# Exit sign



## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

I saw an apprentice installing an exit sign where the journeyman foreman told the kid to install it on the face of the wall but on the other side , to just dump the mc into the back of the exit sign with no connector... I heard the foreman say you don't need a connector for exit signs. I personally would have used a spreader bar and a 1900 and obviously the exit sign could have been mounted to the box..

My question is there anything in the NEC about pushing metal clad in the back without a j box or connector?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

He didn’t mount it as the directions showed. 
its only listed to be used one way.

Besides, who needs to worry about stupid connectors. It will never be pulled out and will never short.

That lid sticker looks union to me. Wonder what trunk slamming local that is.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

No connector, what a moron, wrote up and fired!. This is a spec'd job, but there are exceptions in *Article 348.30(A)*.
So it's OK through the wall but it needs a connector.

As I recall if you look at the E light you will see multiply via mold outlines in reference to Bust out outlines and screw holes, I believe a single mold hole is implied. I can see and question no box but the point is no connector to the box,
I'm just at a lost to express myself.

Besides if they are to only use a connector, install to the top then one doesn't have wire casing shadows
inside the see through letters, and they usually cut the ground wire off and not cap it!


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

CADPoint said:


> No connector, what a moron, wrote up and fired!. This is a spec'd job, but there are exceptions in *Article 348.30(A)*.
> So it's OK through the wall but it needs a connector.
> 
> As I recall if you look at the E light you will see multiply via mold outlines in reference to Bust out outlines and screw holes, I believe a single mold hole is implied. I can see and question no box but the point is no connector to the box,
> ...


Metal Clad is in in Article 330 under NEC 2020 not FMC in 338... but to your point is it a CODE violation? I understand the quality aspect. I would not ever install that in that manner...


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Excuse me I missed MC verses FMC, yes it needs associated fitting *330.6.*
I thought FMC because I didn't see any wires hanging out of the MC.
Allowed as installed *330.10(10)*.

It's just a can of worms, you might as well start check strapping on the back side of the hallway.

Your not going to make any friends, they don't have their CO, and I've been on a job
where I over heard the house electrician comment, "Lets go see what they messed up".

Good Luck


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Police your local brother 24 unfilled calls every day the last week. Work is to good right now to be doing shitty work like that. What job


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Plastic exit light has it's own built in non metallic box. Think about that. Metal cables are not allowed to be connected to plastic boxes, only non metallic raceways or cables are allowed to be hooked into non metallic boxes. So there ya go. It needs a metal backbox


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

I also hate when people take mc into exits
Like that and don’t use the tiny wire they send and clip it back because I can always see the wire when it’s on. Also if this is health care don’t they need to Be piped in ??


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> Police your local brother 24 unfilled calls every day the last week. Work is to good right now to be doing shitty work like that. What job


I hear you brother. It's a double whammy for me.... Shitty work and code. If code allows it there is less of an argument... But I hear you I wouldn't do that


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> I also hate when people take mc into exits
> Like that and don’t use the tiny wire they send and clip it back because I can always see the wire when it’s on. Also if this is health care don’t they need to Be piped in ??


I spent most of my apprenticeship in hospital. That would NEVER fly.... However this is a small town in rural Missouri. (Middle School)
I was sent to help out... They may even be on 2014 or 2017 NEC. I've seen 2008 on prints few years back.


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

CADPoint said:


> Excuse me I missed MC verses FMC, yes it needs associated fitting *330.6.*
> I thought FMC because I didn't see any wires hanging out of the MC.
> Allowed as installed *330.10(10)*.
> 
> ...


I will check that for sure. I just couldn't imagine it's legal, but if you have proof I'll look tonight.


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

macmikeman said:


> Plastic exit light has it's own built in non metallic box. Think about that. Metal cables are not allowed to be connected to plastic boxes, only non metallic raceways or cables are allowed to be hooked into non metallic boxes. So there ya go. It needs a metal backbox


Yes. And the argument is NO associated fitting for the connection was installed.


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Arsenal FC said:


> Yes. And the argument is NO associated fitting for the connection was installed.


Dude idgaf if something is less than par we as ibew have to police ourselves. How many time do you say I why did this nonunion guy do this **** like this. Blah blah blah. But if we are doing the same does That make us better and justify our pay ? There has been many times I go behind other brothers and fix their **** and talk to them about it or call the hall. Because at the end of the day if we are not better we are just more expensive and we have a specific brand we are trying to maintain and that’s not it


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## mburtis (Sep 1, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Plastic exit light has it's own built in non metallic box. Think about that. Metal cables are not allowed to be connected to plastic boxes, only non metallic raceways or cables are allowed to be hooked into non metallic boxes. So there ya go. It needs a metal backbox


Really? I see plastic boxes/enclosures hooked up to rmc/emt all the time. I must not be understanding what your saying.


