# Ufer Ground Inspections



## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Sencoman said:


> I called the inspector and the only thing I could think of was to offer to drive two ground rods instead. *Inspector said the code no longer recognizes ground rods *and I had to attach to the rebar.


If he really thinks the code no longer recognizes ground rods he is a fool. 

The thing is, if rebar exists it MUST be used as an electrode. The old wording was if it was "available". If you do use the rebar then no other electrodes are needed or required.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The official word here in MA is an electrcal inpection must be performed before the cement is poured and I see that happening in our commercial jobs. I have heard this is getting ignored in homes.


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## Pete m. (Nov 19, 2011)

Until the contractors in this area got used to using the ufer they would get a one time pass. 

It's been enforced long enough now that I haven't had someone "miss it" in a long while.

Pete


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Surprised the concrete contractors didn't know about it if it's a state code. It's been around long enough here most of them are familiar with it. Usually they connect a 2' piece to the 20 foot piece so there's 20 feet in the concrete. One inspector insists that it must be a "listed" clamp to tie the two together. Code and state inspector say no but he knows more I guess. Where you gonna find a clamp "listed" to connect two rebar together in concrete?? It's usually the concrete contractors responsibility to make sure it's installed but it works best to work with them on it as to the location etc. Saves having to drive ground rods!!


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

I rarely see them in noncommercial jobs. Most of our slabs in residential are surrounded in insulation. So they are not in contact with the earth.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

I believe the concrete guys have been out of work (no houses/footers anyway.)

This is the first full on house the GC has done.

The County has all electrical inspections done by Middle Department Inspection Agency (MDIA) and I would have thought they would be all over an "extra" inspection when the footers are rebarred because it would just be more money for them.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

backstay said:


> I rarely see them in noncommercial jobs. Most of our slabs in residential are surrounded in insulation. So they are not in contact with the earth.


 
Has to be in the footer not the slab for that very reason.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

wendon said:


> Surprised the concrete contractors didn't know about it if it's a state code. It's been around long enough here most of them are familiar with it.
> 
> One inspector insists that it must be a "listed" clamp to tie the two together. Where you gonna find a clamp "listed" to connect two rebar together in concrete??


 
That's what the inspector said "everyone knows about it, I'm sure it's there you just have to find it." Sure.

The only listing my inspector cared about was direct burial, could that be what your guy meant?


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## running dummy (Mar 19, 2009)

The concrete guys bend one piece out of the footing and we bond it when we do the service later. 

I don't believe any pre concrete inspection has ever been performed for our houses.


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## jimmy21 (Mar 31, 2012)

The inspector that inspected the forms signs off here. Our electrical inspector said that on new construction that if you didn't ground the rebar, he would make you pour a new 20' footing to ground to


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

Sencoman said:


> That's what the inspector said "everyone knows about it, I'm sure it's there you just have to find it." Sure.
> 
> The only listing my inspector cared about was direct burial, could that be what your guy meant?


They have clamps listed for connecting ground wire to the rebar but I don't know of a clamp that's actually "listed" for connecting 2 rebar together. The main issue is that 250.52 (A) (3) (1) states:
One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13mm (½) inch in diameter, installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft.) length, or if in multiple pieces *connected together by the usual steel tie wires*, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

jimmy21 said:


> The inspector that inspected the forms signs off here. Our electrical inspector said that on new construction that if you didn't ground the rebar, he would make you pour a new 20' footing to ground to


 

That would suck, I hope the GC would be responsible for that?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Sencoman said:


> Has to be in the footer not the slab for that very reason.


Monolithic slabs, no separate footing. Nothing in contact with the earth.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

In the jurisdiction I work I work for the concrete companies do not provide any type of re-bar stub up unless the GC or EC asks for it and makes sure its there.
The Concrete Encased Electrode is completely the EC's responsibility. Most jobs here the EC puts in 20 + feet of #4 copper.

The Concrete Encased Electrode must be inspected for me to accept it. If it's installed and covered prior to inspection then its no good unless the PE certifying the re-bar in the footer has listed it on his certification. Then I need copy of his report with an original signature and his seal , no photostat copies allowed.

