# We have to hire a licensed Sheet metal mechanic for bath exaust fans now.



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

The Electrical inspector told me on friday the we have to hire a licensed sheetmetal machnic and pull a sheet metal permit for a bathroom exaust fan vent.:blink::laughing:

Who knew...

What is a sheet metal permit?
*
A permit to perform sheet metal work.
*
When is a sheet metal permit required?
*
When work includes, but not limited to, manufacturing, assembling, fabrication, installing, dismantling, altering and repairing of duct or air exchange systems. Testing, adjusting and air balancing of all air handling equipment and ductwork installed during new or remodeling construction. Installation of kitchen hoods, kitchen vents, bathroom exhaust vents and fans.*

Is a special License needed?
*
Yes. The Licensee must hold a license issued by the Board of Examiners of Sheet Metal Workers.*




http://www.needhamma.gov/index.aspx?NID=2693


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I was working on a new build where we caused the mechanical inspection to fail because someone had vented an exhaust fan improperly.

I do think there should be the option for an exception, though. Sort of like how plumbers are often allowed to connect a water heater.

-John


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

We have always had to have the HVAC contractor vent fans on permitted jobs.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

That is a load of crap if it is incidental to the trade here it can be done. We can do our own vents, dryer, exhaust fans ect. And hvac guys get to do thermostats and hook up it remove power to their units. Electricians still supply the main feeds.

Very dumb rule they have there harry and a big bump on price I imagine as well.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

It is necessary to point out the irony of licensed electricians complaining other trades require licensing and permits.

Would you expect a sheet metal guy to wire a bathroom fan? I mean it is as easy as venting it. 


BTW, Big John, can you point me to a written exception for plumbers to install a water heater?

I am not sure if there is one or just how it goes here in MA.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> We have always had to have the HVAC contractor vent fans on permitted jobs.


On commercial work here in MA there has always been an HVAC contractor doing the venting and it is inspected.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

BBQ said:


> It is necessary to point out the irony of licensed electricians complaining other trades require licensing and permits.
> 
> Would you expect a sheet metal guy to wire a bathroom fan? I mean it is as easy as venting it.
> 
> ...




Here they can get a reconnect license. Or so I was told.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

jwjrw said:


> Here they can get a reconnect license. Or so I was told.


I have always been told HVAC guys, oil burner guys etc, can work on the load side of the equipments disconnecting means.

But I have never seen anything official on that just hearsay.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It is necessary to point out the irony of licensed electricians complaining other trades require licensing and permits.
> 
> Would you expect a sheet metal guy to wire a bathroom fan? I mean it is as easy as venting it.
> 
> ...


First I believe all trades should be licensed. 
Second I believe if it is incidental to the job the primary trade can do it.
And third hot water tanks here are the plumbers province as well. If its electric it could require an electrician and plumber trade.
But either way the venting would be incidental to the job no hvac guy required.


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## Mr Rewire (Jan 15, 2011)

I just ask the steward whos trade it is. :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> First I believe all trades should be licensed.
> Second I believe if it is incidental to the job the primary trade can do it.



So the licensing would be worthless because all trades would be doing all trades work.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BBQ said:


> So the licensing would be worthless because all trades would be doing all trades work.


That is an ignorant and union type statement. 
If you don't understand the difference between incidental work and running a new circuit sorry for you. If an hvac guy has to call an electrician everytime they replace a furnace or a/c or an electrician needs to call a hvac guy everytime they do a bath fan to unhook and reinstall duct that would be stupid and costly.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> ...Can you point me to a written exception for plumbers to install a water heater?


 I was speaking generally. I know some places allow it, I don't know if that's acceptable in MA.

Seeing as how poor exhaust venting can cause a lot of condensation problems, I don't object to it being controlled. But I still think we should have the option of getting the limited license.

-John


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Here the HVAC guys have to get a low voltage licence, but if they install a t-stat wire there is no inspection required. If I do it, it has to be inspected?:001_huh:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

This came about because of a fire that killed 2 Boston fire fighters in 2007.

 The state Legislature created the board in response to a 2007 fire at a Chinese restaurant in West Roxbury that killed two Boston firefighters. Faulty duct work was found to have caused the fire.


