# Installations without any drywall damage?



## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

I read that some guys can install recessed lights and other fixtures without cutting any access holes in the drywall. I can't see how that is totally possible. 

For recessed lights I read some guys use long flex bits and use an inspection camera but what about the top plate above the switch box to run your switch leg? 

i would love to do recessed lights without any cuts!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

It CAN be done, but you need the proper tools and some building experience to make it work.

A couple weeks ago, I installed 8 cans lights in a finished basement with no drywall damage at all.

But there are times that cutting the drywall is required. Then you hire a good patch man.


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

I have done it but you have to have the right house and a lot of luck/skill.

I have fished from the switch box down into a crawl space then over to a wall bay where the recessed can would be. From the crawl I use bit extensions and drill up thru the bottom plate all the way thru to the top plate. With the can hole cut out in that bay you can almost reach in and catch the fish tape or rod pushed in from below.


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

I know you can do the can lights with an inspection camera and a flex bit but i'm talking mainly about the top plates. There is no way you can get away without notching the drywall at the top plates to fish down to the box.

I can fish with the best of em I use many things fish stix, fish tape fiberglass and metal, cut pieces of metal tape, chains, rope, magnets etc...

I read someone used a flex bit and drilled up from the switch box through the plates? That just seems risky to me. Then how do you fish from a hole you can't see?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

There are times you simply MUST cut an access.

It's _drywall_, not marble!


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

480sparky said:


> There are times you simply MUST cut an access.
> 
> It's _drywall_, not marble!


I understand this but the customers don't unfortunately.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Depends on the construction. If you can drill a hole up from the switch box opening through the plate with a flex bit, shove a fish tape or rod through, and then hook it with another fish stick from the top it will work. Everything has to go perfect though. One of my fish sticks is up in someone's ceiling joist with the end broke off!!


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

I've drilled from a switch through a top plate and then work through my 6" hole and get stick mated up. Most of the time I can do this with a sting on one and a hook on the other. I have also use a camera in an existing switch box opening (adding a switch) I managed to push my stick right through the existing hole in the top plate that already had a wire through it. Same thing reach in with stick from your light hole and grab it. If there's a kneewall in the room above it, most people don't mind cutting holes in the subfloor behind the kneewalls and get into the ceiling bays.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

sparkyforlife said:


> I know you can do the can lights with an inspection camera and a flex bit but i'm talking mainly about the top plates. There is no way you can get away without notching the drywall at the top plates to fish down to the box.
> 
> I can fish with the best of em I use many things fish stix, fish tape fiberglass and metal, cut pieces of metal tape, chains, rope, magnets etc...
> 
> I read someone used a flex bit and drilled up from the switch box through the plates? That just seems risky to me. Then how do you fish from a hole you can't see?


Cut in switch, or remove old new work box and prep for old work box.

Stick camera in box hole amd check for wires.

Insert flex bit and drill where there are no wires...no visible wires.

Cut in recessed lights.

Insert camera to check for wires plumbing mech.

Drill through joist with flex bit, on angle towards switch.

Insert camera.

Drill through joist, inserting camera each time.

Repeat as necessary.

Pull out flex bit.

Put lots of string on the end of fish stick and insert through holes until you are over the top plate/hole that you drilled.

Insert fish stick with hook through the top plate hole.

Grab string. 

Tie wire on to string.

Profit.

Sure, it's risky. But if you're going to cut holes everywhere anyway, its not such a big deal. I've actualLy seen a plumber poke through a pipe with a jab saw while in the process of tracking down a leak, so everything has a bit of risk involved. Sometimes you will have to drill down in to the basement or crawl space, and drill from the basement up to the ceiling to get closest to the can. Sometimes it's possible to remove a fixture or exhaust fan in an adjacent room to loop the wire down/up/around. It's not always easy, but for the most part, it's usually possible especially in the northeast where we have basements and crawl spaces.

Risk/reward.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparkyforlife said:


> I understand this but the customers don't unfortunately.



You need to educate the customer then. Just because _electrician_ rhymes with _magician_ doesn't mean we do the same thing.


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## SteveO. (Oct 17, 2011)

I've found most of the time you're adding pots its in a kitchen that had multiple surface lights, and the ceiling needs to be repaired anyways. Since most ceilings here are stipple, I always tell the homeowner that I'll be cutting an access strip across the room and they'll need it repaired before they can respray the ceiling. I'm an electrician, not a taper and I don't fix holes. It's understood here(and stated on my quote) that drywall repair is not included and is the responsibility of the homeowner.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I go the extra mile and hire a drywall sub to come in after me to do the patching. And yes, it's in the bid. Painting, however, is up to the HO.


