# Solve this AFCI Mystery



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I assume that it was the AFCI part of the breaker that was tripping, and not the breaker tripping from an overload?

Nothing else turning on or getting plugged into that circuit would trip it except those two lights?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Maybe the current on the circuit didn't draw the threshold current the AFCI wants to see until the fountain was added. So now, it's tripping for problems that it didn't trip for before.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I would have unplugged the fountain ,then tried the lights again....~CS~


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

They got a new laser printer for the office after you did the work


*edit* printer,fax,scanner all in one 

Guess #2 is someone finally decide to use that treadmill


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## mitch65 (Mar 26, 2015)

Does the breaker stay on if those switches are on when the breaker is reset? 
If you unplug the pump does the breaker trip?
If you trip the GFCI (with a tester, not the button) does the breaker trip or the GFCI Receptacle? Or both?
Its almost as if the pump motor has the AFCI almost at trip and the arc from the switches causes the trip. 
If you change out the GFCI receptacle for a regular one, does the breaker trip when you turn on the switches?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm suspicious of that fountain motor....~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

The AFCI tripped turning on the furnace room light switch. I did that 3 times.

The AFCI also tripped turning on the bathroom light switch twice.


In all instances, the fountain was unplugged.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

As I trust you can install a gfci properly, i'm at a loss as to what _changed_ here 480....

~CS~


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Not nearly enough info to make a determination, as usual.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

How did you come out of the existing box? Drill a 7/8" hole and use a Raco Insider? Was it metal?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Please don't string us along like you did on the thread where the problem was a bad photocell in the attic.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Bulbs in those 2 rooms were loose :laughing:


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Are there dimmers on those switches that trip it?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

So he added a GFCI receptacle, that's it. And that alone caused two switches to trip the AFCI breaker, nothing else tripped it but those two switches.

That is my understanding.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Short between the neutral and bond at the new outdoor outlet? 
P&L


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

HackWork said:


> How did you come out of the existing box? Drill a 7/8" hole and use a Raco Insider? Was it metal?


Plastic box. Drilled straight out using an Insider.





splatz said:


> Are there dimmers on those switches that trip it?


Now who on God's Green Little Half Acre puts dimmers on a furnace room keyless?





HackWork said:


> So he added a GFCI receptacle, that's it. And that alone caused two switches to trip the AFCI breaker, nothing else tripped it but those two switches.
> 
> That is my understanding.


That's it.


I found an issue that would certainly explain the AFCI tripping, but not why the two switches would trip it.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Well if the issue you found doesn't answer why the two switches tripped it, and that hasn't been solved, there is no way we can solve it from BFE.

Here's my guess: The metal box on the exterior acted like an antenna and allowed RF interference into the circuit more easily because there's a transmitter just down the street. And the neighbor, Roger, is an avid ham radio nut. He has been since his grandpa used to drag him to ham fests when he was 13. That was a wild summer. He also kissed Mary Marlene Scott at the quarry that year, but she moved to Florida and they sent a few letters back and forth, but increasingly infrequently. And there's was one time they talked long distance on the phone but Roger got in trouble because it cost so much. He hasn't heard from her since but he found her on Facebook and she's doing great and has a couple of kids now and a grandkid on the way. Anyway, he happened to be keying his mic at exactly the moment the switch was being flipped and his transmission coupled with the nearby radio tower was enough to tip the AFCI over the edge.

Did I win?


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

InPhase277 said:


> Well if the issue you found doesn't answer why the two switches tripped it, and that hasn't been solved, there is no way we can solve it from BFE.
> 
> Here's my guess: The metal box on the exterior acted like an antenna and allowed RF interference into the circuit more easily because there's a transmitter just down the street. And the neighbor, Roger, is an avid ham radio nut. He has been since his grandpa used to drag him to ham fests when he was 13. That was a wild summer. He also kissed Mary Marlene Scott at the quarry that year, but she moved to Florida and they sent a few letters back and forth, but increasingly infrequently. And there's was one time they talked long distance on the phone but Roger got in trouble because it cost so much. He hasn't heard from her since but he found her on Facebook and she's doing great and has a couple of kids now and a grandkid on the way. Anyway, he happened to be keying his mic at exactly the moment the switch was being flipped and his transmission coupled with the nearby radio tower was enough to tip the AFCI over the edge.
> 
> Did I win?


