# Sticky  Teen Helper Electrocuted in Attic



## chicken steve

~cs~


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## wcord

Sucks! Can't imagine how the JM feels:icon_cry:
Crawl spaces are even more dangerous. Either space is a b##ch to get a person out of when something goes wrong.


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## dronai

That is really sad. It's usually the helpers who get to go up into the attics. It says that the main power should be shut off before going up there. How many guys would actually do that ?, 0...... Poor kid, and the JW must feel horrible


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## Black Dog

I think they use 220 volts there as well, also sounds like the JW used a volt tick instead of a multy meter to check the voltage...God Speed to the Kid..


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## guest

Since news links tend to expire: 



> *Company cops $38,000 fine over teen employee's electrocution*
> 
> By Hayley Roman
> Updated Thu at 10:26pmThu 5 Feb 2015, 10:26pm
> * Photo:* Jayden Zappelli was working in the roof space when he was electrocuted. (Supplied: Zappelli family)
> *Related Story:* Electrocution of teen trade assistant in Bunbury roof was preventable, court hears
> *Map: * Bunbury 6230
> 
> A company in Bunbury, south of Perth, has been fined $38,000 over the electrocution of 18-year-old employee Jayden Zappelli.
> Mr Zappelli was a trade assistant with JCW Electrical in February 2013 when he was working at a property with licensed electrician Dale Francis Mortley.
> Mortley, a qualified electrician, was installing a chandelier in the home and changing several light switches.
> The court heard Mr Zappelli offered to go up into the roof and pull the electrical cable through the hole in the ceiling.
> After the cable was passed up to Mr Zappelli, the electrical tape around the end of the wires loosened and became conductive, which proved fatal when Mr Zappelli came into contact with a copper pipe in the roof space.
> Fire crews pulled the young man, who was unconscious, from inside the roof of the home and he was later pronounced dead.
> The company was charged with failing to provide a safe working environment and last year pleaded guilty.
> Mortley also entered guilty pleas to charges of causing the serious death of a person and not taking reasonable care to prevent a person's death.
> During sentencing at Bunbury Magistrates Court this morning, Mortley was fined $6,800.
> *Mortley made 'erroneous' decisions, was 'careless'*
> 
> This is a case where Mr Mortley was careless, rather than blind to the risks.
> 
> Magistrate Dianne Scaddan​
> Magistrate Dianne Scaddan said Mortley made a number of "erroneous" decisions, including using a voltmeter, rather than a multimeter, to check if the circuit was isolated.
> "He used [the multimeter] at the premises ... although sadly not at the crucial time," she said.
> "This is a case where Mr Mortley was careless rather than blind to the risks."
> Ms Scaddan noted Mortley underwent counselling over the incident and was remorseful.
> She also remarked JCW Electrical did not have a formal safety system at the time of the incident but had purchased a safety package and started implementing it.
> Ms Scaddan said both parties had "moderate" culpability and the industry practice for working in roof spaces was "risky".
> * Photo:* Authorities at the Bunbury home where Jayden Zappelli, 18, was electrocuted. (ABC News)
> 
> She said Mr Zappelli's parents had high hopes for his future.
> "No doubt the deceased's death has had a profound impact on his sister, his friends," Ms Scaddan said.
> "The value of the deceased's life is not measured by the fine handed down in this court."
> The courtroom was filled with people, including one man who had Mr Zappelli's name tattooed on his ankle.
> The family told media outside the court they did not wish to comment at this stage.
> JCW Electrical and Mortley were also ordered to pay court costs.
> *Stark reminder of care needed: Worksafe*
> 
> In a statement, Worksafe Commissioner Lex McCulloch said the case was a stark reminder of what could go wrong.
> Electrical work should not under any circumstances be performed by assistants or anyone else who is not properly trained and qualified to undertake the work safely.
> 
> Worksafe Commissioner Lex McCulloch​
> "This tragic incident should serve as a reminder of the extreme importance of checking and re-checking that the circuits being worked on are indeed not live," he said.
> "When working with or around electrical circuits, any assumption could be a fatal one.
> "The case also sends a clear message to employers that electrical work should not, under any circumstances, be performed by assistants or anyone else who is not properly trained and qualified to undertake the work safely.
> "Further, we need to be very conscious that working in roof spaces presents a host of risks and strict safe systems of work need to be in place, especially when electricity is also involved.
> "In most cases, there is just no reason not to turn off the mains before entering a roof space.
> "This is something that applies to many trades such as pest controllers, insulation installers, air conditioning technicians and so on, not just electricians."
> *Topics:* courts-and-trials, workplace, bunbury-6230
> First posted Thu at 7:49pm


A tragic case indeed...condolences to the young man's family and friends.

