# Standard Practice/Duty



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I’m wondering why the electrician is at fault for fixing the wiring. If the furnace was the issue, shouldn’t the furnace be to blame? If you dug into an underground line. I came and fixed it. And then you did it two more times until electrocuting yourself, would that be my fault?


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## aidonius (Jul 10, 2018)

Two questions:
1) Did the installation of the electrician follow the code and was done in a workmanlike manner etc.? Aka did the electrician do their job as an electrician properly. This is unclear.

2) You make it sound like the problem was "fixed" by replacing components but not fixing the actual problem and this "fix" was repeated no less than three times. Is this what happened?

It does make me wonder why the furnace wasn't fixed because it sounds like a serious safety hazard by itself. Sure you can argue that once the furnace was found to be the problem the electrician shouldn't have knowingly reinstalled wires/conduit but it seems to me that the furnace could have set any number of things near it on fire. 
You'd think after three close calls the problem would have been fixed but apparently not. It sounds like there are bigger problems than whether the electrician is competent.


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

aidonius said:


> Two questions:
> 1) Did the installation of the electrician follow the code and was done in a workmanlike manner etc.? Aka did the electrician do their job as an electrician properly. This is unclear.
> 
> 2) You make it sound like the problem was "fixed" by replacing components but not fixing the actual problem and this "fix" was repeated no less than three times. Is this what happened?
> ...


This is 100% on the money.

who made the call to keep repairing the electrical system? That is the big question?!.

is a residential situation?

Is this a commercial situation?

sounds like a liability finger pointing fight now!


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Why or how were you tasked for this? You might be opening yourself up to the lawsuits if you say the wrong things. I would think a crack in the furnace would have been fixed first. Gas or oil? Furnace or boiler? Did the original electrician know about the cracked furnace and did he tell someone or was it not obvious and unknown to him? So many questions to give an objective answer. If the electrician did not know about the defective furnace then I am with Backstay on this one.


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

Johnny821 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been tasked with a matter


Are you a lawyer or an electrician?


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

If you can set fire to a conduit then the point of failure was not at the conduit but in the panel that refused to clear the fault. 
If the conduit was heated to the point of setting fire to something in the surrounding area that means there was something flammable in the area along with the conduit. Using that logic the split in the boiler would have been able to set that on fire. Wouldn't be the first time someones set wet / damp boots or clothing on or next to a boiler and caused a fire.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

*I dont believe the electrician is to blame for anything.* 
the faulty furnace caused three problems that he fixed properly each time
why was he called 3 separate times to fix the wiring and the furnace is still not fixed?

if these are trouble calls to a residence or business then the occupants and or owners are to blame
you know for a fact they did ask him what was the problem each time

you know for a fact the elects fix was costing way less than a new heating unit
*the cheapest repair was the owners call*, not the elects

*the elect was not the owner of the furnace or the property*
the elect had no authority or responsibility to decide what to repair when
he may have even been told that "the new unit is coming, we just dont want the tenant freezing before then"

to the original poster
you have been sent on a _witch hunt_, dont burn innocent ppl at the stake
just because sh*t rolls down hill
it doesnt follow that responsibility also rolls downhill

that responsibility is way above that elects paygrade


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

Johnny821 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been tasked with a matter to determine if someone violated any NEC standards or at least standard practice within our field. To keep this simple and brief, an electrician was called for a furnace not working. It was determined the wiring in the conduit above the furnace supplying it shorted out due to a crack in the furnace allowing significant heat to escape and attack the conduit above. The wires were pulled out and replaced. Days later, same issue; wires again pulled out and replaced. Third time, within the same week, electrician replaces conduit and wire because wire was welded to the conduit inside. Fourth time the place burns down with witnesses reporting seeing and hearing significant arcing in the area of the conduit above the furnace and then a fire started in that area.
> 
> ...


I don’t understand why the furnace is defective and someone fixated on a conduit. Even if it started a fire that’s an indication the breaker failed. Even then though large loads often don’t trigger breakers to trip and arcing faults in particular aren’t easily detected. Plus the special expensive breakers can’t tell the difference between power electronics used in high efficiency furnaces and arcing faults so they would not be required or even a good idea.