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

I just installed 8 cans in this kitchen yesterday with no extra holes. I forgot to take after pics before I left. 3 4" cans in the soffit and 5 in the main ceiling.


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## svh19044 (Jul 1, 2008)

k_buz said:


> I just installed 8 cans in this kitchen yesterday with no extra holes. I forgot to take after pics before I left. 3 4" cans in the soffit and 5 in the main ceiling.


The soffit is cheating. :laughing:


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## Fishingeveryday (Jul 16, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I just installed 8 cans in this kitchen yesterday with no extra holes. I forgot to take after pics before I left. 3 4" cans in the soffit and 5 in the main ceiling.


How long did that take you? Where was the switch located?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Fishingeveryday said:


> How long did that take you? Where was the switch located?


6 Hours...switch for the main ceiling was already up there. The switch for the soffit cans went down the outside wall across the basement and up the basement stair wall to an existing switch box where one of the two existing switches was not in use.


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

I've had good luck doing what McClary recommended and removing existing devices and fixtures to flex bit from them. Between that and pulling off wood molding to get between stud bays or though top/bottom plates, and with a lot of luck, it can be done.

But every time I drill with a flex bit my blood pressure goes up. It's basically a gamble where the damn thing is gonna go. I bet having an inspection camera would turn it into a bit more of a science.

-John


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## adroga (Mar 3, 2011)

What about aligning the location if the pots to avoid floor joists and structure that can't be cut or notched.

Maybe newer houses 16" OC, but an old plaster lathe ceiling there is never any consistency.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

sparkyforlife said:


> I understand this but the customers don't unfortunately.


You just tell them beforehand that you will need to cut holes and show them where they will be,. I use a 4" hole saw and save the puck for patching,,As long as you do a neat job they will be happy there is no way to get past the top plate unless you have access to the attic.


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Big John said:


> I've had good luck doing what McClary recommended and removing existing devices and fixtures to flex bit from them. Between that and pulling off wood molding to get between stud bays or though top/bottom plates, and with a lot of luck, it can be done.
> 
> But every time I drill with a flex bit my blood pressure goes up. It's basically a gamble where the damn thing is gonna go. I bet having an inspection camera would turn it into a bit more of a science.
> 
> -John


You mean like going through the Opposite wall where the top of the line wall paper is..:whistling2:


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## cal1947 (Nov 14, 2009)

*cal1947*

you and a helper or ust you


k_buz said:


> 6 Hours...switch for the main ceiling was already up there. The switch for the soffit cans went down the outside wall across the basement and up the basement stair wall to an existing switch box where one of the two existing switches was not in use.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

HARRY304E said:


> You mean like going through the Opposite wall where the top of the line wall paper is..:whistling2:


 

or worse, pop out in a hardwood floor upstairs:whistling2:


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> or worse, pop out in a hardwood floor upstairs:whistling2:


:laughing::laughing::whistling2:


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

adroga said:


> What about aligning the location if the pots to avoid floor joists and structure that can't be cut or notched.


Stud finders.



adroga said:


> Maybe newer houses 16" OC, but an old plaster lathe ceiling there is never any consistency.


Usually, the way the first floor is framed is copied onto the second floor. The difference might be ducts, pipes, etc.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

If it wasn't mentioned already those of us in the northeast are often blessed with strapped ceilings.


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## aDudeInPhx (Feb 20, 2012)

k_buz said:


> I just installed 8 cans in this kitchen yesterday with no extra holes. I forgot to take after pics before I left. 3 4" cans in the soffit and 5 in the main ceiling.


Is that house 2 story?


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## Big John (May 23, 2010)

nrp3 said:


> If it wasn't mentioned already those of us in the northeast are often blessed with strapped ceilings.


 And lots of balloon framing.

-John


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## Dennis Alwon (May 9, 2009)

sparkyforlife said:


> I know you can do the can lights with an inspection camera and a flex bit but i'm talking mainly about the top plates. There is no way you can get away without notching the drywall at the top plates to fish down to the box.


Did you read my post. I explained how to do it. http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/installations-without-any-drywall-damage-46639/#post863748


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## dthurmond (Feb 7, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> or worse, pop out in a hardwood floor upstairs:whistling2:


I had that exact thing happen . At least it was a small hole .


