# Should I?



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Look for the gfi outlet or gfi breaker that tripped. It might be in the bathroom, it might be in the garage, it might be in the basement someplace, it might be outside........


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Code... Ethics... A professional solves the problem and doesn't bandaid over it.

Put your boots on and get to work, killing the in-laws sounds fun, but your wife will be pissed.


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Oops, I didn't see the open neutral part. Backstabbery.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Mac hit the nail on the head.. Most likely a bad stabbed connection...

Joe, the problem is without finding the problem and fixing it, you are leaving the hazard in a hazardous condition. Until you find the problem, you shouldn't start re-feeding the circuit. Use proper troubleshooting methods and you'll likely find the issue before you know it.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

I already got rid of all the backstabbed connections. If I can identify the faulted cable, abandon it behind the wall, is it still considered a hazard?

I don’t believe I’m straying too far from my electrically related fields to be able to do this safely, to do it professionally yes, and I get that.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

This has been my experience....

When you have exhausted all ideas and finished your troubleshooting procedures, and determined that something is buried.... Open up the wall. Typically if someone buried one thing, they buried more.

Opening up the wall to locate the fault usually locates other problems or future problems. 

Do you own and know how to use a Fox & Hound or even a Toner? This will help you locate a hidden cable beneath the rock.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Switched said:


> This has been my experience....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I see your point, into the wall it is, no bandaids. No I’ve never used one but I’ve used a fault wizard on underground cables, I believe they are pretty similar. I may pick one up


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Joe Robert said:


> I already got rid of all the backstabbed connections. If I can identify the faulted cable, abandon it behind the wall, is it still considered a hazard?
> 
> I don’t believe I’m straying too far from my electrically related fields to be able to do this safely, to do it professionally yes, and I get that.


So, you pulled out all the devices and pig-tailed all the neutrals, and still no workie? Can you identify the circuits in the panel? Or, were they extended from existing? There shouldn't be more than one circuit, unless it's a huge basement. It's unlikely that a cable just "went bad" behind a wall, the problem is most likely in the panel or a device box, or a tripped GFI.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You need to double check and verify everything you have done up until this point before you open up the walls.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

joebanana said:


> So, you pulled out all the devices and pig-tailed all the neutrals, and still no workie? Can you identify the circuits in the panel? Or, were they extended from existing? There shouldn't be more than one circuit, unless it's a huge basement. It's unlikely that a cable just "went bad" behind a wall, the problem is most likely in the panel or a device box, or a tripped GFI.



Every light, switch, receptacle, smoke detector, all of it. There are a few new circuits in the panel for the finished basement, all labeled by room. But one outlet in the room in question was still hot when I opened it’s breaker, that led me to investigate everything that shared a wall with that room, and then some more. So I’ve confirmed that everything on that circuit is in that room.

Every receptacle is still hot, and when I tie the ground to the neutral at one of the affected receptacles, it all works.


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

You have to be missing something.... It happens...

With a loose neutral as you described, you should be able to pinpoint which circuits are affected. Turn off those circuits, and identify them at the panel. Then restart the troubleshooting process, divide & conquer... one by one... take it all apart... test everything....


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

Joe Robert said:


> Every light, switch, receptacle, smoke detector, all of it. There are a few new circuits in the panel for the finished basement, all labeled by room. But one outlet in the room in question was still hot when I opened it’s breaker, that led me to investigate everything that shared a wall with that room, and then some more. So I’ve confirmed that everything on that circuit is in that room.
> 
> Every receptacle is still hot, and when I tie the ground to the neutral at one of the affected receptacles, it all works.


That pretty much narrows it down, you got an open neuch somewhere. Start in the middle, and work back. Maybe an illusive j-box. What had changed when it first started?


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Switched said:


> You need to double check and verify everything you have done up until this point before you open up the walls.



I definitely will, believe me I’m in no rush. Plan is to open everything, get three long jumpers, and find a cable with continuity between the blacks and grounds but not the white.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Switched said:


> You have to be missing something.... It happens...
> 
> With a loose neutral as you described, you should be able to pinpoint which circuits are affected. Turn off those circuits, and identify them at the panel. Then restart the troubleshooting process, divide & conquer... one by one... take it all apart... test everything....




It’s possible I’m sure, and I will double check. It’s only the one circuit that’s affected, funny the panel is in that room as well.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Do you have a black suit?

Actually, I heard that wearing black to funerals is out of style these days, so I'm sure you're good to go.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Joe Robert said:


> Every receptacle is still hot, and when I tie the ground to the neutral at one of the affected receptacles, it all works.


Just to be clear, when you tie neutral to ground at ANY of the affected receptacles, ALL the affected receptacles work?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Joe Robert said:


> Every light, switch, receptacle, smoke detector, all of it. There are a few new circuits in the panel for the finished basement, all labeled by room.* But one outlet in the room in question was still hot when I opened it’s breaker*, that led me to investigate everything that shared a wall with that room, and then some more. So I’ve confirmed that everything on that circuit is in that room.
> 
> Every receptacle is still hot, and when I tie the ground to the neutral at one of the affected receptacles, it all works.


Was it a double pole breaker that you opened Joe?



