# new business-union or non



## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

dust said:


> being a non union contractor.


Let me ask you this first. What did YOU think of non union contractors when YOU were union? Do you think different of them now that you want to be a contractor? 




dust said:


> any advie as to how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor.


First thing is that YOU have to decide "how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor." because YOU are the one that it will effect. Does not matter what others think. So you decide, "Do I feel different about union now then I did just a few days ago?


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

Look, I'm just trying to see if other people went through this. I have no problem with union or non union contractors. It seems that non union contractors have do mostly residential stuff and union contractors do bigger work. I stated that I would like to do the union work, I was looking for advice on the pitfalls of getting in to that type of work. Do you have experience running a union shop?


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

dust said:


> Do you have experience running a union shop?


Yes sir I do


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

What's your financial backb one? Can you carry union scale payroll for 30-60 days until you collect payment?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

Since you asked… Consider this advice for what it is: 

If you open a merit shop you can always go union later should you choose to do so, but if you open a union shop, not unlike a roach motel you can NEVER leave. Unions have spent MILLIONS lobbing and getting bills passed that rig the system so that should you ever sign ANY agreement you will never be able to get out. There is no such thing as a temporary agreement, or one time agreement, they all have hooks and once you sign its over. 

If you are just starting out perhaps you would do better trying the merit route first then later if that does not work for you, then you can try the organized labor route. 

Its all about choice and keeping your options open while you figure out what is going to work for you. Contracting is not easy, the risks are phenomenal, and you can kiss that cushy 40-hour work week good bye.


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

I could float a month or 2 of payroll. 
BDB, what's your experience running owning a union shop?


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

Phat elvis, what happens to my union status if I do the merit shop?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

oldman said:


> What's your financial backb one? Can you carry union scale payroll for 30-60 days until you collect payment?


Is the pay that much higher that it would make a difference? Or is the pay that much lower that it would make a difference?



You would save on some overhead by having the union hall deal with health care and hiring costs. It is also nice not dealing with pay raises and the old "don't tell anyone I'm paying you more than the rest of the crew" fib that you see in most non-union environments. Everyone knows what the other makes; I think it makes for a more trusting environment.


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

I do like having the option of being able to build my business a little, I'm in the process of getting my certifications as an sbe,mbe,and about 4 other certifications that would help me in doing union work. As I stated before, it is my goal to do this kind of work, but it is going to take a little time to get my ducks in a row.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Union VS open shop depends on your local's strenght in your area, your shop size, percentage of union work in your area, number of shops in your area, open shop wages VS union scale in your area, benefits you would offer, manpower available, customers perspective of unions and open shops.

14 men at approximatly $4.00 an hour difference, about $116,480.00 in your pocket per year. And $4.00 is a conservative number. Could you use an extra $116,480.00 a year?


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

I know there are a lot of people out of work, I think they said a year or so. I think that the difference would be more than $4.00. The biggest positive for doing state and govt. work is that at least the other contractors I bid against have a license, not like I've seen in alot of residential situations.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I am surprised your hall is not trying to help you. My hall will refer you to business classes and work hard on helping you succeed. It is much easier to keep you than to try to organize you later. As for PhatElvis advice, he seems bitter, probably a story behind that.


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

the hall was very eager to help me. I just don't want to jump into signing without know as much info as possible.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> Union VS open shop depends on your local's strenght in your area, your shop size, percentage of union work in your area, number of shops in your area, open shop wages VS union scale in your area, benefits you would offer, manpower available, customers perspective of unions and open shops.
> 
> 14 men at approximatly $4.00 an hour difference, about $116,480.00 in your pocket per year. And $4.00 is a conservative number. Could you use an extra $116,480.00 a year?


Does that mean you charge the same for labor but just keep the $4 an hour for your self?