:lol::lol:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm stuck on the fact that you found poor splicing in (2) switches and
they did not cause the afci to trip prior to you doing any work. That
in itself shows afci's aren't functioning as intended.

I assume there's nothing wrong with your splice where you pulled power from?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

InPhase277 said:


> Well if the issue you found doesn't answer why the two switches tripped it, and that hasn't been solved, there is no way we can solve it from BFE.
> 
> Here's my guess: The metal box on the exterior acted like an antenna and allowed RF interference into the circuit more easily because there's a transmitter just down the street. And the neighbor, Roger, is an avid ham radio nut. He has been since his grandpa used to drag him to ham fests when he was 13. That was a wild summer. He also kissed Mary Marlene Scott at the quarry that year, but she moved to Florida and they sent a few letters back and forth, but increasingly infrequently. And there's was one time they talked long distance on the phone but Roger got in trouble because it cost so much. He hasn't heard from her since but he found her on Facebook and she's doing great and has a couple of kids now and a grandkid on the way. Anyway, he happened to be keying his mic at exactly the moment the switch was being flipped and his transmission coupled with the nearby radio tower was enough to tip the AFCI over the edge.
> 
> Did I win?


Hey. Were you a 12B combat engineer?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Was it a bad AFCI?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Bird dog said:


> Was it a bad AFCI?


They're all bad.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I'm stuck on the fact that you found poor splicing in (2) switches and
> they did not cause the afci to trip prior to you doing any work. That
> in itself shows afci's aren't functioning as intended.
> 
> I assume there's nothing wrong with your splice where you pulled power from?



I only found a bad splice in one switch.... the furnace room.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I only found a bad splice in one switch.... the furnace room.


Okay , still (1) splice that's bad can cause a fire. The afci should prevent it by 
tripping but the HO said that breaker never tripped. 

Anyhow , are you ready to give up the solution?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Let me know when this is over. That bell box looks like ****. I would have cut a box in.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

480sparky said:


> I only found a bad splice in one switch.... the furnace room.


That's it? That's the finish I've been waiting for? I'm unsatisfied
I don't even feel sleepy:no:
P&L


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

New gfic is red herring he put different bulbs in bath fixture fluorescent or LEDs mixed do I get a cookie???


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Let me know when this is over. That bell box looks like ****. I would have cut a box in.


Only if the customers asks for it or it's a really nice house.

You have any idea how hard it is to cut a box in thru sheathing, asbestos siding, and two more laying of siding on top of that?


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Only if the customers asks for it or it's a really nice house.
> 
> You have any idea how hard it is to cut a box in thru sheathing, asbestos siding, and two more laying of siding on top of that?


Yes, yes I do. About 20 minutes. Still under the standard 1 hour call. 480 ****ed his customer for a lousy $30.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

sbrn33 said:


> Yes, yes I do. About 20 minutes. Still under the standard 1 hour call. 480 ****ed his customer for a lousy $30.


Do you properly seal the Tyvek house wrap around that box you cut in?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Do you properly seal the Tyvek house wrap around that box you cut in?


Tyvek? What's that? Some kinda New World Order c*@p? 
It just gets better and better! :whistling2:
P&L


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

Cookie! Cookie! Cookie!!!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

PlugsAndLights said:


> That's it? That's the finish I've been waiting for? I'm unsatisfied
> I don't even feel sleepy:no:
> P&L



You obviously haven't been paying attention.



HackWork said:


> Do you properly seal the Tyvek house wrap around that box you cut in?



What Tyvek?





I guess most of you don't understand the concept here. The idea is to SOLVE the issue. Not just take random stabs at a solution.

What would YOU look for? What steps would you take?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't know. And without any further info, I don't think anyone is going to guess it. It sounds like it could be anything. We would have better odds guessing how many jelly beans are in a jar.


