# IBEW Looking at lowering the cost of labor



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Cutting costs has always been a business survival tactic. 

Around here, they're using the retirement fund to invest in real estate projects that they, in turn, provide the electrical wiring for. Novel approach. They more or less become "the bank" for the project, which guarantees the use of IBEW labor.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The CE/CW classification in our local simply took over the old "B" program.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

It's not a horrible idea.

I see it as an investment into the future of the IBEW.

Times are tough, and everyone is making sacrifices.

I'm sure their membership is down, I'm sure the lack of work has a lot to do with it. They don't have the market cornered any longer, the market has _them_ cornered and it sounds like they're finally realizing it.

Increase membership, get more jobs, and the pay and benefits will follow as the market turns.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> It's not a horrible idea.
> 
> I see it as an investment into the future of the IBEW.
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this: What if you, as a trained and skilled electrician, had less work because it was going to this new classification of less trained people? Would you be happy? Would you chance that happening? Would you vote to have those people come into your group and possibly do that to you?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Let me ask you this: What if you, as a trained and skilled electrician, had less work because it was going to this new classification of less trained people? Would you be happy? Would you chance that happening? Would you vote to have those people come into your group and possibly do that to you?


The answer to that would depend on your personal sense of entitlement (a swear word where I come from). You think the world owes you all the electrical work in your area, or should the work go to the most competitive and efficient provider of that work?

Would you blindly turn down the CE/CW program if it means "giving away" all the work to the lower cost providers?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> The answer to that would depend on your personal sense of entitlement (a swear word where I come from). You think the world owes you all the electrical work in your area, or should the work go to the most competitive and efficient provider of that work?


I'm not talking about entitlement, I am asking Frasbee if he was part of a group would he be happy with bringing other people into that group that might get work before him?

FWIW< I know that the world doesn't owe me anything and I'm not sure what I said that makes you think that way.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I'm not talking about entitlement, I am asking Frasbee if he was part of a group would he be happy with bringing other people into that group that might get work before him?
> 
> FWIW< I know that the world doesn't owe me anything and I'm not sure what I said that makes you think that way.


Of course he wouldn't, if he bought into the idea that belonging to that group somehow entitled him to all the work at a certain wage. 

One brainiac in that article says, "... If the contractors can get it done for less money, that’s what they are going to do.” Yeah, no sh!t, Sherlock. Welcome to a free market economy. Welcome to the real world.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Let me ask you this: What if you, as a trained and skilled electrician, had less work because it was going to this new classification of less trained people? Would you be happy? Would you chance that happening? Would you vote to have those people come into your group and possibly do that to you?


Of course not.

But I'm not them, so I say, reform away.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Of course he wouldn't, if he bought into the idea that belonging to that group somehow entitled him to all the work at a certain wage.


 I don't see what the second part of your sentence has to do with my question. 

No one said anything about entitlement to work, I am discussing admission to a union.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> Of course not.


I appreciate the honesty. At least you could understand why some members of the group would be against it.


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## fondini (Dec 22, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Cutting costs has always been a business survival tactic.
> 
> Around here, they're using the retirement fund to invest in real estate projects that they, in turn, provide the electrical wiring for. Novel approach. They more or less become "the bank" for the project, which guarantees the use of IBEW labor.


 They did that here in Rossford Ohio with an arenea project and it went belly up and almost took the carpenters union with it.:no:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I don't see what the second part of your sentence has to do with my question.
> 
> No one said anything about entitlement to work, I am discussing admission to a union.


I offer to you, very simply, that it is the sense of entitlement that causes people to be upset at the prospect of lower cost CE/CW workers.


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

HackWork said:


> I appreciate the honesty. At least you could understand why some members of the group would be against it.


You don't need to play devil's advocate, I'm very aware of the controversy.

I'm on the outside looking in, it's always easier to pass judgment or critique when it doesn't affect you. The fact there can be such a disparity in pay and benefits between union and non-union only goes to show that the IBEW in some areas is simply unsustainable.

Pay non-union has stayed pretty much the same as far as I'm concerned. I'm getting paid the same up here non-union, as I was down in New Orleans, non-union. 

Local 130's scale was about 22-25 per hour for a journeyman (with benefits of course), and non-union journeymen went for 18-22 an hour. 

Scale here in Philly is around 48 or something for a journeyman, but from what I've seen, non union "journeyman" (since there is no state classification), is about the same as it was in New Orleans, 18-25, give or take.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I offer to you, very simply, that it is the sense of entitlement that causes people to be upset at the prospect of lower cost CE/CW workers.


I disagree completely. I don't see how entitlement comes into play.

Members get upset when you let anyone new in, whether it be too many apprentices, organized guys, or CE/CW. It floods the list and makes the wait even longer. The CE/CW goes a step further and cuts in front of them.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Frasbee said:


> You don't need to play devil's advocate, I'm very aware of the controversy.
> 
> I'm on the outside looking in, it's always easier to pass judgment or critique when it doesn't affect you. The fact there can be such a disparity in pay and benefits between union and non-union only goes to show that the IBEW in some areas is simply unsustainable.
> 
> ...


Isn't the cost of living in Philly and most of PA much higher than LA?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I disagree completely. I don't see how entitlement comes into play.


