# bare earth wire in outlet box?



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

John_europe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is probably going to be the stupidest question ever asked in this forum, but since I can't find the answer anywhere on the net I'm asking it here:
> 
> ...


Even though it is called an Equipment Grounding Conductor it is actually an Equipment Bonding Conductor and can be bare or insulated in this case, it is a low impedance path to the source for clearing faults, it is safe and required.

Even with this being your own home are you permitting your work and having it inspected?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

It is legal but you do need to be careful when installing a device. You need to take care as to not short the wire to the devices-- a common beginners mistake. I have seen some older nm cable that had an insulated ground but there is no reason for it.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Fibes said:


> Even though it is called an Equipment Grounding Conductor it is actually an Equipment Bonding Conductor.


The 2011 NEC has done away with the term equipment grounding conductor and has used the term equipment bonding jumper (EBJ)


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

John_europe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is probably going to be the stupidest question ever asked in this forum, but since I can't find the answer anywhere on the net I'm asking it here:
> 
> ...



I think you mean insulated, not isolated!

In Canada, residential wiring has a bare ground. 

I believe it is that way in most of the U.S. too!


----------



## Fibes (Feb 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2011 NEC has done away with the term equipment grounding conductor and has used the term equipment bonding jumper (EBJ)


Yes, but from what I hear your state will not be under the 2011 for quite a while. 

EBJ should have always been the term.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

oldtimer said:


> I think you mean insulated, not isolated!
> 
> In Canada, residential wiring has a bare ground.
> 
> I believe it is that way in most of the U.S. too!


Actually you generally only see bare equipment grounds in nm cable however, in conduit it is usually insulated.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

Fibes said:


> Yes, but from what I hear your state will not be under the 2011 for quite a while.
> 
> EBJ should have always been the term.


Every time I ask they say a different day. Last I heard was maybe the first of the year but we certainly can start using the term.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> Actually you generally only see bare equipment grounds in nm cable however, in conduit it is usually insulated.


 You are correct, but most residential wiring is done with NM.

Even B X has a bare ground, unless spec'd with an insulated ground, for specific electronic equipment.


----------



## John_europe (Aug 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I have seen some older nm cable that had an insulated ground but there is no reason for it.


You've got to be kidding! No earth leakage breaker circuits, so currents will have to run up to 15-50amps before tripping the breaker, hundreds of pages (NEC) to avoid the most extreme situations in which accidents could happen, and this gap is wide open 

@Fibes, I'm not doing any work on those outlets, just opened one to see whether I could see my wall is insulated.

@oldtimer, you're right, I meant insulated, not isolated. Not a native speaker, and on my high school we were only taught "kitchen-English", not technical English... sorry!


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

John_europe said:


> You've got to be kidding! No earth leakage breaker circuits, so currents will have to run up to 15-50amps before tripping the breaker, hundreds of pages (NEC) to avoid the most extreme situations in which accidents could happen, and this gap is wide open
> 
> @Fibes, I'm not doing any work on those outlets, just opened one to see whether I could see my wall is insulated.


John I don't understand your concern. We are talking equipment ground not neutral or grounded conductor. What difference does it make if there is insulation on the wire. You strip it to connect it to your boxes and equipment if they are metallic so what is your concern.

We do have GFCI but they are on special circuits not everywhere. Again a bare ground is no different than an insulated one.


----------



## oldtimer (Jun 10, 2010)

John_europe said:


> You've got to be kidding! No earth leakage breaker circuits, so currents will have to run up to 15-50amps before tripping the breaker, hundreds of pages (NEC) to avoid the most extreme situations in which accidents could happen, and this gap is wide open
> 
> @Fibes, I'm not doing any work on those outlets, just opened one to see whether I could see my wall is insulated.



How did you manage to see if your wall is insulated?

Did you remove the outlet box? 

Under normal circumstances, outside walls of a residence are always insulated.

I am not trying to be facetious! That is the way it is done.

Inside walls are sometimes insulated for sound.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> The 2011 NEC has done away with the term equipment grounding conductor and has used the term equipment bonding jumper (EBJ)


 The term Equipment Grounding Conductor has not been replaced in the 2011 code. It is still used extensively through out the code.


----------



## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

I know in the UK, in what we call twin and earth, you guys call it Romex. But the bare ground that is in the Romex has to be sleeved with green/yellow sleeving to show it's the ground and to insulate from the other conductors. Is this what you are getting at John?


----------



## jhall.sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

John_europe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is probably going to be the stupidest question ever asked in this forum, but since I can't find the answer anywhere on the net I'm asking it here:
> 
> ...




And planes crash ........should we stop all flight all together? 


Safety is a big concern but nitpicking it to death is absurd. ARE YOU AN E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C-I-A-N ?


