# Torque on bolts lugs & terminations



## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well on each project we must torque every breaker termination be it a set screw 100 amp or smaller breaker or on a larger breaker lets say up to a 1000 amp lug type hex or allen type lugs . 

After its torqued then the inspector is called and most just ask for a spot check of some lugs and there happy you pass . They check our test date on torque wrench and everyone is fine .


Now there is this new inspector that needs to see all lugs he needs to hear the klick on each and every lug . 
were kinda talking lots and lotttttssss of lugs .



I dont have a problem doing that even if its a waste of our time !! but if you re -torque on aluminum lugs once its done and then you come back and tighten it again they sometimes strip out not all the time just one or two out of say 50 lugs this is a common problem which can cost us lots of time replacen lugs .

Just wondering what you guys do at your inspections and if you have the same problem ? Also any input on torque after a bolt or lug is torqued what about re tightening the same is this ok or is this a issue . Best to yas


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

If the expector wants to hear the click on each and every lug, don't torque it to the specs the first time. If the lug requires, say, 250 in-pounds, torque it to 175 or 200. Then, when the expector comes along, you 'finish the job' and torque it to specs.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

nick, we're getting into this same thing in the next few weeks. AND we're using al wire. i dont know the solution. loosen , then re-torque????:001_huh: dont know if thats a good thing. we'll see.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well 480 yes good point like that!! 

We had no clue to what this inspector was trying to prove but i guess hes by the book kinda guy meaning about his job . 


Paul ill send him your way next week good luck .This lug snapping or strippin out has been around for years buts it not a everyday kinda thing its just on them special times when you get a bad lug ya they do make bad lugs.

But you cant explain that to the snot nose youngster inspector he is a county official and my crew says he looks like a FBI agent or maybe secret service has a ear plug cell and a badge on his belt . take care


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

if the torque wrench clicked the first time you tightened it, shouldn't it click right away when you go to tighten it at the same torque ? I wouldn't worry too much about the inspector, after he starts getting behind in his work he'll stop checking every lug.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

How do you get anything accomplished working like that?

An inspector checks torque on every lug? It seems like an inspector would have to follow me around all day long or I would have to go back to the work I'd already done, open it up and redo it for his satisfaction.

That's a waste of resources. If I can't properly operate a screwdriver/wrench, maybe I should be doing something else.:jester:

Inspecting maybe :laughing:


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

wildleg said:


> if the torque wrench clicked the first time you tightened it, shouldn't it click right away when you go to tighten it at the same torque ? I wouldn't worry too much about the inspector, after he starts getting behind in his work he'll stop checking every lug.



Well yes it should but i believe most torque applied to a lug meaning a lug with wire in it is a lot different then a bolt and nut ?
Meaning theres a lot of error in this process kinda not real accurate or precise !! 

When compressing that soft cooper in a lug it does not stay tight like temperature to me can change coppers shape. But i really believe its the lug there not harden steel there just threaded by metal & aluminum once you stress them thats it i think some are not mechanically sound .

Meaning the quality control at the plant was not checked that day . Ill bet if i sent our inspector up to that plant that makes the lugs he would striaghten out the whole mess !! Well we dont usally have a inspector who test every lug we do our work like you do this is a new to us !! Best to ya


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

good point , nick. torque on bolts/ nuts is completely different than wire, BUT the torque charts we use that are on the gear are for the hardware, NOT the wire. somehow my boss figured that 750 al should be torqed at 41 ft. lbs. ( ? ) too tight !!!! but he IS the boss. oh well.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

paul d. said:


> good point , nick. torque on bolts/ nuts is completely different than wire, BUT the torque charts we use that are on the gear are for the hardware, NOT the wire. somehow my boss figured that 750 al should be torqed at 41 ft. lbs. ( ? ) too tight !!!! but he IS the boss. oh well.


Paul , the torque we use is found on the breaker front its shows the wire size to torque for each wire & lug size that applies to that breaker . 

And most switchboards have a chart on the gear or in the books that ship with ther gear .Take care Paul ill send the inspector up to ya he will show ya !!http://www.ilsco.com/newweb/ilscohome.nsf/Web+Pages/Torque+Information?OpenDocument


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

In my opinion, it is wrong to "test" the torque on a fastener, partly because the tolerance of torque wrenches vary and because the manufacturer (as far as I know) doesn't require re-torquing.

I think the foreman or job boss should talk to the inspector and find out where it is instructed to re-torque. One technique is to "seal" the threads with paint (we used to use nail polish!) when the fastener is torqued. An unbroken seal means that fastener hasn't been touched after it was torqued.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

480sparky said:


> If the expector wants to hear the click on each and every lug, don't torque it to the specs the first time. If the lug requires, say, 250 in-pounds, torque it to 175 or 200. Then, when the expector comes along, you 'finish the job' and torque it to specs.


