# Have client from UK. How do they wire there?



## JBrzoz00

Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing". 

Pictures would be great.


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## HARRY304E

JBrzoz00 said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".
> 
> Pictures would be great.


That's a good way to drive up the cost of the job.


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## JBrzoz00

Yeah, I basically found the fixtures the lighting designer from the uk specd and found stuff that was made here. But even looking online it looks like all recessed is cut in after drywall, and the fixture boxes are all surface mounted.


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## MTW

JBrzoz00 said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".
> 
> Pictures would be great.


For starters, it's nothing like North American wiring. :laughing: They use 240 volts, ring circuits and fusible plugs, European color coding, their romex-style cable is much closer to UF cable, their load centers use IEC components and DIN rail (much like an industrial control panel), they don't use wire nuts, they use "trunking" (similar to our wire mold) and they talk with an English accent.


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## zac

Well if it's anything like their driving, I would watch out for reverse polarity!But seriously I thought the voltage was quite a bit higher.


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## great68

Are you still looking ?


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## FlyingSparks

I was always fascinated by the ring circuits. 2.5mm wire (13awg-ish) on a 32a OCPD, that's a lot different haha


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## retiredsparktech

FlyingSparks said:


> I was always fascinated by the ring circuits. 2.5mm wire (13awg-ish) on a 32a OCPD, that's a lot different haha


 Ring circuits are supposed to start and finish at the same point. So, in reality the conductors are in parallel, throughout the entire run. That would double the ampacity of the circuit, unless the circuit is compromised by miss-wiring.


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## great68

retiredsparktech said:


> Ring circuits are supposed to start and finish at the same point. So, in reality the conductors are in parallel, throughout the entire run. That would double the ampacity of the circuit, unless the circuit is compromised by miss-wiring.



Yep. I have worked with these my whole life so are used to this configuration and the numerous faults due to a broken ring (quite common)
A concern nowadays is over here, in kitchens people are wanting a switch panel for all the appliances (for isolation for our regs) that has labeled switches in one place . This means the ring could be very unbalanced as say one leg has a 5m run to the board and the other 30m round the kitchen outlets also. Our 'normal' cable for this is 2.5mm which generally can carry 20A max.


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## Enanosky44

JBrzoz00 said:


> Yeah, I basically found the fixtures the lighting designer from the uk specd and found stuff that was made here. But even looking online it looks like all recessed is drrtcut in after drywall, and the fixture boxes are all surface mounted.






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## FlyingSparks

Enanosky44 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using electriciantalk.com


I see.


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## martinsparkylee

I am an electrician in the uk, what is it you want to know exactly


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## Wirenuting

martinsparkylee said:


> I am an electrician in the uk, what is it you want to know exactly


Welcome to ET,
Careful about zombie threads.


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## martinsparkylee

Zombie threads? Sorry new to this


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## Wirenuting

martinsparkylee said:


> Zombie threads? Sorry new to this


That's ok, we all walk before we run.


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## Black Dog

martinsparkylee said:


> Zombie threads? Sorry new to this


The thread is 7 months old and was no longer active. I'll bet the OP has not been here since then too, so he probably will not answer your post.

Welcome to the forum:thumbsup:


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## martinsparkylee

Ah I see thanks I get what your saying


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## webelec

I call it 'necro posting'


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## chicken steve

martinsparkylee said:


> I am an electrician in the uk, what is it you want to know exactly



I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.

Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>










Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?

~CS~


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## Voltron

chicken steve said:


> I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.
> 
> Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>
> 
> Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?
> 
> ~CS~


Bloody good question old sport!


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## Shockdoc

chicken steve said:


> I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.
> 
> Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?
> 
> ~CS~


Right, bloody well right...

Sent from my SPH-L710T


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## Meadow

FlyingSparks said:


> I was always fascinated by the ring circuits. 2.5mm wire (13awg-ish) on a 32a OCPD, that's a lot different haha


2.5mm2 is a bit larger than 14 gauge which is 2.08mm2 to be exact. 








chicken steve said:


> I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.
> 
> Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?
> 
> ~CS~


 Ill take a stab. Its said to save on copper. 2.5mm2 is rated at 16 to 20amps in wall. So when a ring is formed any socket will allow for power in both directions. Thus a 32 amp breaker may be used without a fire hazard. Also, since 7,600 watts of power are available on any socket circuit it is impossible to trip a breaker in any given room. Something like 5 space heaters would need to be plugged in. 

Generally one ring circuit per floor on a small home. Lighting is 6 or 10amp kept separate from the ring. Kitchens get another circuit as well as the cooker, washer, ect. In theory you could place the laundry circuit on the main floor ring... but good design prevents that. 