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The term Equipment Grounding Conductor has not been replaced in the 2011 code. It is still used extensively through out the code.


You are correct -- I thought they did away with the term. I must have that confused with something else.

Edit to add
I think there was a move to do away with it but they decided not to. Maybe I am just totally out of it but I have this vague recollection about it.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

jhall.sparky said:


> Safety is a big concern but nitpicking it to death is absurd. ARE YOU AN E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C-I-A-N ?



He is a UK electrician.


----------



## John_europe (Aug 17, 2011)

Dennis Alwon said:


> John I don't understand your concern. We are talking equipment ground not neutral or grounded conductor. What difference does it make if there is insulation on the wire. You strip it to connect it to your boxes and equipment if they are metallic so what is your concern.



My concern is this: some non-electrician father is going to paint his house or wants to isolate his wall or just wants to drill a hole in the wall and be sure not to hit an AC-wire, and opens up his outlet box. 

Not sure whether it is legal here, in Europe you can open up anything after the meter, but I'm sure it happens millions of times in the US (300 million inhabitants, 1 out of 300 being a DIY seems conservative).

After done his job (or nothing), he just props in (is this English) all the wires in the outlet box ("a known beginners error"). Now three things can happen, in order of most happy impact:
1) bare earth stays away from anything hot; nothing happens
2) bare earth wire hits something hot; daddy notes that his breaker is tripping and hopefully will check wether the 20A spark did not cause a fire, and then daddy will fix the problem by bending (the wire that is, not the rules)
3) bare earth gets very close to hot connection, but not close enough to cause a short circuit. Daddy switches breaker on, all works fine again.

Now it gets interesting, because a "time-bomb" is in place, and it is just a matter of time before short circuit will happen. It can be because of pest (just found ants in an electrical box outside my house), increasing humidity, some mechanical setting within the wires, box, or wall, it can be anything.

Again the breaker will be tripped, but again, 20amps is more than enough to start a fire. Most of the cases nothing will happen, 1 out of .... there will.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, I am very enthusiastic on the great US, and I love your country. Just looking at your NEC from an outsiders perspective...

When the earth wire would not be bare, it would not matter whether it would touch a hot connection, because it would be insulated. 

I'm not talking theory here, this is causing (fire-related) deaths which IMHO could be easily prevented...


----------



## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

Now, anyone with half a brain won't switch a circuit on without connecting the conductors to a socket (receptacle) or switch. I am not a fan of the bare copper earth (ground) but that is how it is done here. Now Dennis has stated your an electrician in the UK, but your profile says Europe, so you should know some electrical standards around Europe are not as keen as here in the States.


----------



## John_europe (Aug 17, 2011)

You're right Sparky, I was looking at the yellow/green sleeve as we use in the UK, or the prohibition of bare earth in a lot of countries on the continent.

Thanks all for your input, another day that I've learned!


----------



## raider1 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> You are correct -- I thought they did away with the term. I must have that confused with something else.
> 
> Edit to add
> I think there was a move to do away with it but they decided not to. Maybe I am just totally out of it but I have this vague recollection about it.


I believe that your confusion is coming from the change of the term equipment bonding jumper to supply side bonding jumper for bonding jumpers on the line side of an electrical service or line side of the secondary overcurrent protective device for a separately derived system. (250.102)

Chris


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

John_europe said:


> My concern is this: some non-electrician father is going to paint his house or wants to isolate his wall or just wants to drill a hole in the wall and be sure not to hit an AC-wire, and opens up his outlet box.
> 
> Not sure whether it is legal here, in Europe you can open up anything after the meter, but I'm sure it happens millions of times in the US (300 million inhabitants, 1 out of 300 being a DIY seems conservative).
> 
> ...


 

No questions are stupid John, (except mine).


I think this is a matter of what you're used to seeing all your life.

A bare ground is by no-means a time bomb, not even close. Even with RCD's I don't see an issue when it's done with good workmanship.

Welcome aboard friend:thumbsup:


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Dennis Alwon said:


> ...Edit to add
> I think there was a move to do away with it but they decided not to. Maybe I am just totally out of it but I have this vague recollection about it.


 I submitted a few hundred proposals for the 2005 cycle to get rid of EGC and replace it with EBC.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I submitted a few hundred proposals for the 2005 cycle to get rid of EGC and replace it with EBC.


Okay, that makes sense. I knew there was talk of it and I am not sure why I thought it happened. Chris may be right about my confusion but I still recollect it as the EGC not bonding jumper, etc.


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> I submitted a few hundred proposals for the 2005 cycle to get rid of EGC and replace it with EBC.



Please excuse me but what is an EBC?