Read more: http://www.enterprisenews.com/archi...-regulating-sheet-metal-workers#ixzz1TmlomaUi​


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

backstay said:


> Here the HVAC guys have to get a low voltage licence, but if they install a t-stat wire there is no inspection required. If I do it, it has to be inspected?:001_huh:


Here all the hook ups and t stat are covered by their hvac license. Only the main runs have to be done by us.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

BBQ said:


> It is necessary to point out the irony of licensed electricians complaining other trades require licensing and permits.
> 
> Would you expect a sheet metal guy to wire a bathroom fan? I mean it is as easy as venting it.


Yeah, can you imagine if you were wiring a new house and you show up and the HVAC guy was there and he was spooling out a coil of romex and said he was wiring all his euipment himself? Yeah, I'm sure nobody here would complain about that.  :laughing:


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> This came about because of a fire that killed 2 Boston fire fighters in 2007.
> 
> The state Legislature created the board in response to a 2007 fire at a Chinese restaurant in West Roxbury that killed two Boston firefighters. Faulty duct work was found to have caused the fire.
> 
> ...


Only on commercial jobs then Harry? Here hvac licensing covers duct work, we have no sheetmetal license although the unions may have a specific classification.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Big John said:


> I was speaking generally. I know some places allow it, I don't know if that's acceptable in MA.
> 
> Seeing as how poor exhaust venting can cause a lot of condensation problems, I don't object to it being controlled. But I still think we should have the option of getting the limited license.
> 
> -John


I don't think getting that license will be easy.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterm...&f=dpl_boards_sm_cmr_271cmr300&csid=Eoca#3.01


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Only on commercial jobs then Harry? Here hvac licensing covers duct work, we have no sheetmetal license although the unions may have a specific classification.


Nope the Electrical inspector told me residential as well the conversation started when he was inspecting a bath remodel that that i needed a rough inspection on.

He let it go but said that it will be enforced in the future


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> That is an ignorant and union type statement.


What?

Union statement? From me????? Surely you jest. 




> If you don't understand the difference between incidental work and running a new circuit sorry for you.


Please explain it to me and who gets to decide where the bondries of 'incidental work' are. 



> If an hvac guy has to call an electrician everytime they replace a furnace or a/c or an electrician needs to call a hvac guy everytime they do a bath fan to unhook and reinstall duct that *would be stupid and costly.*


Or it would be correct and what should be done.

Both statements are just opinions and mean as much or as little as the other.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, can you imagine if you were wiring a new house and you show up and the HVAC guy was there and he was spooling out a coil of romex and said he was wiring all his euipment himself? Yeah, I'm sure nobody here would complain about that.  :laughing:


As long as i get paid for him to do the wiring thats cool with me..:laughing:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I've always had to do the bath fan, range hood, and clothes dryer ducting because nobody else did, and it was generally considered the electrician's job. Here lately, the tinners are starting to volunteer to do it, and I think that's great. I'm happy to hand that off to them.

If it becomes an actual requirement in my area, that's going to be one expensive bath fan. Adding or replacing a bath fan is a really popular service call/small job. The price will easily double, or more, considering the administration that will be required to get the duct guy in there at the same time as the work to install and wire the fan, so we're both in and out in the same appointment (which is the courteous thing). Roof ducting these things is sometimes required, so that might mean three trades to install a bath fan.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> As long as i get paid for him to do the wiring thats cool with me..:laughing:



Based on the electrical work I've seen done by local hvac guys, I wouldn't trust them to do anything more than run the t-stat cable. :no:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I've always had to do the bath fan, range hood, and clothes dryer ducting because nobody else did, and it was generally considered the electrician's job.


Same here, although I admit I don't know any of the code rules for venting. :001_huh:


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Nope the Electrical inspector told me residential as well the conversation started when he was inspecting a bath remodel that that i needed a rough inspection on.
> 
> He let it go but said that it will be enforced in the future


That sucks I just seen the commercial mentioned in the article that's why I asked. I would verify its residential too. That could make a exhaust very costly on resi jobs.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> That sucks I just seen the commercial mentioned in the article that's why I asked. I would verify its residential too. That could make a exhaust very costly on resi jobs.


You got that right. Add an exhaust fan in an old house bathroom, and if you have to go through the roof... electrician, sheet metal mechanic, and roofer... That 50-dollar exhaust fan will easily turn into a $1000 job.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Peter D said:


> Same here, although I admit I don't know any of the code rules for venting. :001_huh:


I think the most important one to remember is for clothes dryers... must be metal, assembled in the direction of flow, and NO protruding fasteners like tek screws or rivets. Just bang it together and foil tape it. There are length limitations too, and deducts for every ell. The IRC spells out the


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm pretty sure the rules in my area are exactly the same as Harry's but inspectors seem to give some leeway for venting bath fans and such, which is nice.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What?
> 
> Union statement? From me????? Surely you jest.
> 
> ...


