# Please give me a good ballpark price number for a big 72' Hoffman 4x box



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Ive got a situation coming up soon that will require me replacing 2 3ph 50 hp motors, tearing out old contactor controls, replacing that with 2 new VFD's (supplied and installed and startup by others) and the wiring . New stuff goes in same general area as old stuff goes. It will probably be one of those Friday afternoon shutdown and Monday morning startup type jobs. What I need to do is put a ballpark price together over this weekend. Getting a quote on that Hoffman Box is my one problem I can't solve on my own. Not this fast. I have stuck in a 3r 5' x 3' steel type before and have old data on that price , but that is not the same as what I need now. 72" high, 36" wide, min 12" deep, better is 18" deep 4x rated for outdoors. 2 door. If anybody else has done this recently within say 5 years or so I could really use a number on the box. Without shipping. We add that as extra and mark it up as well. 

Mahalo in advance.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

https://www.factorymation.com/SCE-72EL3616LP
https://www.factorymation.com/SCE-72P36
If you want stainless they are $2750
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

Platt says 72 x 36 x 18 is nearly $12k... But that is Platt.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I have bought a bunch of big enclosures this year, Automation Direct is hard to beat. 

https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...subpanels_-z-_thermal_management_-z-_lighting

From there you can filter by dimensions and NEMA rating and material and get your answer fast. 

There are wall mount steel units for $857, freestanding stainless from Hubbell-Wiegmann for $4,781.00. Freight will be a bundle of course. 

Generally Hoffman is up to 50% more.


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## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

These online prices are all over the place. I found them for $2300-$15k. If you can get away with a 4 instead of 4x, you save a bunch too.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> These online prices are all over the place. I found them for $2300-$15k. If you can get away with a 4 instead of 4x, you save a bunch too.


Crescent, Platt, Gordon, Graybar, etc., as well as Fastenal, Grainger, etc. - all nonsense, somehow with good search engine ranking. 

Automation Direct is not like the others. Real prices, real inventories, excellent web site, excellent service. One of the bigs will probably buy them and **** everything up pretty soon, but for now, great supplier.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

For boxes Saginaw Controls makes either equal or better than Hoffmann, especially stainless. Same thickness but a little better hardware a lot of times. They use the same catalog numbers. Just replace H with SCE.

Saginaw Controls is out of Saginaw, Michigan. They have multiple sites but everything sold in the US is made in the US. No Chinese crap.

Best thing Is their entire catalog and “list” prices and ordering are online. If you request a quote they knock about 15% off those. To convert to Hoffman list price multiple brands roughly 2-3. That’s why distributor prices are all over the place. You think you’re getting a good deal but you have no idea how much markup you’re eating. And lately Hoffman deliveries are a crapshoot.

They will do custom too. Their entire production line is automated so you get your box pretty fast. But for custom I usually just go to the local sheet metal shop. They’re about the same price and speed, and...local.

In the Southeast they keep pretty well stocked in Nashville, TN. Same in Saginaw, MI. Not sure elsewhere but in North Carolina we get them next day.

You can also get them off Omega.com. Omega also sells a lot of the instrument boxes but stocking is horrendous. For more instrument/fiber boxes FIS Sales is the way to go.

Hoffman is starting to look like Rittal too...yuck!

Hence...I’m done with Hoffman. Higher prices and crazy shopping around, crappy delivery, crappy web site, good catalog if I need another thing to fill the truck up with. The supply houses only live them for the markup game. That’s like buying a car where every car dealer in town is out to screw you for every last penny they can extract.

Automation Direct is decent too but more limited selection.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

paulengr said:


> For boxes Saginaw Controls makes either equal or better than Hoffmann, especially stainless. Same thickness but a little better hardware a lot of times. They use the same catalog numbers. Just replace H with SCE.
> 
> Saginaw Controls is out of Saginaw, Michigan. They have multiple sites but everything sold in the US is made in the US. No Chinese crap.
> 
> Best thing Is their entire catalog and “list” prices and ordering are online. If you request a quote they knock about 15% off those. To convert to Hoffman list price multiple brands roughly 2-3. That’s why distributor prices are all over the place. You think you’re getting a good deal but you have no idea how much markup you’re eating. And lately Hoffman deliveries are a crapshoot.


