# Union vs Private Shop?



## SeaDoo (Aug 23, 2020)

What am I missing here? Why do people even bother with privately owned shops? I went through the 4 year IEC program, turned out and have been part of a shop for a little over 5 years, 1 year as a journeyman. The other day I ran into some Union workers on the job and they sold me pretty hard. 

Right now I'm getting severely underpaid and our shop has put a halt on all pay raises. Not only that but I make $7.50 less than my local union. On top of that I pay $60/week for health insurance. My company matches 401k but they take the $ out of our bonus pot. So you can hardly even call it "matching". There is no pension. No matter what it is regular pay unless I'm 40+ over. So if I'm not at 40 yet and I'm working on a holiday at 3am in the morning you best believe it's straight pay.

The pros are that I do have a van and a gas card, and my company does keep me busy with 40-45 hours a week. That's been consistent even through the rough times we're going through with covid. We are basically a service shop, we don't do any ground ups. I like the work, I don't get stuck bending pipe for 2 months straight, or changing out lamps and ballasts all day. The work I do is something new every job.

What am I missing though, why would anyone join a private shop? Did the Union guys lie to me just to show off the incredible benefits they told me they have... Anyone know the local benefits of joining the Union in the Houston area? I'm just so blown away at how night and day different Union and private shops are, am I thinking correctly? Did I join a cheap private shop? It's the only one I've been a part of so I can't really compare it to anything else. 

**Using a throwaway account, would like to stay anonymous. Some of my co-workers be coming on here.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

It's not that cut and dried.
If you are in a market where there is plenty of good work and can get into a union apprenticeship and work for a union shop, it's really the best way you can go in our trade.
It's not easy to hang out a shingle as a small union shop. 
There are plenty of people content making less than the prevailing wage and that is totally their business as to why. 
If you can find a way to better yourself and are motivated to do so, make it happen.


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## SeaDoo (Aug 23, 2020)

Yeah I don't want to make private shops sound horrible and why the hell would anyone suffer through them. Pay is still good and enough for you to live comfortable, at least for my standards. I don't want to come across as an asshole to anyone that is in them, hell I'm in one. There are a lot of very good electricians in my shop, that are genuinely good people. I wish all of them the best.

I just poor my heart and blood/sweat/tears into this trade and want to make my boss the most amount of $ I possibly can on every job I do. I just don't feel like he puts anywhere close the same amount of effort. I make less than any other journeyman in my company yet all my supervisors say I'm one of the best guys they have. The owner won't give out raises during Covid, and I'm being severely underpaid because of this. Going to call up my local Union. There is plenty of work in Houston, we'll see how this goes. Thanks for your input


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I live in the South just like you. Florida and Texas are pretty much the same with the work mentality.
We are more groomed to just take what we are handed and do really stick together as well as what I call the "founding" states. 
I started out in the trade working non-union.
The boss had a big house, a nice boat and all of the trimmings. He paid his guys crap and would even have them come over to his house and work. Some of the shop worms would wash his boat. 
I thought it was a smack to do such things but, they were so proud to tell each other how nice and big his house was and the nice place he had on the golf course. 
Needless to say, I got out of that crap and into a union apprenticeship program.
We do make about $15 more than the non-union guys in our area plus we have about $15 or so an hour in benefit they don't get. Its still pretty anemic compared to other good union states but, Its what we can get due to the working mentality in our region.


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## eddy current (Feb 28, 2009)

Every area is different. Some areas the union is stronger than others. 

I spent 5 yrs with a non union shop when I started. Loved the work, mainly on a commercial service truck, the odd residential job, felt I was paid a fair wage at the time. No bennies, no pension though. 

