# General Question



## bobbarker (Aug 6, 2015)

The electrical contractor must fix all wiring even code violations free of charge. 
The electrical contractor must also clean the house and cook meals when he is hired. 
The electrical contractor must walk the dog 
The electrical contractor must rub the clients nasty feet when they are sore 
The electrical contractor must bow to the client, Japanese style even if they are not Japanese. 
The electrical contractor must wear proper work mittens
The electrical contractor must provide advice to those looking to put the blame on them 

Aren't you happy you are not an electrician?


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## RePhase277 (Feb 5, 2008)

If an EC needs a permit for a job, most places require that they be the purchaser, not the customer. If a code violation exists but is unrelated to the work being performed by an EC, then I would say they aren't liable for it. Now, if a violation exists on equipment or circuits they're attending, and they knowingly ignore it, they are liable.

Having said this, it is reasonable to bring up code violations to customers. However, many many many customers react skeptically, thinking the contractor is simply trying to generate more work. Knowing this, many ECs don't bother pointing out minor violations, for fear of the negative reaction from the customer.


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## Switched (Dec 23, 2012)

With the code changing every 3 years.... There are going to be too many violations to list!

SF has it's own code as well, so you should first off only use an EC that is familiar with their specific codes. That being said, the AHJ will often times not say anything, unless a life/safety matter, about pre-existing violations that have zero to do with the scope of work.

The EC, especially in SF, should deal with the permit.

The EC should not be liable for pre-existing conditions if it doesn't fall within the scope of work. In SF if a panel is in a place that it is no longer allowed I as the EC must move it in order to install a new circuit, I have to bring everything up to code that I touch. Problem is, not every inspector in the city feels that way, so enforcement is iffy at best.

Most PM I have dealt with don't give two S*&s about what is wrong, they just want the immediate project/problem solved and that is it, they manage an investment for people who don't care, so they don't care, so then........ Why should the EC care?


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

Let me elaborate..

My employee, who is an on-site contracted stationary engineer proposed a solution to an electrical issue. The EC agreed it was a good idea, the project was approved and installed. Post-installation the new tenant's electrician performed a pre-occupancy inspection and red-flagged said electrical work as a code violation. The property manager (my client) wants me to reimburse her for the cost of the project because she approved it based on my employees recommendation. When the EC was asked if he pulled a permit fir the job he responded "no, because there were too many red flags with the project". He basically admitted that he knowing implemented a project in violation of the NEC. Shouldn't he have brought this to our attention and recommended against it? Shouldn't he be on the hook for correcting it? Also, is there any liability on the EC for not pulling a permit?

Thanks again


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

Or is the permit the propert managers responsibility?


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Pay your lawyer for a consult. 
Maybe Lawyers Talk .com?

The free answer is not what you wanna hear.


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## west shore electric (Sep 30, 2015)

bobbarker said:


> The electrical contractor must fix all wiring even code violations free of charge.
> The electrical contractor must also clean the house and cook meals when he is hired.
> The electrical contractor must walk the dog
> The electrical contractor must rub the clients nasty feet when they are sore
> ...


This wins the best reply award!


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

smug, obnoxious and not appreciated.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Darto800 said:


> smug, obnoxious and not appreciated.


You didn't even say what city, state or country your from. 

As far as we know your from Kenya. Since all is fair there, your outa luck. 

Besides, read the sites terms of use. 
Your not an electrician and don't belong here.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

Youre asking a bunch of electricians if another one should take the fall for providing a service that was semi-engineered? No paperwork.. waste of time.. suck it up sounds like no one did their job.. so guess the main man in charge shoulders the responsibility.


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

you DIQS don't take kindly to my type round here?


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Darto800 said:


> you DIQS don't take kindly to my type round here?


It's not that, it's that this place is for us to unwind and relax with other electricians to shoot the sh** with. In the rules you signed to make an account it says you must be an electrician to join. You failed to read the rules that are plainly written then get upset when you get hazed.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

And even still your trolling other threads to get your violation answers. 

Your not going to understand or like any answers you receive here on ET.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I b t l


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## papaotis (Jun 8, 2013)

but for the hell of it, yes the EC should point out code violations, NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM! yes, he should get a permit, if required or arranged to be part of the total project,NOT. be liable for anything that isnt in the scope of his work,NO! be responsible for anything that wasnt in the scope of the contract,NO! erst my case there


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Switched said:


> With the code changing every 3 years.... There are going to be too many violations to list!.......


Your Code is retroactive? :blink:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

As an EC this reads loudly like '_no good deed goes unpunished_' 

The original spark probably walked into a hornets nest of red flags , which would have far outweighed the cost of his '_sanitation engineered'_ request.

IE~ He knew he's _loose the job _pulling a permit.....