http://www.saginawcontrol.com/partnumber_info/?n=SCE-72EL3618SSFS 

$5,345.91 list, so less 10% call it $4,811.32 

That's competitive with Hubbell / Wiegmann and Hammond at Automation Direct. 
:thumbsup:


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## John Valdes (May 17, 2007)

I used to use these enclosures back when I was selling them. I was a distributor so I had a good price. But who knows these days. They always beat Hoffman on price as well. Very good product. 
Call them and get a quote.

http://www.electrical-enclosures.com/


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Ive got a situation coming up soon that will require me replacing 2 3ph 50 hp motors, tearing out old contactor controls, replacing that with 2 new VFD's (supplied and installed and startup by others) and the wiring . New stuff goes in same general area as old stuff goes. It will probably be one of those Friday afternoon shutdown and Monday morning startup type jobs. What I need to do is put a ballpark price together over this weekend. Getting a quote on that Hoffman Box is my one problem I can't solve on my own. Not this fast. I have stuck in a 3r 5' x 3' steel type before and have old data on that price , but that is not the same as what I need now. 72" high, 36" wide, min 12" deep, better is 18" deep 4x rated for outdoors. 2 door. If anybody else has done this recently within say 5 years or so I could really use a number on the box. Without shipping. We add that as extra and mark it up as well.
> 
> Mahalo in advance.


Mikie,
Be careful using NEMA 4x outdoor. It's not just a simple upgrade from 3R.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> Mikie,
> Be careful using NEMA 4x outdoor. It's not just a simple upgrade from 3R.



SPEC'D. No choice, not my farm............


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> SPEC'D. No choice, not my farm............


Do the specifications state that you are required to install according to code? 
Do the specs state you are required to notify the person responsible for the design if you find a conflict?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> Do the specifications state that you are required to install according to code?
> Do the specs state you are required to notify the person responsible for the design if you find a conflict?



With 4X there are TWO varieties, stainless and fiberglass. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. With fiberglass make sure it’s mechanically protected. With stainless avoid the C-latches with the screw and go for Enviroline quarter turn latches. Scratch that...just do quarter turns period. The stainless C latches gall when you look at them funny and then the latch strips out.

But unless it’s an acid plant I avoid fiberglass. They’re very flimsy or crazy high priced.

Second and HUGE issue with stainless is heat. Double that with VFDs. In summer the boxes get wicked hot even without big heat sources like VFDs in them. When installing NEMA 4XSS outdoors make sure you put a small awning/roof over it or it will overheat and it becomes the contractors fault. With VFDs figure on 5% losses so with say a 10 HP VFD you get 0.5 HP of heat or 373 Watts of heat. Since it is NEMA 4X you need to use AC or thermoelectric coolers. AC lasts one to two seasons, coolers much longer. If this isn’t enough like on larger drives you either need a much larger enclosure (walk in) with a large BARD air conditioner or switch to NEMA 12 with vent fans.

Third issue. This is the big one. At night there is the humidity issue. Strip heaters are a partial solution because it might still be too hot to heat. That’s a winter solution. Either get a breather or if the customer allows it drill a small (1/8”) hole in the corner. This makes it NEMA 3 but it’s better than the alternative. I’ve actually seen 1/4” of water pooled in a 100% sealed NEMA 4X box. All from condensation!

Don’t forget oddball (Ethernet, Modbus) fittings need conduit or Roxtec fittings. Entries from side/bottom only. Make sure raceways have a “drip loop”. Fasteners stainless too. The common cheap push buttons and such are limited. The vast majority are NEMA 12, not 4X.

The reality is a lot of customers really want an outdoor stainless box or NEMA 12 style (dust/oil tight) but in an outdoor location that doesn’t rust out in 5 years. Often you can use the 4X boxes but treat them a little differently. All they see is corrosion protection not thinking about everything that goes into that. They see how the cheap 3R or 12 boxes rust out mostly because of the condensation issue and think SS is the answer when it’s condensation management that’s the issue. 4X is for chemical plants where they need that kind of thing. Even then all the issues above are a big problem in that environment.

So my hints above work on ALL types of boxes. There are Code issues to be sure. Drilling a 1/8” open hole makes it not 4X or 12. So use the breather ($$) if you have to.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> Do the specifications state that you are required to install according to code?
> Do the specs state you are required to notify the person responsible for the design if you find a conflict?