----------



## randas (Dec 14, 2008)

John_europe said:


> My concern is this: some non-electrician father is going to paint his house or wants to isolate his wall or just wants to drill a hole in the wall and be sure not to hit an AC-wire, and opens up his outlet box.
> 
> Not sure whether it is legal here, in Europe you can open up anything after the meter, but I'm sure it happens millions of times in the US (300 million inhabitants, 1 out of 300 being a DIY seems conservative).
> 
> ...


Then joe blow DIY burns down his house and kills his family. Its called natural selection and its a beautiful thing :thumbup:

Seriously if you started writing the code for "what if" situations involving DIYs everything would have to be piped in rigid and encased in concrete :no:


----------



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

From trouble shooting AFCIs I think an insulated ground would be a great benefit, to many times the ground is touching the neutral and causing trips. 

Even AFCIs aside I believe an insulated ground is much safer because you eliminate the risk of the ground shorting to the neutral or hot in the box. The reason I say this is from seeing mass produced homes done by "economy builders" where the "electricians" just shove the outlets into the box and run. The installation is so sloppy Ill often have to fix tripping breaker conditions, and you can imagine when I open the box the ground wire is rubbing up against everything due to half-backed labor. 

Your lucky you live in Europe, from what Ive seen the standards are much higher. 

In case you dont know, AFCIs are called Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters, they trip if an arcing fault is detected. They are new in the USA, required in bedroom circuits in 2005 and all non GFCI circuits in 2008 NEC. GFCI, Ground Fault Circuit Interupters (RCD in Europe) are used on outdoor, bathroom, kitchen, Garage, pool, and kitchen outlets. In America they trip at 5 milliampers.


----------



## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

Apparently he lives in the UK and the tests are very stringent, there are some good rules and equipment over there and there are some bad, same as here. If they get everything right the first time they wouldn't need someone to re-write the code book every few years.


----------



## kaboler (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm more worried about what bare hots touch than bare grounds touch.


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

meadow said:


> Please excuse me but what is an EBC?


 
*E*quipment *B*onding *C*onductor


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

John_europe said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is probably going to be the stupidest question ever asked in this forum, but since I can't find the answer anywhere on the net I'm asking it here:
> 
> ...


The bare wire you are seeing is not an "earth" wire. It is a conductor that IS at ground/earth potential. There is a difference. That difference is that an egc is not a "grounding" wire...it is a "grounded" wire.


----------



## Englishsparky (Nov 6, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> The bare wire you are seeing is not an "earth" wire. It is a conductor that IS at ground/earth potential. There is a difference. That difference is that an egc is not a "grounding" wire...it is a "grounded" wire.


In which in the UK is the eqiupotential bond or commonly called the earth wire.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> The bare wire you are seeing is not an "earth" wire. It is a conductor that IS at ground/earth potential. There is a difference. That difference is that an egc is not a "grounding" wire...it is a "grounded" wire.


This is one of the problems with the code continuing to use an incorrect term. It leads us to use other "incorrect" terms to try to explain it. 

While the EGC is "grounded", it is not a "grounded conductor" as far as the code rules go. If was, it would have to be white, not green. 

It remains my opinion that the only time the conductor name should included the word "grounding" is when that conductor is directly connected to a grounding electrode, however that is not how the code is written.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> This is one of the problems with the code continuing to use an incorrect term. It leads us to use other "incorrect" terms to try to explain it.
> 
> While the EGC is "grounded", it is not a "grounded conductor" as far as the code rules go. If was, it would have to be white, not green.
> 
> It remains my opinion that the only time the conductor name should included the word "grounding" is when that conductor is directly connected to a grounding electrode, however that is not how the code is written.


 The EGC is a possible conductor. Hopefully, in a properly installed system it will never be used as such. It is, by definition a conductor...and it should be at ground potential.


----------



## 76nemo (Aug 13, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> The EGC is a possible conductor. Hopefully, in a properly installed system it will never be used as such. It is, by definition a conductor...and it should be at ground potential.


 
......"should be" and "will be" are two different subjects. I agree with the change to EBC. "Bonding" conductor..........


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> The EGC is a possible conductor. Hopefully, in a properly installed system it will never be used as such. It is, by definition a conductor...and it should be at ground potential.


That has nothing to do with what this conductor should be called.


----------



## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

egc sounds better


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

The way I wire devices is by jamming all the EGCs into the back of the box except for the pigtail extending to the device. And with that one, it's almost subconsciously automatic for me to fold that one in such a way that it can't physically contact (or even come close to) the ungrounded or grounded terminals on the device.

