# Lots of MC home runs - hack?



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

You're thinking like an employee and not like a contractor. MC is a huge time and labor savor, hence why it's used. It's practically all that's used here in New England (as we have AFC headquartered here and manufacturing right in our backyard) and in most parts of the country now. As for it being "hack", nobody but electricians really care or even know what an electrical room looks like.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MC is cheaper and faster when it comes to separate neutrals for circuits for us, so that's what we use. If it's 3 phase and I can do full boats, emt and stranded is cheaper. That's what matters when it comes to competitive bid work.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> You're thinking like an employee and not like a contractor. MC is a huge time and labor savor, hence why it's used. It's practically all that's used here in New England (as we have AFC headquartered here and manufacturing right in our backyard) and in most parts of the country now. As for it being "hack", nobody but electricians really care or even know what an electrical room looks like.


I prefer Southwire MC armorlite over all the MC I've tried, though the blue steel sheath AFC ain't bad. The AFC aluminum with the yellow labels on the sheath sucks and is greasy as hell. F that stuff.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> If it's 3 phase and I can do full boats, emt and stranded is cheaper.


Cheaper than 4/C MC cable? :001_huh: I find that hard to believe.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> Cheaper than 4/C MC cable? :001_huh: I find that hard to believe.


Never used that stuff. No one around here stocks it so we gotta run what we can get.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> I prefer Southwire MC armorlite over all the MC I've tried, though the blue steel sheath AFC ain't bad. The AFC aluminum with the yellow labels on the sheath sucks and is greasy as hell. F that stuff.


The stuff with the yellow labels is Encore brand, I think.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Never used that stuff. No one around here stocks it so we gotta run what we can get.


You don't have Northeast Distributors or any decent suppliers near you?


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

I LOVE MC! :thumbup:

Who cares if it looks messy, it works great and its cheap. This may not be what you want to hear, but doing electrical work and not making any money at it (whether as an employee or contractor) , it about as worthless as a flat tire . If MC is what makes your boss some money, then do it and do it good.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

MTW said:


> You don't have Northeast Distributors or any decent suppliers near you?


Northeast doesn't deliver this far north. The 2 suppliers we have within driving distance don't stock it, and have never tried getting it from Rexel. They probably have it, just never tried it. Might have to check the stuff out though.


----------



## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

Going_Commando said:


> Never used that stuff. No one around here stocks it so we gotta run what we can get.


I just feel kind of silly when I go to our local supplier and I am getting a mile of MC and they run out of 1000' spools because no one else uses that much of it. How many thousands of feet of extra ground wire am I running?

I will take these posts to heart, as I said, my boss is great and I am really happy where I am at. It just seems silly to drop 15-20 MCs in the panel, it makes for a messy ground bar. I should also mention that he refuses to use two-pole breakers even though 12/3s are sharing a neutral. After getting a pretty nasty neutral shock, I find this rather shady myself.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Going_Commando said:


> Northeast doesn't deliver this far north. The 2 suppliers we have within driving distance don't stock it, and have never tried getting it from Rexel. They probably have it, just never tried it. Might have to check the stuff out though.


Once you try it, you'll never go back. BBQ did a retail store in a mall once and used tons of it. Ran it out of the panels to 4 11/16" boxes scattered around the store where he split it off. Major time and labor savings over pipe homeruns, or individual MC homeruns.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

nbb said:


> I just feel kind of silly when I go to our local supplier and I am getting a mile of MC and they run out of 1000' spools because no one else uses that much of it. How many thousands of feet of extra ground wire am I running?
> 
> I will take these posts to heart, as I said, my boss is great and I am really happy where I am at. It just seems silly to drop 15-20 MCs in the panel, it makes for a messy ground bar. I should also mention that he refuses to use two-pole breakers even though 12/3s are sharing a neutral. After getting a pretty nasty neutral shock, I find this rather shady myself.


You should see your average medium to large commercial job site around here. You could probably fill half of a roll-off dumpster with empty 1000' MC cable reels.


