# EGC in pipe



## Dennis Alwon

I believe most people here pull a ground. I don't do much pipe work but I have no issue using set screw. At least I can see if the coupling or connector wasn't tightened.


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## gpop

you call it a ground wire or EGC. I call it a sacrificial pull string. I would rather scrap a few hundred feet of green then fight a fish tape in a conduit that already has wires.


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## eddy current

I have always been one to run an EGC (bond in Canada) in metal pipe, reguardless of what code allows. Most of my experience is in a service van where I’ve seen so many situations where the metal conduit no longer does the job.


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## 99cents

eddy current said:


> I have always been one to run an EGC (bond in Canada) in metal pipe, reguardless of what code allows. Most of my experience is in a service van where I’ve seen so many situations where the metal conduit no longer does the job.


Section 13 says that, if it's a splash n dash, it's okay. If you get paid the green, you pull the green.


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## flyboy

The only place we don't pull an EGC is in threaded conduit, unless it's spec'd or required by code. 
Otherwise, everything else gets one. 

Set screws where permitted and compression where spec'd or required.


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## 460 Delta

Yeah gpop, I’ve used a ground wire as a pull string before myself, but I always used it to pull another ground wire back in with whatever else I pulled in. 
I’ve seen others repurpose a ground wire by phase taping it to a new color.


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## Lone Crapshooter

Our specs require a ground wire. In the petro-chemical business you have corrosion issues that you don't normally have outside. The theory is that as the conduit ages it will develop high resistance at the threaded joints and the ground conductor helped midigate the high resistance of the joints.

LC


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## tmessner

It should be a code requirement!!! We use it many times as a pull wire but it always goes back in along with the new wires.


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## active1

In Chicagoland green wires on branch circuits were rare.
Everything was conduit but a role of green would last over a year.
Mostly for sealtite, pigtails on GFIs, & other misc.
Other areas of the country some forget to tighten setscrews way too much.
Finding a loose set screw was called a 6 pack when you found another guy forgot.
It was a joke really. But the idea is someone messed up, so give another a 6 pack to cover for them.

Seems like most electricians that don't study much just think it's a code requirement.
Not as bad as the guy that calls himself a journeyman and pulls a green for every circuit.


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## John Valdes

gpop said:


> you call it a ground wire or EGC. I call it a sacrificial pull string. I would rather scrap a few hundred feet of green then fight a fish tape in a conduit that already has wires.



I always pull the EGC back in with whatever I needed to add.


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## Southeast Power

active1 said:


> In Chicagoland green wires on branch circuits were rare.
> Everything was conduit but a role of green would last over a year.
> Mostly for sealtite, pigtails on GFIs, & other misc.
> Other areas of the country some forget to tighten setscrews way too much.
> Finding a loose set screw was called a 6 pack when you found another guy forgot.
> It was a joke really. But the idea is someone messed up, so give another a 6 pack to cover for them.
> 
> Seems like most electricians that don't study much just think it's a code requirement.
> Not as bad as the guy that calls himself a journeyman and pulls a green for every circuit.


When I was coming up in the trade Miami was a pipe local too.
To this day it hurts my soul to pull a green wire into a run of EMT. To me it advertises that your pipe work was sloppy and you had to pull in a ground wire.
If the job specs require it, I pull one in just due to the fact the client paid for it.


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## splatz

I trust the set screws more than the compression fittings. The compression seem to me far more likely to not be fully seated or to jam and seem like they are tight when they are not. 

I have heard about a local scoundrel, handsome devil, plays by his own rules, when he can get away with it he uses his preferred set screw connectors in damp locations with the screws down because that's really perfectly freaking fine.


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## gpop

John Valdes said:


> I always pull the EGC back in with whatever I needed to add.


I dont pay for the wire so i always replace the green. One of the perks of being a industrial electrician is that no one is bean counting the wire.