~CS~


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Darto800 said:


> you DIQS don't take kindly to my type round here?


Rather i don't like existing as a tradesman under the microscope of the public, who have little understanding of what we do

~CS~


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

3D Electric said:


> It's not that, it's that this place is for us to unwind and relax with other electricians to shoot the sh** with. In the rules you signed to make an account it says you must be an electrician to join. You failed to read the rules that are plainly written then get upset when you get hazed.


Expected as you mustve not read or researched the project you signed off on.. 

Im going to guess and say you bring in ECs a bunch and show no loyalty so they provide your wishes to get the job done fast, cheap and to your requirements. If you had a good working relationship with one then they probably wouldve be able to tell you what you were looking at to make the code complaint. Even now if you had a meeting and discussed it youd get better results then simply pointing the finger. 

Its only rare occasions to ask forgiveness than to get permission. As stated before we like to unwind and shoot the breeze around here. Tell each other we are stupid and ask "whyd you do it that way?" but ultimately we are brothers (and a few sisters). So yea.. maybe facilitiesmanagerstalk.com would be a better place for you.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Darto800 said:


> Let me elaborate..
> 
> My employee, who is an on-site contracted _*stationary engineer*_ proposed a solution to an electrical issue.




Let me re-phrase.
I'm a cheap S.O.B ... I run down every contractor's price, and have stationary engineers do design work for $10 hr.

Given my situation ... can I get extra work done for free ???
Cause it would make my short arms sooo happy if I can get this project done properly for a fraction of what I paid, cuz I'm a slimeball :laughing:


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

He said '*stationary engineer*' ? _oops_.... wtf is that? something to do with Staples , or is he bolted down....:blink::001_huh:?

~CS~


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

chicken steve said:


> He said '*stationary engineer*' ? _oops_.... wtf is that? something to do with Staples , or is he bolted down....:blink::001_huh:?
> 
> ~CS~


Maybe the same guy who designed the envelopes for George's Wedding ...


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> He said '*stationary engineer*' ? _oops_.... wtf is that? something to do with Staples , or is he bolted down....:blink::001_huh:?
> 
> ~CS~


A guy who watches the boiler and gets $10.13 ph.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

_'You could throw a dart out a window, and hit a better engineer_'.....? :laughing:~CS~:laughing:


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> _'You could throw a dart out a window, and hit a better engineer_'.....? :laughing:~CS~:laughing:


Maybe he's the HO who lives in his moms basement duplex and he watches the hot water boiler.


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

Hilarious how smug and entitled you folks are. Thanks for the entertainment. I appreciate the couple of you that actually provided valuable feedback like Papaotis. 

FYI, my union Chief Engineer's make $60.77/hr with outstanding benefits including penchant and annuity. 

Be safe out there today and keep the entertainment coming.


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Sorry to hear he's so underpaid.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed. So before 480 gets here..... IBTL


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

~C:jester:S~


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Me too :thumbup:


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

Just want you to know there are some other lucrative trades out there. Something to consider before sending your boy to the 6-month electrician's course at Wyotech Institute so they can be just like Dad.


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

Darto800 said:


> Just want you to know there are some other lucrative trades out there. Something to consider before sending your boy to the 6-month electrician's course at Wyotech Institute so they can be just like Dad.


It was actually a 4 year course through the IEC. Consider that it takes a lot of commitment to do what we do and we have pride in that!


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

I got mine cause I smoked at the time, and the matches said I could be a reel erectrician :thumbup:


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## 3D Electric (Mar 24, 2013)

emtnut said:


> I got mine cause I smoked at the time, and the matches said I could be a reel erectrician :thumbup:


Those are some smart matches!


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Darto800 said:


> Just want you to know there are some other lucrative trades out there. Something to consider before sending your boy to the 6-month electrician's course at Wyotech Institute so they can be just like Dad.


Instead of trading insults (believe me, you haven't seen this crowd even get started) with us, maybe you should call the AHJ and ask them. 

Your EC should have gotten a permit. How much money are we talking about? How big is the job?

Did you verify the EC's credentials? Did you ask for a copy of the permit before he started to work? How about references? Did you get copies of proof of insurance before allowing the work to start? 

Whether you like it or not, you have some culpability here.

I'm curious, what do you think should happen? What do you think the EC should do now?

Hopefully you get to answer before the lock.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)




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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

emtnut said:


>


I hope the mods leave it open long enough to get some answers from the OP. 

I suggest leaving the thread open as a learning experience in the psychology of dealing with plant managers and the problems and pressures they have to deal with.


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## Darto800 (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks for the intelligent response hardworkingstiff. 

