# 3 Phase Panel Swap Before & After



## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi guys,
This is a before and after pic of a three phase panel swap. A note there are only 5 zip ties I put in to hold the THHN in place. I also used my PL300 Label Maker to mark the panel as well as the disconnect location. My pipe work is just as clean and I also threw in a photo of the way I wire my fire alarm panels. Taking pride is safety. Total job time was 5 hours by myself.









































http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/joedreamliner787
/Labeled.jpg


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Clean, but I have to ask why you swapped out the panel? You didn't increase the feeders and the old panel looks to be brand new. 

I see now, you got rid of the tandems...


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

k_buz said:


> Clean, but I have to ask why you swapped out the panel? You didn't increase the feeders and the old panel looks to be brand new.
> 
> I see now, you got rid of the tandems...


Yes got rid of the tandems and just went to a 30CKT panel from a 24 because the customer added another 5 HP 3PH Motor and I needed extra space to separate a few of the old 20AMP CKT's. The tandems were Murray and forced to fit in the GE panel because there are small plastic tabs toward the back that the last electrician cut to fit the tandems. Tandems are not supposed to be used in Commercial applications. The old panel was older and believe it or not the "new" panel I pulled out of a Dunkin Donuts that was closing and the panel is in great shape . Customer is happy instead of having a sub panel and the fact I rewired the entire panel and only charged him 150.00 for a used 3PH panel instead of 300+.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Missing a bond screw.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

That one uses the little bent offset tab?


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Nice clean neat job.. :thumbsup:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Missing a bond screw.


Yes, EGC buss not bonded to enclosure???


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Siemens or Murray panel and you put all the GE breakers back in? Looks neat though.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Guys, I am 100% aware the bonding screw is not in the photos. I finished the panel
turned power on and measured all conductors and then each circuit and put the cover on and took the last photo. I had ran to Home Depot to pickup a bonding screw and there was no way I was leaving the panel open while I was gone. Bonding screw is installed.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

nrp3 said:


> Siemens or Murray panel and you put all the GE breakers back in? Looks neat though.


No this panel is a GE. All breakers are GE except for the 3 Pole 50AMP which is a Siemens breaker. It will be swapped out tomorrow because no supply house is open on Sunday and I work 7 days a week. Unfortunately Home Depot no longer carries any 3 Phase product that I can get in a pinch


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> No this panel is a GE. All breakers are GE except for the 3 Pole 50AMP which is a Siemens breaker. It will be swapped out tomorrow because no supply house is open on Sunday and I work 7 days a week. Unfortunately Home Depot no longer carries any 3 Phase product that I can get in a pinch


i have never seen a painted 3ph copper buss ge panel, just got a couple ge cans and they are all steel( no gray paint) but looks good otherwise


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Its not the can that makes me scratch my head. That looks like a 30/40 buss. GE tandems would have t shaped tabs not slotted ones that I see there. At least now the GE busses are tin plated, gray in color.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

joedreamliner787 said:


> No this panel is a GE....


I don't believe it. GE does not use slotted bus bars, since their "tandem" type breakers use side bars.

I'm calling your bluff on this: Please provide the GE catalog number of the new box you have shown. 

IF I'm wrong about this, I will publicly apologize for doubting you on this.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Why on earth did you twist those fire alarm conductors up like that? It looks ridiculous and is totally unnecessary.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

It looks like a Murray 30/40 to me.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> It looks like a Murray 30/40 to me.


Yeah, that's a Murray or Siemens panel. GE breakers in a Siemens panel =


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

Peter D said:


> GE breakers and panel =


Here I fixed it for you!


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## Sparky J (May 17, 2011)

It does look murray or siemens panel though.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Why on earth did you twist those fire alarm conductors up like that? It looks ridiculous and is totally unnecessary.


Not it's not ridiculous. It's a fire alarm panel that most electricians screw up the programming and also t-tap the Nac CKT or initiating device circuits as I have seen, only supervising one circuit or even worse wiring zones in an alarm panel in parallel. In fact we did a Euro Wax Center and the other electrician was asking me how to wire a testing station for a duct smoke because he knew I have a lot of fire alarm background experience. Twisting the wires on an addressable fire alarm circuit is good practice as it's a data loop just like cat 5 and it has been proven to reduce cross talk after it has exited the sheath. I started as a low voltage guy for Protection One for 3 years and then moving onto high voltage working with Rizzo Electric & Nycon. So no it's not ridicious and EVERY single inspector who sees my fire alarm including the fire marshal love my work because of the increased detail. I use the 6 page NFPA 72 inspection report right out of the book instead of the one sheet most companies use and 9 out of 10 the fire marshal says "I have never get thorough paper work like this"


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> I don't believe it. GE does not use slotted bus bars, since their "tandem" type breakers use side bars.
> 
> I'm calling your bluff on this: Please provide the GE catalog number of the new box you have shown.
> 
> IF I'm wrong about this, I will publicly apologize for doubting you on this.