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## MDShunk

I think it was the US Iron and Steel institute that did a study with Georgia Tech that showed that properly installed conduit is actually a superior EGC over the copper wire that would otherwise be installed.


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## Southeast Power

splatz said:


> I trust the set screws more than the compression fittings. The compression seem to me far more likely to not be fully seated or to jam and seem like they are tight when they are not.
> 
> I have heard about a local scoundrel, handsome devil, plays by his own rules, when he can get away with it he uses his preferred set screw connectors in damp locations with the screws down because that's really perfectly freaking fine.


I read an article in ECM concerning a post California earthquake. Seems like steel set screw fittings were the only type without significant failures. It might be the way they indent into the pipe.
Die cast cracked in half and the steel compression type just let go. It's very possible they were not properly installed but enough to call them out as a fail with average installation.
I remember being on some demo jobs and was always happy to find compression fittings as they can be unscrewed 10' away.

We had a die cast manufacturer call me out on my loath of them. He wanted to convince me they were superior in conductivity but for as many inconveniently broken and even melted ones I have had to waste time with, I would be happy to never touch another one. 
Also, they jumped up in price quite a bit for a while.


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## Southeast Power

MDShunk said:


> I think it was the US Iron and Steel institute that did a study with Georgia Tech that showed that properly installed conduit is actually a superior EGC over the copper wire that would otherwise be installed.


Maybe even better when tie wired to the steel bar joists 
. :smile:


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## MDShunk

Does anyone still make indent fittings? I have a couple 1/2 and 3/4 indenter tools kicking around someplace. Maybe even a 1". I haven't checked in years to see if anyone makes them still. You can't get them sumbeeches apart. I'd bet they'd survive an earthquake just fine.


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## Southeast Power

MDShunk said:


> Does anyone still make indent fittings? I have a couple 1/2 and 3/4 indenter tools kicking around someplace. Maybe even a 1". I haven't checked in years to see if anyone makes them still. You can't get them sumbeeches apart. I'd bet they'd survive an earthquake just fine.


Were they a flea market find or did you have the opportunity to use them out in the wild?


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## MDShunk

Southeast Power said:


> Were they a flea market find or did you have the opportunity to use them out in the wild?


No, it was an honest to goodness job when I was in my 20's. They weren't my indenter tools but I ended up with them cleaning up loose ends at the end of the job in my POV and they just never made it back to the tool crib. Wasn't my intention to steal them, but I guess that's effectively what happened.


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## splatz

MDShunk said:


> I think it was the US Iron and Steel institute that did a study with Georgia Tech that showed that properly installed conduit is actually a superior EGC over the copper wire that would otherwise be installed.


I thought that someone on here @brian john maybe? measuring amps on EGC and conduit in parallel clearing a fault and the conduit carried more than half, indicating it was the superior conductor. 

Now me, I am a belt and suspenders type, that occasional box you see dangling by the wires from the pipe, or pipe that got brushed by a forklift load and knocked apart, that makes me want to see a green wire in the pipe.


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## tmessner

I have seen many locknuts that were "properly seated" burn through also, so fitting type and material are not always relevant either.


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## 460 Delta

gpop said:


> I dont pay for the wire so i always replace the green. One of the perks of being a industrial electrician is that no one is bean counting the wire.


I'm industrial too, but I always roll up the old wire and reuse it on another job, yeah I have a tendency to reuse everything until there is nothing left to reuse. It's just the way I was raised I suppose.


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## CTshockhazard

I will use the raceway as an EGC every chance I get.


Oh, and I've never seen anyone pull in twice as many hots or neutrals 'just in case'. :biggrin:


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## gpop

CTshockhazard said:


> I will use the raceway as an EGC every chance I get.
> 
> 
> Oh, and I've never seen anyone pull in twice as many hots or neutrals 'just in case'.


You will see it on engineering drawings all day long. My record so far is 14 neutrals from to mcc to a button panel in the field.

Asked if i could just install one and a buss. They rejected the idea so they got what they asked for.