~CS~


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Do you have a black suit?
> 
> Actually, I heard that wearing black to funerals is out of style these days, so I'm sure you're good to go.



My feelings won’t be hurt if you guys just say “stay away from it junior” and tell me why. The main reason I started this thread was to get reasons residential sparkles thought I shouldn’t do this.



splatz said:


> Just to be clear, when you tie neutral to ground at ANY of the affected receptacles, ALL the affected receptacles work?



You got it.


And single pole, Steve.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If it's all of 'em, it sounds like it's closer to the source Joe ~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Joe Robert said:


> My feelings won’t be hurt if you guys just say “stay away from it junior” and tell me why. The main reason I started this thread was to get reasons residential sparkles thought I shouldn’t do this.


Was my post not a good enough reason?


----------



## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

whatever you decide to do while circuit tracing, just makes sure there's no plug loads or any other devices plugged into the circuit before you go troubleshooting the neutral, you don't want to become the neutral, especially when live and there's a plug load on the line! 

On occasion you'll find there's Breakers in the panel that have a GFCI protection with an extra neutral coming out of the back of the breaker feeding all the outlets in the respective area so, there might not be a GFI resettable outlet, could be the breaker itself just sayin!

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Was my post not a good enough reason?



Like I said before I don’t think residential is so far from what I do that I can’t do it safely. I service/install three phase equipment daily, let alone my lineman training. BUT I do value the opinions of the pros here and if you say the gap is larger than I think or I said something that leads you to believe I may not be able to do it safely, point it out to me and I’ll leave this “job” alone.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

CFCPWN said:


> whatever you decide to do while circuit tracing, just makes sure there's no plug loads or any other devices plugged into the circuit before you go troubleshooting the neutral, you don't want to become the neutral, especially when live and there's a plug load on the line!
> 
> On occasion you'll find there's Breakers in the panel that have a GFCI protection with an extra neutral coming out of the back of the breaker feeding all the outlets in the respective area so, there might not be a GFI resettable outlet, could be the breaker itself just sayin!
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk




I always either kill it or use my 1kvs


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> If it's all of 'em, it sounds like it's closer to the source Joe ~CS~


That's what I was thinking, I'd check at the panel, verify that the neutral is floating at the receptacles, then inject tone at the receptacles and use the probe to see if I can trace the path back to the panel. 

If this finds a suspected break in the wall, I'd be injecting tone back at the panel and seeing if it gets close to the same place. If so I'd probably be opening up that wall.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

And Steve the room has the panel as well so it’s all close to the source ha

There’s no funny business like that gfi breaker in the box going on


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

I bet there is a buried j-box with the bad connection. Turn power off and trace every wire with an ohm meter, draw it out.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Joe Robert said:


> And Steve the room has the panel as well so it’s all close to the source ha
> 
> There’s no funny business like that gfi breaker in the box going on




well you can use a toner like Splatz sez, or you could string a noodle outta the face of the panel and fly it into a few close receptacles...

it's _just _a blown noodle Joe, you _can_ figure it out



~CS~


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

It sounds like an A-HA troubleshoot to me. When you find the problem you'll say A-HA. 

Start at the panel and undo every connection on the circuit and trace it with a method of your choice. I like taking everything apart because sometimes things look great but they aren't.

If the problem is at a connection I've looked at several times I swiftly apply my palm to my forehead.

Btw, what type of wire is it? NMB?


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

I thought the same, Steve.

And yes I’ll be sure to open everything, and yeah it’s nmb


----------



## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

Was it wired by a woman? Because if it was, and she wired it how she thinks about everything all the time, just give up. You will never find the problem. Chances are the problem was you all along.

That’s my helpful tidbit on the topic.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Because of the narrative that the outlets used to work, and my determination that the neutral is open, I think there’s only one open. But please elaborate when you say the problem was me


----------



## Arrow3030 (Mar 12, 2014)

I think he was making a joke about how it's hard to please some women and no matter what she'll blame you.

I could be wrong.

The way troubleshooting goes for me is it's either my first guess and I feel like a champ or it's the last and I feel like a chump. Don't let it effect you too much either way.

Read up on okhams razor if you're stumped and it's bugging you.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Yep I get the joke now haha

They live three hours away so I won’t be back there for a few weeks, I’ll read it anyway


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Post your findings then Joe

I'll wager you're maybe 1/2 hr into it , and bingo....

~CS~


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This lineman probably doesn't own a supco 500 so there is no hope..


----------



## Stickshaker (Jun 29, 2012)

Did you take the light fixture down and check there?


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Why would I need a megger?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

You probably _don't _Joe

In fact , many of us here hail from an _analog_ era where digital goodies did not exist

We learned to use our _ grey matter _and _experience_ assessing service calls

~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Joe Robert said:


> Why would I need a megger?


You don't. The same way as how you don't need to know what you are doing either.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> You probably _don't _Joe
> 
> In fact , many of us here hail from an _analog_ era where digital goodies did not exist
> 
> ...


There are analog meggers. Hell, the megger mentioned in this thread has dummy lights.

Someone with 30 years of experience knows this. You just wanted to sound fancy.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> You don't. The same way as how you don't need to know what you are doing either.




