# So Flippin' Disappointed



## Litlbeast (Nov 21, 2009)

I'm a 1st year who hasn't been put to work yet. I understand it's hard right now w/ the economy, and our business manager is an awesome guy and he's trying his best. But it does get frustrating. 

Last week he was supposed to hear back from a contractor. All of the out of work apprentices and jw's were pretty psyched that we could possibly go back to work.

I found out that the contractor will not be using ANY apprentices or jw's. Only CE's and CW's. 

I'm pretty devastated; I might get evicted this month and I've got three kids. I'm not waiting only for the hall to find me a job, btw - I'm looking everywhere for any kind of work, every day. But it sure would have been nice.


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## dawgs (Dec 1, 2007)

Good luck. Tough times for most right now.


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## Litlbeast (Nov 21, 2009)

dawgs said:


> Good luck. Tough times for most right now.


Thanks. I know I'm not the only one, just needed to vent a little.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

Electrical construction has been nonexistence in this area for the last year. I took a lower paying job but am having a lot of fun at it. Find something fun and wait out the recession.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

In the mean time, find a new hobby!:thumbsup:


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

Well I for one am glad CE's and CW's are not used in our local.

Hang in there, it's definitely the worst ride I've seen in almost 30 years of comstruction.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Maybe this is not true across the board, but I would bet quite a few business mangers are having many a sleepless nights and ulcers from not being able to put men out. Even though they may be drawing a check, it is still tough on the good guys trying to put men (and women) to work.

It is tough out there and the Dems are screwing this backwards.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> It is tough out there and the Dems are screwing this backwards.


That's tough to picture, you see, typically that action is made in the front, with a forward motion...

Everybody puts on their shoes on the same way, so why is it the Dems have to do 'it' backwards? What's so exciting about doing it forwards anyways? Please elaborate.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Go to work at the supply house, you will learn the town, learn the contractors, learn the parts, and meet people.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Litlbeast said:


> Then our business manager passes along the fact that Reliable will not be using ANY apprentices or jw's. Only CE's and CW's.


Sadly, those CE's and CW's are waiting for bread too... everything just sucks. Its great for myself, but I acknowledge that it sucks for most everyone else.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

This is what happens when the republicans raid the piggy bank


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

CE/CW is really,really bad for the IBEW.It's under minding the whole entire apprenticeship and making journeyman obsolete.I do not blame the men,there just jumping at an opportunity to better themselves.But every single ce/cw should HAVE to progress to journeyman level.My hart goes out to the locals having this shoved down there throats.Hopefully the IBEW survives this because the international is driving a wedge right down the center of the membership.I don't know how true it is,but I heard that every local in the IBEW will have to adopt this classification.I know that if it happens in my local the men are going to RIOT!


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

brian john said:


> Maybe this is not true across the board, but I would bet quite a few business mangers are having many a sleepless nights and ulcers from not being able to put men out. Even though they may be drawing a check, it is still tough on the good guys trying to put men (and women) to work.


I'm watching my B.M. age before my very eye's.His hair has gone from gray to white in a matter of months.Tough times indeed.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

How many locals have this CE/CW classification now, and how do the journeyman on the job feel about them? What are these CE/CW aloud to do?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

sparks134 said:


> How many locals have this CE/CW classification now, and how do the journeyman on the job feel about them? What are these CE/CW aloud to do?


I believe the whole 9th district plus locals in the south as well.To say the JW are upset would be an under statement.Check out the IBEW friends and family site and see for yourself.


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## Litlbeast (Nov 21, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> Go to work at the supply house, you will learn the town, learn the contractors, learn the parts, and meet people.


That's a really good idea; thanks.


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## sparks134 (Jan 30, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> I believe the whole 9th district plus locals in the south as well.To say the JW are upset would be an under statement.Check out the IBEW friends and family site and see for yourself.


I've been on that website all morning, its very informative! THANKs again!


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

It's pretty rough out there. All a person can do is keep looking and keep voting. Have to get rid of the republicans and democrats. I'll be voting for someone like Kucinich next time around. I will not be voting for any candidate that does not support trade tariffs.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

sparks134 said:


> how do the journeyman on the job feel about them? What are these CE/CW aloud to do?


Some mind, some don't. 

They can do anything their skill level allows them to do. Their progression along the pay scale depends 95% on themselves. Depending on the local, and the company, sometimes people will go to bat for you and speak up that you're worth more than you're getting paid. I worked with a guy that one of his foreman got him a raise, a good one. 

No matter what, like anyone else, if the employee isn't worth their pay they'll quickly find the exit. It's not all roses for the CE's and CW's.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> I worked with a guy that one of his foreman got him a raise, a good one.


 Well you know who is buying lunch.:thumbsup:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Check out the IBEW friends and family site and see for yourself.


Don't waste your time checking out that crap hole. All it is full of is a bunch of no-good out of work travellers bitching and whining about every little thing possible. Some worth of criticism, most just BLAH BLAH BLAH poor me the man is holding me down. Whiny bitches.

Go ahead and click the "Thanks!" button, I know you want to.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Go ahead and click the "Thanks!" button, I know you want to.


 There you go got you on the board.:thumbsup:


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

sparks134 said:


> In the mean time, find a new hobby!:thumbsup:


 Dude! Yeah a hobby trying to find work, a place and feeding her kids, maybe.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Litlbeast said:


> Last week he was supposed to hear back from this contractor, Reliable (I don't care about posting their name, since I'm not saying anything false about them), about a new job that was supposed to start this week. All of the out of work apprentices and jw's were pretty psyched that we could possibly go back to work.
> 
> Then our business manager passes along the fact that Reliable will not be using ANY apprentices or jw's. Only CE's and CW's.


 
Isn't Reliable out of Charlotte N.C.?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the tough time you are having. Very tough time to be entering the trades. I think the supply house or something like that is going to be tough to find as well, but you never know. Then at least you are gaining some knowledge along with a paycheck.