As far as a conduit above a furnace chapter 3 is clear on what the allowable uses and not allowable uses are for various wiring methods. “Conduit” is not very descriptive. There are several types. It could be PVC, ABS, galvanized, aluminum, IMC, EMT, and so forth. These are all “conduit” but with different rules. 

Code cannot replace common sense but you can do a lot of poor installation practices that are still legal. And the HVAC guys can come in after rough in and violate Code. And very few things in Code are retroactive. What was legal in 1930 is still legal today because most Code requirements are based on whatever the Code is when it is installed. Making things retroactive would be a huge business for the electricians but very expensive for building owners. That would be equivalent to computer software going obsolete every few years.

There are high temperature cable types that tolerate hundreds of degrees that are often used in certain areas around burners as an INTERNAL component but they are all classified as “AWM” which stands for appliance wiring media. None are Code approved for general wiring. These would all be part of the “furnace” itself which carries a Listjng for the furnace as an assembly. If the conduit follows allowable uses and is installed correctly by Code you don’t have a leg to stand on. For obvious reasons as well furnaces should not normally get so hot on the outside of the enclosure that it melts or burns wiring.

I don’t know specifics but it doesn’t sound like there is a Code violation here on its face. It sounds like the furnace was defective. On the one of my house there is an anti-roll out temperature switch that triggers if for some reason you get positive pressure and the heat comes out of the firebox but that’s a common issue with gas packs if say mud dobbers block the exhaust flue or someone mounted the exhaust stack incorrectly. Sure this isn’t an issue with the HVAC installer using the wrong way to install it or simply a maintenance issue or various safeties disabled? All those pressure switches and temperature switches are there for a reason.

Another example that happened to me with a gas pack is that the stainless steel heat exchanger tubing rotted out after ten years. When it was replaced the HVAC installer didn’t get it back into the rear supports so it dropped over a season of operation. Then over summer cooling it filled with condensation so I would get a roll out and burn all the wiring up. As long as I used a shop vac to purge the water when switching to heating it was fine which gave me a couple years extra before paying to replace the whole thing. But again…huge install error here. I lived with it. I could have pushed back on the installer but at that point the court costs exceed the equipment costs and I really didn’t want that guy working on my house any more. So I self insured.

And that still doesn’t absolve the homeowner of maintaining the furnace itself. They can and do get old and fail. Required maintenance doesn’t get done. I shut it down immediately and eventually cycled contractors when I had issues. We spent a couple very cold days with space heaters and gas logs.

Plus what is the electrician supposed to do? The HVAC guy is not licensed to run wiring. It needs repaired. The electrician can repair the wiring but then says to get an HVAC tech. Homeowner just lets it run since now the furnace “works”. At best the electrician could have left it disconnected. It’s not a situation where you refuse work. At best it’s an obvious problem of failing to diagnose the root cause. A lot of residential electricians unfortunately are parts changers, not repair techs.


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## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

Let’s assume the conductor insulation was rated for 90 degrees C. That furnace must have been an inferno.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

99cents said:


> Let’s assume the conductor insulation was rated for 90 degrees C. That furnace must have been an inferno.


yeah ... that is only 10*C short of boiling , so it was hotter than that to melt it
.... nobody noticed all of that heat pouring out ... ?


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## Bourbon County (Aug 19, 2020)

It's very fortunate that no one died from carbon monoxide poisoning before or during the fire.

If you haven't already done so, notify your liability insurance carrier of the situation. Provide them any documents and photos you have from the job. Be assured the property insurance carrier on this property will do a thorough investigation of the fire, your insurance company has the same rights to discovery as they do.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Ditto most of the above posts.

It sounds like the crack in the furnace caused the fire, not arcing inside a conduit. 

I always look at it like this: An electrical fault alone cannot start a fire unless there is something flammable involved. Metal isnt flammable. The conduit itself would have had to heat up enough to ignite something flammable near it. That seems a lot less likely than the heat escaping from the crack in the furnace igniting something flammable near it. Theoretically someone from the fire dept should be investigating what actually started the fire, but more often than not, if electricity was involved, they'll just tag it as "electrical" and move on.

As an electrician I would NOT replace the wires a second time because it's clear the furnace is not safe. I would refuse, and chances are the owner would hire someone else to do it. But I dont fault another electrician for doing it. Our job is not to determine if HVAC is safe or not.


