# Fuel Dispenser and Valence Light - Class 1 Div 2???



## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I have seen cases where engineers can sign off on things like that, so it stands to reason that an architect can also. However I do not think that it is a good idea to use an FS box where you are describing. If, however this architect does a bunch of gas stations and knows his stuff and is willing to put it in writing, and back you up with an engineer to the AHJ and the insurance underwriter then go for it. Whats he saving by loosing the fitting and using an FS box 60 bucks?


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## AECSparky (Aug 27, 2009)

Explosion Proof Box = $40
EYS = $15
Nipple = $2

Big Boom & Multiple Victims,

Priceless

Yes, around $60 x 12 Dispensers = $720. Total Change Order was $4900. To do it his way, $4200.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Beauxcoup Paper work and a statement from your company that you felt that it was in violation of the NEC and quote the code. I am at my folks house in Alabama and dont have a code book with me to help on that one. Sounds like an architect that I worked around on the West Bank - old fart that was never and had never been wrong ever. Good luck.


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

AECSparky said:


> Explosion Proof Box = $40
> EYS = $15
> Nipple = $2
> 
> ...


 I’m not sure I completely follow the proposed setup, but IMO, any conduit entering or leaving a Class 1 location, including the dispenser itself, must have a seal. 
 514.7 references 511.7 for wiring and equipment above Class 1 locations, so that might be worth looking over.
 I would also ask your inspector what he thinks. You guys are the licensed pros, so will be the ones held accountable when the crap hits the fan. To the best of my knowledge, architects have no authority to disregard or alter the NEC at all.


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

B,

Running EX proof to a strip fixture makes no sense. Is this fixture part of 

the dispensing equipment, or, is it an add on that was not part of the

listed equipment ?


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## Benaround (May 5, 2009)

R,

Running ex proof to a strip fixture makes no sense ! Did the fixture come 

as part of the dispensing unit or is this an add on and not part of the listed equipment ?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Benaround said:


> Did the fixture come as part of the dispensing unit or is this an add on and not part of the listed equipment ?


This IS the 1st question that would need to be answered in NC. Does it have a UL label? 

If it does, and it comes with a cord and plug for power, then you would just need to keep the receptacle above 18" and 2' plus from the dispenser. If your conduit to the receptacle passes through a classifed location then a sealoff would be required in the conduit. If you came down from the canopy on the column, then a sealoff would not be required because it would't enter a classifed location (assuming the dispenser is 2' from the column).


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

I could be wrong, but I believe the UL listing only applies to the area enclosed within the dispenser itself, not to external field installed cord and plug connected equipment.
Even so, I’m not sure a regular WP in-use cover could satisfactorily contain arcing and prevent sparks from entering the Class 1 location below as required.
 It would be interesting to here the outcome from the OP in this case.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

KayJay said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe the UL listing only applies to the area enclosed within the dispenser itself, not to external field installed cord and plug connected equipment.
> Even so, I’m not sure a regular WP in-use cover could satisfactorily contain arcing and prevent sparks from entering the Class 1 location below *as required*.


"as required" ?

Can you help me out and tell me what section prohibits an outlet from being installed above (but out of) a C1D1 location?

In NC, anything that has electricity going to it pretty much needs to have a UL sticker. Even a cord and plug connected valance light that is an after market item (that's probably not sold by the dispenser manufacturer).


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## KayJay (Jan 20, 2008)

hardworkingstiff said:


> "as required" ?
> 
> Can you help me out and tell me what section prohibits an outlet from being installed above (but out of) a C1D1 location?
> 
> In NC, anything that has electricity going to it pretty much needs to have a UL sticker. Even a cord and plug connected valance light that is an after market item (that's probably not sold by the dispenser manufacturer).


Since we don’t have all the specific installation details and since most of the fuel dispensers I see today have overhead hose reel racks, the Class1 Division 2 location should extend to the top of the hose reel rack. 
 IMO, any receptacle located within this area would need to comply with 501.145 and be identified for the location, meaning Class1 Division 2.

The UL listing I was referring to was my doubt that the dispenser and the cord and plug connected fixture are part of a listed assembly, since it appears that the OP is using third party parts specified by others to complete the lighting installation.
I believe that normally, a complete listed assembly would contain all parts necessary to connect the assembly, except for possibly the seal for the conduit leaving the top of the dispenser. As such, IMO the UL listing for the dispenser pump would only apply to the area inside the dispenser itself, not to other external field installed equipment.
As I said though, without all the specifics, I could be wrong.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

KayJay said:


> Since we don’t have all the specific installation details and since most of the fuel dispensers I see today have overhead hose reel racks, the Class1 Division 2 location should extend to the top of the hose reel rack.


 OK, I agree.


> IMO, any receptacle located within this area would need to comply with 501.145 and be identified for the location, meaning Class1 Division 2.


 I still agree.


> The UL listing I was referring to was my doubt that the dispenser and the cord and plug connected fixture are part of a listed assembly, since it appears that the OP is using third party parts specified by others to complete the lighting installation.


 yup.


