# Extra space in panel...



## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Where in the NEC 08 does it say you need to leave extra room for circuit breakers? I looked up and down the codebook, I can't find it. Can someone point me in the right direction


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> Where in the NEC 08 does it say you need to leave extra room for circuit breakers? I looked up and down the codebook, I can't find it. Can someone point me in the right direction


The NEC does not _require_ any extra spaces.

It does kind of imply extra spaces would be nice.

90.8


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

With the current limitations on number of circuits in a panel coupled with what they require for a house, extra spaces are getting hard to come by.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

Wow, no wonder my head hurts! Thanks Bob:thumbsup:


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

nolabama said:


> With the current limitations on number of circuits in a panel coupled with what they require for a house, extra spaces are getting hard to come by.


What limitations would you be talking about?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

42 spaces in a panel


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

nolabama said:


> 42 spaces in a panel



That limit was removed in the 2008 NEC.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I thought that was for lighting and power in commercial buildings. Not resi panels. If that was removed, does anyone make resi panels in excess of 42 spaces?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

No limit at all from the NEC, I do not know if anyone is selling larger panels yet.

I imagine you will see 40 circuit panels being listed to use 40 twin breakers for 80 circuits.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

what would a QO service with 30 tandems cost ...haha


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Can you imagine what a true 80 space resi panel would even look like?

I've seen some pictures of Canadian QO panels that are 66 space.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

imagine it - hell we will be installing them in 20 years :laughing: and they would all be AFCI/GFCI protected


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Can you imagine what a true 80 space resi panel would even look like?


Like a broom closet door.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> With the current limitations on number of circuits in a panel...........


And what current limitation would that be?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

This thread has got me thinking. Everyone has seen those tamper resistant screws that the manufactor puts in when they have a large frame breaker to install in the interior. Those screws are are normaly located in the spaces of 37,39,41 or 38,40,42. With the code change in 2008 would that let someone put 45 poles in that panelboard?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

william1978 said:


> This thread has got me thinking. Everyone has seen those tamper resistant screws that the manufactor puts in when they have a large frame breaker to install in the interior. Those screws are are normaly located in the spaces of 37,39,41 or 38,40,42. With the code change in 2008 would that let someone put 45 poles in that panelboard?


No, I do not think so. I believe that it also has to do with the manufactures self imposed current rating per bus section.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Bob Badger said:


> No, I do not think so. I believe that it also has to do with the manufactures self imposed current rating per bus section.


 Im sure those panel's would need to be listed for how ever many cir's that would be in it also.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

william1978 said:


> This thread has got me thinking. Everyone has seen those tamper resistant screws that the manufactor puts in when they have a large frame breaker to install in the interior. Those screws are are normaly located in the spaces of 37,39,41 or 38,40,42. With the code change in 2008 would that let someone put 45 poles in that panelboard?


I've removed them during the '02 code cycle. 400 amp, 42 circuit 277/480 3 phase panel with a 150 amp main frame breaker feeding a transformer. I needed to add some E circuits and couldn't double anything up.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think most of the manufacturers have a limit of 100 amps per bus finger. If you've got a 100 amp breaker installed, you're not supposed to put anything across from it in the other column. The 125-200 amp breakers typically take up 4 spaces to spread that out.

If you actually need all those spaces, you probably should have put in something like an I-line panel. 

Matter of fact, if you plug on a bunch of QO/QOB adapters in an I-line panel, you can probably get a couple hundred circuits in it.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

Rumor had it 60 ckt panels were supposed to hit the market in 10'. Still waiting......as well to a new design to completely incorporate AFI and GFI neutrals to a center bus bar.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

knowshorts said:


> I've removed them during the '02 code cycle. 400 amp, 42 circuit 277/480 3 phase panel with a 150 amp main frame breaker feeding a transformer. I needed to add some E circuits and couldn't double anything up.


That is clearly a hack and a violation.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> That is clearly a hack and a violation.


What it did was save around $5000 and a major delay. And how is it hack? This wasn't some cheap ass resi grade panel, this was a 400 amp TEY panel. All I was adding was a circuit for exits and a circuit for battery ballasts. 

The way the panel was designed, it was a MLO panel, with the 150 amp transformer OCPD in the same spot as a typical main is. Since this panel didn't have a main (when built at the factory), they installed the three tp screws. If it came from the factory with a MB, it would have had a total of 45 OCPD's.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> What it did was save around $5000 and a major delay. And how is it hack? This wasn't some cheap ass resi grade panel, this was a 400 amp TEY panel. All I was adding was a circuit for exits and a circuit for battery ballasts.


SO.... if the panel costs over a certain amount, and the situation is sufficiently urgent, you're allowed to do things that are prohibited?


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> SO.... if the panel costs over a certain amount, and the situation is sufficiently urgent, you're allowed to do things that are prohibited?


I know your point, but how prohibited is it, when the code did change in my favor? The code is supposed to be about safety. With all your experience, is it really unsafe? Isn't it safer than taping of the buss?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> I know your point, but how prohibited is it, when the code did change in my favor?