No Inspection or Certification, or just plain didn't put it in , Then the EC needs to dig down next to the footer and chip into it and connect to the re-bar. That OR dig another footer and install one next to the original footer.
This must be done before releasing the service to the POCO


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> In the jurisdiction I work I work for the concrete companies do not provide any type of re-bar stub up unless the GC or EC asks for it and makes sure its there.
> The Concrete Encased Electrode is completely the EC's responsibility. Most jobs here the EC puts in 20 + feet of #4 copper.
> 
> The Concrete Encased Electrode must be inspected for me to accept it. If it's installed and covered prior to inspection then its no good unless the PE certifying the re-bar in the footer has listed it on his certification. Then I need copy of his report with an original signature and his seal , no photostat copies allowed.
> ...


Much too complicated!!!:laughing: I'd have to say I'm glad I don't work in your area. Much easier to just tell the concrete contractor where you want it stubbed up and let him do it when he lays the rebar for the footer. I can't imagine making a special trip out to the job just to install a 20' piece of rebar or wire. I've never seen #4 wire installed for the Ufer even though it's allowed. Isn't there an issue with a chemical reaction with the concrete and copper?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)




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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

The rebar stubbed out of the concrete is not a grounding electrode and it is not of a material permitted to be used as a grounding electrode conductor. What code section permits the GEC to be connected to the rebar stub?

In our area the concrete encased electrode is inspected by the building inspector and the concrete contractor is required to stub out a copper conductor that the electrical contractor can connect to.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

mcclary's electrical said:


> View attachment 20521


 

Commercial? Why so many GECs? Tell us about it.


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## Sencoman (Nov 27, 2011)

What always fascinates me is that even though it is the "National" Electric Code, it always comes down to local interpretation.


Barring differences in soil conditions of dry sand vs. red clay, etc., why isn't there a "National" standard?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Sencoman said:


> .......I was wondering what they did in your neck of the woods in regards to ufers and inspections?


Here, the ufer ground is part of the footings inspection.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

wendon said:


> Much too complicated!!!:laughing: I'd have to say I'm glad I don't work in your area. Much easier to just tell the concrete contractor where you want it stubbed up and let him do it when he lays the rebar for the footer. I can't imagine making a special trip out to the job just to install a 20' piece of rebar or wire. I've never seen #4 wire installed for the Ufer even though it's allowed. Isn't there an issue with a chemical reaction with the concrete and copper?


Whats so complicated about it ? Simply make sure you install it and get it inspected. Only gets complicated when the EC does not do what is required of him by the National Electrical Code.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

manchestersparky said:


> Whats so complicated about it ? Simply make sure you install it and get it inspected. Only gets complicated when the EC does not do what is required of him by the National Electrical Code.


 
No, it gets complicated when the EC is hired after the pour (which is 99% of the time) like the op in this case, who pays for all this crap?

You should make it part of the footer inspections, instead of trying to bust balls for it.


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## Jim Port (Oct 1, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The rebar stubbed out of the concrete is not a grounding electrode and it is not of a material permitted to be used as a grounding electrode conductor. What code section permits the GEC to be connected to the rebar stub?
> 
> In our area the concrete encased electrode is inspected by the building inspector and the concrete contractor is required to stub out a copper conductor that the electrical contractor can connect to.


Are you saying the connection from the GEC to the rebar needs to be in the concrete? Seems like splitting hairs if the rebar is the electrode, but once outside the footer it is not.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> In the jurisdiction I work I work for the concrete companies do not provide any type of re-bar stub up unless the GC or EC asks for it and makes sure its there.
> The Concrete Encased Electrode is completely the EC's responsibility. Most jobs here the EC puts in 20 + feet of #4 copper.
> 
> The Concrete Encased Electrode must be inspected for me to accept it. If it's installed and covered prior to inspection then its no good unless the PE certifying the re-bar in the footer has listed it on his certification. Then I need copy of his report with an original signature and his seal , no photostat copies allowed.
> ...


Thank god you are not an inspector around here.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Around here our building inspect looks at it.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

Skip to the second to last paragraph for the short version.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> the rebar stubbed out of the concrete is not a grounding electrode and it is not of a material permitted to be used as a grounding electrode conductor. What code section permits the gec to be connected to the rebar stub?
> 
> In our area the concrete encased electrode is inspected by the building inspector and the concrete contractor is required to stub out a copper conductor that the electrical contractor can connect to.


250.52


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

Jim Port said:


> Are you saying the connection from the GEC to the rebar needs to be in the concrete? Seems like splitting hairs if the rebar is the electrode, but once outside the footer it is not.