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

The problem was between the switches and the panel?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What Tyvek?


 I was speaking to Sabrina. I was actually defending you, meanie.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I guess most of you don't understand the concept here. The idea is to SOLVE the issue. Not just take random stabs at a solution.
> 
> What would YOU look for? What steps would you take?


Yeah, of course, none of us have to do any troubleshooting.  

You've provided precisely ZERO information that would be even remotely helpful. That's why a whole bunch of very experienced electricians have no idea what's wrong here.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

480sparky said:


> You obviously haven't been paying attention.


 Actually I have, I was just bored.
P&L


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MTW said:


> Yeah, of course, none of us have to do any troubleshooting.
> 
> You've provided precisely ZERO information that would be even remotely helpful. That's why a whole bunch of very experienced electricians have no idea what's wrong here.



I've given you the exact same amount of information I had when I started in on this. Apparently you must think there's no solution. So if this was your customer, would you just say, "I dunno. I give up. Try some flunky off CraigsList, I'm outta here. I gotta demean people on an internet forum."

If this is too simple for you, then don't bother posting any more. It's obviously a waste of your über-supreme time. But there are others who do wish to learn.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> I've given you the exact same amount of information I had when I started in on this.


Except you were there, and we weren't. 




> Apparently you must think there's no solution. So if this was your customer, would you just say, "I dunno. I give up. Try some flunky off CraigsList, I'm outta here. I gotta demean people on an internet forum."


Demean people? Oh, you mean calling you out for your usual condescending attitude? 



> If this is too simple for you, then don't bother posting any more. It's obviously a waste of your über-supreme time. But there are others who do wish to learn.


It's a complete waste of time when you don't provide nearly enough information to make any kind of judgement.


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

This **** is going to take a long time


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I thought this was going to be like a TV detective show, there was enough clues in the video to solve the mystery if you just looked closely enough. 

So real life? That's not going to be nearly as interesting. Like Steve said, I'd unplug the fountain, see if it still happens, disconnect the new outlet, see if it still happens. 

If it still happens with the wiring put back the way it was before I started, I'd look very carefully in and around the box that was tapped for the outside receptacle. 

If it doesn't, I'd run the fountain cord through the window and plug it in the inside receptacle and see if I could still reproduce the problem. 

The decision tree opens up quite a bit at this point.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

splatz said:


> ........
> 
> So real life? That's not going to be nearly as interesting. .......


Sorry that real life isn't like a TV show. But that's why it's real life. It's not here to entertain you. It's here to educate you.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

480sparky said:


> Sorry that real life isn't like a TV show. But that's why it's real life. It's not here to entertain you. It's here to educate you.


You have a lot to learn about Youtube, you could have at least put a hot broad in the video. Remember that for your next video: hot broad, never hurts.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

OK ... First thing I'd do is unplug _everything_ from all receptacles fed from this circuit.

Did you do that, and still have a problem with just the lighting ?


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

What I'm curious is, how much time was spent on this and what did you do first and why?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

emtnut said:


> OK ... First thing I'd do is unplug _everything_ from all receptacles fed from this circuit.
> 
> Did you do that, and still have a problem with just the lighting ?



Since the furnace room light switch being turned on is what first caused the AFCI to trip, that is what I investigated first. After finding and correcting a bad splice on the ungrounded feeding the switch there and the trip issue appeared solved, I didn't bother investigating any further. At least on that trip.

But I was back there again this morning.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

480sparky said:


> Since the furnace room light switch being turned on is what first caused the AFCI to trip, that is what I investigated first. After finding and correcting a bad splice on the ungrounded feeding the switch there and the trip issue appeared solved, I didn't bother investigating any further. At least on that trip.
> 
> But I was back there again this morning.


Is this quote from emt and reply directed to my post?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Majewski said:


> What I'm curious is, how much time was spent on this and what did you do first and why?