 
Again.. sparky has a great solution to the problem. Now if he could only fix the economy :thumbup:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Again.. sparky has a great solution to the problem. Now if he could only fix the economy :thumbup:


Use said torques wrenches on the noggins of gubbermint folk, as well as the greedy top bananas of the big corporations.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

You wont damage by re-torguing but they move some due to cold flow. This is expected and taken into account by the ANSI torque specs, your inspector is wasting your time and has no clue what he is talking about.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've never had an Inspector want to see me torque anything. This guy is wasting your time and his own. Does the Inspector have much work to do or is he just looking for a place to hang out?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Is the contract T&M or fixed bid?

IF T&M: Do they want observed torque readings? If so, do observed torque readings. 
IF FIXED BID: Did they specify observed torque readings? If so, do torque readings. If not, get a change order, they need to pay added labor costs that were not in the original contract.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Is the contract T&M or fixed bid?......


Inspectors don't get involved in the bidding portion of a job.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Inspectors don't get involved in the bidding portion of a job.


Maybe I am wrong but I assumed that it was not a residential project do to the 1000 amp lugs. Very rarely will I see a municipal inspector on an industrial project. The Inspectors for the acceptance and commissioning are normal from the client.

Bye the way 480sparky, I liked your old signature better, saved me a lot of time when I did not have to think it.:laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I assumed that it was not a residential project do to the 1000 amp lugs. Very rarely will I see a municipal inspector on an industrial project. The Inspectors for the acceptance and commissioning are normal from the client.


Inspectors here do nothing of the sort. They look for Code compliance, and nothing more.



drsparky said:


> Bye the way 480sparky, I liked your old signature better, saved me a lot of time when I did not have to think it.:laughing:


Which one? I change them so often. I suffer from CRS.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Inspector means one who inspects. This could be AHJ, OSHA, quality control, the Client, a home owner, the Engineering firm, trade group like the American Bakers Council.... 


The one about being a know nothing non union........:whistling2:


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I assumed that it was not a residential project do to the 1000 amp lugs. Very rarely will I see a municipal inspector on an industrial project. The Inspectors for the acceptance and commissioning are normal from the client.
> 
> Bye the way 480sparky, I liked your old signature better, saved me a lot of time when I did not have to think it.:laughing:


Well we kinda only do commercial or industrial work and the only projects we dont have a electrical inspector inspect our work is when we do a power plant everything else is a city or county inspection .

But all our jobs its in contract /spec meaning we must show data & torque on paper turned into engineer .

All jobs megg readings wire & equipment turned into engineer .

All jobs breaker tests vd & current turned into engineer . 

All jobs ground rod FOP tests turned into engineer. 

All jobs high pot test cable turned into engineer .

The only test that has to be observed or witness by a inspector is ground rod test and a torque test most inspectors dont care its just this new wisenheimer inspector .usally they look at our work and sign it off .

Today the electrical inspectors read the spec book and go by the engineers rules of inspecting the job they review the plans and scope of each job this is in the last two or three years . what kinda projects do you do ? take care be safe


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

nick said:


> what kinda projects do you do ?
> 
> Mostly paper mills and wood products on this end of the state. When I lived in Ohio it was automobile manufacturing plants, foundries, and corn processors. About 3 years ago I did spend 11 months down your way in southern Florida with a “service” truck, mostly drove around troubleshooting motor controls, PLC‘s, and building automation systems, great work but I hated the weather and traffic, give me 4’ snow anytime. I still have my old security badge from Florida Power and Light, they were a big client, I had a small office in the Juno Beach headquarters complex.
> 
> Chuck


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Inspector means one who inspects. This could be AHJ, OSHA, quality control, the Client, a home owner, the Engineering firm, trade group like the American Bakers Council....
> 
> 
> The one about being a know nothing non union........:whistling2:


So which inspector is it the OP is referring to, Mr. know-it-all union man?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I didn't read all this, but I hoped someone talked about "cold flow". 

A lug torqued today will necessarily measure less in a week from now due to cold flow of the conductor material. What the inspector is requiring could even be considered as doing damage to the conductor. If somebody wants to make sure that a lug didn't get missed, that torque check should happen immediately after the initial torque.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> So which inspector is it the OP is referring to, Mr. know-it-all union man?