Joined the union in my last year of apprenticeship. Wage went up 5 $ an hour plus the bennies, pension, training etc. Because of my experience I was put on the service crew of a large company right away so I got a van, gas card, phone and sub Forman wage (6% above journeyman). Did 40 hours a week plus tons of overtime at double bubble. I was with that company for 15 yrs. 
Going union was the Best move I ever made.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Around here the union shops usually work on the larger projects where they can afford the union wages. But when the large jobs dry up so do the good paying union jobs. Then you go out on furlough. I know union guys that had to rotate 3 month on and 3 months off. This is when the laid off union guys go work non union, non licensed side jobs and take work away from us non union people. Right now many developers in NYC are rethinking the larger construction projects. Some have just walked away taking a loss. There is no way a union shop could do residential service calls around here. People could not afford it.


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## tjb (Feb 12, 2014)

I came up non Union. Worked with some awesome guys. But the money wasn’t there. I organized a few years ago. I immediately went up $7hr in pay, plus health dental and vision, annuity, one of the healthiest pensions in the country, all on top of (not out of) my paycheck. I’ll never look back. 

Non union is fine for some people. Like I said, there’s plenty of great guys in non union shops. Plenty in the local too. But the open shops just can’t touch the money and retirement. One of the best decisions I’ve ever made. 

Might be different in your neck of the woods.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> Around here the union shops usually work on the larger projects where they can afford the union wages. But when the large jobs dry up so do the good paying union jobs. Then you go out on furlough. I know union guys that had to rotate 3 month on and 3 months off. This is when the laid off union guys go work non union, non licensed side jobs and take work away from us non union people. Right now many developers in NYC are rethinking the larger construction projects. Some have just walked away taking a loss. There is no way a union shop could do residential service calls around here. People could not afford it.


I served my apprenticeship with a shop that did a mix of both service and projects.
I completed my apprenticeship and worked on my own service truck for several years along with the other union journeymen running service trucks.
I believe electricians can well produce the margins needed to operate a service truck. 
One unfortunate problem with our trade is we can get into an "installer" mentality and become assemblers instead of electricians.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

My company is one of a half dozen small union shops in my local. Most of us do service work and a few do residential service. The union wages here are low compared to the rest of the country so I have no problem paying union wages and benefits for service truck guys doing residential work. 

The biggest problem I have is getting enough workers out of the hall. Service truck work is a specialty. Residential work is a specialty. It's difficult to find people who are experienced in both those special talents. I could bring in inexperienced people and train them, but that is expensive for a small shop. If I need to staff a gangbox job, I can have ten people and a foreman the next day.

Union shops are better than non-union shops in every way except one. Since non-union shops can bid less because they have lower labor costs, they get more work than union shops. This also is effected by how much influence the union has in an area. If you are a union member and work dries up, you are not allowed to go get non-union work. (If you get caught, you can be fined or expelled.) This is of course offset by the vastly better wages, benefits, training, and working conditions on union jobs.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

Coppersmith said:


> My company is one of a half dozen small union shops in my local. Most of us do service work and a few do residential service. The union wages here are low compared to the rest of the country so I have no problem paying union wages and benefits for service truck guys doing residential work.
> 
> The biggest problem I have is getting enough workers out of the hall. Service truck work is a specialty. Residential work is a specialty. It's difficult to find people who are experienced in both those special talents. I could bring in inexperienced people and train them, but that is expensive for a small shop. If I need to staff a gangbox job, I can have ten people and a foreman the next day.
> 
> Union shops are better than non-union shops in every way except one. Since non-union shops can bid less because they have lower labor costs, they get more work than union shops. This also is effected by how much influence the union has in an area. If you are a union member and work dries up, you are not allowed to go get non-union work. (If you get caught, you can be fined or expelled.) This is of course offset by the vastly better wages, benefits, training, and working conditions on union jobs.


Our hall is pretty much a walkthrough right now. We do have brothers working in other states right now. That is sometimes an option. Not really the best if you have a young family.


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## CMP (Oct 30, 2019)

Union versus Non, is not the only deciding factor on being successful in the trade and in your life. I think it depends on your life outlook and needs and wants.

Many post's focus foremost on pay and bennies first. And that is important, but not necessarily the most important. When I got into the trade, the nepotism in the union was so strong, there wasn't a chance for me as I wasn't connected.