I thought you were talking about heating but the spec would get him off the hook for that. What's the code issue / conflict? 



I'll make a guess ... 

Is it sealing entries with hubs rated for washdown rather than regular weather rated / rain tight conduit connectors?


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

splatz said:


> Is it sealing entries with hubs rated for washdown rather than regular weather rated / rain tight conduit connectors?



Yep every penetration. Even a push button.

But even beyond that it will be to Code to install as is but condensation for instance is a real problem and why NEMA 4X is indoor only...something frequently missed.


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## just the cowboy (Sep 4, 2013)

splatz said:


> I have bought a bunch of big enclosures this year, Automation Direct is hard to beat.
> 
> There are wall mount steel units for $857, freestanding stainless from Hubbell-Wiegmann for $4,781.00. Freight will be a bundle of course.
> 
> Generally Hoffman is up to 50% more.


I just priced a 72"x48"x18" from AD. Shipping was free!!!! That's a $500 saving on a panel that size for me.
Cowboy


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## JRaef (Mar 23, 2009)

paulengr said:


> Yep every penetration. Even a push button.
> 
> But even beyond that it will be to Code to install as is but condensation for instance is a real problem and why NEMA 4X is indoor only...something frequently missed.


UL type 4X is indoor / outdoor, unless specifically stated as "indoor only", which is the case with some non-metallic enclosures because of UV deterioration. Stainless Steel 4X enclosures are always outdoor rated.


But yes, heat is your enemy here, especially with 2 x 50HP VFDs inside. 100HP = 75kW, heat rejection is approx. 3%, so those two drives together represent the equivalent of a 2250 kW heater inside; think two 5 ft baseboard heaters running full time inside of that box. You WILL need an Air Conditioner.


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## cmdr_suds (Jul 29, 2016)

If this is for a sewage lift station, The H2S coming off of the sewage will eat the AC alive if its anywhere close to the well. Plus nobody EVER maintains them. filter clog. Compressors fails. Very expensive. I would really recommend direct ventilation with appropriate rain hoods. Have a talk with the engineer or owner.


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## bill39 (Sep 4, 2009)

Two things:
1) There is NEMA-4X 304 Stainless steel andNEMA-4X 316 stainless. 316 stainless is much, much more expensive.

2) Don’t forget to include the $$ for the backpanel.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

JRaef said:


> UL type 4X is indoor / outdoor, unless specifically stated as "indoor only", which is the case with some non-metallic enclosures because of UV deterioration. Stainless Steel 4X enclosures are always outdoor rated.
> 
> 
> But yes, heat is your enemy here, especially with 2 x 50HP VFDs inside. 100HP = 75kW, heat rejection is approx. 3%, so those two drives together represent the equivalent of a 2250 kW heater inside; think two 5 ft baseboard heaters running full time inside of that box. You WILL need an Air Conditioner.



I'll be passing this info along to the customer. Thats heavy. It's up on a building's parking deck out in direct sunlight to boot. This is Architect/ engineering firm specified. I'm thinking they saw the old stainless 4x box enclosing 2 old starters, 2 old fuse blocks and fuses and controls and lights in the face of the old panel box and figured it would be ok for the drives. I originally asked the building owner about we add in cooling and he was against it. Now I have some numbers to back up my initial cautions to him.


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

cmdr_suds said:


> If this is for a sewage lift station, The H2S coming off of the sewage will eat the AC alive if its anywhere close to the well. Plus nobody EVER maintains them. filter clog. Compressors fails. Very expensive. I would really recommend direct ventilation with appropriate rain hoods. Have a talk with the engineer or owner.



The H2S will eat the drives too. Worst one I’ve seen is for the town of Matteo in NC in the outer banks. The piping was not quite right so the discharge into the wet well is above the surface so it just spews H2S worse than normal. Even with sealing the motor cable conduit to the wet well (submersibles) it gets about 3 years life out of drives. That’s just the local air around it.

Electrical equipment is sensitive to H2S down to 0.1 ppm. You stop smelling it below 1 ppm and also above 10 ppm (when it kills you in minutes). If you want to know how nasty this stuff can get google silver whiskers, H2S, and start reading.


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