# 14/2 vs 12/2



## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

If you use a 15A breaker why use #12?

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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

Forge Boyz said:


> If you use a 15A breaker why use #12?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


People do... might be locally demanded by inspectors, might be spec’d, might be worried about voltage drop. I have used 12 in real big houses.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

I can see it for voltage drop. Specs can get a little out of hand sometimes. We bid a job recently that we were to size wire for continuous load, then up 1 size for every circuit.

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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Unless it's a large run or a circuit going to the garage. I don't really see a reason to upsize. Waste of money otherwise.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

If the customer is willing to pay for it, I will run whatever oversized wire they want.
Is it a requirement, other than for voltage drop, No


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

Forge Boyz said:


> I can see it for voltage drop. Specs can get a little out of hand sometimes. We bid a job recently that we were to size wire for continuous load, then up 1 size for every circuit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I definitely have oversized wire on commercial and industrial, and it has definitely saved my ass when equipment didn’t match cut sheets. Residential, it probably isn’t worth it unless it’s to an outbuilding or something.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

The reason I even ask is cause I’m on a preventative maintenance contract and the ****ers have everything wired with 12 and very short lengths in overfilled boxes. I thought someone might have a sensible reason, and I’d feel less frustrated.


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

Surprised you have a preventative maintenance contract on a house. On a lot of my commercial jobs the specs will say nothing smaller than a 20 amp circuit, so number 12 goes on everything. I could potentially see someone doing it on a high end residential house where the customer keeps doing change orders and the electrician wants to be covered if they add stuff in the future.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

MotoGP1199 said:


> Surprised you have a preventative maintenance contract on a house. On a lot of my commercial jobs the specs will say nothing smaller than a 20 amp circuit, so number 12 goes on everything. I could potentially see someone doing it on a high end residential house where the customer keeps doing change orders and the electrician wants to be covered if they add stuff in the future.


It’s public housing in the arctic


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

I don't think I've ever put #12 on a 15 amp breaker. 

The few houses I've done, lights are always #14 on 15 amp breakers, outlets are always #12 on 20s.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

That explains the nose.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I did a house for a friend’s dad long time ago where dad ran all the wiring, I was to just make all the connections.
He used 14 awg but he ran 3 wire everywhere!


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

eddy current said:


> If the customer is willing to pay for it, I will run whatever oversized wire they want.
> Is it a requirement, other than for voltage drop, No


So you would use 6/2 for a 15 amp outlet ???😂🤔


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

micromind said:


> I don't think I've ever put #12 on a 15 amp breaker.
> 
> The few houses I've done, lights are always #14 on 15 amp breakers, outlets are always #12 on 20s.


Does the NEC require all residential receptacles to be 20A or is it just a common practice? Only reason I ask is because CEC only requires kitchen counter receptacles to be either 20A or 15A split plugs.


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## micromind (Aug 11, 2007)

Phillipd said:


> Does the NEC require all residential receptacles to be 20A or is it just a common practice? Only reason I ask is because CEC only requires kitchen counter receptacles to be either 20A or 15A split plugs.


The NEC requires kitchen, laundry and bathroom outlets to be 20 amp but not general use ones. 

The main reason I run 20s everywhere is because power is about 10¢/KWHR here and people tend to use portable heaters a lot.


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## jarrydee (Aug 24, 2019)

14/2 for everything except bath,kitchen,garage,and basement receptacles


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Phillipd said:


> Does the NEC require all residential receptacles to be 20A or is it just a common practice? Only reason I ask is because CEC only requires kitchen counter receptacles to be either 20A or 15A split plugs.


The only time a 20 amp receptacle is needed is if you use a single receptacle on a designated 20 amp circuit. The nec requires circuits to be protected by 20 amp but the actual devices can be 15 amp.


