# Receptacle Replacement



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

czars said:


> We are on the 2014 NEC. Article 406.4(D)(4). It is my understanding that if a standard receptacle is replaced on a circuit that did not require AFCI protection when it was originally installed but now does, AFCI protection does not have to be installed. In other words, AFCI protection is not required to be installed if it was not required when the circuit was originally installed. Am I right in my understanding?




Filing? Check with the AHJ
Not filing? Replace with same. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I can't give an answer because I don't pay any attention to this part of the code. But I assume that someday this will be required and can imagine how that will go:

_Customer: Hi, I need a broken receptacle replaced, how much will that cost?

Electrician: We can do that for our minimum service call rate of $1XX.

But...

Code requires us to install an AFCI breaker, that will cost an additional $180 if your panel will accept that breaker, or $500-900 for us to install a small subpanel if your existing panel won't accept an AFCI breaker.

Also...

There is a good chance that the old circuit will have at least one, if not multiple instance of the neutral touching a grounded item which will cause the AFCI breaker to immediately trip. Troubleshooting that will generally cost between $200 and $1,000, but can be even more once we start tearing the walls apart.

Repair of the walls and rebuilding of the house is not included.

Or...

We can just ignore the code and I can install the new breaker for you._


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Replacing a receptacle does not require a permit. No permit means no inspection.

Not a difficult decision.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

99cents said:


> Replacing a receptacle does not require a permit. No permit means no inspection.
> 
> Not a difficult decision.


But but but, you have to follow each and every code, don't you? :surprise:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> But but but, you have to follow each and every code, don't you? :surprise:


Show me the rule.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

U.S. guys .... keep calling plugs "receptacles" :biggrin:


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

emtnut said:


> U.S. guys .... keep calling plugs "receptacles" :biggrin:


I have never been more enraged at you than I am right now.:vs_mad:


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

CoolWill said:


> I have never been more enraged at you than I am right now.:vs_mad:


Yeah, it's really a Jack :biggrin:


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

406.4(D) requires you to supply afci protection on any replacement receptacle that is in an area that requires afci. That was also in the 2014


----------



## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 406.4(D) requires you to supply afci protection on any replacement receptacle that is in an area that requires afci. That was also in the 2014


My local regulations require me to pull a permit for such a job. That's not happening either :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Dennis Alwon said:


> 406.4(D) requires you to supply afci protection on any replacement receptacle that is in an area that requires afci. That was also in the 2014


Can you just put in an AFCI receptacle?


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

For comparison, Canadian code only requires the new receptacle to be AFCI, not the whole circuit.


----------



## TheLivingBubba (Jul 23, 2015)

99cents said:


> Can you just put in an AFCI receptacle?



Looks like you can just replace the receptacle with an afci type.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

> HackWork for Moderator
> * Make Electriciantalk Great Again! *


:no::no:


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

emtnut said:


> Yeah, it's really a Jack :biggrin:


What?:001_huh:


----------



## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


MEGA:thumbup:


----------



## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

MTW said:


> :no::no:


:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

I've had to disapprove a number of contractors final inspections for this very issue. I see this rule violated a lot when someone is flipping condo's or apartment buildings. A low budget EC is hired to replace the old panel, replace the lights, switches, and receptacles. 
they install the cheapest receptacles and switches Lowes / Home Depot sells..


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> I've had to disapprove a number of contractors final inspections for this very issue. I see this rule violated a lot when someone is flipping condo's or apartment buildings. A low budget EC is hired to replace the old panel, replace the lights, switches, and receptacles.
> they install the cheapest receptacles and switches Lowes / Home Depot sells..


What is the violation? When replacing a panel do the old circuit need to be AFCI ?

Here (Canada) we can replace “like for like”, no need to AFCI protect old circuits. Only if new wiring is installed do we need to follow new codes.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

eddy current said:


> What is the violation? When replacing a panel do the old circuit need to be AFCI ?
> 
> Here (Canada) we can replace “like for like”, no need to AFCI protect old circuits. Only if new wiring is installed do we need to follow new codes.


Same here. The intent of the nec is no afci's if you don't add to the circuit.


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

manchestersparky said:


> I've had to disapprove a number of contractors final inspections for this very issue. I see this rule violated a lot when someone is flipping condo's or apartment buildings. A low budget EC is hired to replace the old panel, replace the lights, switches, and receptacles.
> they install the cheapest receptacles and switches Lowes / Home Depot sells..


You should be ashamed of yourself. Enforcing the single biggest money-grab scam rule ever invented by the NFPA. You should have had your inspection department amend that out of the code instead. Shame!


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Same here. The intent of the nec is no afci's if you don't add to the circuit.




Here in NY there is a patchwork of AHJ’s that have different views on this. NY is like a box of chocolates. 

