# Concrete fastener



## TAGallagher (Sep 21, 2017)

What is your favorite, or what have you found to be the best fastener for installing 1/2" to 1" conduit to a precast concrete ceiling. Using one hole straps, Gotta be tight to the ceiling as everything is exposed. I'm just talking the hardware here, tapcons, drop ins, mollys, etc.........?
Thank you kindly


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

I like the Zamac hammer drive pins, but Tapcons are also in my collection.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Tapcons


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> I like the Zamac hammer drive pins, but Tapcons are also in my collection.


Are those the lead anchor pins? They are great goin in, and hell coming out again. I drive tapcon's for the next guy. And you guys and your fagatar's are kinda gettin on me nerves you know....... shadows of Steven Miller.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

macmikeman said:


> Are those the lead anchor pins? They are great goin in, and hell coming out again. I drive tapcon's for the next guy. And you guys and your fagatar's are kinda gettin on me nerves you know....... shadows of Steven Miller.


This forum is no place for your intolerance and bigotry. You need to acknowledge your white privilege.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You think with the new OSHA requirements on drilling that the gas/battery faster systems will take over?

Ran into the Hilti rep at a Starbucks and he was saying they are having an uptick in sales and expect it to increase.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

RePhase277 said:


> This forum is no place for your intolerance and bigotry. You need to acknowledge your white privilege.



I just ate a whole bag of Ritz Crackers. Now that is white privilege.


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Tapcons


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I like nail-ins and trust them more that tapcons screws or shot fasteners but I use them on walls, not ceilings, I just don't like hammering into ceilings. 

I'll use a larger tapcon than you really need for this. On paper the smallest tapcon you can buy is more than strong enough for this but in reality if you just wobble the drill a little bit, the hole is bigger than it's supposed to be, and it makes a very weak attachment. 

A lot of things people do with tapcons, it doesn't really matter if there's a loose one here and there, for example attaching furring strips to a basement wall, nothing's going to fall down if some of those are loose. But that's not the case strapping EMT, expecially if you are being stingy with the straps, sometimes the wrong one pulls out and it's bad news. 

I have noticed that for some reason they seem to sell mostly really long 5/32" SDS bits, when I see some short ones I will buy a bunch. The longer bit flexes more when you put pressure on it, which has the same effect as if you don't hold it straight and let it wobble around, makes too big of a hole. 

I have also discovered that, If I can find them, the off brand tapcons that aren't blue irritate me less than the regular tapcons. 

Shots will probably take over because of the ridiculous dust regulations which is another ironic safety measure that will make me less safe.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

First of all, I like to use 3/16" in precast as its much harder than regular concrete.
I came up in the trade using nail-ins but quickly switched to tapcons due to what Mikie said but,, sometimes 3/16" nail-ins are sloppy in the drilled hole.
Pre cast is also very hard on those tiny masonary bits. 
I found Powers makes a ZAMAC makes a short 1/4"-5/8" nail-in that works just as well as the 1" size in precast.

http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/02826.pdf

These are good if you cant bind the anchor with the strap.










also, a long snout hammer is a must for hitting anchors in regular boxes


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Pump a Tapcon hole full of PowerGrab for an extra hold when you're not comfy with the fit.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> Pump a Tapcon hole full of PowerGrab for an extra hold when you're not comfy with the fit.


That sounds like a good way to go if you have it with you. I know a guy that knows a guy that will shave a sliver off his pencil and stuff that in the hole, and try again, and give it a good tug just to see. I have heard that a scrap of insulation from a stripped wire works well too but my guy says that guy says he never tried that.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> Pump a Tapcon hole full of PowerGrab for an extra hold when you're not comfy with the fit.


That stuff holds pretty good BTW.

We were hanging some flat metal signs and the guys were hitting steel and decided to use "fakes" or "fakies"as we call them with silicone and duct tape.
The job superintendent caught on and pulled a few of them out and brought them to the job meeting for show and tell. kind of embarrassing. :crying:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> That sounds like a good way to go if you have it with you. I know a guy that knows a guy that will shave a sliver off his pencil and stuff that in the hole, and try again, and give it a good tug just to see. I have heard that a scrap of insulation from a stripped wire works well too but my guy says that guy says he never tried that.