Hope things turn around for you soon. And for everyone for that matter.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Can someone explain or post a link to reliable sound information on this new classification.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

brian john said:


> Can someone explain or post a link to reliable sound information on this new classification.


Ya, oh yah sure!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qybUFnY7Y8w

Be sure to have fun now!


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## regieleeroth (Feb 27, 2009)

brian john said:


> Can someone explain or post a link to reliable sound information on this new classification.


Stands for Construction Electrician/ Construction Wireman. 

Don't know what the difference is.

When you're hired in as one, you have to work so many hours (6000? 8000? It's high, I remember that...) before you are allowed to take a Jman test. 

Along the way, you must take upgrade classes (conduit bending, theory, etc).

Similar to Resi guys, but without the benefits, scant as they may be in comparison to a JW.

Basically it's cut-rate help to assist contractors in getting small-works jobs... gas stations, light commercial, etc. 

Allows a local to save it's REAL apprenticeships for the cream-of-the-crop applicants... hahahaha whoa that's rich. Forget I said that.:laughing:


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

regieleeroth said:


> Similar to Resi guys, but without the benefits, scant as they may be in comparison to a JW.


The only difference here is that a CE/CW has to pay for a family medical plan ($131, which is still dirt cheap for a full family plan) and a JW doesn't pay anything. Don't know about elsewhere, but nothing scant about the benefit difference here.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

gilbequick said:


> Don't waste your time checking out that crap hole. All it is full of is a bunch of no-good out of work travellers bitching and whining about every little thing possible. Some worth of criticism, most just BLAH BLAH BLAH poor me the man is holding me down. Whiny bitches.
> 
> Go ahead and click the "Thanks!" button, I know you want to.



Unfortunately I have to agree.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> The only difference here is that a CE/CW has to pay for a family medical plan ($131, which is still dirt cheap for a full family plan) and a JW doesn't pay anything. Don't know about elsewhere, but nothing scant about the benefit difference here.


 Is that $131 a week?


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Month. A lot of the CE/CW's dont' have families so it doesn't matter anyway.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Month. A lot of the CE/CW's dont' have families so it doesn't matter anyway.


 But still $131 a month isn't bad at all. I didn't know that about the CE/CW's.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f26/new-trade-classifications-8402/ Talked about it before this is bad news.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

About the supply house,

I was in the supply house the other day, and I never bring up the topic of what people take home, because it is in bad taste (I will say anything here with no shame.) Somehow or another, the subject of what the counter clerks and manager makes came up, and they said that they take home in a year what an electrician does, maybe more. I replied, 'well hey moneybags, maybe I need to memorize some part numbers and come work here!' Before I thought it was between $18 an $26 an hour, but with commission, the supply house counter folks are making $70k. This is not some high-volume branch either, most of the time its just one or two Johns in there ordering materials.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> About the supply house,
> 
> I was in the supply house the other day, and I never bring up the topic of what people take home, because it is in bad taste (I will say anything here with no shame.) Somehow or another, the subject of what the counter clerks and manager makes came up, and they said that they take home in a year what an electrician does, maybe more. I replied, 'well hey moneybags, maybe I need to memorize some part numbers and come work here!' Before I thought it was between $18 an $26 an hour, but with commission, the supply house counter folks are making $70k. This is not some high-volume branch either, most of the time its just one or two Johns in there ordering materials.



Makes sense in a good job market any hard working counter man would be snapped up by a contractor. I have tried to hire a few supply house employees in my days.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

regieleeroth said:


> Stands for Construction Electrician/ Construction Wireman.
> 
> Don't know what the difference is.
> 
> ...


I've never heard of the title of contruction electrician before. But it sounds similar to our MIJ division here in Local 3. Basically, for us at least, it's a secondary rate. All apprentices have to go through it. 4 years as an apprentice. The you take a test to become MIJ... then 1.5 or 2 years as an MIJ. Then you take the test to become an AJ. It's purpose is to work on smaller projects. In order to compete with non-union. But there is a rule behind it... I forget the exact pricing... but in order for it to be an "M" job it can not be bid no more than a certain price. 

In my opinion I think it works. But then again I think it would only work in certain locals with larger jobs (larger cities, more work overall, ect..)


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## brother (Nov 25, 2008)

Ok, tell me what is a CE/CW?? What does it stand for, cant figure out the initials.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

brother said:


> Ok, tell me what is a CE/CW?? What does it stand for, cant figure out the initials.


I am not sure if this is how it works for all locals?

http://www.ibew82.org/cwce.htm


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

JayH said:


> Well I for one am glad CE's and CW's are not used in our local.
> 
> Hang in there, it's definitely the worst ride I've seen in almost 30 years of comstruction.


You will very soon, the 9th district is "adopting" it as we speak. And yes it is the I.O's intention to have all local's adopt ce/cw. The are calling it an organizing tool, I'm calling it a "make Inside wireman obsolete" tool
FWIW, 332 is starting this in June, we had no choice and nothing is in writing:whistling2:
I've heard some really bad things about the program, if even half of its true we are all in trouble


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## RUSSIAN (Mar 4, 2008)

Also, the top rate for a CE is 28 and change. IW rate is currently 47 and change. from what have been told, we cant compete even at the 28 dollar rate. We've had a small works agreement in place for over a year and it's not been very succesful, the main reason being the non union can just lower their rates and still get the job. it's easy do when you only man a job with 1 qualified guy and the rest are barely apprentices, most are "helpers". 
I know the 10 guys who work for the greatest merit shops ever will chime in say I'm wrong, tell me how they make more then scale and what not, but the truth is they are very lucky. That is not the standard.


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## JayH (Nov 13, 2009)

That's not good news at all. We already have the Maintenence Electrician designation in 595. They used those "90 day wonders" when I was working at Broadmoore. 