I don't think it ever did change, with regard to 110.3(B). Those screws were never intended to be removed. In order to compliantly remove them, you'd have to call for a UL field evaluation.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I don't think it ever did change, with regard to 110.3(B). Those screws were never intended to be removed. In order to compliantly remove them, you'd have to call for a UL field evaluation.


I've installed the same panel, without those screws (from the factory). Those screws were installed by Maria when she got the panel build request. As far as 110.3(b) goes, what if the guts are shipped without any instructions? Then is that article enforceable?


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Rumor had it 60 ckt panels were supposed to hit the market in 10'. Still waiting......as well to a new design to completely incorporate AFI and GFI neutrals to a center bus bar.


60 CKT panels are out and have been for a while. However they are not 60 full size breakers. 

AFCI with incorporated neutrals that plug on to the neutral bar are available too.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

electricmanscott said:


> 60 CKT panels are out and have been for a while. However they are not 60 full size breakers.
> 
> AFCI with incorporated neutrals that plug on to the neutral bar are available too.


Haven't seen one in existance in any supply house in the greater NY area. Bought a CH panel the other day which did NOT have the neutral bar located alongside the breakers so all the AFIs needed to be field wired . I'd imagine your'e describing a 40 circuit panel with 50% of it twinable. I was dreaming of a 60 full size panel.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

like this?


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## goose134 (Nov 12, 2007)

MDShunk said:


> I think most of the manufacturers have a limit of 100 amps per bus finger. If you've got a 100 amp breaker installed, you're not supposed to put anything across from it in the other column. The 125-200 amp breakers typically take up 4 spaces to spread that out.
> 
> If you actually need all those spaces, you probably should have put in something like an I-line panel.
> 
> Matter of fact, if you plug on a bunch of QO/QOB adapters in an I-line panel, you can probably get a couple hundred circuits in it.


Yes, the bus stab rating is still a limiting factor. I'm not familiar with the I line panels. I suspect if you need that much power, you need a coordinated study.


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## idontknow (Jul 18, 2009)

found here: square D e-catalog


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> No limit at all from the NEC, I do not know if anyone is selling larger panels yet.
> 
> I imagine you will see 40 circuit panels being listed to use 40 twin breakers for 80 circuits.


But now that wouldn't be possible with Afci breakers. I don't know of twin AFCI's.


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> But now that wouldn't be possible with Afci breakers. I don't know of twin AFCI's.


Great point.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> But now that wouldn't be possible with Afci breakers. I don't know of twin AFCI's.


True but not all circuits are afci circuits so the extra space is still valuable even if it's for twins.

I have a service upgrade coming up. There are about 45 existing circuits with several more to be added for a kitchen project. I spec'd a Sq D 200 amp MB 40/60 panel. No afcis needed.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

electricmanscott said:


> True but not all circuits are afci circuits so the extra space is still valuable even if it's for twins.......


Give them time, my son. Patience is a virtue. There will come a day when everything will be AFCId.:thumbup:


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Give them time, my son. Patience is a virtue. There will come a day when everything will be AFCId.:thumbup:


I guess the corporations and NFBU would not make that much if they came out with a main AFI/GFI breaker.....


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Here's a picture of one of those Cutler Hammer plug-on neutral panels being installed:


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## kwired (Dec 20, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Here's a picture of one of those Cutler Hammer plug-on neutral panels being installed:


So what is different about it, and where is this "plug on neutral"? doesn't look much different than anything that has been around for 60+years

add: looks like everything is offset to the right instead of centered. that does not appear to be any advantage to me but rather more difficulty accesing the neutral bar and right side breaker terminals .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

kwired said:


> So what is different about it, and where is this "plug on neutral"? doesn't look much different than anything that has been around for 60+years



Other than everything is crammed into the right side of the tub, making it even harder to terminate a noodle.


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

why didnt they just put the neutral bar on the left side at afci distance? silly engineers.


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## jwjrw (Jan 14, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Give them time, my son. Patience is a virtue. There will come a day when everything will be AFCId.:thumbup:


 

Thanks for reminding me of that! i HATE ARC'S!:whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

danickstr said:


> why didnt they just put the neutral bar on the left side at afci distance? silly engineers.


That might not be the best picture to have posted. That's actually a custom tub (from Penn Panel) for a custom job. The panelboard is in the lower right because other stuff goes in that enclosure.


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## 4Runner (Apr 4, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> That might not be the best picture to have posted. That's actually a custom tub (from Penn Panel) for a custom job. The panelboard is in the lower right because other stuff goes in that enclosure.



Is that one of those retrofit panels that C-H offers for recessed/obsolete panels? If not, what's the story line on this?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

4Runner said:


> Is that one of those retrofit panels that C-H offers for recessed/obsolete panels? If not, what's the story line on this?


The guts are, and the extension collar is. Not the can.


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

nolabama said:


> 42 spaces in a panel


No it was limited to 42 circuits I believe. So to make that you could not violate the code manufacturers made their panels with a max of 42 spaces.


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