That is exactly what I am saying.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

wendon said:


> 250.52


Can you be more specific. There is nothing in that section that I am aware of that would be in conflict with my comments.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No, it gets complicated when the EC is hired after the pour (which is 99% of the time) like the op in this case, who pays for all this crap?
> 
> You should make it part of the footer inspections, instead of trying to bust balls for it.


For Commercial projects ( which is what I deal with)Around here the EC is hired long before the footers are poured- well lets say 99% of the time. We do it the right way in these parts. The contractor , both the EC's and the GC's know about Concrete Encased Electrodes and 99% of the time it iss not an issue. Its the 1% of the time that its gets interesting. 

The residential contractors know the Concrete encased electrode is required and they make sure it is installed and inspected or certified by the PE when they certify the footers. Residential footers get certified by the PE instead of getting inspections as this makes it easier and faster for the residential guys.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That is exactly what I am saying.


Could you provide a Code reference that requires that?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

manchestersparky said:


> We do it the right way in these parts.


That right there is funny!:laughing::laughing::laughing::lol::stuart:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Can you be more specific. There is nothing in that section that I am aware of that would be in conflict with my comments.


250.51 

(A) *Electrodes Permitted for Grounding*

(3) *Concrete-Encased Electrode*

A concrete-encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20ft) of either (1) or (2)

(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 1/2" diameter, installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length. etc etc etc.

What's your question?


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> That is exactly what I am saying.


So are you saying that if a ground rod is sticking up above ground level, and the connection to the ground rod is above ground, isn't a ground rod? Could you give a code reference stating that we can't connect to the rebar outside of the concrete? Our state electrical inspector recommends doing it this way.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

wendon said:


> So are you saying that if a ground rod is sticking up above ground level, and the connection to the ground rod is above ground, isn't a ground rod? Could you give a code reference stating that we can't connect to the rebar outside of the concrete? Our state electrical inspector recommends doing it this way.


As far as the ground rod, as long at there is at least 8' of the rod in contact with the earth, it is a grounding electrode. If you use an 8' rod and it sticks up above the ground, it is not an grounding electrode.

The connection has to be to the electrode, a concrete encased electrode has to be, by definition, encased in concrete. If you stub out the rebar, that part of the rebar is not encased in concrete and is not a grounding electrode. When you connect the grounding electrode conductor to that stub of rebar you are using that part of the rebar as a grounding electrode conductor. Steel rebar is not one of the items that the code permits you to use as a grounding electrode conductor.

Yes, I am well aware that this is an accepted practice per many inspection authorities, but it is my opinion that code does not actually permit that installation.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> As far as the ground rod, as long at there is at least 8' of the rod in contact with the earth, it is a grounding electrode. If you use an 8' rod and it sticks up above the ground, it is not an grounding electrode.
> 
> The connection has to be to the electrode, a concrete encased electrode has to be, by definition, encased in concrete. If you stub out the rebar, that part of the rebar is not encased in concrete and is not a grounding electrode. When you connect the grounding electrode conductor to that stub of rebar you are using that part of the rebar as a grounding electrode conductor. Steel rebar is not one of the items that the code permits you to use as a grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> Yes, I am well aware that this is an accepted practice per many inspection authorities, but it is my opinion that code does not actually permit that installation.


Worthless without a code reference.
You're not making sense. Another electrode that is permitted is a metal underground water pipe. Are you saying that you have to install the clamp underground!!:no::no:


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> As far as the ground rod, as long at there is at least 8' of the rod in contact with the earth, it is a grounding electrode. If you use an 8' rod and it sticks up above the ground, it is not an grounding electrode.
> 
> The connection has to be to the electrode, a concrete encased electrode has to be, by definition, encased in concrete. If you stub out the rebar, that part of the rebar is not encased in concrete and is not a grounding electrode. When you connect the grounding electrode conductor to that stub of rebar you are using that part of the rebar as a grounding electrode conductor. Steel rebar is not one of the items that the code permits you to use as a grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> Yes, I am well aware that this is an accepted practice per many inspection authorities, but it is my opinion that code does not actually permit that installation.


