# Smart meter conspiracy theory?



## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Sonny1027 said:


> We know where you are and what you are doing!
> 
> http://goldsilver.com/video/smart-meters/


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

He was careful, he implied things but I don't think he actually lied about anything.

He said 'they know when you turn you toothbrush on' 

Well, assuming a plugged in tooth brush they could tell you ran something that was 5 watts for 30 seconds at 7AM but they would not 'know' it was an electric toothbrush or a night light.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I agree with this guy:thumbsup: Hes on to something.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

He should be selling PowerSavers and Perpetual Motion machines.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

480sparky said:


> He should be selling PowerSavers and Perpetual Motion machines.


Those guys lie, did this guy?

Those guys try to sell you something, did this guy?

I am just not seeing the similarities. I still think he may be a real flake. :laughing:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BBQ said:


> Those guys lie, did this guy?
> 
> Those guys try to sell you something, did this guy?
> 
> I am just not seeing the similarities. I still think he may be a real flake. :laughing:


I didn't say anything about lying.

I'm simply saying he could make a ton of money plugging stuff that doesn't work as promised.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I didn't say anything about lying.
> 
> I'm simply saying he could make a ton of money plugging stuff that doesn't work as promised.


I have to switch to another room with a more modern machine than my favorite old mac classic 2 to watch a video, but if this is the guy who I think it is from the link, he is making a ton of money in gold and silver sales already.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

Apparently installing these meters on your house will allow the government to track your every move every second throughout the day. It's really disturbing to see how many of the Youtube commenters for that video seem to believe that. 

It always makes me feel good when I realize these people vote in our elections.
:hang:

-John


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I guess if you have a grow room, the meters are going to get you. Clearly the information could be abused, but I don't think too many criminals are going to spend their time looking for people to steal from by analyzing their power usage patterns. However, I think that overall usage and the film footage from civil air patrol is just as good a predictor for the police department for grow rooms. The only problem I have with the meters is that the power companies are really going to start screwing people more efficiently with more complicated demand pricing.


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## Sonny1027 (Mar 20, 2009)

Big John said:


> It's really disturbing to see how many of the Youtube commenters for that video seem to believe that.
> 
> It always makes me feel good when I realize these people vote in our elections.
> :hang:
> ...


Yes. I agree. I felt the same way after they elected the current POTUS.

:no:


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

How would they know if you are bootleging power? If it doesn't go through the meter?

Unless it picks up voltage drops on the line but no load through the meter,,,,,,,,


And with all the automated loads we have today, I am not so sure how they would interpret the information.


I wonder if they pick up waveforms and distortions. Think power factor. Leading and lagging current. It has it's own waveform. Does your sump pump have a different "fingerprint" than your pool filter?

Damn here come those little black helicopters again, time for me to put on my tin foil hat with the dragging jack chain ground.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I can't figure out why they need these smart meters anyway. After all, the gubbamint can just listen to us through our telephones, even when they're hung up... and everyone knows they can see us through our television sets.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

wildleg said:


> I guess if you have a grow room, the meters are going to get you. Clearly the information could be abused, but I don't think too many criminals are going to spend their time looking for people to steal from by analyzing their power usage patterns. However, I think that overall usage and the film footage from civil air patrol is just as good a predictor for the police department for grow rooms. The only problem I have with the meters is that the power companies are really going to start screwing people more efficiently with more complicated demand pricing.


Boy those Govt. officials sure do hate competitors in the illegal drug trade.
They went as far as to design smart meters to expose where the "cowboys" are located....... 

Actually those meters are not watching what you do, they were conceived to bring you digital input via the electronic lighting forced upon you by their "green" movement.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

And I thought this thread was going to be about those new fangled digital multimeters. F' ing things drive me nuts sometimes changing scales on me and being so sensitive they pick up capacitive coupling between conductors.










This is the pinnacle of meters as far as I am concerned


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## electricalwiz (Mar 12, 2011)

480sparky said:


> and everyone knows they can see us through our television sets.


 
you laugh at this, but Comcast right now has technology that does that very thing. Instead of it being in the TV it is Comcast receiver, they say the reason for this is the parental controls.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I can't figure out why they need these smart meters anyway. After all, the gubbamint can just listen to us through our telephones, even when they're hung up... and everyone knows they can see us through our television sets.


My guess other than big brother is profit x2. Customers can be harrased into using power at 3am in the morning rather than when awake. This takes power off of the grid during the day when its the most strained. No need to spend billions on rebuilding a dieing system. Profit boom number 2 comes from real time data, it can be manipulated ie, "our records say that you turned on a 13w CFL for 2minutes during the 2pm peak load, thatll be a $195 extra charge for atempting to take down the U.S. grid":laughing::laughing:.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

electricalwiz said:


> you laugh at this, but Comcast right now has technology that does that very thing. Instead of it being in the TV it is Comcast receiver, they say the reason for this is the parental controls.


