# 3-way switch puzzler.



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Got a unique situation. This is not a theory question, it's a real-life scenario........ so please read carefully.

Two 2-gang boxes, one each at the top and bottom of stairway. Two 3-ways in each box.

One switch at each level controls light at bottom of stairs, other 2 switchs control light at top of stairs.

Homeowner states they have worked in the past, but now a breaker trips when switches are in a given position. No recent work on the switches (which appear original to very old house) is apparent.


So far so good, right? Now for the fun part:

There are only four wires entering each box (old cloth romex). They are both wired the same:










Now to make it _really_ fun, here's some unknowns: 
1. Which terminal on the switches is the common.
2. Which wire is hot, which are 'travelers', and which are switch legs. Heck, there may be a neutral in here!
3. This could be a California / Carter 3-way. Never assume it's originally wired to Code!
4. It could be switching the neutral(s).
5. To throw a wrench into the gears, there _may_ be two circuits involved.
6. There _may_ be other boxes with make-up, either in the ceiling lights, or even buried elsewhere.

Given this, can you find a solution to make it work as described above? Not necesserily to Code, but to make it work?






I post this not because I have the answer, because I don't. This comes from a fellow forum member who called me about it since this is a situation he's come across in a house.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

How about troubleshooting it with some three-ways that have identifiable common terminals for a start?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*3 way*

If the house is that old, the return and the neutral may be touching in the light outlet box from being twisted so many times over the years. I'll bet you guys have already checked that.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> How about troubleshooting it with some three-ways that have identifiable common terminals for a start?


Apparently, the original 3-ways don't have an identified common terminal.

I suggested taking the switches out and putting an ohmmeter to them to determine which terminal is the common, but I'd like to see if, given the conditions in the OP, it's even possible to make the two lights function properly.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*three way*



480sparky said:


> Apparently, the original 3-ways don't have an identified common terminal.
> 
> I suggested taking the switches out and putting an ohmmeter to them to determine which terminal is the common, but I'd like to see if, given the conditions in the OP, it's even possible to make the two lights function properly.


Years ago, in my own house I was installing an attic opening, pull down stair.I cut four or five romex cables and labeled each wire for future re-hookup. The labels fell off and I ended up pulling both 3-ways and a 4-way out and just ringing every wire out and gave it a number. Then it was easy to figure out...three years later.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Apparently, the original 3-ways don't have an identified common terminal.
> 
> I suggested taking the switches out and putting an ohmmeter to them to determine which terminal is the common, but I'd like to see if, given the conditions in the OP, it's even possible to make the two lights function properly.


May need to see what's going on in those three light fixture boxes.
:blink:


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

has he determined where the power originates?

I assume it is at a light fixture... on one of the two levels...

I also *suspect* that the "short" is happening at one of these fixture boxes...
and all the thinking about these 3-ways is a interesting but a waste of time.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> May need to see what's going on in those three light fixture boxes.
> :blink:


 
There's only two.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

*3-way*

In the older homes I'd disconnect the wires, then drag a single wire to a bath or sink. You can find out which is the hot wire.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

480sparky said:


> There's only two.


I thought there were at least four.
(2 each at upper level and 2 each at lower level)

not that it is the real problem with the shorting...
but one of those 3 ways in each box is there for some other reason.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> I thought there were at least four.
> (2 each at upper level and 2 each at lower level)
> 
> not that it is the real problem with the shorting...
> but one of those 3 ways in each box is there for some other reason.


 
Two lights, four 3-ways.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 6, 2009)

480sparky said:


> Two lights, four 3-ways.


Yeah, I read it wrong.
In any case, what's happening in those light boxes has something to do with what's going on here. Power is prolly going to those boxes although I'm not exactly sure how that would work with your diagram.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

Rudeboy said:


> In any case, *what's happening in those light boxes has something to do with what's going on here*.


As I also pointed out.
The 3-way's "mystery" is a red herring.

What Ken tell us:


480 said:


> There are only four wires entering each box (old cloth romex). They are both wired the same


 may be close but I suspect is incomplete information.

As there is a doubling up on traveler terminals shown... there is (must be?) a doubling on point terminals at the other pair (NOT shown); and another pair of wires from/to the light fixture(s) too. Gotta be.

Interesting head scratcher... but not where the problem is and really of no 
interest (to me) until those fixture boxes are opened up and we (I) know what else is going on.. and we get the loose wirenut replaced/tightened down.


