# Ring buss



## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

When did this design come into use? Which country was the first to use it?


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## Bird dog (Oct 27, 2015)

Also known as a loop(?) vs a radial system.


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## joebanana (Dec 21, 2010)

http://www.electrical4u.com/ Try this.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

joebanana said:


> http://www.electrical4u.com/ Try this.



Doesnt say anything about ring buss


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## splatz (May 23, 2015)

I wouldn't have a clue but googled out of curiosity and this came up, some cool old drawings and photos

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa3600/pa3680/data/pa3680data.pdf

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/hh/item/pa3680/ 

A book from 1909 ... couldn't be too much older than that could it?

edit - It was "almost universal" in 1903? 

Engineering, volume 76, page 605, 1903

The Electrical Engineer, Volume 31 - 1903


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

'09?? I wouldn't be surprised to learn of another Edison era patent stolen from Tesla Splatz...~C:whistling2:S~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

splatz said:


> I wouldn't have a clue but googled out of curiosity and this came up, some cool old drawings and photos
> 
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa3600/pa3680/data/pa3680data.pdf
> 
> ...



:notworthy::notworthy: That pure awesome!  And thank you!  


So it seems ring buss came from or was predominately a European thing?

Also, what interesting is it seem the earliest ring buss systems were simply manual switches for the ease of switching devices for maintenance, while the breakers (fault interrupting) where still directly in series with the outgoing feeder like single breaker single buss. 

Did they not have the relaying technology back then to do the same with the breakers?


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## dmxtothemax (Jun 15, 2010)

Since the main purpose of a ring main/buss
Seems to be to fight voltage loss,
I would guess that it hails from the DC era.
And as far as I know only the UK use it.
So maybe post your question on the UK forum ?
Maybe some of the old timers over there will know ?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Our secondary network feeders come off a ring buss. They're still used in the states, one of the most expensive but also most reliable substation designs. If one part of the buss faults or needs to be deenergized for work, you can sectionalize the buss to keep everyone hot.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

JW Splicer said:


> Our secondary network feeders come off a ring buss. They're still used in the states, one of the most expensive but also most reliable substation designs. If one part of the buss faults or needs to be deenergized for work, you can sectionalize the buss to keep everyone hot.




Called a ring buss ?

We wired a Car Race Track , and they " Loop feed the Primary 13.8 for the xfmrs "
then wire in the 11 - 480 v services ,

This way the Pri. are fed both ways if a break in the line ... 

you do not loose the system ..

This might be called a Radial Buss ?
or
Radial Buss Spur System ?



Is that kinda what you are doing ?



Don


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

donaldelectrician said:


> Called a ring buss ?
> 
> We wired a Car Race Track , and they " Loop feed the Primary 13.8 for the xfmrs "
> then wire in the 11 - 480 v services ,
> ...


Nope, you are talking about a primary loop distribution scheme, which normally has an open point in the loop. Our network feeders are actually a radial distribution scheme. You could loop them, but now you've essentially reached the law of diminishing return, you can only put so much time and money into an almost fail proof system.

We have the tertiary of our 3 or 4 distribution transformers feed directly into a ring buss scheme substation. the autoxfmr primary is 240KV with a tap at 120KV and another at 26KV for overhead distribution, the tertiary is 13.8KV delta with a zig zag xfmr for a ground reference/ relay protection. The ring buss feeds breakers that feed the secondary network feeder cable. On a network, the primary voltage is stepped down to a lower service voltage (125/216 or 480/277) and the secondaries are then banked together to a common buss, the customer is fed directly from the buss. A ring buss fed secondary network system is highly reliable (99.9%) and can run N-1 at the station, as well as the customer vault. A vault fire is about the only thing that will drop a customer.