Would it make you feel better if I used gators and c crimps for all my connections? I asked you to give me a reason why you thought I wasn’t experienced enough to do this, even pmd you, no response. I’d be more than willing to accept any rational reason you would give me, but since you haven’t my only logical conclusion is that you have no reason. Level with me here man.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Do I really have to explain that an "HVAC tech" who is in lineman school is not an electrician and shouldn't be doing electrical work on his own? Do I have to explain that if you have to ask these basic questions, you clearly don't know what yo are doing? Do I have to explain that you should be trained to do this, and not do trial and error with electrical work when it is putting people's lives at risk?

Apparently I do have to explain that, which is another reason in itself why you shouldn't be doing this.

I'm off to a lineman forum to go ask a question about me working on high voltage lines myself this afternoon.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Joe Robert said:


> Every light, switch, receptacle, smoke detector, all of it. There are a few new circuits in the panel for the finished basement, all labeled by room. But one outlet in the room in question was still hot when I opened it’s breaker, that led me to investigate everything that shared a wall with that room, and then some more. So I’ve confirmed that everything on that circuit is in that room.
> 
> *Every receptacle is still hot, and when I tie the ground to the neutral at one of the affected receptacles, it all works.*


This just confirms you have lost the neutral somewhere. Tying the ground to the neutral is just using the intact ground as the neutral. But that pretty much points you to the panel or somewhere before it hits the 1st device. Picking any point and tying gnd to neutral should still leave some dead if the problem is at a receptacle.

Do any of the receptacles work? If so, take that one apart and you will most likely find the neutral is loose there.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

I do electrical work on my own all the time, the only difference here being my problem is behind a wall. My problems are never behind walls, they are where I can see them. Let me ask you this, if my problem is simply a buried j box with a loose neutral, do you think I am competent enough to twist a wire nut?

Now I will concede that I may have asked basic questions that pertain to residential electrical work, and I see how that could be a cause for concern to you. And this is the main reason I posted this, to see if residential electricians thought I should do this. But since I have mostly been getting advice on how to do this rather than to, I must conclude that most people here believe I am competent enough to do this safely, as do I. Not to disregard your opinion hack but it seems to be in the minority.

But like I said I respect the opinions of the pros here, so if anybody else feels this way speak up. Save me the hundred dollars on a toner.

I’d like to reiterate I respect your opinion as well, hackwork.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

A Little Short said:


> This just confirms you have lost the neutral somewhere. Tying the ground to the neutral is just using the intact ground as the neutral. But that pretty much points you to the panel or somewhere before it hits the 1st device. Picking any point and tying gnd to neutral should still leave some dead if the problem is at a receptacle.
> 
> Do any of the receptacles work? If so, take that one apart and you will most likely find the neutral is loose there.



The problem is not at the panel, I had continuity between the neutral bar and the neutral at the working receptacle.
There are 5 receptacles, one works. It wasn’t at ANY point I tied the ground and neutral, it was specifically an affected receptacle. I removed all backstabbed connections, and even removed all the outlets and tied everything together, I am positive the problem is not at an outlet.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

This will be much easier to trouble shoot with pics of the wife. If she is hot you can put a bit more work into it. 
In real life there are probably 3 buried J-boxes in that ceiling and if you have any pride you need to find them and expose them. anything else just leaves buried bad connections in the ceiling somewhere.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> This will be much easier to trouble shoot with pics of the wife. If she is hot you can put a bit more work into it.
> In real life there are probably 3 buried J-boxes in that ceiling and if you have any pride you need to find them and expose them. anything else just leaves buried bad connections in the ceiling somewhere.



If there’s one thing I’ve learned from all this it’s that I am a firm believer in acoustic ceilings. Pride is something I am in no short supply of.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Joe Robert said:


> I do electrical work on my own all the time, the only difference here being my problem is behind a wall. My problems are never behind walls, they are where I can see them. Let me ask you this, if my problem is simply a buried j box with a loose neutral, do you think I am competent enough to twist a wire nut?
> 
> Now I will concede that I may have asked basic questions that pertain to residential electrical work, and I see how that could be a cause for concern to you. And this is the main reason I posted this, to see if residential electricians thought I should do this. But since I have mostly been getting advice on how to do this rather than to, I must conclude that most people here believe I am competent enough to do this safely, as do I. Not to disregard your opinion hack but it seems to be in the minority.
> 
> ...


Your definitely not qualified, It's electricians work. Your HVAC
If your comfortable working on it ... go for it !

I think this should be on the DIY site, but that's just my opinion


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Joe Robert said:


> If there’s one thing I’ve learned from all this it’s that I am a firm believer in acoustic ceilings. Pride is something I am in no short supply of.


I am just saying some handyman did that wiring and you probably need to find and expose those buries j-boxes. Drywall is cheap but maybe you get lucky and locate them.


----------



## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

Joe Robert said:


> I always either kill it or use my 1kvs


Just for thought, did you check the upstream neutral bond strap in the main service disconnect that feeds the sub panel? 

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

emtnut said:


> Your definitely not qualified, It's electricians work. Your HVAC
> If your comfortable working on it ... go for it !
> 
> I think this should be on the DIY site, but that's just my opinion



That sounds like a “I believe you can do this safely” to me am I correct?



sbrn33 said:


> I am just saying some handyman did that wiring and you probably need to find and expose those buries j-boxes. Drywall is cheap but maybe you get lucky and locate them.



