# Light keeps tripping



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Sorry to say, but this sounds way too much like a DIY question.

Unless you can provide us with a wiring diagram, there's not much help we can give you anyway.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Well it is, but as I'm at home and am an Apprentice I was hoping for some help. Don't have any diagram software. Guess I didn't make it as easy to understand as I thought it was.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Well it is, but as I'm at home and am an Apprentice I was hoping for some help. Don't have any diagram software. Guess I didn't make it as easy to understand as I thought it was.


So you're an apprentice, but this is for your own work?



You don't need any fancy software. 












You just aren't providing any information other that it doesn't work properly. Your question is just like asking your mechanic, "My car won't start. I put gas in it... what could be wrong?"


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

What exactly is a 14/3 GFI?

As an apprentice you need to learn to be very clear when explaining electrical situations to others. 

I assume there is a 14/3 feeding the GFI, but exactly how is it wired? Is the GFI bi-wired, or is the 3rd wire capped off? 

Explain the situation.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Your question is just like asking your mechanic, "My car won't start. I put gas in it... what could be wrong?"


Crap, I gotta explain more than that to him, now I know why he charges me so much.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the constructive criticism, mostly serious. 
I will try to be more specific but we all have different terminology and i haven't learned sall the slang that you guys can sling so bear with me.
I am feeding the single pole switch using a 2 wire, 14 gauge by pig tailing it from the 3 wire 14 gauge feed that is being used for a GFI. The red wire is of course terminating in the GFI. My Q is should I be using a 3 wire to feed the switch and then run a 2 wire up from the switch to the light.
I hope this is clearer.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

just cap off that 3rd wire, its not needed!!!:whistling2:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Take the red wire out of the GFI and cap it?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks for all the constructive criticism, mostly serious.
> I will try to be more specific but we all have different terminology and i haven't learned sall the slang that you guys can sling so bear with me.
> I am feeding the single pole switch using a 2 wire, 14 gauge by pig tailing it from the 3 wire 14 gauge feed that is being used for a GFI. The red wire is of course terminating in the GFI. My Q is should I be using a 3 wire to feed the switch and then run a 2 wire up from the switch to the light.
> I hope this is clearer.


 
Your GFI is being fed with three wires?


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

hey, i was first!!!:jester:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Found it strange myself but didn't actually think about it till 1234 said it. That just may be the problem.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Same result caping off the red and inserting the black, the breaker trips.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*Lights keep tripping*

I am going to have to agree with 480voltSparky...But what really saddens me is that I am stuck with a a whole case of SINGLE PULL switch boxes.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> hey, i was first!!!:jester:


I was first!!!!!!!!!


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks for all the constructive criticism, mostly serious.
> I will try to be more specific but we all have different terminology and i haven't learned sall the slang that you guys can sling so bear with me.
> I am feeding the single pole switch using a 2 wire, 14 gauge by pig tailing it from the 3 wire 14 gauge feed that is being used for a GFI. The red wire is of course terminating in the GFI. My Q is should I be using a 3 wire to feed the switch and then run a 2 wire up from the switch to the light.
> I hope this is clearer.


Again, you aren't explaining your situation.

You say "the red wire is of course terminating in the GFI" but that isn't helping. Where does the black wire go?

I want you to think about this, if you were to run a 3 wire from the GFI to the switch, what would you attach the 3 wires to?


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## crazymurph (Aug 19, 2009)

Call BCSparkeygirl, she can fix it, She is cute also.:thumbsup:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

We'll leave it at that. Thanks for the replies.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Johnny M said:


> We'll leave it at that. Thanks for the replies.


Why? Why not just explain what the wires are doing?

If you were on the phone with your boss, what would you say? Would you just hang up and find a new career?


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

Does it trip when you turn the switch on? And I agree with crazymurph:thumbsup:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Mikeg_05 it trips when switched off. Have had it in the on position the 3 tinmes I have tried it with power.

Arrr...matey the black wire goes to the other outlest that this is feeding. yes I forgot that in my original post . The orignal run has the GFI and another outlet feeds from that and I am pulling off the original run as originally stated


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Mikeg_05 it trips when switched off. Have had it in the on position the 3 tinmes I have tried it with power.
> 
> Arrr...matey the black wire goes to the other outlest that this is feeding. yes I forgot that in my original post . The orignal run has the GFI and another outlet feeds from that and I am pulling off the original run as originally stated


 
OK, let's try this. You say the GFI is fed with a 14/3...... in that 14/3, where on the GFI do the wires go?