He was referring to the Government type, I was wrong. I’m not a “know-it-all”, I am here to read the posts and learn something. I think your posts have been insightful, well thought out and I've enjoyed your humorous comments. I found your old signature very funny and thought you placed it there in the spirit of good fun. I don’t classify electricians by union or non-union. That being said I do find something about you very troubling, I am a true follower of Bucky Badger and love to see the Hawkeye’s soundly thumped.:jester:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> He was referring to the Government type, I was wrong. I’m not a “know-it-all”, I am here to read the posts and learn something. I think your posts have been insightful, well thought out and I've enjoyed your humorous comments. I found your old signature very funny and thought you placed it there in the spirit of good fun. I don’t classify electricians by union or non-union. That being said I do find something about you very troubling, I am a true follower of Bucky Badger and love to see the Hawkeye’s soundly thumped.:jester:


I am deeply troubled. Who is Bucky Badger and what does he have to do with Hawkeye?

And which old signature are you referring to? I change them often.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

I see an easy solution to the "inspector wanting to hear the click" situation. Any job that we do, if the inspector wants to see test reading, "hear click" etc. Then I give him a schedule of the day and time that we will be performing such task and then it is up to him to be there when we do it the first and only time (unless he pays for us to do it all again.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I'm not sure an inspection has ever required me to perform work, beyond maybe getting a ladder off the truck. If they guy wants to check torque, I'd probably respond with something like "knock yourself out". I've seen more than one inspector wrangle the conductors around just to visually check that they weren't loose.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Many inspections in my area consist of nothing more than a cash filled envelope changing hands.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

drsparky said:


> Mostly paper mills and wood products on this end of the state. When I lived in Ohio it was automobile manufacturing plants, foundries, and corn processors. About 3 years ago I did spend 11 months down your way in southern Florida with a “service” truck, mostly drove around troubleshooting motor controls, PLC‘s, and building automation systems, great work but I hated the weather and traffic, give me 4’ snow anytime. I still have my old security badge from Florida Power and Light, they were a big client, I had a small office in the Juno Beach headquarters complex.
> 
> Chuck


Well Chuck my next door neighbor works for Progress Energy which was florida power years back it changed its name did you mean Progress Energy . We do some odd jobs here Orange Fruit packing plants , Pepsi plants, Milk plants T G LEE , Generator & Tubine plants , Power Plants and the one i like the best FAT BONES AND GREASE PLANTs . LD PLANT we do a little industrial sometimes lots of fun . take care be safe


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I am deeply troubled. Who is Bucky Badger and what does he have to do with Hawkeye?
> 
> And which old signature are you referring to? I change them often.


Bucky Badger is University of Wisconsin’s mascot, Iowa’s big ten rival. Just forget it, another failed attempt at humor.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Bucky Badger is University of Wisconsin’s mascot, Iowa’s big ten rival. Just forget it, another failed attempt at humor.


 
Oh, I see. I'm not a sports fan.


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## waco (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree with MDShunk: "I didn't read all this, but I hoped someone talked about "cold flow"."

I think any inspector who wants to see torque should stand there while the torque is going on.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

Well lets talk cold flow whats its all about give me a lesson ? never heard of this i assume its shrinkage of metal to metal ? tell me more interested .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nick said:


> Well lets talk cold flow whats its all about give me a lesson ? never heard of this i assume its shrinkage of metal to metal ? tell me more interested .


As an aluminum conductor is squeezed in an electrical joint, over time the aluminum will conform to the joint, essentially flowing out of the joint, causing the pressure holding the joint together to relax over time. This problem is addressed in industrial and high-voltage applications by using special spring washers ("Belleville washers") in the joint that are actually small springs that maintain joint pressure as the aluminum flows.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

480sparky said:


> As an aluminum conductor is squeezed in an electrical joint, over time the aluminum will conform to the joint, essentially flowing out of the joint, causing the pressure holding the joint together to relax over time. This problem is addressed in industrial and high-voltage applications by using special spring washers ("Belleville washers") in the joint that are actually small springs that maintain joint pressure as the aluminum flows.


Well ok we do use belleville washers on our bolts on the nut side attached to the buss with lugs , now what the inspector is wanting us to re torque is the wire termination itself the lug to wire part ? how does cold flow effect this on re torque ?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

nick said:


> Well ok we do use belleville washers on our bolts on the nut side attached to the buss with lugs , now what the inspector is wanting us to re torque is the wire termination itself the lug to wire part ? how does cold flow effect this on re torque ?


I'll sorta try to put it in simple terms... 

Say a manufacturer wants the "forever" torque of a connection to be 75 pounds, they'll specify an initial torque of something like 100 pounds. Why? Because they know that the conductor will continue to "squish" (cold flow) over the weeks after the initial torque and the torque value will lessen. They've got it calculated out pretty well already when they spec the initial torque, because they know exactly what the final torque will be when the conductor is done with its squishing over the time to come. If you retorque to the initial torque value, you're just digging deeper into the conductor... deeper than the manufacturer ever intended.