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

micromind said:


> The NEC requires kitchen, laundry and bathroom outlets to be 20 amp but not general use ones.
> 
> The main reason I run 20s everywhere is because power is about 10¢/KWHR here and people tend to use portable heaters a lot.


that’s reasonable ,it’s 15c/kw CDN funds. So far we’ve been running 14/2 to just about everything receptacle/lighting related except counter plugs with up to 8 plugs per circuit. We run dedicated circuits to the fridge microwave dish washer range hood wash machine and air exchanger all 14/2.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Metersocket648 said:


> So you would use 6/2 for a 15 amp outlet ???😂🤔


I’d run 500kcmil if they wanted it and payed for it😉


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Phillipd said:


> that’s reasonable ,it’s 15c/kw CDN funds. So far we’ve been running 14/2 to just about everything receptacle/lighting related except counter plugs with up to 8 plugs per circuit. We run dedicated circuits to the fridge microwave dish washer range hood wash machine and air exchanger all 14/2.


You can put 12 outlets on one circuit by code if you really wanted to


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Depends who is paying.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

eddy current said:


> You can put 12 outlets on one circuit by code if you really wanted to


That's just a suggestion ... like speed limits


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## Phillipd (Jan 7, 2020)

eddy current said:


> You can put 12 outlets on one circuit by code if you really wanted to


Ya you can but it’s nice to go 8-10 then in a years time when they call you back wanting more it’s not a big deal


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

eddy current said:


> I’d run 500kcmil if they wanted it and payed for it😉


Well now I know if I see 500Kcmil feeding a 15 amp receptical, I know who it was 😂😂😂


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Metersocket648 said:


> Well now I know if I see 500Kcmil feeding a 15 amp receptical, I know who it was 😂😂😂


It would not be the first overkill spec that I have had to do on a job. Customer / engineer want it and pay for it, no prob, here ya go.


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## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I once worked for a guy that rewired houses in 12/2. Lights, everything.


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

ohm it hertz said:


> I once worked for a guy that rewired houses in 12/2. Lights, everything.


I worked my apprenticeship in Stowe Vermont wiring custom homes and I don’t think we ever used any 14 wire. I actually liked it. 1st house I moved into when I left VT used to trip the breaker when I had too many lights on and ran the vacuum.

I don’t care so much about the lights now a days with so many LED’s but if I wired my own house you can believenot one receptacle circuit would be run in 14 wire.


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

blueheels2 said:


> I worked my apprenticeship in Stowe Vermont wiring custom homes and I don’t think we ever used any 14 wire. I actually liked it. 1st house I moved into when I left VT used to trip the breaker when I had too many lights on and ran the vacuum.
> 
> I don’t care so much about the lights now a days with so many LED’s but if I wired my own house you can believenot one receptacle circuit would be run in 14 wire.


You and I think alike


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I live in a house built in 1979. Other than the stove, dryer and AC, all circuits are 14 awg, 15 amp.
In 15 years I have never tripped a breaker and there are 5 of us in the house.
12 awg for regular circuits is overkill and a waste of money.


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

eddy current said:


> I live in a house built in 1979. Other than the stove, dryer and AC, all circuits are 14 awg, 15 amp.
> In 15 years I have never tripped a breaker and there are 5 of us in the house.
> 12 awg for regular circuits is overkill and a waste of money.


Not if your trying to prevent other people's stupidity from burning down the damn house, see, if you don't use space heaters 24/7 and use extension cords for permanent use with overloading outlets with power straps, then 14 away would be fine, but with people growing more and more stupid each year, I cant help but wire every outlet with 12 awg, it saves the stupid people and it saves my ass from having my wiring potentially eliminate them from the gene pool


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Metersocket648 said:


> Not if your trying to prevent other people's stupidity from burning down the damn house, see, if you don't use space heaters 24/7 and use extension cords for permanent use with overloading outlets with power straps, then 14 away would be fine, but with people growing more and more stupid each year, I cant help but wire every outlet with 12 awg, it saves the stupid people and it saves my ass from having my wiring potentially eliminate them from the gene pool


12 awg wire will not prevent stupidity, nor will it stop extension cords from starting fires. Those circuits can also be overloaded, but that is why we have overcurrent protection.


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## Metersocket648 (Feb 8, 2021)

eddy current said:


> 12 awg wire will not prevent stupidity, nor will it stop extension cords from starting fires. Those circuits can also be overloaded, but that is why we have overcurrent protection.


True, you do have a point, the only time i do use 14 awg for gen purpose outlets is when we are doing trac homes, mainly only the bedrooms, living rooms, and home offices


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## samgregger (Jan 23, 2013)

eddy current said:


> I’d run 500kcmil if they wanted it and payed for it😉


Do you have a part number for those lollypops?