A typical Inside wireman in our local can do much better quality work in half the time as these hacks because of training and education.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Litlbeast said:


> I'm a 1st year who hasn't been put to work yet. I understand it's hard right now w/ the economy, and our business manager is an awesome guy and he's trying his best. But it does get frustrating.
> 
> Last week he was supposed to hear back from this contractor, Reliable (I don't care about posting their name, since I'm not saying anything false about them), about a new job that was supposed to start this week. All of the out of work apprentices and jw's were pretty psyched that we could possibly go back to work.
> 
> ...


Why aren't the father(s) of your children stepping up?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> I've never heard of the title of contruction electrician before. But it sounds similar to our MIJ division here in Local 3. Basically, for us at least, it's a secondary rate. All apprentices have to go through it. 4 years as an apprentice. The you take a test to become MIJ... then 1.5 or 2 years as an MIJ. Then you take the test to become an AJ. It's purpose is to work on smaller projects. In order to compete with non-union. But there is a rule behind it... I forget the exact pricing... but in order for it to be an "M" job it can not be bid no more than a certain price.
> 
> In my opinion I think it works. But then again I think it would only work in certain locals with larger jobs (larger cities, more work overall, ect..)


Local 25 has it. 

Idea being, if union shops capture small work marketshare, then that prevents nonunion shops from becoming large enough to threaten the bigger A work.

And the MIJ job limit is around $500,000.00


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> .
> 
> Idea being, if union shops capture small work marketshare, then that prevents nonunion shops from becoming large enough to threaten the bigger A work.
> 
> And the MIJ job limit is around $500,000.00


If it is true that the locals do not have any small job market share and the addition of these men changes that and contractors do not abuse the program, it seems like it might not be so bad.

Here they have a trainee program, it helps get men that might not normally get in have a step up into the IBEW. Not sure how the long time trainees do, but my experience with the 1st and 2nd year men is less than positive.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

rather than a CE/CW, the IBEW should really consider tiered JW rates...similar to the apprenticeship scale...for a few reasons...

1) typically a 1st yr JW is no better than a 5th yr apprentice, and not nearly as good as a 10 yr JW...

2) when a person gets through apprenticeship, they become a JW and get the same pay as the guy in for 15-20 yrs...kind of limits the need for ambition and drive to do better...causes lots of apathy in the JW ranks...

3) it would allow the IBEW to compete better with their trained men, and not resort to organizing slugs for cheap rates....


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## Litlbeast (Nov 21, 2009)

william1978 said:


> Isn't Reliable out of Charlotte N.C.?


I don't know. I could find out, I suppose. Needless to say if I got the call to work (as in, they changed their minds) I'd work for Reliable in a hot minute. Work is work. I would just like some.


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## Litlbeast (Nov 21, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> Why aren't the father(s) of your children stepping up?


I didn't say he wasn't. However, he's a jw with 238. Fun times indeed!


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Litlbeast said:


> I didn't say he wasn't. However, he's a jw with 238. Fun times indeed!


Oh........... That sucks.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

JayH said:


> That's not good news at all. We already have the Maintenence Electrician designation in 595. They used those "90 day wonders" when I was working at Broadmoore.
> 
> A typical Inside wireman in our local can do much better quality work in half the time as these hacks because of training and education.




And I thought it was all about proper Education, training and skill. I'd love to see some of these hacked up jobs.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Local 25 has it.
> 
> Idea being, if union shops capture small work marketshare, then that prevents nonunion shops from becoming large enough to threaten the bigger A work.
> 
> And the MIJ job limit is around $500,000.00


In my neck of the woods they are calling it an expansion of the residential agreement to include light commercial. The trigger on our's is not $ but SQ FT.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

With all the union non-union heated debates going on here I'm surprised we are not getting more input from the non union guys on this topic. It's going to greatly affect their wages also.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> And I thought it was all about proper Education, training and skill. I'd love to see some of these hacked up jobs.



All in all if looked at deeply and with all the kinks worked out I don't think it is a BAD thing. My local has several divisions within it. It works. How you go about getting or becoming a CE/CW is the question. Picking someone off the the street and basically telling them they are now a CE would be the wrong way to go about it.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> All in all if looked at deeply and with all the kinks worked out I don't think it is a BAD thing. My local has several divisions within it. It works. How you go about getting or becoming a CE/CW is the question. Picking someone off the the street and basically telling them they are now a CE would be the wrong way to go about it.



They have less experience than an apprentice. That should say it all.


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## nitro71 (Sep 17, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> All in all if looked at deeply and with all the kinks worked out I don't think it is a BAD thing. My local has several divisions within it. It works. How you go about getting or becoming a CE/CW is the question. Picking someone off the the street and basically telling them they are now a CE would be the wrong way to go about it.


 
Actually it's about your union screwing you is what it's about. Let's not candy coat this CE/CW thing.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

nitro71 said:


> Actually it's about your union screwing you is what it's about. Let's not candy coat this CE/CW thing.



Candy coat what? This has been in effect in my union long before I was ever born. Matter of fact if I'm not mistaken we've had this going on sometime before WW II. Most if not all other locals never recognized "M" or "MIJ" divisions or divisions similar to those... Works for us.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

14000 hours of documented experience then you can test for Inside Wireman? The program sounds great as long as it has checks in place to prevent abuse, especially in union states where it could tamper with the prevailing wage.

What's the problem? People who are outside the wagons, who are capable, and want to improve themselves, need a ladder to climb. 

Give the worthy a way in, weed out the ones who do us more good working for the competition, and it is a win / win.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Loose Neutral said:


> They have less experience than an apprentice. That should say it all.


A CW might have less experience than an apprentice. If so they are also paid less than a 1st year.

The upper cw's and the ce's have to have verifiable field experience. Documentation from w2's etc. There has been alot of noise in our local about them getting JW jobs. They have been giving some numbers at the meetings about "c" classifications. There are not all that many of them in our local,and they are experiencing similar percentages of unemployment as the rest of the classifications.


