# Covering new construction cans with spray foam



## JoeKP (Nov 16, 2009)

let the inspector find it and flag it, the guy has to learn the hard way


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

If you can't pull the can, then it's not to code. The things are going to start blinking unless you put some very small watt bulbs in them. The HO will care then.


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

Right now I would make the GC confirm in writing that he does not want it fixed. That way when the inspector makes an issue of it you will have covered your ass.

As for who's problem it is... Unless you told them ahead of time not to cover the JBs then I would say it is your problem.
Other subtrades don't know what a junction box looks like and wouldn't care if they did.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BBS said:


> Right now I would make the GC confirm in writing that he does not want it fixed. That way when the inspector makes an issue of it you will have covered your ass.
> 
> As for who's problem it is... Unless you told them ahead of time not to cover the JBs then I would say it is your problem.
> Other subtrades don't know what a junction box looks like and wouldn't care if they did.


I don't agree with that. Insulators I work with know not to cover the can and I did't have to teach them. Do you have to tell them not to spray inside the service panel or the device boxes? Did the GC have to tell them not to spray the vents closed? They, like us have to know how to do their job correctly. If I cut a truss to install a conduit, would it be the carpenters fault?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

kejemere said:


> I'm just shaking my head right now. So I'm finishing up a new house and went to adjust the can lights in the living room and notice spray foam insulation between the can light and the can assembly. I was going to attempt and drop the can light down 5/8 inch so it was flush with the tongue and grove pine that is being installed on the ceiling. But low and behold, the insulators did not put a cover over the cans and then spray them, they just sprayed the whole can light. The home owner is the GC and I mentioned to him the issue and he could care less.
> What would the correct action to take from here be?
> Do I tell the inspector to flag all 30-40 can lights because the junction box is now not accessible?
> Let it go and pray I never have to go back for a can light problem?
> ...


I would call the Inspector and tell him to order the GC to rip them out so you can get a huge extra out of it ,Paid up front..:thumbup:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

backstay said:


> I don't agree with that. Insulators I work with know not to cover the can and I did't have to teach them. Do you have to tell them not to spray inside the service panel or the device boxes? Did the GC have to tell them not to spray the vents closed? They, like us have to know how to do their job correctly. If I cut a truss to install a conduit, would it be the carpenters fault?


A few years ago I installed 60 metal halide cans with fancy chrome trims,,$100 each,The lamps GE were 175 watt pulse start for open fixtures the color had to be perfect,Instead of changing all the tiles the GC hired a painting crew to spray paint the ceiling white.....:whistling2::yes:



Yup each fixture got a second coat..:blink::laughing::laughing:


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

backstay said:


> I don't agree with that. Insulators I work with know not to cover the can and I did't have to teach them. Do you have to tell them not to spray inside the service panel or the device boxes? Did the GC have to tell them not to spray the vents closed? They, like us have to know how to do their job correctly. If I cut a truss to install a conduit, would it be the carpenters fault?


You didn't have to tell them but someone did. It was probably an electrician on a previous job.
It would be prudent, even if insulators should know not to cover JBs, to mention any special considerations required.
I'm not saying that he should have covered the cans himself but a quick conversation beforehand _just to be sure_ would avoided the problem and covered his ass.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

BBS said:


> You didn't have to tell them but someone did. It was probably an electrician on a previous job.
> It would be prudent, even if insulators should know not to cover JBs, to mention any special considerations required.
> I'm not saying that he should have covered the cans himself but a quick conversation beforehand just to be sure would avoided the problem and covered his ass.


If the insulator screwed it up, he's going to have to fix it. Either dig the foam out from around the cans or pay to have them replaced.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

This is an interesting problem. If you had of known spray foam was going to be used, you could have installed vapor boots beforehand. With spray foam being used more often now, it's a question we are going to have to ask.

If there was a drawing that indicated spray foam, then you're on the hook. If not, it's negotiation time. Obviously, something has to be done and, if the GC doesn't want to hear it from you, then it has to come from an inspector.

For the price of cans, it might be quicker and easier to cut out the foam, rip out the old fixtures and put in new ones. Whatever you do, it's going to be an ugly job.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

If in fact it was not the EC's fault, i find the EI's powerless to confront a GC _(or any other entity)_ unless they confront an occupancy permit

and that is highly dependent on legislative demographics.....


~CS~


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## LegacyofTroy (Feb 14, 2011)

Times are changin', remember when it easy!? A solution must be had, and I advise you to come with one first......before HO does, and the trouble calls you ARE gonna get down the road need to addressed now! Tell him and show him.... Also, with the legal issues that could arise later, get some signed documents and photo's, hopefully you got some before cover up..and get some afterwards....plead your case to inspector diligently .....man that really sucks...good luck ,, and speaking of ....I installed a bunch of cans in a new home for this new GC, and they are using spray foam! Everywhere, ext walIs and between floors. best go there tomorrow and see if I have similar problem(hope not)


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## supercrew37365 (Mar 12, 2010)

If they sprayed open cell foam over the cans its not a problem to pull cans out of the foam and remove foam .If they sprayed closed cell foam good luck with getting it out .Closed cell foam is like concrete .


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## AmpsHertz (Jan 30, 2013)

BBS said:


> Right now I would make the GC confirm in writing that he does not want it fixed. That way when the inspector makes an issue of it you will have covered your ass.
> 
> As for who's problem it is... Unless you told them ahead of time not to cover the JBs then I would say it is your problem.
> Other subtrades don't know what a junction box looks like and wouldn't care if they did.