----------



## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

MTW said:


> Once you try it, you'll never go back. BBQ did a retail store in a mall once and used tons of it. Ran it out of the panels to 4 11/16" boxes scattered around the store where he split it off. Major time and labor savings over pipe homeruns, or individual MC homeruns.


I am also in an area where 12/4 is somewhat rare. Agree on the yellow label stuff ( we get it from Lowe's sometimes in a pinch) being bad to work with. Our supplier mainly gives us stuff from "Northern Cable ", which is Canadian made and although the jacket can be a pain (I just use dikes to cut and anti-short) it holds up well. 

Just as well since one of our jobs turned out to have a delta high leg, which was not marked by the landlord's electricians...


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

Sucks for all you guys. Pipe is still king here and mc slingers don't get much action. I could care less how much money mc makes the lowball ECs out there because they never got a chance to bid against us. The reason you think it looks like shít is because it does look like shít, mc always looks like garbage because it takes zero mechanical ability to install it so it's not usually electricians installing it. 
But with all that being said if I worked at a mc shop I would do what I'm paid to do and be happy to have a job, and all the while be putting out resumes


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

ponyboy said:


> Sucks for all you guys. Pipe is still king here and mc slingers don't get much action. I could care less how much money mc makes the lowball ECs out there because they never got a chance to bid against us. The reason you think it looks like shít is because it does look like shít, mc always looks like garbage because it takes zero mechanical ability to install it so it's not usually electricians installing it.
> But with all that being said if I worked at a mc shop I would do what I'm paid to do and be happy to have a job, and all the while be putting out resumes


:sleep1::sleep1:


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

MC is, was and has been king for quite a while. Plenty of pipe & wire companies out here too, but they dont stand a chance when they bid against any MC contractors :thumbsup:


----------



## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Sucks for all you guys. Pipe is still king here and mc slingers don't get much action. I could care less how much money mc makes the lowball ECs out there because they never got a chance to bid against us. The reason you think it looks like shít is because it does look like shít, mc always looks like garbage because it takes zero mechanical ability to install it so it's not usually electricians installing it.
> But with all that being said if I worked at a mc shop I would do what I'm paid to do and be happy to have a job, and all the while be putting out resumes


We have two scabbers working for us, and the phrase "MC monkey" often comes up. I try to make it safe, and honestly, with all the extra grounds, that part is easy. I am getting into the trade a bit old, but I'm sure my ibew grandpa would be spinning in his grave if he saw my working conditions. Times have changed, and cheap ass corporations who have zero respect for the electricity are now the norm. They have big insurance policies and could not care less about fires. I would rather learn the trade right and put fire way out of my mind, but I am coming in to this at a time when margins are more important than safety.


----------



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Its a shame that contractors get tunnel vision when it comes to MC. Seems to me that most that use it do so from panel to device blindly without much thought and could benefit from a hybrid approach of pipe and cable.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

MHElectric said:


> MC is, was and has been king for quite a while. Plenty of pipe & wire companies out here too, but they dont stand a chance when they bid against any MC contractors :thumbsup:


Good for you, I'm glad it makes you money. It must be a regional thing because your kind doesn't really exist around here


----------



## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

butcher733 said:


> Its a shame that contractors get tunnel vision when it comes to MC. Seems to me that most that use it do so from panel to device blindly without much thought and could benefit from a hybrid approach of pipe and cable.


If the niggle was solid versus stranded I would be willing to buck up and pull solid in 1" EMT, where I would be able to avoid derating. My boss is adamant on the MC though.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

OK, shame on me. I should have spotted this trolling a mile away. This is amateurish sub-Cletis trolling, at best.


----------



## nbb (Jul 12, 2014)

MTW said:


> OK, shame on me. I should have spotted this trolling a mile away. This is amateurish sub-Cletis trolling, at best.


Not sure if that was directed at me, but I was actually trying to relay my work experience to this forum. If this is another forum that drops the T word willy-nilly then shame on me. I will keep on trucking.