EDIT.... I think that NETA and PEARL both have retorque values of certain connections in their specs. Going completely off memory here, I think that PEARL's is a certain pound value and NETA's is a percentage of the specified initial torque.


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## nick (Feb 14, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> EDIT.... I think that NETA and PEARL both have retorque values of certain connections in their specs. Going completely off memory here, I think that PEARL's is a certain pound value and NETA's is a percentage of the specified initial torque.



Thanks what i need now i need proof on paper which ill fine it .Good MD and 480 and waco too . Ill show this inspector thats its not acceptable and he may back off a little . wer going do it in good taste we dont want to ruffle feathers !! Ill let my project manager explain it to him hes a good bull s------ then iam out of the picture . take care ill let you know what gos.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If you want something super-official and scholarly, you can probably scare up an IEEE white paper on that. 

If the inspector is concerned about a loose connection, he would be better served by asking to see DLRO results for every connection rather than make you guys retorque.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think retorquing inside of a week or two is going to make any diference. If the inspector is hèll-bent on hearing the wrench go click, then just tighten them up enough to hold them until his sorry àss gets there and do the final torque then.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I'll sorta try to put it in simple terms...
> 
> Say a manufacturer wants the "forever" torque of a connection to be 75 pounds, they'll specify an initial torque of something like 100 pounds. Why? Because they know that the conductor will continue to "squish" (cold flow) over the weeks after the initial torque and the torque value will lessen. They've got it calculated out pretty well already when they spec the initial torque, because they know exactly what the final torque will be when the conductor is done with its squishing over the time to come. If you retorque to the initial torque value, you're just digging deeper into the conductor... deeper than the manufacturer ever intended.
> 
> EDIT.... I think that NETA and PEARL both have retorque values of certain connections in their specs. Going completely off memory here, I think that PEARL's is a certain pound value and NETA's is a percentage of the specified initial torque.


I mentioned cold flow about 30 posts back, but your explanation is very good. As far as torque specs, NETA and PEARL both follow the same specs. 
http://www.pearl1.org/standards/Tab...tandard Bus Connection Bolt Torque Values.pdf

I am actually at the PEARL conference right now and I think I am only 1 of 3 people that are members of both orgs.


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Bucky Badger is University of Wisconsin’s mascot, Iowa’s big ten rival. Just forget it, another failed attempt at humor.


I thought it was funny, but Goldy will whip them both.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Zog said:


> I thought it was funny, but Goldy will whip them both.


Rumor is that Goldy dropped out of school, changed his name to Digger and is now irritating anyone trying to watch NASCAR on Fox.:jester:


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## Zog (Apr 15, 2009)

drsparky said:


> Rumor is that Goldy dropped out of school, changed his name to Digger and is now irritating anyone trying to watch NASCAR on Fox.:jester:


I hate digger


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

In Palo Alto, CA the damn inspectors want to "hear the click." The last one I did, the Inspector even set the torque wrench and torque screw driver himself and handed them back to me. I always thought it was crazy, and I asked them why once. "There were a lot of fires cause by improperly torqued lugs." I know its possible, but I never heard in the news around here about it, like it was an epidemic or something. Just another reason to justify their existance. The funniest thing is it seems like thats all they care about. Torque the lugs and they are out of there...


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## artfvilla75 (6 mo ago)

paul d. said:


> good point , nick. torque on bolts/ nuts is completely different than wire, BUT the torque charts we use that are on the gear are for the hardware, NOT the wire. somehow my boss figured that 750 al should be torqed at 41 ft. lbs. ( ? ) too tight !!!! but he IS the boss. oh well.


 That is Exactly why hes your boss, you know nothing. seems to me you shouldn't even be the one doin the work if you dont even understand that


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## artfvilla75 (6 mo ago)

william1978 said:


> I've never had an Inspector want to see me torque anything. This guy is wasting your time and his own. Does the Inspector have much work to do or is he just looking for a place to hang out?


I inspect them everyday, your just not working on anything worthwhile


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## artfvilla75 (6 mo ago)

paul d. said:


> good point , nick. torque on bolts/ nuts is completely different than wire, BUT the torque charts we use that are on the gear are for the hardware, NOT the wire. somehow my boss figured that 750 al should be torqed at 41 ft. lbs. ( ? ) too tight !!!! but he IS the boss. oh well.


Your boss was right ,You shouldn't even be in there terminating anything if you think that's to tight.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

artfvilla75 said:


> Your boss was right ,You shouldn't even be in there terminating anything if you think that's to tight.


This is a 13 year old zombie thread.


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

Wirenuting said:


> This is a 13 year old zombie thread.


Only to be somehow searched out and replied to with 3 bashing posts, by a new member. Smh.


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