BBS said:


> You didn't have to tell them but someone did. It was probably an electrician on a previous job.
> It would be prudent, even if insulators should know not to cover JBs, to mention any special considerations required.
> I'm not saying that he should have covered the cans himself but a quick conversation beforehand _just to be sure_ would avoided the problem and covered his ass.


Your entire attitude in this thread is a shame, it's based off of today's use of handymen.

Tradesmen should have gone thru an apprenticeship in which they were taught all the in's and out's of the trade. Instead, we hand some guy with no experience a tool and tell him to go to work for $9/hr and then blame someone else when he makes major mistakes. Beautiful...

BTW< the last few jobs that I did I never even saw the insulators. Are we supposed to wait around for every other trade so we an teach them their job? Should the GC be coordinating this?


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

It appears that the spray foam association has standards when it comes to recessed fixtures. I don't have the links but google it. That could be your out.


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

AmpsHertz said:


> Your entire attitude in this thread is a shame, it's based off of today's use of handymen.


It is a shame but it is based on real-world experience. 
I've been in this trade only a short time and already I do not trust other subtrades to do their jobs properly when it affects my work.
The lowest bidder gets the job and this is how things turn out. In this case the problem is made worse by the homeowner choosing to be the GC. They are most likely not knowledgeable about construction and probably very reluctant to spend their own money.

Calling it "his problem" before might not have been the best way to put it. I was responding to the specific question asked. 
It might not be "his problem" or his fault but being the EC it does come to him to address the issue.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

One of the time honored golden rules of construction is, don't F up the _other _guys job.

That doesn't take a GC, Dale Carnigee course ,special training, or being led by the hand

It's common courtesy.

~CS~


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## pudge565 (Dec 8, 2007)

AmpsHertz said:


> Your entire attitude in this thread is a shame, it's based off of today's use of handymen.
> 
> Tradesmen should have gone thru an apprenticeship in which they were taught all the in's and out's of the trade. Instead, we hand some guy with no experience a tool and tell him to go to work for $9/hr and then blame someone else when he makes major mistakes. Beautiful...
> 
> BTW< the last few jobs that I did I never even saw the insulators. Are we supposed to wait around for every other trade so we an teach them their job? Should the GC be coordinating this?


Very true, I am an electrician's helper and have been put on third shift at a major client, given a service van, and no support other than I can call my boss and try to get help. I am expected to fix anything that goes wrong in the facility (that has very ****ty conditions), with very little training, safety or otherwise, I also still get paid peanuts to do this.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

honestly dude, i wouldnt worry about it untill a problem arises... If they call you and tell you the lights are blinking, scratch your head and say.... "hm it would seem that someone voided my warrenty when they spray fomed them shut... " and give them a price to fix it..


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## kejemere (Dec 13, 2011)

Thank you for all of the thoughts and suggestions guys!! At this moment I'm going to leave it as is? I can not imagine having to tear them out. Yes they used close cell foam and it is rock solid. Much less to say that the wire lengths would, or could be to short to make it into a new can light.
On top of the whole mess, the poor sob would have to figure a way to move around the 18-20 inches of blown in insulation that is on top of the whole mess.

I will do my homework and see what I can dig up on the standard practice for spray foam. The company that did the insulation work is rather a large company serving the Fox valley here in WI. I'm going to guess the guys who speak very little English are given a truck and are told to go at it?

Its a shame that we have to deal with things like this in our trade. I think the next step would be to have bright orange stickers made that we can put on top of can lights stating no foam insulation with out a gasket cover of some sort. In two languages so you do not discriminate.

As far as the TP causing problems, we will see. The cans are Halo 6 inch IC/AT cans and I think they will be fine. What does worry me though, what if a can would cause a AFC to have a fault. How the hell is a guy going to open a can junction box to check? 

Also had a light tripping an AFC at a different home today, POS box store junk 3 bulb flush mount light. The factory crimp / wire nut had a crack in the plastic and guess what? it was touching the grounded mounting bracket. three months after install this started happening. Neutral to ground  factory crimp gone bad.jpg


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## kejemere (Dec 13, 2011)

Lighting Fixtures: CertaSpray Closed Cell Foam must not be installed within 76 mm (3") of recessed light​fixtures or other heat sources, unless approved insulated ceiling (IC) light fixtures are used.

Can spray foam insulation be applied directly to electrical wiring? What about installed electrical devices like recessed lights?
Yes. Spray foam insulation can be applied directly to electrical wiring. Properly sized wiring should not experience temperature issues. Recessed lights or other fixtures may require a certain amount of air circulation around them for cooling purposes. For fixtures, consider building a box around the fixture with gypsum wall board (drywall). The spray foam insulation can be applied to the outside of the box.

Be careful how close you place insulation next to a recessed light fixture—unless it is insulation contact (IC) rated—to avoid a fire hazard. See the Lighting section for more information about recessed lights.

The above information is what I found on the web. Thoughts?


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## BBS (Aug 19, 2009)

Your cans are IC rated so the foam should be fine with respect to heat and airflow.

The obstruction of the boxes might be a problem for the inspector.

At this point quote the code book to the GC, make them put it in writing if they don't want it addressed, and leave the job asap.


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