The first thing I did today is swap the AFCI breaker with another in the panel. The circuits were not moved, just swapped two AFCIs. I wanted to see if the trip issue moved from crct 7 to crct 11. If so, that would have told me it's a breaker issue.

But as soon as I turned the swapped breaker back on, it tripped. Neither furnace room or bath lights were on.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Interesting. So you found the what but not the why..... Curious.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

OK, the receptacles are all back stabbed on that circuit. When you tied on to the existing receptacle, you either put your new wires on the screws or cut and pigtailed two of the four existing wires, leaving two still back stabbed. The act of jostling the receptacle around was enough to loosen the crappy back stabbed connection. The lighting is down stream of that outlet so when the light(s) was flipped on, it caused enough of an "arc" signature across the receptacle that the AFCI kicked it off.

Bottom line, sh!try back stabbed receptacle that hadn't been disturbed in 6 years until you were there.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

480....

Is that newly installed exterior box mounted to aluminum siding?

And is the meter proximal to it?

~CS~


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Problem- Light in furnace room trips AFCI.
Solution- Don't turn on the light in the furnace room.
Ham radio- Pffffftttt.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Possibly the introduced load of the switch provides enough of a parallel path back to the mbj here ,just needs a tad more tha 30ma

~CS~


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't know what caused it, but the proper fix is to remove the AFCI breaker and install a standard breaker in its place.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

It's no more than a toroidal coil ,and can _only_ do what toroidals do 277

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> 480....
> 
> Is that newly installed exterior box mounted to aluminum siding?
> 
> ...


HardiPlank. The meter is above the panel.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

chicken steve said:


> It's no more than a toroidal coil ,and can _only_ do what toroidals do 277
> 
> ~CS~


No, it's more than a toroidal coil. It also has a super re-tarded circuit board that thinks it sees faults where there are none and is completely blind to the actual problems in a circuit.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

InPhase277 said:


> I don't know what caused it, but the proper fix is to remove the AFCI breaker and install a standard breaker in its place.


This will be the fix 15 years from now when none of them are holding any longer!!


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well i still suspect something is passing current to ground under a load here 

~CS~


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> Well i still suspect something is passing current to ground under a load here
> 
> ~CS~


Yes, but where? And why does turning on lights trip the AFCI?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

a ground wire in the light ALMOST touching something and the heat from the light makes it connect? either that or your cousin dave is just messin with ya:laughing:


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Yes, but where? And why does turning on lights trip the AFCI?


There's an LED lamp in the furnace room that's causing the problem.


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## RGH (Sep 12, 2011)

I stand by my first impression/answer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MTW said:


> There's an LED lamp in the furnace room that's causing the problem.


Normal incandescent.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

So just curios.... Do you normally solve all these troubleshooting calls without being on site? Without tools? 

So it only did it originally with the one light or did it originally do it wth both?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Switched said:


> So just curios.... Do you normally solve all these troubleshooting calls without being on site? Without tools?


Where did I say I did that? 



Switched said:


> So it only did it originally with the one light or did it originally do it wth both?


Originally, it was just the furnace room light. A day later, the bath light caused it to trip.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Just the vanity light, but no other fans or lights in the bathroom?


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

no chicken dinner, i geuss. damn!


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Did you disconnect the new receptacle from the existing when troubleshooting?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Skipping ahead you had a neutral to ground fault in the GFI or bedroom outlet box.

BTW, why did you disable the you tube comments?!  I wanted to tear you apart on your video tapping skills. :laughing:

















:jester::jester:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Is this getting solved tonight, I have to get up early......


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

AcidTrip said:


> Skipping ahead you had a neutral to ground fault in the GFI or bedroom outlet box.


Yep... you cheated.... but that was it. Ground wire had snugged up against the neutral in the back of the GFCI just enough to touch it.

Now.... why did turning the furnace room & bathroom lights cause it to trip?