My motivation was that I wanted to learn this trade, separate from the family business, and become independent of my own accord. And I enjoyed this type of work compared to the others I participated in. Heck mom let me change our service 2 circuit fuse panel when I was 12, put in a used 6 circuit model, and we no longer needed pennies under the fuses to get laundry done or the AC to run.

I apprenticed under a party boy doing new houses and commercial work. After a couple years I moved on to a industrial plant working in a test lab, hired there for electrical skills. It didn't take long for me to love the work there, but realize that I wasn't cut out for the corporate life. I displaced seven cohorts in that department, and eventually claimed several of their paychecks. But I left anyway, because I couldn't stand people telling me what needed to be done and when. They didn't have a clue what the department need done, just wanted their pet projects worked on.

I went back to the party boy, but this time as a 50% partner. Spent 10 years there honing my abilities, acquiring customers and obtaining a masters license. Trying to change the habits of the party boy proved fruitless. Even offering him his salary and benefits to stay home and party, the employees hated working with him.

I learned a lot from him, mostly what not to do. His customers always complained about him, and began to call me instead, stating they didn't want him on their site. That is where I learned that your skill, work ethic, honesty and fairness is what wins customers loyalty. In short trust.

Once your customers have full trust in you as a person and your abilities, price is no longer the major factor, they don't want to call anyone else.

After the business was well established, the union contacted us and offered to sign us up. At that point I didn't see the need as I had already accomplished the things that the union could offer. I have nothing against a union, I think it's a good thing for many folks if you can get in and fit in. It sure could be easier than starting from scratch.

40 years later I'm still using those same principals. I only work off of referrals from my circle, no website, no adverting, no office phone.

I learned to take on difficult projects that most contractors don't want to touch, even if it requires research and study. Even the competition sends me work, that they don't want to do, even if I offer them help with the projects. Those type of jobs became my specialty, and often branch into mechanical and piping to fulfill the customers needs.

It's been years since I've had to sit and bid a job. The contractors I worked with usually know a ballpark price for their project, from prior history, oftentimes we will issue a not to exceed number. They can take their cut, whatever that may be for managing the project, as long as I get what I need.

But... this is only possible when you have complete trust in your customers and team players in your circle. I finance my own work and don't use credit. I never take on a project that I can't afford to loose on. I use my judgment on customers, and am not afraid to fire them if they are unworkable in any way.

I learned that years ago. If you work for someone that you have to chase for your money, best thing to do is fire them. They can no longer waste your time and effort, and you will have time when the phone rings to try a new customer that may not be such a pain to work with.

The main takeaway from all this for me is freedom. Freedom from depending on a boss to make the correct choices. Freedom to pursue the things you like to do. Freedom to tell a customer NO if you don't want to assume their liability. Freedom to take on other forms of work when one area dries up. Freedom to pursue your own course.

It's not for everyone, as it can be a huge responsibility. But if done correctly it can be very rewarding and not just in terms of income. I have built a large circle in many industries, and when I need something I have many people to call on. And I have never had to worry about acquiring work, just the opposite, which customers are you going to keep.


I remember the days of being called a low voltage daredevil or a scab on jobs. But that never bothered me, because I was sure of my abilities. Neither does it bother me when my union friends take on side work that they are not supposed to do. It's all fair game to me, each according to his abilities. I have even made good friends with inspectors giving a violation for something they were uneducated about, having the right attitude and sharing your knowledge can produce meaningful friendships.


It's all about what your looking to get out of it and what your willing to put into it. If you study Tesla's history he was a misfit as well, and took much abuse for it as well. But the day he died the fed's moved in to confiscate all of his work. I'll try to make time to post a new article about his wireless power distribution system, that he got run out of town for, It's coming back into vogue now that wired distribution systems have become too costly.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

I swear...I keep reading "Pirate Shop" when I see this in the threads.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

I worked open shop 8 years
Union 8 years
Operated a Union shop 34 years.

Pay and bennies (Health Care Retirement) are important you are away from your home 40+ hours a week may as well get as much as you can for those 40+.


Depending on where you live.