Why else would you be upset about a batch of lower cost workers, if you didn't feel that you were entitled to that work yourself? Not only that, but entitled to do it for a certain wage?


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Isn't the cost of living in Philly and most of PA much higher than LA?


Frasbee is Amish, and drives his buggy to the SEPTA bus stop. Packs his lunch in a little hand woven basket.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Why else would you be upset about a batch of lower cost workers, if you didn't feel that you were entitled to that work yourself? Not only that, but entitled to do it for a certain wage?


Why would they be upset when they organize too many men?


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Isn't the cost of living in Philly and most of PA much higher than LA?


Not really, honestly.

Consider Southern Louisiana has ridiculous high insurance rates in every aspect. It has *the *highest car insurance rates in the country. New Orleans has been cited as having the tax equivalence of a city the size of Philadelphia, even though it's 1/3 the size. Most of those taxes ends up in some congressman's freezer, anyway. 

Rent is about the same, if not cheaper.

But also, Louisiana is a right-to-work state, while Pennsylvania is not.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Why would they be upset when they organize too many men?


Because they're crybabies who think they are entitled to first dibs on every call. In fact, the union is a perfect arrangement for men who model a large part of their personal character around being a crybaby.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Because they're crybabies who think they are entitled to first dibs on every call. In fact, the union is a perfect arrangement for men who model a large part of their personal character around being a crybaby.


:sleep1:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> Frasbee is Amish, and drives his buggy to the SEPTA bus stop. Packs his lunch in a little hand woven basket.


If I could be half the craftsman those amish carpenters are...

I was on a job with them not too long ago. Their work is amazing, and I heard they're blazing fast.

If only there were Amish electricians. :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Who is the crybaby now you little girl :whistling2:


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

Frasbee said:


> If I could be half the craftsman those amish carpenters are...
> 
> I was on a job with them not too long ago. Their work is amazing, and I heard they're blazing fast.
> 
> If only there were Amish electricians. :laughing:


There are, sort of. Mennonite. Jacksonburg Farmer has a few working for him.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

It's funny, you leave a post suggesting someone blows up a church with a pipe bomb but you delete posts that hurt your delicate sensibilities. Then you have the audacity to call other people crybabies? :thumbup:


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## Frasbee (Apr 7, 2008)

MDShunk said:


> There are, sort of. Mennonite. Jacksonburg Farmer has a few working for him.


They've got to be a contractor's wet dream.

I was reading about Amish communities. It sounds like what the Tea Partiers want to get back to, but may not realize it.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> It's funny, you leave a post suggesting someone blows up a church with a pipe bomb but you delete posts that hurt your delicate sensibilities. Then you have the audacity to call other people crybabies? :thumbup:


I have no idea what you're talking about, but best of luck on your future endeavors. :blink:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about, but best of luck on your future endeavors. :blink:


My future endeavors involve sleeping :yawn:


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

WOW - The IBEW is going to employee people with less training ? 
Huummmm sounds kinda like they're using the same approach as the , dare I say it .................. NON-UNION employers !!?? :whistling2:

I find this quite interesting too.

I was having a conversation with a electrical foreman out of local 26 the other day, He was telling me that local 26 is planning on raising the rates for their " A" card journeymen. The increase will put them at around 100K a year ?? Anyone hear anything about this ?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> My future endeavors involve sleeping :yawn:


No pipe bomb attacks? 



:laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> No pipe bomb attacks?
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing:


No, but I will be crying all day tomorrow at work since that's what I model my personal character around. 

Huh? :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> I was having a conversation with a electrical foreman out of local 26 the other day, He was telling me that local 26 is planning on raising the rates for their " A" card journeymen. The increase will put them at around 100K a year ?? Anyone hear anything about this ?


I can't see a raise for a while. We have put all our contracted raises into our pension. After the contract is up we are probably going to freeze for a while.

$100K/year is $50/hr. What are the wages in local 26 now?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> No, but I will be crying all day tomorrow at work since that's what I model my personal character around.
> 
> Huh? :thumbup:


Marc hurt your feelings huh?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Marc hurt your feelings huh?


A bit.



I don't know why he's gotta do that.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HackWork said:


> A bit.
> 
> 
> 
> *****:whistling2::laughing:


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> A bit.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why he's gotta do that.


Even Mods got to throw some hate every once and a while. :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

mcclary's electrical said:


> HackWork said:
> 
> 
> > A bit.
> ...


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> Frasbee is Amish, and drives his buggy to the SEPTA bus stop. Packs his lunch in a little hand woven basket.