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

disconnect one three way at a time and re set the breaker till i know what wires are involved in the problem,,,then trace that wire from the switch to the point where that damn varment chewed it up and fix it....:thumbsup:


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

the other sollution is that, if i dont know enough about all the possible reasons it isnt working , if the problem isnt in the light then im suggesting new wire, even if that means for all the three ways to the light and back to the panel,,,then ill know its right.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*crazy*

I had one sorta like that last week. The old timers ran the hot/neutral to the lights first back then and passed the feedbacks and travelers down to the other set of 3 ways somehow (putting travelers/switch legs/hots) in one box. They tied the travelers up in the light box so only 2 romex went to each 2gang 3 way jbox. My dad used to do that to me to mess me up all the time on new construction, so I'm used to non normal 3 way runs. The old timers were frugal and any way to save wire they would figure out. 

As it turns out one of the switches crumbled apart. I'd just label it first, take it all apart then start ringing things out. Check switches first, lights second, then start looking around. 

Don't let us hang too long for the ending.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

BryanMD said:


> As I also pointed out.
> The 3-way's "mystery" is a red herring.
> 
> What Ken tell us: may be close but I suspect is incomplete information.
> ................


Please understand that what I am posting is second-hand information, but my 'source' tells me the drawing is 100% correct.

Also, he did call me and tell me *the solution has been found!* It is an 'illegal' 3-way set-up.... as I had suspected. He found it in David Shapiro's _Your Old Wiring._ It even describes the jumpers between the switches.

But I'd still like to see a drawing of a wiring diagram to see how it works.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*solution*

Thanks for making me strain my brain this morning! 

I've been screwing with this on paper for 1 hr now. The thing that's messing me up is the jumpers from 1-3way to the other. I've been trying it with switching the hots and switching the neutrals. I keep coming up into a dead end. you got a link for that book???


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> ......... you got a link for that book???


 
Yepper!


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*yep*

not sure why I asked you. found 10 sec after 

Not sure if I can wait for the book to show up. got for $18

Do you have the schematic of the answer??


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> ............Do you have the schematic of the answer??


 
I wish I did. He tried to explain it over the phone, but we were both tired last night and I just couldn't visualize what he was trying to describe. I asked him to scan it and email it to me, but he said he didn't know how to do that.


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*ok*

well. was he switching the hots or neutrals? 

did the 3 ways all work correctly from any positions? 

what were the jumpers doing from one to the other?

Do you know which terminal was the common?

Sorry, but this will bug me til I know the answer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> well. was he switching the hots or neutrals?
> 
> did the 3 ways all work correctly from any positions?
> 
> ...


 
Apparently they were switching the neutral as well as the hot. Still unknown as to which terminals are the commons, but he's going back there today to ohm them out as they aren't marked.

Allegedly, the system worked as designed.... a switch at each level controlled a light. At either the top or bottom, you could control both lights.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

damn they came up with some funky stuff back then


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## Mike Guile (Jan 14, 2010)

*this*

could this be it modified? Old thread


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Mike Guile said:


> could this be it modified? Old thread


How's this?


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## Chryse (Jan 22, 2010)

If it were me, and I am saying this humbly. 
Step 1. I would number one take off each of the three way switches themselves. Then ohm test the switches one at a time. throw the switch in both directions. this will tell you which is common because only one terminal will be hot all the time if you throw the switch and the buzzing sound does not come on at all you know then that the common one would have to include the terminal which is not being used at the time.

Step 2. as this is old wire, you may have a short to ground, so anywhere in the wire itself, so it may be a little safer to just run new wires to the fixtures, then you would now how it is hooked up. Remember, you may fix it once, and be called again tomorrow because the same situation happens only this time it is deep inside the wall, and you would then have to replace the wire yourself for free.


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## BryanMD (Dec 31, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Please understand that what I am posting is second-hand information, but my 'source' tells me the drawing is 100% correct.


Didn't mean to imply you were just f'in with us  
My suspicions were (are) about the other (not shown) 2G box and it's wires.



> It is an 'illegal' 3-way set-up....


I thought that had been established at the outset.



> Also, he did call me and tell me *the solution has been found!*
> But I'd still like to see a drawing of a wiring diagram to see how it works.


Solution as in what the wiring fault that caused the breaker to trip was?
Or solution as regards (the still unimportant issue of) which variety of illegal 3way? 

Oh yeah.. and what WAS the problem?


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

480sparky said:


> Please understand that what I am posting is second-hand information, but my 'source' tells me the drawing is 100% correct.
> 
> Also, he did call me and tell me *the solution has been found!* It is an 'illegal' 3-way set-up.... as I had suspected. He found it in David Shapiro's _Your Old Wiring._ It even describes the jumpers between the switches.
> 
> But I'd still like to see a drawing of a wiring diagram to see how it works.