HUH ? please elaborate

Okay, I found this link, but it says they were experimenting, , not that they have actively put this into practice ?

http://gigaom.com/video/comcast-cameras-to-start-watching-you/


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

wildleg said:


> HUH ? please elaborate


Comcast is watching...:detective::laughing:


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## Chris Kennedy (Nov 19, 2007)

That video is great. Someone needs to find out if thats true. 



joethemechanic said:


> F' ing things drive me nuts sometimes changing scales on me and being so sensitive they pick up capacitive coupling between conductors.


Good meters can filter crap like that out.


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## drsparky (Nov 13, 2008)

I have been putting tin foil in my hat since the smart meters came here.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

drsparky said:


> I have been putting tin foil in my hat since the smart meters came here.



Yeah, but if you don't have a grounding chain connected they can still read your thoughts


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If the government is wasting time watching what I'm doing, we've got real problems.


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## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

If these meters are so smart, why do they still send someone out to read my meter?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

How does he figure a smart meter could determine sexual activities or medical conditions?


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> How does he figure a smart meter could determine sexual activities or medical conditions?



If you are boinking an ugly chick, you turn off the lights for half an hour. DUH


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> How does he figure a smart meter could determine sexual activities or medical conditions?


I think hes being paranoid on that one, but hey what else is the government hiding from us?


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

The video is a real stretch of credibility. There is no current way for the meter to do more than report watts at a time of day but there are other technologies developing at the same time. More and more electronic devices are being built with Internet connectivity. refrigerators that can order milk or meat or what ever it is out of. Building controls, TV, stoves, and other home appliances that could in theory report your usage. Maybe it will someday be able to associate you power consumption with trips to the fridge or use of an appliance. I don't see wifi toasters coming but hey a perfect program for toasting a bagel?
Like you coffee exactly like Star bucks? maybe you can program your auto espresso machine to match their recipe?
Without a current sensor and wifi in every device in your home how would a meter associate a vibrator vs a tooth brush?
Now for finding diverted power that is now technology. You compare the line current with the reported energy usage. so you go to a pole top transformer and call up the meters from the 6 houses connected to that transformer 40 kw metered and 50 Kw output and you know that one of these houses is burning 10 kw ahead of the meter. a simple clamp meter on each house drop and very soon you know where the missing 10 kw is going. The house meter reports a 3 kw load and you clamp meter shows 13 on the service drop. Warrant applied for. 
The real danger of Smart meters is time of day usage rates and penalties. we might have to make dinner at 7 to avoid peak demand charges. Certainly could be good for deferring grid upgrades or planning better for meeting real demands.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Mshea said:


> The video is a real stretch of credibility. There is no current way for the meter to do more than report watts at a time of day


Again, he never actually said any different, he just implied it.


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## CDN EC (Jul 31, 2011)

Besides busting grow ops and increasing their bottom lines by saving on meter maids, I think the real scam is them raising rates while meals happen, etc. 

The kids eat at dinnertime. Thanksgiving happens during a certain weekend. We could do laundry on different days, but I have no doubts they'll raise the price of using your stove at the same time everyone else does.

Greed. That's all this is about.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

CDN mini-EC said:


> Besides busting grow ops and increasing their bottom lines by saving on meter maids, I think the real scam is them raising rates while meals happen, etc.
> 
> The kids eat at dinnertime. Thanksgiving happens during a certain weekend. We could do laundry on different days, but I have no doubts they'll raise the price of using your stove at the same time everyone else does.
> 
> Greed. That's all this is about.


I agree 100%. In fact, our local utility said as much when the public service commission had hearings regarding the approval for use of the smart meters (which some consumer groups tried to block)


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

CDN mini-EC said:


> Besides busting grow ops and increasing their bottom lines by saving on meter maids, I think the real scam is them raising rates while meals happen, etc.
> 
> The kids eat at dinnertime. Thanksgiving happens during a certain weekend. We could do laundry on different days, but I have no doubts they'll raise the price of using your stove at the same time everyone else does.
> 
> Greed. That's all this is about.



I agree 100%, somebody is getting filthy rich on this one.


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

wildleg said:


> .... The only problem I have with the meters is that the power companies are really going to start screwing people more efficiently with more complicated demand pricing.


It won't work that way. In fact, the opposite is true:

I have been on time-of-use pricing for over 12 years now. I am subject to 3 different rates: Off-peak, peak, and peak demand.

My rates during both off-peak and peak periods are less than what my neighbors all pay!

Peak demand does not occur daily, but only during times of high system usage, and only for a few hours at most. They send out a warning signal beforehand, letting me know that at the top of the next hour peak demand rates will begin. At that time, my generator kicks in, and I go off-grid for the entire peak demand period! That way, I have -0- kWh during peak demand periods on my bill.