Right I was just mentioning how much more of a pain that is versus if it was a drop ceiling.



CFCPWN said:


> Just for thought, did you check the upstream neutral bond strap in the main service disconnect that feeds the sub panel?
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk



No sub, straight from meter to main disconnect which is in the main panel. But yes I looked at everything in that panel.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Can someone remind me again why a non-electrician is allowed to post here?


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

CFCPWN said:


> Just for thought, did you check the upstream neutral bond strap in the main service disconnect that feeds the sub panel?
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


In more than thirty years I have seen this go bad once. Why would you even mention this?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

MTW said:


> Can someone remind me again why a non-electrician is allowed to post here?


Because he does electrical work on his own all the time.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Joe Robert said:


> That sounds like a “I believe you can do this safely” to me am I correct?


I don't know you from a hole in the ground, so I have no idea if you know how to do this safely. You're asking a pretty basic question thou, so I'd assume 'probably not'


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

HackWork said:


> Because he does electrical work on his own all the time.


Well, he IS an HVAC guy thou :biggrin:


----------



## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

sbrn33 said:


> In more than thirty years I have seen this go bad once. Why would you even mention this?


It all depends on where the sub derived its neutral, left side, right side of the main service, tighten lugs, check to see if it was properly installed, you can't assume anything was done correctly, I.e. found subs with neutral bonded when should not be, start at the sourse, some main panels have been tampered with over the years as seen on many pictures posted in this forum. 

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

Alright that’s like four guys against it, I’ll leave this to someone qualified. Thank you all for your help and input!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

This may seem far fetched but do you have any rodent problems? I seen em eat clean thru the neutral side of an nm cable before they got themselves fried. 

The Supco 500 crack was not directed at you, just for the humorless dolts who posted rebuttals to it that followed. I've explained it's true best usage to them lots of times but they are all still penniless due to they didn't think of it first syndrome.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

A Little Short said:


> *Do any of the receptacles work? If so, take that one apart and you will most likely find the neutral is loose there.*





Joe Robert said:


> The problem is not at the panel, I had continuity between the neutral bar and the neutral at the working receptacle.
> *There are 5 receptacles, one works.* It wasn’t at ANY point I tied the ground and neutral, it was specifically an affected receptacle. I removed all backstabbed connections, and even removed all the outlets and tied everything together, I am positive the problem is not at an outlet.


Question asked- question answered.
Problem solved!
PM me and I will get your info of where to send the bill!:vs_cool:


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

They don’t have rodent problems that I know of. And it’s not the receptacle, I checked them all, even ohmed what I could physically see was good lol


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Why not have them call an electrician?

It would have been fixed in less than an hour and they wouldn't have to worry about burning in their sleep or their grandchildren being electrocuted.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Why not have them call an electrician?
> 
> It would have been fixed in less than an hour and they wouldn't have to worry about burning in their sleep or their grandchildren being electrocuted.



Father in law got laid off, money is tight for em, and I opened the breaker and told them to leave it that way until the issue is resolved


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Joe Robert said:


> Father in law got laid off, money is tight for em, and I opened the breaker and told them to leave it that way until the issue is resolved


Why not call an electrician? It is cheaper that way. The $125 or so that it will most likely cost is MUCH cheaper than dealing with a death or fire caused by having you do the work.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

That’s what I told him to do when I couldn’t find the problem, (he was under the impression it would cost a lot more than 125, as was I) he said that’d have to wait until he found another job, and there is no rush since the room is rarely used. But I already said I’d leave it to someone more qualified than myself. But come on guy you really don’t think I can trouble shoot receptacles without starting a fire...


----------



## readydave8 (Sep 20, 2009)

I think OP can do it


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

readydave8 said:


> I think OP can do it


I'm sure he can. Just like any DIYer and handyman could do it if they get lucky.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

readydave8 said:


> I think OP can do it


Thanks to all Hax's advice....:vs_laugh:~CS~:vs_laugh:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Thanks to all Hax's advice....:vs_laugh:~CS~:vs_laugh:


Are you questioning my advice? 

I will out advise you any day of the week.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_Moi?_

No no, _go_ you ....

I'd even vote you pro of the month here lad....

:vs_OMG:~CS~:vs_OMG:


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> _Moi?_
> 
> No no, _go_ you ....
> 
> ...


I'm so far past that it's not even funny.


It's like giving Babe Ruth a Little League trophy.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> I'm sure he can. Just like any DIYer and handyman could do it if they get lucky.



So your only objection is that I’m not a residential electrician?


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Joe Robert said:


> So your only objection is that I’m not a residential electrician?


How many times do I have to say it?

You aren't an electrician _at all_.
You clearly don't know what you are doing.
You are doing work in people's homes that could kill them or their family.


----------



## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

So the problem still isn’t fixed?

This is like the simplest of troubleshooting jobs.

I think in inexperience, it’s easy to assume that when you missed the problem in the common places, that the problem must be buried in a wall.

The problem is that is so rarely the case that its almost laughable.

