# Fire your gray matter up for this one!



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Got a call Saturday from a previous customer. Said the lights in their kitchen go off when they turn the basement lights off.

A little history: I wired a bathroom remodel for them 3 years ago, using the existing lighting circuit for the new lights, and ran a 20a circuit as well. Last year, they lost power to one SABC which I couldn't find the break, so I just refed it ( I'm assuming there was a buried j-box somewhere ).

I roll up today, and sure enough, when they turn the switch off at the top of the basement stairs, the kitchen lights go out.

"When did it start doing this?" I asked. HO said, "Saturday morning. Now, we're doing a little remodeling down there, expanding the living space." So I'm thinking the nail-benders tried to do some electrical work and totally f-ed it up. But a quick scan of the room didn't show any work very obvious they had done. HO showed me where a 240v recep used to be, but it's been removed and the ½" EMT had been shortened into the unfinished area (same room as the panel). This pipe is a direct homerun from the panel, so I couldn't see how that would affect the situation.

So I go to the panel, and find breaker #7 tripped. I turn it back on, and nothing happens. I turn the switch at the top of the stairs on, and I get the Big Blue Zot in the panel. Breaker 7 is tripped.

I pull the cover off the panel, and locate the offending circuit. It goes down some ½" EMT and disappears into the finished part of the basement. I wonder over into the (unfinished) laundry area, and spy a j-box on the ceiling. I open it up, and find this:










Nothing earth-shattering, but it's dead. I leave the switch off, and turn the breaker on. Now I have power in this box. So I turn the breaker back off and start tracing out what NM goes where. This is what I find:












"Well, *DUH*! No _wonder_ it trips! Were the carpenters messing around in here?" I ask the HO. He says no.

So I rewire the box to this:












But, before I turn the power back on, I go up to the kitchen. Lights are still on, but the switches there are still on (kitchen lights are on circuit #11), so I toggle them and both switches turn their respective lights off and on as designed.

So I turn the power back on to circuit #7 and.......... everything works like it should. Kitchen lights, on/off, check....... basement lights, on/off, check. All breakers are on. All is good.









​ 
Now I'm baffled. I _fixed_ it, but I never discovered any reason for both why the kitchen lights (cir. 11) suddenly were tied to the basement lights (cir. 7), nor why, after how many years of this box being wired the way it had, did it never trip the breaker until this past weekend.

I really don't have 'the answer' to this one. Anyone got some insight?

​


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Got a call Saturday from a previous customer. Said the lights in their kitchen go off when they turn the basement lights off.
> 
> A little history: I wired a bathroom remodel for them 3 years ago, using the existing lighting circuit for the new lights, and ran a 20a circuit as well. Last year, they lost power to one SABC which I couldn't find the break, so I just refed it ( I'm assuming there was a buried j-box somewhere ).
> 
> ...


 


The circuit is double fed somewhere. It worked fine for years and years. During this renovation they rearranged breakers and got them on seperate phases. Now your switch became a 240 volt short rather than a working switch


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## Innovative (Jan 26, 2010)

The ONLY explanation is.......... someone f..ked with the offending j-box, no two ways around it. Or it was dbl fed and on the same phase before and no one noticed it.....
Happens to us all the time..... "worked for years, no one touched anything", then all of a sudden, some remodel work, where we were not involved and, what do you know, wires change places under wire nuts......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> The circuit is double fed somewhere. It worked fine for years and years. During this renovation they rearranged breakers and got them on seperate phases. Now your switch became a 240 volt short rather than a working switch


Circuits 7 and 11 are on the same phase. L-L would be 0 volts.



Innovative said:


> The ONLY explanation is.......... someone f..ked with the offending j-box, no two ways around it. Or it was dbl fed and on the same phase before and no one noticed it.....
> Happens to us all the time..... "worked for years, no one touched anything", then all of a sudden, some remodel work, where we were not involved and, what do you know, wires change places under wire nuts......


If the two circuits were tied together, then turning off just one breaker would not kill the power in the jbox.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Q: Was this a split-bus panel? If so, I have an idea...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> Q: Was this a split-bus panel? If so, I have an idea...