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

samgregger said:


> Do you have a part number for those lollypops?


Nope. It would require a major splice in a separate J-box, but again, if they want it and pay for it, they can have it.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Great point.

With LED lighting, the only way most homeowners/tenants will overload breakers is doing something they shouldnt be doing-- two space heaters, etc.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Phillipd said:


> Does the NEC require all residential receptacles to be 20A or is it just a common practice? Only reason I ask is because CEC only requires kitchen counter receptacles to be either 20A or 15A split plugs.


The NEC doesn't require 20a receptacles anywhere except in the case when a singlex receptacle is used on a 20 amp circuit. The NEC requires 20a circuits in places, but 15 amp duplexes can be used on those circuits. The requirement for the T slot is not an NEC thing for 20a circuits like it is in Canada.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

The problem with space heaters, and some appliances and devices sold in the US and Canada is the prevalance of 15 amp circuits and the manufacturer's want to sell the most powerful thing possible, be it a heater, blow drier, computer gaming rig, bitcoin miner, or whatever the must-have cooking appliance of the month is. 

Any singular device over 1000 watts should have a 20a t-slot required receptacle. A 1500 watt heater or a 1650 watt window shaker portable air conditioner should not be mass produced to be considered "just plug it in! Works in any outlet!"


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

eddy current said:


> I’d run 500kcmil if they wanted it and payed for it😉


I like to see you terminate that on a 20A breaker.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> I like to see you terminate that on a 20A breaker.


Read post #35


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

LGLS said:


> The problem with space heaters, and some appliances and devices sold in the US and Canada is the prevalance of 15 amp circuits and the manufacturer's want to sell the most powerful thing possible, be it a heater, blow drier, computer gaming rig, bitcoin miner, or whatever the must-have cooking appliance of the month is.
> 
> Any singular device over 1000 watts should have a 20a t-slot required receptacle. A 1500 watt heater or a 1650 watt window shaker portable air conditioner should not be mass produced to be considered "just plug it in! Works in any outlet!"


100% agree with this. Most of the melted **** I’ve seen is from a space Heater plugged in to shitty old wiring.


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

14/2 or 14/3 from the wall switch to the lighting/ceiling fan outlet.
#12/2 or 12/3 on everything else.
20 amp circuit breakers only no 15 amph breakers.
Most home owners can't tell the difference between #14 and #12.
When they replace a breaker themselves or are having trips, they just replace that 15 with a 20.
Seen it on a lot of homes over the years.


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

Wiz1997, So, a lot of homeowners change breakers where you are? I’ve seen them do a lot of stuff they didn’t know how to do, but they’re usually scared of the panel for some reason.


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## MANTHEPAYROLL (Mar 30, 2021)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Let’s hear opinions on 12 or 14 NMD for your standard resIdential circuits protected by 15A breakers.


 Run #12 for everything when you can, including 20 amp rated receptacles and you'll never second guess a circuit that you ran again. Now if they'll just outlaw that bare ground in Romex then the electrical world would be a better place.....


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

MANTHEPAYROLL said:


> Now if they'll just outlaw that bare ground in Romex then the electrical world would be a better place.....


Why?

The armoured cable we use up here (ac90) also has a bare ground, FYI


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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

I just don’t see the need for #12 on 15A. By the same rationale I’d be pulling 10 awg to my t slot plugs. Which I’m definitely not gonna be doing. And I like bare grounds in cable, hasn’t been much of a problem if people know what they’re doing, and if they don’t, there you are already


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## MotoGP1199 (Aug 11, 2014)

The bare grounds are not an issue if they are tucked away in the back. I do prefer an insulated ground in tight boxes or panels. However some of the hack work I've seen, some of the grounding is only made by the bare wire touching the sides of a box as their crappy drywall screw fell out or was never installed. Its not a good ground but at least it has a chance of doing something, lol


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## wiz1997 (Mar 30, 2021)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Wiz1997, So, a lot of homeowners change breakers where you are? I’ve seen them do a lot of stuff they didn’t know how to do, but they’re usually scared of the panel for some reason.