Next time I go to the site I will pull the catalog number from the panel. Even the cover for the door had a GE logo on the cabinet lock.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

After studying the pics, I have a couple questions.

What size breaker is feeding this panel?
What size wires are feeding this panel?
What size FMC are the feeders in? (or is that MC)


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

k_buz said:


> After studying the pics, I have a couple questions.
> 
> What size breaker is feeding this panel?
> What size wires are feeding this panel?
> What size FMC are the feeders in? (or is that MC)


Hi K_buz.
I did not do the original install but here are the answers:
The disconnect breaker from the 3PH distribution is 100AMP
The wire size is #4 Copper
Yes it's MC Cable


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm assuming this is a sub panel with other loads on the service when I say this, but #4 is only good for 90A and I would think by looking at the breaker sizes, you are pushing every bit of that.


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## NacBooster29 (Oct 25, 2010)

You're supposed to maintain 1/4" between line voltage and power limited cables. Pet manufacture. Looks neat though.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Not it's not ridiculous.


Yeah, it is.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, it is.


To each their own. It's still clean, neat and has a purpose.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

NacBooster29 said:


> You're supposed to maintain 1/4" between line voltage and power limited cables. Pet manufacture. Looks neat though.


There actually is a whole inch of clearance because the MC is pushed to the back of the panel while the fire alarm cable is toward the front and it's okay to cross perpendicular to the cable as well. Thanks for the kind response on the neatness.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Siemens panel. No doubt about it. :thumbup:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

k_buz said:


> I'm assuming this is a sub panel with other loads on the service when I say this, but #4 is only good for 90A and I would think by looking at the breaker sizes, you are pushing every bit of that.


Hi k_buz,
Yes this is a sub panel with other loads on the service but please note they run kettles and pots and no more than two at a time. After doing an amp check at their full peak they run no more 78 amps during production and the extra pots and kettles (1 of each) are on stand by and only used if one were to go down. Believe me I tried to talk to the customer to bring 200AMPS to the panel so they can double their production . They are a couple of 20 amp breakers for a roof outlet, exhaust fan etc.. minimal.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Siemens panel. No doubt about it. :thumbup:


Even better if it is  but it's odd the door fits and has a GE logo on it and I remember the door schematic was GE. I was just as puzzled. Anyhow I will get to the bottom of it tomorrow and if needed I will swap all the GE breakers for Siemens because I thought the same thing that GE does not paint their cans just like another user.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> No this panel is a GE. All breakers are GE except for the 3 Pole 50AMP which is a Siemens breaker.


At least you got one breaker right! :thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Even better if it is  but it's odd the door fits and has a GE logo on it and I remember the door schematic was GE. I was just as puzzled. Anyhow I will get to the bottom of it tomorrow and if needed I will swap all the GE breakers for Siemens because I thought the same thing that GE does not paint their cans just like another user.


That's definitely Siemens. The neutral bars tell the story. Older Siemens panel.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> At least you got one breaker right! :thumbsup:


:laughing: Siemens is much better quality and I think someone replaced the door with a GE door because maybe the panel cover was lost at one time.


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## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

Nice job on the fire alarm panel!


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

jeffmoss26 said:


> Nice job on the fire alarm panel!


Thanks! As you saw my other post  but one guy on here thinks it's ridiculous that I twisted my conductors. Every marshal and inspector that has seen my work stares at my panel with great pride. I'm 27 years old and have gained much respect in CT from the AHJ's etc and now they don't even check my work because they know I REFUSE to cut corners even if it cost me my own time and sometimes money or if I need take a little away from the job at my expense.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Thanks! As you saw my other post  but one guy on here thinks it's ridiculous that I twisted my conductors.


Yeah, that was me, and I still do. There's a line between being neat and going overboard. I work in loads of fire alarm panels and have never seen anything as crazy as that.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Thanks! As you saw my other post  but one guy on here thinks it's ridiculous that I twisted my conductors. Every marshal and inspector that has seen my work stares at my panel with great pride. I'm 27 years old and have gained much respect in CT from the AHJ's etc and now they don't even check my work because they know* I REFUSE to cut corners *even if it cost me my own time and sometimes money or if I need take a little away from the job at my expense.