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## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

What was the electrician tasked to do? If getting the furnace running then he accomplished the task. Or was he sent in to repair the problem and solve the issue.

I will admit that the second time the furnace went down the light bulb should have gone off.
But with out knowing the task orders you can not make a determination. 
There is also the possibility that the electrician was not familar with heat ratings of wire and what happens when they are exceeded. This is something I live with every day, temps where I live can be 114F on a clear day.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

dspiffy said:


> Ditto most of the above posts.
> 
> It sounds like the crack in the furnace caused the fire, not arcing inside a conduit.
> 
> ...


Boilers cold as it has no power so first wire pull is a bad wire. Second time you would wonder what messed the wire up and guess that the conduit had a burr due to bad reaming and vibration was cutting the wire.

Unless the conduit was black and blue would you guess it was a conduit problem or guess that the owner was dumb enough to run a boiler with a split in it. (remember the boilers cold when you get there).


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

^^^ cold boiler every time he was there, how was he supposed to know if nobody told him
and how could he know there was Not a boiler tech coming to fix it ?


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Somehow we morphed from furnace to boiler, whatever.

There are two parts that can get that hot on a furnace. One is the combustion chamber/heat exchanger which is inside an outer metal jacket. I can't see how a "crack" in that portion of the furnace could get anywhere close to wiring in conduit to cause a failure. 

The other part is the venting or "chimney" as most call it. Cracked venting would gas everyone in the house.

Something is off with the story as the OP has put it forth. Perhaps some more information is required.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

Almost Retired said:


> ^^^ cold boiler every time he was there, how was he supposed to know if nobody told him
> and how could he know there was Not a boiler tech coming to fix it ?


i know how home owners and work orders go
_Very probably_ he had no idea there was a problem with the furnace
so he replaced the conduit the second time there, thinking it was still his problem
not knowing it was the furnace


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Could the owner of the building be a slum lord looking for a freebie or someone to sue? As others said, not enough information.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

kb1jb1 said:


> Could the owner of the building be a slum lord looking for a freebie or someone to sue? As others said, not enough information.


you could actually be right
that would explain the witch hunt
service co. is getting sued


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

kb1jb1 said:


> Could the owner of the building be a slum lord looking for a freebie or someone to sue? As others said, not enough information.


There are a couple things that don't add up in the original story, I would want to hear all sides.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

gpop said:


> Boilers cold as it has no power so first wire pull is a bad wire. Second time you would wonder what messed the wire up and guess that the conduit had a burr due to bad reaming and vibration was cutting the wire.
> 
> Unless the conduit was black and blue would you guess it was a conduit problem or guess that the owner was dumb enough to run a boiler with a split in it. (remember the boilers cold when you get there).





Almost Retired said:


> ^^^ cold boiler every time he was there, how was he supposed to know if nobody told him
> and how could he know there was Not a boiler tech coming to fix it ?


Great points. I was assuming, based on the OP's post, that the issue was KNOWN and the electrician was TOLD about it.

Hindsight is always 2020.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dspiffy said:


> Great points. I was assuming, based on the OP's post, that the issue was KNOWN and the electrician was TOLD about it.
> 
> Hindsight is always 2020.


I sometimes wish I had 2020 hindsight.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

edit


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## paulengr (Oct 8, 2017)

dspiffy said:


> Ditto most of the above posts.
> 
> It sounds like the crack in the furnace caused the fire, not arcing inside a conduit.
> 
> ...


Small point here. Our job is to install equipment suitable for the environment in which it is installed. If HO refuses to make any effort towards repair then either move the conduit or don’t replace. You could derate if you know conditions but a defect can get worse quickly.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

paulengr said:


> Small point here. Our job is to install equipment suitable for the environment in which it is installed. If HO refuses to make any effort towards repair then either move the conduit or don’t replace. You could derate if you know conditions but a defect can get worse quickly.


The other posters corrected me with what I thought was a great point: Since the furnace wouldnt have been working at any given time of the electrician's arrival, they may have no way to know it wasnt a suitable environment. The repeated failures could be attributed to something other than the malfunctioning furnace.