In my "OP" the article talks about lowering the standards for Electrical workers in general by not giving these worker a path to becoming licensed journeyman, and flooding the trade with these low cost workers will lower the labor cost for all Electricians. And will in time cut the amount that Electrical contractors can charge.
I am a non union Electrical contractor and i see this as bad because if the IBEW floods the market with unskilled workers there will no reason to stay in business .We non union Electrical contractors are charging between $60 and $110 per hour.I could not afford the $67 ph the guys get in chicago .The unions must cut these wages down to somthig alott more resonable.But not by flooding the trade with uskilled workers.
In massachusetts the rule is one journeyman one aprentice and the aprentice must be in school.
The union Electricians in chicago have priced themselves out and if they do not voluntarily cut their own wages down normal then they will be rememberd as the ones that destroyed our trade and that goes mass union guys as well.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> In my "OP" the article talks about lowering the standards for Electrical workers in general by not giving these worker a path to becoming licensed journeyman, and flooding the trade with these low cost workers will lower the labor cost for all Electricians. And will in time cut the amount that Electrical contractors can charge.
> I am a non union Electrical contractor and i see this as bad because if the IBEW floods the market with unskilled workers there will no reason to stay in business .We non union Electrical contractors are charging between $60 and $110 per hour.I could not afford the $67 ph the guys get in chicago .The unions must cut these wages down to somthig alott more resonable.But not by flooding the trade with uskilled workers.
> In massachusetts the rule is one journeyman one aprentice and the aprentice must be in school.
> The union Electricians in chicago have priced themselves out and if they do not voluntarily cut their own wages down normal then they will be rememberd as the ones that destroyed our trade and that goes mass union guys as well.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


It's a free country.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

What about all the other trades? In my area, pipe fitters, sprinkler fitters, even tile setters make a high wage in the envelope. Carpenters make less in the enevelope, but their package is $67/hr, ours is $73 so they aren't far off.

Everyone always blames the electricians.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> It's a free country.


Yes it , But do you think that the standards for Electricians should be cut out?


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## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes it , But do you think that the standards for Electricians should be cut out?


I think that we should be paid what the market determines, if that is not enough for us we need to find another way to earn money.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes it , But do you think that the standards for Electricians should be cut out?


"Standards" for electricians do not exist in at least as many places as they do exist. I don't happen to be a supporter of such standards. Let the market dictate the standards.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes it , But do you think that the standards for Electricians should be cut out?


What standard is there for electricians?

You either make your own standards or you get with your friends and make them together.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What standard is there for electricians?
> 
> You either make your own standards or you get with your friends and make them together.


Standards are those things parking lot lights are mounted on.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> What about all the other trades? In my area, pipe fitters, sprinkler fitters, even tile setters make a high wage in the envelope. Carpenters make less in the enevelope, but their package is $67/hr, ours is $73 so they aren't far off.
> 
> Everyone always blames the electricians.


 the wages you metion is the root of this problem and if the IBEW follows through with their plan we will all be making minimum wage.
and all the trades will be brought down with this.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Standards are those things parking lot lights are mounted on.


Standards are what any chick who will get with me must not have.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> the wages you metion is the root of this problem and if the IBEW follows through with their plan we will all be making minimum wage.


The sky is falling, huh?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Standards are what any chick who will get with me must not have.


Ya know you just put your self down right? :laughing:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Ya know you just put your self down right? :laughing:


I figured Marc needed some help.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> "Standards" for electricians do not exist in at least as many places as they do exist. I don't happen to be a supporter of such standards. Let the market dictate the standards.


 so you beleive tha there should be no NEC , no license, just a plain old free for all?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> the wages you metion is the root of this problem and if the IBEW follows through with their plan we will all be making minimum wage.
> and all the trades will be brought down with this.


Doubt it, Chicken Little.



> The sky is falling, huh?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I figured Marc needed some help.


:lol::lol:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I think that we should be paid what the market determines, if that is not enough for us we need to find another way to earn money.


 I agree but your a mass guy would you want the state to dump the licenses that we worked so hard for and just have a total free for all?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> What standard is there for electricians?
> 
> You either make your own standards or you get with your friends and make them together.


Four year apprentceship and jouneyman license then a master electrician license .the NFPA 70 NFPA 70E


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Doubt it, Chicken Little.


 Looks like you did not read the article..http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Looks like you did not read the article..http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


No I read it. Doesn't really effect me anyway. CE's and CW's won't be taking the work I do anyway so...


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Four year apprentceship and jouneyman license then a master electrician license .the NFPA 70 NFPA 70E


Oh, I thought we were talking about wages 

BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Oh, I thought we were talking about wages
> 
> BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.


 Why not are you able to get fire insurence for your house?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> No I read it. Doesn't really effect me anyway. CE's and CW's won't be taking the work I do anyway so...


 What type of work are you doing?


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Why not are you able to get fire insurence for your house?


What are you talking about?

Seriously, why do you go off on such tangents?


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> What type of work are you doing?


Utility service, controls, SCADA, O&M, instrumentation, and I dabble in/oversee support trades on some jobs. I don't see CEs/CWs being able to step on to most any utility site in AZ and start working like we do.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> I agree but your a mass guy would you want the state to dump the licenses that we worked so hard for and just have a total free for all?


In a state with licensing and a required apprenticeship, there will only be CE's, and no CW's. The CE is a mechanic, and the CW is a helper.

I can't see how this affects you, because the CE wage is on par with the non-union wage, plus bennies. The package is still one notch above what non-union contractors offer with their crap-hole HealthNet.

The way it affects you is, it tempts your manpower to jump ship for the chance of getting on steady and possibly moving up the ladder working for an ibew contractor.

There's tons of reh-tard electricians out there, if all a non-union contractor can hire off the streets is reh-tards who make mistakes, well, I guess the ibew contractors win. :thumbup:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Jlarson said:


> I don't see CEs/CWs being able to step on to most any utility site in AZ and start working like we do.


