# Stray voltage on heatsink



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Use a wiggy next time.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Wiggy or Fluke, same result.

Oh, except at the output of the ballast. Fluke (43) wins there since the Wiggies usually have too low impedance.

I'm...glad you like my other avatar...?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

In best Indian Accent (dot) : I like a lot of things........


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Yah, I get that...I guess...not really sure where you are going with that...:001_huh:

I save the rhetoric for the Controversial Talk section.

I was looking for electricians who could help.

Thanks anyway.:thumbsup:


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Use a wiggy next time.


Oh, I see. You got that from my Disqus account. Yeah, I use a different avatar there.

Still...not sure why you went to all that trouble.

The Indian accent has me confused though.:red_indian:


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Was no trouble at all, rather accidental actually. Surfers rule


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

So, there is a real voltage there and not just ghost? Can it power a load? Have you had a helper touch it?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

cuba_pete said:


> I have found voltages in various fixtures from ~20VAC all the way to 277VAC (in 277 configuration) and similar results in ballasted configuration. Voltage is being measured between the heatsink and the luminaire's metal frame.
> 
> The varying voltage does suggest induced voltage
> 
> ...


__________


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

I second that. Im interested in see your findings as well.


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

it doesn't seems ok but same problem that can happen with any led fixture that have a metal heatsink.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

oliquir said:


> it doesn't seems ok but same problem that can happen with any led fixture that have a metal heatsink.


???

Really? :blink:

Why is that? Why would a manufacturer/designer do such a thing?

Down here in the U.S., I would start with specifically referring to the NEC :
* 
410.5 Live Parts.​*​​​​Luminaires, portable luminaires, lampholders, and lamps shall have no live parts normally exposed to contact.​ ​ I assume that the CEC has a similar code section.​ ​ In one scenario I can imagine, a store owner puts these T8's in their display cases where the customer could easily be shocked by them. It just seems so ludicrous.​


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

I still say it is your meter, cause there is an overcorrect device that is going to be noticing the issue, or else probably some smoke coming out of something or another.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> So, there is a real voltage there and not just ghost? Can it power a load? Have you had a helper touch it?


Well, yeah...there is real voltage there.

I can light a bulb between the heatsink and grounded parts of the luminaire.

No live subjects, yet.:whistling2:


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> I still say it is your meter, cause there is an overcorrect device that is going to be noticing the issue, or else probably some smoke coming out of something or another.


The heatsink is not bonded, so it's an exposed terminal. It doesn't pop any breakers that way.

When I conducted the test with a light bulb it only worked for a second, then the unintended path in the tube's SMPS went to sh!t in a loud/magic-smoke-release kind of way.

Very exciting.

This brand/model of tube is hazardous.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

theJcK said:


> I second that. Im interested in see your findings as well.


Here are some of my test results:
​ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​ These are just initial findings. I haven't compiled a table for the ballasted fixture tests yet. I am finding similar conditions there, just at the driven frequency from the ballast.​


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

I think you said heat sink wasn't bonded(bad design imho). I guess what you really need to prove is touch potential. FWIW quick fix/ temporary fix run bond jumper?


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

cuba_pete said:


> ???
> 
> Really? :blink:
> 
> ...


i said that because most of led bulbs doesnt have ground pin so we cant ground them, but the heasinks are supposed to be floating, if you have voltage on it it is defective.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

oliquir said:


> I said that because most of led bulbs doesnt have ground pin so we cant ground them, but the heatsinks are supposed to be floating, if you have voltage on it it is defective.





Bird dog said:


> I think you said heat sink wasn't bonded(bad design imho). I guess what you really need to prove is touch potential. FWIW quick fix/ temporary fix run bond jumper?


Touch potential has been proven on my part.

When I bonded it the magic smoke got out.

This isn't phantom voltage, it's just a bad design.

I will be reverse engineering the SMPS inside the tube, if not for my own curiosity, then to better report it to my safety department as to the root cause. My guess is that the negative side of the power supply's output is supposed to be floating. Since the LED assembly is mounted to an external heat sink it presents an issue.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Was the fixture made in China?


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

joebanana said:


> Was the fixture made in China?


We have several fixtures which are exhibiting the issue (ballasted and not ballasted). The main one I am focusing on is one which I have the easiest access to and allows quicker testing.

That fixture/luminaire is an Ergolight model 101, made in Canada. The fixture was originally fitted with ballasts. The ballasts (in the case of the 277 VAC/60 Hz stray voltage) have been cut out of the path. The LED tubes are powered directly by 277 via the non-shunted tombstones original to the fixture (rated at 600V).