But if there is very little union in your area you could be bench warming or traveling parts or all of some years.

Now if you are fortunate enough to live near Washington DC, I will put you to work tomorrow and have you working 60+ hours a week. Work has always been good here at least the last 50 years.

Open shops drive nicer cars than I do and have bigger houses and boats, WHY because they pay you less, in my experience they charge the same or slight less (AROUND HERE). Some charge more and some a lot more. I DO NOT fault them but feel they should share in the wealth with employees. 


If you can go union go, at 40 having been on a service truck you might end up in construction, a little harder than service .

There are union service shops, that is what I do mostly, though we do construction work as well.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Coppersmith said:


> My company is one of a half dozen small union shops in my local. Most of us do service work and a few do residential service. The union wages here are low compared to the rest of the country so I have no problem paying union wages and benefits for service truck guys doing residential work.
> 
> The biggest problem I have is getting enough workers out of the hall. Service truck work is a specialty. Residential work is a specialty. It's difficult to find people who are experienced in both those special talents. I could bring in inexperienced people and train them, but that is expensive for a small shop. If I need to staff a gangbox job, I can have ten people and a foreman the next day.
> 
> Union shops are better than non-union shops in every way except one. Since non-union shops can bid less because they have lower labor costs, they get more work than union shops. This also is effected by how much influence the union has in an area. If you are a union member and work dries up, you are not allowed to go get non-union work. (If you get caught, you can be fined or expelled.) This is of course offset by the vastly better wages, benefits, training, and working conditions on union jobs.


You mentioned about when work dries up. I am a non union shop with only one employee. Years ago when the big work was scarce, many union workers were laid off. Some got electrical licenses and opened up non union shops. Many did not bother to get a license. Trump gets in and work opens up and these same workers kept their non union shops and went back to working for the Union in the city. I had a small office space for rent and 3 of the six people interested in renting were Local XX electricians wanting to set up shop. And I was called a scab???


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

I have a small union shop. Yes, I could find people to pay less and not offer benefits but I have done it this long and in less than 2years I’ll be done with it.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

kb1jb1 said:


> You mentioned about when work dries up. I am a non union shop with only one employee. Years ago when the big work was scarce, many union workers were laid off. Some got electrical licenses and opened up non union shops. Many did not bother to get a license. Trump gets in and work opens up and these same workers kept their non union shops and went back to working for the Union in the city. I had a small office space for rent and 3 of the six people interested in renting were Local XX electricians wanting to set up shop. And I was called a scab???


Trump. :vs_laugh: Lol rode in on some coattails.


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## cuba_pete (Dec 8, 2011)

Certain unions are like socialist organizations doing the hard work for capitalist countries.

Seems fair, doesn't it?

I can join a union, or "bargaining unit" and I work for the Federal Government. I'm not sure how that really works, so I don't join for the privilege of giving additional time or money to people who provide "added benefits" for grievances against my employer. _That _seems really weird.


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## Tonedeaf (Nov 26, 2012)

If you can get in and get the work, Union is the way to go...you can't beat the wages and benefits....

It's pretty easy for people to say just join the union...the fact of the matter is there is only so many spots and the chances of getting in aren't so good if you don't have an inside connection......Now they would sign you up in a hot minute if you try to organize your current employer.. He prolly won't end up organized, but you'll get your card. 

if you can't get in and want to make more money....tread water with the guy your with until you get your license. Start you own thing. A Service/Repair work business is alot easier to do nowadays with google adds and the other referral services....


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> I have a small union shop. Yes, I could find people to pay less and not offer benefits but I have done it this long and in less than 2years I’ll be done with it.



How old are you?

What will you do with your business?


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> How old are you?
> 
> What will you do with your business?