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## Loose Neutral (Jun 3, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> A CW might have less experience than an apprentice. If so they are also paid less than a 1st year.
> 
> The upper cw's and the ce's have to have verifiable field experience. Documentation from w2's etc. There has been alot of noise in our local about them getting JW jobs. They have been giving some numbers at the meetings about "c" classifications. There are not all that many of them in our local,and they are experiencing similar percentages of unemployment as the rest of the classifications.




My point is I don't think I would want someone with that level of experience building my project. Our field is very broad with a lot of experience needed and that only comes with time and education.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> 14000 hours of documented experience then you can test for Inside Wireman? The program sounds great as long as it has checks in place to prevent abuse, especially in union states where it could tamper with the prevailing wage.


In our area prevailing wage is set per the "A" scale, the R-wiremen scale does not drag this down.



> What's the problem? People who are outside the wagons, who are capable, and want to improve themselves, need a ladder to climb.


 As long as contractors are not allowed to abuse this program I/WE agree and now I am convinced this program must have flaws. 



> Give the worthy a way in, weed out the ones who do us more good working for the competition, and it is a win / win.


I would guess this is the basic philosophy, if the local keeps an eye on it.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> rather than a CE/CW, the IBEW should really consider tiered JW rates...similar to the apprenticeship scale...for a few reasons...
> 
> 1) typically a 1st yr JW is no better than a 5th yr apprentice, and not nearly as good as a 10 yr JW...
> 
> ...


You and Brian have both made good points. 

I was heavily involved in the organizing effort, and the insight I got coupled with my own nonunion experience prior to joining the IBEW was both revealing and depressing. The fact is, no matter what course of action the IBEW takes to battle for marketshare, the nonunion shops have no problem putting their standards down a peg or two to thwart us.

If we took unemployed A-Journeymen on jobs at 1/2 rate, the nonunion shops would simply tell their men "PAY CUT OR DIE" and the situation would continue on as normal. 

I will not participate in our organizing because it turns out to be a zero sum game. Although I am available for cherrypicking, as that tends to cripple a nonunion shop, at least in a better economy, my local doesn't seem to prefer that route. 

Step-pay for JWs is a double edged sword. Of course a 1st year won't be as good as a 10th year, but isn't a 20 year better than a 10? When do you stop? At some point you have to draw a line, and as it happens the industry has survived just fine when we define JW as having completed the apprenticeship program.

You're leaning towards setting up a situation where you want your men to compete with each other. It is a management tool designed to enrich you, not the workers. Our way is better. Go to work, do the job, get paid, go home. If I have a job tomorrow it's because my work is acceptable. If not, I don't have a job tomorrow. 

And in 19 years I have never detected an iota of apathy between Sr. and Jr. JWs. Because even the senior JWs know THEY got JW rate the day they turned out too.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You and Brian have both made good points.
> 
> I was heavily involved in the organizing effort, and the insight I got coupled with my own nonunion experience prior to joining the IBEW was both revealing and depressing. The fact is, no matter what course of action the IBEW takes to battle for marketshare, the nonunion shops have no problem putting their standards down a peg or two to thwart us.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with what you say.One thing I wouldn't be appose to is splitting the last increase in half.In my local it's almost a $13 per hour increase.A sixth period apprentice is making $35 per hour.Most open shop guy's don't make that.Splitting the last increase in 2 or even 3 I would not be appose to,but then again I know that's not a popular opinion.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> You and Brian have both made good points.
> 
> 
> . Although I am available for cherrypicking, as that tends to cripple a nonunion shop, at least in a better economy, my local doesn't seem to prefer that route.
> o.


I have always thought this was the way to go, constantly pull the best open shop men in and it gets tough for the open shops to operate. A good percentage of my men I hired from open shops.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> I have always thought this was the way to go, constantly pull the best open shop men in and it gets tough for the open shops to operate. A good percentage of my men I hired from open shops.


Absolutely! That is supposed to be how the system operates. That and a lower composite rate should make the union contractors more competitive.

The rank and file often do not see this idea and only consider the "c" 
classifications as someone to "take their job".

However, I do not know of any shop in our area that would work a "c" classification without JW supervision. For that matter, I am fairly sure that the rules of the program from on high require JW supervision.


The real problem in my mind is that recruiting the good guys is naturally harder to do than some slacker. The contractors need to do a better job weeding those guys back out to do something else for a living. Too often, they get bumped to another job instead of laid off or better yet fired.

In my experience, the better workers in the "c" classifications realize quickly that the best thing for them to do is suck it up,join the apprenticeship and go to school to become JW's themselves.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Absolutely! JW supervision.
> 
> 
> The real problem in my mind is that recruiting the good guys is naturally harder to do than some slacker. The contractors need to do a better job weeding those guys back out to do something else for a living. Too often, they get bumped to another job instead of laid off or better yet fired.
> ...


I sat in supply houses and just ran my mouth (something I am good at), I could determine a BS'er from a good guy. Cash, benefits, a quick trip to "A",
(with a upgrade program by the hall) and heads sway. 

Just like getting a good woman you have to wine and dine em, not meet and beat em.

I have never seen an IBEW booth at or near a supply house, might be a good idea, though the supply houses might object.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

My local (102) has a "B" card for small works. I'm not sure where the CE/CW would fit in here.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Agreed. Wine and dine em and everyone might be surprised what could happen.
Could be a real win, win, win for contractors, members, and new members.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

brian john said:


> I have never seen an IBEW booth at or near a supply house, might be a good idea, though the supply houses might object.


About 10 years ago, a guy from 143 used to hang out at supply houses in the area for that very reason. I just checked their web page, and one of the top articles is how to best file for unemployment benefits. :laughing: "I already have a job", I once told him.