Some might call installing a used panel and the wrong breakers cutting corners. Maybe the AHJ should be looking a little closer. :thumbup:


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## Executive (Aug 11, 2012)

electricmanscott said:


> Some might call installing a used panel and the wrong breakers cutting corners. Maybe the AHJ should be looking a little closer. :thumbup:


This.

I'd be concerned that any problem with this panel is a dead end because you have no vendor-distributor-manufacturer chain to fall back on. 

Chris


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

Peter D said:


> Yeah, that was me, and I still do. There's a line between being neat and going overboard. I work in loads of fire alarm panels and have never seen anything as crazy as that.


ive done alot of alarm in my past and was taught the same way to twist the pairs up ( with a cordless too) i think its neat looking and easy to install


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

denny3992 said:


> ive done alot of alarm in my past and was taught the same way to twist the pairs up ( with a cordless too) i think its neat looking and easy to install


What a pointless waste of time.


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## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

Would you rather see a panel that looks like this?


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Why on earth did you twist those fire alarm conductors up like that? It looks ridiculous and is totally unnecessary.


:thumbdown:





Don't listen to these guys. Looks good. Easier to troubleshoot. :thumbsup:


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

You fused #4 at 100a =fail
no bushing = fail


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

donselec said:


> no bushing = fail


No bushing on what? They're not required on cables, only raceways.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

# 4 or larger


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

donselec said:


> # 4 or larger


I'll give you one million dollars if you can show me the code reference that requires them on cabled wiring methods.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

wouldnt 300.4g apply ??


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## Hawkrod (Mar 19, 2012)

Peter D said:


> I'll give you one million dollars if you can show me the code reference that requires them on cabled wiring methods.


Looks like somebody is going to have to man up and pay that million bucks! LOL Yup, #4 so 300.4G clearly seems to apply.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't think so (and it pains me to agree with him).

"unless the conductors are separated from the fitting or raceway by identified insulating material that is securely fastened in place."

I interpret that as the out sheathing is acceptable.


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## donselec (May 7, 2011)

does Siemens list ge breakers for use in their panels now?


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

k_buz said:


> I don't think so (and it pains me to agree with him).


Sorry to have spoiled your day.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

BBQ said:


> What a pointless waste of time.


I'd tell a guy I saw doing that to move it or lose it. And by "it" I mean their job.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Hawkrod said:


> Looks like somebody is going to have to man up and pay that million bucks! LOL Yup, #4 so 300.4G clearly seems to apply.


300.4G doesn't apply as the wording is specific to raceways, and MC is a cable wiring method, not a raceway. If it was FMC, with the conductors not factory installed, it would need a bonding bushing. Read the heading for 300.4g again, and then go to definitions and read the definition of a raceway. It's also why you don't need a bushing with the dreaded SE cable.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Fredman said:


> :thumbdown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, why listen to a guy with close to 30 years of fire alarm installing and service experiance.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

BBQ said:


> Yeah, why listen to a guy with close to 30 years of fire alarm installing and service experiance.



Well Bob that was a very quick reply.... :laughing: :no:

For your own limited information I have over 30 years under my belt in the security/CCTV world so you can stuff that in your BBQ and smoke it!


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## Norcal (Mar 22, 2007)

That panel may even be a early 1980's Gould /ITE, Siemens bought ITE around 1983-84, Gould was trying to make only ITE breakers fit their panels, that did not last long,as other manufacturers made the mods to their breakers to circumvent that.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

around here. it's BLUE BLACK RED across the top of the panel. We also do NOT use grounds in EMT. or MC. EMT and BX for grounds.


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

Spark Master said:


> around here. it's BLUE BLACK RED across the top of the panel. We also do NOT use grounds in EMT. or MC. EMT and BX for grounds.


Whatever boats your float, guy. The 'lectricity doesn't know what color wire its flowing through.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

Spark Master said:


> around here. it's BLUE BLACK RED across the top of the panel. We also do NOT use grounds in EMT. or MC. EMT and BX for grounds.


:blink:

Okie dokie. I'm totally ok with no separate ground wire in EMT, but MC lacking a separate ground is not MC cable at all, but rather AC cable (often called BX.)


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Fredman said:


> Well Bob that was a very quick reply.... :laughing: :no:
> 
> For your own limited information I have over 30 years under my belt in the security/CCTV world so you can stuff that in your BBQ and smoke it!


