# AFCI Breakers



## mjjg92 (Jan 19, 2012)

In New Jersey, going by the 2011 code is it required to install afci breakers if you are doing a Service Upgrade. I am not adding any circuits ,just changing the panel ,meter pan and service cable.
Thanks


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

mjjg92 said:


> In New Jersey, going by the 2011 code is it required to install afci breakers if you are doing a Service Upgrade. I am not adding any circuits ,just changing the panel ,meter pan and service cable.
> Thanks


This is not in the NEC.. where did you get it from.. :blink:


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## gnxtc2 (Feb 21, 2011)

mjjg92 said:


> In New Jersey, going by the 2011 code is it required to install afci breakers if you are doing a Service Upgrade. I am not adding any circuits ,just changing the panel ,meter pan and service cable.
> Thanks


No ^^^^^^

Depending on where you are working the AHJ might make you put in double pole breakers on 3-wire circuits. 

Also look up the Rehab Code in NJ.

Billy T.
[email protected]


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

Anytime any circuit in any type of installation or environment is changed every thing on that circuit has to meet afci requirements, so further more if your dealing with an older panel like federal pacific, if you cannot find an arc fault breaker and as they do not make arc fault plugs, by code you have to change out the entire panel board, this is a very hot topic in continuing edjucation classes right now


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DAMurphy said:


> Anytime any circuit in any type of installation or environment is changed every thing on that circuit has to meet afci requirements, so further more if your dealing with an older panel like federal pacific, if you cannot find an arc fault breaker and as they do not make arc fault plugs, by code you have to change out the entire panel board, this is a very hot topic in continuing edjucation classes right now


Note even close :no:


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mjjg92 said:


> In New Jersey, going by the 2011 code is it required to install afci breakers if you are doing a Service Upgrade. I am not adding any circuits ,just changing the panel ,meter pan and service cable.
> Thanks


http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/alerts/pdfs/rehab_2008nec_correction_ltr.pdf

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/codes/publications/pdf_ccc/2010_vol_22_no4_w.pdf [see page 5 ]



NJ DCA said:


> ....when an existing service panel is changed or upgraded, no AFCI is required.


I realize that document is dated [ October 20, 2009 (UPDATED February 3, 2010) ], but I believe it to still be true.

My belief is based on NJ's amended acceptance of the 2011 NEC [http://www.nj.gov/dca/divisions/codes/codreg/pdf_rule_proposals/p2012_009_5_23_3_16.pdf] which is substantially the same as the accepted and amended 2008 edition in regards to AFCI protection


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

I would like to direct your attention to your code book (2011)

406.4(d)

(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a
receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires
arc-fault circuit interrupter protection as specified
elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
outlet shall be one of the following:
(1) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter
receptacle
(2) A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit
type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle
(3) A receptacle protected by a listed combination type
arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

DAMurphy said:


> I would like to direct your attention to your code book (2011)
> 
> 406.4(d)
> 
> ...


Sounds like if you change the device, not the panel


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DAMurphy said:


> I would like to direct your attention to your code book (2011)



I'd like to direct your attention to my previous post where I indicated that NJ has amended the 2011 NEC.

Regardless of what the NFPA publishes, it does not become "law" until accepted. NJ has accepted the 2011 NEC with amendments.
You should read 90.4 :whistling2:

You might even think your State has swallowed the entire 2011 NEC hook-line-and sinker...and you might even be correct, but you might also be wrong [again] but we won't know for sure until you indicate which State you are from.


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

Yes that is correct, but have you ever seen a afci breaker? I haven't so you would have to buy the breaker so my next question is have you seen a afci breaker for a federal pacific panel, I have looked and have not found one. So the theory is if someone has a defective plug with a FP panel board you would have to replace the whole panel to stay in regulation of the code book


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

And the reason this has come to my attention was the instructor of my continuing Ed class had to get special permission on a room remodel, they tried to nail him on this. My only discussion is what the code and my personal experience is


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

DAMurphy said:


> Yes that is correct, but have you ever seen a afci breaker? I haven't so you would have to buy the breaker so my next question is have you seen a afci breaker for a federal pacific panel, I have looked and have not found one. So the theory is if someone has a defective plug with a FP panel board you would have to replace the whole panel to stay in regulation of the code book


