# All the studying did no good



## rfortuna25 (Apr 23, 2009)

I studied my ass off for a good 6 months or so... And I still failed the freaking test... I failed the math and the english so I am not very sure if I want to keep pursuing this as a career change.... I was sent a letter saying I had to take another test called the georgia work keys, which I took before I even took the test for the NJATC and I passed with flying colors so now I am wondering if I can use that test to substitute the actual aptitute test or if that test they told me to take is just a BS test they just want me to take.... I really dont get it I am really good with math and english yet I failed their stupid test.... Any advices on what I should do next?

PS: At this point I am really about to just throw the towel and let the more intelligent people do this kinda work... Seriously if I cant pass a aptitute test I couldnt even imagine how I would do on a real test if I do get into the apprenticeship :cursing: :bangin:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Did you try taking some basic math at the local community college takes two terms Algebra I and II maybe thrown in Geometry course. Well worth it.

Once you get in, the math can be a minor art of your career depending on the path you take.

Studying your ass off is never a waste of time, your brain won't be damaged by studying.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

If you desire to continue in this career path then I would recommend English 99 and Algebra at your local community colledge.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Don't give up.. you will kick yourself later down the road if you do. :no:


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

brian john said:


> Did you try taking some basic math at the local community college takes two terms Algebra I and II maybe thrown in Geometry course. Well worth it.
> 
> Once you get in, the math can be a minor art of your career depending on the path you take.
> 
> Studying your ass off is never a waste of time, your brain won't be damaged by studying.


i agree with most of this, but not necessarily with the last sentence.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

wildleg said:


> i agree with most of this, but not necessarily with the last sentence.


Why not?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

You know you do not have to work union, you may be able to land an open shop job and get in the union later.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

rfortuna25 said:


> PS: At this point I am really about to just throw the towel and let the more intelligent people do this kinda work... Seriously if I cant pass a aptitute test I couldnt even imagine how I would do on a real test if I do get into the apprenticeship :cursing: :bangin:



Have you accepted your mediocrity and are now ready to join the legions of smock and/or the paper hat wearing portion of society?


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

JohnJ0906 said:


> Why not?


you haven't seen my brain


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

Go open shop.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

wildleg said:


> you haven't seen my brain


 Have you?


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

Celtic said:


> Have you accepted your mediocrity and are now ready to join the legions of smock and/or the paper hat wearing portion of society?


 sombody gotta flip dem burgers:jester:


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> You know you do to have to work union, you may be able to land an open shop job and get in the union later.



Like that's a bad thing!

Been good to me for 23 yrs! rolleyes
And I didn't need to take an English class either, I learned that at an early age.

Now the math.......

Whats up with this college stuff for an electrical license? 
Do they require some sort of Liberal Arts too? perhaps a community adventure?
The Masters test here now is mostly Taxes and business.
It used to be 'Advanced Electrical knowledge' and calculations.

I hire Tax advisers and accountants. My little way of stimulating the economy.:thumbup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

If you do go open shop, make sure you do at least 6 months at a bottom-of-the-barrel rat shop who makes you supply your own power tools, has no safety, no benefits of any kind, and literally just jams the materials in while screaming at you.

You won't regret it. Its great to see how the other side does business.

But find a good open shop for the long term. They exist. One that does alot of commercial / industrial, and cares about the installation and craftsmanship. After you've been turned out for a while, and been a foreman for a while, the union will come to you. Well, I'm not sure if they do that in Georgia, but they do that here. 

Just be sure to keep your feelings about the union under your hat wherever you work. The union brings about a complex drama that goes back generations and who screwed who over and my granpa this and that, the mention of the union makes people turn red with anger and sputter sentence fragments, it is a sight to behold.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I
> 
> Just be sure to keep your feelings about the union under your hat wherever you work. The union brings about a complex drama that goes back generations and who screwed who over and my granpa this and that, the mention of the union makes people turn red with anger and sputter sentence fragments, it is a sight to behold.


Kinda of like mentioning you know a good open shop at a union meeting.

Get the rope boy we're going to hang this one.


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## leland (Dec 28, 2007)

TRY to pick your employer as they would pick you.
These days you don't have that choice. But you can have principals.
Stick to them.

23 years- 4 employers.

Not a bad record.

