# ABC vs Small shop



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

I have been looking into Associated Builders and Contractors for their Electrical apprentice program, it has tuition and the recruiter says companies will reimburse me but I don't like the uncertain tone he gave me.

I also have an opportunity to start my apprenticeship with a small shop mostly on the job training and I don't think they do more than residential.

Would it be a better idea to go with ABC who promises certifications and thorough training with a contractor, or should I go with the small shop save myself the tuition costs and get on the job experience? I guess my main concern is the small shop would leave me stuck doing dirty work for who knows how long while ABC has a clearer progression path.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Best is to join the IBEW apprentice program.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I don't agree with the premise of the ABC having a "cleaner progression path". They may say that, but in the end you are subject to the same contractors either way. 

It is what you make of it. 

You may graduate the ABC and only find jobs digging ditches. 

Adversely, you may get hired by a contractor today that will train you to be a great electrician.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

macmikeman said:


> Best is to join the IBEW apprentice program.


 Unfortunately that is not an option for me right now, I did look into it and would've preferred it. I figured non-union would be a better start than no start at all.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

HackWork said:


> I don't agree with the premise of the ABC having a "cleaner progression path". They may say that, but in the end you are subject to the same contractors either way.
> 
> It is what you make of it.
> 
> ...


One thing ABC laid out was you earn 6 certifications throughout the apprenticeship. Is that just fluff or do you really need those as an eventual Journeyman? The other contractor I'm looking into has virtually no internet presence so I'm a bit wary on how they can help me progress from apprentice to Journeyman, but I will gladly take the opportunity if they have it.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SparkySparkyBoomMan said:


> One thing ABC laid out was you earn 6 certifications throughout the apprenticeship. Is that just fluff or do you really need those as an eventual Journeyman?


 That depends on your exact area. There may be state requirements, or county, or city. 

I would never believe anything that the ABC (or similar) says without verifying it. 



> The other contractor I'm looking into *has virtually no internet presence* so I'm a bit wary on how they can help me progress from apprentice to Journeyman, but I will gladly take the opportunity if they have it.


IMO, that shouldn't matter at all. Many of the biggest and best contractors out there have no internet presence, or very little such as a dinky website. That often means that they don't need the internet to find new work, they have plenty of work already.

You need to find out the exact path that your municipality requires to progress to journeyman and beyond. Maybe classroom time isn't required at all. Or maybe it is required, but only a small amount. You need to find out these things from the source, not a for-profit organization.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

1st any training is better than no training.

I would think twice about the Resi shop that "will train you on the job".
Yes, it's a starting point and experience.
At some point you may want to learn more than residential.
It can be hard for a Resi only person to transition.
Working only residential may prevent you from getting an unlimited electrical license.
An accredited apprentice program from whoever may be important later to qualify for a journeyman / master license or certain job requirements.
For electrical license requirements there are to many states to discuss the differences. But many want you to have a wide range of experience to qualify, unless you get a residential only license.
Residential tends to pay workers on the lower end of a pay scale.

When they say they will provide you with on the job training, I picture them telling you what needs to get done and showing you once how to do certain tasks. Nothing different than any other EC that hire an unskilled person to do electrical work. Sometimes this make the training up as they go can lead to bad days. Such as jumping on you about how you did something wrong. When it was really their fault for forgetting to tell you or assuming you know how to do something.

There is a huge difference between being told what to do and knowing the codes, theories, and calculations on how to do something. An electrician that has not been trained outside of being told what to do is known as an electrical installer. They need a supervisor to read the blueprint, plan the job, decide what materials, and how to do something.

There is so many great used books out there that cost little, internet forums, manufacture sites, etc. You can learn a lot on your own if you try. But again that does not help you get a later job or possibly qualify for a license.

Another option may be to go to a different area where you can get employer paid training.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hack is right about the internet. Some companies are fine and not needing to advertise.

If the OP posts their metro area someone may be able to provide more details about the state requirements for apprentices and licensing.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

I'm in the Chicago metropolitan area, I get the feeling the residential shop operates in the suburbs not the city. Not sure about ABC they said they'd get me working with a contractor but didn't say where.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

active1 said:


> 1st any training is better than no training.
> 
> I would think twice about the Resi shop that "will train you on the job".
> Yes, it's a starting point and experience.
> ...


Yes that is my main concern, that the small shop will provide a limited experience and training, whereas I presume ABC and their four year program will give me a more rounded education.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Ah, Chicagoland.
Illinois does not have a state electrical license.
It's up to the city level for electrical licensing.
Only a few cities provide electrical testing, with the others reciprocating.
Chicago does not reciprocate (accept licenses) from any other IL city.
But every city must accept Chicago's lic. It's a 1 way street.

