# 12/3's and AFCI's



## telsa

arthur said:


> Regarding panel changes and AFCI's. We have some existing 12/3's. What to do? Do I have to run new 12/2 cables to accommodate the AFCI's when we change the panel? That's a lot of extra work!


This has been covered at ET.

If the replacement is a straight swap// upgrade the old work is 'grandfathered.'

You don't have to touch it// bring it up to new work standards// new work Code.


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## socket2ya

Must suck not to know that. How many guys have changed panels and thought they needed to fill the new one with arc-faults. Makes me shudder


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## socket2ya

Mark my words, the day will come when we do have to AF on panel changes. Would you be surprised?


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## Chris1971

arthur said:


> Regarding panel changes and AFCI's. We have some existing 12/3's. What to do? Do I have to run new 12/2 cables to accommodate the AFCI's when we change the panel? That's a lot of extra work!


Install 2 pole AFCI circuit breakers.


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## arthur

They are really tough in NYC, and we have addendum's. Will be checking all that soon.


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## chicken steve

Methinks you'd do well to contact a GE rep Art. 


Iirc, 2 af breakers can be installed for 1 multiwire


GE took the GF function out a while ago


So essentially, the only thing they do is meet code



~CS~


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## Going_Commando

telsa said:


> This has been covered at ET.
> 
> If the replacement is a straight swap// upgrade the old work is 'grandfathered.'
> 
> You don't have to touch it// bring it up to new work standards// new work Code.


Blanket statements like that are just ignorant. Your comment is not true, depending on the situation and the jurisdiction in which the work is being done.


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## telsa

Going_Commando said:


> Blanket statements like that are just ignorant. Your comment is not true, depending on the situation and the jurisdiction in which the work is being done.


Wrong.

This LEGAL standard of 'grandfathering' pre-dates the NEC and is universally applicable to all building codes and MUCH else.

Go back to Law School.

The WHOLE REASON that the NEC permits 'grandfathering' is because of pre-existing case law and statutes. It didn't spring from the opinion of EEs.

Grandfathering is why ancient buildings can soldier on -- seemingly forever -- so long as nothing is changed. That's the kicker.

Once you've crossed the magic threshold... then the ENTIRE build has to be brought up to current new-build Code standards.

Your post was just ignorant.


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## telsa

ONE example of Grandfathering: antique cars being permitted on the road.

They don't meet ANY of the safety standards... not even safety belts.

They STILL are allowed to be re-registered year after year for open road use.

The kicker is that they MUST stay on original spec... with only trivial variation.

You can't drop a new motor in them and then roll. Such a 'mod' requires EVERY other aspect of the antique to be brought up to new-build standards.

See Gas Monkey Garage for how they have to upgrade a 1932 Ford Roadster. Most of their work is compulsory... once they changed the engine... which they always do. ( Variances for 'Show Cars' are also involved. )


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## Going_Commando

telsa said:


> Wrong.
> 
> This LEGAL standard of 'grandfathering' pre-dates the NEC and is universally applicable to all building codes and MUCH else.
> 
> Go back to Law School.
> 
> The WHOLE REASON that the NEC permits 'grandfathering' is because of pre-existing case law and statutes. It didn't spring from the opinion of EEs.
> 
> Grandfathering is why ancient buildings can soldier on -- seemingly forever -- so long as nothing is changed. That's the kicker.
> 
> Once you've crossed the magic threshold... then the ENTIRE build has to be brought up to current new-build Code standards.
> 
> Your post was just ignorant.


Guess what? In NH, if you do a panel change where the panel is located in a location requiring AFCI protection, then you must install AFCI breakers. Get over yourself. What's next? You gonna tell him to just build a door to hide the 12-3's behind it?


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## cabletie

> 12/3's and AFCI's
> Regarding panel changes and AFCI's. We have some existing 12/3's. What to do? Do I have to run new 12/2 cables to accommodate the AFCI's when we change the panel? That's a lot of extra work!