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## MDShunk (Jan 7, 2007)

I think it's safe to say that if you find a superstar in an open shop, he's in this trade for the love of electrical work and not for a big payday. If he can still do his electrical work, and have better paydays, then he's as good as organized... probably.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> This is what happens when the republicans raid the piggy bank


That's pretty laughable.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> I agree 100% with what you say.One thing I wouldn't be appose to is splitting the last increase in half.In my local it's almost a $13 per hour increase.A sixth period apprentice is making $35 per hour.Most open shop guy's don't make that.Splitting the last increase in 2 or even 3 I would not be appose to,but then again I know that's not a popular opinion.


Split in 1/2 how, you mean 6th period apprentice at $35.00 an hour, start a 6th year at 41.50 for a year, and JW at $48.00 an hour?

You're basically saying a 1st year JW isn't worth JW wages, because within a couple of years they'll get better. The point is, at the end of 5th year they're supposed to be JW's already. 

Now you know they already stepped up the program from 4 to 5 years. Now you want a 6th. Where will this end? The net result of all this has been less into the workers pocket, so, can you understand where the true motivation really is?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Magnettica said:


> That's pretty laughable.


OK... I'll say it, this is also what happens when the Democrats raid the piggy bank, too.


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Split in 1/2 how, you mean 6th period apprentice at $35.00 an hour, start a 6th year at 41.50 for a year, and JW at $48.00 an hour?
> 
> You're basically saying a 1st year JW isn't worth JW wages, because within a couple of years they'll get better. The point is, at the end of 5th year they're supposed to be JW's already.
> 
> Now you know they already stepped up the program from 4 to 5 years. Now you want a 6th. Where will this end? The net result of all this has been less into the workers pocket, so, can you understand where the true motivation really is?


Yeah,I didn't really think about like that.6 years of apprenticeship is to long.With work being slow I'm seeing a lot of young J-man being laid off as soon as they top out.I guess it wouldn't matter if the increase was split or not."Younger" guy's are always going to be considered "not as good" in the contractors eye's.I stand corrected......


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah,I didn't really think about like that.6 years of apprenticeship is to long.With work being slow I'm seeing a lot of young J-man being laid off as soon as they top out.I guess it wouldn't matter if the increase was split or not."Younger" guy's are always going to be considered "not as good" in the contractors eye's.I stand corrected......


6 years... that pretty much sums what we have in Local 3. You start out as an apprentice and do your 2 years as an MIJ. Which, like I said before, sounds very much like the CE classification. MIJ's in our local are considered journey persons within the IBEW. We have MIJ/M jobs and apprentices are able to work on those jobs. There are even two rates of pay for our MIJ's. 


If all the kinks are worked out and certain criteria is put in place I see no harm in this. 

Unless I missed something in the last few posts I'm not really sure what the problem is lawnguy?

Of course it would be interesting to see what would become of our MIJ classification if the CE/CW is implemented within our local. :confused1:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

Yah, the local should smoke the new JW's who turned out, then bring on another class load of apprentices to do the menial tasks for dirt-cheap.

Then the few truly capable JW's who turned out, can stay to take the place of the few retired folk, who weren't already replaced by organized hands.

-----

Sounds awfully cynical to say the above... but its there in the back of the mind.

What if the construction economy continues to slowly shrink forever? Amercia is on the decline. We're not building factories anymore. Have you seen what the norm is today in kids coming out of high school?


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## slickvic277 (Feb 5, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> 6 years... that pretty much sums what we have in Local 3. You start out as an apprentice and do your 2 years as an MIJ. Which, like I said before, sounds very much like the CE classification. MIJ's in our local are considered journey persons within the IBEW. We have MIJ/M jobs and apprentices are able to work on those jobs. There are even two rates of pay for our MIJ's.
> 
> 
> If all the kinks are worked out and certain criteria is put in place I see no harm in this.
> ...



We don't have anything like that.No "B" ticket,no "mij",no lesser classification.We have been very successful without it.But out in the counties we lose small jobs to the non union because there labor is cheaper.I would like to see us get more of that work without a "small jobs" agreement or lesser classification.I know one thing ce/cw would not go over well here.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

slickvic277 said:


> Yeah,I didn't really think about like that.6 years of apprenticeship is to long.With work being slow I'm seeing a lot of young J-man being laid off as soon as they top out.I guess it wouldn't matter if the increase was split or not."Younger" guy's are always going to be considered "not as good" in the contractors eye's.I stand corrected......


Keep in mind, even a younger Jman can be useful. For instance, I have 2 experienced gentlemen doing a particularily tight and complicated electrical service in PVC coated galv. I got 2 younger J-men who are like bulls in a china shop working on 4" in a tunnel... 

There's a place for everyone.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

I don't think the ce/cw is going to be required of us. Local 3 has given the Bronx cheer to other one-size fits all solutions dictated by the international. 

If implemented, another classification would simply be a process of organizing those working in the outer boroughs, and on small work and on residential, and still wouldn't effect A work. Thewre would be no intermingling of ce/cw members or on jobsites.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I don't think the ce/cw is going to be required of us. Local 3 has given the Bronx cheer to other one-size fits all solutions dictated by the international.


YOU SAID



> There's a place for everyone.


Seems like you keep sticking you foot in your mouth


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> YOU SAID
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you keep sticking you foot in your mouth


Not at all, there's a place for ce/cw... like I said.

And what works in Virginia might not in NYC. I think even you can appreciate that.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Not at all, there's a place for ce/cw... like I said.
> 
> And what works in Virginia might not in NYC. I think even you can appreciate that.



I agree, in NYC you might rough them up? DC IBEW electricians are supposedly meeting to protest the CE program.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> I agree, in NYC you might rough them up? DC IBEW electricians are supposedly meeting to protest the CE program.


