# Residential bonding of water pipe/Pex



## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

I just had a electrical inspection today. Unfortunately i was unable to be there due to recent heart failure. My general contractor who is familiar with electrical met with the inspector. He called out that the water pipe which enters through the side of the foundation to be bonded. The entire house was ran in plastic (PEX). The metal pipe coming through the foundation is only 8-12" long where it immediately turns to PEX. I am having a hard time believing that this metal pipe is required to be bonded when there are no electrical circuits that come in contact with it and the fact it is only 8-12" long. Having to bond this water pipe requires running at least 60 feet of bare copper to the other side of the house to the panel. He is also requiring a ugly access hatch for the ground clamp which would be highly visible in a guest room. The inspector is a new young guy. Is he correct in calling out this correction? It seems to me it would act more as a supplemental grounding if done rather than just a bond.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Is the pipe plastic outside? So only 12 inches is copper? If that is so, bonding it will accomplish nothing. The metal water pipe is a wonderful ground when it's run for miles. It has nothing to do with contact to house circuits.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

Up here the code says "where a metal water piping system is installed....." 
Doesn't seem to me that metal stub qualifies as a piping system. 
code ref (for the other canucks) 10-406(2)
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

The point is not just to bond the pipes in the house, it's to use the metal pipe system outside of the house as a grounding electrode.

I use #2 aluminum for 200A services. Never use copper.


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Is the inspector considering it a grounding electrode or just "metal piping that may become energized?"

Did he cite the code article?


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

A cold water pipe is considered a Grounding Electrode and it is to ground the electric system, not so much the water pipes. 

250.4(a)(1) Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation. 

250.52(a)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0m or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulation joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed. 

If metallic piping in the home, it should all be bonded together so they all have the same impedance . This includes- hot water pipe, cold water pipe, sewer pipe, gas pipes. 

I was once in a home where i was reading 115v between the cold water handle in the shower and the floor drain. Someone had cut the waste stack and replaced a section with PVC. By chance, an old rag wire had enough insulation rubbed off that it made direct contact with the galvanized waste stack. The occupants where getting shocked every time they showered or washed their hands in the bathroom. Scary to think that at any moment they could have cooked themselves to death while in the shower.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

HackWork said:


> I use #2 aluminum for 200A services. Never use copper.


Why is that? I only use #4 copper stranded myself.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kyrton said:


> Why is that? I only use #4 copper stranded myself.


You clearly hate profit.

Why not use gold?


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## Cow (Jan 16, 2008)

Kyrton said:


> Why is that? I only use #4 copper stranded myself.


Hack saves money anywhere he can. We also use #4 copper.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Kyrton said:


> Why is that? I only use #4 copper stranded myself.


He can only use that inside to the water main. Most of us just carry #4 CU on the truck and call it good. Besides, customer pays.


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

The metal pipe is metal underground from stub continuously to outside where it connects with the city supply. The inspector did not cite code references. He did not mention if he wanted it bonded for grounding electrode purposes or that it was likly to become energized. In Seattle they are no longer giving contractors hand written corrections


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

Gas has been bonded and there are also 2 ground rods. The service and bonding was existing


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Cow said:


> Hack saves money anywhere he can. We also use #4 copper.


 I don't consider it saving money as much as I see it as not doing something completely unnecessary for no reason at all.

There is absolutely no benefit in using a copper GEC. It is literally throwing money in the garbage.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

dham206 said:


> The metal pipe is metal underground from stub continuously to outside where it connects with the city supply. The inspector did not cite code references. He did not mention if he wanted it bonded for grounding electrode purposes or that it was likly to become energized. In Seattle they are no longer giving contractors hand written corrections


Inspector is correct.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

dham206 said:


> The metal pipe is metal underground from stub continuously to outside where it connects with the city supply. The inspector did not cite code references. He did not mention if he wanted it bonded for grounding electrode purposes or that it was likly to become energized. In Seattle they are no longer giving contractors hand written corrections


Sorry if I missed this, but where are you getting your system ground from? 
I always get it from the city water pipe, when there is one. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dham206 said:


> The metal pipe is metal underground from stub continuously to outside where it connects with the city supply. The inspector did not cite code references. He did not mention if he wanted it bonded for grounding electrode purposes or that it was likly to become energized. In Seattle they are no longer giving contractors hand written corrections


You need to do it. I believe it's 250.104.