AZ journeymen make what?? 8 bucks an hour? 

I've heard horror stories.


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> AZ journeymen make what?? 8 bucks an hour?
> 
> I've heard horror stories.


Maybe multiply that # by 8. :thumbup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Maybe multiply that # by 8. :thumbup:


Really? I thought you said you made $12/hr yesterday?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Oh, I thought we were talking about wages
> 
> BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.





HackWork said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Seriously, why do you go off on such tangents?


you said. BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.

and answered .with can you get fire insurence for your house


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> you said. BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.
> 
> and answered .with can you get fire insurence for your house


What does a state's electrical licensing have to do with getting homeowners insurance???????????????????????


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Really? I thought you said you made $12/hr yesterday?


Lol, I was just kidding 'bout that.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Lol, I was just kidding 'bout that.


So you make $64/hr in AZ? Can I come there and make that or do I have to be smart and actually earn it??


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## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> So you make $64/hr in AZ? Can I come there and make that or do I have to be smart and actually earn it??


You need actual skills sorry. :laughing: Actually it's just a little under 60 after all the stuff comes out but still... We also do water waste water operations too, licenses with the DEQ all the fun stuff too. Ex. I get to pull a pump Saturday, 10 hour job at a station we operate. :thumbup:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> WOW - The IBEW is going to employee people with less training ?
> Huummmm sounds kinda like they're using the same approach as the , dare I say it .................. NON-UNION employers !!?? :whistling2:
> 
> I find this quite interesting too.
> ...


It will be two years before a new contract, seems like a bad time to go for that big of a raise. But I'll know more tomorrow.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> WOW -



Where have you been?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> In my "OP" the article talks about lowering the standards for Electrical workers in general by not giving these worker a path to becoming licensed journeyman, and flooding the trade with these low cost workers will lower the labor cost for all Electricians.
> sive/[/url]


How are they untrained? They will receive the number one most important, schooling any electrician get OJT.

Some of the excellent apprentices I see from school do every bit as well as some of the other apprentices. Attitude, performance, a better attitude than I am UNION I AM BETTER and OJT.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I figured Marc needed some help.


Just when I think I MIGHT have you 1/2 figured out, you pull the rug out from beneath me.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> In a state with licensing and a required apprenticeship, there will only be CE's, and no CW's. The CE is a mechanic, and the CW is a helper.
> 
> I can't see how this affects you, because the CE wage is on par with the non-union wage, plus bennies. The package is still one notch above what non-union contractors offer with their crap-hole HealthNet.
> 
> ...


If they havent won in 110years they will never win:thumbsup:


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Just when I think I MIGHT have you 1/2 figured out, you pull the rug out from beneath me.


Hmmmmm, I'm not sure how to read that.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> How are they untrained? They will receive the number one most important, schooling any electrician get OJT.
> 
> Some of the excellent apprentices I see from school do every bit as well as some of the other apprentices. Attitude, performance, a better attitude than I am UNION I AM BETTER and OJT.


 read the article..BTW, we don't have any of those licenses in our state.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> Cutting costs has always been a business survival tactic.
> 
> Around here, they're using the retirement fund to invest in real estate projects that they, in turn, provide the electrical wiring for. Novel approach. They more or less become "the bank" for the project, which guarantees the use of IBEW labor.


They did that here. We got screwed.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> Hmmmmm, I'm not sure how to read that.


Positively for the most part maybe 1/2 of it?


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> If they havent won in 110years they will never win:thumbsup:


Its hard to win when your best talent leaves and strikes out on their own.

The only reason to be non-union is to learn about the business and then leave to become your old employer's new competitor. Hows that working for you? How many people have you trained that now take away your business?

Its probably not near as many electricians (PM's to be honest,) as the union has trained, that left, and became serious non-union competition.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> What does a state's electrical licensing have to do with getting homeowners insurance???????????????????????


If you live in a state where it's an electrical free for all then i dont see how insurence companys woulD underight fire insurence in N/J


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> If you live in a state where it an electrical free for all then i dont see how insurence companys woul underight fire insurence in N/J


Can you please type this post over in English?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Positively for the most part maybe 1/2 of it?


I think you're messing with me now cause I'm more confused than before


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Can you please type this post over in English?


No thanks:laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> If you live in a state where it's an electrical free for all then i dont see how insurence companys woulD underight fire insurence in N/J


Just because a state doesn't have a JW or master's license doesn't mean they don't have an EC license.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> I think you're messing with me now cause I'm more confused than before


What else in new?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Jlarson said:


> Just because a state doesn't have a JW or master's license doesn't mean they don't have an EC license.


And even if the state doesn't have any license at all, that doesn't effect homeowner's insurance. I don't see WTF he is trying to say.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> And even if the state doesn't have any license at all, that doesn't effect homeowner's insurance. I don't see WTF he is trying to say.


IDK, maybe we need the badger to beat or at least berate some sense into his fellow Mass. electricians. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> And even if the state doesn't have any license at all, that doesn't effect homeowner's insurance. I don't see WTF he is trying to say.


 If a state does not have a license and supervision of electrical work then chances are there will be a lot more burn downs caused by unsupervised electrical work.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> IDK, maybe we need the badger to beat or at least berate some sense into his fellow Mass. electricians. :laughing::laughing:


Im just trying to stick up for all you guys in the trade


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> If a state does not have a license and supervision of electrical work then chances are there will be a lot more burn downs caused by unsupervised electrical work.


