# Service Upgrades



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Trimix-leccy said:


> Here in the UK a service upgrade is almost unheard of [well it is to me anyway:001_huh:]
> 
> 
> I keep reading of 200Amp upgrades from 100Amp
> ...


 
Any licensed electrician can do the work.

The (poco) power supply company does the disconnect and reconnect for the most part.

The meter pan can be supplied by the poco or the EC, depends on the area, the poco usually regulates what you install for the pan, so it's compatable with their meter.

Any fuses would be out on the poles before the transformers so that's on the poco side.

As far as the breaker panel the brand is up to the EC for the most part.

The riser to the mast head is supplied by the EC and the drop from the pole is on the Poco.

Take a look at a typical poco site:http://www.pseg.com/customer/business/new_service/pdf/RequirementsElecSvc2005.pdf

That may fill in some blanks.


----------



## Trimix-leccy (Dec 4, 2007)

Many thanks, that has answered all my questions. I was just curious as it almost never happens here.:thumbsup:


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Trimix-leccy said:


> Many thanks, that has answered all my questions. I was just curious as it almost never happens here.:thumbsup:


Anytime brother, glad it helped you out.
Most of the time in a residence it comes down to adding an addition with more air conditioning, lighting, a pool, etc.


----------



## a-bulb (Feb 13, 2008)

Hey random, I'm surprised to hear that your poco does the cut and reconnect. In my area (Fairfield county, ct). Conneticut Light and power and United illuminating both require the electrical contractor performing the work to cut and reconnect (120/240V services only). You must They won't even come out to pull the fuse. If you need the drop moved thats a diffrent story, they come out. I once. OK maybe more then once moved a drop. This was when I worked for someone and now I look back and wonder why he would take the risk of letting me do this. I would NEVER ask my guy to do this. Here is the CL&P hand book go to section 2 Residential cut and reconnect policy.http://www.cl-p.com/clpcommon/PDFs/companyinfo/publications/yellowbook.pdf


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Service upgrades are EXTREMELY common here in the States. Unless the house is really old than many times the wires that the power company supply to the house are the same wires that they would have used for a larger service anyway. So if an EC doesn't pull a permit, they'll just upgrade the main panel and pull the meter and run new wires from the meter to the panel. If they do pull a permit, here in Charlotte the poco will cut power to the house and reconnect after the work is complete, which is same day.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Just did a 100 to 200 upgrade today:

Before:





















After:


----------



## a-bulb (Feb 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Just did a 100 to 200 upgrade today:
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


Your poco doesn't require bypass meters?


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

a-bulb said:


> Your poco doesn't require bypass meters?


If the meter socket has a horn bypass, they allow that. 400a and up requires a lever bypass.


----------



## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

480sparky said:


> If the meter socket has a horn bypass, they allow that. 400a and up requires a lever bypass.


Don't even need that here. As long as you follow the 6 disconnect rule you're good to go. Even on 800A no bypass.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

a-bulb said:


> Hey random, I'm surprised to hear that your poco does the cut and reconnect. In my area (Fairfield county, ct). Conneticut Light and power and United illuminating both require the electrical contractor performing the work to cut and reconnect (120/240V services only). You must They won't even come out to pull the fuse. If you need the drop moved thats a diffrent story, they come out. I once. OK maybe more then once moved a drop. This was when I worked for someone and now I look back and wonder why he would take the risk of letting me do this. I would NEVER ask my guy to do this. Here is the CL&P hand book go to section 2 Residential cut and reconnect policy.http://www.cl-p.com/clpcommon/PDFs/companyinfo/publications/yellowbook.pdf


 
I'm surprised that your poco doesn't do the same for you all.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Just did a 100 to 200 upgrade today:


 
Are there many meters inside the house like that out your way?


----------



## Podagrower (Mar 16, 2008)

Meter base in the basement? That means moving all the plants out once a month for the meter reader, or having to add him to the payroll.
Probably cheaper to move it outside.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> Are there many meters inside the house like that out your way?


It was common to do this from the 40s into the late 70s. By then, the POCOs were wising up to the fact they were spending a ton of money on labor just to read the meters.

So they started requiring them to be outside. As a stop-gap measure, some meters got replaced with special meters that can be read through an RF signal to a passing meter-reading truck. I've heard some can send info over a phone line as well.

Another method I've seen is a plastic card that the HO can hang in their window or doorway. It has dials on it just like the meter, with plastic pointers (think of the signs you see on a business; "Will return at....."). HO just duplicates the meter dials on the card and hangs it where the meter reader can see it.

But there's still plenty like this one. POCO usually guesstimates the usage, and does an actual reading once, maybe twice a year depending on the HO. They extrapolate future use based on years past. Slowly, they're getting removed from basements when I do upgrades like this.



Podagrower said:


> Meter base in the basement? That means moving all the plants out once a month for the meter reader, or having to add him to the payroll.
> Probably cheaper to move it outside.


I've never actually seen a.... an....um, er...... let's say 'grow operation'. But I've done updates like this that I see (or smell) evidence that it has been done.

One upgrade I did had an 8x10 room in the basement. 8 fluorescent lamps and 6 keylesses. New HO wanted all but one fluorescent removed, and couldn't imagine why the previous owner needed that much light. I aksed the new HO to take a deep breath through her nose. She did, and her nose wrinkled. I asked, "What do you smell?" She said "Something, but I don't know what...."

The look on her face was absolutely pricess when I deadpanned "Cannibis."


----------



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

The indoor meter situation is the same here.
Usually when there is a service change or upgrade, the meter is moved outside.