I have always hated working in crawlspaces and attics because of this kind of danger.


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## Ink&Brass

That sucks. I'm sure we're all too guilty of just trusting the tick tester sometimes.


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## Black Dog

mxslick said:


> Since news links tend to expire:
> 
> 
> 
> A tragic case indeed...condolences to the young man's family and friends.
> 
> I have always hated working in crawlspaces and attics because of this kind of danger.


This is worthy of a Sticky...


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## Jlarson

That's how I've always installed chandeliers, blindly jabbing an energized cable up through the ceiling to the helper. :blink:


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## five.five-six

Why would you even make up the switch side of the cable before you ran it to the fixture? I's like looking down the barrel of a gun and pulling the trigger to see if it was loaded. 

RIP young man, prayers said for his family. 


At first I was wondering why the fined the JW.... Then I read the whole article, seriously dude, I don't think fines were enough... What were you thinking?


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## Safari

its sad that it happened.this shows the simple things we ignore while in this trade about safety come to haunt us.


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## hardworkingstiff

1st year in the trade, I was the crawl space guy and we were installing electric baseboard heat. I'm dragging around a metal cased drill to drill holes up through the floor. Hot, sweaty, came around to the bath room area. Set the drill up where I needed to drill (damn copper water pipe was right there in the way, so I had to lean on it to get where I wanted to drill). Pulled the trigger and I got one of the most severe shocks of me life, I could not let go of the trigger and screamed like a little girl. Lucky for me the plumber had been working in there and dug a small hole in the area close to me so although I could not let go of the drill (muscle spasms) I was able to just roll my body over into the depression (breaking contact with the copper pipe) and stopping the shocking.

I will admit it scared the crap out of me. 

This was just before GFCIs came out. I was sure glad to see GFCIs.


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## Black Dog

hardworkingstiff said:


> 1st year in the trade, I was the crawl space guy and we were installing electric baseboard heat. I'm dragging around a metal cased drill to drill holes up through the floor. Hot, sweaty, came around to the bath room area. Set the drill up where I needed to drill (damn copper water pipe was right there in the way, so I had to lean on it to get where I wanted to drill). Pulled the trigger and I got one of the most severe shocks of me life, I could not let go of the trigger and screamed like a little girl. Lucky for me the plumber had been working in there and dug a small hole in the area close to me so although I could not let go of the drill (muscle spasms) I was able to just roll my body over into the depression (breaking contact with the copper pipe) and stopping the shocking.
> 
> I will admit it scared the crap out of me.
> 
> This was just before GFCIs came out. I was sure glad to see GFCIs.


1993 Colchester VT: We were building a Costco's: I was working in the tire shop running pipe and the roof was not on yet poring rain, I grabbed the Milwaukee Sawzall off of the floor and got blasted big-time because someone cut off the rubber boot that covered the metal casing, I had trouble letting go of it so I wound up and threw it and it spiked off the floor right next to me. It was plugged into 200 feet of extension cords, one of the cords was missing the ground prong and the cords were plugged into a GFCI.

I tested the GFCI at it's location, push the button it trips, use a plug GFCI tester it trips, tried the plug tester at the end of the cords, it would not trip.

So it seems like it was just too far away for the GFCI to work....


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## chicken steve

I'm one of the lucky ones w/ similar stories fellas.  

As an aside , there was at one time a push to have all electrical workers hold a basic cpr cert.

How does that set with the rest of you?