Question for OP. Have you directly traced the circuit with a meter? I mean, locate the first receptacle in the circuit by disconnecting all receptacles from each other until you had the one and only one receiving power from the panel? Check voltage hot to neutral there?

If it’s good, locate the next one. Actually physically know the circuit. I may have missed it so the wires go up or down? 

You should be able to definitely find the exact spot the neutral goes to ****. 

In 12 years of electrical service and troubleshooting- there’s only been one case where the problem was in the wall. Some DIYer in a double wide made about 15 connections in a wall. I was able to locate the problem in less than 1 hour, cutting into the exact stud bay that the problem was located.

Telling you this mostly as a warning against just ripping out Sheetrock in hopes of finding the problem. Homeowner won’t appreciate a bunch of wall repairs just to find the problem was in a connection in a box that’s been opened since day 1.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

No I did not because it never occurred to me that the problem was behind a wall, I talked to my instructor about it he said it must be, figured a nail or screw got into the neutral causing it to degrade over time, said it happens all the time actually. That’s when he suggested the raceway.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Your instructor at lineman school knows what happens all the time in resi electrical service work, huh...


----------



## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

Joe Robert said:


> No I did not because it never occurred to me that the problem was behind a wall, I talked to my instructor about it he said it must be, figured a nail or screw got into the neutral causing it to degrade over time, said it happens all the time actually. That’s when he suggested the raceway.


A professional would find and eliminate the problem. A diy handyman puts bandaids. 

Residential service work is not for a casual diy’er. There is clearly a problem and it needs to be repaired, not patched up. I know you mentioned the homeowners financial difficulties. Are you doing this for free? If not, would it be more cost effective for an experienced electrician to come and troubleshoot? How much time do you have invested into this problem?


----------



## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

Okay.... I am not 100% following what you are saying....

At the panel all the CB's are at 120V?

Have you identified the first junction/splice on the circuit? If so, what is your voltage: (L-N) (L-G) (N-G)


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

HackWork said:


> Your instructor at lineman school knows what happens all the time in resi electrical service work, huh...


Yes, linemen make great electricians, didn't you know that?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> You are doing work in people's homes that could kill them or their family.


Perhaps you could post pix of burn victims and conflagrations to make your point Hax.....

:vs_cool:

~CS~


----------



## LibertyRising (Jan 2, 2018)

chicken steve said:


> Perhaps you could post pix of burn victims and conflagrations to make your point Hax.....
> 
> :vs_cool:
> 
> ~CS~


I could list the amount of times in the last year that I could see homeowners or contractors, trying to save a few bucks and hire less than qualified help, end up paying more because of incomplete jobs, poor workmanship needing redo, job lags behind schedule costing time and money, or like what might happen here- excessive unnecessary time or work chasing imaginary or inconclusive problems.

I’m all for freedom and this is a risk the homeowners take all the time. I think the negativity on the subject comes from the fact that there are actually qualified people out there who can do the same job efficiently and not bring so much risk to the table.

If OP wants to try to figure it out, I’m all for him exploring his troubleshooting skills, but I thought there was a DIY forums somewhere.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

1/2 my biz are former DIY _follies_ Liberty

And I agree that when the bureaucracies evolve to knocking on our doors ,the flipside of personal responsibility/ freedoms will get ugly

That said, the OP is an electrical professional, thus his presence is sanctioned just as much as we've been witness to a number of _niche_ trade entities here @ ET

That some _never _took so much as a test, held any manner of certification, nor turned a tool in *ANY* trade related venture qualifies the OP's askance eminently 

That he is relentlessly _harassed_ by the usual band of howling _misfits_ is evident of this forum decorum _desired_ direction

~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> That said, the OP is an electrical professional


 NO, he is NOT.

Once again you choose a hill of lies to die on. The OP is not an electrical professional in any sense of the phrase. He is not an electrician. He is in lineman school but hasn't actually been employed as a lineman. He calls himself an "HVAC Tech", which most certainly isn't an electrical professional. Just his questions alone show that he should not doing this work. 

He is doing DIY electrical service work.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

And you are free to complain to the '_ET powers that be_' should you feel that violated here Hax

:vs_cool:
~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> And you are free to complain to the '_ET powers that be_' should you feel that violated here Hax
> 
> :vs_cool:
> ~CS~


They are too busy not doing their job to be bothered. They can't even get the search function to work, where are they going to find time to shutdown DIY threads.

But good job distracting from the fact that you were wrong in your holier than thou post about this DIYer being an electrical professional.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

chicken steve said:


> And you are free to complain to the '_ET powers that be_' should you feel that violated here Hax
> 
> :vs_cool:
> ~CS~


If that worked at all you would have been gone long ago. You have already told us you are a CFO and not an electrician at all. Your posts have shown you are neither.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

I started to read this thread and got to the bantering
so I forged ahead to here...sighhhhh.:no:

Anyhoo , I just got back from troubleshooting.

It's the same scenario (except not a finished basement.

I will give you Lighter Up's special (don't tell know one) 
secret of how to find a floating neutral in about 5 minutes.

First determine it's a floating neutral by checking the circuit
effected...make a note of everything NOT working.
(In today's case it was a multi-wire circuit feeding (2)
120 volt branch circuits that combined outlets & lights.)