If not, my apologies, and thanks for the info. Either way, I guess I am out of my element for not having enough posts, good to know that clique mentality is prevalent on jobsites and forums as well...


----------



## Jupe Blue (Aug 18, 2008)

Here's a pic from a job I worked last June. 3 circuit MCs (black, red, blue, with individual neutrals striped). All went to 84 ckt panels.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Some packs of wire basket cable tray go a long way for dropping from the grid to tops of the panels.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Jupe Blue said:


> Here's a pic from a job I worked last June. 3 circuit MCs (black, red, blue, with individual neutrals striped). All went to 84 ckt panels.


My opinion....total hack. Looks terrible.

Around here we would take pictures of that to show our apprentices how NOT to do it.

Most of our jobs have a max length of 10 or 20 feet of BX/MC in the spec. Just enough to get down inside a wall. Sometimes we will run it longer but it will be hidden, never into a panel like that.

No offence, you would get laughed at if you ran wire surface like that. 

No double pole breakers? Is that not code in the US? Have you ever seen an inspector on your job?

Again.....my opinion


----------



## butcher733 (Aug 4, 2012)

Jupe Blue said:


> Here's a pic from a job I worked last June. 3 circuit MCs (black, red, blue, with individual neutrals striped). All went to 84 ckt panels.


Where is the labor savings in that?


----------



## cdnelectrician (Mar 14, 2008)

I would be curious to know if any voltage drop calculations are done on these BX jobs. A lot of specs I see these days call for a maximum of 2 percent VD (this usually gets bent a bit to 3 percent) but in no way can I imagine running 10\4 BX in place of conduit to suit the VD requirements.


----------



## Locknutz (Sep 7, 2012)

I ran 3 ckts. With 12/6 cable in 20 minutes from the closet down the hall with two turns 100+ feet to their location and tied it up. No way you are running pipe and pulling wire in that time. 

If it's in a ceiling or in a wall cable is where it's at. Exposed you run pipe and make it look good.

All things have there place don't over think it


----------



## MHElectric (Oct 14, 2011)

cdnelectrician said:


> I would be curious to know if any voltage drop calculations are done on these BX jobs. A lot of specs I see these days call for a maximum of 2 percent VD (this usually gets bent a bit to 3 percent) but in no way can I imagine running 10\4 BX in place of conduit to suit the VD requirements.


There is a whole world of jobs outside the new construction arena, where there's no prints, no specs, and no rules other than to pass your inspections and make it all work. This is where alot of the MC jobs are.

But its moving into the new construction world too. Pipe and wire jobs just cost way more than doing it in MC. Heck, there's alot of new & old commercial jobs around here that have been wired in Romex. 

Im rambling now. :laughing: To finally answer your question, I think the NEC specifies not to have a VD past 5%, cant remember though.


Locknutz said:


> All things have there place don't over think it


Very true.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

eddy current said:


> My opinion....total hack. Looks terrible.
> 
> Around here we would take pictures of that to show our apprentices how NOT to do it.
> 
> ...


 
We can technically feed 240 volt loads with single pole breakers on handle ties from the way the code is written. 


Either way MWBC are supposed to now have handle ties. How does it work in Canada?


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

meadow said:


> We can technically feed 240 volt loads with single pole breakers on handle ties from the way the code is written.
> 
> 
> Either way MWBC are supposed to now have handle ties. How does it work in Canada?


We are allowed to handle tie SP breakers as well. In the case of MWBC, no handle tie required except in the case of a split receptacle(one circuit for top half and another for the bottom half). 

That said the word on the street is that the 2015 CEC will be bringing AFCIs to every general use residential circuit so that will probably drive down the use of MWBCs in housing.


----------



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

we have had clients that requested a clean looking electric room - put a trough at the ceiling and run pipe to it, then mc above clg.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Nbb, welcome to ET.

At best only four #12 circuits can be run in a conduit. If they all go to the same place conduit may be the way to go.

If they scatter in different directions after 20 ft. you haven't gained anything. 