However, before I hooked up my generator system, I simply shut down most of my loads automatically during those peak demand periods. I have installed power relays that are connected to the POCO signalling device that does this automatically, even if I am not home. I averaged 4 peak demand kWh _per month_ during that time, before my backup system was installed.

The bottom line?

I have saved several thousand dollars on my electric bills over the past 12 years compared with what my neighbors pay. We get the same electricity, over the same wires, but my costs are lower, simply because I choose to not buy any power during those peak demand periods.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> It won't work that way. In fact, the opposite is true:
> 
> I have been on time-of-use pricing for over 12 years now. I am subject to 3 different rates: Off-peak, peak, and peak demand.
> 
> ...


Isn't that generator power a little pricey? I never could generate power for anywhere as cheap as I buy it off the PoCo


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Not at $1.91 per kWh. Peak demand kWh are pricey.

But, the trade-off is I don't have to "exercise" my generator at all! That is usually wasted fuel, but not in my case. I use it to offset the high dollar rates!


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

This entire video is bunk. Here's what it REALLY is. 

Most power companies are going to a "digital reader". Meaning, all the meter reader has to do in some places in walk by your meter, and it transmits the code for your house and power useage to a handheld device. It is then uploaded to a computer, which interprits the data, and bills accordingly. Much easier than having a guy physically read each meter on his route. Plus, it cuts down on the amount of time a meter reader spends doing his route, which translates to a savings for the POCO. 

1 watt wouldn't transmit more than about 1/2 to a mile at best. And that is line of sight too. Hell, most low-power AM stations have a minimum of 250 watts. 

Not to mention, the fact that it is not a transceiver (meaning it sends and receives signals) means it can only transmit information, not receive it or re-broadcast any other signals. 

It's debunked.

ETA: You can read about it here. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_meter_reading

and here

http://urgentcomm.com/mobile_data/mag/radio_wireless_meter_reading/

Plus dozens more.


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

This guy is nuts. Don't grow pot and don't operate an illegal commercial server and this video is pointless. The poco records your electrical usage so that they can better serve you by knowing in kilowatt hours the demand in which they serve. So what would you choose, metering, or blackouts?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> This entire video is bunk. Here's what it REALLY is.
> 
> Most power companies are going to a "digital reader". Meaning, all the meter reader has to do in some places in walk by your meter, and it transmits the code for your house and power useage to a handheld device. It is then uploaded to a computer, which interprits the data, and bills accordingly. Much easier than having a guy physically read each meter on his route. Plus, it cuts down on the amount of time a meter reader spends doing his route, which translates to a savings for the POCO.
> 
> ...


 

There's more to it than that, and the reason I KNOW this for a FACT, is I've pulled a smart meter before, and within 15 minutes the power company showed up and asked what I was doing, including my license to do so. They made all kind of silly threats. A meter that only does what you say, would not have told them i had pulled it.


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## joethemechanic (Sep 21, 2011)

kbsparky said:


> Not at $1.91 per kWh. Peak demand kWh are pricey.
> 
> But, the trade-off is I don't have to "exercise" my generator at all! That is usually wasted fuel, but not in my case. I use it to offset the high dollar rates!



I think I could generate power for $1.91 @ kwh. lol so really you have a peak shaving operation at your house.

In the early 90's Temple University installed a peak shaving station at I think 10th & Ciecil B More. It was all Cat 3500 series engines on city gas. I can't remember who made the generator ends.

At the time it was "The Largest Reciprocating Engine (piston engine) Powered Generation installation in North America".

Back when they built it it had little if any wast heat recovery systems. I'll bet by now they have added some. BTUs are expensive


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There's more to it than that, and the reason I KNOW this for a FACT, is I've pulled a smart meter before, and within 15 minutes the power company showed up and asked what I was doing, including my license to do so. They made all kind of silly threats. A meter that only does what you say, would not have told them i had pulled it.


Nothing personal, but I am very skeptical. 

1 Watt transmission power is about what high end wireless routers have. 

(Mine has .5 watts) It only reaches the two neighbors' houses, and nothing beyond that.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

My ham radio callsign is VA3CSG and I've transmitted around the world on 3 watts. Look into zigbee. It takes virtually no power for the POCO to take real time readings in a mesh network.


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## amptech (Sep 21, 2007)

The smart meters around here transmit over the grid. So do the DRU switches they install on water heaters and A/C units.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Smart meters. Okey dokey...http://www.subversiveelement.com/MK_Psychotronic_weapons.html


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Here is what Delmarva Power is using throughout Delaware to read their meters:


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## Archania (Mar 16, 2009)

I lucked out not getting a Smart Meter in San Jose, ca. The previous owner made a cabinet for the panel/meter with only a hole for the meter to show through. The 3 morons that came out to replace it didn't want to deal with the 13 screws holding the plate on over the meter. They only messed with a couple screws (since I saw the paint was flaked off of them). I'm just waiting to charge me a "meter reading fee" since they still have to come out and look at it. Just watch though, it will be another way for them to regulate your usage if they think you are using too much at a certain time. But the businesses and big buildings that leave lights and who knows what on 24/7 is OK...