Here in Texas a homeowner is allowed to do their own electrical work on the home, if they own it and reside in it, without a license. 
Permits may still be required by local authorities and inspections required depending on the scope of work.
Most homeowners don't tackle jobs involving the main panel, but since utube came about, many are doing just that.
Then there is the old saying "They know enough to be dangerous".


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## blueheels2 (Apr 22, 2009)

wiz1997 said:


> Here in Texas a homeowner is allowed to do their own electrical work on the home, if they own it and reside in it, without a license.
> Permits may still be required by local authorities and inspections required depending on the scope of work.
> Most homeowners don't tackle jobs involving the main panel, but since utube came about, many are doing just that.
> Then there is the old saying "They know enough to be dangerous".


That’s how I was after 1 year in the electrical trade. Thought I knew a lot and wired my moms house. No inspections in the area we lived. Bank didn’t even require one for the home. Fast forward 3.5 years and I’m finishing up my 3rd year of apprenticeship and I realize all the stuff I didn’t know when I built her house. Had to go back and rebuild the service. Had no idea how clueless I was lol.


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## B-Nabs (Jun 4, 2014)

eddy current said:


> Nope. It would require a major splice in a separate J-box, but again, if they want it and pay for it, they can have it.


I once did a job installing remote data racks throughout a large warehouse, and each one had a 208v 20A twist lock receptacle. I think the longest run was 1500' from the UPS panel to the rack; we pulled 4/0 Al and split bolted it down to #10 at each end to fit on the breaker/receptacle terminals. 

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## Bluenose for rent (Nov 6, 2020)

B-Nabs said:


> I once did a job installing remote data racks throughout a large warehouse, and each one had a 208v 20A twist lock receptacle. I think the longest run was 1500' from the UPS panel to the rack; we pulled 4/0 Al and split bolted it down to #10 at each end to fit on the breaker/receptacle terminals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


Woah, they need some transformers and subpanels


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## AKGreen (Feb 3, 2021)

Other than the cost of upsizing, inspectors here get suspicious of any weirdness and begin looking more closely, probably justified based on their experience.


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

14 is already derated for residential. No need for 12 IMO


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## matt1124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I catch a lot of crap from electrician friends around here for using 14AWG. It wasn't allowed by a local revision for a long time. Only where needed with 20 amp stuff. Even without backstabbing, it trims out so much faster and easier. 4 gang switch boxes have tons of room and you can just about curl the wire with your finger, fits around the screw post easier...

"Oh but you have to carry a whole 'nother roll of wire on the truck" they say. Yep, next to my 12/3, 12/4, 10/2, 10/3, 8/2, 6/3.... gosh it's so hard, I'm sure glad it's color coded is what I tell them.

"Oh but what about space heaters".... my company does hvac, electrical, and plumbing so my response is usually "if they are using space heaters then we haven't done our job right"

There's a time for 12/2, sometimes you're way far away from a panel and you know it'll be loaded up a little but but for us, we love the 1000' reels of 14/2.


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## achelectricalservice (Apr 20, 2016)

Maybe they consider it commercial because it's rental property over 3 family? In which it would call for no wire smaller than 12 for branch circuits typically. Typically I run 14 for lights and 12 for outlets but that's not required by code or ahs here.


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## Forge Boyz (Nov 7, 2014)

B-Nabs said:


> I once did a job installing remote data racks throughout a large warehouse, and each one had a 208v 20A twist lock receptacle. I think the longest run was 1500' from the UPS panel to the rack; we pulled 4/0 Al and split bolted it down to #10 at each end to fit on the breaker/receptacle terminals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


I'm surprised you were allowed to use AL for that. Seems like to people specing servers/data racks aluminum is a bad word.

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## jrl5687 (Jan 7, 2019)

Besides electrical, I build custom spec homes. I wire all receptacles in 20a automatically. The only thing I do in 15a anymore is general lighting and smokes detectors. Thats just what I do, not required. It's a good selling point on new construction houses at least out here.


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## greenpro (Feb 21, 2021)

Bluenose for rent said:


> Let’s hear opinions on 12 or 14 NMD for your standard resIdential circuits protected by 15A breakers.


Some municipalities la NYC required a minimum of AWG 12,also if custumer paid for materials some electrician run all general lighting circuits(receptacles and lights)in #12 instead than #14 so they don’t care about materials cost


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