Even on a test bench with no fixture, the LED tubes exhibit the issue. Depending on which pins are powered (according to the manufacturers instructions) there is voltage present on the heat sink.

The Eurilight LED tubes are of Chinese manufacture, designed by Irtronix in California.

.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> We have several fixtures which are exhibiting the issue (ballasted and not ballasted). The main one I am focusing on is one which I have the easiest access to and allows quicker testing.
> 
> That fixture/luminaire is an Ergolight model 101, made in Canada. The fixture was originally fitted with ballasts. The ballasts (in the case of the 277 VAC/60 Hz stray voltage) have been cut out of the path. The LED tubes are powered directly by 277 via the non-shunted tombstones original to the fixture (rated at 600V).
> 
> ...


I would contact the manufacturer, maybe they need a recall.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

joebanana said:


> I would contact the manufacturer, maybe they need a recall.


They responded to my emails twice, but I have yet to hear back from them a third time.

It's a waiting game...I hope they hurry.

In my view these are unsafe tubes, and they are available at homedepot.com...


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

cuba_pete said:


> They responded to my emails twice, but I have yet to hear back from them a third time.
> 
> It's a waiting game...I hope they hurry.
> 
> In my view these are unsafe tubes, and they are available at homedepot.com...


Maybe notify HD, that they pose a shock hazard. They for sure sound like a bad design. Maybe they'll remove/discontinue them in the meantime. I'm assuming they're UL listed? Maybe contact UL labs? You might just save a life.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

no pics ?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ok, I didn't understand or missed the part that the heat sink was unbounded to the chassis . In that case holy cow. I would contact Home Depot , that will get the manufacture'r to start paying attention.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

I haven't been able to get a video together. This has become more of a nuisance than anything i.e., not a part of my regular job...disassembling and testing of a stupid light bulb, if you get my drift.

A can't represent my employer officially, so I am left to waiting for the safety department to make a determination. They can sound the alarm officially.

I did call the Consumer Product Safety Commission, however, and start a case. I don't know how long that takes.

If anybody here comes across a similar device, I would advise caution and testing. If more people come up with the same results it would only bolster the concern for safety.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

I am heading to HD later today and will see if they have any of those lamps, I may get one and do some tests and pics if I can. 

Meantime, since this appears to be a safety issue, I am copying this thread to the Safety notices forum: http://www.electriciantalk.com/f57/stray-voltage-heatsink-eurilight-et8-1150h-145314/

Please continue all discussions on THIS original thread location.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I have been using either Keystone or Eiko with the ballast removed and so far good luck. That can't be right, should be nothing there. Has to be defective. Time to find another brand. I don't think you're going to escape the made in China, but maybe somebody more well known.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

I contacted the Underwriters Laboratories, and after the nice lady on the phone helped me navigate their page, I found the product listing for the company. The file number on the sticker returned four hits.

*None* of those four hits contain the model number for the product (in my hands) which bears the UL sticker.

_update: This company has *no* G13 medium bi-pin base tubes listed at UL. They have other models with the UL sticker, as well._

Now, maybe the page at UL needs updating. But, this does give me impetus to start a Market Surveillance Report Form with UL. Especially so, since the company has discontinued correspondence.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Do they investigate or does CPSC? I'm sure they'd like to know, as would we whether these are listed for real or not and not just defective.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

> Market Surveillance Report Form with UL.


Interesting, I didn't know they did that

Go Pete!

~CS~


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## oliquir (Jan 13, 2011)

and HD didn't even checked if UL numer was legit that before selling this crap!


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Do they investigate or does CPSC? I'm sure they'd like to know, as would we whether these are listed for real or not and not just defective.


I received an email from CPSC yesterday. I am going to return their call today (investigator assigned).

The UL has also replied. Their assigned investigator requested about a week to reply.

It's a waiting game right now.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

oliquir said:


> and HD didn't even checked if UL numer was legit that before selling this crap!


Yeah, I don't even know if they do that...

If this hits the fan I will call them myself with reports "in-hand".

Safety is paramount in my mind. I wouldn't want anyone I know to fall victim to this.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

HD isn't going to check and I doubt many other retailers would either. I don't blame HD, though the fact that its sold by them will likely be in your favor.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

So, the CPSC will be in-house next week. I am hoping for a favorable opinion which agrees with my findings and that of one of our contractor's electricians.

Underwriters Labs followed up with a phone call yesterday. They requested I send one tube for evaluation and verification of the label. According to the investigator assigned these tubes are not UL certified, i.e., they are not included on any documents registered with UL.

I'd say the plot thickens, but it's more like thinning...


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## Ultrafault (Dec 16, 2012)

Amazing story.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Interesting to see how this turns out.


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