) and if you are connecting to Neutral (white), that means you are using 120V. The new motor is 208-230V, there is no 120V option! If you are only giving it 1/2 voltage, it is going to be 1/4 of the HP rating and will run in high slip (slower speed) and high current (trip breaker).


He had all but told us this, good catch.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

lorenford said:


> Thanks for all your help everybody. The machine is a dust collector for 10 workstations in a dental lab. It is on a dedicated 220 circuit. I was hoping we had done something wrong, but from what I'm reading here I beleive something on the motor was defective or damaged somehow. Possibly why they are discontinued?
> 
> I think I'm going to have to swap in the spare and send it out to the motor shop, yet another bill to pay.
> 
> We've been using SeaAlaska in Snohomish WA, they know what they're doing!


I'm still concerned about you saying you connected to the white wire. Even in a 240V circuit, someone MAY have run the Neutral conductor even if you didn't need it. But then because it was there, and that old motor could be connected 120 or 240V, they connected it 120V. Now you are trying to connect a 240V replacement motor, still using the white wire, so you are only giving it 120V. In your circuit providing power to this motor, you should have a black wire, a red wire, a ground wire and MAYBE a white wire (which you apprently do). Fo a 240V circuit, you would connect that motor to the *BLACK* and *RED* wires, _*nothing to the white*_.

If you have a 240V circuit and someone used the white wire as a hot wire, i.e. you have a black, a white and a ground only, that's a bad sign that they were not professional electricians that did it because that is impermissible by code, which then brings all other issues into question as well.

Start at the breaker panel and see exactly what breaker is feeding this motor and what is coming off of it.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

lorenford said:


> Thanks for all your help everybody. The machine is a dust collector for 10 workstations in a dental lab. It is on a dedicated 220 circuit. I was hoping we had done something wrong, but from what I'm reading here I beleive something on the motor was defective or damaged somehow. Possibly why they are discontinued?
> 
> I think I'm going to have to swap in the spare and send it out to the motor shop, yet another bill to pay.
> 
> We've been using SeaAlaska in Snohomish WA, they know what they're doing!



Is this an old dust collection system?
Is it from the mid-70's or earlier? 
If so please be warned that there may be Beryllium in the dental dust collection system.
This stuff can kill you if you don't use HEPA precautions. 
Years ago it was used in the manufacture of fluorescent tubes, that was long ago and has since been banned.
But it was still used in the making of dental works. 
If you believe you have been exposed, get the blood test. It's expensive but may save you later. 
Lead poisoning is about as much fun as beryllium poisoning.


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

Wirenuting said:


> Is this an old dust collection system?
> Is it from the mid-70's or earlier?
> If so please be warned that there may be Beryllium in the dental dust collection system.
> This stuff can kill you if you don't use HEPA precautions.
> ...


Wow, did NOT know that! I've worked on dental vacuum pumps, but they had a liquid reservoir so most likely whatever was being sucked in was mixing with the water, which I know I never touched (on purpose but for other reasons...). Good to know though.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

JRaef said:


> Wow, did NOT know that! I've worked on dental vacuum pumps, but they had a liquid reservoir so most likely whatever was being sucked in was mixing with the water, which I know I never touched (on purpose but for other reasons...). Good to know though.


The liquid goop is a bio-hazard and mercury hazard but normally not a beryllium problem. 
It's the making and repair of dentures were it was mostly used. 
I found that out the hard way. LoL
If you work on a liquid collection system that has a mercury collection tank, that concept came from my coworkers & I. 
Wait till you try the gum they have coming out. 
It kills bacteria so you don't need to brush. Another invention from your friendly uncle Sam towards the military. The mad scientist's here would grab me as I would walk by and hand me some gum.. "here, try this flavor"... Mostly I would spit it out an say WTF!! :-(


edit: here is an old article that mentions the gum. This group is gone now to another location due to BRAC.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKX/is_6_75/ai_n27094405/


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## lorenford (May 9, 2012)

JRaef said:


> I'm still concerned about you saying you connected to the white wire. Even in a 240V circuit, someone MAY have run the Neutral conductor even if you didn't need it. But then because it was there, and that old motor could be connected 120 or 240V, they connected it 120V. Now you are trying to connect a 240V replacement motor, still using the white wire, so you are only giving it 120V. In your circuit providing power to this motor, you should have a black wire, a red wire, a ground wire and MAYBE a white wire (which you apprently do). Fo a 240V circuit, you would connect that motor to the *BLACK* and *RED* wires, _*nothing to the white*_.
> 
> If you have a 240V circuit and someone used the white wire as a hot wire, i.e. you have a black, a white and a ground only, that's a bad sign that they were not professional electricians that did it because that is impermissible by code, which then brings all other issues into question as well.
> 
> Start at the breaker panel and see exactly what breaker is feeding this motor and what is coming off of it.


If the red wire were present wouldn't that represent 3 phase power? We do not have that service to our building.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

lorenford said:


> If the red wire were present wouldn't that represent 3 phase power? We do not have that service to our building.


Negative, could be a and b phase of your service, hook it up 120 he says and it won't work, specifically will trip the breaker


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

lorenford said:


> If the red wire were present wouldn't that represent 3 phase power? We do not have that service to our building.


Only if there were also a blue wire.

Single Phase: 

Black and White = 120V
Black, Red and White = 240V, but White not necessary unless you also need 120V at the load (i.e. Clothes Dryer with 120V timer controls)
3 Phase:

Black, Red, Blue
Brown, Orange, Yellow (Alternate)
Or as specified by Plant Engineer if industrial
Add White if it is 4 wire Wye Service.
3 phase 240/120V Delta 4 wire ("Stinger Leg" or "High Leg")

Brown, Orange, Yellow , High leg is always Orange


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