Troubleshooting JBs because neutrals got shared GFCIs or AFCI's trip etc. are a PIA. So MC cable is a first choice by ECs if being run by in-experienced help.

I too like to put an auxiliary gutter in an attic space above the panel and feed it with a bunch of short conduit, before the rock goes up. If you need another circuit later on you will be very happy you did.


----------



## tates1882 (Sep 3, 2010)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Nbb, welcome to ET.
> 
> At best only four #12 circuits can be run in a conduit. If they all go to the same place conduit may be the way to go.
> 
> ...


Care to clarify the above statement in red? Im not sure what conduit your using or what wire type but with #12 thhn in 1/2" emt your can have 9 circuits, 3- 4 wire mwbc's and still have them on a 20 amp ocpd.


----------



## ponyboy (Nov 18, 2012)

tates1882 said:


> Care to clarify the above statement in red? Im not sure what conduit your using or what wire type but with #12 thhn in 1/2" emt your can have 9 circuits, 3- 4 wire mwbc's and still have them on a 20 amp ocpd.


I think you'd be over on pipe fill in that scenario


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

Tates, I was refering to derating #12 THHN on a 20A breaker.

70% of 30 = 21A for four ccc.

No matter how many wires will fit in the conduit.

BTW, IMO the rule should be adjusted for conduit size.


----------



## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

I run 3 full boats of #12 all of the time in a 3/4" EMT. 

9 ccc's, so no real derating (when not feeding mostly fluorescent lighting)


----------



## 1.21gigawatts (Jun 22, 2013)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Tates, I was refering to derating #12 THHN on a 20A breaker.
> 
> 70% of 30 = 21A for four ccc.
> 
> ...



70% is only used when ccc's are 7-9. And even with this reduction in conductor ampacity your average branch circuit would not be loaded beyond 16 amps.


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

He needs two fast pipe slingers.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

1.21gigawatts said:


> 70% is only used when ccc's are 7-9. And even with this reduction in conductor ampacity your average branch circuit would not be loaded beyond 16 amps.


True which is why 4 circuits (8 cccs of #12 THHN) is the magic number in conduit, as I stated in post #34

Conduit size or load doesn't matter. The largest OCP is 20A, for typ. branch circuits.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> Tates, I was refering to derating #12 THHN on a 20A breaker. 70% of 30 = 21A for four ccc. No matter how many wires will fit in the conduit. BTW, IMO the rule should be adjusted for conduit size.


So the 90 degree column can be used for derating purposes. Your allowed to use 30 amps for number 12 instead of 25??


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> So the 90 degree column can be used for derating purposes. Your allowed to use 30 amps for number 12 instead of 25??


No but it can be used for derating purposes.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Shockdoc said:


> He needs two fast pipe slingers.


I don't care if you're the fastest pipe slinger in the world. I'll still smoke you with MC cable any day of the week.


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> No but it can be used for derating purposes.


yeah that's what I meant for derating purposes only. What article is that under?


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

electricjoenj said:


> yeah that's what i meant for derating purposes only. What article is that under?


310.15


----------



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

A piece of cable tray with cover from ceiling to panel makes an exposed panel and mc bearable...


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Semi-Ret Electrician said:


> True which is why 4 circuits (8 cccs of #12 THHN) is the magic number in conduit, as I stated in post #34
> 
> Conduit size or load doesn't matter. The largest OCP is 20A, for typ. branch circuits.


Shared neutrals are the trick. 9 circuits is more betterer


----------



## ToddS (Sep 4, 2014)

The easiest way to make it look neat is bridal rings with tie-wraps. Still doesn't look all that nice because it's MC but that's the way I do it when taking MC into a panel. 


Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


----------



## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

ToddS said:


> The easiest way to make it look neat is bridal rings with tie-wraps. Still doesn't look all that nice because it's MC but that's the way I do it when taking MC into a panel. Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


I don't like that method because there's inspectors that will call you on bundling. Ill put up strut and use the strut straps for MC


----------



## fisstech (Feb 2, 2013)

wildleg said:


> we have had clients that requested a clean looking electric room - put a trough at the ceiling and run pipe to it, then mc above clg.


that's how we do it at work. get the best of both worlds here.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

This is the way I always have done it. Realistically, it does not cost much more in labour. Only extra is one jb and 2 lengths of pipe.
Not only does it look 100% better this way, it also allows the next guy to easily add a circuit. :thumbsup:









I always label my neutrals as well. Makes future changes a lot easier.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Bolt on aluminum buss panels make me giggle.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Bolt on aluminum buss panels make me giggle.


Look like aluminum in the pic but its not. Cuttler Hammer - Eaton panel. Here is a better pic where you can see the shiny steel buss


----------



## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Now I have said time and time again we do mostly residential and I could use a lesson in pipe bending. On any commercial job we run 3/4 EMT from the panels through the ceiling and take MC everywhere after that. Anything exposed we run conduit.


----------



## ibew26 (Oct 8, 2014)

I like to take 1 2" conduit (depending on amount of conducters) and set a trough above the ceiling. I then bring the MC into that and instead of having a rats nest of splices, use terminal strips. Takes a little longer but looks like a professional installation.


----------



## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

ibew26 said:


> I like to take 1 2" conduit (depending on amount of conducters) and set a trough above the ceiling. I then bring the MC into that and instead of having a rats nest of splices, use terminal strips. Takes a little longer but looks like a professional installation.


Do u put a grnd bar in the trough? And run a 6or4 to the panel?

Makes for alot less wires in the pipes.


----------



## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

butcher733 said:


> Its a shame that contractors get tunnel vision when it comes to MC. Seems to me that most that use it do so from panel to device blindly without much thought and could benefit from a hybrid approach of pipe and cable.


I dont have any problem with MC as long as its secured neatly
but Im also a pipe runner myself 
Im sure that there are benefits to MC but in some cases its not very practical.
you need to use whats required for the given job whether it MC, EMT, or rigid conduit
the same goes with raceways and trunking.
residential, commercial, and industrial are all animals of a different color so to speak
and each has specific requirements to be considered and methods that need to be followed.

as far as calling it a hack i dont think so!


----------



## 3DDesign (Oct 25, 2014)

We use MC in concealed walls and ceilings and sometimes when the ceiling height is above 20 ft because it's hard to see. Anytime the work is exposed we use conduit.


----------



## Semi-Ret Electrician (Nov 10, 2011)

ibew26 said:


> I like to take 1 2" conduit (depending on amount of conducters) and set a trough above the ceiling. I then bring the MC into that and instead of having a rats nest of splices, use terminal strips. Takes a little longer but looks like a professional installation.


I do the same thing with several runs of 3/4", which allows four 20A THHN circuits in each.

I also install a ground bus in this gutter, so I don't have to clutter up the panel below. This is also real handy if existing branch circuits are AL, because the bus is rated AL/CU.

Previous Code also allowed a remote neutral bus in the gutter, but AFCI's have made this less of an advantage.


----------



## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

It is only cheaper on labor install . But is convenient in a lot of situations in commercial, & some industrial.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

BBQ would say not so.


----------



## bullmike (Jun 13, 2011)

The NEC is there for the insurance companies. As for MC it is definitely convenient in some jobs the price is relative to the total job.


----------



## Sparky18018 (Nov 9, 2014)

*pipe from panel to ceiling*

we run pipe from panel to ceiling the j-box out and run mc.


----------



## shocksystems (Apr 25, 2009)

ibew26 said:


> I like to take 1 2" conduit (depending on amount of conducters) and set a trough above the ceiling. I then bring the MC into that and instead of having a rats nest of splices, use terminal strips. Takes a little longer but looks like a professional installation.


Terminal strips are a great idea. Surprised I have not seen that done in a trough before. Must look very neat.

Cheers!

Jim


----------



## ChunkyDrummer (Sep 16, 2014)

We pipe our home runs to common boxes in the ceiling then MC Cable to devices. 99% of the buildings we work in do not allow MC home runs.


----------