You can fantasize all you want, you are still talking bull$hit. There are plenty of states without electrical licensing.

And what does this tangent you went off on have to do with what we were discussing?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> You can fantasize all you want, you are still talking bull$hit. There are plenty of states without electrical licensing.
> 
> And what does this tangent you went off on have to do with what we were discussing?


 Mabey you should go back and read all the post so you can understand the conversation:thumbsup:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Mabey you should go back and read all the post so you can understand the conversation:thumbsup:


How could anyone understand your English??



HARRY304E said:


> If you live in a state where it's an electrical free for all then i dont see how insurence companys woulD underight fire insurence in N/J


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> How could anyone understand your English??


 Yes yours is much better:thumbup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> How could anyone understand your English??


So you must be a journalist not a journeyman:laughing:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> So you must be a journalist not a journeyman:laughing:


It took you over 5 minutes to come back with that one, huh?



HARRY304E said:


> If you live in a state where it's an electrical free for all then i dont see how insurence companys woulD underight fire insurence in N/J


underight?
N/J?
insurence TWICE?
companys?

Come on, I can't just overlook that :thumbup::laughing:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> It took you over 5 minutes to come back with that one, huh?
> 
> 
> underight?
> ...


You should see what his posts look like when I quote them in Fire Fox, they light up with red underline. :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> It took you over 5 minutes to come back with that one, huh?
> 
> 
> underight?
> ...


 Wow! you are the superior intellect:wacko:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Wow! you are the superior intellect:wacko:


Of course, I am a union member.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HackWork said:


> Of course, I am a union member.


:laughing::laughing: good one


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HackWork said:


> Of course, I am a union member.


Thats like him saying, "my blockbuster memberships makes me a movie."

what other memberships you have?

National Geographic Society?

Time-Life Book of the Month Club?

NRA?


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Harry, you're wasting your time, H.W. is a disease.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> NRA?


Hey now, let's not insult the NRA here


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Nor did I mean to insult blockbuster members or those like myself who subscribe to National Geographic.

Don't judge the ibew by H.W's claim of association.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

HackWork said:


> Of course, I am a union member.


Thats your problem why don't leave the union and start your own business you will enjoy unlimited income:thumbup:


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Nor did I mean to insult blockbuster members or those like myself who subscribe to National Geographic.
> 
> Don't judge the ibew by H.W's claim of association.


 :thumbup: I won't don't worry there are so many other reasons. :laughing:


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> If a state does not have a license and supervision of electrical work then chances are there will be a lot more burn downs caused by unsupervised electrical work.


You might think, but the data shows that this is not only untrue, but just the opposite in some cases. 

This "free for all" you speak about some of us call "civil liberties".


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

MDShunk said:


> You might think, but the data shows that this is not only untrue, but just the opposite in some cases.
> 
> This "free for all" you speak about some of us call "civil liberties".


:thumbup::thumbup: No one should be shocked I feel this way too.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> You might think, but the data shows that this is not only untrue, but just the opposite in some cases.
> 
> This "free for all" you speak about some of us call "civil liberties".


In my state plenty of Electrical fires cause by careless Electrical wiring done by both licensed electricians and unlicensed people it is impossable to keep track of all the residential Electrical work that goes on in a state that has 6,500,000 people and only about 700 wiring inspectors,
Even in mass there is a free for all going on in a smaller scale.
If you think that Electrical work should be done by people that have no formal training of any type thats great for your state you guys are free to do it your way it's called "civil liberties" our freedom is most important to me .
I am an Electrical contractor in massachusetts non union and i will hire a licensed Electrician over a person that has no formal training at all.

My point is in my "OP" I wanted to get the word out that the IBEW is willing to under cut all of us so they can flood the trade with people that will vote for their socialist agenda and that will Revoke our "Civil liberties"


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> In my state plenty of Electrical fires cause by careless Electrical wiring done by both licensed electricians and unlicensed people it is impossable to keep track of all the residential Electrical work that goes on in a state that has 6,500,000 people and only about 700 wiring inspectors,
> Even in mass there is a free for all going on in a smaller scale.
> If you think that Electrical work should be done by people that have no formal training of any type thats great for your state you guys are free to do it your way it's called "civil liberties" our freedom is most important to me .
> I am an Electrical contractor in massachusetts non union and i will hire a licensed Electrician over a person that has no formal training at all.
> ...


I'm sure you've got some important point in there someplace, but... dude, you're really hard to follow.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> In my state plenty of Electrical fires cause by careless Electrical wiring done by both licensed electricians and unlicensed people it is impossable to keep track of all the residential Electrical work that goes on in a state that has 6,500,000 people and only about 700 wiring inspectors,
> Even in mass there is a free for all going on in a smaller scale.
> If you think that Electrical work should be done by people that have no formal training of any type thats great for your state you guys are free to do it your way it's called "civil liberties" our freedom is most important to me .
> I am an Electrical contractor in massachusetts non union and i will hire a licensed Electrician over a person that has no formal training at all.
> ...