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## donaldelectrician (Sep 30, 2010)

JW Splicer said:


> Nope, you are talking about a primary loop distribution scheme, which normally has an open point in the loop. Our network feeders are actually a radial distribution scheme. You could loop them, but now you've essentially reached the law of diminishing return, you can only put so much time and money into an almost fail proof system.
> 
> We have the tertiary of our 3 or 4 distribution transformers feed directly into a ring buss scheme substation. the autoxfmr primary is 240KV with a tap at 120KV and another at 26KV for overhead distribution, the tertiary is 13.8KV delta with a zig zag xfmr for a ground reference/ relay protection. The ring buss feeds breakers that feed the secondary network feeder cable. On a network, the primary voltage is stepped down to a lower service voltage (125/216 or 480/277) and the secondaries are then banked together to a common buss, the customer is fed directly from the buss. A ring buss fed secondary network system is highly reliable (99.9%) and can run N-1 at the station, as well as the customer vault. A vault fire is about the only thing that will drop a customer.


 

JW Splicer - 

Thank you ... Yea this is a weird one ... done for pure reliability ...

I think it is called a " Radial Spur " ... , " 13.8 Pri and 480 sec XFMR.s " ,

The " Looped Pri Feed" , Fed both ways , will allow a XFMR to Burn and be taken out of system ...

The other XFMR.s are back on line ...

The " Spur " , part of it is the , " secondary 480 side ' , each service is a 3ph 480v

We had 11 , 1200A to 1000A Services Looped Togeather this way at a Car Race Track .




Don


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> Our secondary network feeders come off a ring buss. They're still used in the states, one of the most expensive but also most reliable substation designs. If one part of the buss faults or needs to be deenergized for work, you can sectionalize the buss to keep everyone hot.



Isnt breaker and a half more pricey with double breaker double buss the most expensive?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

JW Splicer said:


> Nope, you are talking about a primary loop distribution scheme, which normally has an open point in the loop. Our network feeders are actually a radial distribution scheme. You could loop them, but now you've essentially reached the law of diminishing return, you can only put so much time and money into an almost fail proof system.


Not only that, bus fault current increases and protective relaying becomes a specialty. 




> We have the tertiary of our 3 or 4 distribution transformers feed directly into a ring buss scheme substation. the autoxfmr primary is 240KV with a tap at 120KV and another at 26KV for overhead distribution, the tertiary is 13.8KV delta with a zig zag xfmr for a ground reference/ relay protection. The ring buss feeds breakers that feed the secondary network feeder cable. On a network, the primary voltage is stepped down to a lower service voltage (125/216 or 480/277) and the secondaries are then banked together to a common buss, the customer is fed directly from the buss. A ring buss fed secondary network system is highly reliable (99.9%) and can run N-1 at the station, as well as the customer vault. A vault fire is about the only thing that will drop a customer.



What bus scheme is used at 240 and 120Kv?


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## JW Splicer (Mar 15, 2014)

Single buss with sectionalizers I believe. Same with the 26KV although there are 26KV rings for network areas here, and a 26KV ring in at least one sub for overhead distribution. The substation guys would know more. Up here every sub is different, not a single sub is the same. Most subs do have 3 incoming transmission lines that feed the switch yard (buss), then hit the XFMR which may be an auto, or not. Then hit the distribution switch yard, and finally out too the customer.


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## dtmartin408 (Nov 11, 2012)

*loops and rings.*

I operate a system where we have all types of loops and rings in are older portion of our system. We have stations where we have multiple transformers in parallel that feed a linkage bus, which is then paralleled with the individual bus's, with operating points to sectionalize if needed. We have looped power lines that come of the different bus's from two positions that feed out and are tied all the way through. We have networks where we bank all the secondaries. The older portions of our system were built with loops and rings in the stations, on the lines, and in the secondary for reliability. It doesn't really have to do with loading due to the fact that if you take a portion of the system out of service it now becomes a radial feed and may not be able to handle the loading. we also have distribution lines that are a 4.8kv ungrounded delta that are ringed as well. Wire comes down/tree on the line, theres no fault since its ungrounded, and the lights stay on since its a ring. The relaying and voltage controls in this part of our system are very complex though compared to our 13.2kv wye system which is all radial feeds.


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