> I believe that normally, a complete listed assembly would contain all parts necessary to connect the assembly, except for possibly the seal for the conduit leaving the top of the dispenser. As such, IMO the UL listing for the dispenser pump would only apply to the area inside the dispenser itself, not to other external field installed equipment.


 I would say it only applies to the dispenser, but I think we are saying the same thing.


> As I said though, without all the specifics, I could be wrong.


Yea, tough to proceed without all of the specifics.



> Even so, I’m not sure a regular WP in-use cover could satisfactorily contain arcing and prevent sparks from entering the Class 1 location below *as required*.


I'll ask my question again, what code prevents installing a receptacle above but out of a C1D2 location? I'm only questioning your statement that there is a requirement for a receptacle to "contain arcing and prevent sparks from entering a C1 location below". Where did you find that requirement? It may be a good idea, but I don't know where it is required.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

I cant see a cord and plug device anywhere near a gas pump being a good idea - code or no code.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Let's say someone made a valance that had a ballast and lamps in it that were both located more than 18" above the top of the dispenser. Let's say the lamps were enclosed (not open). Let's say a factory cord left the valance at a height greater than 18" above the dispenser and plugged into a receptacle located on the canopy column that was more than 18" from any part of the dispenser (in other words, outside the C1D2 location as defined in exhibit 514.1), and lastely, let's say the manufacturer actually had a UL label on the fixture.

Now, what NEC code would be violated?


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

One more thing to consider, the dispenser manufacturers install lights inside their units, they also install heaters. They are all below the top of the dispenser where the fuel exits.

People tend to make up rules to comply with their beliefs. I hate it when inspectors do that (it's a lot less now than it was years ago).


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

nolabama said:


> I cant see a cord and plug device anywhere near a gas pump being a good idea - code or no code.


I respect that statement, but it begs this question. How far is "anywhere near a gas pump"?

Seems the NEC determines it's 18" from the dispenser above 18" from the ground, 20' from the dispenser up to 18" high.

Seems like 18" is a magic number


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

I was at first quite confused when fuel dispensers 'went electronic.'

I had thought that everythig at the pump had to be explosion-proof. So there I was, looking at a pump that had a digital display, a built in light, a credit card reader, a keypad, and a receipt printer - none of which were 'explosion proof.' Try as I might, I couldn't see how that light could be 'intrinsically safe' either.

Then I learned that the 'hazardous location' is considered, by UL, to stop 18" above the base of the pump. Everything above is just an 'ordinary' location.

I learned "hazardous locations" in the oil/chemical refining business. Since then, life has been one long journey, learning just how greatly my training exceeded the actual code requirements. It seems that the actual 'zone' is a lot smaller, and the rules far less restrictive, than I ever imagined.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

Amish Electrician said:


> I was at first quite confused when fuel dispensers 'went electronic.'
> 
> I had thought that everythig at the pump had to be explosion-proof. So there I was, looking at a pump that had a digital display, a built in light, a credit card reader, a keypad, and a receipt printer - none of which were 'explosion proof.' Try as I might, I couldn't see how that light could be 'intrinsically safe' either.
> 
> ...


for commercial garages and maybe gas stations -yes; for lng and gas plants and substations (and a whole bunch of other stuff) - no


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## Amish Electrician (Jan 2, 2010)

Oddly enough, a few summers back I helped build a CNG fueling facility for a local fleet operator. We're talking major gas lines and compressors here - not just dispensers.

The ETL-listed control panel was plain-jane NEMA-4. No arcing contacts (solid state relays), no need for hazardous-location enclosures. Only the lights were so rated. (Had there been any receptacles, they would have had to be rated as well).

I know, I was amazed. Yes, I did question it. Looking at a sheet metal cabinet, surrounded by enclosures that have walls at least an inch thick, one has to wonder ....


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Amish Electrician said:


> Oddly enough, a few summers back I helped build a CNG fueling facility for a local fleet operator. We're talking major gas lines and compressors here - not just dispensers.
> 
> The ETL-listed control panel was plain-jane NEMA-4. No arcing contacts (solid state relays), no need for hazardous-location enclosures. Only the lights were so rated. (Had there been any receptacles, they would have had to be rated as well).
> 
> I know, I was amazed. Yes, I did question it. Looking at a sheet metal cabinet, surrounded by enclosures that have walls at least an inch thick, one has to wonder ....


I have installed NEMA 4's in what I would consider hazardous locations as well. NEC is NEC so whatcha gonna do? Install the cheapest code compliant device you can


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

nolabama said:


> NEC is NEC so whatcha gonna do? Install the cheapest code compliant device you can


Well, you can always refuse to do it, but..............................














Someone else will get the job. (I guess that was your point).


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## Sco (Jan 27, 2010)

AEC Sparky is this by chance a Racetrac service station? I have done the exact thing you are talking about on literally hundreds of gasoline dispensers. I have never used an explosion proof box. I have always used bell boxes and in certain instances where there were clearance issues have used handy boxes. The fittings that come out of the top of the dispenser are usually explosion proof back to back close 90's that make a swing joint. These fittings are potted from the factory to prevent fumes from escaping from the dispenser. The kicker about this installation is the top of the dispenser is out of the class 1 div 1 and div 2 areas. See figure 514.3 in the code book.


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