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## kbsparky (Sep 20, 2007)

For that, they will install a "demand" meter, and you can use as much as you want at any given time. Of course, you'll pay dearly for the privilege... :blink:


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

I had that for a while. My old local poco hadn't rolled out smart meters yet but introduced demand pricing. 80% of consumption was billed at peak and 20% was at off peak rates. Of course, since the ratio was fixed they could have just kept a fixed rate. Turns out the new new fixed rate was about 40% higher than the old one. Response was so rapid and vicious that they actually apologised and went back to the old rate. (I like it when that happens)


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

TooFarFromFenway said:


> Nothing personal, but I am very skeptical.
> 
> 1 Watt transmission power is about what high end wireless routers have.
> 
> (Mine has .5 watts) It only reaches the two neighbors' houses, and nothing beyond that.


Eber heard of a repeater? They also do cellular too...


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

Sonny1027 said:


> We know where you are and what you are doing!
> 
> http://goldsilver.com/video/smart-meters/


well, the meter on the back of my house is a two way device.
there is a simple test. don't pay the bill, and nobody comes
out to boot it, it is automatically shut off.

it shows a few things to the poco in real time.
actual voltage present at the meter, on both legs.
actual wattage (true power) consumed at the present moment.
total power passed by the meter.
this information is continuously updated to the poco.

it is also encrypted, to prevent theft, and unauthorized
interruption or reinstatement of power.

growing loco weed? they can look at your power consumption
and figure that out from a dumb meter. get over it.

have a power outage? they know exactly where and when.
stealing power for your grow room?
that's almost as dumb as trying to rob a gun store.

theft of electricity around here is a felony.
probably with worse penalties than growing loco weed.


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

FulThrotl said:


> well, the meter on the back of my house is a two way device.
> there is a simple test. don't pay the bill, and nobody comes
> out to boot it, it is automatically shut off.
> 
> ...


If they'd just legalise it, dealers and grow ops and power theft would disappear almost immediately. Everyone who wanted to smoke would just grow it in their back yard with sunlight.


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## hub (Jun 11, 2008)

*smart meterw*



HARRY304E said:


>


 where did this clown appear... he does not have a clue about smart meters.


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## TooFarFromFenway (Jul 15, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Eber heard of a repeater? They also do cellular too...


You do realize that these "repeaters" would need to be on almost every corner, right?


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## cguillas (Jun 25, 2009)

Or almost every... house?


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

Besides the conspiracy aspects, there is another group of individuals and organizations out there that are protesting smart meters because of the (supposed) danger of the RF signal being sent from the meter. I emailed the founder of one of these sites, stating that they had better get rid of their cell phone, and home wi-fi network, and cordless phones, and so on, if they are really concerned about this, but they simply replied back with a list of dozens of web links which all show how dangerous these meters are.

Here's a few of them:

http://stopsmartmeters.org/
http://sagereports.com/smart-meter-rf/
http://www.electricalpollution.com/smartmeters.html
http://www.smartmeterdangers.com/

You can google this topic and find dozens more. I can't even believe how many of these sites that there are.

[Personally, I think that holding a cell phone right up to your head for several hours per month is probably more of an issue than any of the other RF signals that we are exposed to including those from smart meters - you have the phone antenna literally an inch or two away from your brain and that close proximity is the problem. Using any type of wired or wireless headset solves this issue.]


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> How would they know if you are bootleging power? If it doesn't go through the meter?
> 
> Unless it picks up voltage drops on the line but no load through the meter,,,,,,,,
> 
> ...