From a DIY safety perspective I'm more concerned about the creative ways I see people wire things in their own homes, such as #12 wire shoved into #14 backstabs, 3-way switch travelers connected to ground screws, backward-wrapped conductors stacked three-high on terminal screws, and 16 gauge extension cords snaked across the floor as permanent wiring. At least those have an insulated EGC.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

TOOL_5150 said:


> egc sounds better


 Only because that is what you always hear. The use of that technically incorrect term leads to lots of installation problems as many think that a connection to a grounding electrode will provide the same level of safety as would an Equipment Bonding (grounding) Conductor. We are bonding the non current carrying parts of the electrical equipment back to the main or system bonding jumper. The connection to earth really doesn't have anything to do with the main function of what we now call the EGC.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Personally I prefer the term Earthed when referencing any conductor CONNECTED TO EARTH.

Or I could easily buy into the EBC, then ground would only be as noted EARTH.

So many people (including electricians, engineers and facility maintenance personnel), think the Earth has a major impact on the operation of 480/277 and 208/120 (low voltage systems). And while this is an old statement and I know no one here believe this, some still think of the earth as a dumping ground for bad electrons (slight exaggeration).


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

RIVETER said:


> The EGC is a possible conductor. Hopefully, in a properly installed system it will never be used as such. It is, by definition a conductor...and it should be at ground potential.


 
I would bet in better that 50% (maybe higher) of commercial facilites utilizing concrete construction, metallic raceways or MC cable and metal studs. Some portion of the EGC is carrying SOME current.


----------



## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I can't tell you how many ec's thing that a ground rod is there to take over if the neutral fails. I can't believe so many are uneducated about this-- I know I was in the dark about it for a long time.


----------



## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

and so what if the guy wants to work on his own home....? BFD....


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

captkirk said:


> and so what if the guy wants to work on his own home....? BFD....


 
Brian's Axiom #1

Electricity is much more forgiving than we give it credit for, with all the hacks, DIYers, farmers and handymen, 2/3's of the house's in America should have burnt down, if this were not a universal truth.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

brian john said:


> Personally I prefer the term Earthed when referencing any conductor CONNECTED TO EARTH.
> 
> Or I could easily buy into the EBC, then ground would only be as noted EARTH.
> 
> ...


Earth or Earthed would be fine with me, but only as a term to replace GEC, not to replace EGC.


----------



## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Earth or Earthed would be fine with me, but only as a term to replace GEC, not to replace EGC.


 
Correct, STRICTLY FOR GEC and the GROUND ELECTRODE.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That has nothing to do with what this conductor should be called.


How so?


----------



## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Dennis Alwon said:


> I can't tell you how many ec's thing that a ground rod is there to take over if the neutral fails. I can't believe so many are uneducated about this-- I know I was in the dark about it for a long time.


Same with POCO guys.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

RIVETER said:


> How so?


Just because it is a conductor and is normally bonded to earth does not mean it should be called an EGC. It is my opinion that the term grounding should be reserved for conductors that are directly connected to the grounding electrodes. The indirect connection to earth for the conductor the code calls EGC is not important for the main function of that conductor. The main function of that conductor is to provide a fault clearing path back to the source, not to the earth. The use of the word "grounding" in the name of this conductor implies that a connection to earth is an important part of its function, but that is not correct. The fault clearing function really has nothing to do with a connection to earth.


----------



## erics37 (May 7, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The use of that technically incorrect term leads to lots of installation problems as many think that a connection to a grounding electrode will provide the same level of safety as would an Equipment Bonding (grounding) Conductor.


I imagine the CMP would want some hard data on this before they changed the name of such a fundamental backbone of the NEC.


----------



## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

erics37 said:


> I imagine the CMP would want some hard data on this before they changed the name of such a fundamental backbone of the NEC.


 Actually I was only one vote short of the required 2/3 majority when CMP 5 voted on my proposals. The proposals that were voted on by other panels did not fare as well, but if CMP 5 would have accepted the change the other CMPs would have no voice.

The Canadian Electrical Code made this change many years ago. It talking with some instructors from there, they tell me it made it much easier to get the students to understand the function of the EG(B)C.


----------



## Mr. Troubleshooter (Aug 21, 2011)

We use MC on every commercial job that I have ever been on and the bonding conductor is always insulated. I have only seen nm cable with bare bonding conductor


----------



## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

The OP can run 14/3 and 14/4 cut the bare ground, reindentify the red conductor to green and now have an insulated ground OR strip 6" lengths of green insulation off #12 solid and slide them on #14 bare grounds if it makes him feel better.


----------



## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

brian john said:


> I would bet in better that 50% (maybe higher) of commercial facilites utilizing concrete construction, metallic raceways or MC cable and metal studs. Some portion of the EGC is carrying SOME current.


If the installation is improperly installed, I'd say you are right.


----------