I’m 60.
I plan to completely retire at 62, take all of my retirement early.
I don’t consider my business to be very transferable as I do design build projects.
I would consider carrying my customer base for the right person, I can consistently do 10k to 15k per week in revenue and spike into the 20ks if projects bump into each other.
We have about 500k in projects on the books to complete plus my nightmare plan and spec school board job with about 125k left to invoice.
I can take more of those jobs but, they are small margin and pay slow so I decline any offers they have.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> I’m 60.
> I plan to completely retire at 62, take all of my retirement early.
> I don’t consider my business to be very transferable as I do design build projects.
> I would consider carrying my customer base for the right person, I can consistently do 10k to 15k per week in revenue and spike into the 20ks if projects bump into each other.
> ...


So you are starting the backout?

In Feburary I will have two to go as well.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

brian john said:


> So you are starting the backout?
> 
> In Feburary I will have two to go as well.


I just want to hop off while my health is good.
I could hang on until 67 but, I just don't feel like I need to.
I haven't had any health issues except for that Covid thing. That was very sobering.


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## stiffneck (Nov 8, 2015)

SeaDoo said:


> What am I missing here? Why do people even bother with privately owned shops? I went through the 4 year IEC program, turned out and have been part of a shop for a little over 5 years, 1 year as a journeyman. The other day I ran into some Union workers on the job and they sold me pretty hard.
> 
> Right now I'm getting severely underpaid and our shop has put a halt on all pay raises. Not only that but I make $7.50 less than my local union. On top of that I pay $60/week for health insurance. My company matches 401k but they take the $ out of our bonus pot. So you can hardly even call it "matching". There is no pension. No matter what it is regular pay unless I'm 40+ over. So if I'm not at 40 yet and I'm working on a holiday at 3am in the morning you best believe it's straight pay.
> 
> ...


If IBEW is so much better than IECA or any other, then why didn't you start out IBEW, in the first place?


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Southeast Power said:


> I live in the South just like you. Florida and Texas are pretty much the same with the work mentality.
> We are more groomed to just take what we are handed and do really stick together as well as what I call the "founding" states.
> I started out in the trade working non-union.
> The boss had a big house, a nice boat and all of the trimmings. He paid his guys crap and would even have them come over to his house and work. Some of the shop worms would wash his boat.
> ...



I've worked for union contractors that had me go work on their homes, not sure that is really an issue.

I have worked both sides of the fence and feel union training and compensation packages are just better (area dependent).


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

MechanicalDVR said:


> I've worked for union contractors that had me go work on their homes, not sure that is really an issue.


I am a union contractor. When I have service truck guys, I pay them for 40 hours a week regardless of how few hours they actually work. (Sometimes they just have a couple of hours of work.) So if I need some work done at my house that is even the least bit electrically related, and I have a guy who is sitting around, I will him come over and do it. Seems fair to me. I don't have them come over and rake leaves, but they can wash my work truck.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

Coppersmith said:


> I am a union contractor. When I have service truck guys, I pay them for 40 hours a week regardless of how few hours they actually work. (Sometimes they just have a couple of hours of work.) So if I need some work done at my house that is even the least bit electrically related, and I have a guy who is sitting around, I will him come over and do it. Seems fair to me. I don't have them come over and rake leaves, but they can wash my work truck.


Seems like a good thing to me. 

I've had good employers that I often was very friendly with outside of the office.

Been to their vacation houses, out on their boats, etc


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

mechanicaldvr said:


> seems like a good thing to me.
> 
> I've had good employers that i often was very friendly with outside of the office.
> 
> Been to their vacation houses, out on their boats, etc


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## oldsparky52 (Feb 25, 2020)

Coppersmith said:


> I am a union contractor. When I have service truck guys, I pay them for 40 hours a week regardless of how few hours they actually work. (Sometimes they just have a couple of hours of work.) So if I need some work done at my house that is even the least bit electrically related, and I have a guy who is sitting around, I will him come over and do it. Seems fair to me. I don't have them come over and rake leaves, but they can wash my work truck.


If you are willing to pay union wages to have someone rake leaves, I don't see a problem.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

Union vs Non-Union is for suckers.

If you really want a future, you should be thinking Employer vs Employee.

Employers make out much better than an employee is in this trade.


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## Coppersmith (Aug 11, 2017)

oldsparky52 said:


> If you are willing to pay union wages to have someone rake leaves, I don't see a problem.