And with all that experience you think trying to troubleshoot is easier if the wires are all twisted together?

How odd.:whistling2:


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

*BBQ: And with all that experience you think trying to troubleshoot is easier if the wires are all twisted together?*

*How odd.:whistling2:*


Another quick witty retort. :no: 

To me, odd is a supposedly busy/successful electrician 
joining a forum and creating almost 17,000 replies in two years.

I take it back. That's just freaky. :laughing:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Fredman said:


> :thumbdown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got it. Any of my panels or my techs that service it can do it extremely quickly and cuts down on the service time which makes the customer happy since they are paying by the hour for troubleshooting.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> I'd tell a guy I saw doing that to move it or lose it. And by "it" I mean their job.


Yeah sure, funny thing is my guys and myself can wire any fire alarm and knock that out in less than 30 min. It's all about labeling the cables and knowing the panel. Addressable panels move even quicker.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

donselec said:


> You fused #4 at 100a =fail
> no bushing = fail


You not knowing that a bushing is not required = fail....isn't that the lingo
kids are using today? :no:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Fredman said:


> Well Bob that was a very quick reply.... :laughing: :no:
> 
> For your own limited information I have over 30 years under my belt in the security/CCTV world so you can stuff that in your BBQ and smoke it!



Just because Bob has 30 years of experience doesn't mean he was ever a good installer. lol


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> You got it. Any of my panels or my techs that service it can do it extremely quickly and cuts down on the service time which makes the customer happy since they are paying by the hour for troubleshooting.


Joe, you are dreaming.

There is no way twisting the wires up makes troubleshooting faster.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

BBQ said:


> And with all that experience you think trying to troubleshoot is easier if the wires are all twisted together?
> 
> How odd.:whistling2:



Bob, If you cut the minimal amount of tie straps I have in my panels
you can easily work on the wiring. You make it sound as if all the conductors out of each jacket are ALL twisted together and that you will have to untwist them all in order to remove them. Who did your fire alarm work for?

Correct me if I am wrong but you sound like the type who wants to get in and get out and I bet you just stuff the wires back in the panels. We do complete board swaps in 20min if there is a problem with main panel..So yes it is easier and I have worked in many types of panels and it's harder to sift through a rats nest of cables all pushed into the panel tugging on them to find out what terminals they are going to. 

Since you have 30 years of "experience" what is the only fire alarm panel today that is manufactured that has no limitation on wiring types including THHN?


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Joe, you are dreaming.
> 
> There is no way twisting the wires up makes troubleshooting faster.


Listen Bob, I own the company and I know exactly how long my techs are on site. Anytime they walk into our installations to troubleshoot they are in and out. Anytime they go and troubleshoot panels that are a mess or wired cleanly they end up spending more time...why? Very simple as I stated, tugging on wires etc..


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

BBQ said:


> Joe, you are dreaming.
> 
> There is no way twisting the wires up makes troubleshooting faster.


Come on Bob since you are so quick to answer. Answer the question with 30_ years.

"Since you have 30 years of "experience" what is the only fire alarm panel today that is manufactured that has no limitation on wiring types including THHN?"


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

jeffmoss26 said:


> Would you rather see a panel that looks like this?



Looks like someone was to lazy to make a simple RJ45 or was just lazy. I don't see a date on the battery either. Wires come in on diagonal and I bet there is no plastic bushing there either. It's not the worst but still not acceptable in my book. Thanks for sharing!


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Fredman said:


> *BBQ: And with all that experience you think trying to troubleshoot is easier if the wires are all twisted together?*
> 
> *How odd.:whistling2:*
> 
> ...


Good call :thumbup: We(My dad and I) have a very successful company and it's because clients know we care about them. We constantly
attend new trainings and we are also seeking to learn more. 

With Bob's 30+ years he couldn't answer my little trivia question. "what is the only fire alarm panel today that is manufactured that has no limitation on wiring types including THHN?" The answer is: Silent Knight panels can be used for very old retrofits without any issues were a questionable wire type comes into play and inspectors do allow it. By doing so we can save the customers 1000's were we are able to convert the wiring slowly to fire limited cabling. BBQ Bob already knew that because he sits in front of his computer all day eating BBQ and posting online at all hours of the day. Tells me he wasn't a very good tech since I tend to believe he/she isn't working. If he is retired he's old school but judging by his posts using acronyms like WTF tells me otherwise.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> I don't believe it. GE does not use slotted bus bars, since their "tandem" type breakers use side bars.
> 
> I'm calling your bluff on this: Please provide the GE catalog number of the new box you have shown.
> 
> IF I'm wrong about this, I will publicly apologize for doubting you on this.