It's a relatively small project. ~$10K. In a nutshell a new 480V panel was installed in a multi-tenant commercial building to serve one tenant's rooftop HVAC equip. The panel is connected to the correct tenant's utility meter, the problem is the panel was mounted in another tenant's office suite to take advantage of existing abandoned conduit runs. The location of the panel is apparently in violation of 240.24(B) and the space will be inspected by the city before a new tenant moved in.

My guess it that the building management/ownership group will eat the cost of correcting the code violation and the EC will never be hired again because they did not advise the client that their were red flags with the project they designed.

I posted this topic simply because I'm inexperienced with this and curious how the process typical works. Specifically:

A). If an EC knowingly implements a project that is not code compliant can he/she risk losing their license or any other penalties?

B). Is it on the EC or the Property Mgr. to determine if an electrical project requires a permit? If a project requiring a permit is implemented without a permit and the AHJ is tipped off to it, will their be repercussions for the owner, the EC or both?

Not trying to throw the EC under the bus, just trying to learn. 

Thanks.


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

Darto800 said:


> A). If an EC knowingly implements a project that is not code compliant can he/she risk losing their license or any other penalties?


 In my area, they would probably not lose their license permanently, but depending on the severity of the infractions they may lose it temporarily. They would need to correct code violations that were part of their scope of work.


> B). Is it on the EC or the Property Mgr. to determine if an electrical project requires a permit?


 The EC.


> If a project requiring a permit is implemented without a permit and the AHJ is tipped off to it, will their be repercussions for the owner, the EC or both?


 Most likely just the EC


> Not trying to throw the EC under the bus, just trying to learn.
> 
> Thanks.


For the scope of work you described, IMO the bus needs to be warmed up and ready to roll. It's cut corners EC's that make it hard for the legitimate guys trying to play by the rules.

The EC would not be responsible for any code violations that preexisted.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Darto800 said:


> Thanks for the intelligent response hardworkingstiff.
> 
> It's a relatively small project. ~$10K. In a nutshell a new 480V panel was installed in a multi-tenant commercial building to serve one tenant's rooftop HVAC equip. The panel is connected to the correct tenant's utility meter, the problem is the panel was mounted in another tenant's office suite to take advantage of existing abandoned conduit runs. The location of the panel is apparently in violation of 240.24(B) and the space will be inspected by the city before a new tenant moved in.
> 
> ...


Honestly, this never would have happened. Never trust anyone that does not take out a permit. If he did something that he knew was not up to snuff you should stick it to him. If he bowed down to your costs that is his own fault.


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## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Darto800 said:


> Thanks for the intelligent response hardworkingstiff.
> 
> It's a relatively small project. ~$10K. In a nutshell a new 480V panel was installed in a multi-tenant commercial building to serve one tenant's rooftop HVAC equip. The panel is connected to the correct tenant's utility meter, the problem is the panel was mounted in another tenant's office suite to take advantage of existing abandoned conduit runs. The location of the panel is apparently in violation of 240.24(B) and the space will be inspected by the city before a new tenant moved in.
> 
> ...


There's always 3 sides to every story.

Was there pressure to do this job on the cheap ?
I take it, your stationary engineer was the one that proposed using the existing conduit ?
Maybe he suggested using the duct, or he'll find someone else who will ?
What is *your *past reputation? _Most_ landlords are known to be ... frugal:no:

Perhaps the EC confirmed that you have staff available 24/7 , therefore 240.24(B) may not even be an issue. He may have already confirmed this with the AHJ


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

Darto800 said:


> Just want you to know there are some other lucrative trades out there. Something to consider before sending your boy to the 6-month electrician's course at Wyotech Institute so they can be just like Dad.


Which one did you go to? I hope not the ones that went bankrupt. 
Did you send your boy/girl there?


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

Wirenuting said:


> You didn't even say what city, state or country your from.
> 
> As far as we know your from Kenya. Since all is fair there, your outa luck.
> 
> ...


San Francisco


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## Sparkchaser1 (May 17, 2015)

EC's job to pull a permit, period. If he did illegal work, it's his fault, not the stationary engineer's. The EC is supposed to be the pro, and do work accordingly. He's not liable for work he didn't do, but he sure as hell is for work he did do. If there were too many red flags, he should've walked (or ran) away. EC's the hack, in this case.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

The OP needs to understand that this forum is not intended to be a resource for project managers or plant managers to get answers to their problems. It's ment for electricians. So when you show up and start a thread about fixing the blame on one of us(even the lowest) we get a little defensive. You were treated fairly well, and you can tell, because the thread didn't get locked. I've seen folks skewered and smoking on an open pit when the mods aren't around. Don't feel special, we do it to each other constantly.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

chicken steve said:


> Rather i don't like existing as a tradesman under the microscope of the public, who have little understanding of what we do
> 
> ~CS~


exactly as many of the types we deal with refuse to understand the difference in requirements of specified conductors, the type of insulation required, the applications they are used in, or the results of what happens when things are installed wrong,

most think of just the voltage during a short circuit (not the potential current that occurs during the short)
if given the opportunity to view an arc flash they just see the light flash and do not comprehend the temperature the arc flash can reach.

all they see and think is hey i can do that $#!t easy and save a few bucks
or this piece of copper tube will work in the fuse holder and i don't have to buy fuses any more. (then cry the blues when the house burns down and their insurance wont pay for it)

this is one of the top reasons most professional electricians tend to very annoyed with
while we have no problems with apprentices new or old and they take their gibes as well as us old hats
we have a diy site and there are others as well
many of us actually do give advice on those sites
but this Forum is NOT a diy site and it is specifically stated in the rules and faq sections as well as registration.

while your question centered around liability for code violation, this is not a proper place for that 
you would be better off acquiring a copy of the newest code (local, state, and federal as well as any addendum's, and consulting with a lawyer
hence any good electrician who is up on his code will often make you aware of anything that is not up to current code and will advise on the corrective action needed to bring it up to standard
but cannot be held liable for something he hasn't touched

so rather than be condescending and abusive with us look up the information 
you can find it on line easy


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## Achilles (Sep 11, 2014)

My gut says - by choice - an electrician was hired cheaply to perform the work, knowing a permit would not be pulled.

There is a difference between Functional & Per Code

Now you are going to have to convince a judge that you company was negligent enough to hire a tradesmen w/o pulling a permit?

If the job was only about $10,000 - that's not even worth the hassle.

Stop trying to strong arm the EC to pay for a mistake your lack proper management allowed to happen. This is the risk of doing business under the table.

.... but then again you are likely savvy enough to know this


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## Signal1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Good afternoon Darto800,

My reply is pretty much word for word as hardworkingstiff's post (#40).

However as others have stated, we are not hearing the electrician's side of the story. 

The bottom line here is that it sounds like *you* hired a hack electrician with no permit, and the tenant's electrician caught you. 

Although it is most definitely the EC's duty to get the permit, he didn't which leaves you in a bit of a jam. He came in and installed your engineer's design and was probably hoping to get the check and run. (Which it sounds like he did).

If you were "Harry Homeowner" I would have some empathy for you as most people are not expected to understand, or have much experience with such things. Where you said you are a facilities manager, I feel you should have known better. Not all,but much of this mess is on your shoulders.

I think you may have figured out, the good guys are proud of their work, and will have the proper credentials, and references. It's your job to check them.


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## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm not sure I agree with anything that's been posted so far.

Reason being, the answers, to a large extent, are based on a complete lack of information.

For all we know, the site engineer was given all the information and made the decisions but didn't send them up the chain. For all we know, the electrician could have been told that the new tenant plans were to include the panels in a new house electrical closet. There are any number of scenarios that could have made the installation status quo for all concerned, and as others have pointed out, it is only because the landlord got caught that everyone's neck is now hanging out on the chopping block.

As a manager of this situation there is one clear issue that you seem to be unwilling to address, and that is the 7 P's. Prior Proper Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance. A site "engineer" is not a professional engineer, and while he might make a good on site manager, tasking him with redesign, for which he is not qualified nor for which he can be a signatory, is not a solution for tenant improvement redesign.

nuff said, quod erat demonstratum


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

chicken steve said:


> As an EC this reads loudly like '_no good deed goes unpunished_'
> 
> The original spark probably walked into a hornets nest of red flags , which would have far outweighed the cost of his '_sanitation engineered'_ request.
> 
> ...


 ...more than likely the case


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## 360max (Jun 10, 2011)

Darto800 said:


> Just want you to know there are some other lucrative trades out there. Something to consider before sending your boy to the 6-month electrician's course at Wyotech Institute so they can be just like Dad.


wow, and yet you come here seeking info . 

Something tells me you tried to shortcut it to same money, and the EC is your scapegoat, nice job.


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## Dark Knight (Jan 6, 2016)

Sounds like your priorities are saving money over workmanship and I for one credit your EC for recognizing how to make his client happy without endangering anyone's life or safety. I'm betting the rest of the installation was done properly. He knew a permit would mean you spending more money than you wanted and now you want to hang him out to dry. This is what happens when you do stuff on the cheap - it needs to be done twice. Next time tell him what you need and tell him to get it done, not how to do it.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

This thread is exactly why i'm big on permits, and don't get calls anymore from those who know i am


~CS~


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## Wirenuting (Sep 12, 2010)

chicken steve said:


> This thread is exactly why i'm big on permits, and don't get calls anymore from those who know i am
> 
> 
> ~CS~


Permits? Who needs Permits?
Only a chicken hides behind a permit!


Ah, wait a second...... Sorry Steve.


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