Okay I might have gone too far using the union word. And you know what incidental too the job is. Even union shops have overlapping areas of work or incidental work as its called that do to common skills and costs allows other trades to work across lines on minor items that they are capable of performing if needed to complete the job within their trade.

That is not a free pass to do anything they want. Common sense and ethics must be used when doing a job to determine when you need another trade.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

I wonder who brought that idea up to committee and how much money was involved since it gives more work to another trade that might not be on the job otherwise..

Here the HVAC and burner guys have a "restricted license".. but they run circuits and change panels and tell the HO they are "licensed"..


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Okay I might have gone too far using the union word. And you know what incidental too the job is. Even union shops have overlapping areas of work or incidental work as its called that do to common skills and costs allows other trades to work across lines on minor items that they are capable of performing if needed to complete the job within their trade.
> 
> That is not a free pass to do anything they want. Common sense and ethics must be used when doing a job to determine when you need another trade.


The incidental work definition varies from job to job. I clearly remember welding up a transformer bracket to hang the transformer on the wall in 93-94 and getting hell from the ironworker faction. On other jobs, nobody cared. 

I see that roofers and glaziers are fighting over "their share" of solar work too.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The incidental work definition varies from job to job. I clearly remember welding up a transformer bracket to hang the transformer on the wall in 93-94 and getting hell from the ironworker faction. On other jobs, nobody cared.
> 
> I see that roofers and glaziers are fighting over "their share" of solar work too.


In union shops it is very defined and disputes are resolved by members of the trades involved in most shops. If working in union jobs they should have book defining tasks and incidental work you can get. Welding is one of those things widely disputed. I generally do all my own welding unless it is a more than a minor weld, bracket , unistrut, box mounting all I will do.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> In union shops it is very defined and disputes are resolved by members of the trades involved in mist shops. If working in union jobs they should have book defining tasks and incidental work you can get.


You would think so but I see the Carpenters and Labors regularly battling it out over who gets to unload the trucks delivering supplies to the job.:laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> The incidental work definition varies from job to job. I clearly remember welding up a transformer bracket to hang the transformer on the wall in 93-94 and getting hell from the ironworker faction. On other jobs, nobody cared.


I was on a mixed job and the boss came over and said 'You can weld right?

I say sure, he says meet him on the roof. I go up there and find that the iron workers were using their crane to swing a generator onto the roof for us. My boss wanted me to weld it down to the steel that was in place for it.

I ask him, 'Where are we getting the welding equipment?' 

I don't know how but he also was able to get the Ironworkers to lend me what I needed to do the job. Mask, leads, rods etc.

Like you said it depends on the job.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

BBQ said:


> You would think so but I see the Carpenters and Labors regularly battling it out over who gets to unload the trucks delivering supplies to the job.:laughing:


Come on now I said common sense. That's why electricians are on the job to help the lesser trades with understanding how things should be.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Based on the electrical work I've seen done by local hvac guys, I wouldn't trust them to do anything more than run the t-stat cable. :no:


I agree they can really make a mess out something simple..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I was on a mixed job and the boss came over and said 'You can weld right?
> 
> I say sure, he says meet him on the roof. I go up there and find that the iron workers were using their crane to swing a generator onto the roof for us. My boss wanted me to weld it down to the steel that was in place for it.
> 
> ...


Thats pretty cool sounds like the Iron workers were too busy to do it..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Read this about the law they want a sheet metal apprentice to work 8,000 hours in the field but it has to be over no less than 5 years.:blink:

Last time i checked a work year is 2,000 hours.



> .5 if applying after February 19, 2011, furnish documentary proof satisfactory to the Board of having initiated and completed, within the ten years preceding application, experience as a licensed apprentice totaling a minimum of 8000 hours of sheet metal work over a period of no less than five years. All apprentice experience must be under the direct supervision of a holder of a Class J‑1 (Journeyperson) or Class M‑1 (Master) license.


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## AFOREMA1 (Nov 23, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Read this about the law they want a sheet metal apprentice to work 8,000 hours in the field but it has to be over no less than 5 years.:blink:
> 
> Last time i checked a work year is 2,000 hours.