Lucky that is only *your* opinion because it is totally wrong.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> As far as the ground rod, as long at there is at least 8' of the rod in contact with the earth, it is a grounding electrode. If you use an 8' rod and it sticks up above the ground, it is not an grounding electrode.
> 
> The connection has to be to the electrode, a concrete encased electrode has to be, by definition, encased in concrete. If you stub out the rebar, that part of the rebar is not encased in concrete and is not a grounding electrode. When you connect the grounding electrode conductor to that stub of rebar you are using that part of the rebar as a grounding electrode conductor. Steel rebar is not one of the items that the code permits you to use as a grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> Yes, I am well aware that this is an accepted practice per many inspection authorities, but it is my opinion that code does not actually permit that installation.


 

I realize we split hairs around here about wording but this is crazy talk. It doesn't say the entire 20' has to be encased in concrete, it just says 20' in the concrete. The same exact thing as using a 10' ground rod, driving 8' in the ground, and put your clamp on the end. Are you trying to say the remaining 2' is not a ground rod? but a GEC?? WOW!:blink:


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> As far as the ground rod, as long at there is at least 8' of the rod in contact with the earth, it is a grounding electrode. If you use an 8' rod and it sticks up above the ground, it is not an grounding electrode.
> 
> The connection has to be to the electrode, a concrete encased electrode has to be, by definition, encased in concrete. If you stub out the rebar, that part of the rebar is not encased in concrete and is not a grounding electrode. When you connect the grounding electrode conductor to that stub of rebar you are using that part of the rebar as a grounding electrode conductor. Steel rebar is not one of the items that the code permits you to use as a grounding electrode conductor.
> 
> Yes, I am well aware that this is an accepted practice per many inspection authorities, but it is my opinion that code does not actually permit that installation.


Your argument boils down to:
- Connect copper to steel in the concrete: good
- Connect copper to steel in the air: bad

It's the same steel and copper. Unless there is something magic about
concrete, you are arguing against Chemistry and Physics.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

So I take a 22 foot piece of rebar, install 21 foot of it inside the concrete. The other 12 inches is outside the concrete. I still have my UFER ground.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> So I take a 22 foot piece of rebar, install 21 foot of it inside the concrete. The other 12 inches is outside the concrete. I still have my UFER ground.


 
That's exactly how I read it.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

Sencoman said:


> Has to be in the footer not the slab for that very reason.


It does NOT have to be in the footer. NEC2008/250.52(3) (my *'s)



> Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50mm
> of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within
> that portion of a concrete *foundation* or footing that is in direct contact
> with the earth.


E.g. here post-tension slabs with no footings are becoming more common.
I have measured the earth resistance (with a 3-point tester for this purpose),
and have measured single digit ohms with a post-tension slab, i.e. no footer.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

rexowner said:


> Your argument boils down to:
> - Connect copper to steel in the concrete: good
> - Connect copper to steel in the air: bad
> 
> ...


 
And some inspectors want that connection accessible. It's not down in the concrete.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So I take a 22 foot piece of rebar, install 21 foot of it inside the concrete. The other 12 inches is outside the concrete. I still have my UFER ground.


That's right on. And if you don't have a 22 foot piece of rebar you can tie on whatever length you want. Maybe go with 10 5/16" inches out of the concrete though!!:laughing::laughing:


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

rexowner said:


> It does NOT have to be in the footer. NEC2008/250.52(3) (my *'s)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But if you read the informational note, if you have a vapor barrier or insulation installed between your slab and the earth, it is not considered to be in contact with the earth. 
Would you then be required to use ground rods?


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

rexowner said:


> It does NOT have to be in the footer. NEC2008/250.52(3) (my *'s)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And, BTW, the reason I was measuring was that almost the entire slab had
a plastic barrier underneath, only the outside foot or so were concrete-earth.
I told the GC that I thought it would be a lousy ground, so I measured it,
and I was wrong -- it was a good ground.

Someone on this forum educated me that most of the resistance came
from the surface area around the electrode (e.g. think of it as "rings" of
concrete resistance), not from the concrete-earth contact. I forget
the exact reference, but I think Fluke or AEMC has a good paper on this.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

wendon said:


> But if you read the informational note, if you have a vapor barrier or insulation installed between your slab and the earth, it is not considered to be in contact with the earth.
> Would you then be required to use ground rods?


I had not seen your post, when posting #47. It surprised the heck out of
me. The slabs I am talking about had outer edges in contact with the earth,
and also some hold-downs a couple of feet below grade that were in
direct contact with the earth.