Turn off that circuit.

Then you get some NM (romex) and put a male plug on 
one end...then take an extension cord and plug into the
nearest outlet (not working) ,...then plug the extension cord
into the plug you just made up.

Then land the other end of the romex to the neutral bar 
and circuit breaker & turn on.

Then start checking evry outlet and light (that wasn't 
working before you implemented Lighter Up's secret 
troubleshooting method).

Once you get to what's not working , that is where the
floating neutral will be found.

Whallla!


----------



## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

*Suicide Cord Alert!!!!!! *


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

macmikeman said:


> *Suicide Cord Alert!!!!!! *


:vs_laugh:


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

I’m very confident that I am capable of performing the work I described safely, I would not have attempted otherwise. However confidence does not determine reality. I believe it is always best to err on the side of caution, even more so with electricity. From now on I will keep my posts related only to tasks I have been properly trained and authorized to perform. Thank you ALL for your input.


----------



## LARMGUY (Aug 22, 2010)




----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> That said, the OP is an electrical professional, thus his presence is sanctioned just as much as we've been witness to a number of _niche_ trade entities here @ ET
> 
> That some _never _took so much as a test, held any manner of certification, nor turned a tool in *ANY* trade related venture qualifies the OP's askance eminently
> 
> ...


You don't seem to realize that no matter how much you complain, you are simply not taken seriously here. You have no credibility. Get it through your head already.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

MTW said:


> You don't seem to realize that no matter how much you complain, you are simply not taken seriously here. You have no credibility. Get it through your head already.


*Darling you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say advice is fine
I'll post it 'til the end of time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
It's always tease, tease, tease
When they call every pro a sleeze
And then they openly attack
Hoping them never to come back
Well, come on and let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go, there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know

The indecisions bugging me
(esta un decision me molesta)

I could scrape off these ET fleas
(Si no quieres librame)

Exactly who I'm supposed to be
(Diga me que tengo ser)

Don't you know which badges fits me?
(saves que robas me querida)

Come on and let me know
(Me tienes que decir)

Should I cool it or should I blow?
(Me debo ir o quedarme)*
:vs_cool:

~C(w/apologies to the Clash)S~


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> You probably _don't _Joe
> 
> In fact , many of us here hail from an _analog_ era where digital goodies did not exist
> 
> ...


How is Duct Seal going to help?
(Bet he's never seen a hand crank megger) :vs_laugh:


----------



## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> *Darling you got to let me know
> Should I stay or should I go?
> If you say advice is fine
> I'll post it 'til the end of time
> ...


Joe Strummer called and he wants his royalties. 
Oh wait........he's dead. Never mind. :biggrin:


----------



## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Maybe you could save any money you plan on using to buy meters and donate it to them to help them pay the electrician


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

This is where Canada leads the US. 

Only licensed electricians can work on electrical for a reason IMO.

In my province, A home owner can do work in the home he/she resides in If they get it inspected, but NO ONE can work on someone else’s house without qualifications, permits etc.


----------



## StriickeN (Sep 11, 2017)

Same rules in my state :/


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

eddy current said:


> This is where Canada leads the US.
> 
> Only licensed electricians can work on electrical for a reason IMO.
> 
> In my province, A home owner can do work in the home he/she resides in If they get it inspected, but NO ONE can work on someone else’s house without qualifications, permits etc.


That’s most likely the situation here. This guy is doing illegal work, never mind dangerous.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

eddy current said:


> This is where Canada leads the US.
> 
> Only licensed electricians can work on electrical for a reason IMO.
> 
> In my province, A home owner can do work in the home he/she resides in If they get it inspected, but NO ONE can work on someone else’s house without qualifications, permits etc.


That is the way 'civilized' states in this country operate as well.

There are a few rogue states where licenses are non existent or optional.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Joe Robert said:


> I see your point, into the wall it is, no bandaids. No I’ve never used one but I’ve used a fault wizard on underground cables, I believe they are pretty similar. I may pick one up


Do yourself and your in-laws a a favor, call in a licensed electrician.

Do HVAC-lineman get a lot of work in Ohio?


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Joe, don't let one or two idiots get under your skin. 

Pm me, I'll tell you what to do, and how to do it.

Cheers,


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

[post removed by admin]



> 4. Do not disclose private information about members without their consent (e.g. names, contact details, pictures, details about personal life, etc. - this includes private messages, Facebook, email and social media in part.) Rules


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Helmut said:


> Joe, don't let one or two idiots get under your skin.
> 
> Pm me, I'll tell you what to do, and how to do it.
> 
> Cheers,


So you are good with an unlicensed person doing DIY work with your advice?

Maybe take a look at the intent of this site as a whole.

About Joe Robert

What is your electrical related field/trade:
Lineman

Occupation
*HVAC Tech.*


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

MechanicalDVR said:


> So you are good with an unlicensed person doing DIY work with your advice?
> 
> Maybe take a look at the intent of this site as a whole.
> 
> ...



License smichense. 

And yeah, I'd help anyone out.


----------



## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

lighterup said:


> I started to read this thread and got to the bantering
> so I forged ahead to here...sighhhhh.:no:
> 
> Anyhoo , I just got back from troubleshooting.
> ...