I'll stand by it!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Bendezium (Jul 7, 2009)

Sorry to hear that. What exactly went wrong? Studying is one thing, but did you practice under time constraints? When I was studying I was really working on speed, and what killed my test was like 2 or 3 questions where I made one wrong calculation and spent 4-7 minutes on each of those problems. That, and I didn't wear a watch.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Your post seemed fairly well organized. I suppose you took high school algebra and passed with flying colors? How about english classes? 

I'd see if they will go over the test with you? Studying that hard and failing a apptitude test just sounds fishy to me..


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

I didn't find any typos in the OP [probably because I didn't look]...



BUT....


...we butcher the language on a daily basis:



Bendezium said:


> That, and I didn't *where* a watch.



....and this guy is an electrician ???





j/k Bende :thumbsup:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Electrical test*

The accepted textbooks that are used for learning the electrical trade, both theory and knowlege require being able to perform even more than basic math and algebra. It is what it is, a requirement.I have been in the industry for 36 years and almost on a weekly basis I will use a formula or two. If you cannot DO THE MATH, maybe you should try something else. I am not trying to be a smart ass, it's just that in order to have persons in the trade who are capable, not only of just getting through the day, but also capable of passing on that knowlege and skill to those who are in the system.


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## Bendezium (Jul 7, 2009)

Celtic said:


> ....and this guy is an electrician ???
> j/k Bende :thumbsup:


Dang you got me! But I fixed it  And no not an electrician... yet. Good thing the apttitude battery doesn't check my spelling and grammar :laughing:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

brian john said:


> You know you do not have to work union, you may be able to land an open shop job and get in the union later.


you seem to advocate becoming an "organized hand" 
i hope to pull it off one day


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Riveter, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Most electricians only need to know basic math such as a carpenter uses. Basic conduit bending theory. Basic derating. A few other simple math exercises are all that most electricians need. To be honest most "electricians" I know don't really even know code, understand it or have a desire to. They are "mechanics". Good installers. Doing what a supposedly more knowledgeable supervisor is instructing them to do. The tribal learning method is most common. That is someone told you how it was supposed to be done so you now are performing work as you learned. Code is relegated to, "you learned that in school." The same with anything remotely resembling a complex math problem. I've passed college calculus and know that electrician math is not complicated. Trig could be required for complex bending but is rare as most supervisors want it done faster than that.


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

rewire said:


> If you desire to continue in this career path then I would recommend English 99 and Algebra at your local community colledge.


"colledge"? 

I think you may need a course or two in "college" level English. :thumbup:


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

steelersman said:


> "colledge"?


Yes. "Colledge" is for those who flunked out of regular "college."


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

Oh right!


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## steelersman (Mar 15, 2009)

leland said:


> Like that's a bad thing!


Hey dumb****, I just thought I'd point out that you misquoted BrianJohn. Try again and this time pay attention. :no:


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Real electrician...or not*

nitro71, I can tell by the tone of your response that you are not a vindictive person so I wont" treat you that way. I will say that I know many carpenters that I could not fill their shoes..unless it is with sawdust. To say that a REAL electrician needs know only enough math to be a carpenter, and I am not disparaging the carpenter skill,that is just not true. That could only be said by a person who does not know what knowlege and skills it does take to be a good electrician.
I really would just like to give information and to learn from this site, but it upsets me when someone tries to demean our career. If you are a good electrician, and you probably are, you should be proud of what you have learned, and what you can do. You studied and applied yourself; Don't act to others as if it is a "piece of cake."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

The majority of electricians are basically assembly line electricians and really in many cases are skilled laborers.

The better electricians go into fire alarm, control, foreman, service, PLC or some other speciality in the trade.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Assembly line electricians*

Brian John, I, personally have not seen that, but it very well may be true... It does not take a skilled electrician to perform every single task that a skilled electrician must do. It does, however, take a SKILLED electrician to perform a task from start to finish.
That is not to diminish the importance of the people who aid in the installation of a job, but a skilled electrician is of most importance.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Brian John, I, personally have not seen that, but it very well may be true... It does not take a skilled electrician to perform every single task that a skilled electrician must do. It does, however, take a SKILLED electrician to perform a task from start to finish.
> That is not to diminish the importance of the people who aid in the installation of a job, but a skilled electrician is of most importance.


 
On a typical construction job of 200 men I bet 5 are good electricians the rest are installers at best. AND I AM BEING GENEROUS WITH MY NUMBERS.