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

dust said:


> I could float a month or 2 of payroll.
> BDB, what's your experience running owning a union shop?


dust,
What is better, going union or non-union? There really is no one answer, It depends on (like brian john said "Union VS open shop depends on your local's strenght in your area, your shop size, percentage of union work in your area, number of shops in your area, open shop wages VS union scale in your area, benefits you would offer, manpower available, customers perspective of unions and open shops.". Where I am, I am the only union shop in a 150 mile radius. So every bid that I do, I am bidding against all non union shops, The hall has no man power for my area. This company has been union since the 1950's. The 70's and 80's were not to bad. But then all the union shops start dropping out, the hall was moved to another local etc. From the 90's till present it is a hard road, We do alot of Govt. and state work (like you would like to do) But the non unions bid those jobs too. They may have the Davis Bacon Act to help get the wages closer BUT the DBA scale has not been changed since the 80's here. So I pay higher wages then the non union and pay HW, NECA, Union etc that others do not. So you probably can not compare your situation in NJ to mine here.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Does that mean you charge the same for labor but just keep the $4 an hour for your self?


NO I AM UNION ,I WOULD LOSE $4.00 and hour but in my area it is more like $12.00 an hour.

$12.00 X 14 men X 2,000 hours a year $336,000.00, nothing to sneeze at.

And if it was the other way around you would have a problem with that?

We have to be competitive with our competition.

My open shop competition that are my friends live MUCH better that I do.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

oldman said:


> What's your financial backb one? Can you carry union scale payroll for 30-60 days until you collect payment?


Not only payroll, but Material also. Sometimes it ends up being more then 60 days.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

What local, dust?


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> I AM UNION


Do not know why, but for some reason I have always thought you were non union





brian john said:


> My open shop competition that are my friends live MUCH better that I do.


This is so true


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

Old man, is it relavant?


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

brian john said:


> NO I AM UNION ,I WOULD LOSE $4.00 and hour but in my area it is more like $12.00 an hour.
> 
> $12.00 X 14 men X 2,000 hours a year $336,000.00, nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> ...


Brother I am sorry, I know you are union. I tried to be funny. Note to self: *Keep to the electrical, leave comedy to the professionals.* :whistling2:


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

Dust,

Be very careful in your decision. You said you've been in the union for 10 years. Chances are you have "re-paid" your apprenticeship with JW hours and you are vested in your pension. That's step one.

Of course the union is eager to sign you up. That is their job. They want their income. What is the minumum you have to pay the local if you have no billable hours? It was gonna cost me almost a grand a month just for medical. Will your local give you a leave of absense? How big of a deal is it to fall off the books for a couple of years? 

Your help is going to cost you alot more if you go the union route. Go solo for a while doing the residential and small commercial work to build up your business. If you can last 5 years, then it might be the time to grow and go after the bigger government work. Remember most contractors fail. 

Payments can be slow in government work and you won't believe the amount of paperwork involved. You don't mind your P's and Q's, payment delayed even more. Some projects even limit your mark-ups.

I would say you need at least $300,000 in cash to cover tools and payroll for 90 days going the government route.

You could start your business solo right now for under $5,000.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

dust said:


> Phat elvis, what happens to my union status if I do the merit shop?


I do not know, I am not a union member. I would suspect the BA will be vindictive and punish you, but then later be nice and let you back in if you signed an agreement. 



drsparky said:


> Is the pay that much higher that it would make a difference? Or is the pay that much lower that it would make a difference?
> 
> You would save on some overhead by having the union hall deal with health care and hiring costs. It is also nice not dealing with pay raises and the old [don't tell anyone I'm paying you more than the rest of the]; fib that you see in most non-union environments. Everyone knows what the other makes; I think it makes for a more trusting environment.


1) The union does not employ electricians. You still have to screen and decide who to hire and who to turn back, and all those health care costs… you still pay them it’s part of the benefit package in the agreement. Your HR costs are not cheaper with the union route. 

2) You still deal with pay raises ever 2 to 3 years in the form of negotiations. You also still deal with the don’t tell policies and the petty differences in pay. Quality labor comes with a premium even union labor. I pay my key people above scale just to keep them, on average a “good” electrician gets a dollar more and as the quality goes up, so does the pay and perks like trucks and even foreman status. OT is also a reward I have to use on top of the extra pay.