Good luck with that. The ce/cw directive is from the top, I doubt they will be interested in complaints. International has seen some results gaining market share in the south and this is part of the program.

How many ce/cw's are working out of 26? Do you work any?


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

So to the local 3 guys, I saw the thing on the mij's the other week that lawnguy posted. What is an mij and how does it work?
Like lawnguy said, it is different with 3 so it is interesting to see how other systems work.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

s.kelly said:


> Good luck with that. The ce/cw directive is from the top, I doubt they will be interested in complaints. International has seen some results gaining market share in the south and this is part of the program.


 Local 3 has never listened to the IO before, I don't see how it will be any different now.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Good luck with that. The ce/cw directive is from the top, I doubt they will be interested in complaints. International has seen some results gaining market share in the south and this is part of the program.
> 
> How many ce/cw's are working out of 26? Do you work any?


I do not have any working for me, I am not even sure this is in effect at this time.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

26 is the local I was talking about there. Local 3 would probably not be a good candidate, since they already have pretty good market share. Not as many people to try and organize into being ce or cw. And no, they are not nearly as likely as others locals to listen to any "mandate" anyway.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Local 3 has never listened to the IO before, I don't see how it will be any different now.






Never seems to amaze...


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

s.kelly said:


> 26 is the local I was talking about there. Local 3 would probably not be a good candidate, since they already have pretty good market share. Not as many people to try and organize into being ce or cw. And no, they are not nearly as likely as others locals to listen to any "mandate" anyway.



But this is what I've been saying all along. We have our "MIJ's" and "M" divisions.

I'll explain it briefly...

MIJ's are electricians that go through the program. You have to go through your apprenticeship. Then you take a test to become MIJ. The IO recognizes MIJ's as being journey persons.

"M" workers are pretty much in the same classification as MIJ's. "M" workers usually come from shops that were organized. There are also "M" helpers. 

Think of it this way. Electricians that go through the program are part of the A division.

Those who do not are part of the M division.

In the "A" division it's like this:

- Apprentice (years 1 through 4)
- MIJ (years 5 through 6)
- "A" Journey Person

In the "M" divsion it's like this:

- "M" Helper (years 1-4) (doesn't not attend school and their rates differ from "A" apprentices.
- "M" @ MIJ rate (I believe they stay at this rate for 3 years)
- "M" @ "A" rate.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

brian john said:


> I do not have any working for me, I am not even sure this is in effect at this time.


 I guess that makes sense, that why they are having the meeting or whatever. It has been in effect here for quite a while. Not really that many ce or cw's out there. Big meeting when it went into effect, lots of people upset. Still comes up some.

From what I hear it is not all that different from the "r" program 26 already has.


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## s.kelly (Mar 20, 2009)

Chris21 said:


> But this is what I've been saying all along. We have our "MIJ's" and "M" divisions.
> 
> I'll explain it briefly...
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks. Guess I am surprised to hear that much organizing goes on there. I thought you all had a pretty good market share, and there will always be some that no way will be union.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> Never seems to amaze...


Lol, why cry? Don't be sad, life could be worse.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I can understand whole-heartedly implementing the C program... in a local that has low market share. 

What is the purpose via the Market Recovery Fund? Use market recovery on the big jobs, and the C program on the small ones?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Lol, why cry? Don't be sad, life could be worse.



Ahhh... so typical.

arty:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> Ahhh... so typical.
> 
> arty:


Of what? I think you lost me.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

brian john said:


> I agree, in NYC you might rough them up? DC IBEW electricians are supposedly meeting to protest the CE program.


Why would you even suggest that? I defy you to find any evidence of physical violence related to IBEW local 3. And I mean against humans, not that one time when one of us punched that police horse.


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why would you even suggest that? I defy you to find any evidence of physical violence related to IBEW local 3. And I mean against humans, not that one time when one of us punched that police horse.


 :laughing::laughing:


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why would you even suggest that? I defy you to find any evidence of physical violence related to IBEW local 3. And I mean against humans, not that one time when one of us punched that police horse.


To continue discussing what we were talking about in the other thread, I had a local 3 shop steward threaten me with physical violence when I refused to put my strippers back in my truck which was in a parking garage 9 blocks away.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Why would you even suggest that? I defy you to find any evidence of physical violence related to IBEW local 3. And I mean against humans, not that one time when one of us punched that police horse.



Yeah that was a memorable moment. What the hell was that guy thinking? :icon_eek:

Didn't that make the front page of the Daily News?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

s.kelly said:


> Good luck with that. The ce/cw directive is from the top, I doubt they will be interested in complaints. International has seen some results gaining market share in the south and this is part of the program.
> 
> How many ce/cw's are working out of 26? Do you work any?


Ya... another "directive from the top" is the 4-book system. We don't do that either. But like I said, organizing those basic "installers" doing small work wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But just the very thought of adding health & welfare to their current pay of about $10.00-12.00 an hour is enough to make those nonunion contractors throw up blood.

Our MIJs are basically 5th year apprentices who work for 18 months at 1/2 pay Journeymen, on small jobs like storefronts and service work. They are not permitted to do this on A work or inside A buildings.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> But this is what I've been saying all along. We have our "MIJ's" and "M" divisions.
> 
> I'll explain it briefly...
> 
> ...


Correction - "M" helpers must test up to the next level and there is no set time for an M helper to advance one level. I've known M helpers who have been 2nd year M helper for years who cannot pass the 3rd year test. 

M @ MIJ rate is at least 3 years, or until the A test is offered.

M @ A-rate occurs ONLY when a contractor is organized and that contractor decrees who his journeymen are - and keeps them employed at A-rate for a specified time, which I've never seen as less than 2 years. Typically these contractors are doing PW work and have to pay them A-rate anyway.

M helpers who advance to M-Mij rate get a regular A-card when they pass the A exam, though this might have been done differently in the past.