~CS~


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## Black Dog

chicken steve said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones w/ similar stories fellas.
> 
> As an aside , there was at one time a push to have all electrical workers hold a basic cpr cert.
> 
> How does that set with the rest of you?
> 
> ~CS~


Here in 2015 we have to do one hell of a lot better----No one should be getting killed like this...:no:

Why did the FF have to go up and get the kid? The J-Man should have pulled the kid out of there.......:no:


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## 99cents

Black Dog said:


> Here in 2015 we have to do one hell of a lot better----No one should be getting killed like this...:no:
> 
> Why did the FF have to go up and get the kid? The J-Man should have pulled the kid out of there.......:no:


Pretty tough to pull a limp body out of an attic by yourself and, if he was still alive, you run the danger of injuring him further by trying to move him. Imagine an eight foot drop out of an attic hatch after being electrocuted. It's possible that emergency services said to leave him there.


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## 99cents

chicken steve said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones w/ similar stories fellas.
> 
> As an aside , there was at one time a push to have all electrical workers hold a basic cpr cert.
> 
> How does that set with the rest of you?
> 
> ~CS~


I have no problems with that at all. It could be taught at school during apprenticeship with mandatory renewals after that. Basic first aid is a requirement with some employers already.


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## Aegis

The tape came off as he was pulling it? If I'm understanding this correctly, why the hell were they pulling a live wire through the attic?


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## hardworkingstiff

Black Dog said:


> It was plugged into 200 feet of extension cords, one of the cords was *missing the ground prong* and the cords were plugged into a GFCI.
> 
> I tested the GFCI at it's location, push the button it trips, use a plug GFCI tester it trips, tried the plug tester at the end of the cords, it would not trip.
> 
> So it seems like it was just too far away for the GFCI to work....


You don't think that missing ground prong was the culprit to the tester not working?

I would think the GFCI would have caught the leakage through your body though.

Strange.


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## Sparky J

Black Dog said:


> I tested the GFCI at it's location, push the button it trips, use a plug GFCI tester it trips, tried the plug tester at the end of the cords, it would not trip.
> 
> So it seems like it was just too far away for the GFCI to work....


I cannot speak for the distance but I had a similar experience on a job with a temp. power GFCI. The only thing I could think of at the time was I had found a lower resistance path for the current (through my at the time grounded body) and the GFCI did not read it or see it as a shock on its end? 
This was years ago and the GFCI tested fine.

Everyone (especially the green people) be careful out there, remember we are all individually responsible for our own safety.


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## guest

Black Dog said:


> This is worthy of a Sticky...


Done. :thumbsup:


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## wcord

99cents said:


> I have no problems with that at all. It could be taught at school during apprenticeship with mandatory renewals after that. Basic first aid is a requirement with some employers already.


I don't know about today, but many years ago( 70's), First Aid with CPR was mandatory in 4th level (Manitoba). It didn't matter if you already had a valid certificate, everyone took the course. 
I agree that keeping your First Aid current would be a good idea.


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## Black Dog

99cents said:


> Pretty tough to pull a limp body out of an attic by yourself and, if he was still alive, you run the danger of injuring him further by trying to move him. Imagine an eight foot drop out of an attic hatch after being electrocuted. It's possible that emergency services said to leave him there.


Good point.


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## Black Dog

hardworkingstiff said:


> You don't think that missing ground prong was the culprit to the tester not working?
> 
> I would think the GFCI would have caught the leakage through your body though.
> 
> Strange.


It's possible on the ground prong, however GFCI's sense the in-balance between hot and neutral and It should have tripped, It may have been defective and standing in an inch of water and soaked through boots made a better ground:laughing:


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## Black Dog

Sparky J said:


> I cannot speak for the distance but I had a similar experience on a job with a temp. power GFCI. The only thing I could think of at the time was I had found a lower resistance path for the current (through my at the time grounded body) and the GFCI did not read it or see it as a shock on its end?
> This was years ago and the GFCI tested fine.
> 
> Everyone (especially the green people) be careful out there, remember we are all individually responsible for our own safety.


Someone should create a GFCI Tester that records the Milli-amps that tripped it.


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## chicken steve

There's nothing more painful than witness life so young go, even_ reading_ about it on the other side of this rock .....~CS~


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## Michigan Master

chicken steve said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones w/ similar stories fellas.
> 
> As an aside , there was at one time a push to have all electrical workers hold a basic cpr cert.
> 
> How does that set with the rest of you?
> 
> ~CS~


I think requiring CPR certification is a great idea. Article 110.2(C) of the NFPA-70E recommends that employees responsible for responding to medical emergencies be trained in first aid, CPR and AED (with annual refresher training).