My parent's house (1973) has indoor meters. The meter reader would come once a month. Wouldn't have been such a big deal for my family - Mom was a stay-at-home - except for our dog. Hated the meter readers for some reason. Gender or race didn't matter, she would go crazy barking and growling. We would have to put her outside before the person would show up.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

JohnJ0906 said:


> The indoor meter situation is the same here.
> Usually when there is a service change or upgrade, the meter is moved outside.
> 
> My parent's house (1973) has indoor meters. The meter reader would come once a month. Wouldn't have been such a big deal for my family - Mom was a stay-at-home - except for our dog. Hated the meter readers for some reason. Gender or race didn't matter, she would go crazy barking and growling. We would have to put her outside before the person would show up.


 
I have never seen that in a house up this way. It is common in many commerical jobs, just not houses.


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

a-bulb said:


> Your poco doesn't require bypass meters?


How did you convince a homeowner to upgrade what looks to be a decent (maybe old) service, when I can't get a homeowner to upgrade his 150 Amp service, with about 50 poles of breakers in the main panel, a 20 space sub panel (full), and adding a $200,000 pool and pool house? I just hear 'It works fine now, and we're not going to use a lot of lights in the pool house'.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

heel600 said:


> How did you convince a homeowner to upgrade what looks to be a decent (maybe old) service, when I can't get a homeowner to upgrade his 150 Amp service, with about 50 poles of breakers in the main panel, a 20 space sub panel (full), and adding a $200,000 pool and pool house? I just hear 'It works fine now, and we're not going to use a lot of lights in the pool house'.


Do a service calculation.


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Do a service calculation.


 
I wasn't really asking how, it was more rhetorical.

Service calc or not, some people just don't get it. If they can't see the problem "I never had a problem with the electric before", it doesn't exist to them, until the 50 year old breaker that was never excersized doesn't trip, and their house burns down.

And when I suggested a 400A service, for $4200, they thought that was a lot. $200,000 for a pool, and $4200 to possibly prevent a fire was a lot.

That being said, I wouldn't do the pool/pool house unless they upgraded.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

heel600 said:


> I wasn't really asking how, it was more rhetorical.
> 
> Service calc or not, some people just don't get it. If they can't see the problem "I never had a problem with the electric before", it doesn't exist to them, until the 50 year old breaker that was never excersized doesn't trip, and their house burns down.
> 
> ...


 
Do you really think that, while using their pool/poolhouse, they'll also be using the woodshop, the craftroom, the home theatre, the steamroom, the steam shower...


----------



## heel600 (Oct 31, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you really think that, while using their pool/poolhouse, they'll also be using the woodshop, the craftroom, the home theatre, the steamroom, the steam shower...


There was not going to be any steam shower, etc.

But with 3 AC compressors, electric oven, electric cooktop, and a big house, that 150 Amps is used up. Forgetting about the code calcs, you could see all 3 ACs running, the oven/cooktop on, and all 3 pool pumps and air blower on. They might even be using some lights too! Now imagine if the 2 sub-zeros were running.

I really can't count on homeowners 'probably' not using certain appliances at the same time. It's like my old boss... We used to do a lot of apartment upgrades, and we notched little holes in the sheetrock ceiling to fish the wires, and just stapled the NM to the bottom of the joist. The wire was mudded into the sheetock, only 1/4 inch from the surface. "Why would a tenant hang something in the middle of the room? They would hang something (plant, artsy thingy) in the corner" Seems like a big gamble, and it has pretty serious consiquensces. Not the kind of work I want to do.


----------



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Do you really think that, while using their pool/poolhouse, they'll also be using the woodshop, the craftroom, the home theatre, the steamroom, the steam shower...


Lessee here... Mom's in the pool, Dad's in the woodshop, one daughter in the craft room, son & other kids watching a movie in the theater, another offspring using the steamroom.....

Yep. I could see it happening.


----------



## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

I am not suprised with that in case someone will cuss one way or other.

The fastest way to raise red flag before hevey up is instat tankless waterheater [ mega kilowatt sizes typically 18 ~24 KW ] 
so far once i got the biggest one i did see on resdentail side is 36 KW sonvagunner thing that automatcailly reqired min of 400 amp service for this one and POCO is not too thrilled with that one.

Merci,Marc


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Trimix-leccy said:


> Here in the UK a service upgrade is almost unheard of [well it is to me anyway:001_huh:]
> 
> Having said that, I am presently designing and ugrading a 415V 200KVA service to 415V 1000KVa
> 
> ...


Many service upgrades are just plain overkill. Often, the upgrade is prompted by the need for a larger panel, not a substantial increase in the overall load. And in the consumer's mind, they've already decided they need a larger service, and so call and ask for one. 

Sometimes, this is prompted by the tripping or the multiple tripping and resetting of a 100a main breaker. But a 100a main in the US will trip if either leg is overloaded, and rarely was it because both legs were overloaded. The culprit here is often a large btu 120v portable a/c, or a number of smaller a/c's that just happen to end up favoring one leg of the 240v service over the other. 

And then there are those who are beefing up their homes in preperation for a sale, and feel that a brandy-new 200a service and panel will more than pay for itself at the time the house sells.


----------



## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> And then there are those who are beefing up their homes in preperation for a sale, and feel that a brandy-new 200a service and panel will more than pay for itself at the time the house sells.


 
A good friend of mine does two of those a week most of the time. He often gets called by the listing realtor.


----------



## Idaho Abe (Nov 28, 2007)

In my jurisdiction I inspect about 20 every month. These are normally upgrades because of increased load on the system. But also many are replacing fused panel with circuit breakers because some insurance companies surcharge for fuses. Also we have a great number of FPE panels the are being changed out because of insurance surcharging.


----------



## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

It's common in 84,Pa.15330 to have a 320 amp 240/120 volt service,With two separate 200 Amp 40 circuit panels.I see they are making an 84 circuit panel.


----------

