# When does Metal Halide Become Uneconomic?



## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Just ordered a few mogul base LED lamps to replace 250w and 400w MH lamps in existing hi-bay fixtures. Need to disconnect or remove ballast. Will let you know the outcome in the next couple of weeks. They're not cheap. I am going to give a customer a couple to try out. Maybe redo whole plant if lighting is equal or even close.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

SteveBayshore said:


> Just ordered a few mogul base LED lamps to replace 250w and 400w MH lamps in existing hi-bay fixtures. Need to disconnect or remove ballast. Will let you know the outcome in the next couple of weeks. They're not cheap. I am going to give a customer a couple to try out. Maybe redo whole plant if lighting is equal or even close.


 
Steve.,

Do you have any chance that you have a link of that lamp manufacter as you describing it ??

Merci,
Marc


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

SteveBayshore said:


> Just ordered a few mogul base LED lamps to replace 250w and 400w MH lamps in existing hi-bay fixtures. Need to disconnect or remove ballast. Will let you know the outcome in the next couple of weeks. They're not cheap. I am going to give a customer a couple to try out. Maybe redo whole plant if lighting is equal or even close.


 
Do you have the manufacturer link? Im interested to!


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Here is one......

http://1000bulbs.com/product/94219/...BaseShopping&gclid=CNXU3feojrkCFYKi4AodCXkAFA


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## farlsincharge (Dec 31, 2010)

Cold storage with little use - metal halide
Indoors regular use - t5
Indoors hard to access, hazardous locations, freezers, arenas, exterior lighting - LED

This is what I have decided on recently. Just finished two indoor LED jobs this week. A 20 ft ceiling and a 16ft ceiling. It is a totally different animal to work with I am finding. The light is "different", and a direct comparison with a light meter is useless.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

The manufacturer's rep is "olympic-lighting.com", the manufacturer is "LEDiTEK". I installed one 40w LED which is suposed to replace a 250w MH but I wasn't satisfied with the light. I just ordered a 60w LED which is listed to replace a 400w MH. They have 120 to 277 volt smart ballasts. The 40w lamp cost me $186.20, not sure how much the 60w will cost. I think that they also listed a 100w LED.
They are labeled as utilizing CREE technology components.


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## Cletis (Aug 20, 2010)

long burn times, high energy rates, cold environments, and cash to pay for LED


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

they claim the led's last forever, yet here in the NY I see red and green traffic lights with a 1/4 of the led's not working. I do not think they can handle the cold environment or constant on/off cycling JMO


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## chrisfnl (Sep 13, 2010)

I'd love to see an "autopsy"... wonder if it's the LEDs dying or the solder joints breaking... may just be a manufacturing defect in the lights they're using.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

*Weight*



SteveBayshore said:


> Just ordered a few mogul base LED lamps to replace 250w and 400w MH lamps in existing hi-bay fixtures. Need to disconnect or remove ballast. Will let you know the outcome in the next couple of weeks. They're not cheap. I am going to give a customer a couple to try out. Maybe redo whole plant if lighting is equal or even close.


 I like the idea. Never knew they existed. Are they heavy? Do they put a lot of strain on the lampholder? I wonder if doing something like this would break down the fixture listing?


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

te12co2w said:


> I like the idea. Never knew they existed. Are they heavy? Do they put a lot of strain on the lampholder? I wonder if doing something like this would break down the fixture listing?


They don't weigh much more than the regular MH lamp. Still waiting on the delivery of the 60w lamp.


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## l0sts0ul (May 7, 2011)

Just so you know (Canadians that is). If you remove the ballast and install anything else that does not match the CSA tag on the fixture, you are violating the CSA Approval, and are therefore not allowed to install or use it. 

You would have to get the fixture to be re CSA approved.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

HARRY304E said:


> Here is one......
> http://1000bulbs.com/product/94219/...BaseShopping&gclid=CNXU3feojrkCFYKi4AodCXkAFA


 
$500 for an LED retrofit is pretty pricey.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

Just got the 120w LED lamp this morning. I think it cost me $312.00. Will be installing it as a sample tomorrow. Here is a pic of the 120w lamp.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

Is that going to light the floor from 25' up above ??