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

aDudeInPhx said:


> Is that house 2 story?


Yes. 



cal1947 said:


> you and a helper or ust you


Just me.

I'm waiting on the after pictures. I'll post them when he sends me them.


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## TOOL_5150 (Aug 27, 2007)

I have no problem telling customers im going to have to put holes in their walls, then I give them my friends card who does drywall and paint... its win/win for us.


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

sparkyforlife said:


> I understand this but the customers don't unfortunately.


Simply explain it to them. It's done successfully every single day.

Wood paneling, crown molding and wallpaper can present a problem but painted drywall is nothing.


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## drspec (Sep 29, 2012)

We reinstall any drywall we remove. Leave it up to the HO to get bit repaired and painted.
Have it in the estimate we aren't responsible for any damage or repairs to drywall.


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

I always tell them ahead of time there will be cuts in the drywall but i keep it a minimum. I lose some jobs because I only do a rough patch 1 coat. I tell them a proper patch really takes 3 coats but you might be able to do 2 coats. This scares them and they say "oh I don't want to go through all that".


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## Magnettica (Jan 23, 2007)

k_buz said:


> I just installed 8 cans in this kitchen yesterday with no extra holes. I forgot to take after pics before I left. 3 4" cans in the soffit and 5 in the main ceiling.


Without after pictures it did not happen. :no:


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

480sparky said:


> It CAN be done, but you need the proper tools and some building experience to make it work.
> 
> A couple weeks ago, I installed 8 cans lights in a finished basement with no drywall damage at all.
> 
> But there are times that cutting the drywall is required. Then you hire a good patch man.


ditto.....only i patch my own holes...

i have three nice recessed light jobs coming up and i will post some pics...

most of the time you have to at least cut a small hole above the switch location....... but every home is different..... a good knowledge of framing helps...


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## EJPHI (May 7, 2008)

I had a summer job working for andold timer EC. We did a fire alarm installation in a 1920's house with plaster and lathe wall finish. I learned a lot about fishing wire without breaking the surface. That old timer was amazing!! But hey that was 30+ years ago. Since then I learned to patch sheetrock, and this is how I roll:





It is a lot tuogher to keep the ceiling finish intact if the floor joists are against you, and there are a lot of plumbing, HVAC, and other trades in the way.

EJPHI


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

sparkyforlife said:


> I always tell them ahead of time there will be cuts in the drywall but i keep it a minimum. I lose some jobs because I only do a rough patch 1 coat. *I tell them a proper patch really takes 3 coats* but you might be able to do 2 coats. *This scares them *and they say "oh I don't want to go through all that".


You are sabotaging yourself.

Tell them the truth. ...that typical drywall repair is easy. 

I just rough patch and have never to my knowledge lost a job because of it. A LOT of times, my rough patch can be painted over. 10 minute mud dries fast so even two coats doesn't take too long.


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## woostaguy (Nov 19, 2012)

try your best to penetrate the top plate in an adjacent closet on the other side of the wall or less visible area... your customers will be more likely to accept a hole in the closet than trying to match ceiling textures in their L/R.


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Do you guys ever notch the joists or do you just lay the wire,staple,and spackle?


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

Elephante said:


> Do you guys ever notch the joists or do you just lay the wire,staple,and spackle?


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## k_buz (Mar 12, 2012)

Elephante said:


> Do you guys ever notch the joists or do you just lay the wire,staple,and spackle?



:blink::no::no::blink:


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

:blink::no::no::blink: :whistling2:


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## Elephante (Nov 16, 2011)

I just run it under the Sheetrock and use big staples.f notching besides 14 wire is white it will match the Sheetrock.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

*look ma no holes...*

little high hat job today... 8 four inchers no holes ....


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

sparkyforlife said:


> I read that some guys can install recessed lights and other fixtures without cutting any access holes in the drywall. I can't see how that is totally possible.
> 
> For recessed lights I read some guys use long flex bits and use an inspection camera but what about the top plate above the switch box to run your switch leg?
> 
> i would love to do recessed lights without any cuts!


the plain truth is.... you are gonna make three types
of holes... ones for the lights, ones for the switches,
and ones for the hands.

i've expanded the scope of lights to get close enough to the
wall to snoodle. putting a can in a hole is cheaper sometimes
than having someone out to patch.

"but i'm only wanting eight lights!!!!"