No. 20-space GE. Looked to be 5-10 years old.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

480sparky said:


> No. 20-space GE. Looked to be 5-10 years old.


I see. 

What was the SAE weight of the ball bearings?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I see.
> 
> What was the SAE weight of the ball bearings?


You lost me.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

i have no idea. probably something simple


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

i say someone opened the box and was going to re locate it or something to that nature and when the lights went out they said o crap and put it back ,,,the wrong way because the unfortunately un connected the door jammed switch leg,,,and put it back like a nail bender...white to white and black to black,,,if it was 120 v double feed and got off the same phase then a bulb would have BLOWN out....


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I see.
> 
> What was the SAE weight of the ball bearings?


 it was a standard weight that was stripped. heheheheheheheh:001_unsure:


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

Is the ground not in the diagram for a reason?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> Is the ground not in the diagram for a reason?


Not shown for clarity.


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## Voltech (Nov 30, 2009)

The information you got about what the carpenters did or didnt do. Was that 2nd hand information? Im lead to believe that you didnt get the hole story. 

There is always "Electricity is based mostly on theory, not fact" answer


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Voltech said:


> The information you got about what the carpenters did or didnt do. Was that 2nd hand information? Im lead to believe that you didnt get the hole story.
> 
> There is always "Electricity is based mostly on theory, not fact" answer


They only started yesterday. Info was from HO. All carpenters did (besides take down a couple cord-connected shop lights) is remove a dedicated 240v circuit in ½" EMT and shortened it so it landed in the unfinished area.

What was in the room they were finishing looked like they hadn't touched anything else. There wasn't much to touch to begin with.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Magic


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## MF Dagger (Dec 24, 2007)

Where did the kitchen lights tie into this?
Did the switch at the top of the stairs used to be a 3-way? Maybe the other end was in the way for them.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MF Dagger said:


> Where did the kitchen lights tie into this?....


That's the $64,000 question.




MF Dagger said:


> ....Did the switch at the top of the stairs used to be a 3-way? Maybe the other end was in the way for them.


Nope. Just 2 wires in the box. Looked like original cloth-covered NM.


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## JohnR (Apr 12, 2010)

not completely sure, but I am thinking that the idea you have a buried j-box is the answer. if perhaps this JB was in the area of the work they did do, it seems possible that there is a loose wirenut or even no wirenut and the cir #11 noodle is loose but somehow tied in with the#7 neutral in that JB .
It may be that when they bumped the ceiling, wall etc. the wire lost what contact it did have thereby ... well I know it is a little flaky but possible if the lamps in the basement are a higher /lower wattage than the kitchen lamps , think of it like a lighted swich when the main lamp is out the neon turns on.,

You did say that when you turned the basement lights OFF that the kitchen lights went out. 

By the way , circuits 7 and 11 are on the same phase, so there isn't 240. 
I would really recommend a underground wire tracer to find that JB they work great. can find even BX in the walls. JR


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## Nephi (Mar 20, 2010)

It sounds like the carpenters got ahold of the old home depot electrical 123 book. I myself have now become Lowes electrical 123 compliant and my f*ckin phones been ringin of the hook. But on a serious note your obviously not getting the whole story or the house is haunted and in that case I recommend ghost hunting 123 sold in barnes and nobles everywhere.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

Did you at least get paid? 

Seems to me the laid off unemployed guy was pretending to be an electrician.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> Did you at least get paid?......


You mean me? Sure. They filled out a blank check and left it with me as they had to run some errands.



Magnettica said:


> ........Seems to me the laid off unemployed guy was pretending to be an electrician.


You mean me? I'm a self-employed rat.


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## woodchuck2 (Sep 18, 2009)

Does that feed come directly from the panel or is there a JB somewhere else too, this may be why you have two circuits on the same phase controlling the same circuit? I also think someone was in that JB for some reason and forgot that one wire was for the switch and reinstalled the wires following color code. I have ran into this before too when the HO tries doing his own work and then brings in multiple contractors at different times to do different tasks. Things become real messy and a serious headache.


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