AcidTrip said:


> BTW, why did you disable the you tube comments?!  I wanted to tear you apart on your video tapping skills. :laughing:
> :jester::jester:


1. I never claimed to be Steven Speilburg or George Lucas.
2. I don't _tap_ videos. Tapping would be annoying to listen to.
3. No one uses tape any more.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Yep... you cheated.... but that was it. Ground wire had snugged up against the neutral in the back of the GFCI just enough to touch it.
> 
> Now.... why did turning the furnace room & bathroom lights cause it to trip?


I was heading towards that solution with this:



A Little Short said:


> Did you disconnect the new receptacle from the existing when troubleshooting?


But you skipped right over and didn't answer me.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> Yep... you cheated.... but that was it. Ground wire had snugged up against the neutral in the back of the GFCI just enough to touch it.
> 
> Now.... why did turning the furnace room & bathroom lights cause it to trip?



It increased the load to the point 30ma exceeded the GFP. The reason being that both the neutral and ground have impedance. So say both had equal impedance and the fault was zero ohms, a 40ma load would result in only 20ma returning via the EGC. That missing 20ma is not enough to trip the 30ma threshold. Toss in unequal impedance or impedance into the fault and it could take several amps to trip the circuit. 





> 1. I never claimed to be Steven Speilburg or George Lucas.
> 2. I don't _tap_ videos. Tapping would be annoying to listen to.
> 3. No one uses tape any more.





:no:



































:laughing::jester:


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Nice...


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

2nd that assessment AT.....


~CS~


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

How did Meadow cheat? Should we string him up?


Am I the only person who thinks 480sparky sounds like such a polite and pleasant person in his videos?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

480sparky said:


> Yep... you cheated.... but that was it. Ground wire had snugged up against the neutral in the back of the GFCI just enough to touch it.


So in case anyone's forgotten, 
the following is cut/pasted from my post #16. 

_Short between the neutral and bond at the new outdoor outlet? 
P&L
__________________
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea._


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> How did Meadow cheat? Should we string him up?
> 
> 
> Am I the only person who thinks 480sparky sounds like such a polite and pleasant person in his videos?


He sounds like what people where I'm from lovingly call a "yankee".


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

480sparky said:


> You obviously haven't been paying attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing: you have confused this with some other forum !


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

furnace and your BR ckt are mwbc. furnace is a standard breaker. furnace has a control transformer wired hot to ground. neutral to ground current wasn't detected by afci until you fixed the bad neutral splice in furnace light box ?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> furnace and your BR ckt are mwbc. furnace is a standard breaker. furnace has a control transformer wired hot to ground. neutral to ground current wasn't detected by afci until you fixed the bad neutral splice in furnace light box ?


Obviously you missed reading a few posts.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

HackWork said:


> How did Meadow cheat? Should we string him up?
> 
> 
> Am I the only person who thinks 480sparky sounds like such a polite and pleasant person in his videos?



 I was joking, I think so to about 480.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

How many hours did 480 make you guys loose here because he hasn't followed my advice to use the new Eaton afci breakers with no gfi circuitry. 

(and perhaps no afci circuitry .............. ) ........ 



Who's your daddy?


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

macmikeman said:


> How many hours did 480 make you guys loose here because he hasn't followed my advice to *use the new Eaton afci breakers with no gfi circuitry. *
> 
> (and perhaps no afci circuitry .............. ) ........
> 
> ...


But that is the only part of the AFCI that really does anything.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> But that is the only part of the AFCI that really does anything.


It does something else too. It passes final inspection and you get paid. 
I'm pragmatic, I like the money. But really, I've said it often enough for Ken to pay attention. Eaton. It's trendy.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

macmikeman said:


> How many hours did 480 make you guys loose here because he hasn't followed my advice to use the new Eaton afci breakers with no gfi circuitry.
> 
> (and perhaps no afci circuitry .............. ) ........
> 
> ...


Uh... I didn't wire the house to begin with. Plus, lemme know if Eatons are classified to put into a Square D QO panel............


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## ampman (Apr 2, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Uh... I didn't wire the house to begin with. Plus, lemme know if Eatons are classified to put into a Square D QO panel............


Burn


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Uh... I didn't wire the house to begin with. Plus, lemme know if Eatons are classified to put into a Square D QO panel............