Why do I tell you that. Because it's better to work for an EC that holds a Chicago license. Because Chicago want's you to work for one of their license holders to qualify for their electrical exam. It shuts the door on travelers. So if you plan to stay in IL, at some point the best electrical license you can get there is the Chicago one.

That said IL is very weak on licensing requirements. Really only the owner needs to hold an electrical license. Everyone else could be unlicensed and unskilled installers. The license may help you get a job later.

IL dose not require electrical workers to be registered.
What happens is job titles get thrown around.
In IL an apprentice could mean an unskilled electrical worker not in any training program. Where in another state it would require registering and attending classes.

The same with journeyman. After a few years of installing electrical, many electricians there just pronounce themselves as journeyman. Yet they have no classroom training, limited on the job, and never took an exam. Where in other states it could require at the least a wide range of verified experience for a number of years and passing a exam.

An electrical license from anywhere in Illinois is meaningless outside the state. Where other states that have better programs and requirements reciprocate qualifications or the license itself. Some would not conciser experience in IL to qualify for their exam.

Other options may be community college, fast track trade schools, or applying to other locals in IL.

Other states that require apprentice registration with stronger markets offer employer paid ABC.

Some of those Resi EC in IL from the owners, top people, to foreman don't have much of a skill or are knowledgeable outside the basic electrical. You can learn only so much.

Think about if you want to start your career in IL vs another state that has more accepted licensing programs, stronger licensing requirements, better pay, and more work.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

active1 said:


> Ah, Chicagoland.
> Illinois does not have a state electrical license.
> It's up to the city level for electrical licensing.
> Only a few cities provide electrical testing, with the others reciprocating.
> ...


Yikes. Something to consider, huh. I figured this was a good area because there's always some kind of building construction going on. Well, I don't necessarily want to stay in IL, if anything I figured this trade would allow me the freedom to travel and find work in another state. But the downside is I don't have the means to relocate right now. So I think I'll have to see if ABC's accreditation is accepted in other states, and I'm probably going to nix the small shop opportunity.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

SparkySparkyBoomMan said:


> Yikes. Something to consider, huh. I figured this was a good area because there's always some kind of building construction going on. Well, I don't necessarily want to stay in IL, if anything I figured this trade would allow me the freedom to travel and find work in another state. But the downside is I don't have the means to relocate right now. So I think I'll have to see if ABC's accreditation is accepted in other states, and I'm probably going to nix the small shop opportunity.


FWIW,
ABC has zero "accreditation" anywhere. I wasted 2 years of my life in their "classes" I got into the JATC and life was good. Was getting 1.5% of the ABC pay plus very nice benefits. Makes no sense to a young guy but now that Im pushing 60, Im very happy I went that route. :wink:


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

If you're pushing 60 then it's been a minute since you apprenticed with them, I wonder if they've improved since then?

Would love to hear from someone who has worked for them recently too, since that's looking more like my best option. Trust me I'd much rather do Union but at damn near two hours away my Local is not very "local".


----------



## Rique Escamilla (Oct 28, 2017)

that's funny, 2 hours away where im from is normal commute in the bay area, it's 2-3 hours standard.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

Rique Escamilla said:


> that's funny, 2 hours away where im from is normal commute in the bay area, it's 2-3 hours standard.


And 2-3 inches of snow doesn't shut roads down round here but in the South one inch is madness.

Please don't hijack my thread, if you have knowledge about Associated Builders & Contractors I'd love to hear it.


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

SparkySparkyBoomMan said:


> If you're pushing 60 then it's been a minute since you apprenticed with them, I wonder if they've improved since then?
> 
> Would love to hear from someone who has worked for them recently too, since that's looking more like my best option. Trust me I'd much rather do Union but at damn near two hours away my Local is not very "local".


Yeah, I'm sure that tiger changed its stripes.:vs_laugh:


----------



## Lone Crapshooter (Nov 8, 2008)

The ABC and NCCER have trained more electricians accidentally than the IBEW has on purpose. 
Myself I am a IBEW 6 time reject move to Texas went through the ABC program was a apprenticeship instructor moved back to home state was told I should apply with the local was told I was over qualified by the organizer. I have the same government apprenticeship paperwork that a IBEW electrician has but mine says Associated Builders and Contractors rather than IBEW and NJATC.

The IBEW rank and file membership mindset is that they have been brained washed into believing that they are the only ones that can do electrical work which is just not true. 
Some of the largest electrical contractors in the country are non-signatory contractors .