There are so many science fiction writers capitalizing on the SmartMeter program, it's gone crazy.
There are many reasons to refuse a SmartMeter like I have, but these science fiction people are shooting themselves in the foot and discrediting the movement against the meters.
If anyone reads Electrical Contractor magazine, there is a great article in the industry watch section that describes the prime motive for the radio transmitting E1 electrical meters in the country.
The main concern is increasing profits by eliminating meter readers.
The meter reading department has always been funded by the ratepayers, and built into our rates.
In northern California, PG&E is the main utility provider. PG&E employed around 860 meter readers to read 10.1 million electric and gas meters.
These meter readers are in the IBEW union, albeit a weak arm of it.
They are not electricians at all, but more like clerical workers in the revenue assurance department.
There are two types of workers, the permanent (now called regular) readers earn $29.00 per hour plus full benefits, and the hiring hall workers earn $35.00 per hour with no benefits. I guess that PG&E figures that benefits cost $6.00 per hour. So, a meter reader costs the ratepayers about $70,000 per year.
In the article I saw in EC magazine, a utility with 10 million customers can profit $80 million per year for 10 years that equals $800 million by eliminating the meter reading department employees including trucks and fuel.
PG&E paid the CPUC to charge the ratepayers $2.2 billion to implement the radio meter program. None of that investment to increase profits came from the investor/owners of PG&E. It has to be the perfect marketing scam, the best in the world. In any other regular business, there is an investment required for a whopping return, but in the case of the meters, there is no investment at all by the owners. Sweet deal !
The CPUC claims that the meters are required, but that is false. There is a federal mandate that states that by 2014, the utilities must make available electric meters that are capable of time differentiated pricing schemes to those who request it.
Personally, I have a solar system, so the new SmartMeters will not work for people who want to back feed power to the grid, the new meters do not register current flowing in reverse for credit, so PG&E is forbidden to install a new SmartMeter on people who generate power themselves and feed the excess back to the power grid. We must use the existing analog meters or an E6 time of use meter, both are not SmartMeters and must be read manually once a month.
Also, there are the new E9 electric meters for residential level 2 vehicle chargers. those meters need a constant high speed broadband connection to be interactive with the utility, the E1 SmartMeters are useless for electric vehicle incentive programs.
Even if I did not have solar, I would never volunteer for any time differentiated pricing plans. Those voluntary plans are to sucker the ratepayers into paying up to one dollar per kilowatt hour during the hours of 2:00 pm to 7:00 pm. I am not going to change my life and quit working and living between 2:00 pm and 7:00 pm, and the utility corporations know this, so they are going to capitalize on this and further gouge the ratepayers.
I have no use for a SmartMeter, and will have nothing at all to do with the program. The bunk about the meters being surveillance devices is something that I will get into in another post, the HAN systems are entirely purchased by the customer and are not interactive with the utility in any way, except for the smart thermostats that are planned for the future and are voluntary, not mandatory.


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## sparky.jp (May 1, 2009)

I'll post an update on this since I have found out a bit more. I for certain do now have a smart meter on my house, and it is CONSTANTLY broadcasting 24/7/365 (which is not what they claim happens). How do I know this? Well, at night when I want to listen to talk radio on AM, some stations are almost wiped out by this 50% duty cycle, 5_-cycle (approximate), RF signals (so about every second, there is a 1/2-second pulse of RF which wipes out radio reception). I have lived with this for the past year or so, and finally mentally connected the dots so I performed an experiment to confirm my hunch.

I took a battery-powered AM radio outside and held it near the meter, and confirmed that the meter is definitely the source of the interference. It is most prevalent between 750-900 kHz. I can even pick it up on the car radio when the car is in the driveway.

The powers-that-be ( :no: oh, that hurts) have told us that these meters only broadcast once per day, for a short period. If that is true, why is my meter constantly broadcasting an RF signal? A signal that is radiating from the electrical power system in my house (as opposed to just being conducted down the wires) and being picked up by numerous battery-operated radios.

Well, for one thing, the meter needs to be in somewhat constant communication with any 'smart' devices in the house, so it can pass along signals to them. Example: 'Electric Water Heater - Turn off for the next 15 minutes', or possibly, 'Turn ON for the next 15 minutes' (in the case that the utility needs to consume excess supply from wind turbines that the FERC has recently mandated that the grid operators must accept even if they don't need the energy at that moment, stupid stupid stupid, it's hard enough to keep the electrical grid balanced with only variations in demand and now we're adding additional and uncontrollable variations on the supply side as well).

Also, somebody mentioned the need above for neighborhood repeaters - well guess what? Each meter IS a repeater - this system is designed such that each meter acts as part of a daisy-chain and can pass along (or pass through) information from your neighbor's house, and from the next house, and so on. This drastically reduces the amount of new equipment (other than the meters themselves) which need to be installed on the utility side. This works well in urban areas where houses are close to each other, but out in the sticks? Probably not so well. But that's not my problem.

I fully expect smart meters to be in widespread use within the next 5-7 years. The next step is for the EPA, under the guise of energy efficiency requirements, to mandate that all new houses, and all existing houses when they change hands, to have the latest "energy star" (ie smart-meter-compliant) appliances installed. It will provide countless additional profits for the appliance manufacturers, much like the mandate to obsolete analog TV broadcasts did for the TV manufacturers. But of course we will be "saving the planet" as we throw away millions of perfectly-working appliances.

Just wait for the phone calls from your local utility: "Hello, Mr. Smith? Our system is reporting that your hot water heater needs repair as it is has been using 30% more electricity than normal. Oh, what's that? You say that you have out-of-town relatives staying for the week? Well never mind then, and have a nice day!" :laughing:


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## azgard (Nov 25, 2011)

joethemechanic said:


> I think I could generate power for $1.91 @ kwh. lol so really you have a peak shaving operation at your house.
> 
> In the early 90's Temple University installed a peak shaving station at I think 10th & Ciecil B More. It was all Cat 3500 series engines on city gas. I can't remember who made the generator ends.
> 
> ...


Apparently running a Generator isn't that expensive if you got the money to lay down.