I don't know construction practices in your area, but I would imagine
that they have to go below frost-line, and the vapor barrier doesn't
act like a "bag" around the entire foundation.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

rexowner said:


> I had not seen your post, when posting #47. It surprised the heck out of
> me. The slabs I am talking about had outer edges in contact with the earth,
> and also some hold-downs a couple of feet below grade that were in
> direct contact with the earth.
> ...


My boy works for a concrete contractor and the "floating slabs" that I've seen around here have what that call a Haunch ?? footing. Usually they put foam under as much of it as they can but I think the bottom of the "Haunch" which is basically a trench dug approx. 8" deep around the outside edge, is usually in contact with the earth. If the job is inspected, some inspectors will even make you tape the seams on the 4x8 sheets of foam. I've never done a Ufer on them that I can recall.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

wendon said:


> Worthless without a code reference.
> You're not making sense. Another electrode that is permitted is a metal underground water pipe. Are you saying that you have to install the clamp underground!!:no::no:


The code directly permits a connection to the metal underground water pipe within 5' of where the pipe enters the building.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

480sparky said:


> So I take a 22 foot piece of rebar, install 21 foot of it inside the concrete. The other 12 inches is outside the concrete. I still have my UFER ground.


Yes, you have a concrete encased electrode, but you have no code complaint method of connecting a grounding electrode conductor to it.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Lucky that is only *your* opinion because it is totally wrong.


Opinions can never be wrong. 
It is how the rule is enforced in my area.


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## wingz (Mar 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Yes, you have a concrete encased electrode, but you have no code complaint method of connecting a grounding electrode conductor to it.


I agree.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

wingz said:


> I agree.












The UL®-listed product can be used with *rebar*, water pipes and ground rods.


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## rexowner (Apr 12, 2008)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Yes, you have a concrete encased electrode, but you have no code complaint method of connecting a grounding electrode conductor to it.


I do not completely agree with your opinion, but to your point, I have seen
a Ufer stubbed outside to the side of the house, and the ground clamp
attached outside in the wet area. The iron/steel was clearly going
to oxidize/rust, and the clamp would come loose when exposed to
weather over time. I came in after the fact when this has *passed*
inspection - IMO, should have failed, and if I were the inspector I would
be happy to cite your rationale.

Obviously, normal practices is for a clamp above the concrete to be
in some accessible space that is protected from the weather. However,
nowhere in the Code that I know about is there any differentiation
between this normal practice and the hack installation in the first paragraph.

So, I started off thinking your argument was just parsing words, but
thanks for raising the point.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Yes, you have a concrete encased electrode, but you have no code complaint method of connecting a grounding electrode conductor to it.


 

There is absolutely NOTHING That requires the connection to be in the concrete. NOTHING. It's required that the rebar be in the concrete, but not the connection.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

wendon said:


> The UL®-listed product can be used with *rebar*, water pipes and ground rods.


Yes, that clamp is suitable for use when connecting the GEC to the CEE. The issue is that the rebar stub is neither a GEC nor a CEE.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> There is absolutely NOTHING That requires the connection to be in the concrete. NOTHING. It's required that the rebar be in the concrete, but not the connection.


The rule requires the connection to be made to the CEE. The rebar that is stubbed out of the concrete is not a CEE. It is just some random piece of metal that is not permitted to be used as a GEC.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

rexowner said:


> I do not completely agree with your opinion, but to your point, I have seen
> a Ufer stubbed outside to the side of the house, and the ground clamp
> attached outside in the wet area. The iron/steel was clearly going
> to oxidize/rust, and the clamp would come loose when exposed to
> ...


The footing inspector should not have permitted the rebar to be stubbed out underground. The structural codes do not permit that for the very reason you cited...corrosion of the rebar.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The rule requires the connection to be made to the CEE. The rebar that is stubbed out of the concrete is not a CEE. It is just some random piece of metal that is not permitted to be used as a GEC.


Do you realize how crazy this sounds? Is the last two feet of a ground rid still a ground rod? There is nowhere in the code that says a ground rod cannot be outside of the ground just like there is nothing that says a CEE cannot come out of the concrete. Is the 5 ft we're allowed on water pipes considered a water pipe? Once an underground waterpipe used as an electrode leaves the underground it is no longer an electrode??? This is one instance of you taking the wording too far. If they wanted to, they could have very easily added wording that says the CEE shall not leave the concrete, but they didn't, because that is not the intent of the article.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

The NEC specifically tells us the cee ends 2" from the surface of the concrete.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Do you realize how crazy this sounds?........