Running pipe one man with a minimum of skills and a helper.

Same with most construction jobs, more and more companies keep their men specialized, he's good at big conduit and that is all he sees for 19 years of a 20 year career. Same goes for the guy that installs the switchgear. 

Do you think the average electrician installing a piece of switchgear really understands AIC, GFP, OCP, PFR, UV, OV or any other protective devices in the equipment?

Ask the average installer to calculate the primary and secondary amps for a 75 kva transformer at 480 Delta to 208Y/120, 6 months out of an approved apprenticeship course and 20 years later, same answer DUH?, WHAT?

How many members are there on the 3 or 4 major Electrical forums that post regularly?
How many electricians come here once to ask can a 20 amp breaker carry 20 amps?
How many electricians have PCs and surf **** every night but NEVER browse ANY electrical sites to try and further themselves in their chosen profession?
How many electricians own a recent NEC?
How many bitch about having to buy an NEC?
How many ever pickup an NEC after they finish their apprenticeship?
How many own a book much less a book that might give them some insight to their chosen trade?
How many think Black, red, blue and brown, yellow, orange are NEC mandated colors?
How many maintain their license ON THEIR OWN (not forced by inspectors doing their jobs)?
How many when you ask if they meggered or used a torque wrench look you in the like a deer in the head lights?
How many trip off a lighting circuit to find the circuit breaker and dump a building? When you try to explain why you can't do that they stamper but I have always done it this way.

Should I go on I have a million of them.

I am not being cynical, I am stating the facts as I have seen them over 39 years in countless locations and open shop or union. And this is not just my opinion I have questioned many other knowledgeable electricians (and most have a certain disdain for the majority in our trade that do nothing to improve the trade or themselves.


Me I am an idiot, barely graduated high school, told by my high school guidance counselor I was a looser and would always be a looser. So if I can TRY to learn a bit about this trade those that surely are smarter than I am should at a minimum keep up with what is happening in our field.

But for me it does not bother me as I make a living off others lack of knowledge and business has been good.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Brian*

Brianjohn, do not call yourself an idiot...I re-read your dissertation three times and could only find two mispellings. Seriously, though, if you can write like that , you are no idiot.
I am lucky enough to be working in a closed factory setting. We electricians here are constantly bringing in SHOW AND TELLS and explaining them and learning from each other. It is a culture that I try to cultivate.
We are presently discussing the why, and why-nots of power factor correction.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> Brianjohn, do not call yourself an idiot...I re-read your dissertation three times and could only find two mispellings. Seriously, though, if you can write like that , you are no idiot.
> I am lucky enough to be working in a closed factory setting. We electricians here are constantly bringing in SHOW AND TELLS and explaining them and learning from each other. It is a culture that I try to cultivate.
> We are presently discussing the why, and why-nots of power factor correction.


 
Some shops or work places promote education and furthering themselves, others do not. The trade needs more places like your work environment.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

It's strange in Easter WA, it's like taboo for the union guys to talk about code. Non-union isn't quite so bad but there's some of that element there also, depending on shop. Brian hit it right on the head with his dissertation. 

For the OP(original poster), if you can read, write, do basic algebra, simple trigonometry, like working in all weather, climbing ladders, being on your knees, getting dirty, putting up with knuckleheads, putting up with some truly odd personalities, like electricity, like working hard(this is construction) then you'll probably make a good electrician.


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

brian john said:


> The majority of electricians are basically assembly line electricians and really in many cases are skilled laborers.


I agree 100%.



> The better electricians go into fire alarm, control, foreman, service, PLC or some other speciality in the trade.


Well, I'm skilled at fire alarm, and some control and service work too. Does that mean I'm one of the "better" electricians?  I thought I was just a hack.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Peter D said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm skilled at fire alarm, and some control and service work too. Does that mean I'm one of the "better" electricians?  I thought I was just a hack.


 
You may feed us that line but we know better.


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

...not gonna quote that whole thing, but... well said, Brian.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

one big mistake i see our guys that go thru the 4-yr app. program is they stop going to school after the 4 yrs . i encourage them to go to that 5th yr of controls. they get some during the 4 yr program , but the 5th yr is nothing but controls. and since we are a construction/ installation only the few guys that have got more schooling i tell them to QUIT and find another co. in 15 yrs. only 1 has done that. oh yeah, our co. pays 100% of any training/ education employees want to go to. that is code classes, OSHA training, IEC schools .... very few take advantage of it. like me for instance.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

paul d. said:


> oh yeah, our co. pays 100% of any training/ education employees want to go to. that is code classes, OSHA training, IEC schools .... very few take advantage of it. like me for instance.