That might be the worst advice I have ever heard. Are you ****ing crazy?


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Helmut said:


> License smichense.
> 
> And yeah, I'd help anyone out.


That may come back to bite you on day.


----------



## CFCPWN (Feb 7, 2017)

Joe Robert said:


> Father-in-law asked me to take a look at a room in his finished basement where a few outlets randomly stopped working. Neutral is open somewhere, don’t want to tear up a bunch of drywall to find it, so I thought I’d just run a raceway to the affected outlets. Problem is I know nothing about residential code, which makes me hesitant to offer to do it.
> 
> What do you guys think? Am I being foolish to think it’s so easy or what?


I hope you realize after all the childish bantering from the X-Spurts, AKA "used to be a drips under pressure, " there's no such thing as a stupid question".

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. 

Thanks for asking the question, that's why most of us are on here, to learn, mentor and provide valuable feedback whenever possible. 





Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eddy current said:


> This is where Canada leads the US.
> 
> *Only licensed electricians can work on electrical for a reason* IMO.
> 
> In my province, A home owner can do work in the home he/she resides in If they get it inspected, but NO ONE can work on someone else’s house without qualifications, permits etc.


I think you'll find if you go_ full _circle with this, that it ends up more a _liability_ issue than that of _certification_ Ed.

~CS~


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

CFCPWN said:


> Thanks for asking the question, that's why most of us are on here, to learn, mentor and provide valuable feedback whenever possible.


Right, don't buy any green bananas.....:vs_OMG:~CS~:devil3:


----------



## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> I think you'll find if you go_ full _circle with this, that it ends up more a _liability_ issue than that of _certification_ Ed.
> 
> ~CS~


Can you explain what you mean by that?

Are you saying people without certification should be allowed to work on electrical?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

eddy current said:


> Can you explain what you mean by that?
> 
> Are you saying people without certification should be allowed to work on electrical?


No

I'm a certification _advocate_ Ed

But one needs MORE than that to deal with the _public_

~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> No
> 
> I'm a certification _advocate_ Ed
> 
> ...


And the OP doesn't have that "MORE" that you mentioned. He doesn't have a license, certification, nor does he have the knowledge, skills, or experience to be doing this work for someone else.

Yet YOU advocated him doing the work and fought against those people saying that they should just call an electrician to do it.

Again, could you possibly be any more hypocritical??


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

StriickeN said:


> Maybe you could save any money you plan on using to buy meters and donate it to them to help them pay the electrician



I had that exact thought yesterday, if the cost would be around $200 (someone here said as low as 125) it’d be silly to buy a toner I’ll use once a year max.



MechanicalDVR said:


> Do yourself and your in-laws a a favor, call in a licensed electrician.
> 
> 
> 
> Do HVAC-lineman get a lot of work in Ohio?



Lineman school doesn’t pay and since I’m in lineman school during working hours I don’t get a ton of hours doing hvac. But money won’t be an issue in four months when I graduate!



HackWork said:


> [post removed by admin]



We may have had our disagreements in the past, but you’ve crossed the line now. DO NOT diss the Harry Potter books I grew up on hahaha



CFCPWN said:


> I hope you realize after all the childish bantering from the X-Spurts, AKA "used to be a drips under pressure, " there's no such thing as a stupid question".
> 
> A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
> 
> ...



Yeah I’m beginning to think a lot of the discussion on this thread has a lot more to do with a personal feud between members than it does with my question. Nonetheless I have received very valuable guidance. Mostly that mini fault wizards exist for residential (no **** Joe) and the issues related to bypassing a fault rather than properly fixing it.

My withdrawal from seeking help here is in part due to my fear that I was violating forum rules by making a “DIY” post, but yesterday I saw that admins shut those down, which leads me to believe they have seen this thread and determined it did not fit the DIY criteria.

I am positive the problem is behind a wall, meaning I would need to but a toner ill rarely use to properly fix the fault. So I believe the wisest course of action is to simply wait until I or my father in law have the funds for a licensed electrician, there’s no rush.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Don’t be mistaken. You are without a doubt a do-it-yourselfer. Just because the moderators failed in their duty, it does not change that fact.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Joe Robert said:


> I had that exact thought yesterday, if the cost would be around $200 (someone here said as low as 125) it’d be silly to buy a toner I’ll use once a year max.
> 
> *Those prices really sound way low to me.*
> 
> ...


So you aren't really an electrician and in my opinion really shouldn't be playing with a repair of this type as a DIYer outside of your own house.


----------



## Joe Robert (Dec 21, 2017)

HackWork said:


> Don’t be mistaken. You are without a doubt a do-it-yourselfer. Just because the moderators failed in their duty, it does not change that fact.



I won’t argue with your reasoning or the conclusion it led you to. The disagreement here stems from the definition of a DIYer, it seems that there is a distinction to be made between myself and someone who asks if the black wire goes to gold or silver. You are choosing to err on the side of caution (perhaps heavily) which is almost always better than the alternative.