A lack of a piece of government paper does not mean that a person is less of an electrician. A license just says they can take a test well.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> I'm sure you've got some important point in there someplace, but... dude, you're really hard to follow.


 my point is do you want the IBEW to undercut your way of making a living by flooding the trade with uqaulifed people. you are an Electrician right?
Exuse my spelling i know it stinks


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> A lack of a piece of government paper does not mean that a person is less of an electrician. A license just says they can take a test well.


 that statement is right out of the liberal play book


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> that statement is right out of the liberal play book


Too bad I burned my copy of that play book a long, long, long time ago. I just don't like being told what I can and can't do by others.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> Too bad I burned my copy of that play book a long, long, long time ago. I just don't like being told what I can and can't do by others.


 I just don't like being told what I can and can't
do by others
I agree


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

JLARSON
whats up with the outragest license fee's in arizona?http://www.azroc.gov/


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> JLARSON
> whats up with the outrageist license fee's in arizona?http://www.azroc.gov/


I was looking at that last night. I don't really care, it will be worth it not to be working for someone else soon.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Jlarson said:


> I was looking at that last night. I don't really care, it will be worth it not to be working for someone else soon.


 :thumbup:Good for you if your going to start your own business I wish you the best of luck and gods speed:thumbup:then you will know what it is like to be truly free:thumbsup:


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> Yes it , But do you think that the standards for Electricians should be cut out?





Bob Badger said:


> I think that we should be paid what the market determines, if that is not enough for us we need to find another way to earn money.





HARRY304E said:


> I agree but your a mass guy would you want the state to dump the licenses that we worked so hard for and just have a total free for all?


I thought we were talking about wages?

As far as licenses here in MA what the union does, or does not do makes no difference. We will still have state mandated journeyman and masters licenses. 

Right now MA has too many licensed guys for the avaible work.

Some of these guys need to leave the trade or the pay rate will continue to fall for the non-union and the union folks will sit on the bench indefinitely waiting to for some idiot to pay their current contract rates.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> I thought we were talking about wages?
> 
> As far as licenses here in MA what the union does, or does not do makes no difference. We will still have state mandated journeyman and masters licenses.
> 
> ...


 That is the point of my "OP"The union wants to flood the trade with unquilfied workers do you want the IBEW to do that,, no i don't think you do.


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> That is the point of my "OP"The union wants to flood the trade with unquilfied workers do you want the IBEW to do that,, no i don't think you do.


The union cannot change the licensing requirements. They can only lower the bar to join their club.


----------



## Jlarson (Jun 28, 2009)

Bob Badger said:


> The union cannot change the licensing requirements. They can only lower the bar to join their club.


Why would they want to join our club. Rats get sh1t done, bring whatever tools are needed, work...

:laughing:


----------



## mikeh32 (Feb 16, 2009)

I heard about this awhile ago. This not only effects a cards, but c cards as well. its also up to the local, and since i work on the vdv national, i dont care.

the c cards will also be going to a wirepulling classification too. basically all they do is pull wire. no terminating, no trimming, nothing else but pulling... which is basically 75% of what we do anyway....

I was told that it will be up to the local on whether or not they adapt to the classes, but not sure. I will ask 2morrow when im there.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> The union cannot change the licensing requirements. They can only lower the bar to join their club.


In this state all the union has to do is snap their fingers ,and no more license


----------



## Bob Badger (Apr 19, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> In this state all the union has to do is snap their fingers ,and no more license


That is a boat load of crap.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Bob Badger said:


> That is a boat load of crap.


 Lets hope so


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> What standard is there for electricians?
> 
> You either make your own standards or you get with your friends and make them together.


 
If there are any standards they are very low after all you are an electrician.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> my point is do you want the IBEW to undercut your way of making a living by flooding the trade with unqualified people. you are an Electrician right?
> Excuse my spelling i know it stinks


 As for spelling google has a tool bar with a spell checker and it saves me in some cases, my spelling typing and grammar all STINK.

Harry here is where you are wrong.

90% of our work is basic electricity and from what I posted earlier.

FROM MY POST



> How are they untrained? They will receive the number one most important, schooling any electrician get OJT.
> 
> Some of the excellent apprentices I see from school do every bit as well as some of the other apprentices. Attitude, performance, a better attitude than I am UNION I AM BETTER and OJT.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> I was having a conversation with a electrical foreman out of local 26 the other day, He was telling me that local 26 is planning on raising the rates for their " A" card journeymen. The increase will put them at around 100K a year ?? Anyone hear anything about this ?


 
Local 26 Scale 44.04 loaded rate 54.24
Raise due in May 2011 2.20 =scale 46.24 loaded rate 56.44

Though I would think if they were wise they MIGHT reconsider implementing that raise with this economy. There is a no inflation, prices are holding steady, work is slow, men are on the bench, and it is a tough market for bidding.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> My point is in my "OP" I wanted to get the word out that the IBEW is willing to under cut all of us so they can flood the trade with people that will vote for their socialist agenda and that will Revoke our "Civil liberties"


HUH?! That's a far reach. Even if all electricians in America voted in a block, its not enough to change business as usual.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> That is the point of my "OP"The union wants to flood the trade with unquilfied workers do you want the IBEW to do that,


Unqualified how??

You are DENSE.


----------



## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

brian john said:


> Where have you been?