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## CADPoint (Jul 5, 2007)

Mac, I don't get it either *314.3* *Exception No. 1. *
Now we can argue that there is no place for the green wire to land inside an exit sign thus taking the exception away.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

CADPoint said:


> Mac, I don't get it either *314.3* *Exception No. 1. *
> Now we can argue that there is no place for the green wire to land inside an exit sign thus taking the exception away.


Exactly the point.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

mburtis said:


> Really? I see plastic boxes/enclosures hooked up to rmc/emt all the time. I must not be understanding what your saying.


Like Cadpoint pointed out (that Cad) , unless internal means are provided in the plastic boxes to make the connections for the ground continuous you cannot use metal conduits on plastic boxes, so there may be lots of times you "see" metal conduits and mc cables running into plastic enclosures, it doesn't make it proper. And.... there are 2 exceptions, I have seen the boxes discussed in exception #1, they have built in metal strips running to each entry , and as for exception 2, they have a ground screw fitting and Threaded holes.
Do you run into exit lights with threaded entry holes often? Me, I don't, there is a bash out ko but it doesn't have threads.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

The way I have been reading this, bonding locknuts or bushings get you Exception No. 1, boxes with conductive straps / traces satisfy Exception No. 2. Is that wrong? Asking for a friend. 



> 314.3 Nonmetallic Boxes. Nonmetallic boxes shall be permitted only with open wiring on insulators, concealed knob-and-tube wiring, cabled wiring methods with entirely nonmetallic
> sheaths, flexible cords, and nonmetallic raceways.
> 
> Exception No. 1: Where internal bonding means are provided between all entries, nonmetallic boxes shall be permitted to be used with metal raceways or metal-armored cables.
> ...


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

mburtis said:


> Really? I see plastic boxes/enclosures hooked up to rmc/emt all the time. I must not be understanding what your saying.


technically he makes a good point.... Don't we always set a 1900 or round fixture box... Can't say I have ran conduit to....
What is done in stairwells probably conduit to a box and then mounted??


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> Dude idgaf if something is less than par we as ibew have to police ourselves. How many time do you say I why did this nonunion guy do this *** like this. Blah blah blah. But if we are doing the same does That make us better and justify our pay ? There has been many times I go behind other brothers and fix their *** and talk to them about it or call the hall. Because at the end of the day if we are not better we are just more expensive and we have a specific brand we are trying to maintain and that’s not it


Slay. What Local?


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

macmikeman said:


> Plastic exit light has it's own built in non metallic box. Think about that. Metal cables are not allowed to be connected to plastic boxes, only non metallic raceways or cables are allowed to be hooked into non metallic boxes. So there ya go. It needs a metal backbox


I wonder what an inspector would say. Few would okay it, others catch the bonding exception.....?


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## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Arsenal FC said:


> Slay. What Local?


Yours lol


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Wirenuting said:


> He didn’t mount it as the directions showed.
> its only listed to be used one way.
> 
> Besides, who needs to worry about stupid connectors. It will never be pulled out and will never short.
> ...


Ditto...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Arsenal FC said:


> technically he makes a good point.... Don't we always set a 1900 or round fixture box... Can't say I have ran conduit to....
> What is done in stairwells probably conduit to a box and then mounted??


Some exit light fixtures, as well as many bathroom "strip" fixtures, and almost all the (OMG I gotta call them OLD!) Old flourescent fixtures are UL LISTED for direct cable entry... with the code-required listed cable gland, be it a push-in, an NM squeeze connector, or a BX/ MC cable connector, or direct conduit with a connector as well... 

Short answer is, a connector is required if there is no additional fixture box involved and, typically you'll see a variety of acceptable ways to get the juice in there that meets or exceeds whatever the code requires... some mount directly to a 4 & 11/16 square box, a 1900 box sans any sort of plaster ring, or a standard 2x3 gem box, a cut-in gem, or a 3' or 4' round... There's many ways to skin this cat BUT... just blasting the raw cut MC into a large hole so it's "inside" the fixture/ sign is definitely a violation w/o an approved connector. MC has a ground included unlike BX but I have never heard of that fact allowing one to not make a physical solid secure connection to it's terminus with the one exception that I can think of and that's when using NM cable in a residence into a nonmetallic device box. 