We require all our electrical workers, supervisors and designated first responders to be trained. In addition to CPR and AED the class covers many types of injuries/illnesses (impalement, amputations, allergic reactions, heat stroke, seizure, heart attack, diabetic shock, electric shock, etc. and it also covers blood borne pathogens and waste disposal). All this training is rolled into one long class, but it’s interesting and informative. However, we only recertify every three years.

The question that seems to come up most often is safe release of victims from contact with exposed energized parts. Releasing a victim from electric shock is not a really a long or complicated procedure; basically it consists of things such as recognizing someone being shocked, do not touch someone currently being shocked, first turn off the power, if unable to remove power, make sure to use a nonconductive object. I recently read an article about someone using a plank of wood to release a victim.

http://www.sundayworld.com/entertainment/trending/badly-electrocuted-man-saved-by-friend-who-hit-him-with-plank-of-wood


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## hardworkingstiff

Black Dog said:


> Someone should create a GFCI Tester that records the Milli-amps that tripped it.


I think I remember backstay saying he had one could do that.


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## Black Dog

chicken steve said:


> There's nothing more painful than witness life so young go, even_ reading_ about it on the other side of this rock .....~CS~


What really get's me Steve: is this guy was a kid, just like we were when we first got into the electrical trade--All the hopes dreams and questions ahead, many come to this board and ask the same questions, on how to get started in the electrical trade and become a Master Electrician is the big Goal.

I think that we all remember how hard it was to get that first job out in the field. To have this kid who just like us, be killed in the field is heart-breaking for sure, it should not have happened in this day and age...


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## AK_sparky

Black Dog said:


> It's possible on the ground prong, however GFCI's sense the in-balance between hot and neutral


Plug-in GFCI tester CAN NOT work without a ground prong.


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## just the cowboy

*Me and my guys were all certified*



chicken steve said:


> I'm one of the lucky ones w/ similar stories fellas.
> 
> As an aside , there was at one time a push to have all electrical workers hold a basic cpr cert.
> 
> How does that set with the rest of you?
> 
> ~CS~


 When I worked for uncle Sam at the Navy base we had to be CPR trained, and when I became foreman at P&G I followed suite and had my guys trained. It did give you a better piece of mind i will say.


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## ELECTRICK2

In reference to Black Dog's story. A GFI will trip if it sees an imbalance in current. Length should have no part in the equation. Since the GFI didn't trip, you have to assume it saw no difference in current. Yet he got zapped. Meaning current left but didn't come back. Doesn't make sense.


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## ELECTRICK2

AK Sparky is also right, GFI tester won't work without ground. When you plug it in make sure it says all is good. If it shows "open ground it won't trip.


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## bjjohns

Black Dog said:


> Someone should create a GFCI Tester that records the Milli-amps that tripped it.


I know this is a post to an old thread, but they do make such a thing. They are not common in North America:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rcd tester


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## Rong

Ink&Brass said:


> That sucks. I'm sure we're all too guilty of just trusting the tick tester sometimes.


 That's why I call them a widow maker!


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## telsa

My experience runs towards re-habbing stores -- grocery & retail.

The hacktastic nature of their circuits is on par with the worst DIYer// trunk slammer.

The original build wasn't that great (cheapo, rush, rush) and the subsequent add-ons are a fright.

So my rule has been: kill all the circuits into the area -- to the extent possible.

A plumber has no hesitation shutting off service to a whole house, and no-one complains.

I take the same attitude.

It's not enough to kill one circuit -- ESPECIALLY when it's someone else's build.

You can work much, much, faster when you've shut down the entire zone.

Dead circuits are easy to tone... which saves oceans of time when the install has turned into a hairball. 

Killing circuits speeds up your work at the same time it eliminates risk.

As for voltage ticks -- I ALWAYS use two. There's no telling when a battery is getting feeble.


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## fargowires

And that is my first thanks to you, Telsa!
Safety first!