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## Service Call (Jul 9, 2011)

I can never read the yellow part of the poll on my phone. But since no one picked that wattage I guess it doesn't matter.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

as to the question of product to believe in down the road? so far i dont see anything that lives up to their claims. may only be due cheap mfg processes!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

There is still no data available on long term longevity of LED's which is why I won't recommend or install them.


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## noarcflash (Sep 14, 2011)

RAB has some new technology. I haven't tried it out yet.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

How are the LED's working out ?


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

Nothing simplier than a classic incandesent light bulb. Glass globe with a filament.No frills.


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## TGGT (Oct 28, 2012)

Why not go inductive lighting?


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

LEDs keep getting better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper.


Lower demand means less wire derating smaller conduit smaller switch gear... I suspect great things in the future from LED.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

SteveBayshore said:


> The manufacturer's rep is "olympic-lighting.com", the manufacturer is "LEDiTEK". I installed one 40w LED which is suposed to replace a 250w MH but I wasn't satisfied with the light. I just ordered a 60w LED which is listed to replace a 400w MH. They have 120 to 277 volt smart ballasts. The 40w lamp cost me $186.20, not sure how much the 60w will cost. I think that they also listed a 100w LED.
> They are labeled as utilizing CREE technology components.


interesting company....>

http://www.cree.com/Lighting/Products/Outdoor/Flood/THE-EDGE-High-Output-Flood


biggest LED area lights i've found so far


anyone bought or/and install CREE?

~CS~


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## five.five-six (Apr 9, 2013)

In the aquarium hobby, specifically live corral propagation, LED lighting has absolutely dominated over metal halide and VHO over the last few years. It's cutting edge stuff, but these guys are obsessed with duplicating sunlight at the lowest possible cost per lumen in dollars and in heat.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

five.five-six said:


> In the aquarium hobby, specifically live corral propagation, LED lighting has absolutely dominated over metal halide and VHO over the last few years. It's cutting edge stuff, but these guys are obsessed with duplicating sunlight at the lowest possible cost per lumen in dollars and in heat.


Just wait until you see the adjustable, programmable UV LED's for agricultural grow houses.....(green house)

You will be able to adjust the UV levels, to help plant growth.

As far as them corn cob bulbs from an above post, you can have them. They are worthless unless you put them in Acorn fixtures or bulb down applications, and then, they still suck.......

For the price of them bulbs, you can buy light engines and drivers, and retrofit your own for a lot less, and get better results.


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## SteveBayshore (Apr 7, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> interesting company....>
> anyone bought or/and install CREE?


I just got a call from the customer that I installed the 65 watt LED for. Three to four weeks old, ten hours a day, stopped working three days ago. Called supplier and they are getting me a replacement lamp. Now I have to go back and replace the lamp and eat the labor to do it.
One out of three lamps is not a good average for defective lamps, especially on 25'+ ceilings.
Not recommending these anymore until I can prove better results. 
I have installed about 20 LED floodlight fixtures from E-cono-light and haven't had any problems with them yet. Only been about three months though.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

well i feel a _lo_t better about Econolight now Steve....:thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Kiknads (Nov 30, 2012)

I've spent the last couple weeks installing these

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...ucts/outdoor_wall_mount_lighting/_269859.html

getting great feedback from the end users


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## doublejelectric (Jan 23, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> interesting company....> http://www.cree.com/Lighting/Products/Outdoor/Flood/THE-EDGE-High-Output-Flood biggest LED area lights i've found so far anyone bought or/and install CREE? ~CS~


I've installed a few and man they are bright. It's only been a few months so we will see.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

five.five-six said:


> LEDs keep getting better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper better and cheaper and better and cheaper.
> 
> 
> Lower demand means less wire derating smaller conduit smaller switch gear... I suspect great things in the future from LED.