Link A

Link B

That's the school I used to go to, get's its power from Niagara Mohawk so in general cheaper power then a lot of people get. Think the bond is payed off already too.


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## Pompadour (Mar 19, 2011)

i had the power company install a smart meter after the d-bag meter reader left my gate open (my dogs got out while my wife was VERY pregnant and she was freaking out).

it is worth it not to have people opening and closing my gate.


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

sparky.jp said:


> I'll post an update on this since I have found out a bit more. I for certain do now have a smart meter on my house, and it is CONSTANTLY broadcasting 24/7/365 (which is not what they claim happens). How do I know this? Well, at night when I want to listen to talk radio on AM, some stations are almost wiped out by this 50% duty cycle, 5_-cycle (approximate), RF signals (so about every second, there is a 1/2-second pulse of RF which wipes out radio reception). I have lived with this for the past year or so, and finally mentally connected the dots so I performed an experiment to confirm my hunch.
> 
> I took a battery-powered AM radio outside and held it near the meter, and confirmed that the meter is definitely the source of the interference. It is most prevalent between 750-900 kHz. I can even pick it up on the car radio when the car is in the driveway.
> 
> ...


The new meters being installed here are Landis+Gyr and GE.
At a public meeting in S.F. with executives from PG&E and Silver Springs networks, they explained that the meters used by PG&E do transmit RF 24/7, but only transmit total electricity used in data packets once every 4 hours over the utilities 900 MHz radio networks. The rest of the time, the meters are only transmitting to keep in sync with each other to maintain the mesh network.
There is also a transmitter inside the new smart meters that is a ZigBee 2415 MHz transmitter that is not being used now (but they didn't say it was not on).
In the future, PG&E is going to offer a voluntary smart thermostat program. The smart thermostat will take commands sent out by the utility, repeat them through the meter to cycle the air compressor relay on residential air conditioning units. That is not interactive, the utility does not monitor the temperature, the utility sends only one way commands to cycle the motor. It does not control fans or heating of the HVAC system.
Those new "chipped" appliances have a ZigBee transmitter that monitors consumption of each chipped appliance and transmits that info to the customer purchased Home Area Network receiver, it does not transmit data to the utility meter. The SmartMeter's only function is to transmit total electrical usage of the meter to the utility over a radio network.
I have carefully read the sales brochures put out by PG&E sent with their letter of intent to install a smart meter on my property. I called the number on the brochure for info on the SmartMeters. I spoke with a rep for about half an hour, addressing each line and found out that a whole lot of that marketing brochure was totally inaccurate or at best, extremely misleading about all the programs that are planned to be marketed. When I have more time, I will post the results from my inquisition to PG&E, it will surprise most people.


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## Mshea (Jan 17, 2011)

We have a cellular network and our meters broadcast less tha 1 minute per day total. I think they report 4 times an hour but I am sure it isn't the entire network every 15 minutes but each meter every 15 minutes. So a daily total makes 100 reports for a total time of 60 seconds. Power is in the 1/4 watt range for the celular modem. My meter is about 5 feet from my favourite chair and if my radio theory is still any value that is about 1/8 the power for every foot further away or microwatts. Heck I fugure if I go to the center of a National park as far from any radio source including the park rangers i am still getting as much radio energy from the universe and let me see you opt out of that one. Most of the fear seems to be related to microwave, WiFi and cellular frequencies which all have different characteristics with regard to biological exposure. I have yet to read a peer reviewed paper that unequivocally associates radio frequencies to health issues despite the hundreds of claims that it does. Mostly the anti smart meter group is also anti science since they seem incapeable of believing anything that disagrees with their paradim.
I did read a detailed study of the ability to tell what TV program you are watching but the Smart meter has to be really smart and provide Occiliscope like meter detail.
IE if the meter was to broadcast continuous millisecond time readings it is possible to take that data and compare a reading to a reading of the dark and light scenes of a TV show. No one mentions that the resolution of the meter Has to be better than the components in the meter are likely to resolve and a huge data base to compare the micro variations of the power profile to tell anything as invasive as what show people are watching. In fact if someone really wants to know what you are up to a wifi modem, a cell scanner and a dark colored van outside your house would be more productive than listening to the output of your meter.


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

Mshea said:


> We have a cellular network and our meters broadcast less tha 1 minute per day total. I think they report 4 times an hour but I am sure it isn't the entire network every 15 minutes but each meter every 15 minutes. So a daily total makes 100 reports for a total time of 60 seconds. Power is in the 1/4 watt range for the celular modem. My meter is about 5 feet from my favourite chair and if my radio theory is still any value that is about 1/8 the power for every foot further away or microwatts. Heck I fugure if I go to the center of a National park as far from any radio source including the park rangers i am still getting as much radio energy from the universe and let me see you opt out of that one. Most of the fear seems to be related to microwave, WiFi and cellular frequencies which all have different characteristics with regard to biological exposure. I have yet to read a peer reviewed paper that unequivocally associates radio frequencies to health issues despite the hundreds of claims that it does. Mostly the anti smart meter group is also anti science since they seem incapeable of believing anything that disagrees with their paradim.
> I did read a detailed study of the ability to tell what TV program you are watching but the Smart meter has to be really smart and provide Occiliscope like meter detail.
> IE if the meter was to broadcast continuous millisecond time readings it is possible to take that data and compare a reading to a reading of the dark and light scenes of a TV show. No one mentions that the resolution of the meter Has to be better than the components in the meter are likely to resolve and a huge data base to compare the micro variations of the power profile to tell anything as invasive as what show people are watching. In fact if someone really wants to know what you are up to a wifi modem, a cell scanner and a dark colored van outside your house would be more productive than listening to the output of your meter.


The SmartMeters are different in Canada, and other parts of the world also.
The new AMI meters here in California are not capable of anything except transmitting total electrical use of each meter. The E1 electrical meters are not sophisticated devices at all. There is no possible way at all that they can:
determine what this total electricity is being used for, only the total, reported in data packets 6 times per 24 hours. The meters here also use existing mobile phone networks, 900 MHz UHF, not microwave. The ZigBee transmitters for the thermostat program are not being used, and ZigBee is a different communications platform than wi-fi, not compatible at all. The ZigBee transmitters are very low powered, about 0.30 watt, and the meter transmitters have not been officially certified about output power in RF. There are stories that vary from one watt to 2.5 watts, depending on if the meter is a collector meter or not.
I agree, RF is everywhere in the world, no escape anywhere.
The opponents of the program have different reasons for the opposition. Some of the opponents focus on science fiction, but that hurts the movement. Some say that it is actually astroturfers from the utility that are making all this whacked out science fiction stuff up.
I am opposed to the new AMI meters because they do not support renewable energy generation done by individuals, and because they do not support electric vehicle incentives. But the main reason that I oppose the project is that the program is a total rip off to the consumer, and the prime concern is eliminating decent paying union jobs here in the U.S.,replacing the workers with cheaply made devices manufactured in foreign countries to automate meter reading and eliminate good jobs. That seems to be the trend, eliminate jobs and maximize profits. Anything and everything for the collective corporate good . World Wide Corporate Welfare Program.


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## raker.robert (Jun 25, 2010)

I work with these Meters everyday and they truely do make the grid smarter. Our particular system uses PLC(power line carrier). That took me a while to get used to I always thought of PLC meaning Programmable Logic Controller. There is a signal (bit) injected at the zero crossing point of the signwave it is sent over the existing power lines. Not all meters us RF but all cell phones do.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

Well if the smart meters are supposed to report an outage (or assist in locating an outage by being offline) I can say that, at least here in SCE territory, they failed a test today. 

A metallic balloon got into the lines a block from my palatial estate and burned a jumper to a lateral feeding several houses and apartments. I called the outage in, as did several residents, and we were all told that the "system" said we had power. :no:

A bit of persuading the dispatcher and I got a crew out there within a half hour, they repaired the jumper and everyone was back on within an hour. 

I don't sweat the RF these meters put out, but I do have two issues with them:

1: Voltage drop. Either it's a coincidence or not, but since the smart meter was installed here my line voltage has dropped from it's normal 120-124v to 114-118v. This drop is consistent throughout the day. 

2: Risk (however slight) of fire. The electronics in these meters have, on a few occasions, failed and burned up. Sometimes no more than blackening the inside of the meter but on more than a few times setting a fire or causing a total meltdown. And the "A" base adapters the POCO installed here are plastic too.

Even despite the risk of fire, those meters definitely cannot withstand surges or overvoltages like the old mechanical meters can.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mxslick said:


> 1: Voltage drop. Either it's a coincidence or not, but since the smart meter was installed here my line voltage has dropped from it's normal 120-124v to 114-118v. This drop is consistent throughout the day.



I am no wiz at this sort of thing but it seems if you were dropping six volts in this meter 24/7 that it would have melted off the wall by now, not to mention the lost revenue assuming your electrcal bill has not increased.


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

mxslick said:


> Well if the smart meters are supposed to report an outage (or assist in locating an outage by being offline) I can say that, at least here in SCE territory, they failed a test today. or overvoltages like the old mechanical meters can.


The outage detection feature is a joke.
Out here, our utility (PG&E) is planning on starting a $300 million project to upgrade our old power grid. It is set to start in a year or two. One of the main things that PG&E is going to do is install sensors on the step down transformers to detect power outages, what the wireless smart meters and their wireless smart grid do is of no help at all. It is much more reliable to phone in an outage as soon as possible. Here, it is first in first out. If there is a big storm, the people that phone in first are put on top of the list.
Even when two years down the road PG&E starts to install their sensors along the circuits coming out of substations, all that is deduced is where the power is and where it is not.
In a storm, the line crews go to where the fault is and work their way to the end of the circuit. This sometimes takes several days. My lineman told me that they have to do a thorough inspection of the entire line to the end before they close the circuit, otherwise all their work would be wasted if there was more than one tree branch that knocked down a line.