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## Minuteman (Dec 29, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> I do not know, I am not a union member. I would suspect the BA will be vindictive and punish you, but then later be nice and let you back in if you signed an agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Evis speaks truth.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

dust said:


> Old man, is it relavant?


Only in that 102 is sucking wind, 164 has hope on the horizon, 400 will kill you. And an $80/hr labor cost due every week, no matter what, adds up quick.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> 1) The union does not employ electricians. You still have to screen and decide who to hire and who to turn back, and all those health care costs… you still pay them it’s part of the benefit package in the agreement. Your HR costs are not cheaper with the union route.


H&W will be more in the union (depending what you offer).



> 2) OT is also a reward I have to use on top of the extra pay.


Not here, OT is a staple of life, we work OT every week due to the nature of the job.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Brother I am sorry, I know you are union. I tried to be funny. Note to self: *Keep to the electrical, leave comedy to the professionals.* :whistling2:


 
Do not be sorry that I lack the intuition to see humor in your post.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

OT is something that when you are carrying more labor than you really need, becomes harder and harder to justify.

Last year about this time there was plenty of justifiable OT, now there is not so much.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

dust said:


> I've worked in the union for 10 years, had my share of b.s. . I got my license and business permit because I am laid off and they said it could be a year or more till I get back to work. I got a call from the hall on monday, the business manager wanted to see me. He showed me an anomymous letter that said I had a business and that some coward had nothing to do with his time. The b.m. told me that I could either sign as a union contractor or take my name off the out of work list. My end goal when I started out to get my license was to try and do state and local govt. work, I'm just trying to take it one step at a time, does anyone have any advie as to how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor.


This is all very cute, but you're not fooling anyone. Anyone care to trace the IP address to either Oldman or Phat Elvis? Because this entire thread is a crock of you know what.

From your writing and terminoligy, I can assure everyone you were NEVER a union member and have had no intimate or even casual dealings with the IBEW.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

Looks like he may be gone now any way :blink:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is all very cute, but you're not fooling anyone. Anyone care to trace the IP address to either Oldman or Phat Elvis? Because this entire thread is a crock of you know what.
> 
> From your writing and terminoligy, I can assure everyone you were NEVER a union member and have had no intimate or even casual dealings with the IBEW.


 Whatever... tracing IPs what is that a threat? There's the ugly side of radicals and Fleas, if they dont like something you said they want to know who you are.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Care to elaborate lawnguy?


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

drsparky said:


> Is the pay that much higher that it would make a difference? Or is the pay that much lower that it would make a difference?
> 
> 
> 
> You would save on some overhead by having the union hall deal with health care and hiring costs. It is also nice not dealing with pay raises and the old "don't tell anyone I'm paying you more than the rest of the crew" fib that you see in most non-union environments. Everyone knows what the other makes; I think it makes for a more trusting environment.


it could be...the OP is in NJ...a JW in Northern NJ (102 or 164) total package is around $75/hr, add it employer payroll taxes and it's over $80/hr...

Non-union, a decent package will be around $50/hr...

some guys will pay "JW" (notice the quotes) $20+/- per hour with no benefits...

the big difference is the type of work...starting out non-union performing service/repair and small installs, much of your work can be COD...

starting out Union (and non-union) and trying to perform government projects, you are fronting the money for 30+ days...small project 3 JW's and 2 Apprenti's...payroll is easily $12,000 week...add in material, other overhead, etc...and you are $20k +/- week...

so, the financial backbone is needed...

however, if you have contacts and connections that will push you through, and paid faster, this is less of a concern.

if you have a good relationship with the BA and he sends you producers, instead of slugs, it makes a difference.

if the BA looks the otherway while you have 1 JW and 3 apprentices...or 1 JW and 3 laborers...it makes a difference...

so, the connections one has play a larger role than anything else...


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## cmec (Feb 11, 2008)

dust said:


> I've worked in the union for 10 years, had my share of b.s. . I got my license and business permit because I am laid off and they said it could be a year or more till I get back to work. I got a call from the hall on monday, the business manager wanted to see me. He showed me an anomymous letter that said I had a business and that some coward had nothing to do with his time. The b.m. told me that I could either sign as a union contractor or take my name off the out of work list. My end goal when I started out to get my license was to try and do state and local govt. work, I'm just trying to take it one step at a time, does anyone have any advie as to how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor.