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## billn

When using a tester, there is generally a nearby circuit that is hot. I always verify that the tick is functioning correctly by testing the hot circuit - then I test the circuit I am going to be working on. Immediately after that, I reconfirm on the hot circuit that the tick is still working.


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## B.Jenkins

A lot of times when I've had to run up through attics the power in the home is never shut off, of course the wire I'm running isn't energized until it's made up and landed into the panel. 

Been shocked a few times but it always runs through my mind when running through attics. Scary stuff indeed. Condolences to his family.


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## telsa

dronai said:


> That is really sad. It's usually the helpers who get to go up into the attics. * It says that the main power should be shut off before going up there*. How many guys would actually do that ?, 0...... Poor kid, and the JW must feel horrible


That's close to how I play it.


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## gnuuser

i echo the question why were they running an energized cable?:blink:
their procedures are similar to those used in the UK.
verifying the circuit de-energized is crucial to safety.

I also never energize a circuit until it has been tested correctly.
I feel for the family


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## inetdog

Black Dog said:


> It's possible on the ground prong, however GFCI's sense the in-balance between hot and neutral and It should have tripped, It may have been defective and standing in an inch of water and soaked through boots made a better ground:laughing:


Another possibility is that the shock path was entirely from one part off the tool to another and so returned entirely or primarily through the neutral.
Double insulated tools are not great when you remove one of the insulation elements.


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## Wirenut951

Why did this work need to be done hot????????


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## MechanicalDVR

Hadn't seen this before. What a shame, feel bad for the kids family and the Jman. The fine is close to pointless, nothing like that will ease the families minds.


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## arthur17

Why did the dude use tape instead of bcaps? Senseless death. Absolutely mind blowing yall fellas be careful out there man we all have family expecting us back home. Words just can't express the kind of reality that hits reading something like that. #1 rule never trust anyone!!!! Always double check the circuit even if it's a master.....end buzzed/drunken mumbling. I'm just a drunk man talking.


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## PlugsAndLights

Rate of injury to new workers is high. They don't know enough, or 
trust themselves enough, to distrust the experienced guys who are 
supposed to keep them safe. More reasons than this of course (for 
their increased injury rate), but this is a big one. 
P&L


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## arthur17

Yea your right but that should be the first article in the NEC NEVER TRUST ANYONE article 1 done


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## flyboy

PlugsAndLights said:


> Rate of injury to new workers is high. They don't know enough, or
> trust themselves enough, to distrust the experienced guys who are
> supposed to keep them safe. More reasons than this of course (for
> their increased injury rate), but this is a big one.
> P&L


No, that's not the "big one". The "big one" is that many companies fail to have a safety program in place, have weekly safety meetings, provide safety equipment and hold everyone, from managers, JM's, apprentices and everyone else in the company accountable for following the policy. 

You'll find a direct connection to the lack of a safety program to contractors that run unprofitable companies...because they don't know their numbers, don't charge enough and can't afford to put these things in place. They're too busy trying to survive financially to give a chit about their employees.

...but they need a little help today so they'll risk grabbing some poor, unsuspecting, inexperienced guy to go up in the attic and KILL HIM. :furious:


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## MechanicalDVR

I don't fully understand why so many people have the need to work live. I can't imagine what circuit could be so critical in a HOUSE that it had to stay on. Yes I've done it myself in the past but the key is myself and not asked a helper to do it for any reason.


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## PlugsAndLights

flyboy said:


> No, that's not the "big one". The "big one" is that many companies fail to have a safety program in place, have weekly safety meetings, provide safety equipment and hold everyone, from managers, JM's, apprentices and everyone else in the company accountable for following the policy.
> 
> You'll find a direct connection to the lack of a safety program to contractors that run unprofitable companies...because they don't know their numbers, don't charge enough and can't afford to put these things in place. They're too busy trying to survive financially to give a chit about their employees.
> 
> ...but they need a little help today so they'll risk grabbing some poor, unsuspecting, inexperienced guy to go up in the attic and KILL HIM. :furious:


The safety programs I've seen had everything to do with liability 
and little to do with safety. More effective at making sure the workers
were to blame for any incidents than they were at reducing the 
situations leading to the incidents. 
YMMV
P&L


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