Been busier then a one armed paper hanger.
I've been around- mainly lurking, but now things in my life have calmed down I will be around more.

Thanks for the info on local 26. I only get IBEW information from others as I can not belong to the IBEW -( Conflict of interest )

I agree it would be insane to go with that increase at this time.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> If there are any standards they are very low after all you are an electrician.


I thought you said yesterday that you changed your mind about me?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

brian john said:


> Local 26 Scale 44.04 loaded rate 54.24
> Raise due in May 2011 2.20 =scale 46.24 loaded rate 56.44


What is "loaded rate"?

That can't be their package...??


----------



## gold (Feb 15, 2008)

I think the I/O should stick to its guns, scrap the CE/CW program and mandate a 20% raise acrossed the board. That way I can take MORE of there work.

I'm getting way too much satisfaction knowing the guys that were breaking my stones when I was a CE have been on the bench for almost 2 years.

FU*K EM


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

gold said:


> I think the I/O should stick to its guns, scrap the CE/CW program


The IO is the main thing pushing the CE/CW because they want more dues money coming in.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

gold said:


> I'm getting way too much satisfaction knowing the guys that were breaking my stones when I was a CE have been on the bench for almost 2 years.


:laughing: You learn something new about the folks on here everyday!


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HackWork said:


> I thought you said yesterday that you changed your mind about me?


Hey I am an electrician, also...


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Unqualified how??
> 
> You are DENSE.


 :laughing:yes very DENSE ,but i'm not as dumb as i look:laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> Unqualified how??
> 
> You are DENSE.


 :thumbup:I run my own business how about you?


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> :thumbup:I run my own business how about you?


I had an oldman with a business, believe me, that was enough to teach me not to go into business.

Hope that CE program works out for you! :laughing:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I had an oldman with a business, believe me, that was enough to teach me not to go into business.
> 
> Hope that CE program works out for you! :laughing:


 the CE program is designed to undercut our trade with unqualified workers read the article.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Miller...Read and undestand the artcle .http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


----------



## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> the CE program is designed to undercut our trade with unqualified workers read the article.


If it is legal for them to ply the trade, I'm not sure what makes them unqualified. 

Why do you want so many barriers to entry? You have something against a guy earning a living?


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> the CE program is designed to undercut our trade with unqualified workers read the article.


The same workers you need to hire to man your jobs.

You don't show any ire, but I can read between the lines.

EDIT: I read it a second time, and didn't pickup anything new.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

MDShunk said:


> If it is legal for them to ply the trade, I'm not sure what makes them unqualified.
> 
> Why do you want so many barriers to entry? You have something against a guy earning a living?


 none at all.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Miller...Read and undestand the artcle .http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/


You have yet to comment on my post negating your assertion that these workers are unqualified.

How are they not qualified if they work 4 years in the trade, I NEVER served an apprenticeship and I think I hold my own against most electricians.

I contend most electricians out there know what they need to know to get by, forget 80-90% of what they learned in their apprenticeship as they NEVER USE IT. Do nothing to further themselves in the trade. I talk to 100's and 100's of electricians every year and ask most of them about Mike Holt's site few to none know anything about it, yet they have internet. They care so little about their trade they cannot not be bother to google electricity. And a majority of ones that register on MH's site are one time users asking a question about ground up, ground down or where in the NEC does it mandate Black, Red, Blue.

These guys will be no better or no worse that the average IBEW (or open shop) dolt, learn do do this or learn to do that, go home and pop a cold one, get up and repeat.

Beside there are no jobs out there for most of them at this time, unless they replace some of the over priced slackers.


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> The same workers you need to hire to man your jobs.
> 
> You don't show any ire, but I can read between the lines.
> 
> EDIT: I read it a second time, and didn't pickup anything new.


 thats good .
I only hire licensed journeymen with the exeption of two Aprentice Electricians who are in school. I do not need unquilfied workers to make a profit.
Maybe you should read it again and pay close attetion to the part where they state those "CE's" Will not get the same training that you did,,, But Hey your the Union guy what the hek do i know:thumbsup:


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> You have yet to comment on my post negating your assertion that these workers are unqualified.
> 
> How are they not qualified if they work 4 years in the trade, I NEVER served an apprenticeship and I think I hold my own against most electricians.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your post, the fact is the members of the IBEW who are licensed journeymen in chicago have priced them selves out of business at $67 per hour they will be on the bench for a long time to come.
The IBEW should cut their pay down to todays market prices.
But instead of doing that they want to declassify Electrical work from skilled labor to unskilled .If you read the article you will see they will be used as just labor and not get the training for the aprenticship so they can become journeymen Electricians,,Thus Flooding the trade with unquilfied workers,,,We allready have to many of them as it is.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> I agree with most of your post, the fact is the members of the IBEW who are licensed journeymen in chicago have priced them selves out of business at $67 per hour they will be on the bench for a long time to come.
> The IBEW should cut their pay down to todays market prices.
> But instead of doing that they want to declassify Electrical work from skilled labor to unskilled .If you read the article you will see they will be used as just labor and not get the training for the aprenticship so they can become journeymen Electricians,,Thus Flooding the trade with unquilfied workers,,,We allready have to many of them as it is.