I carry toothpicks for those occasions. I use them more for wood, but they work everywhere.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Chopsticks. The disposable kind. They are everywhere here , you can swipe an extra handful from McDonalds easy. You slam the whole thing in with a hammer and then break it off and now you have a wood hole to send in the screw the second time. Only the code says that's a bad. For them guys who read codes and all. 110.13 (A)


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> I carry toothpicks for those occasions. I use them more for wood, but they work everywhere.


Toothpicks would be better because before long you've ruined a perfectly good pencil. 

I don't know f t's a local thing but in older homes you'll see they used wood for masonry anchors 100 years ago and most of them I come across are still fine. 

My great uncle showed me how they did it when he worked in the mines, to anchor lag bolts. They'd drill the hole - no shortage of big drills - then whittle big shavings off a timber and tap them into the hole one by one until you couldn't get any more in there. Then you put the point of the lag into the center of the bundle and screwed it in with a wrench. 

I'll tell you what, I've done it in a pinch with big lags and it's pretty damn strong, you add some good construction adhesive to this method and I wouldn't be surprised if it's stronger than what you buy at the store.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

macmikeman said:


> Chopsticks. The disposable kind. They are everywhere here , you can swipe an extra handful from McDonalds easy. You slam the whole thing in with a hammer and then break it off and now you have a wood hole to send in the screw the second time. Only the code says that's a bad. For them guys who read codes and all. 110.13 (A)


Bah, anchors are not "equipment" does not apply! You hold your head high. Chopsticks sound like a good way to go they just don't have them at McDonalds in America. But maybe it would work with the tines of plastic forks.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

If you think about it, wood in the hole isn't much different than plastic anchors. Some would say better.

I believe it was McClary who said that he used 3 pieces of #12 solid copper


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I would use #10 pastic anchors all day long. M12 sds and you are good to go. 

https://www.amazon.com/Ribbed-Plast...d=1521295709&sr=8-10&keywords=plastic+anchors


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Bah, anchors are not "equipment" does not apply! You hold your head high. Chopsticks sound like a good way to go they just don't have them at McDonalds in America. But maybe it would work with the tines of plastic forks.


Are you thinking of 110.3(B)?

110.13(A) definitely does apply. I never saw it before just now.


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## UncleMike (Jan 2, 2013)

HackWork said:


> If you think about it, wood in the hole isn't much different than plastic anchors. Some would say better.
> 
> I believe it was McClary who said that he used 3 pieces of #12 solid copper


Wood can rot, allowing the anchor to become loose. Plastic should/will hold up much better.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Are you thinking of 110.3(B)?
> 
> 110.13(A) definitely does apply. I never saw it before just now.


Definition of equipment / scope - I don't see it applying to fastening?

Edit: I am 99% sure the building code requires fasteners for overhead loads have a rating for the load they support... so you still might be F'd with chopsticks.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Definition of equipment / scope - I don't see it applying to fastening?


???


110.13 Mounting and Cooling of Equipment.
(A) Mounting. Electrical equipment shall be firmly secured to the surface on which it is mounted. Wooden plugs driven into holes in masonry, concrete, plaster, or similar materials shall not be used.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> ???
> 
> 
> 110.13 Mounting and Cooling of Equipment.
> (A) Mounting. Electrical equipment shall be firmly secured to the surface on which it is mounted. Wooden plugs driven into holes in masonry, concrete, plaster, or similar materials shall not be used.


I missed that, I was looking at 110.3 not 110.13


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> I missed that, I was looking at 110.3 not 110.13


That's what I said in my previous post when I asked if you were thinking of 110.3(B). I originally did the same thing.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Now just thinking out loud, is a conduit strap "equipment" or does "equipment" mean panels, disconnects, etc.? I think the definition mentions "fittings" but like with listing, couplings have to be listed, straps do not, straps are not equipment?


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

splatz said:


> Now just thinking out loud, is a conduit strap "equipment" or does "equipment" mean panels, disconnects, etc.? I think the definition mentions "fittings" but like with listing, couplings have to be listed, straps do not, straps are not equipment?