The biggest question, I think, is who knew the furnace was cracked and when.


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dspiffy said:


> The other posters corrected me with what I thought was a great point: Since the furnace wouldnt have been working at any given time of the electrician's arrival, they may have no way to know it wasnt a suitable environment. The repeated failures could be attributed to something other than the malfunctioning furnace.
> 
> The biggest question, I think, is who knew the furnace was cracked and when.


The million dollar question. Who and when.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Would love to learn more about what actually happened. Did it make the local news?


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

dspiffy said:


> Would love to learn more about what actually happened. Did it make the local news?


Me to. We never hear about the end results for many stories.


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## Johnny821 (Apr 24, 2011)

-


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

My brother works on residential boilers and in one of the classes he was told that if he sees a dangerous condition which the home owner does not want to fix then he should remove it from service. Can you let us know what happened at a later time or is this going to be in litigation for a while? If the home owner or electrician was aware of the crack. 
Years ago I use to get a monthly bulletin called " The Legal Monitor " which had stories and Legal matters that effect the construction trades. It was very informative.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

Who turned the furnace on? 

Did the electrician install new wiring and leave the furnace turned off?



Johnny821 said:


> *I've been tasked *with a matter to determine if someone violated any *NEC standards* or at least standard practice *within our field*.
> 
> *an electrician was called*......*Fourth time the place burns down*
> 
> The *specifics surrounding the installation itself are not what I'm looking for*, that* I already know what was and wasn't violated*, I'm just looking at the *standard of practice and ethics* side of this, *even if not in the code book*.


You're definitely not a lawyer 

I can't even figure out what you're asking. You want confirmation for your analysis without providing greater context? Why don't you invite the electrician to this thread. I think he could be helpful determining the root cause of the fire.


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## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

Johnny821 said:


> that is exactly the answer I am looking for.


You picked 2 answers you liked out of all that posted? 2 that were what you are looking for? Why even ask then?

Do you work for the government?


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Johnny821 said:


> Everyone, I appreciate the replies, but SWDweller and dspiffy, thank you for your responses; that is exactly the answer I am looking for. Please focus on my question of is this acceptable to any of you? I already know exactly where and exactly how the fire started, and for those wondering, I am not a lawyer and was not involved with this incident; I am a fully licensed and insured electrician, and have been in the trade for over 24 years. I cannot go into more details, but all I'd like to know is in your personal opinion, would you, as the sole electrician, having knowledge of the malfunctioning furnace, and may or maybe not had notified the building owner of the issue, would you have continued to make the repairs? And just in case I missed it in the NEC, is anyone aware of any standard we as electricians must follow that may apply to this issue, which I believe for many of us would simply be common sense.


Yes, I would have still done the job knowing there was a problem with the HVAC system, but I would communicate to the owner and tenant (both) the condition contributing to the situation. 

I would do this verbally and written on my invoice and in the form of an email. I would be very clear in those communications the conditions as I see them and advise both the tenant and landlord not to energize the HVAC system until it's repaired. 

I might also put a piece of red tape over the emergency switch in the off position and take some pictures. If I felt the situation warranted it, I might blind copy the building inspector and/or the fire inspector.

And no, I'm concerned about liability. That's what I have insurance for.


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

Johnny821 said:


> And just in case I missed it in the NEC, is anyone aware of any standard we as electricians must follow that may apply to this issue, which I believe for many of us would simply be common sense.


National Electrical Code Summary: Article 90 -- Introduction. 90.1 has four subdivisions: (A) *says the purpose of the NEC is the practical safeguarding of people and property "from hazards arising from the use of electricity."*


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## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

BleedingLungsMurphy said:


> Who turned the furnace on?
> 
> Did the electrician install new wiring and leave the furnace turned off?
> 
> ...


I think the OP is trying to ask a specific question with out asking it because of pending litigation. Using our input for potential accusations maybe. Curious who hired him. The building owner, the insurance company, or a government agency?


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

kb1jb1 said:


> Curious who hired him. The building owner, the insurance company, or a government agency?


I could be way off but it seems like a homeowner trying to do his own investigation and blame someone else for their failure to fix the real issue. I would guess the electrician that was there did in fact note the issues on his invoice and it looks like OP is trying to wash their hands from any liability. A lawyer or any professional would never come to a forum like this. They would hire professionals and pay for their services. Private investigators, engineers, electricians, fire inspectors, etc. 