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Johnny M said:


> Arrr...matey the black wire goes to the other outlest that this is feeding. yes I forgot that in my original post . The orignal run has the GFI and another outlet feeds from that and I am pulling off the original run as originally stated


So the 3 wire feeds two receptacles, a GFCI and a standard receptacle. The red wire goes to the GFCI and the black wire goes the the other receptacle, is that correct? If so, I'd assume that the white wire is pigtailed to both receptacles, is that correct?

If that is all true, then you could pick either circuit to run the light off of. You take the white and either the black or the red and pigtail them, then run a *2 wire* to the switch and then another 2 wire from the switch to the light. There would be no reason to run a 3 wire to the switch. What I wanted you to do is think about where you would land those 3 wires if you were to do it that way. You need to think about how the circuit works and what each wire is going to be doing.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Red to hot, white to neutral and green to ground. It works, have a few things pluged in while i figure out what to do..


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Red to hot, white to neutral and green to ground. It works, have a few things pluged in while i figure out what to do..


 
OK, so what does the black do?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> I have run a 14/2 to a light from a single pull switch that is being fed off a 14/3 GFI usibng 14/2. It keeps on trippping the breaker in the panel. The GFI still works fine. Should I be using 14/3 to feed the switch and then 14/2 up to the light? If not any suggestions?
> Thanks.


what kind of breaker is it - gfi or other 
how does the breaker trip and the gfi still work


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

480sparky said:


> OK, so what does the black do?


To the switch??:blink:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

|Arrrrrmatey: Thanks for the post. That is how I have it and it still trips the 15 amp breaker. I was going to put in a 3way switch instead of a single pole for the 3rd(red) wire. 

480 Sparky: as above the black pigtails to the other boxes (outlet, switch)

nolabama: two 15 amps on the same slot. One pops the oher doesn't. Both were fine before. I haven't taken the cover off the panel but I am thinking they are seperate breakers.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Have you followed the wires? The switch box should have two 2-wires coming into it. Each black wire should be connected to the switch and both whites should be spliced together. At the light box the white and black should be connected to the light. Make sure no exposed copper is touching anything else.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mikeg_05 said:


> To the switch??:blink:


Then from the switch to the light..... and back to where?

A three-way switch is not going to solve anything.


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## mikeg_05 (Jan 1, 2009)

man I need some visuals.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

ArrrrrMatey, I put the swtch and light in this afternoon and have checked that nothing is touching to cause the short but the overhead lamp (a keyless???) is older and has 2 sets of leads that can be used but the screws are colour coded so i have switched the white and black around to see if this does anything positive. I am going to replace that tomorrow even though it worked fine before I mucked with it. As I have it laid out as you have stated earlier I'm not really sure what else to do. I might just revert everything back to the way it was and see what happens. that is tomorrow for tonight I will watch a horror movie as my wife is out of town.
Thanks all.


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Johnny M said:


> ArrrrrMatey, I put the swtch and light in this afternoon and have checked that nothing is touching to cause the short but the overhead lamp (a keyless???) is older and has 2 sets of leads that can be used but the screws are colour coded so i have switched the white and black around to see if this does anything positive. I am going to replace that tomorrow even though it worked fine before I mucked with it. As I have it laid out as you have stated earlier I'm not really sure what else to do. I might just revert everything back to the way it was and see what happens. that is tomorrow for tonight I will watch a horror movie as my wife is out of town.
> Thanks all.


Take the keyless off and put wirenuts on each wire to safe it off, then power it up and see if it trips.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> ArrrrrMatey, I put the swtch and light in this afternoon and have checked that nothing is touching to cause the short but the overhead lamp (a keyless???) is older and has 2 sets of leads that can be used but the screws are colour coded so i have switched the white and black around to see if this does anything positive. I am going to replace that tomorrow even though it worked fine before I mucked with it. As I have it laid out as you have stated earlier I'm not really sure what else to do. I might just revert everything back to the way it was and see what happens. that is tomorrow for tonight I will watch a horror movie as my wife is out of town.
> Thanks all.