Thanks kbsparky and you were right. After making a few calls to both GE & Siemens it has been discovered the panel is a Siemens panel. I have installed all listed Siemens breakers and ordered the correct door for the panel. We never install Siemens panels.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

electricmanscott said:


> Some might call installing a used panel and the wrong breakers cutting corners. Maybe the AHJ should be looking a little closer. :thumbup:


It's all about customer service. Client needed a panel and saved money on perfect good working panel and also knew it was used. All knockout seals and the correct listed breakers are already installed as well as the correct door is now on order. It's not cutting corners. Cutting corners is not following up and just walking away. :thumbsup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

The real question is, who cares what panel manufacturer doesn't have limitations on wire methods? Plus, they are all pretty much owned by Honeywell anyway. Did you think you were going to discredit bob by throwing out a pointless obscure fact?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Come on Bob since you are so quick to answer. Answer the question with 30_ years.
> 
> "Since you have 30 years of "experience" what is the only fire alarm panel today that is manufactured that has no limitation on wiring types including THHN?"



No idea at all.

We install many panel brands and models, I tend to read the requirements for each. 

Now care to tell me how twisting up the wires in a panel helps with troubleshooting?

If you twist them up because you like to, that is cool, we each have our own ways but please don't try to BS us and say it makes anything faster.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but you sound like the type who wants to get in and get out and I bet you just stuff the wires back in the panels.


That's not BBQ's type, that's my type.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Yeah sure, funny thing is my guys and myself can wire any fire alarm and knock that out in less than 30 min. It's all about labeling the cables and knowing the panel. Addressable panels move even quicker.


And? The twisting is still a waste. But if you don't mind doing stuff like that at a loss of time and money to you then what ever floats your boat :laughing:


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## jeffmoss26 (Dec 8, 2011)

Yeah joe, just lazy...no bushing on the connector, didn't even bother to find a shorter cord.
I put the RJ31X in as I take care of the phone system at this customer's office.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

BBQ said:


> No idea at all.
> 
> We install many panel brands and models, I tend to read the requirements for each.
> 
> ...





joedreamliner787 said:


> Not it's not ridiculous. It's a fire alarm panel that most electricians screw up the programming and also t-tap the Nac CKT or initiating device circuits as I have seen, only supervising one circuit or even worse wiring zones in an alarm panel in parallel. In fact we did a Euro Wax Center and the other electrician was asking me how to wire a testing station for a duct smoke because he knew I have a lot of fire alarm background experience. *Twisting the wires on an addressable fire alarm circuit is good practice as it's a data loop just like cat 5 and it has been proven to reduce cross talk after it has exited the sheath.* I started as a low voltage guy for Protection One for 3 years and then moving onto high voltage working with Rizzo Electric & Nycon. So no it's not ridicious and EVERY single inspector who sees my fire alarm including the fire marshal love my work because of the increased detail. I use the 6 page NFPA 72 inspection report right out of the book instead of the one sheet most companies use and 9 out of 10 the fire marshal says "I have never get thorough paper work like this"



In addition to the more important technical reasons listed above by Joe for twisting:

Troubleshooting or modifying panel wiring is easier simply because both associated wires remain together from point A to B inside the panel. You don't have to search and pair together wires from a larger clutch. For the experienced, it takes less than a couple minutes to spin them up. It makes it easier to dress down and terminate cleanly and efficiently as well. This was standard practice taught to me years ago when I was wiring countless industrial control panels for Alarmex/Checkpoint. But what do I know...  



Man that guy is just a Badger sometimes aint he ? ... :whistling2: :laughing:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Fredman said:


> In addition to the more important technical reasons listed above by Joe for twisting:
> 
> Troubleshooting or modifying panel wiring is easier simply because both associated wires remain together from point A to B inside the panel. You don't have to search and pair together wires from a larger clutch. For the experienced, it takes less than a couple minutes to spin them up. It makes it easier to dress down and terminate cleanly and efficiently as well. This was standard practice taught to me years ago when I was wiring countless industrial control panels for Alarmex/Checkpoint. But what do I know...
> 
> ...