In NJ you wouldn't need arc fault. It falls under the rehab code where some exsisting conditions are grandfathered in. Since it's a MWBC you would need a 2 pole breaker. 

If you needed an arc fault breaker, your in luck because they are cheaper than two single poles. I have read on here that some guys still use MWBC because the two pole arc faults are cheaper


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## chicken steve

We're on the '17 now. 

406.4 explicitly rejects _grandfathered_ anything

The AF-cabal musta read your post Tels....:whistling2:~CS~


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## frenchelectrican

chicken steve said:


> We're on the '17 now.
> 
> 406.4 explicitly rejects _grandfathered_ anything
> 
> The AF-cabal musta read your post Tels....:whistling2:~CS~


Maybe so Chicken.,, but hold your beak a minuite.,,

In OP sistuation if he was just only changing the panel and nothing else and it can be under grandfather clause. 

with MWBC ya can use two pole breakers but if going to use AFGF mode the only breaker manufacter I know is GE to get the AF work but other manufacter are kinda muted on that.

I am not sure what the OP's state code requirement reguarding of just replace the panel and not touch any circuit at all. ( some will say GFAF may not be needed but it is up to their inspector to make the final call whatever their state code addmentent is. )


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## macmikeman

socket2ya said:


> Mark my words, the day will come when we do have to AF on panel changes. Would you be surprised?


No. And I'm going to blame Dennis when it does happen.


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## telsa

Going_Commando said:


> Guess what? In NH, if you do a panel change *where the panel is located in a location requiring AFCI protection*, then you must install AFCI breakers. Get over yourself. What's next? You gonna tell him to just build a door to hide the 12-3's behind it?


But...

That's IT.

It does not require updating.

An absolute panel swap is grandfathered.

If otherwise, no-one would perform them -- much.

The kicker is that you DON'T have much leeway as to shifting its position.

It really has to go, pretty much, right back where the old puppy was.

Even shifting the swap-out a couple of stud bays over would be a b%$$##.

Anything beyond pretty much a one-for-one swap out means that you're no longer grandfathered.

Oh, my.

If this legal escape clause did not exist, virtually NOTHING would ever be remediated. 

All corrections would be paralysed by the expense of going the whole route.

THAT'S why the courts -- centuries ago -- came up with the doctrine of 'grandfathering.'


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## macmikeman

The whole handle tie thing stinks. Nobody was thinking that day, you ever try finding a handle tie for some stupid 277 volt old FPE or Westinghouse breakers for a 277 / 480 volt lighting panel? Good luck finding those, but code says you have to put one in if you are mucking with things on a tenant improvement job in a high rise office building. How about the times there is a full boat but the existing breakers are not adjacent, yet they worked it out properly so there is not a line to line short. And the panel is serving multiple tenants so another good luck with getting permissions to move the third party lighting wiring around in the panels.............


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## Going_Commando

telsa said:


> But...
> 
> That's IT.
> 
> It does not require updating.
> 
> An absolute panel swap is grandfathered.
> 
> If otherwise, no-one would perform them -- much.
> 
> The kicker is that you DON'T have much leeway as to shifting its position.
> 
> It really has to go, pretty much, right back where the old puppy was.
> 
> Even shifting the swap-out a couple of stud bays over would be a b%$$##.
> 
> Anything beyond pretty much a one-for-one swap out means that you're no longer grandfathered.
> 
> Oh, my.
> 
> If this legal escape clause did not exist, virtually NOTHING would ever be remediated.
> 
> All corrections would be paralysed by the expense of going the whole route.
> 
> THAT'S why the courts -- centuries ago -- came up with the doctrine of 'grandfathering.'


An absolute panel swap, if the panel is in the living room, bedroom, etc where AFCI protection is required by current code, must be filled with AFCI's. It's a dumb rule, but it is what it is. If the panel is in the basement or garage, and you aren't extending circuits, then you can still use normal breakers. If the panel is a flush mount in the living room or hallway, and you swap it, all circuits required to be AFCI protected on the 2017 NEC MUST be AFCI protected when you swap the panel. What is is so hard for you to wrap your head around? You can keep going in circles on grandfathering (which I know plenty about), but that doesn't change the opinion of the electrical inspectors in NH.