----------



## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Joe Robert said:


> I won’t argue with your reasoning or the conclusion it led you to. The disagreement here stems from the definition of a DIYer, it seems that there is a distinction to be made between myself and someone who asks if the black wire goes to gold or silver. You are choosing to err on the side of caution (perhaps heavily) which is almost always better than the alternative.


1. Linework is far different than inside wiring.

2. Being in school for linework gives you ZERO real world wiring experience let alone any troubleshooting ability.

3. Lack of knowledge on what you are working on is a HUGE liability.

4. All of that makes you just a do-it-yourselfer to anyone with some common sense, period the end.


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

:biggrin::vs_laugh::thumbsup:


LARMGUY said:


> https://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

eddy current said:


> This is where Canada leads the US.
> 
> Only licensed electricians can work on electrical for a reason IMO.
> 
> In my province, A home owner can do work in the home he/she resides in If they get it inspected, but NO ONE can work on someone else’s house without qualifications, permits etc.


same here in Ohio , but residential only...commercial must 
have license electrician..


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

sbrn33 said:


> That might be the worst advice I have ever heard. Are you ****ing crazy?


:vs_laugh:You're a funny girl


----------



## lighterup (Jun 14, 2013)

HackWork said:


> And the OP doesn't have that "MORE" that you mentioned. He doesn't have a license, certification, nor does he have the knowledge, skills, or experience to be doing this work for someone else.
> 
> Yet YOU advocated him doing the work and fought against those people saying that they should just call an electrician to do it.
> 
> Again, could you possibly be any more hypocritical??


After reading this whole post , you know what is evident to me?

The HO is the one to blame. He is the one who is repeatedly 
decided to have under/non qualified people working on
his homes electrical installation.

The guy got a hack job the first time , so what does he do to
remedy the situation...he get's another non certified / non
qualified person to come in as if that's gonna solve the
problem.

This is EPIDEMIC here in Ohio.

Me & you used to go back & forth about resi service calls.
This is exactly why I cannot compete in this arena...unless
I were to start low balling myself but I happen to be one 
of those people who are trying to protect our trade by not 
getting involved in "the race to the bottom" , so I suffer
for it by watching this garbage go on & on & on & on.

I was recently told my hourly rate was "wayyy too high"...
HO said "the guy before you is at $30.00 an hour" ...
(I'll devulge I'm @ $65.00 per hour)...I skaed to see his
business card...it was an eastern Euorpean name...Russian
IDK?...but no place on his card was there an Ohio State 
EC license # , which we all know would be on that card
if he had one.


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well i have to agree with you on the big '_race to the bottom_' Lighter, having lived it for a career.

In fact i'm rather _opinionated_ about it

That said we've this DIY / Not DIY issue going on , how much ascii are we going to burn up this time?

I've read this sort of beat down_ over and over an over _here

ET lets in all sorts here, trade related in _some_ manner , but many who wouldn't know an outlet from an omlet, some never opened a code book or turned a tool in their _life_.

Correct me if i'm wrong but, we are to treat them as peers when they've been vetted by ET

It's this sites admin and mods who make the call, _not _us. 

We're also not liable for DIY'ers , Verticalscope is

~CS~


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The OP was not "vetted" by anyone.

The OP is an HVAC tech and might one day be a lineman, which means discussions about those topics would be perfectly fine.

In this thread, it is very clear that the OP is doing illegal electrical work that he is not skilled, experienced, or qualified to do (nevermind licensed or insured). He is not a service electrician and shouldn't be doing this work in other people's homes. 

As for you saying that the mods and admins will make the call, then why are you getting involved and giving your opinion? Shouldn't you be writing to Rick Holbrook asking why he gave you bad information?


----------



## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

HackWork said:


> The OP was not "vetted" by anyone.
> 
> ?



Then it's time someone here did Hax

~CS~


----------



## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

The entertainment value of the hypocrisy in this thread is well worth the price of admission.

You are all DIYers in one way of another, and I'd bet 90% of you don't pull every permit that is required for your electrical work, or anything else you do to your properties, given the chance.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

chicken steve said:


> Then it's time someone here did Hax
> 
> ~CS~


You and I agree on that. This thread should have been closed long ago and the OP should have been directed to the DIY forum for these types of questions.


----------



## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Helmut said:


> The entertainment value of the hypocrisy in this thread is well worth the price of admission.
> 
> You are all DIYers in one way of another, and I'd bet 90% of you don't pull every permit that is required for your electrical work, or anything else you do to your properties, given the chance.


That's not even remotely relevant to the discussion because this is still a forum for professional electricians only.


----------



## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

I wish Snape would come kill him.


----------



## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks for posting on ElectricianTalk.com. However, working with electricity and electrical systems can be unsafe if not done by a professional licensed electrician. The moderators of this site would like to advise you to contact a professional electrician in your area.

If you are permitted by law in your area to do your own electrical work, please sign up at our sister site, www.DIYChatroom.com where many of our professionals are also members and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.

Please take a moment to post your question at www.DIYChatroom.com If you're not already a member of DIYChatroom.com you can sign up for a free account by going to http://www.DIYChatroom.com/register.php/

We do have a *linework* section that you might be interested in reading, but as far as questions regarding doing residential electrical work, that needs to be reserved to professional electricians.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused. This thread has been closed.


----------