Yes, there is a Cutler Hammer AFCI that is classified to fit a QO panel. Type CHQ115AFCS is an example.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Dumbest thread ever.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Dumbest thread ever.


I am going to have to ask that you find an avatar before posting again.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

MTW said:


> Dumbest thread ever.



Theres an opening for MX and he is trying to fill it. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

MTW said:


> Dumbest thread ever.


Yet you're still here. Speaks volumes, doesn't it?


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

I came back to see if you (480sparky) had finally acknowledged that 
I'd solved the problem waaaaay back in post #16. Didn't acknowledge 
it at the time, and still haven't. Odd. 

BTW, I liked when you sounded just like Sarah Palin with that 
"come'n atcha" bit. :laughing::lol:

P&L


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Hey 480!
You never said what turning the switches on had to do with the tripping AFCI! What was it???


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

A Little Short said:


> Hey 480!
> You never said what turning the switches on had to do with the tripping AFCI! What was it???


480 had accidentally shorted the neutral and bond behind the new GFI. 
This creates a parallel return path for everything on the cct.. Since
part of the current is not returning on the neutral, the GFI component
within the AFCI is triggered. So, it wouldn't be limited to the light switches,
anything drawing sufficient current on that cct would have triggered 
the GFI/AFCI breaker. 
P&L


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

PlugsAndLights said:


> 480 had accidentally shorted the neutral and bond behind the new GFI.
> This creates a parallel return path for everything on the cct.. Since
> part of the current is not returning on the neutral, the GFI component
> within the AFCI is triggered. So, it wouldn't be limited to the light switches,
> ...


I thought he said they had a little fountain plugged into the GFCI and no mention of trip except lights.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

A Little Short said:


> I thought he said they had a little fountain plugged into the GFCI and no mention of trip except lights.


Valid question. I have some guesses, but I'm probably better off not 
to guess. 
P&L


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## OSSElectric (Sep 28, 2015)

I just had a new house I wired where whenever pulling the speed selector chain on the ceiling fan in the master would trip the breaker.

Thought maybe a loose wire in the fan, or maybe I got a wire with the little screws that hold the light kit together. 

Took it all apart, tried it, and it held. Got it back together without the glass. Still works.

When I put the glass on, it trips when I pull the chain. So I disassemble and reassemble probably 3 times before I figure out that the glass globe is the reason it trips.

With the globe guiding the pull chain, it forced the chain to come in contact with the grounded screwshell of the bulb.

Neutral to ground short. 

So stupid....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

480sparky said:


> Yet you're still here. Speaks volumes, doesn't it?


Like I said, yet another pointless "solve this service call" thread that didn't help anyone.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

MTW said:


> Like I said, yet another pointless "solve this service call" thread that didn't help anyone.


It helped keep my boredom in check!


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

OSSElectric said:


> I just had a new house I wired where whenever pulling the speed selector chain on the ceiling fan in the master would trip the breaker.
> 
> Thought maybe a loose wire in the fan, or maybe I got a wire with the little screws that hold the light kit together.
> 
> ...


Troubleshooting stories are better. Had a photocell cycling on and off. Problem was someone put an inside lamp(that's how I caught it) in an outdoor soffit light. The angle of the beam was wider and hit the photocell.


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## Majewski (Jan 8, 2016)

Bird dog said:


> Troubleshooting stories are better. Had a photocell cycling on and off. Problem was someone put an inside lamp(that's how I caught it) in an outdoor soffit light. The angle of the beam was wider and hit the photocell.


Such a pita. How long did it take to find that?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Majewski,
IIRC I stumbled on it pretty quick. Thankfully, I wasn't pulling my hair out about.


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## Judoka (Oct 13, 2012)

Well, if the home owners word is gospel......and that it never tripped until the addition of the outside receptacle, then i would totally isolate all new wiring from the outlet that you tapped off, and leave as such for a few days. If it does trip, then your new wiring is out of the loop, so to speak. Assuming that the repairs you did on bad connections inside, were all wired as they were originally.


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