Almost all apprenticeships are 5 years Harry in most every trade and definitely in the unions. Think its a money saver but who knows.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Some towns around here now require a building permit to do electrical work..:blink::blink:

You have to submit WC and liability cert.. and property tax bill from job site..

One of those "revenue makers" that towns love to dream up..


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

AFOREMA1 said:


> Almost all apprenticeships are 5 years Harry in most every trade and definitely in the unions. Think its a money saver but who knows.


Yeah it is still over 4 years for Electricians here but IDK what the union in Boston does i have only heard the it is 5 years and 10,000 hours but i do not know for sure.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

B4T said:


> Some towns around here now require a building permit to do electrical work..:blink::blink:
> 
> You have to submit WC and liability cert.. and property tax bill from job site..
> 
> One of those "revenue makers" that towns love to dream up..


Yup we have to show liability insurance to pull permits and if we have Employees then we have to show WC as well.


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## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

HARRY304E said:


> Nope the Electrical inspector told me residential as well the conversation started when he was inspecting a bath remodel that that i needed a rough inspection on.
> 
> He let it go but said that it will be enforced in the future


HE LET IT GO???????????????????,
See this is WTF is wrong in the first place. Lucky for you but why even create BY-LAWS and
CODES if these sorry a** inspectors pick and choose their way through it. 

I'm not going to get an inspection on a WH change out just to have a douche bag
Inspector to half*** his way through it. 

Not only is it a waste of money but also the principle of the matter. 

Just goes to show that the bureaucracy was created to support the bureaucracy. 

That low life piece of sh*t inspector should be HAMMERED with ridicule.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I believe, in NC plumbers can get a special license which allows them to hook up water heaters. They don't generally run the wires just add a disco when they install a new water heater.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

jhall.sparky said:


> HE LET IT GO???????????????????,
> See this is WTF is wrong in the first place. Lucky for you but why even create BY-LAWS and
> CODES if these sorry a** inspectors pick and choose their way through it.
> 
> ...


The law just took effect feb 19 2011 so they are cutting us some slack since the board has not made a determination on this issue yet. 

The fact is it is hard to enforce a law like this if the Electricians in this state have not been notified yet about this.

The Electrical inspector is a licensed Master Electrician him self and he is very good at his job i have not had one problem at all with him.

He has no authority to inspect sheet metal work , that must be done by a licensed sheet metal mechanic inspector just like Plumbing must be inspected by the licensed plumbing inspector.

He was simply telling about the new law..:thumbsup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Just wait until the government institutes an excavation license and requires you to hire a licensed trench digger. It won't be long


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## coolright (Sep 29, 2009)

What I understand when I got my MA. sheetmetal license is that if you touch any type of sheetmetal you will need to have a license. A permit needs to be pulled for anything and everything including a bath fan. The AHJ is the building inspector on any/all metal work.

As for oil techs per a letter from the Electrician board in MA which is on DPS web site under oil boiler section. We can change like for like parts (boilers and equipment) and do the work our self. If new install or upgrade then we can not wire the equipment.


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## bauler (Jan 2, 2008)

Geeze even California isn't this anal. I always wonder where the inspector is when a something goes wrong, after all isn't this why there is inspections? No matter what trade it is, regardless of inspection, it should be put in right. Now you have 3 trades blaming each other for whats wrong.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Just wait until the government institutes an excavation license and requires you to hire a licensed trench digger. It won't be long


I am sure their thinking about it..:laughing:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

coolright said:


> What I understand when I got my MA. sheetmetal license is that if you touch any type of sheetmetal you will need to have a license. A permit needs to be pulled for anything and everything including a bath fan. The AHJ is the building inspector on any/all metal work.
> 
> As for oil techs per a letter from the Electrician board in MA which is on DPS web site under oil boiler section. We can change like for like parts (boilers and equipment) and do the work our self. If new install or upgrade then we can not wire the equipment.


So it is the building inspector and not a sheetmetal inspector?

Thats good to know.

Sounds like they screwed the sheetmetal guys by not creating a sheetmetal inspectors job.:no:

coolright Welcome to the forum...:laughing::thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

bauler said:


> Geeze even California isn't this anal. I always wonder where the inspector is when a something goes wrong, after all isn't this why there is inspections? No matter what trade it is, regardless of inspection, it should be put in right. Now you have 3 trades blaming each other for whats wrong.


Yup well you should have a licensed carpenter drive the screws to support the fan..:laughing::laughing:


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