One other thing It does not do us any good to hear about how good the education and benefits are if you cant get in the IBEW they might as well not exist.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Wow, talk about a chip on your shoulder....


----------



## Rique Escamilla (Oct 28, 2017)

https://youtu.be/_MSX0bto2uo


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Lone Crapshooter said:


> The ABC and NCCER have trained more "electricians" accidentally than the IBEW has on purpose. :lol:
> 
> I have the same government apprenticeship paperwork that a IBEW electrician has but mine says Associated Builders and Contractors rather than IBEW and NJATC.


I'll respect your opinion but my experience was vastly different than yours. Just want to remind you that unless you are the lead dog, the view isn't going to change.

You have paperwork, I have a brotherhood.

Maybe this will help you understand:


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

If you're in in it for a college degree now or later you have to be careful about the route you go. In another words does the program give you a 2 year degree. And later can you take that 2 year degree and use it towards a 4 year degree. There is no clear cut across the board answer. It's up to each 4 year college what classes, how many credits, and how much they will charge to transfer a transferring student to continue on to 4 years. In some cases they will accept the class credit but want to charge you a transfer fee as much or more than retaking the credit hour. IMO many of the easy transfers are the result of back room deals in the local market.

Such as when I went to the local community college, the first question is do I want a 2 or 4 year degree. Finely they explained that the local university would not transfer certain classes because they wanted to provide them. IMO it's not so much educational standards, but more profit motivated.

I didn't understand this years ago when I went to trade school. Yes, I got a 2 year degree. Can I transfer that to get a 4 year, 99.9% no. Some apprenticeships have an option to take a few more core classes and get an associates degree. When some say ABC is not accredited, think that's what they are talking about.

The reality is you want to be an electrician. Very few electricians have a 4 year degree. At that point they are probably managers, electrical engineers, or left the electrical field. One state survey I read was 5-10% of their lic electricians had 4 year degrees. Out of those I wonder how many were related to the electrical field. 

About every electrician takes unaccredited classes every year or two. I average 50-100 hours a year. Doing required CE, renewing certs, reviewing code changes, or learning something new. Some electricians would be Dr's if all the hours counted.

For school you have 4 types of programs. 

1. Community college. My experience is they try to offer too wide of an education, not focusing on your career field. The scheduling and availability makes it hard to finish even in 2 years.

2. Apprenticeships. Focused on your trade. It goes for years. Like a second job. It can be tied together with your employer. You mess up on one it could cost you the other.

3. Fast track schools. You go to class everyday, 8 hrs a day. They try to teach you everything in months. They are good in that it conditions people to a normal work day. The bad is the cost.

4. Military. 

For a non union employer any would be acceptable. Worked with people from all types of schools. It really goes back to the person and how hard they try to learn and not the school. Every program has a few people that make it thru and still can't pass some of the easier journeyman tests.

Does the OP have a state in mind they may transfer to?


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

@active1 my family has been considering Iowa for a while even before I became interested in this. If the market is bad there we were thinking maybe Colorado, or even Tennessee have some family down there.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

States like Colorado is where it gets hard for an IL transplant to work as a journeyman in their state. Going off memory I believe you need a CO master to sign off on your experience to qualify for their test. I don't remember Iowas requirements, but I believe once you have Iowa you can reciprocate with CO.

That's where it can get difficult going from one state to another. Years later when you become experienced, some states require everyone working to be licensed but wont conciser your experience. So then you're classified as a helper or apprentice. Some states have the view, if you didn't work under a person recognized by that state, than you have no experience. Not many states recognize any IL license. 

Many states on their journeyman application it has a place for your employer or supervisor to sign off on your years experience. Working in IL you would not be able to do this. Because the supervisor or EC qualifications would not be recognized outside of IL.

Like I posted earlier, other states offer a lot more in the non-union including paid apprenticeship. Take this Denver CL ad:
https://denver.craigslist.org/trd/d/all-levels-electrical/6461678779.html

Very nice benefit package. 
The typical IL Resi non-union EC offers very little training and benefits.

CO work experience and journeyman license is much more respected and accepted in the US.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

Thanks so much for all the information. Well, we aren't moving anytime soon, and I really want to get started on learning this, I have zero experience and I'm not getting any younger. So I guess I have to consider either staying in IL or be prepared for what's to come if I decide to relocate.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Seriously, read my first post again about the ABC.

Go to work for an electrician. Find a good company. Even if its only 1 part of the trade, you will still get a year or two of training and experience. Take a couple of inexpensive night courses to learn the theory and code side of it. 