 
I went thru a similar scenerio in the 80s, no work ,bunch a stupid rules, not contractor friendly and as smart as they are today . They still need a couple more bottles of smart pills, Tried being a union contractor and tore my ticket and agreement up.

On davis bacon my guys and selfe put the whole package in our pockets.

On private work I charge and pay whatever the market will bare.

We work AS MUCH AS THE UNION GUYS somtimes more.


The only way I would consider being union is if I could work and not participate in the h&w program they want me to pay for hospitalization when my wife already has it and I dont trust other people handling my pension money.

ITS LIKE THEY DONT WANT YOU TO ADVANCE,if they changed a couple of things they would have more signatory contractors,Rember you cant run a union without work.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*New business new union or non*

If they are going to let you work with the tools and you have enough work to pay yourself and the the benefits what would you lose.

If they let you go on the way you are and remove your name from the book are you keeping the ticket? If you are what are you losing a place on the book if a place on the book is that important then you really don't want to be in business in the first place.

What type of work are you doing now and can you do it union ?

If they want to help you and you trust them consider it it may be a good thing


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## dust (Apr 20, 2009)

right now the work I'm getting can not be done union, I do have connections to get bigger work. If the guy was saying before that this is a crock , then he is mistaken. I have, and still am a union member. However, there is a serious lack of work and I have to take care of my house. I can't sit out a year and a half, losing my home is not an option. The oppurtunities that I have are very good. I am kind of being pushed to make a decision to become a union or non union contractor(thanks to a local brother that has no life). I appreciate everyones opinion and experience. Every little bit of knowlege is very valuable to me.


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## N PHILLY KID (Mar 26, 2008)

*new business union or non*

Check your local for small works and residential agreements . I am assuming your an A ticket guy and may not be aware of these agreements. If your in the local I think you are an assumption from take your name off the book statement these agreements may be available.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

N PHILLY KID said:


> If they are going to let you work with the tools and you have enough work to pay yourself and the the benefits what would you lose.


$4.00-$12.00 and hours.



> If they let you go on the way you are and remove your name from the book are you keeping the ticket? If you are what are you losing a place on the book if a place on the book is that important then you really don't want to be in business in the first place.


Good point maybe he see's it as a belt with suspenders



> What type of work are you doing now and can you do it union ?


ELECTRIC:laughing:



> If they want to help you and you trust them consider it it may be a good thing


It can be the money is the issue IMO.


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

dust said:


> I've worked in the union for 10 years, had my share of b.s. . I got my license and business permit because I am laid off and they said it could be a year or more till I get back to work. I got a call from the hall on monday, the business manager wanted to see me. He showed me an anomymous letter that said I had a business and that some coward had nothing to do with his time. The b.m. told me that I could either sign as a union contractor or take my name off the out of work list. My end goal when I started out to get my license was to try and do state and local govt. work, I'm just trying to take it one step at a time, does anyone have any advie as to how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor.



see! you can not do it one step at a time, not them. reason one why unions suck! you got railroaded!


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> NO I AM UNION ,I WOULD LOSE $4.00 and hour but in my area it is more like $12.00 an hour.
> 
> $12.00 X 14 men X 2,000 hours a year $336,000.00, nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, I thought nonunion wages were "comparable" and many even go above union scale?


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wait a minute, I thought nonunion wages were "comparable" and many even go above union scale?


Wow, what a stretch of a low hanging curve ball...

Yes, merit shops sometimes do pay a lot more than scale to the electricians that PRODUCE, and they have to pay way above scale to the good foreman. Hence the term "merit" you may want to add that word to your dictionary. You don't have to use that word if the union wont let you but you should at least know what it means...or at least pretend like you do.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

Merit.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

oldman said:


> Merit.