"yes, i understand that, but i can put two more lights
in for $200 more, or... you can refinish the entire ceiling
for $350. your call."

getting around the top plate on the first floor with joists
pretty much is gonna require making a handhole. 

i don't count handholes, i count surfaces to be redone.
if i cut one hole in a wall, the wall is patched and repainted 
most likely in it's entirety. so if i have to cut three holes in
that surface, it's all the same. the patch guy is gonna charge
the same. it's the drive time and setup, not the amount of holes
within reason. last time i did 18 can lights in two rooms, there
were six holes to be patched. my patching guy came out with
10 minute hot patch, and was done in two hours or so.

if it'd been one hole, it'd still been two hours. stuff has to dry
and be sanded.


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## Zparme (Nov 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> little high hat job today... 8 four inchers no holes ....


Looks nice! Was there access from above? Or did you just use a flex bit?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

flex bit. the switches where in the same bay as one of the lights and there was an outlet underneath for power. i was able to identify that there was a cat in the wall about 48 inches from the floor so i put the two gang square in the middle of it. when i cut the hole for the box i have to drill out the cat this made it really easy to go up wall and down the outlet.
it was a slam dunk. i started this job really late in the day..and i was really happy to finish it and get paid..


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

this is the one thing (and probably the only) in all of electrical work that i am good at. ....:-/


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## danickstr (Mar 21, 2010)

My only concern is what about things like water pipes, HDPE gas lines, other wiring, ducts, that may be on the other side of the joist when my flex bit is chewing through the 2nd or third joist. That would be a surprise. And no camera will see them unless you can drill only through the joist and stop and use the cam.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

The 2 rooms above this room were bedrooms I wouldn't be so daring if there were bathrooms above. Notching plaster and lath bites the big 1


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

captkirk said:


> flex bit. the switches where in the same bay as one of the lights and there was an outlet underneath for power. i was able to identify that there was a cat in the wall about 48 inches from the floor so i put the two gang square in the middle of it. when i cut the hole for the box i have to drill out the cat this made it really easy to go up wall and down the outlet.
> it was a slam dunk. i started this job really late in the day..and i was really happy to finish it and get paid..


That seems like a far distance to go between lights, you just drill straight thru with a flex bit?

How about getting into the ceiling from the switch location in the wall?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Dangerously said:


> That seems like a far distance to go between lights, you just drill straight thru with a flex bit?
> 
> How about getting into the ceiling from the switch location in the wall?


i go three bays max one way and one the other way. if yiur try to go more than three you run a real risk of coming up through the floor. if the bays are smaller than 2x 10s ill go two max.

on this particular job i was able to drill up and get into the same bay as one of the lights...plus i had a outlet right underneath my switch location...

i usually have to make a hole over the switches though...but every job is different


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

I know it's been discussed here and I've done it myself a few times, but I would like to know your way of getting from the switch into the ceiling without making holes. After you drill up from the switch location, I assume you send up a snake and then send a second snake from the light hole to catch the first? One you are snaked, how do you pull the romex from the wall to the ceiling without scraping it on the edge of the hole?


Also, good catch on the cat in the wall, how did you find that through plaster and lath? Stud finder?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

i do lots of old work in plaster and lath and i do a sh it ton of knocking on walls, looking at beams in the basememt, looking at whats on the second floor, knock on the walls side to side and horizontal before 
i even put my tools on.

yes i used two snakes.... i was kind of lucky here because the top plate wasnt that far from the high hat hole so i used a short stick to help me get the wire down the hole without shredding it. it was alot easier when the three wire was round. the new **** sucks because it catches easily and tears. if its two wire im pulling down i pull on the jacket for about ten feet or so to tighten it up 
on the wire and make it a little easier to pull through the hole.

i have a lot of tricks..im not a big fan of stud finders on plaster. i have this little magnet thing that works much better. it finds the nails on the lath.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

i have another job comming up, i will post more step by step pics...


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

This is why I wouldn't blind drill with a flex bit. This is inside a hole I cut for a can light. This was on the first floor with a bedroom above. What do you see stapled onto that joist:whistling2:


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

captkirk said:


> it was alot easier when the three wire was round.