I don't see how any of this is good for us as electricians.

smaller conduit = less money

smaller switch gear = less money

LED fixtures = no servicing of lamps/ballast (less money)


Every time I go to a regular customer site and remove an HID fixture to replace it with an LED, I just screwed myself out of future work. We spend a decent amount of time servicing lighting. Changing lamps and ballasts is some of the easiest, routine service work we do. It's basically guaranteed, recurring income, that we will no longer have once LED's take over everywhere.

I hate LED. It's contributing to putting us all out of work. As much as I hate being an electrician I still need the paycheck for now, and I don't need to be working myself out of a job.

/rant


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I talked to a mass state highway electrician about the LEDs in traffic lights killing his job.

He pretty much laughed at me and told me he still has plenty of LED failures. 

In the last couple of months we have installed well over 2000 LED fixtures, right now I already have about 20 in my truck that have died and a few locations to go back to.


The other thing I see happening in new construction is adding LEDs to areas that normally have no lights. Like hand rails, steps, decorative architectural features etc.

I really do not see LEDs killing our jobs.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Yeah, I'm with the more work crowd.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

TGGT said:


> Why not go inductive lighting?


Inductive lighting sux, they replaced all the 70 watt HPS to 80 watt Induction on my block, much less light.


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## 10492 (Jan 4, 2010)

Shockdoc said:


> Inductive lighting sux, they replaced all the 70 watt HPS to 80 watt Induction on my block, much less light.


70W HPS wallpack can easily be replaced with a 35W Induction and be brighter.

A 80W Induction replacing a 70W HPS has to be double the light output.

My guess is the info is wrong, or the installation is wrong.


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## EBFD6 (Aug 17, 2008)

BBQ said:


> I talked to a mass state highway electrician about the LEDs in traffic lights killing his job.
> 
> He pretty much laughed at me and told me he still has plenty of LED failures.
> 
> ...


That's good to hear.

I haven't run into any LED failure calls yet, but hopefully they will happen. LED's seem to be cost prohibitive, the only benefits being lower energy consumption coupled with being "maintenance free". If LED's can't deliver on the claims made of 100,000's of hours of maintenance free operation I foresee problems in the future for LED usage, unless of course the prices come down to earth to make them a little more competitive with HID and fluorescent technology.

I do see the benefits in the specialty areas that you described, such as hand rails, stair treads, door jambs, decorative/accent lighting. LED's can be squeezed into spaces previously unable to have lighting installed.


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## Spark Master (Jul 3, 2012)

I'm all for technology. And customers like it. There are 10 zillion HID lamps out there, and they job market isn't drying up from LED's. You'll be dead 300 years before LED's are common place.


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## robmac85 (Nov 20, 2013)

anyone bought or/and install CREE?

~CS~[/QUOTE]

I just got done installing over 300 CREE LED high hats and prob 500 sylvania PAR 38 LED's in track lighting in a JC Penny remodel. I like the light they put out, looks real nice and clean. Didn't have a single defective high hat, but I did have about half a dozen of the PAR 38's that were blinking. Not too bad considering the numbers. With incandecents, CFLs or metal halide I always find myself with several lamps out within a few days of install on larger jobs.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

I am with the induction sucks crowd. Sorry


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

MTW said:


> There is still no data available on long term longevity of LED's which is why I won't recommend or install them.


This is my issue with LED's. I remember the earlier days of CFLs. I still get plenty of "9 year bulbs" that fail in the first few months.

I made a similar argument against HVLS fans when they first became a "fad". Sure enough, plenty of installations that opted for them in favor of conventional (quality) industrial fans have had no end of repair issues.


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I also remember when electronic ballasts for linear fluorescents had a high failure rate.

When LEDs get to where CFLs are now, in terms of cost vs. quality, I will use them wholeheartedly.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

dspiffy said:


> I also remember when electronic ballasts for linear fluorescents had a high failure rate.
> 
> When LEDs get to where CFLs are now, in terms of cost vs. quality, I will use them wholeheartedly.


wow! thats like sayin blue is the same as red


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

Which statement are you referring to?