OK Guys, I'm the one who called Ken, he has been my mentor for about three years now and thanks to him I have learn much. As alway Ken thanks again, I really glad to be your student!

I found the problem and will post it next post but I wanted to use this post to thank Ken.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

First the diagram Ken posted is totally correct. That is and currently how the switches are wired.

Instead of jumping the common terminals the travelers are jumped in exactly the manner posted. There are only four wires in each box, two switches. The common terminal is the single terminal on each side of the switch. The travelers are the two terminals that are cross wired. They must by cross wired to work right! I removed all switches and they all tested good. Put them back exactly how I removed them. Ran current measurement and found that in one configuration the lights were receiving 240 volts. Hence the reason for damaged bulbs and breakers tripping. That was when my bulb lit up! Why was there two breakers for the switches? Called the landlord and asked a very important question. Was this loadcenter replaced recently? Answer, yes! Went down to the loadcenter removed one black wire from one of the two source breakers and install it on the other source breaker, problem solved!!!! Switches and lights worked well now!

What happened was that the electrician that replaced the loadcenter saw two blacks on one breaker thought it was a double tap and thought he corrected the double tap by installing one black wire alone on each breaker. He did not know that it was a two wire switching method used to control house lights. Apparently on this switching method two black wires need to be terminated on the source breaker. Innocent mistake.

BTW: David E. Shapiro book, "Old Electrical Wiring" is a very good book and that was were I first started to understand this switching method. I would recommend it to anyone who is going to troubleshoot old wiring.


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## Roger123 (Sep 23, 2007)

BTW Part Two:

The one line diagram for this switching method is posted on page 60 of Shapiro's Book.

Hope someone can copy it and post it on this tread.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

Mike Guile said:


> The old timers were frugal and any way to save wire they would figure out.
> 
> quote]
> I run into this cr*p all the time; I work in allot of older homes, built in the 40's and those old sparkys were way cheap with wire.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> In the older homes I'd disconnect the wires, then drag a single wire to a bath or sink. You can find out which is the hot wire.


 what do you mean by this?


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> what do you mean by this?


A very long time ago in a old house I could not find which wire was the hot, for sure. So I ran a wire from the bathroom to the upstairs bedroom thru the hall and stairway. I twisted the wire around the copper pipe at the toilet and checked between that wire and all the rest and found which one was the hot. It was kind of neanderthal, and I was young, and not nearly as SMART as I am now.


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

so easy a caveman can do it!


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> so easy a caveman can do it!


Have you looked for the hot conductor in that way?


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## BuzzKill (Oct 27, 2008)

RIVETER said:


> Have you looked for the hot conductor in that way?


 Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiil no.
I might as well stick a fork in a socket.


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## RIVETER (Sep 26, 2009)

BuzzKill said:


> Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiil no.
> I might as well stick a fork in a socket.


Good for you. It doesn't hurt to try something new.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> Got a unique situation. This is not a theory question, it's a real-life scenario........ so please read carefully.
> 
> Two 2-gang boxes, one each at the top and bottom of stairway. Two 3-ways in each box.
> 
> ...


 I'll bet it is a hot /neuteral travelers hook up(old,old days or a hacks way of stealing power from a 3way switch) That is one that would play a good challenge .


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## zen (Jun 15, 2009)

dang it i finally thought i was gonna have the answer.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

zen said:


> dang it i finally thought i was gonna have the answer.


 
Dang you must have missed posts 17 and 30.


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## petek57 (Mar 3, 2009)

Very cool. How did you post a drawing where the switch actually toggles before your eyes? I had to adjust my bifocals to make sure of what I saw!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

petek57 said:


> Very cool. How did you post a drawing where the switch actually toggles before your eyes? I had to adjust my bifocals to make sure of what I saw!


 
You mean this?













It's an animated .gif file.


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## petek57 (Mar 3, 2009)

Did you draw it and animate it?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

petek57 said:


> Did you draw it and animate it?


Yes.


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## frenchelectrican (Mar 15, 2007)

Merde! 

That bring me back the memory what the old tube et knobs were set up like that and as I was reading along the way it allready click in my mind I knew it was double T et K three way set up.

The quickest give away key item is crossed three way shuttles { travelers } that why due one T et K circuit will be on CR #1 { like main floor } while second T et K will be on CR #2 as soon you get the connection hook up just right you will get 240 volts at the luminaire you will blow the 120 volt bulbs out that why I put in 240 volt bulb to test it if bright I know it allready crossed if stay dim then it set up correct.

One of the day I have to make a diagram how this old merde T et K set up with 2 three ways set up like that.

Merci,Marc

P.S. it the same thing with very old French home and apartment complex done the same thing


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