Have you tried Southwire 14-3 from HD? I believe it's still round.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

sparkyforlife said:


> This is why I wouldn't blind drill with a flex bit. This is inside a hole I cut for a can light. This was on the first floor with a bedroom above. What do you see stapled onto that joist:whistling2:


i never said it was the best or smartest way to do it .....just my way...lol


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

captkirk said:


> i never said it was the best or smartest way to do it .....just my way...lol


The flex bit is a good way just with an inspection camera


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

captkirk said:


> flex bit. the switches where in the same bay as one of the lights and there was an outlet underneath for power. i was able to identify that there was a cat in the wall about 48 inches from the floor so i put the two gang square in the middle of it. when i cut the hole for the box i have to drill out the cat this made it really easy to go up wall and down the outlet.
> it was a slam dunk. i started this job really late in the day..and i was really happy to finish it and get paid..


Please help a country boy out and tell me what is a cat in the wall!

thought for a minute you were using a cat to pull a string in for you!:laughing:

Seriously, what do you mean by cat?


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

sparkyforlife said:


> The flex bit is a good way just with an inspection camera


The camera won't help if that romex was on the side of the joist that he was drilling through. He would have already drilled through it before he pulled the drill out and put the inspection camera into the hole. 

The camera helps stop you from going through a pipe that is inside of the joist hollow. But I think after a while you can feel when you finish cutting through a joist and then use the tip of the drill bit to feel around for obstructions like a pipe.


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## Dangerously (Dec 1, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> Please help a country boy out and tell me what is a cat in the wall!
> 
> thought for a minute you were using a cat to pull a string in for you!:laughing:
> 
> Seriously, what do you mean by cat?


A piece of blocking in the wall running horizontal from stud to stud. Sometimes they are called fireblocks.


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

fire stop.... a 2 x 4 going horizontal in the wall. they dont always put them in new homes if the ceiling is under 9 feet but almost always if its 12 foot ceilings. and i see a lot of older homes with them..


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## 220/221 (Sep 25, 2007)

captkirk said:


> fire stop.... a 2 x 4 going horizontal in the wall. they dont always put them in new homes if the ceiling is under 9 feet but almost always if its 12 foot ceilings. and i see a lot of older homes with them..


Around here, currently, fireblocking is only required over 8' but I see it all the time in pre 1960 housing.


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## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

Dangerously said:


> A piece of blocking in the wall running horizontal from stud to stud. Sometimes they are called fireblocks.





captkirk said:


> fire stop.... a 2 x 4 going horizontal in the wall. they dont always put them in new homes if the ceiling is under 9 feet but almost always if its 12 foot ceilings. and i see a lot of older homes with them..





220/221 said:


> Around here, currently, fireblocking is only required over 8' but I see it all the time in pre 1960 housing.


Well, I ain't as dumb as I thought. I know about fire blocks, just never heard them called "cats" before.
Where did that term come from?


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## captkirk (Nov 21, 2007)

Little-Lectric said:


> Well, I ain't as dumb as I thought. I know about fire blocks, just never heard them called "cats" before.
> Where did that term come from?


im not sure, thays just what they were called around here...


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## sparkyforlife (Sep 4, 2012)

Little-Lectric said:


> Well, I ain't as dumb as I thought. I know about fire blocks, just never heard them called "cats" before.
> Where did that term come from?


I never heard them called cats either always just called fire blocks.


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## Greg Sparkovich (Sep 15, 2007)

GREAT advice here.
I'll add that sometimes I tape a piece of (say 5") ground wire over the "joint" between the fish and the cable so that the weight of the cable doesn't sag down and make a difficult 90 degree bend between the fish and the cable.

I use a lot of wall/ceiling knocking and the Franklin stud-finder (worth the $50-$60 price tag).

I strongly recommend LSD -Labor Saving Devices- for rods with lots of interchangeable tips. LSD has a good selection of magnets and attaching a magnetic "bullet" to a fish tape can be a good way to help 2 magnets find each other.

I bought 100' of magnetic chain years ago for a lifetime supply.

The "Magna-Pull" set up has a nice bullet that is designed to be pulled through insulation (...also taped to a fish or fish rod). The magna pull roller can be great for moving a chain to where you want it -it's strong enough to move a fish tape through drywall or sometimes even plaster. Sometimes rolling it around doesn't grab the chain or whatever, but it moves it enough to make some noise so I know where it is.

I sell myself as a "no or low" hole electrician, but I also warn my customers that even an expert can make mistakes. So if someone wants an absolute promise, I suggest that they find someone else who is better than me. They usually back down and I usually meet expectations, but I never want to be in the position of promising something and screwing it up. :-(


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