# Just passing through, WTF?



## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

I bet this would throw off anyone trying to figure out the fill of panel cabinet.

Opened an existing panel today to find 3/4 sealtight passing through the inside of the panel from the top to the bottom. The sealtight was labled "water heater", couldnt believe it. :laughing:


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

Is it just run through the KOs, top and bottom?

The funny thing is, that doesn't violate the fill %s.


Might violate a few other articles, though... :laughing:


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

That looks like typical socal work.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

Not a *HORRIBLE*-looking panel, otherwise...but, yeah, the sealtite pass-thru is a bit wierd.

No color identification on the main feeder conductors...

No Green identification on the EGC ...or is that a *GEC* ...???

The 3-pole breaker at the bottom appears to have the same color identification on 2 of its 3 conductors...


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh, I'm an idiot (or maybe just tired)...I see the grounded conductor with the white tape on it. . . So what *IS* the smaller black conductor on that buss?

Funny, tape that grounded conductor that much, but not the mains.....


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

BP_redbear said:


> Oh, I'm an idiot (or maybe just tired)...I see the grounded conductor with the white tape on it. . . So what *IS* the smaller black conductor on that buss?
> 
> Funny, tape that grounded conductor that much, but not the mains.....


I would say offhand it's the neutral for the circuit powered by the three pole breaker on the lower right.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

I forgot to mention this is a 277/480 panel and all the branch circuits are black, red, blue. There are three of these panels wired this way... scary. even the feeders are identified this way. Theyre phased just inside the conduit but you cant see this in the photo.

If you look at the breaker on the lower right youll notice that the "C" phase is taped orange. Thats about the only thing right about this install.

Some of the other panels are a mixture of the low and high voltage colors.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> I forgot to mention this is a 277/480 panel and all the branch circuits are black, red, blue. There are three of these panels wired this way... scary. even the feeders are identified this way. Theyre phased just inside the conduit but you cant see this in the photo.


So?



Adam12 said:


> If you look at the breaker on the lower right youll notice that the "C" phase is taped orange. Thats about the only thing right about this install.


Looks like both B & C are orange.



Adam12 said:


> Some of the other panels are a mixture of the low and high voltage colors.


Again, is that a violation?


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

No its not a violation, but im sure you understand why I mention it.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Adam12 said:


> No its not a violation, but im sure you understand why I mention it.


I understand. But I will, on occasion, use Black, Red and Blue on 277 and 480 volt stuff. For specific reasons.


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

Ive seen it used this way on some industrial jobs but never in your "typical" commercial job. So its foreign to me in this application. 

I would think that it would pave the way for disaster? Sitting in a unmarked j box or something. The potential for "*letting the smoke out*" or getting hurt is increased.


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## RSmike (Jul 31, 2008)

Using a panelboard as a raceway - code violation. Unless someone is actually running hot water through that sealtight....then it's a plumbing violation. 

RSlater,
RSmike


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## Mountain Electrician (Jan 22, 2007)

480sparky said:


> I understand. But I will, on occasion, use Black, Red and Blue on 277 and 480 volt stuff. For specific reasons.


Worked in an oil refinery once whose 480V systems were all B/R/B


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## kawaikfx400 (Jul 14, 2008)

yes, panel is not allowed to be a raceway. I dont know the code # off hand.


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## azsly1 (Nov 12, 2008)

sealtight is the race way, panel is not a support for the raceway. whats the min support on sealtight anyway, 36"?


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

what would be the reason for doing this


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## Adam12 (May 28, 2008)

electricalperson said:


> what would be the reason for doing this


Because your lazy and a moron. Not you EP, the installer


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## fireproof74 (Dec 28, 2008)

The code only addresses the color coding of the grounding and grounded conductors right now, however color phasing will be a requirement soon by the NEC. You are correct, using a panel board for a raceway is a code violation.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

fireproof74 said:


> The code only addresses the color coding of the grounding and grounded conductors right now, however color phasing will be a requirement soon by the NEC. You are correct, using a panel board for a raceway is a code violation.


For 50 years, there have been proposals made every code cycle to initiate certain color codes for certain voltage and phase configurations. Every cycle, the CMPs reply the same: It is a design issue. Other than white, grey, green and green with yellow stripes, there isn't much the Code has to say about what colors you use for ungrounded conductors. Unless you can provide some radically convincing evidence to the contrary, I doubt the NEC will make such a rule.


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## electricalperson (Jan 11, 2008)

Adam12 said:


> Because your lazy and a moron. Not you EP, the installer


that looks like it would be more work than just fishing down the wall or just doing it right hte first time. did he add a receptacle below the panel?


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## sgr1 (Sep 21, 2008)

The wires on the breaker are marked, nothing A Phase, two wraps of tape B Phase, Three wraps of tape C Phase. I have done this to identify phases with black tape when pulling them but I always change when terminating.


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## fireproof74 (Dec 28, 2008)

I believe the newest NEC is requiring color coding to be done by the installer and on to top it off, to put a color code legend on the front of the panel.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Fireproof, when there are different system voltages present in a building, the code requires you identify circuits as to which system and phase. Color is one of the methods allowed. This has been code for long time.


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## fireproof74 (Dec 28, 2008)

I actually think that the code is going to require certain phase colors now. I dont know why it has been such a long time until this becomes a code requirement. It just makes too much sense i guess.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

fireproof74 said:


> I believe the newest NEC is requiring color coding to be done by the installer and on to top it off, to put a color code legend on the front of the panel.


First part, no. Second part, partially true..... onlyif there is more than one nominal voltage in the structure. 210.5(C) in the '08.



fireproof74 said:


> I actually think that the code is going to require certain phase colors now. I dont know why it has been such a long time until this becomes a code requirement. It just makes too much sense i guess.


Every code cycle, the CMP's response has been the same for the proposals to that effect: It is a design issue, and not a safety issue.



macmikeman said:


> Fireproof, when there are different system voltages present in a building, the code requires you identify circuits as to which system and phase. Color is one of the methods allowed. This has been code for long time.


Since the 1990.


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## JohnJ0906 (Jan 22, 2007)

kawaikfx400 said:


> yes, panel is not allowed to be a raceway. I dont know the code # off hand.


Read 312.8 _in it's entirety_. A panel cabinet can be used as a raceway. 

I don't think that article allows a raceway to be installed in a panel cabinet though. That said, the NEC is a permissive document. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. So, what article is that sealtight violating? :whistling2:

110.12 don't count! :laughing:


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## bobelectric (Feb 24, 2007)

kawaikfx400 said:


> yes, panel is not allowed to be a raceway. I dont know the code # off hand.


What about when you use a panel for an isolated ground back to the main ground?


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## electricista (Jan 11, 2009)

As mentioned art 312.8 does allow panels to be used as a raceway. The bolded section is key to this article.



> 312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
> Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, *unless adequate space for this purpose is provided*. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.


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