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Ya... another "directive from the top" is the 4-book system. We don't do that either. But like I said, organizing those basic "installers" doing small work wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But just the very thought of adding health & welfare to their current pay of about $10.00-12.00 an hour is enough to make those nonunion contractors throw up blood.
> 
> Our MIJs are basically 5th year apprentices who work for 18 months at 1/2 pay Journeymen, on small jobs like storefronts and service work. They are not permitted to do this on A work or inside A buildings.



I thought they had to do 2 full years as MIJ's? As per our last contract? And the rate is actually less than half than A rate. The first year as MIJ is one rate... the second year is another rate.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I can understand whole-heartedly implementing the C program... in a local that has low market share.
> 
> What is the purpose via the Market Recovery Fund? Use market recovery on the big jobs, and the C program on the small ones?


It's probably no suprise to you that there are some contractors out there with guys working for little more than minimum wage. They're doing data, low voltage work and small fitouts. It seems the CE/CW program simply organizes them but does not better their standards, does not educate, doesn't provide benefits or pension, just adds numbers to the local's roster.

No amount of market recovery can combat these bottom of the barrel fly-by-nights. I stated in a previous post, whenever the local institutes a competitive program, nonunion simply lowers the bar anyway. I suppose they figure if we start at the bottom, there's nowhere to go but up?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> To continue discussing what we were talking about in the other thread, I had a local 3 shop steward threaten me with physical violence when I refused to put my strippers back in my truck which was in a parking garage 9 blocks away.


I can't believe you'd park that far... :whistling2:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Yeah that was a memorable moment. What the hell was that guy thinking? :icon_eek:
> 
> Didn't that make the front page of the Daily News?


It has been suggested that we should never trust the news to ever get the story quite right. I'm going with that...


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I stated in a previous post, whenever the local institutes a competitive program, nonunion simply lowers the bar anyway. I suppose they figure if we start at the bottom, there's nowhere to go but up?


Yea.. thats right.. NON-UNION shops are fuking up the works for everyone. :no:

Were you always such a bitter man??


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I can't believe you'd park that far... :whistling2:


They only gave us $15 per day to park, I had to find a cheap garage.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> I thought they had to do 2 full years as MIJ's? As per our last contract? And the rate is actually less than half than A rate. The first year as MIJ is one rate... the second year is another rate.


You're right. Sorry but I'm out of the loop in that I haven't seen an apprentice for over 3 years. It was extended and the rate split in the last contract. Or was it 6 years ago?


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> Yea.. thats right.. NON-UNION shops are fuking up the works for everyone. :no:
> 
> Were you always such a bitter man??


 
Well Black, put it in perspective...

Many contractors here lament how the industry is going cut-throat, too much competition, and decry the sidejobbers and handymen cutting into their marketshare...

Isn't that what you are to us?


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## william1978 (Sep 21, 2008)

Forgery said:


> They only gave us $15 per day to park, I had to find a cheap garage.


 The company that I work for right now isn't paying for parking at all. I'm just glad I have a parking pass.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well Black, put it in perspective...
> 
> Many contractors here lament how the industry is going cut-throat, too much competition, and decry the sidejobbers and handymen cutting into their marketshare...
> 
> Isn't that what you are to us?


B4T works well :thumbsup:

Again you are mixing apples and oranges. :no:

Sidejobbers and handymen are not legit businesses. 

NON-UNION shops are legit and carry almost all the necessary things you big boys carry.

We just don't pay dues so your rep can stroke some politician at a dinner dance.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

Black4Truck said:


> handymen are not legit businesses.


Sure they are.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Sure they are.


Here, you can't do electrical work without a license.

This is the law for most places in the tri-state area


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Well Black, put it in perspective...
> 
> Many contractors here lament how the industry is going cut-throat, too much competition, and decry the sidejobbers and handymen cutting into their marketshare...
> 
> Isn't that what you are to us?


it's a vicious cycle, many small 1-3 man shops have made a nice living on resi service work...much of that is being done by out of work union men these days...everyone knows an out of work union electrician or plumber...so, the small contractors step up to the next level out of necessity and f' that market up...the whole thing moves up the food chain...causing more laid off union men...causing less resi service work...and so on and so forth...


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

I feel a distinction must be made:

Is a one-man shop a self-employed electrician?

Or a full-on contractor?

What number of employees is the threshold between the two,
One helper?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I feel a distinction must be made:
> 
> Is a one-man shop a self-employed electrician?
> 
> ...



contractor |ˈkänˌtraktər|
noun
a person or company that undertakes a contract to provide materials or labor to perform a service or do a job.


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## B4T (Feb 10, 2009)

miller_elex said:


> I feel a distinction must be made:
> 
> Is a one-man shop a self-employed electrician?
> 
> ...


I am a one man band, but I work for the company.

When you stop thinking you are an employee, you start losing money.


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

Chris21 said:


> I thought they had to do 2 full years as MIJ's? As per our last contract? And the rate is actually less than half than A rate. The first year as MIJ is one rate... the second year is another rate.


PBJ's for two full years? You have got to be kidding me! Not even a roast beef or ham and cheese?

Forget that!

.............Anybody have some Frito's?


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

milehiwire said:


> PBJ's for two full years? You have got to be kidding me! Not even a roast beef or ham and cheese?
> 
> Forget that!
> 
> .............Anybody have some Frito's?


:blink:

PBJ's? If you're thinking your M's are P's and your I's are B's you should probably look into getting your self checked by an eye doctor.


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Black4Truck said:


> B4T works well :thumbsup:
> 
> Again you are mixing apples and oranges. :no:
> 
> ...


Dues don't go to politicians, that's COPE funds, and they're voluntary. .50 cents per pay period. AFAIC nonunion shops aren't "legitimate" businesses either, not when you can pick up Mexicans at the Farmingville 7-11 and have them drill holes for you. Not when you can have 20 helpers and no Journeymen on a jobsite. 