 Damn.... Thanks


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Damn.... Thanks


Np. These guys would argue with you for 8 pages on a technicality


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> Wow, what a stretch of a low hanging curve ball...
> 
> Yes, merit shops *sometimes* do pay *a lot more than scale* to the electricians that *PRODUCE*, and they have to *pay way above scale to the good foreman.* Hence the term "merit" you may want to add that word to your dictionary. You don't have to use that word if the union wont let you but you should at least know what it means...or at least pretend like you do.


Ah there's that good ole protective qualifier.. "sometimes." Bet I can randomly select 20 "merit" shops out of the phone book and NONE of them will be paying anywhere near scale to anybody except the boss's son. The "good" foreman will be uncle Bob.

BTW these things will kill ya:


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Wait a minute, I thought nonunion wages were "comparable" and many even go above union scale?


Some do, but they are not my care or concern I have enough trouble dealing with my own employees.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ah there's that good ole protective qualifier.. "sometimes." Bet I can randomly select 20 "merit" shops out of the phone book and NONE of them will be paying anywhere near scale to anybody except the boss's son. The "good" foreman will be uncle Bob.
> 
> BTW these things will kill ya:


Which means the owner is putting more in his pocket, seems like a good deal to me.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

You are smok'n something alright, are you looking for a ditch digger job. It pays $12/hr and no hand holding, is right up your alley.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

PhatElvis said:


> You are smok'n something alright, are you looking for a ditch digger job. It pays $12/hr and no hand holding, is right up your alley.


You could pay better if you were capable of landing some real work. I suppose it makes sense, 12 bucks an hour to dig all day, what with the kind of job scraps you must have to settle for... 

(BTW, the only one smoking something is whoever believes you're a business owner. :whistling2: How's that residential renovation going? :laughing: Couldn't be too busy what with you posting all morning, afternoon and evening on message boards.  )

Don't bother with the "I have people do that for me" comeback...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> Which means the owner is putting more in his pocket, seems like a good deal to me.


That's fine, but then don't complain when your offered wages attract only ex-cons and drug addicts. 

Some people want the best of both worlds... ignorant people.


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## knowshorts (Jan 9, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's fine, but then don't complain when your offered wages attract only ex-cons and drug addicts.
> 
> Some people want the best of both worlds... ignorant people.


I would rather hire and work with Brian Johns ex-cons and drug addicts than have to be associated with the likes of Brian McLaughlin.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> That's fine, but then don't complain when your offered wages attract only ex-cons and drug addicts.
> 
> Some people want the best of both worlds... ignorant people.


 
LGLS: I do not hire ex-cons as a rule and as far as the best of both worlds I strive for both I hire Union employees* but strive to get the most bang for my buck. As an owner for me to do any less (get the most bang for my buck) would be slacking. I have never been a slacker, I have always been at the top of my game with my chosen profession both in skills and money whether I worked open shop or union.

*Actually most of my employees were open shop I went out and found them and brought them into the local. So I could easily be an open shop, but I prefer union as I feel it offers the best for my men. If you have an issue with that well then I have no answers for you.

As far as open shop making more, look back at my post, I have said SOME open shops pay more. The reasoning behind this is retention and avoiding the men want to go union. Why would a man want or need a union if where he worked all men were longtime employees (a friend of mine just retired from this shop started when he was 16 and is now 62), they are paid equal to union and have excellent benefits actual exceeding union with holidays and vacation.

I am not sure if you have some hate of management, are just blinded by union politics or just pulling our legs sometimes. Cause generally you seem like a nice guy, not the typical union lawyer.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

knowshorts said:


> I would rather hire and work with Brian Johns ex-cons and drug addicts than have to be associated with the likes of Brian McLaughlin.


But Brian McLaughin, who just gave up Petrocelli, couldn't do what he did without the contractors he was in cahoots with. Next on the chopping block will probably be Welsbach and it's super and the 2 main foremen. 

So you see, it all comes down and back to the dishonest, greedy contractors again. It was all a management scam, and positioning someone in the union was what made it all work.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> LGLS: I do not hire ex-cons as a rule and as far as the best of both worlds I strive for both I hire Union employees* but strive to get the most bang for my buck. As an owner for me to do any less (get the most bang for my buck) would be slacking. I have never been a slacker, I have always been at the top of my game with my chosen profession both in skills and money whether I worked open shop or union.