 
OK, let's go back a bit......... you feed the switch with the black. From the switch, what goes where?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> ArrrrrMatey, I put the swtch and light in this afternoon and have checked that nothing is touching to cause the short but the overhead lamp (a keyless???) is older and has 2 sets of leads that can be used but the screws are colour coded so i have switched the white and black around to see if this does anything positive. I am going to replace that tomorrow even though it worked fine before I mucked with it.


your pushing lack of knowledge even for a helper (not an apprentice)


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> h)
> 
> nolabama: two 15 amps on the same slot. One pops the oher doesn't. Both were fine before. I haven't taken the cover off the panel but I am thinking they are seperate breakers.


bet he has an afci and is mucking up the balanced load and doesnt know what kind of breaker it is


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> bet he has an afci and is mucking up the balanced load and doesnt know what kind of breaker it is


 
That, or he's shorting it out with the switch. Are AFCI's required in Canada?


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> That, or he's shorting it out with the switch. Are AFCI's required in Canada?


if he was shorting it out with the switch wont both phases trip - unless its a regular old short that hes jammed together


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> if he was shorting it out with the switch wont both phases trip - unless its a regular old short that hes jammed together


We may not be talking about 2 phases... it may just be a split circuit.

If there are two phases, it must may be the one for the black trips first.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> We may not be talking about 2 phases... it may just be a split circuit.
> 
> If there are two phases, it must may be the one for the black trips first.


watcha mean split circuit

i have never seen bucking phases where one trips first - but i didn't wire gods dirt factory either


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> watcha mean split circuit
> 
> i have never seen bucking phases where one trips first - but i didn't wire gods dirt factory either


 
Same circuit..... black is always hot, red is switched.

I've rarely seen two bucking phases where both tripped (unless they are handle-tied or multi-pole breakers).


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## TolmanElectric (Jan 27, 2009)

nolabama said:


> your pushing lack of knowledge even for a helper (not an apprentice)


Sounds like my old helper.. Budde Is that you? Call me if you need help chief. if not disregard.. 

What everyone is asking from the 14/3 what wire is hot? red or black ? did you terminate one of the wires with a wire nut or just push it in the back of the box. Everyone here could help you if you would just explain how everything is hooked up.. BTW the right side of the plugs should have brass looking screws (Gold/Copper/darker then left) as long as the ground is on bottom. also the white wires hook up on silver looking screws (screws right above greens screw also known as ground screw "left side of plug") also where does the source start? at a plug before GFI? does it run from the breaker box to GFI then to another plug then to switch? Explain in detail whats going on.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

TolmanElectric said:


> Sounds like my old helper.. Budde Is that you? Call me if you need help chief. if not disregard..


???? no im not Budde

and i think we have a diy on deck with how he's not able to give the correct info to help us thru this thats why i said what i said 


ken you got me racking my brain on that bucking phase statement - i know i've drank a lot in my life but did i kill that many brain cells


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> ???? no im not Budde
> 
> and i think we have a diy on deck with how he's not able to give the correct info to help us thru this thats why i said what i said
> 
> ...


I think he means the OP is Budde.

I'm guessing DIY myself as well. Have from the start. 

As for bucking, as soon as one breaker opens, the circuit is incomplete, current flow goes to zero and the other one stays closed.


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## TolmanElectric (Jan 27, 2009)

480sparky said:


> I think he means the OP is Budde.


Yeah I was.. I should have been more clear. I would have to retrain every Monday on how to wire a plug.

I sent him out to change (a closet light).. not add or pull new wire.. he called me to asked what to do with the extra white wire. And when asked what he was talking about he said "That white wire right there" I had to explain to him that I could not see it.. I was on the phone with him. :whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Will Johnny ever get his breaker to stay on?

Will the light ever work?

Will be ever know the whole story?


Find out tomorrow.... same Bat Time, same Bat Channel. (Hopefully!)


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## Sparky480 (Aug 26, 2007)

Sounds stupid but I had a bad box of porcelains before the tab was bent up so you screwed the bulb in it pushed the tab out and made a dead short. First time it happened it drove me nuts....


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## egads (Sep 1, 2009)

Never mind, this is DYI, I doubt he's an apprentice. 
(I had provided my take on what's wrong)


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for all the chatter. Will try it again today. what do you guys want my ITA # or what? Guess a lot of you have forgotten what it is like when you first start off. Hey that's cool. I gained some good insight and will definately think through a problem before puttinmg it down to "paper" so as not to mislead.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks for all the chatter. Will try it again today. what do you guys want my ITA # or what? Guess a lot of you have forgotten what it is like when you first start off. Hey that's cool. I gained some good insight and will definately think through a problem before puttinmg it down to "paper" so as not to mislead.


so far you havent been locked out so someone thinks your a 'lectrician 
if you could put this on paper we could probably tell you exactly where the problem is - btw if it did not have a problem before you started you should know that its in your work - check the gfi where you got power to the switch and you probably got a dead short in that box


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## ArrrrrMatey (Oct 23, 2009)

Johnny, if you have a digital camera you should take pictures of each box, that would help.