I'm not a fan of ABC, but I am also not bashing them here. The simple truth is that they won't do anything for you that you can't do on your own. They are a for-profit organization which will "sell" you with promises of certifications and great jobs, etc. But in the end, there is NOTHING special about the jobs they will refer you to, nor their education.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

HackWork said:


> Seriously, read my first post again about the ABC.
> 
> Go to work for an electrician. Find a good company. Even if its only 1 part of the trade, you will still get a year or two of training and experience. Take a couple of inexpensive night courses to learn the theory and code side of it.
> 
> I'm not a fan of ABC, but I am also not bashing them here. The simple truth is that they won't do anything for you that you can't do on your own. They are a for-profit organization which will "sell" you with promises of certifications and great jobs, etc. But in the end, there is NOTHING special about the jobs they will refer you to, nor their education.


So in your personal opinion, you'd recommend I take the small shop opportunity and take classes on the side? I kind of like the sound of that. Active1's input seems to support that too, if apparently IL experience is not recognized in other states. Only reason I even considered ABC is because I have family that works there (not trained there though) and because they present a sort of total package learning experience (at a price, though). As someone who has no experience at all it is somewhat comforting to think they would be able to teach me, and I basically couldn't find anything definitive that supports pure OTJ experience.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

SparkySparkyBoomMan said:


> So in your personal opinion, you'd recommend I take the small shop opportunity and take classes on the side?


 Yes, but not specifically a small shop. If that's the job you can get, then go for it. You can learn just as much, sometimes more, in a small shop. Or you may find a good job for a larger shop.

It really depends on the exact situation. If after some time you find yourself doing the same thing over and over and not learning, then you can make a move. But you will still have all that experience that you gained.



> because they present a sort of total package learning experience (at a price, though).


 And that right there is what I don't want you to be fooled by. Their gimmicks of "6 certifications, more than any other course!!!" and crap like that. 

Their total package is nothing that you can't do yourself.


----------



## SparkySparkyBoomMan (Jan 18, 2018)

Thanks, I do appreciate all the info. See that's the reason I came here and ask all these questions. I got taken for a ride for my BA degree I don't want to repeat that naivety.


----------



## active1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Staying in IL ABC is not necessary.
It can only help.
Reading electrical textbooks on your own could also help.
In another words it's an organized way to learn.
You can do a lot of it yourself on your own if you can stay motivated.

At the end of ABC it would be 1 more thing to put on a resume, and may count to helping you getting a journeyman lic by using the training for 6 months or 1 year work exp. 

Trying to say all training is good. ABC will help. Few employers require an apprenticeship. But don't expect it to take you the top of the trade.

Starting out just get any job. Stay with companies that work safe.
Worry about a good one once you learn a few things.


----------



## Travvy (Sep 17, 2017)

SparkySparkyBoomMan said:


> I have been looking into Associated Builders and Contractors for their Electrical apprentice program, it has tuition and the recruiter says companies will reimburse me but I don't like the uncertain tone he gave me.
> 
> I also have an opportunity to start my apprenticeship with a small shop mostly on the job training and I don't think they do more than residential.
> 
> Would it be a better idea to go with ABC who promises certifications and thorough training with a contractor, or should I go with the small shop save myself the tuition costs and get on the job experience? I guess my main concern is the small shop would leave me stuck doing dirty work for who knows how long while ABC has a clearer progression path.


I hope I’m using the quote function properly. 
Anyway, I’m in a very similar situation. I was considering IBEW but then I got a job with a very small, new company that will be sending me to ABC in September this year. As for getting stuck doing dirty work, I’ve experienced the exact opposite. My boss has me by his side all day. I do see the advantage to union training, but there seems to be a lot of politics and lay offs. It’s hard to get an accurate reading regarding what’s better because it seems like union guys think IBEW is the only way to go and non-union guys generally think the union is terrible. 

The problem I’m having is that I feel like I’m not learning the theory and math the way I should be. I could do a service upgrade tomorrow (not that I would) but I feel like I don’t know the formulas and math the way a first year union guy would. I’m hoping this changes when I start school later this year.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Travvy, as someone who normally recommends the union route to people, I will say that your situation sounds great.

The problem is that it's very, very hard to find an opportunity like yours. 

99% of the people just starting out who apply to a non-union contractor won't have the contractor pay their way thru school and be willing to keep that person by their side and train them like you posted. 

The union is going to force training, and most locals have a very good program.