Yes I understand but the the OP asked about a service upgrade, not changing devices


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## BurtiElectric (Jan 11, 2011)

DAMurphy said:


> And the reason this has come to my attention was the instructor of my continuing Ed class had to get special permission on a room remodel, they tried to nail him on this. My only discussion is what the code and my personal experience is


If I'm going to do wiring in someone's house and they have a federal panel or a fuse box, I sell them a new panel


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

Well going out on a limb here but you could argue that the service upgrade has an effect on every branch circuit in the panel therefore requiring arc fault protection. In the dfw Texas area pretty much anything u touch has to he replaced with arc fault they are very strict on this however if your ahj isn't take advantage


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DAMurphy said:


> So the theory is if someone has a defective plug with a FP panel board you would have to replace the whole panel to stay in regulation of the code book


So someone that wants/needs a device replaced for under $100, now needs to spend over $1000 on a new panel ? :blink:

You must be making serious bank.


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## DAMurphy (Dec 19, 2012)

That was the humor behind what the inspector was originally asking, it was a joke that u change your sweet old next door neighbors plug for a 6 pack and before you know it your out 2000


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## FastFokker (Sep 18, 2012)

Why would you not want to up sell the customer on safety? 

Couple bucks more in your pocket and brings the customer into code.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Because you'd be selling them_ false_ security based on a _belief _system FF

~CS~


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

DAMurphy said:


> Anytime any circuit in any type of installation or environment is changed every thing on that circuit has to meet afci requirements, so further more if your dealing with an older panel like federal pacific, if you cannot find an arc fault breaker and as they do not make arc fault plugs, by code you have to change out the entire panel board, this is a very hot topic in continuing edjucation classes right now



Code section please......


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## mbednarik (Oct 10, 2011)

Not until Jan1 2014.


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## KennethKyle (Dec 21, 2012)

I've seen cases where arc fault protected circuits would trip every time u turned the light switch on so why would engineers design something that is gonna fail can anybody explain that because when contacts make there is an arc


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Planned Obsolesence Kenny....

~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

DAMurphy said:


> So the theory is if someone has a defective plug with a FP panel board you would have to replace the whole panel to stay in regulation of the code book


No way, you are way off the mark here.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

maybe the theory of sales ..... ~CS~


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## dogleg (Dec 22, 2008)

Here we only install an arc fault breaker on a service re-build if we "extend a circiut" or add one .So basically if the wire can make it in the new panel it does not have to be on an arc fault.However That being said sometimes it is worth it to install an arc fault if the wiring in the house doesn't look appear to be within code(people stapleing lamp cord across a doorway,under carpet etc, or looks like a bad original install(HO,handy man etc) It gives me a sense of security that at least it is going to protect the circiut from fire.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

dogleg said:


> Here we only install an arc fault breaker on a service re-build if we "extend a circuit" or add one .So basically if the wire can make it in the new panel it does not have to be on an arc fault.


In my personal opinion that is a correct application of the code.


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## dogleg (Dec 22, 2008)

A little off topic but Today I have to find out why everytime I turn on a light switch on a particular circiut, the arc fault trips.Doesn't matter what light any one of them will trip it.There are about 6 lights on the circiut and if you leave them off the afci will hold.The minute any one of the light switches turns on the afci trips.I'm sure all the switch legs are not bad and the lights were hung by experienced electricians.I'm leaning towards a neutral touching a ground but that should trip immediately ,the light switches should not affect that?


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## denny3992 (Jul 12, 2010)

I dont think itll trip till current passes onto the grnd... Thar might be ur prob,


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

dogleg said:


> A little off topic but Today I have to find out why everytime I turn on a light switch on a particular circiut, the arc fault trips.Doesn't matter what light any one of them will trip it.There are about 6 lights on the circiut and if you leave them off the afci will hold.The minute any one of the light switches turns on the afci trips.I'm sure all the switch legs are not bad and the lights were hung by experienced electricians.I'm leaning towards a neutral touching a ground but that should trip immediately ,the light switches should not affect that?


 

I've seen many times, a neutral to ground fault that does not trip the AFCI until current flows on the neutral, and yours sounds the same.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

shared noodles will trip 'em ......~CS~


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