I call post 500 RIGHT NOW! It's mine:devil3:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

splatz said:


> Now just thinking out loud, is a conduit strap "equipment" or does "equipment" mean panels, disconnects, etc.? I think the definition mentions "fittings" but like with listing, couplings have to be listed, straps do not, straps are not equipment?





> Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances,
> luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a
> part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.


 That last part in conjunction with fittings make me thing that straps would apply.

I thought some means of support needed to be listed?


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> If you think about it, wood in the hole isn't much different than plastic anchors. Some would say better.
> 
> I believe it was McClary who said that he used 3 pieces of #12 solid copper


You know #6 THHN is right about 1/4" in diameter, I wonder if you can drive a screw into a plug of #6. I bet you can drive a screw right into the strands of a 1" scrap of #6 wire. Maybe not Cu but Al I bet works. Might be something to test in the laboratory today.


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

2017 NEC

Article 100 - Definitions (pg 70-36)

*Equipment* A general term , including 
fittings , devices , appliances, luminaires ,
apparatus machinery , and the the like used
as a part of , *or in connection with *, an 
electrical installation (CMP-1)


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> That last part in conjunction with fittings make me thing that straps would apply.
> 
> I thought some means of support needed to be listed?


I thought securing EMT with bailing wire to the bar joists was compliant ... 

OF COURSE like all of us I'd NEVER DREAM of such a thing, even in a pinch on a Sunday, but I do like to know where I have some wiggle room just in case.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that some means of support need to be listed, just not sure what and I have used the codebook way too much for a Saturday.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

lighterup said:


> 2017 NEC
> 
> Article 100 - Definitions (pg 70-36)
> 
> ...


I don't think that seals it lighterup ... that is still on "and the like"


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

A 500pc bag of plastic anchors is like $10.

500 inches of #6 copper is much more :vs_laugh:


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## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

splatz said:


> I don't think that seals it lighterup ... that is still on "and the like"


I'm not seeing what you're saying.

seems to say everything involved in the completion of the intall

I will however admit , I have never said ...
_grab that equipment off the truck and _
_bring it in_..." when talking about conduit


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I agree with lighterups, as you can see in post #28 in which I post the article before him. I demand credit! :vs_mad:





:biggrin::devil3::vs_laugh:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

The cut tail of a zip tie works well as a hole smallener.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

HackWork said:


> A 500pc bag of plastic anchors is like $10.
> 
> 500 inches of #6 copper is much more :vs_laugh:


^^This is the one thing he's not going to use aluminum for


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

HackWork said:


> A 500pc bag of plastic anchors is like $10.
> 
> 500 inches of #6 copper is much more :vs_laugh:


I have a few short rolls of #6. I could have the guys make a 5 year supply of anchors.:smile:


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

Southeast Power said:


> I have a few short rolls of #6. I could have the guys make a 5 year supply of anchors.:smile:


I bet just saving the clippings from terminations would give you a 50 year supply.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

We will never know the true answer until 360 posts his opinion.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Southeast Power said:


> I have a few short rolls of #6. I could have the guys make a 5 year supply of anchors.:smile:





RePhase277 said:


> I bet just saving the clippings from terminations would give you a 50 year supply.


There is enough under my fingernails right now to last until I retire


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Hilti, or Ramset. All day baaaby. (unless you got some cheap concrete.)


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

joebanana said:


> Hilti, or Ramset. All day baaaby. (unless you got some cheap concrete.)


Don't call me baby.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

The OP mentioned for use in ceiling. I remember reading (years ago) in the Rawl Fastener catalog that anything that could melt in a fire like lead and plastics was not rated by them for use in overhead hanging.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> There is enough under my fingernails right now to last until I retire


We're talking about copper wire, not trucker back skin.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

RePhase277 said:


> We're talking about copper wire, not trucker back skin.


^ You notice he knows how *big my hands are* and doesn't question there's a LOT of material in there in any case.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

splatz said:


> ^ You notice he knows how *big my hands are* and doesn't question there's a LOT of material in there in any case.


I wouldn't have you, er... I mean... It, any other way:vs_OMG:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

This thread is on par with the better gay threads.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> This thread is on par with the better gay threads.


Now that you're here, we've gone into gay warp drive. And Going Command is drunk. I'm so hot right now.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

RePhase277 said:


> Now that you're here, we've gone into gay warp drive. And Going Command is drunk. I'm so hot right now.