Keep in mind Black, I live in Suffolk and have worked nonunion for a few contractors... you all play the same game. I have a tenant who works for Cross and another who works for Wanaka... and the game hasn't changed since the 80's. I'm not talking out of my ass. You are, in a word, justifying...


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

oldman said:


> it's a vicious cycle, many small 1-3 man shops have made a nice living on resi service work...much of that is being done by out of work union men these days...everyone knows an out of work union electrician or plumber...so, the small contractors step up to the next level out of necessity and f' that market up...the whole thing moves up the food chain...causing more laid off union men...causing less resi service work...and so on and so forth...


Totally accurate!


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> Dues don't go to politicians, that's COPE funds, and they're voluntary.


Let's be honest with each other, COPE is taken out no matter what. You do have the option to go get that money reimbursed to you, but the last guy who did that is suing the local because he's been sitting on the referral list for over 4 years :laughing:


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I feel a distinction must be made:
> 
> Is a one-man shop a self-employed electrician?
> 
> ...


I'm gonna chime in (suprise suprise) and say when I say contractor I'm not talking about 480Sparky, or any other one-man bands, I mean supposed businessmen who hire people to do the work... and sit in their office and count money...


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## Chris21 (Nov 25, 2009)

Forgery said:


> Let's be honest with each other, COPE is taken out no matter what. You do have the option to go get that money reimbursed to you, but the last guy who did that is suing the local because he's been sitting on the referral list for over 4 years :laughing:



Actually no. You have to sign a card stating that you agree to pay COPE. You have a choice. As a matter of fact I knew a few that do not have it taken it out. Only journey persons have the option to pay COPE. 

So there it is... I'm being honest with you.


----------



## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Forgery said:


> Let's be honest with each other, COPE is taken out no matter what. You do have the option to go get that money reimbursed to you, but the last guy who did that is suing the local because he's been sitting on the referral list for over 4 years :laughing:


The wait for work isn't that long, and yes, they're voluntary. Keep in mind we have almost 14 THOUSAND journeymen in our local, and a lot of them know other's phone numbers... the local could never get away with holding a man out because they don't volunteer for COPE. You cannot volunteer to give .50 a week to cope and then sue the local because you don't have a job. Anybody can sue for anything...


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## milehiwire (Feb 21, 2010)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I'm gonna chime in (suprise suprise) and say when I say contractor I'm not talking about 480Sparky, or any other one-man bands, I mean supposed businessmen who hire people to do the work... and sit in their office and count money...


If it were only that easy.............


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## LGLS (Nov 10, 2007)

Chris21 said:


> Actually no. You have to sign a card stating that you agree to pay COPE. You have a choice. As a matter of fact I knew a few that do not have it taken it out. Only journey persons have the option to pay COPE.
> 
> So there it is... I'm being honest with you.


It's still OK to say "journeymen..."


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I mean supposed businessmen who hire people to do the work... and sit in their office and count money...


I hardly sit on my ass counting money (though I am a small shop) and the large EC's I worked for hardly were sitting on their butt's counting money. They were trying to get other work, developing other business, that employee workers. DO they enjoy their life, I HOPE SO, do they live better than employees, I HOPE SO. But sitting on their asses, not for long if they want to remain successful. 

You seem to have this idea that workers could support themselves without management, some could and do as small and one man shops. But most could not succeed with out management, just as management could not succeed without the workers. Both are needed, both are necessary, and to not realize this, puts you in LALA land somewhere.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

LawnGuyLandSparky said:


> I mean supposed businessmen who hire people to do the work... and sit in their office and count money...


That's where I was going.... MBA executives and shareholders.

I am all for small enterprise, and being self-employed, but it is the scoundrels half-ways in between that provide no pension and no health benefits that are dragging the rest of us down.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> That's where I was going.... MBA executives and shareholders.
> 
> I am all for small enterprise, and being self-employed, but it is the scoundrels half-ways in between that provide no pension and no health benefits that are dragging the rest of us down.



Those MBA's and shareholder's allow for the development of large jobs, capital for funding new business, retirement funds and the fueling of an economy with a population that needs more than agrarian workers.


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

My pappy always said "a good line of bull**** is worth two toolboxes". Unfortunately, my pappy had 3 toolboxes and a bad line of bull****.


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## Forgery (Mar 6, 2010)

oldman said:


> My pappy always said "a good line of bull**** is worth two toolboxes". Unfortunately, my pappy had 3 toolboxes and a bad line of bull****.


:stupid:


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

brian john said:


> Those MBA's and shareholder's allow for the development of large jobs, capital for funding new business, retirement funds and the fueling of an economy with a population that needs more than agrarian workers.


I can't disagree with that statement. Were you looking for an argument?

What I like about electricians, is the field draws the most intelligent of people, who are not academically minded, out from society. The work pays well, it is interesting, and the scenery changes frequently. Most all electricians are easy to get along with, with some exceptions, and love their jobs.

Now when that group of people colludes in what is called collective bargaining, and all members (non-union too,) of the group benefit, why is it derided?

Why can't we have lawyers too? And pensions and health benefits? We've got a good thing going for electricians in this country, if you think otherwise, look around the world. Good Phillippino electricians working away from their families for years at a time make $3 an hour. They are not stupid, and they work very hard. They often have a trade school degree, from a school more difficult than ours. They speak and read multiple languages. Now show me a contractor who wants to pay that man what he is worth, when no law in an international zone says he has to be paid anything at all. 

If ABC Electric were allowed to bring those men in on visas by the plane load and house them in tents, would we not be called fat lazy americans who don't want to work for a living? Where's Bob Badger when I need a pep talk about unfettered capitalism?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

miller_elex said:


> I can't disagree with that statement. Were you looking for an argument?


Not not at all


What I like about our field is a wide range of thing to do, there is always something to learn, something different. If you get bored move on to a new aspect of the trade.


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