Depending upon the job it might be better to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Here in the real world, almost nobody installs AFCI protection when replacing a single device or even multiple devices unless a permit is involved. With K&T wiring, panels stuff with tandems or obsolete design, multiwire circuits, and borrowed neutrals, AFCI is a non-starter.


----------



## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

So happy that my state of MI. has amended that crazy "AFCI everywhere" bull crap


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

eddy current said:


> What is the violation? When replacing a panel do the old circuit need to be AFCI ?
> 
> Here (Canada) we can replace “like for like”, no need to AFCI protect old circuits. Only if new wiring is installed do we need to follow new codes.


Technically when changing a panel you are not altering or adding to a circuit.


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

manchestersparky said:


> Technically when changing a panel you are not altering or adding to a circuit.


Neither are you when replacing a receptacle.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Same here. The intent of the nec is no afci's if you don't add to the circuit.


IF the "Intent" of the NEC is as you state , then why does article 406.4(D)(4) exist ? 
Seems the Intent of the code is to provide AFCI whenever it can be accomplished. Just like the rules for GFCI and tamper Resistant.

The rule was first put into the 2011 NEC as a push from the Consumer Product Safety Commission


----------



## VELOCI3 (Aug 15, 2019)

Anyone use AFCI receptacles yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JoeSparky (Mar 25, 2010)

VELOCI3 said:


> Anyone use AFCI receptacles yet?



I have NEVER even touched one, nevermind installed one. Breakers for permitted jobs. Normal receptacles for service calls. Hell, I only stock non TR ivory GFI outlets in my truck.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

VELOCI3 said:


> Anyone use AFCI receptacles yet?


Nope, and I never will. There is no point to them.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

VELOCI3 said:


> Anyone use AFCI receptacles yet?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. I had to extend an existing circuit in a townhouse renovation where they enclosed a former deck and made a larger master bedroom out of it. It was originally run off a multiwire branch circuit. Permit job. In the one neighborhood where the one inspector who munches on each and every word of code. I could not put an afci on the circuit because only GE has that covered for afci's and it was a different panel brand, and this guy checks that every time. And he demanded all new outlets added to every extended circuit be afci protected. So..... afci receptacle added to pass inspection. I got payed for doing it. I feel raped. But I got payed for it. I'm a slut.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Nope, and I never will. There is no point to them.


Here is the con to that ,,,, If a fire ever happens, and they have a written record of who installed the receptacle outlet that wasn't a afci protected one, (I know , I know, infinitesimal zero chance of that actually gonna happen...) then I could be pulled out of my nursing home hospital bed and drug thru the court system. It could happen.... Maybe....... could........ 










https://www.electriciantalk.com/mem...her-stroll-down-photo-lane/11930-img-1061.jpg


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey administrators. I put two pictures into the above post. The proper way. then hit send. Only one came out as a picture. So , I hit edit and tried again.
Both the second picture's turn out as a link, not a picture. 


This is another glitch in the system which of course affects me since I love plastering 15 different meme's into a single post sometimes. I think you should get Hackwork on this immediately to fix it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

You just have to know how to do it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Here is the con to that ,,,, If a fire ever happens, and they have a written record of who installed the receptacle outlet that wasn't a afci protected one, (I know , I know, infinitesimal zero chance of that actually gonna happen...) then I could be pulled out of my nursing home hospital bed and drug thru the court system. It could happen.... Maybe....... could........


How would an AFCI receptacle stop that from happening?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> How would an AFCI receptacle stop that from happening?


Won't stop the fire. Might stop the litigation if you do it as called for in the code book. Might.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

macmikeman said:


> Won't stop the fire. Might stop the litigation if you do it as called for in the code book. Might.


An AFCI receptacle protects what is plugged into it, not the receptacle or building wiring that feeds it, no?


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

HackWork said:


> An AFCI receptacle protects what is plugged into it, not the receptacle or building wiring that feeds it, no?


I believe the intent is for the downstream wiring connected to the load side of the afci is supposed to be protected from arcing faults. Whether that actually happens or not is the real question. So far , we have seen some tall tails told by manufacturers that turned out to be lie's.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HackWork said:


> An AFCI receptacle protects what is plugged into it, not the receptacle or building wiring that feeds it, no?


It has a Line and Load like a GFCI receptacle. By code (Canadian anyway) it has to be fed with armored cable or EMT with wire inside (pretty sure that’s what it says; I’m not going to look it up).


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

99cents said:


> It has a Line and Load like a GFCI receptacle. By code (Canadian anyway) it has to be fed with armored cable or EMT with wire inside (pretty sure thatâ€™️s what it says; Iâ€™️m not going to look it up).