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## guest (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> I am no wiz at this sort of thing but it seems if you were dropping six volts in this meter 24/7 that it would have melted off the wall by now, not to mention the lost revenue assuming your electrcal bill has not increased.


I agree and one of the first things I did was check to see if the meter was hot or smelled like burning electronics. No dice. 

My bill has gone up however....by what percentage I haven't looked into though. 

It is possible that it is coincidence...I do know that our primary had a step regulator that would "freak out" at the same time every evening, the voltage would hunt up and down in a somewhat regular pattern for a few minutes at a time. That stopped happening before the smart meter went in, so maybe the POCO either bypassed that regulator altogether or replaced it.


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## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

Our local PUD has begun installing smart meters around town. They started working on a manufactured home retirement park; almost all the services are supplied with cheap RV pedestal type meter mains. Just about every one they open up has corroded/burned up meter jaws and they're having to replace a bunch of service equipment for people :laughing: I've replaced a couple up there already.


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

raker.robert said:


> I work with these Meters everyday and they truely do make the grid smarter. Our particular system uses PLC(power line carrier). That took me a while to get used to I always thought of PLC meaning Programmable Logic Controller. There is a signal (bit) injected at the zero crossing point of the signwave it is sent over the existing power lines. Not all meters us RF but all cell phones do.


I did read that is one region of I think was in Kentucky, they are using meters that transmit billing data on a PLC. The meters still perform the same as the ones used out here that transmit on a radio "smart grid". The meters transmit a compressed data package in bursts once every 4 hours. Then if a customer has a high speed broadband connection and a computer, they can set up an account with the utility using their existing account number and phone number and given a password so they can log in to the utility revenue assurance servers and view their previous days usage, hour by hour if requested. This viewing can only be for up to the previous 24 hour period, it is not real time data.
Personally, I don't see what the point is of viewing yesterdays usage online. The electricity has already been used, so who cares ?
And this is total usage of the meter only, there is no way that the utility can determine what you used the electricity for, only when you used it on the previous day. I know many people that object to that feature and say it is an invasion of privacy.
It's bad enough that the utility knows at what hours you are using your electricity, but if people are worried about privacy, they should never set up an online account to have their name, address, account number, phone number and hours of electrical use broadcast on the internet and stored on their home computer. We all know that computers can be compromised and hacked.
Out here in California, we won our battle against the wireless smart meters and the wireless smart grid. We now have a choice to not be forced to opt into the program.
There are many people here that have renewable energy generation systems like hydro, solar and wind. The smart grid is not capable of registering or recording electricity being back fed to the power grid, so we still have our analog meters or digital E6/E7 TOU meters that need to be read by a meter reader.
But the CPUC cooked up a sweet deal for PG&E, even though we don't have smart meters, we still have to pay a one time fee of $75 and a monthly fee of $10 to keep our existing meters. PG&E says that this to "socialize" the costs for them to send their own crews out to remove the smart meters that are unwanted, unneeded and were never ordered in the first place, it was a forced sale. Also, with so many people requesting removal of the smart meters, that will create holes in the smart grid radio network, because the meters are also repeaters. PG&E will have to install more data collectors/repeaters on the power poles to bridge the gap in the smart grid.


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## crosport (Apr 4, 2010)

Smart meters are only the beginning of a many step process.In the near future all appliances and media items in your house will have identifier chips inside which will communicate to the meter.The supply authourity will know what movies you watch and what appliances you own and use.All that info will be sold to marketers.That's a fact.Just like California wanting it mandatory to have G.P.S. in every vehicle so you are charged per every mile you travel not to mention monitoring and ticketing your speed infractions.If you think it won't happen think again.Guaranteed!


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## Aldo Moretti (Aug 29, 2011)

crosport said:


> Smart meters are only the beginning of a many step process.In the near future all appliances and media items in your house will have identifier chips inside which will communicate to the meter.The supply authourity will know what movies you watch and what appliances you own and use.All that info will be sold to marketers.That's a fact.Just like California wanting it mandatory to have G.P.S. in every vehicle so you are charged per every mile you travel not to mention monitoring and ticketing your speed infractions.If you think it won't happen think again.Guaranteed!


Nope, only certain large appliances will be sold with monitoring chips, and these chips will never transmit to any utility electric meter. The chips transmit to a customer purchased home area monitoring display, are for customers private use only on the as marketed "consumer smart grid". This has confused many people including yourself. The consumer smart grid is not connected to the utility meters radio smart grid, and both of these systems should not be confused with the electrical power grid. 
That is all marketing hype to trick consumers into buying their useless monitoring systems under the guise of somehow saving energy, when all they have to do is read the rating plates on all appliances to see how much current the appliance draws. It's a sham.


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