And contractors will use them for full service men. In our local we have a residential classification. There is very little residential in our local so these men work as full service electricians.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> I only hire licensed journeymen with the exeption of two Aprentice Electricians who are in school. I do not need unquilfied workers to make a profit.


To be a CE here, a man has to have a license. To have a license, he has to complete the non-union apprenticeship, or have 16,000 verifiable hours under a master elec from out of state. 

So then how is a CE unqualified? 

CW's are unqualified, they are like a helper, but are not allowed in this state or your state. Whats the beef?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> To be a CE here, a man has to have a license. To have a license, he has to complete the non-union apprenticeship, or have 16,000 verifiable hours under a master elec from out of state.
> 
> So then how is a CE unqualified?
> 
> CW's are unqualified, they are like a helper, but are not allowed in this state or your state. Whats the beef?


 If you read the article you would know the what the beef is.


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I read that thing twice.

Considering the source, I'd say the writer is crying foul because the local is tapping the non-union labor pool at non-union rates to perform the work the non-union took away from the local. Theres nothing unqualified about it. 

Afraid the temp workers are going to quit showing up in droves now theres a new game in town? Don't get to worried yet, theres still way more electricians than there is work.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Considering the source, I'd say the writer is crying foul because the local is tapping the non-union labor pool at non-union rates to perform the work the non-union took away from the local.


So where is the benefit to the existing members (A Inside Wiremen) of the local? If the local is taking new people in to do all that work, what's in it for the union (other than the dues to the IO, of course)?


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I read that thing twice.
> 
> Considering the source, I'd say the writer is crying foul because the local is tapping the non-union labor pool at non-union rates to perform the work the non-union took away from the local. Theres nothing unqualified about it.
> 
> Afraid the temp workers are going to quit showing up in droves now theres a new game in town? Don't get to worried yet, theres still way more electricians than there is work.


Here's the story from another source, http://www.chicagounionnews.com/2010/10/as-electricians-union-creates-new-class.html


----------



## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Here's the story from another source, http://www.chicagounionnews.com/2010/10/as-electricians-union-creates-new-class.html


I see, you are worried about the union's composite manhour dropping.

That means a drop in the bid numbers, which translates into:
you will have lower margins, because there will be less money between what you charge and the big boys charge.

I checked RS Means in the back, the table which contains the non-union and union manhour cost in each geographical region. I noticed that typical non-union shops have a higher overhead per manhour. Is this what worries you? You are stuck competing with a lower composite manhour and the same high overhead?


----------



## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

Good point Miller. In my local we have a county that is mostly nonunion. Hard to get work there. The prevailing wage rate is half of what our locals rate is. There is a large Military base there and we use th CE/CW program to compete. Their rate is what the scale is.:whistling2:We are also using the CE/CW program on other jobs as well. Had a mechanical contractor that is nonunion ask me if our local building trades slashed our rates because they are having problems winning jobs.

Charlie


----------



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

miller_elex said:


> I see, you are worried about the union's composite manhour dropping.
> 
> That means a drop in the bid numbers, which translates into:
> you will have lower margins, because there will be less money between what you charge and the big boys charge.
> ...


 Im worried about the CE program bring down the whole trade.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Charlie K said:


> Good point Miller. In my local we have a county that is mostly nonunion. Hard to get work there. The prevailing wage rate is half of what our locals rate is. There is a large Military base there and we use th CE/CW program to compete. Their rate is what the scale is.:whistling2:We are also using the CE/CW program on other jobs as well. Had a mechanical contractor that is nonunion ask me if our local building trades slashed our rates because they are having problems winning jobs.
> 
> Charlie


The military idea makes no sense that should be Davis Bacon.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HARRY304E said:


> Im worried about the CE program bring down the whole trade.


Do not fret over it, there are other forces at work that will beat any dent this program makes. 

And as I have said several times how are these guys any less an electrician that you or I are, if they work at the trade.

Does making them a CE take away brain cells, the majority of work completed by electricians can be completed by semi-skilled laborers with a good leader directing them,


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

brian john said:


> Do not fret over it, there are other forces at work that will beat any dent this program makes.
> 
> And as I have said several times how are these guys any less an electrician that you or I are, if they work at the trade.
> 
> Does making them a CE take away brain cells, the majority of work completed by electricians can be completed by semi-skilled laborers with a good leader directing them,


 lets hope so:thumbsup:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> Click this link and read this .http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epiphany-electrical-union-realizes-its-labor-may-be-too-expensive/. This is a very bad idea.


Hey Harry,


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> Hey Harry,


:laughing:

Oh boy this will be fun..:laughing:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

HARRY304E said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Oh boy this will be fun..:laughing:


I went looking for your intro, but I forgot about the older account.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks Wirenutting, this thread was an awesome read.

Miller called me a disease :laughing:

Gold bashed unions :thumbup:

Shunk was still Shunk :whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Wirenuting said:


> I went looking for your intro, but I forgot about the older account.


This was my first account here and my first thread ,when I started this thread I had only about 5 posts :laughing:

And was way out of practice in my poor writing skills..:laughing:


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## Turkey Steve (Jun 21, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Thanks Wirenutting, this thread was an awesome read.
> 
> Miller called me a disease :laughing:
> 
> ...


You are a disease ...:laughing:


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