The plugs themselves are rated 13amps max and fused because a 32 amp breaker gives a lot more power than a 10 16 or 20amp breaker that is typical for most European lateral circuits (like those found on Schucko) 



The new regs now want RCD as well.


Hopefully a UK sparky can confirm this.


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## chicken steve

Thank you Mr Meadow :thumbsup: 

There is a certain _beauty_ to how this is engineered. Less copper, more umph, point of use protection, as well as the _(thankfully non digital)_ RCD

But it begs the Q, what if a ring breaks? Or device craps out to where the ring breaks? 

~CS~


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## Shockdoc

I believe all the plugs are individually fused also to the appropriate load of the appliance/ device. That right there provides more protection than an afci breaker or tcfi plug.

Sent from my SPH-L710T


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## wildleg

JBrzoz00 said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".
> 
> Pictures would be great.


why don't you just have a uk sparky do it right ?


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## webelec

Ring circuits were meant to save copper after the war. They were not intended for long term use, but sadly are still used today.
There was talk when our 17th edition regulations were being drafted, that ring circuits would be phased out, unfortunately they weren't. 
Ring circuits IMO are dangerous, they have been open to abuse by DIYers and idiots who don't understand them. Often someone will add additional sockets and in doing so, break the ring. When this happens, the sockets will still work, but you then have two separate radials each with a cable only capable of carrying 20A, but protected by a 30/32A device. You are also allowed spurs off a ring circuit and the rule of one socket only on a spur also gets abused.


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## JBrzoz00

Thanks for the info guys. It seems that most sconces just screw to the wall and have little room for wiring behind them and come with a terminal block. Do they not use boxes in the UK? Most of the fixtures specd at the start of the job were UK but I found US equivalents. One example would be the recessed lights, all of the ones they had specd looked like old work style and I couldn't even find new construction style on the manufacturers website. Are all lights cut in after the walls are covered?


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## Meadow

chicken steve said:


> Thank you Mr Meadow :thumbsup:
> 
> There is a certain _beauty_ to how this is engineered. Less copper, more umph, point of use protection, as well as the _(thankfully non digital)_ RCD
> 
> But it begs the Q, what if a ring breaks? Or device craps out to where the ring breaks?
> 
> ~CS~


My understanding is that if the rink breakers a 2.5mm2 runs up to 32 amps with no protection. Also, I can only imagine the magnetic fields from a ring with a broken live or neutral.

Anyway, I think you will like this:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mj3_IKTlVuCcR_E_Q&sig2=BniuLh1HBarY1zlQm3M-Dw






webelec said:


> Ring circuits were meant to save copper after the war. They were not intended for long term use, but sadly are still used today.
> There was talk when our 17th edition regulations were being drafted, that ring circuits would be phased out, unfortunately they weren't.
> Ring circuits IMO are dangerous, they have been open to abuse by DIYers and idiots who don't understand them. Often someone will add additional sockets and in doing so, break the ring. When this happens, the sockets will still work, but you then have two separate radials each with a cable only capable of carrying 20A, but protected by a 30/32A device. You are also allowed spurs off a ring circuit and the rule of one socket only on a spur also gets abused.



I agree they are a bad idea without any type of broken conductor protection. Ive heard from UK forums older sparkies would just strip off the insulation in a ring and not break the actual conductor. 

IF it makes you feel better TN-C was allowed up to stoves and dryers supposedly to conserve copper during the war. TN-C was allowed until the 1996 codes with it going on until 2004 in some areas.

Out of curiosity, why is a spur considered ok? 2 outlets would equal 26 amps, unless the spur must be 4mm2?


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## Meadow

Shockdoc said:


> I believe all the plugs are individually fused also to the appropriate load of the appliance/ device. That right there provides more protection than an afci breaker or tcfi plug.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710T




:lol::lol::lol:

Your are so right. :yes: I never put the two together but a 1amp fuse will protect a lamp cord better than a AFCI.


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## MTW

meadow said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Your are so right. :yes: I never put the two together but a 1amp fuse will protect a lamp cord better than a AFCI.


Definitely. Think about the fuse protection that's required for all Christmas and other similar decorative lighting. Now imagine if every lamp cord besides Christmas lights required fuse protection? I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fires caused by improper use of lamp cord if they had local fuse protection.


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## Meadow

MTW said:


> Definitely. Think about the fuse protection that's required for all Christmas and other similar decorative lighting. Now imagine if every lamp cord besides Christmas lights required fuse protection? I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fires caused by improper use of lamp cord if they had local fuse protection.


I think that's one of the nest analogies along with one of the best recommendations I have ever heard on ET:thumbup: 


Any for your pleasure, another AFCI hissy fit:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/new-...ps-when-charging-computer-watching-tv-224065/


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## humpty34

JBrzoz00 said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".
> 
> Pictures would be great.