You mean that the company will pay for any classes or training, AND you get to pick?

That is a great deal right there - I'd take full advantage of that!


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

JohnJ0906 said:


> You mean that the company will pay for any classes or training, AND you get to pick?
> 
> That is a great deal right there - I'd take full advantage of that!


 it is a great deal.... but getting the guys to go is the hard part.


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## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

I started working as full time electrician in 1976 I have done fire alarm,traffic signals, the electrical side of process instrumentation,even a little cathodic protection (BORING) high voltage testing and a lot of motor control and conduit with all of that I have not needed a lot of super complex math.
I think that who ever came up with the idea that electricians need college algebra so they function an a day to day has never worked in the field.
We are forgetting that we are training blut collar workers and not engineers. For the ones that can do all the complex math well bully for them maybe they should go on to be engineers as for me I am just a hand and I do work with engineers a lot I let them do all the figuring . That is what they get paid for.
LISTEN THINK SOLVE
LC


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Several years ago I offered classes in just about anything my men would take from the NEC to Excel. The deal was if the hall offers it they should take it there first. Several courses I suggested were at the local community college, two men said they expected to be paid OT for spending time in an non-union sponsored class.

No problem, I told them I would not pay for any of their non-union classes.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Peter D said:


> Does that mean I'm one of the "better" electricians?  I thought I was just a hack.


I hope you don't fish a wall, like you fish for compliments!


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## user4818 (Jan 15, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I hope you don't fish a wall, like you fish for compliments!


I need no compliments or praises of men, unlike Bob Badger. My outstanding work speaks for itself.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

brian john said:


> The majority of electricians are basically assembly line electricians and really in many cases are skilled laborers.
> 
> The better electricians go into fire alarm, control, foreman, service, PLC or some other speciality in the trade.


 I couldnt agree more. I know so many guys that are perfectly happy being the "coupling guy" or "new commercial guy".. I have a good friend that has been offered a forman position twice at two different shops and both times turned it down. He would say something like "why do I want to stress myself out like that".......and then a few weeks later hes back to complaining that he doesnt make enough money for all his experiance. All he wants to do is resi add ons and commercial spaces like stores and such. He doesnt want to understand that pay increases come with added responsibility.


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## Marker (Oct 20, 2009)

rfortuna25 said:


> I studied my ass off for a good 6 months or so... And I still failed the freaking test... I failed the math and the english so I am not very sure if I want to keep pursuing this as a career change.... I was sent a letter saying I had to take another test called the georgia work keys, which I took before I even took the test for the NJATC and I passed with flying colors so now I am wondering if I can use that test to substitute the actual aptitute test or if that test they told me to take is just a BS test they just want me to take.... I really dont get it I am really good with math and english yet I failed their stupid test.... Any advices on what I should do next?
> 
> PS: At this point I am really about to just throw the towel and let the more intelligent people do this kinda work... Seriously if I cant pass a aptitute test I couldnt even imagine how I would do on a real test if I do get into the apprenticeship :cursing: :bangin:
















I was also thinking about going with good ol' Judge Smails.









_*The world needs ditch diggers, too...*_


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## Lightning Boy (Aug 13, 2009)

Hey Fortuna,

Chin up, things aren't that bad. I had to jump through hoops as well just to be eligible for the entrance exam to IBEW 569.

Sat the exam 4 weeks ago and although I think I passed, I don't think I did well enough to get a call for interview...

Hence I'm chasing up everyone who knows an electrician, contractor etc. and I'm applying to the ABC apprenticeship in addition to calling every electrical contractor in the yellow pages in San Diego County. 
I really, really want to get into this trade and although the union would be a great way to start I'm not going to hang around waiting. As others have said get out there and hit up every electrical "contact" in your area and try to find someone willing to take on a smart/hard working helper/apprentice. 

Good luck and don't give up:0)


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## Dtothej (Jun 25, 2008)

You should sign up and take a few classes at your local community college. The stuff on the test is usually covered in math 99. The math on the test should not be considered anywhere near complex. Its high school level math. There's nothing wrong with the union seeking well rounded individuals.


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