I'm going to stick my neck out and venture to guess the person running this project, be it the GF (Which it should be, also known as the lead or general foremen, the head cheese... or the #1 in IBEW speak... ) is in some way getting rewarded for "saving" the expected bid costs for materials, time, manhours, tool procurement, etc...) OR - the contractor themselves is remiss in either choosing who is making decisions here OR... supplying the proper material and forcing the hired help to violate code on their behest. 

In case it's not obvious, I have been researching your past posts and re-hashing them when I don't think you actually ever got a decent enough answer... Or a useful/ descriptive/ detailed one. I can get quite "wordy..." ask anyone. Not to put too fine a point on it but, I'm starting to understand you a little better in order to customize the answer I'll eventually opine in your latest post about not getting promoted/ your "come-uppance." So please... bear with me.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Arsenal FC said:


> technically he makes a good point.... Don't we always set a 1900 or round fixture box... Can't say I have ran conduit to....
> What is done in stairwells probably conduit to a box and then mounted??


Have you ever been in any large masonry-centric commercial building? Don't you have eyes? Most electricians / tradesmen are ALWAYS scanning and combing over/ picking apart or admiring the work and construction techniques everywhere they go. I mean you no disrespect and bear no ill will... but unless you live in a bubble, if you're NOT already doing this by nature, then I think you really aren't the kind of individual I would want leading others.

The following I proclaim to you with the proviso that everyone understand I'm not bearing false witness, and mean you no ill will, it is *JUST MY OPINION* so for whatever that's worth... here goes:

Apparently, you've been mistaken in your belief that promotions in the trade come from time-served or tenure-based. They don't. Not everybody gets to or wants to or needs to or GAF about running work or directing the labor force and answering to the man. 

If you joined IBEW you'd have been drilled in this concept and would have worked/learned it even simply by rote... and not have delusions of grandeour that one day you MUST be supervisor material... 

I suspect you are NOT a member of IBEW but rather some in-house maintenance man? Your employer may very well iindeed have some written policy they may or may not be taking to heart, or seriously as they wish YOU to but IF that's the case then your post here about not getting promoted YET is really just blowing off steam, and you'll get nothing useful from the likes of most of us here at E.T. that you could bank on.

Best of luck in your endeavours,

-DDD

Peace out brother!


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## Arsenal FC (10 mo ago)

LGLS said:


> Some exit light fixtures, as well as many bathroom "strip" fixtures, and almost all the (OMG I gotta call them OLD!) Old flourescent fixtures are UL LISTED for direct cable entry... with the code-required listed cable gland, be it a push-in, an NM squeeze connector, or a BX/ MC cable connector, or direct conduit with a connector as well...
> 
> Short answer is, a connector is required if there is no additional fixture box involved and, typically you'll see a variety of acceptable ways to get the juice in there that meets or exceeds whatever the code requires... some mount directly to a 4 & 11/16 square box, a 1900 box sans any sort of plaster ring, or a standard 2x3 gem box, a cut-in gem, or a 3' or 4' round... There's many ways to skin this cat BUT... just blasting the raw cut MC into a large hole so it's "inside" the fixture/ sign is definitely a violation w/o an approved connector. MC has a ground included unlike BX but I have never heard of that fact allowing one to not make a physical solid secure connection to it's terminus with the one exception that I can think of and that's when using NM cable in a residence into a nonmetallic device box.
> 
> ...


First off. I read all of your post.
Second off the GF is.... Well let's say... I don't hate the guy but he would never post or do anything even remotely related to electrical outside of working hours. 
I actually am curious about the work and seem to really take a liking to lighting systems specifically 
Unfortunately you are right, while I do appreciate all the Unions have done for every worker theoretically.. I just know that they promote that guy not me... But they taught me well and I learned a lot but(Union or non Union) I need a change just not sure how to approach it quite yet....


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Arsenal FC said:


> First off. I read all of your post.
> Second off the GF is.... Well let's say... I don't hate the guy but he would never post or do anything even remotely related to electrical outside of working hours.
> I actually am curious about the work and seem to really take a liking to lighting systems specifically
> Unfortunately you are right, while I do appreciate all the Unions have done for every worker theoretically.. I just know that they promote that guy not me... But they taught me well and I learned a lot but(Union or non Union) I need a change just not sure how to approach it quite yet....


Werll then I'm sure you figure out whatever issues you're having, remember "this too shall pass."


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