You would be wise to visit UK Electrical websites to learn as much as you can about the tremendous difference between USA & UK house wiring. Also read all of the helpful quotes sent in by people attempting to assist you. I served my apprenticeship in the UK then worked there and in the USA as both an electrician and in later years as an estimator in both countries. You really need to do your homework before bidding for UK projects. Hope this helps. HGC


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## Meadow

humpty34 said:


> You would be wise to visit UK Electrical websites to learn as much as you can about the tremendous difference between USA & UK house wiring. Also read all of the helpful quotes sent in by people attempting to assist you. I served my apprenticeship in the UK then worked there and in the USA as both an electrician and in later years as an estimator in both countries. You really need to do your homework before bidding for UK projects. Hope this helps. HGC


Once you see the two systems side by side you tend to have an awakening. 

But I fully agree, the difference is tremendous, especially in testing.


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## RIVETER

JBrzoz00 said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".
> 
> Pictures would be great.


No other way to put it but if you don't know the area...don't bid the job.


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## Tony S

What is puzzling me is why a US electrician has been asked to work to BS7671?


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## Tony S

Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.

Hands up anyone that can carry out
Loop impedance testing
RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
IR testing

The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.


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## ponyboy

Tony S said:


> What is puzzling me is why a US electrician has been asked to work to BS7671?



Cool story


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## chicken steve

Tony S said:


> Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.
> 
> Hands up anyone that can carry out
> Loop impedance testing
> RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
> IR testing
> 
> The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.


I'm in the process of contracting a 3 unit rewire for a Brittish couple this fall

Our first meeting was all about our _'methods'_ , thankfully i've been somewhat enlightened on line to Brittish Standards to have _some_ clue and kept up with him:whistling2:

Oh and, he's also one of '_God's special children_'.....an engineer!

Methinks he's taken a shine to me.....this should be interesting ......:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Meadow

Tony S said:


> Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.
> 
> Hands up anyone that can carry out
> Loop impedance testing
> RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
> IR testing
> 
> The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.



Im learning how to do those, but well worth it imo. :thumbsup:


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## Meadow

chicken steve said:


> I'm in the process of contracting a 3 unit rewire for a Brittish couple this fall
> 
> Our first meeting was all about our _'methods'_ , thankfully i've been somewhat enlightened on line to Brittish Standards to have _some_ clue and kept up with him:whistling2:
> 
> Oh and, he's also one of '_God's special children_'.....an engineer!
> 
> Methinks he's taken a shine to me.....this should be interesting ......:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~



Time to buy one of these :laughing::jester::whistling2:


http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m3en/ins...ltifunction-installation-tester.htm?pid=72323


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## chicken steve

Nice ....but I was hoping to get by with my old>>>>










~CS~


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## Tony S

Have you got the calibration certificate?

No certificate, you can’t use it.


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## Tony S

chicken steve said:


> I'm in the process of contracting a 3 unit rewire for a Brittish couple this fall
> 
> Our first meeting was all about our _'methods'_ , thankfully i've been somewhat enlightened on line to Brittish Standards to have _some_ clue and kept up with him:whistling2:
> 
> Oh and, he's also one of '_God's special children_'.....an engineer!
> 
> Methinks he's taken a shine to me.....this should be interesting ......:thumbsup:
> 
> ~CS~


Poultry sheds come under special locations and will probably require TT earthing and rodent resistant cabling.

Have fun.


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## Meadow

Tony S said:


> Poultry sheds come under special locations and will probably require TT earthing and rodent resistant cabling.
> 
> Have fun.



Why isnt TN-C-S and TN-S allowed?


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## ponyboy

Tony S said:


> Have you got the calibration certificate?
> 
> No certificate, you can’t use it.



I don't have a calibration certificate and I use it all the time. That's just stupid. 


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## Tony S

I’m referring to UK electrical work, not what you do in your private life.


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## chicken steve

> Kitchen:
> Vent fan
> Under counter lights
> Toaster
> Kettle
> Coffee maker
> Dish washer
> 4 spare plugs min
> *Electric hob*
> Electric oven
> Fridge freezer


hob? 

can anyone unfuzz me?

~CS~


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## GrayHair

chicken steve said:


> hob?
> 
> can anyone unfuzz me?
> 
> ~CS~


I think it's what I would call a "hot plate".


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## Meadow

chicken steve said:


> hob?
> 
> can anyone unfuzz me?
> 
> ~CS~



This:

https://www.google.com/search?q=hob...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMI6NX5pafyxwIVBOyACh0LhAhm 


British term for cooktop.


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## OSSElectric

Any for your pleasure said:


> http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/new-construction-home-breaker-trips-when-charging-computer-watching-tv-224065/[/URL]


Jesus homeowners are stupid!


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