----------



## FaultCurrent (May 13, 2014)

The ABC aka Merit Shop is just a way for big contractors to have a cheap labor pool. They usually have have 1 or 2 guys that are well paid and kinda know what they are doing. The rest of the guys are just a revolving door of installers. The ABC certifications are useless for the most part. The ABC is a way for ABC contractors to try and get prevailing wage and federal contracts while paying less for labor and making more profit. OMG and the work that they do for the FED's would make your hair stand on end. 

You will be way better off working for a good small shop where you show the boss what you can do. Get better money and better experience than working for Flex and BX Electric. 

Big difference between ABC and union is that you have an agreement. ABC can pay what they want aka Merit Shop idea. You will always make less money in the ABC.


----------



## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

Southeast Power said:


> SparkySparkyBoomMan said:
> 
> 
> > Yikes. Something to consider, huh. I figured this was a good area because there's always some kind of building construction going on. Well, I don't necessarily want to stay in IL, if anything I figured this trade would allow me the freedom to travel and find work in another state. But the downside is I don't have the means to relocate right now. So I think I'll have to see if ABC's accreditation is accepted in other states, and I'm probably going to nix the small shop opportunity.
> ...


I looked at abc website it seems to me like the only one that benefits is the contractor , they don’t set the contractors to a set wage or contract 
You can be fired at any point ,

And have to nogotiate your wage when you wrk for the next contractor 

I like that they send you to school 
Not shure if they make you pay for it or not .

But abc in my opion seems like a plot of contractors and corporations to 
Pay low wages and give the workers 
No contracts , or ground to stand on .

And make it seem like their doing right by you bc they send you to school .

This is just my opion on it.

If I were you I would get into the field get some good hands on for a year or two and then apply to the ibew .

They will pay for school 5 years,
Top pay guranteed raises till you max out.

Pension , Heath care , etc
And the contractors are set to a contract that they have to follow .


----------



## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

FaultCurrent said:


> The ABC aka Merit Shop is just a way for big contractors to have a cheap labor pool. They usually have have 1 or 2 guys that are well paid and kinda know what they are doing. The rest of the guys are just a revolving door of installers. The ABC certifications are useless for the most part. The ABC is a way for ABC contractors to try and get prevailing wage and federal contracts while paying less for labor and making more profit. OMG and the work that they do for the FED's would make your hair stand on end.
> 
> You will be way better off working for a good small shop where you show the boss what you can do. Get better money and better experience than working for Flex and BX Electric.
> 
> Big difference between ABC and union is that you have an agreement. ABC can pay what they want aka Merit Shop idea. You will always make less money in the ABC.


I totally agree with everything you said 

I have no experience with abc just from what I read on their website .

But what you said about the Prevaling wage makes sense bc 
When I was non union I worked for 
An ec that did fed wrk and he had to pay me jw wage bc I was never in a

Federal approved apprenticeship program even tho I only had two years exp witch jw wage in nyc was around 55 ph 

So now the abc contract can pay their men apprentice wage on fed
Jobs instead of having to pay them 
Jw wage

Bc their in an “ apprenticeship “

But yet have no Contract or rights .


----------



## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

FaultCurrent said:


> The ABC aka Merit Shop is just a way for big contractors to have a cheap labor pool. They usually have have 1 or 2 guys that are well paid and kinda know what they are doing. The rest of the guys are just a revolving door of installers. The ABC certifications are useless for the most part. The ABC is a way for ABC contractors to try and get prevailing wage and federal contracts while paying less for labor and making more profit. OMG and the work that they do for the FED's would make your hair stand on end.
> 
> You will be way better off working for a good small shop where you show the boss what you can do. Get better money and better experience than working for Flex and BX Electric.
> 
> Big difference between ABC and union is that you have an agreement. ABC can pay what they want aka Merit Shop idea. You will always make less money in the ABC.


I haven't been following this thread but I just want to say "well said" 
Florida is a very anti Union state and I see the ABC castoffs running from shop to shop trying to get a buck more somehow.
Not a single one I started out with remained in the trade.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I have worked with some very good ABC electricians I think schooling is area dependent. We have had members complain about lousy IBEW teachers and great ABC schools and the other way around.


I feel IBEW is the best route if possible, ABC next, and nothing wrong with starting our residential BUT move on after a year, you want a wide variety of training.


----------



## Switchgear277 (Mar 18, 2017)

What area are you from I’m in nj , ny 
Area and I haven’t seen these guys.

I bet you their sponsored by the same ppl that sponsor the right to wrk laws and the union busters that 
Own hudge corporations and pay to get anti union bills paced .


----------