But I still maintain that you need to practice describing electrical wiring and problems, that will also help you understand other people when they describe wiring to you. There's nothing worse than having your foreman explain how to wire something with common industry language and not understand what the hell he is talking about.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks for all the chatter. Will try it again today. what do you guys want my ITA # or what? Guess a lot of you have forgotten what it is like when you first start off. Hey that's cool. I gained some good insight and will definately think through a problem before puttinmg it down to "paper" so as not to mislead.


 
All I'm asking for is to complete this picture:


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

480sparky said:


> All I'm asking for is to complete this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> ...... The white goes from the outlet pigtail to the switch...............


 

Uh.......................:whistling2:


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Uh.......................:whistling2:


yeah that should trip every time


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

nolabama said:


> yeah that should trip every time


.......you turn the switch on.

This still sounds like a DIY question. If the OP is truly in the electrical trade, yesterday was his first day on the job.


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

nolabama said:


> yeah that should trip every time


I dob't think I described it like the pic. The run is where the pigtail originates, one to the outlet the other to the light. 
Guess I won't bother asking why you think the breaker might be tripping now even though I have reverted it back to the way it was. 
You guys have fun now.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> I dob't think I described it like the pic. The run is where the pigtail originates, one to the outlet the other to the light.
> Guess I won't bother asking why you think the breaker might be tripping now even though I have reverted it back to the way it was.
> You guys have fun now.


Jeez. Talk about having your date go home from the dance with someone else..........


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

480sparky said:


> .......you turn the switch on.
> 
> This still sounds like a DIY question. If the OP is truly in the electrical trade, yesterday was his first day on the job.


wow - given how he's going back and forth to the project it must be diy - if he was on a yob and it took three days to wire a switch with a noodle i would hope he's fired by now


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

nolabama said:


> wow - given how he's going back and forth to the project it must be diy - if he was on a yob and it took three days to wire a switch with a noodle i would hope he's fired by now


 
As I responded at the beginning, I am doing this at home, and as you are so apt to point out faults, maybe you should read entire thread before commencing with your disparaging attitude. 
There were very few who really seemed to want to help and I thank you and to the rest maybe you should learn a little compassion and respect for your fellow human. It might just knock some of that jade off of ya.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

Johnny M said:


> As I responded at the beginning, I am doing this at home, and as you are so apt to point out faults, maybe you should read entire thread before commencing with your disparaging attitude.
> There were very few who really seemed to want to help and I thank you and to the rest maybe you should learn a little compassion and respect for your fellow human. It might just knock some of that jade off of ya.


have you found the problem yet - i have read your OP three times to try to understand it in order to help you - i have given responses that i thought would help and what i thought the problem was - i certainly hope that you are able to correct this problem 

having said that and all the jade is off for this one

take the two wire that goes from the gfi and goes to the switch and take the noodle off the switch(thats the white wire) - wire nut the white wire to the white wire you have going to the keyless fixture . take the black wire coming from the gfi that goes to the switch and put it on the bottom brass screw of the switch, put the black wire that goes to the keyless on the top brass screw of the switch - if you are using a modern romex there will be a bare wire inside of it - hook it to the green screw - take a roll of electrical tape and wrap the switch up real good so if you dont pay attenion to what your doing when you shove it back in the box you will have a chance of not shorting out this complex switching device. It might be a good idea for you to also wrap the gfi with tape to also help prevent a wayward short - you want the tape to go around the screws and not the face of the devices

you dont have any friends where you work that could help you with this project at your home?

im not trying to be overly jackassy with this, hell ive learned something in this thread, but a single pole switch in your own home is very DIY if ya know what i mean


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## Johnny M (Feb 14, 2009)

thanks nolabama. I finally now understand a switch leg, thanks to you. Not that most will believe this but I just finished level 1 school and the company I worked with has no work at the moment, even the kids are working else where, so I'm in fact looking for work. As this is a small town there isn't much here in this economic climate, I'm looking to the larger centres. thanks again.


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## nolabama (Oct 3, 2007)

your more than welcome - a switch leg is also called a return by some, you see why its called that now?- now when your ready i will explain a switch leg tap - not code compliant but you will see them


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