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## nrp3

Where'd this come from, the 17 code? I have to change panels occasionally that are in bedrooms in the elderly housing units.


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## Going_Commando

nrp3 said:


> Where'd this come from, the 17 code? I have to change panels occasionally that are in bedrooms in the elderly housing units.


State inspector told me that 6 years ago. Right from the horse's mouth.


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## nrp3

I'll have to ask the next one I see about that. Never heard that before.


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## Chris1971

Going_Commando said:


> An absolute panel swap, if the panel is in the living room, bedroom, etc where AFCI protection is required by current code, must be filled with AFCI's. It's a dumb rule, but it is what it is. If the panel is in the basement or garage, and you aren't extending circuits, then you can still use normal breakers. If the panel is a flush mount in the living room or hallway, and you swap it, all circuits required to be AFCI protected on the 2017 NEC MUST be AFCI protected when you swap the panel. What is is so hard for you to wrap your head around? You can keep going in circles on grandfathering (which I know plenty about), but that doesn't change the opinion of the electrical inspectors in NH.


Code reference?


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## lighterup

Going_Commando said:


> State inspector told me that 6 years ago. Right from the horse's mouth.


6 years ago? I do not doubt you , but is this an addendum under
New Hampshire's residential code?

Here in Ohio , it is not this way. Grandfathering applies , no mention of
what the panel location is.

My goal of retiring is in 5 years.
If my state starts this garbage I'll be out sooner than later.


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## HackWork

cabletie said:


> In NJ you wouldn't need arc fault. It falls under the rehab code where some exsisting conditions are grandfathered in.* Since it's a MWBC you would need a 2 pole breaker. *
> 
> If you needed an arc fault breaker, your in luck because they are cheaper than two single poles. I have read on here that some guys still use MWBC because the two pole arc faults are cheaper


A handle tie will work too. I find it easier to carry handle ties than extra 15A and 20A 2-poles. Some panels you end up finding a whole bunch of MWBC's. 



Going_Commando said:


> State inspector told me that 6 years ago. Right from the horse's mouth.


I think that inspector is full of bologna. That's just an assumption, but I'd bet on it. 



telsa said:


> But...
> 
> That's IT.
> 
> It does not require updating.
> 
> An absolute panel swap is grandfathered.
> 
> If otherwise, no-one would perform them -- much.


 You always generalize based on what is done in your state, but it's not always the same. Some areas don't allow grandfathering, I don' tknow how you could argue that unless you know the adopted code in every single jurisdiction across the country, down to the town level in some places.


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## telsa

The legal concept of grandfathering supersedes ALL building codes and goes back many centuries into common law.

Go to law school.

This or that inspector can get away with saying just about anything -- and have been known to do so.

Things start to fall apart once they are challenged.

The State ( ie the government ) is not allowed to force you to change your property -- unless it's willing to stump up the money for said change, itself. ( or claim eminent domain -- and buy you out entire )

That's the principle.

It goes all the way back to: "Your home is your castle."

Even the Crown ( government ) is prohibited from invading your property without cause... and that cause can't be revisions in the building code.

If it was okay 20 years ago -- and has not burned down// collapsed -- then it surely was built right -- and surely was built according to the Code -- the mandate of the government// Crown// state at that time.

The state is NOT allowed to pull the rug out from under you.

In contrast: note the way the world operates in Communist countries. You neither have property rights nor personal rights. Their entire basis for law is re-rigged every time the Sun comes up.


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## telsa

Town councils, et. al., are not allowed to over-rule the USSC nor the US Constitution.

They may TRY though.


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## backstay

Going_Commando said:


> State inspector told me that 6 years ago. Right from the horse's mouth.


And state inspectors are the absolute authority on code! Never seen one that was wrong. Nope, end of story!

So, when you need to replace that 50 amp breaker to the range, you using a 20 and 30 DP? You know, because the panel is in the hall, or entry, or bedroom.


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