Correct. 

But if you add a receptacles to an existing circuit that does not have AFCI protection, our code allows us to use an AFCI receptacle for protection, no mechanical protection on the wiring required.


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

And again, just for comparison, Canadian code does not require AFCI protection for lighting, only receptacles rated 125 volts and 20 amps or less. Not including receptacles for kitchen fridges, kitchen counters, washrooms and sump pumps.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

eddy current said:


> And again, just for comparison, Canadian code does not require AFCI protection for lighting, only receptacles rated 125 volts and 20 amps or less. Not including receptacles for kitchen fridges, kitchen counters, washrooms and sump pumps.


Well... I bet a billion dollars that all of Canada will burn to the ground because they don't have the same safety standards as the NEC. 

The NEC you know is backed up by a complete and thorough understanding of electricity, science, stuff, more stuff, and more science. Okay, and a lot of grift.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

HackWork said:


> An AFCI receptacle protects what is plugged into it, not the receptacle or building wiring that feeds it, no?



This is in "Theory"
As mentioned, it protects everything down stream of the device. Whether a CB or receptacle. 

It is suppose to protect from mice and squirrel damage caused by chewing on the cables which can cause a low current parallel arc. The guy using 4 inch nails while installing chair railing which can cause a low current series arc. Aluminum wire not properly connected to a device can also cause an arc. All of these arc faults could be below the circuit breaker threshold and never trip the circuit breaker. An arc is an arc and it could burn at 1200 degrees. 5 amps or 50 amps. A normal circuit breaker does not know if it is an arc or a light bulb.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> This is in "Theory"
> As mentioned, it protects everything down stream of the device. Whether a CB or receptacle.
> 
> It is suppose to protect from mice and squirrel damage caused by chewing on the cables which can cause a low current parallel arc. The guy using 4 inch nails while installing chair railing which can cause a low current series arc. Aluminum wire not properly connected to a device can also cause an arc. All of these arc faults could be below the circuit breaker threshold and never trip the circuit breaker. An arc is an arc and it could burn at 1200 degrees. 5 amps or 50 amps. A normal circuit breaker does not know if it is an arc or a light bulb.


Are you saying you found an AFCI that can actually detect arcs ???? :vs_laugh:


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

emtnut said:


> Are you saying you found an AFCI that can actually detect arcs ???? :vs_laugh:


I said " in theory".
When you look at the sales promotions it sounds like the AFCI devices are better than sliced bread. Do they actually work? IDK. But I have seen a lot of small fires that started from frayed cables in the attic. My Grandmother's house had a fire started in the attic from squirrels chewing on the wires. With today's technology, they should be able to come up with something to protect the wiring if the fault current is less than the breaker value.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> With today's technology, they should be able to come up with something to protect the wiring if the fault current is less than the breaker value.


Ya ... you'd think eh :biggrin:

GE's new "FIRE BREAKERS" must thou :surprise:


----------



## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

kb1jb1 said:


> I said " in theory".
> 
> When you look at the sales promotions it sounds like the AFCI devices are better than sliced bread. Do they actually work? IDK. But I have seen a lot of small fires that started from frayed cables in the attic. My Grandmother's house had a fire started in the attic from squirrels chewing on the wires. With today's technology, they should be able to come up with something to protect the wiring if the fault current is less than the breaker value.



They do. It’s called GFCI.

The funny part is when they tell people GFCI protects against a shock. It does but only to trip the breaker faster after you get shocked!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

Forge Boyz said:


> Neither are you when replacing a receptacle.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


you are correct. The issue is not the altering of the circuit rule , but rather the replacement of receptacle rule...……….


----------



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

manchestersparky said:


> you are correct. The issue is not the altering of the circuit rule , but rather the replacement of receptacle rule...……….


The point is, we can change a whole panel- no arc faults required. Changed one lousy little receptacle and it must be arc fault protected. What is the difference? They are both just replacing parts. 

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

GFCI protects against shock or voltage leakage only. An AFCI protects against arcing which could lead to a fire. A GFCI will not protect against a high resistance short between the white and black wires. It sees it as a load.


----------



## CoolWill (Jan 5, 2019)

kb1jb1 said:


> GFCI protects against shock or voltage leakage only. An AFCI protects against arcing which could lead to a fire. A GFCI will not protect against a high resistance short between the white and black wires. It sees it as a load.


A glowing connection will degrade and cause a ground fault long before arcing results. A GFCI is way better at preventing fires than AFCIs.


----------



## Seau1355 (Jul 24, 2017)

jarrydee said:


> So happy that my state of MI. has amended that crazy "AFCI everywhere" bull crap







Not everywhere. Only in 1 and 2 family dwellings. They are still required in condos, apartments, etc...


----------