ETA, see the below post for the correct section.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

dham206 said:


> The metal pipe is metal underground from stub continuously to outside where it connects with the city supply. The inspector did not cite code references. He did not mention if he wanted it bonded for grounding electrode purposes or that it was likly to become energized. In Seattle they are no longer giving contractors hand written corrections


Then 250.52(a)(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe does apply and it is considered an electrode conductor.


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

PlugsAndLights said:


> Sorry if I missed this, but where are you getting your system ground from?
> I always get it from the city water pipe, when there is one.
> P&L


There are 2 ground rods and the gas line is also bonded. The electrical panel and grounding system were existing.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

Btw I use #4 copper for all bonding, grounding and ground rods. Yes it costs more, Yes my customers pay for my convenience of only having one type of wire on the truck and the ducking Kenny Clamps I have to use.. I hate Kenny clamps.


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## PlugsAndLights (Jan 19, 2016)

dham206 said:


> There are 2 ground rods and the gas line is also bonded. The electrical panel and grounding system were existing.


In that case, I'll stick with post #3. 
P&L


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

Kyrton said:


> Btw I use #4 copper for all bonding, grounding and ground rods. Yes it costs more, Yes my customers pay for my convenience of only having one type of wire on the truck and the ducking Kenny Clamps I have to use.. I hate Kenny clamps.


Why would you use a Kenny clamp? Jeeze, you REALLY hate profit.


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

Kyrton said:


> Btw I use #4 copper for all bonding, grounding and ground rods. Yes it costs more, Yes my customers pay for my convenience of only having one type of wire on the truck and the ducking Kenny Clamps I have to use.. I hate Kenny clamps.


Interesting, I would use #4 too then a old timer inspector on a different job gave me crap about using #4 and told me to use #6.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

dham206 said:


> There are 2 ground rods and the gas line is also bonded. The electrical panel and grounding system were existing.


What grounding system was existing? Ground rods are considered supplemental. Years ago, before plastic piping an electrician could ground the cold water anywhere. Now it has to be as close the entry point of the home. It sound like the old ground was probably cut out when they installed all the PVC/CPVC piping.


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## Kyrton (Feb 2, 2016)

HackWork said:


> Why would you use a Kenny clamp? Jeeze, you REALLY hate profit.


It is required by every county I work in.


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## HackWork (Oct 2, 2009)

dham206 said:


> There are 2 ground rods and the gas line is also bonded. The electrical panel and grounding system were existing.


250.50 says all grounding electrodes that are present much be bonded. 250.52 says that the metal water pipe coming into the house is a grounding electrode. So it must be bonded.


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## dham206 (Mar 6, 2016)

Kyrton said:


> What grounding system was existing? Ground rods are considered supplemental. Years ago, before plastic piping an electrician could ground the cold water anywhere. Now it has to be as close the entry point of the home. It sound like the old ground was probably cut out when they installed all the PVC/CPVC piping.


Yes you are correct. The old water pipes were copper and were cut out during demo. Where the water comes in the house is on the other side of the residence. Id need at least 60' of bare maybe more like 80' and have a access hatch installed at the bond location. Home owner is not crazy about it but if it has to be done then so be it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Metallic municipal h20 is a GEC , in fact it's probably miles long and the_ best _one found in any given job site. 

Inasmuch as one can '_bond'_ to it , it's to be treated as a GEC ....

~CS~


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Kyrton said:


> Btw I use #4 copper for all bonding, grounding and ground rods. Yes it costs more, Yes my customers pay for my convenience of only having one type of wire on the truck and the ducking Kenny Clamps I have to use.. I hate Kenny clamps.


A joke that have been proven less affective then two ground rods


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