Just because I enjoy the company of gorgeous older men with big delicious hogs, it doesn't mean that I am gay


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Just because I enjoy the company of gorgeous older men with big delicious hogs, it doesn't mean that I am gay


Is there an IAEI **** certification?


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## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Certain cities anchors on a ceiling that melt wont pass.

Seen some stores around 100 years old that had wooden dowls installed on the inside brickwork at regular intervals. Guessing for shelving.

Back in the day we had to put Tapcons in with a corded drill.
Because the drills didn't have breaks when you let off and the variable RPM was still fast, it was a fine line between tight, snapped, or stripped head.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

TAGallagher said:


> What is your favorite, or what have you found to be the best fastener for installing 1/2" to 1" conduit to a precast concrete ceiling. Using one hole straps, Gotta be tight to the ceiling as everything is exposed. I'm just talking the hardware here, tapcons, drop ins, mollys, etc.........?
> Thank you kindly


It's been a few years since we've needed it, but I might be inclined to shoot those preassembled 1 hole straps and pins into the ceiling with a ramset. We used them years ago on tilt up warehouse and they worked pretty well.

Otherwise, lead drive in anchors or tapcons.


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

I prefer 1/4 drop ins. 
Not a fan of using powder actuated tools because they can blow holes in the concrete.
Never seen anyone use tapcons on large scale projects to hang pipe from. 

The new method because of upcoming OSHA regs on silica is the Hilti BX 3-ME batter operated gun but its about $2800. The clips and hardware sold for it are also good but expensive. I have used this gun and will say it kicks ass for smaller pipe runs. You can also use it to hang strut for small pipe as they sell blank washers which you can shoot through to hang strut on ceiling


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Some of you guys skip over the fact this is a ceiling.

Tapcons or drive pins are the only way to go, as others have said you can't have an anchor that will melt in a fire situation.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

1/4" pipe spikes only need a 3/16" hole but, precast seems to chew up the carbide tips. 

Last time I set anchors in precast, we shot 3/8" studs with a Hilti DX451 using red or black shots.
Next job I would for sure like to try out that fancy Battery Hilti gun tool. 

I would bring my own so that the contractor wouldn't have to buy one. :biggrin:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> 1/4" pipe spikes only need a 3/16" hole but, precast seems to chew up the carbide tips.
> 
> Last time I set anchors in precast, we shot 3/8" studs with a Hilti DX451 using red or black shots.
> Next job I would for sure like to try out that fancy Battery Hilti gun tool.
> ...


LOL....going for 'worm' status? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## bostonPedro (Nov 14, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> 1/4" pipe spikes only need a 3/16" hole but, precast seems to chew up the carbide tips.
> 
> Next job I would for sure like to try out that fancy Battery Hilti gun tool.
> 
> I would bring my own so that the contractor wouldn't have to buy one. :biggrin:



https://pics.me.me/ok-wise-guy-this-means-war-memes-com-17858890.png
:vs_laugh:


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Southeast Power said:


> 1/4" pipe spikes only need a 3/16" hole but, precast seems to chew up the carbide tips.
> 
> Last time I set anchors in precast, we shot 3/8" studs with a Hilti DX451 using red or black shots.
> Next job I would for sure like to try out that fancy Battery Hilti gun tool.
> ...


I know the guy you work for... he's a hack, so your gonna have to supply the tools...:wink:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

If I have to drill precast, I'd much prefer drilling the 5/32 tapcon hole rather than the 1/4" anchor hole. Precast is like billion pound strength concrete. If spalling can be tolerated occasionally, the ramset pins would be my first choice. If not, tapcons.


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> If I have to drill precast, I'd much prefer drilling the 5/32 tapcon hole rather than the 1/4" anchor hole. Precast is like billion pound strength concrete. If spalling can be tolerated occasionally, the ramset pins would be my first choice. If not, tapcons.


That's a lot of pound strength. How's it do in torsion?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MechanicalDVR said:


> LOL....going for 'worm' status? :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


The word Scummy was being tossed around a bit. lain:


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> The word Scummy was being tossed around a bit. lain:


Yeah I saw that too.....

Kids....


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Nobody, I repeat, nobody uses tapcons here.


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