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Since entergy has decided to pull Vermont's nuke plug, the state green machine is auditing every mom & pop shop they can

They not only have a KW saving calc, they also present with cost of material, as well as cost of labor

I'm quickly finding, through cross checks, they are less than the_ retro Nostradamus' _they present themselves to be

They_ (the state dept of energy)_ are also endlessly running their tax paid pie holes with manufacturers verbatim information

Anyone who's been in this trade for a spell can attest to our manufacturers penchant for foisting the greatness of any new widget on it's debut

Myself i've concluded LED's less than the shining pinnacle of energy salvation, they are expensive, have problems that should have been ironed out in R&D before their marketing, and have resulted in numerous callbacks , as well as a few recalls (posted on ET btw)

The morale of my rant? when others run....walk....





:whistling2::thumbup::laughing:~CS~


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Spark Master said:


> I'm all for technology. And customers like it. There are 10 zillion HID lamps out there, and they job market isn't drying up from LED's. You'll be dead 300 years before LED's are common place.


:blink:


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## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

Spark Master said:


> I'm all for technology. And customers like it. There are 10 zillion HID lamps out there, and they job market isn't drying up from LED's. You'll be dead 300 years before LED's are common place.


Do you live under a rock?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

BBQ said:


> ...The other thing I see happening in new construction is adding LEDs to areas that normally have no lights. Like hand rails, steps, decorative architectural features etc....


 It always makes me laugh when I hear about "energy efficient lighting" because it's been demonstrated that when people know it's energy efficient, they use a whole lot more of it than they would've if they knew it was costing them a ton. 

"Yeah, these LEDs would've saved us a ton of money if we hadn't installed 10x more of them than was necessary!" :laughing:


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Big John said:


> It always makes me laugh when I hear about "energy efficient lighting" because it's been demonstrated that when people know it's energy efficient, they use a whole lot more of it than they would've if they knew it was costing them a ton.
> 
> "Yeah, these LEDs would've saved us a ton of money if we hadn't installed 10x more of them than was necessary!" :laughing:


Bingo!


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## MTW (Aug 28, 2013)

Big John said:


> It always makes me laugh when I hear about "energy efficient lighting" because it's been demonstrated that when people know it's energy efficient, they use a whole lot more of it than they would've if they knew it was costing them a ton.
> 
> "Yeah, these LEDs would've saved us a ton of money if we hadn't installed 10x more of them than was necessary!" :laughing:


I wonder how many people leave their CFL's on all the time for the very same reason?


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

MTW said:


> I wonder how many people leave their CFL's on all the time for the very same reason?


I do this. Both at my house and my job I have CFLs (and so far, one LED) that stay on 24/7 because they only use 23 watts or less (most 13 or less, and last forever. Would I have as many, or any, "security lights" if I was limited to incandescents? I honestly cant say, I cant remember a time without SOME form of energy saving/long life bulbs and/or fixtures.


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

they last forever? no one told me that!


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## dspiffy (Nov 25, 2013)

I have an 1980s preheat CFL somewhere at my parents house still operating today. It's astonishingly heavy.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Big John said:


> It always makes me laugh when I hear about "energy efficient lighting" because it's been demonstrated that when people know it's energy efficient, they use a whole lot more of it than they would've if they knew it was costing them a ton.
> 
> "Yeah, these LEDs would've saved us a ton of money if we hadn't installed 10x more of them than was necessary!" :laughing:


Then there's the % of efficient lighting fixtures to rebate ratio.

Here we have 6000 sq ft ski bunny McMansions that, despite their huge energy hog chandeliers, qualify due to closets and other such nook & cranny installs meeting the state's requirements

~CS~


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## bigmiketino (Feb 28, 2012)

SteveBayshore said:


> Just got the 120w LED lamp this morning. I think it cost me $312.00. Will be installing it as a sample tomorrow. Here is a pic of the 120w lamp.


Any more info on this bulb looking to add these to a warehouse.


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