Regardless of where you've pegged yourself on the ladder of success, union or non, there is still a ladder. a 20-man shop, someone is at the top, someone is at the bottom, there's a croud in the middle. Doesn't mean the bottom rung is the devil incarnate.



> *Actually most of my employees were open shop I went out and found them and brought them into the local. So I could easily be an open shop, but I prefer union as I feel it offers the best for my men. If you have an issue with that well then I have no answers for you.


No issues with that at all. I not only encourage cherrypicking, I used to actively participate in the practice as an undercover salt. 



> As far as open shop making more, look back at my post, I have said SOME open shops pay more. The reasoning behind this is retention and avoiding the men want to go union. Why would a man want or need a union if where he worked all men were longtime employees (a friend of mine just retired from this shop started when he was 16 and is now 62), they are paid equal to union and have excellent benefits actual exceeding union with holidays and vacation.


I'm waiting for the day if find that shop... is it "Unicorn Electric?" The devil is in the details, I guarantee you, if any shop "generally" pays better than union to it's journeymen, then they have their "journeymen" in foremen positions only, running work not pulling wire or installing, and call everyone else doing everything else something else, like apprentice or helper, and the ratio of them to "journeyman" is nowhere near 1 to 3.



> I am not sure if you have some hate of management, are just blinded by union politics or just pulling our legs sometimes. Cause generally you seem like a nice guy, not the typical union lawyer.


I'm way more than a nice guy. :thumbup:


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

socialism is much easier to believe in, when you are on the receiving end...

work up to the giving end, and capitalism starts to sound much better...


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## Southeast Power (Jan 18, 2009)

dust said:


> right now the work I'm getting can not be done union, I do have connections to get bigger work. If the guy was saying before that this is a crock , then he is mistaken. I have, and still am a union member. However, there is a serious lack of work and I have to take care of my house. I can't sit out a year and a half, losing my home is not an option. The opportunities that I have are very good. I am kind of being pushed to make a decision to become a union or non union contractor(thanks to a local brother that has no life). I appreciate everyones opinion and experience. Every little bit of knowledge is very valuable to me.


Personally, I would sign up, pay the benefits based on the hours they require for contractors. Last thing you want is to mess up your ten working years with one year of broken service. I did just what you are doing and Im glad I did.
If it doesn't work out for you, go sign the book. Lots of former contractors working out of union halls.
If you have another way to get health care, I believe you can opt out of that portion.
There are thousands of one and two man union shops. You should be able to make enough money to carry your benefits. Hang in there! Sounds like you have a good local to work with. They can sometimes hook you up with some really good gigs.:thumbsup:


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You could pay better if you were capable of landing some real work. I suppose it makes sense, 12 bucks an hour to dig all day, what with the kind of job scraps you must have to settle for...


So are you saying $12/hr is not fair?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> No issues with that at all. I not only encourage cherrypicking, I used to actively participate in the practice as an undercover salt.


My limited expierence with salt was not very good. Several of my open shop customers were salted and there was some sabatoage going on. Plus they were at the point of not utilizing my services out of spite for the union.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> My limited expierence with salt was not very good. Several of my open shop customers were salted and there was some sabatoage going on. Plus they were at the point of not utilizing my services out of spite for the union.


Holy ! And people think I'm militant?! 

The last cherrypick worked with me on my job during his vacation. He was lead foreman on a hotel/retail/parking garage job. Not only was this guy running 26 men, most were inexperienced helpers. He was not permitted any subforemen. He got no support from the shop insofaras project management. 

With 26 men, there was ONE gangbox, and no more than 2 of anything (drills, sawzalls, hammerdrills, 6' ladder, 8' ladder, etc) AND the shop was constantly hounding him to give up some tools for other jobs. When a powertool was dropped and broken and had to be reordered, the owner wanted to know who did it, and deducted the cost from the kid's paycheck.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Holy ! And people think I'm militant?!
> 
> The last cherrypick worked with me on my job during his vacation. He was lead foreman on a hotel/retail/parking garage job. Not only was this guy running 26 men, most were inexperienced helpers. He was not permitted any subforemen. He got no support from the shop insofaras project management.
> 
> With 26 men, there was ONE gangbox, and no more than 2 of anything (drills, sawzalls, hammerdrills, 6' ladder, 8' ladder, etc) AND the shop was constantly hounding him to give up some tools for other jobs. When a powertool was dropped and broken and had to be reordered, the owner wanted to know who did it, and deducted the cost from the kid's paycheck.