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## CTshockhazard

gpop said:


> You will see it on engineering drawings all day long. My record so far is 14 neutrals from to mcc to a button panel in the field.
> 
> Asked if i could just install one and a buss. They rejected the idea so they got what they asked for.



Sure we've all seen that, but have you ever seen it on just a whim?


There's a big difference between a spec and an industrywide farce, I mean standard.


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## eddy current

CTshockhazard said:


> Sure we've all seen that, but have you ever seen it on just a whim?
> 
> 
> There's a big difference between a spec and an industrywide farce, I mean standard.


I worked for an EC for a long time that did a lot of work in the same 10 to 15 buildings. We always ran extra conductors in those building because we did all the work in those buildings. Every tenant fit up, every renovation and all the service work. I was on the service side and would always call the Forman to find out where he left me spare circuits from the last Reno.


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## Gnome

CTshockhazard said:


> Oh, and I've never seen anyone pull in twice as many hots or neutrals 'just in case'. :biggrin:



People notice when the hot or neutral to a device gets interrupted; no one notices the EGC is broken till someone gets shocked (if then).


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## active1

MDShunk said:


> Does anyone still make indent fittings? I have a couple 1/2 and 3/4 indenter tools kicking around someplace. Maybe even a 1". I haven't checked in years to see if anyone makes them still. You can't get them sumbeeches apart. I'd bet they'd survive an earthquake just fine.


I still seen them in the back of a catalog a few years ago, believe it was a Bridgeport.
Had to do a double take because I couldn't believe it was still available.
Maybe they are still trying to get rid of old stock from the 80's.
That was the worst. Always came apart when you're working down the run.
But if you wanted to take it apart, that's the fitting that will put up a fight.


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## active1

Southeast Power said:


> When I was coming up in the trade Miami was a pipe local too.
> To this day it hurts my soul to pull a green wire into a run of EMT. To me it advertises that your pipe work was sloppy and you had to pull in a ground wire.
> If the job specs require it, I pull one in just due to the fact the client paid for it.


I feel the same way.
In Vegas many think in terms of MC cable.
Cut & splice every wire in each j-box.
Except some never bond the conduit & boxes.
Then they will not combine all EC.
Keep them separate like neutrals.
Really sad some people have a poor understanding of grounding.

Lot of the conduit run is just a straight stick to get to a J box above the ceiling, then it gets roped in MC.

I gave up fighting & just pull the green.

It seemed like in the past branch shorts to ground on conduit EG only would have a lower ark compared to the copper wire & conduit.
I know we are taught to get a low resistance to ground.
But it seems like some resistance of steel conduit & fittings lowers the ark level bat extends the trip time slightly.


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## farlsincharge

If it involves a device or the conduit is at a level where it can be touched (abused) by the average joe under normal circumstances it gets a green.

Things like lighting that are out of reach and the average joe has no business messing with, do not.


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## CTshockhazard

eddy current said:


> I worked for an EC for a long time that did a lot of work in the same 10 to 15 buildings. We always ran extra conductors in those building because we did all the work in those buildings. Every tenant fit up, every renovation and all the service work. I was on the service side and would always call the Forman to find out where he left me spare circuits from the last Reno.



How many of those were connected in parallel 'just in case'? 



I can understand his motivation, but he could easily have been screwed out of his initial investment for those labor savings down the road. And that only made sense to do if he actually charged out the labor for pulling them in on the return trips.


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## CTshockhazard

Gnome said:


> People notice when the hot or neutral to a device gets interrupted; no one notices the EGC is broken till someone gets shocked (if then).



If there was data showing the need for this added safety, the code would require an EGC in all metal raceways.


Imma start design of my Ground Loss Detection Receptacles, but I'll need to get that rammed through CMP No5 as I have no legitimate reason for it to be required. :biggrin:


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## MechanicalDVR

CTshockhazard said:


> If there was data showing the need for this added safety, the code would require an EGC in all metal raceways.
> 
> 
> Imma start design of my Ground Loss Detection Receptacles, but I'll need to get that rammed through CMP No5 as *I have no legitimate reason for it to be required.* :biggrin:


If there is enough money in the devices to be sold it could easily make the code just like another unproven device...