He is just jealous he can't work as fast & his work isn't as clean.. He also probably thinks we spin them by hand . If he worked for me I would have fired him before he ever got to the interview because someone who thinks something is a waste of time because someone takes pride in their work tells me this guy would never care about the image of the company he works for.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Jlarson said:


> And? The twisting is still a waste. But if you don't mind doing stuff like that at a loss of time and money to you then what ever floats your boat :laughing:


I'm telling you right now it's not a loss of time and money. I can wire the panel just as fast as you can but I guarantee you my panel will be cleaner :laughing:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

erics37 said:


> That's not BBQ's type, that's my type.


Don't insult yourself. I saw pictures of your work in recent posts and you are doing good work.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

joedreamliner787 said:


> Don't insult yourself. I saw pictures of some of work in recent posts and you are doing some good work.


Once in a while. It's the pictures I _don't_ post that really bring the truth out :laughing:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

joedreamliner787 said:


> He is just jealous he can't work as fast & his work isn't as clean.. He also probably thinks we spin them by hand . If he worked for me I would have fired him before he ever got to the interview because someone who thinks something is a waste of time because someone takes pride in their work tells me this guy would never care about the image of the company he works for.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

BBQ said:


> No idea at all.
> 
> We install many panel brands and models, I tend to read the requirements for each.
> 
> ...


No idea? With 30+ years I'm sure you would have known that. Of course you can read the requirements of each for new installs. But retrofits require some more information in regards to compatibility. Now that I can answer most questions off the top of my head you are still looking up and researching all the panels out there. You are asking questions when I already have the answers :no: 

BS? Did you know that a Firelite LS panel actually had less impedance at the head end because of the twisted wiring. We performed the test on the same circuit for both twisted and untwisted. If you call Firelite tech support they will also tell you it has an advantage. Did you know that any cable twisted ANYWHERE within the cable has lower impedance? What's BS is guys like you who can careless about their work or doing research in finding ways to install a better and safer product. It's about being passionate at what you do. Do yourself a favor and stop badgering yourself because the more you write the more you insult yourself. Just because you have 30+ years doesn't mean you know what you are doing. I have 10 years in the industry and I can tell you my company is growing because we know what we are doing and I know techs including myself that will make your 30+ years make you feel like an apprentice again (if your are licensed). The best thing about young guys who are in their 20's entering the field are getting caught in new/old school. Sure, we have apps that can calculate anything or we can generate a quote on our phone by connecting to our remote server and email it to a customer on the spot digitally signed but if you took it all way we can do it with pen and paper. Some of us young guys are smarter, faster and more accurate just like the pipe levels we use with a laser instead of just my eye or a conventional level. We use technology and new tools to our advantage to adopt new techniques that do increase productivity and profit. I stay open to new ideas and I'm constantly learning wtih certifications that fill a wall. You have a lot to learn so keep moving.:laughing:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

erics37 said:


> Once in a while. It's the pictures I _don't_ post that really bring the truth out :laughing:


Very true :laughing:


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

And what was the reason for your post? :laughing: Firing someone is not about being tough. Recognizing if a worker will be a good fit for the company and will maintain a good reputation is key to companies success. Because we are a small local company we pay our guys very well and they are happy. At the end of the day they are putting out quality work and when that happens the quantity of work automatically comes from quality. Word of mouth travels very fast and instead of spending a ton of money in advertising to sell BS to our clients we just let our work speak for itself. When a client sees our panels even though "it's a waste of time" they remember how clean it is so actually it's not a loss of money and time. We keep pictures of our competitors wired panels and show the clients the before and after and they always have a reaction. We took over $10,000 in work because I called an inspector in to look at the wiring tat was done illegally in a fire alarm system using unsupervised power supplies with resistors in the panel (not class A) and guess what? Inspector called the company who did the work and went to every job they did in the town and found nothing but hacked work. Guess who took over the accounts?? Now we have the monitoring, fire inspections, happy inspectors, happy clients that are safe. We all win. Moral of the story: Your post was useless.


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## Fredman (Dec 2, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


>



BBQ? No way. :whistling2: :laughing:

He's more chiwawa like. All bark.


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## joedreamliner787 (Sep 27, 2011)

Fredman said:


> BBQ? No way. :whistling2: :laughing:
> 
> He's more chiwawa like. All bark.



Fredman, thank you for your posts. It's funny how pictures of someone's causes a bunch of bs and sad thing some guys don't even deserve a license but hey, at the end of the day I know my job is done in the best possible manner and that's all that matters. I have seen panels where fire alarm techs just strap a resistor in the panel just because they can't figure out the trouble. It's sad how it all comes down to dollars and cents and furthermore it's even worse that our who field is about safety and some really don't care. Oh well, one day it will come back to bite them when someone gets hurt. Have a good one!


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