I am all for picking and choosing the best to be in any local, it should benefit both the union and the worker. I have tried to bring men into our local even if they were not going to work for me, when I think it would help out the worker. Until recently our local had trouble supplying enough manpower due to the high work load.


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## BDB (Jul 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> Until recently our local had trouble supplying enough manpower due to the high work load.


It is /has been that way here for years, not because of work load, but because we are the only union contractor


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## Lightning Bolt (Feb 17, 2009)

dust said:


> I've worked in the union for 10 years, had my share of b.s. . I got my license and business permit because I am laid off and they said it could be a year or more till I get back to work. I got a call from the hall on monday, the business manager wanted to see me. He showed me an anomymous letter that said I had a business and that some coward had nothing to do with his time. The b.m. told me that I could either sign as a union contractor or take my name off the out of work list. My end goal when I started out to get my license was to try and do state and local govt. work, I'm just trying to take it one step at a time, does anyone have any advie as to how it is being a union contractor as apposed to being a non union contractor.


There is a letter of assent "c" now that will let you out in the first 12 months I believe. Ask about it. What local are you out of? Also if your Local has stayed up with the Davis Bacon rates you will be on the same playing field as the non union. You will need at least 5-6 months of payroll, overhead, insurance, Bonding, and material cushion. Now if it is just you and an apprentice you could manage less. Now for the other work out there you could use the CW/CE Program and help gain back some of that market if it is lost in your area. These rates are or should be in line with your competition. Don’t be scared ask for help from your local. There is a lot of changes that will be coming down if we cannot change the control of the market share. There is a lot of advantages as well as disadvantages but trying to do the right thing and hiring skilled trained people and being able to pay them a good wage and benefit will help you retain the ones that will do you a good job. You will be helping your community keep a standard of living and help keep everyone racing to the bottom. Will it be easy no it never is when it is worth it in your heart? This is why organizing is so important and why our Brothers that started this great movement had organizing the very first thing in IBEW Constitution, *The **OBJECTS** of the INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF ELECTRICAL WORKERS are: *To organize all workers in the entire electrical industry in the United States and Canada, including all those in public utilities and electrical manufacturing, into local unions,


To promote reasonable methods of work, 


To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry, 


To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible), 


To assist each other in sickness or distress, 


To secure employment, To reduce the hours of daily labor, 


To secure adequate pay for our work, 


To seek a higher and higher standard of living, 


To seek security for the individual, 


And by legal and proper means to elevate the moral, intellectual and social conditions of our members, their families and dependents, in the interest of a higher standard of citizenship.


 Not race everyone to the bottom! If we started working together more we could get a lot done and go home earlier. 

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111


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## sparkyboys (May 3, 2009)

To promote reasonable methods of work, 


To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry, 


To settle all disputes between employers and employees by arbitration (if possible), 


To assist each other in sickness or distress, 


To secure employment, To reduce the hours of daily labor, 


To secure adequate pay for our work, 


To seek a higher and higher standard of living, 


To seek security for the individual, 

these are the same things that the non-union companies do as well. 
so dont pop off like the union has more things to offer than a nonunion company


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## Lightning Bolt (Feb 17, 2009)

sparkyboys said:


> To promote reasonable methods of work,
> 
> 
> To cultivate feelings of friendship among those of our industry,
> ...


 
I sure never seen it when I was working nonunion. It was cut throat, back stabbing, lieing, climb over who ever to get to the top at all cost and I am sure there is some of that on the union side also. I just have not seen it to the willingness I did working nonunion. It may have been them real bad shops that I worked for in the South also. Slave drivers to no end.