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## CTshockhazard

MechanicalDVR said:


> If there is enough money in the devices to be sold it could easily make the code just like another unproven device...



Let's do it, you want in??? 



Of course, if we did manage to do it, the good folks here would disown us. :vs_laugh:


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## eddy current

CTshockhazard said:


> How many of those were connected in parallel 'just in case'?
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand his motivation, but he could easily have been screwed out of his initial investment for those labor savings down the road. And that only made sense to do if he actually charged out the labor for pulling them in on the return trips.


Labour savings? It cost nothing to run an extra set of conductors in a conduit that your already pulling wires into. And the cost of the wires is so minimal, it’s good practice. Not on a new build, that’s different. I’m talking reno’s In an existing building. Not every conduit run, only the ones that made sense. Like a conduit from the electrical room out to the tenant space. We would run one full set extra (red,black,blue,white) 10 awg not connected to anything. 


Makes more sense when you realize we got all the work in those buildings. ALL of it, every job went to us.


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## MechanicalDVR

CTshockhazard said:


> Let's do it, you want in???
> 
> 
> 
> *Of course, if we did manage to do it, the good folks here would disown us.* :vs_laugh:


And with good reason!


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## 460 Delta

At a job I had a few years back, I was the electrician for their surface mines (sand and gravel) and all motors were to have full size grounding wires beginning to end. MSHA requires ground loop testing to test the resistance of the ground conductor annually. I got in the habit of a ground wire and never really got out of it.


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## MTW

Not only do I run a ground inside the pipe, I ty-rap one to the outside as well.


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## 460 Delta

MTW said:


> Not only do I run a ground inside the pipe, I ty-rap one to the outside as well.


Excellent idea! Do you use a bare wire on galvanized and insulated on pvc?


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## active1

active1 said:


> I still seen them in the back of a catalog a few years ago, believe it was a Bridgeport.
> Had to do a double take because I couldn't believe it was still available.
> Maybe they are still trying to get rid of old stock from the 80's.
> That was the worst. Always came apart when you're working down the run.
> But if you wanted to take it apart, that's the fitting that will put up a fight.


It's Raco that has the indent fittings.
Sill available at HD.
Wow, only $124 for a 50 pack of 1/2" connectors.
I always thought the only advantage was they were cheaper.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/RACO-EMT-1-2-in-Indenter-Connector-50-Pack-1992/203637533


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## MTW

460 Delta said:


> Excellent idea! Do you use a bare wire on galvanized and insulated on pvc?


Yes, and I spiral it all the way around too. Wiremold is a bit tricky but I have it perfected by now.


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## flyboy

MTW said:


> Yes, and I spiral it all the way around too. Wiremold is a bit tricky *but I have it perfected by now.*


Yeah...right.


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## CTshockhazard

MTW said:


> Not only do I run a ground inside the pipe, I ty-rap one to the outside as well.



Those Ty-Raps better be f'n listed!


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## tmessner

CTshockhazard said:


> Those Ty-Raps better be f'n listed!


As an egc support or a insulated cable support, food grade, uv resistant??? :vs_laugh:


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## sbrn33

I do most of the time. In a steel building it is just plain stupid though. 
In general grounding is completely overrated.


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## gpop

I work in wet food grade areas and ive seen people shocked on pvc conduit so im more than willing to add extra grounds


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## gnuuser

sbrn33 said:


> I do most of the time. In a steel building it is just plain stupid though.
> In general grounding is completely overrated.


I can agree with this but its a matter of whats required!
If it calls for it in the plans it gets done.
I have seen conduit get knocked apart when bumped by forklift drivers and fastened to wood partitions thus breaking a ground path so yes we do run a ground conductor in conduit.


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