If a homeowner were to ignore an electrician or shop around to get something fixed (4 times) in a short period of time before a fire they could be liable.

I am really curious.... Was it the same electrician all 4 times? Did they note any issues on their invoice?

I bet there is a lot more to this story.


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## gpop (May 14, 2018)

Ive been in this trade for 20+ years and ive seen a lot of things but i can honestly say i have never seen a electrical fault lower than 480 breach a metallic conduit. 
If this was romex on exposed wood studs with a breaker that refused to trip and no fire alarm i can see it happening but conduit with no fuel source.

"I already know exactly where and exactly how the fire started" is a interesting statement from a sparky so there's a lot more to this story. 

So how many of us would wire a water heater knowing the tank is empty. Do we trust the homeowner / contractor or do we refuse to wire it up until the tank has been filled?


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

gpop said:


> Ive been in this trade for 20+ years and ive seen a lot of things but i can honestly say i have never seen a electrical fault lower than 480 breach a metallic conduit.
> If this was romex on exposed wood studs with a breaker that refused to trip and no fire alarm i can see it happening but conduit with no fuel source.
> 
> "I already know exactly where and exactly how the fire started" is a interesting statement from a sparky so there's a lot more to this story.


THIS.


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## BleedingLungsMurphy (10 mo ago)

gpop said:


> breach a metallic conduit


 This really stood out to me as well. Multiple witnesses were just standing there watching a fireworks show until the fire started? The breaker didn't trip when the wire tried welding itself to the pipe? I'm starting to wonder if OP was the "electrician" that fixed it 4 times


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## flyboy (Jun 13, 2011)

gpop said:


> So how many of us would wire a water heater knowing the tank is empty. Do we trust the homeowner / contractor or do we refuse to wire it up until the tank has been filled?


Maybe the plumber or customer wants it wired up prior to his piping it in? I would wire it up. Leave the breaker closed. Maybe I'd put a piece of red tape over the handle and/or a red tag and take a picture. I'd warn the customer not energize the circuit or risk burning out an element and thank them for their business. I'd also write that friendly warning on the invoice.


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## CAUSA (Apr 3, 2013)

I know a majority of you know the operation of the equipment, so I am just going to list it for the apprentices that read this post.

Boiler: safety components that will keep it shut off till reset or satisfactory conditions are met.
-low water cut off.
-low pressure cut off.
-high pressure cut off.
-flow differential cut out.
-ignition failure/flame failure control.
-flame roll out.
-pilot sensing control.
-thermocouple/thermopile.
-flame monitor failure.
Other safety devices depending on size and capacity and design.(steam high pressure/low pressure). (BTU capacity.)
-high gas pressure cut out.
-low gas pressure cut out.
-low fire Failure
-high exhaust temperature.
-flue damper end switch.
-IR sensor. 

Furnace: safety: depending on design and capacity. Manual reset. Or the condition needs to be satisfied.
-high limit.
-low limit.
-fan failure end switch.
-air flow differential switch.
-condensate spill switch.
-Flame roll out switch.
-flue damper end switch.
-ignition failure control module.
-pilot sensing module. 
-thermopile/thermocouple.
-high gas pressure switch.
-low gas pressure switch.
-low fire failure module.

to bypass any one listed, before the problem is corrected. This will cause a unsafe condition. Now with not knowing the true type of appliance. And capacity.

I am going to assume there was a breach in the burner/flue area. That was small and slowly increased in size over time. There really is no safety device for this other than a CO detector or exchanger pressure sensor. This is on the industrialization units with flame shaping technology. but not the small ones.

If this was a dwelling. The occupants should have displayed symptoms of CO poisoning long before the fire started. So I’m going to assume. It was a commercial environment.

but now, that is all we can do is assume. due to the fact that not all the required data is presented.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I agree. Based on the limited information we have, the story isnt adding up.

My impression was, someone dropped the ball on furnace and is trying to blame the electrician, but it does not seem like the primary fault lies with the electrician.


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## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

I am beginning to wonder if op is the electrician
and is hoping for anonymous back up to his defense


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