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## PhatElvis (Jan 23, 2009)

The letter of assent is a trap, once you sign it all the union has to do it take a vote (usually an organizer asking all your guys to sign a card without really telling them what it is) then you are an 9A and you are a union contractor who is legally tied to collective bargaining whether you want to be one or not 

If they ever show up at your office with a stack of cards they want you to look at, DONT even look at them, because their will be a witness and by looking at them, you just acknowledged the vote.

If you are serious about joining, you should at least talk to a labor attorney and find out what it means and what you are signing.


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## user5941 (Mar 16, 2009)

PhatElvis said:


> Since you asked… Consider this advice for what it is:
> 
> If you open a merit shop you can always go union later should you choose to do so, but if you open a union shop, not unlike a roach motel you can NEVER leave. Unions have spent MILLIONS lobbing and getting bills passed that rig the system so that should you ever sign ANY agreement you will never be able to get out. There is no such thing as a temporary agreement, or one time agreement, they all have hooks and once you sign its over.
> 
> ...


 I started out union and after the first year I choose to go non-union,you can get out but you have to do it the right way.


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## retired 7373 (Feb 28, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> But Brian McLaughin, who just gave up Petrocelli, couldn't do what he did without the contractors he was in cahoots with. Next on the chopping block will probably be Welsbach and it's super and the 2 main foremen.
> 
> So you see, it all comes down and back to the dishonest, greedy contractors again. It was all a management scam, and positioning someone in the union was what made it all work.


Lawn Guy,
Hello,, Enjoy reading your post.
With over 30 years as a member of the IBEW I have been through many phases. I have always believed in working. I do not believe all contractors are the enemy. In many cases it is the foreman who causes alot of problems. I also know the IBEW causes a lot of problems.
In many ways the IBEW is nothing more than an employment agency.
Anything with human beings involved is going to have problems.
Take Care


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

retired 7373 said:


> Lawn Guy,
> Hello,, Enjoy reading your post.
> With over 30 years as a member of the IBEW I have been through many phases. I have always believed in working. I do not believe all contractors are the enemy. In many cases it is the foreman who causes alot of problems. I also know the IBEW causes a lot of problems.
> In many ways the IBEW is nothing more than an employment agency.
> ...


Foremen? Supers, Generals, Project Managers, Stewards, Business Agents, and on and on, ANYONE could be a problem. 

Contractors are not the enemy. The contractors want what they want, naturally and labor wants what labor wants, naturally. The two together hash out an agreement that is fair to all sides... but when the doo-doo hits the fan, who asks for consessions, and from whom?


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## Lightning Bolt (Feb 17, 2009)

*Contrators or the unions are the enemy*

When you talk about concessions and who it is coming from depends on the relationship labor and management has with one another, it should be both and the climate of the economics should be considered. This I think is where the union drops the ball contractors and Labor. Together we could do a lot more and have a better relationship if one would not try to take advantage of the other. Together we all could make a good living and share all the work. But again you are correct when you add people to the mix, there are so many out for them self and the hell with everyone else. I joined the Union because of the fraternity, training, benefits, bettering the industry, pension, and having a say. I have been on both sides Union and nonunion. Also been on Labor and management side. I have seen a lot and together with a real partnership we could do most anything. Most membership and contractors need to be educated and step out and believe in each other, sometimes the relationship has so many wounds that time will only be the cure. I have always hoped for the true partnership. We have talent and the know how just getting one to trust the other first and then not screwing it up. If labor and Management would see the weak links like the PM, Estimator, super, GF, Foreman, worker, apprentice, and others and take care of the problem early this would make things better also. But we have a tendency (Labor and Management) to take care of our friends even when they do not perform like they should. We have faults on both sides and some how they need to be addressed first. The IBEW has a great plan if followed. But we have all the other versions of how they would like it and then you have the addendums of the plan.




LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Foremen? Supers, Generals, Project Managers, Stewards, Business Agents, and on and on, ANYONE could be a problem.
> 
> Contractors are not the enemy. The contractors want what they want, naturally and labor wants what labor wants, naturally. The two together hash out an agreement that is fair to all sides... but when the doo-doo hits the fan, who asks for consessions, and from whom?


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