Paying the wages and what they do for those wages are two separate issues. Service electricians are hard to get so I don't want to lose any.

Service jobs vary in length from one hour to several days. I try to arrange the schedule to maximize the number of billable hours per day, but sometimes you just end up with two one hour jobs which means a lot of down time. Yet, service electricians still expect to get paid 40 hours per week. If I want to avoid having them quit, I have to pay them 40 hours. It's really not a matter of "willing to pay". The truck breaks even on labor at 20 hours so this usually is not a problem.

Electricians (especially union electricians) get prickly if you ask them to do work that is not electrical work. I don't want to piss them off and have them quit, so I avoid asking them to rake leaves unless the leaves are covering switchgear or a trench I want dug.


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## Dan the electricman (Jan 2, 2011)

Helmut said:


> Union vs Non-Union is for suckers.
> 
> If you really want a future, you should be thinking Employer vs Employee.
> 
> Employers make out much better than an employee is in this trade.


Employers don't always make out better than employees, especially in small new companies. I've been both, and prefer being an employer, though.

However, some people are not cut out to suffer the long days, steep business learning curve, constant customer acquisition, and handling difficult employees.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Generally speaking, the union is for communists and non-union is for capitalists.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MTW said:


> Generally speaking, the union is for communists and non-union is for capitalists.


Is that so?


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

460 Delta said:


> Is that so?


It is so.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

MTW said:


> It is so.


Not true. 

Many electricians aren't capable of running a shop, many employees want a job with a good wage, good bennies and some sort of security with a stable wage and retirement that follows them throughout their career.


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## 460 Delta (May 9, 2018)

MTW said:


> It is so.


I see.


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## Helmut (May 7, 2014)

brian john said:


> Not true.
> 
> Many electricians aren't capable of running a shop,


Some sure feel like they could run your business better than you.


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> Generally speaking, the union is for communists and non-union is for capitalists.


Still sucking **** out of your own ass I see. You never disappoint


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> Still sucking **** out of your own ass I see. You never disappoint


You're still going to vote for a gun grabber. Makes perfect sense to me. :no::no:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Helmut said:


> Some sure feel like they could run your business better than you.


Maybe behind my back never heard any real bitching to my face.

Had a few guys talking to me a few years back explaining how the man always screws the worker.

I reminded them I was "THE MAN"


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

MTW said:


> You're still going to vote for a gun grabber. Makes perfect sense to me. :no::no:


One day you will post something about electricity. 
Im sure it will amaze all of us.


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Southeast Power said:


> One day you will post something about electricity.
> Im sure it will amaze all of us.


Just like how you will amaze us with your liberal hypocrisy.


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## Quickservice (Apr 23, 2020)

kb1jb1 said:


> Around here the union shops usually work on the larger projects where they can afford the union wages. *But when the large jobs dry up so do the good paying union jobs. Then you go out on furlough. I know union guys that had to rotate 3 month on and 3 months off. * This is when the laid off union guys go work non union, non licensed side jobs and take work away from us non union people. Right now many developers in NYC are rethinking the larger construction projects. Some have just walked away taking a loss. There is no way a union shop could do residential service calls around here. People could not afford it.


This has happened to many of my friends during the 2009 recession and when COVID hit. Just something to keep in mind.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

flyboy said:


> View attachment 146920



Yeah figures that would be your thought.

I'm as much a boot licker as you are son.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted by kb1jb1 View Post
> Around here the union shops usually work on the larger projects where they can afford the union wages. *But when the large jobs dry up so do the good paying union jobs.* Then you go out on furlough. I know union guys that had to rotate 3 month on and 3 months off. This is when the laid off union guys go work non union, non licensed side jobs and take work away from us non union people. Right now many developers in NYC are rethinking the larger construction projects. Some have just walked away taking a loss. There is no way a union shop could do residential service calls around here. People could not afford it.


Heading into 51 years in the trade 42 union, AROUND HERE, if the union jobs dry up so do open shop. I have worked 51 years missing one day due too layoff.


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