Do you realize how many 'crazy' things are still in the NEC?

If you want crazy, try this:

Customer has a 50a range circuit. They're getting a new gas stove, so you need to install a 15a 5-15R recep for the controls and igniter.
So you pull the 2-p 50a breaker out, install a 1-p 15 and a blank, abandon one of the hots. . At the stove, you take out the 50a recep, cap off one hot and pigtail the other #6 hot, neutral and #10 ground, install a 5-15 and use a 2-g blank/recep cover.

Did you know you just created a violation?


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The NEC specifically tells us the cee ends 2" from the surface of the concrete.


 
I don't see it. If there was a definition of CEE that said the entire portion must be in concrete, then I would agree. But instead we have this:


*Grounding Electrode Conductor.​*​​​​A conductor used to
connect the system grounded conductor or the equipment to
a grounding electrode or to a point on the grounding electrode​
system.
 

The rebar most certainly is a point on the grounding electrode system. And then there's this:

*Grounding Electrode.​*​​​​A conducting object through which​
a direct connection to earth is established.
 

The rebar in between our wire and the rebar in the bottom most certainly fits here.


Once again, we can't just use the name for your point. Or else a ground rod cannot leave the ground, and a waterpipe cannot leave the ground either.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't see it. ........


What they're saying is this:

If you stub the rebar out of the concrete, at 2" from the end of the 'crete it is not longer considered as the CEE. Rebar is not listed as a suitable GEC. So the rebar between the connection with the GEC and 2" beyond the end of the 'crete is....... well........ NEC undefined.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

480sparky said:


> What they're saying is this:
> 
> If you stub the rebar out of the concrete, at 2" from the end of the 'crete it is not longer considered as the CEE. Rebar is not listed as a suitable GEC. So the rebar between the connection with the GEC and 2" beyond the end of the 'crete is....... well........ NEC undefined.


 
I understand 100% what they're saying. I'm just not seeing any verbage to back it up. If we're going SOLELY on the name concrete encased electrode, then that also means a ground rod is no longer a ground rod if it is sticking out of the ground. 

Once again, if there was a definition of CEE that stated it cannot exit the concrete, then I would agree. But we can't just say that becaus of it's name.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

Let's put this into perspective



Does this article mean my connection has to be 10 ft down in the ditch?:

*(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe.​*​​​​A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m​
(10 ft) or more


Because that's what you're trying to say:


*(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode.​*​​​​An electrode encased​
by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete

You can't have it both ways. Is your waterpipe bond required to be 10' back in the ditch or not?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> I don't see it. If there was a definition of CEE that said the entire portion must be in concrete, then I would agree.



The NEC tells us that the CCE IS encased in 2" of concrete.

Any point that is not encased is not a CCE and therefore not a point on the GES.


Let me ask you this.

How many feet long may the stub out be?

Can I make the stub 40' and run it all the way to the panel so I do not have to buy so much so much copper?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Let's put this into perspective
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually we can and must have it two ways as they are covered by separate code sections


And thanks for posting the encasement requirement


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> The NEC tells us that the CCE IS encased in 2" of concrete.
> 
> Any point that is not encased is not a CCE and therefore not a point on the GES.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not answering questions because nobody is answering mine. If I drive a 10' rod, drive 8' in the ground and stick a clamp on it, is the last two feet a ground rod? or a GEC? 

The 2" requirement applies only to the 20' that is actually making it an electrode, after that 20' the rebar can exit the footer, or be shallower than 2". The wording is met in 480's example of a 22' piece.


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Actually we can and must have it two ways as they are covered by separate code sections
> 
> 
> And thanks for posting the encasement requirement


 
Is the 5' of waterpipe inbetween the foundation and my clamp a GEC?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Is the 5' of waterpipe inbetween the foundation and my clamp a GEC?


Forget about the water pipe different rules for different electrodes


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## McClary’s Electrical (Feb 21, 2009)

BBQ said:


> Forget about the water pipe different rules for different electrodes


No different. I'm comparing definitions. 

If the last 2' of a 10' ground rod is still a ground rod then the 5' of waterpipe is still a waterpipe then the end of the CEE is still a CEE. 

OR:

The last 2' of a 10' ground rod is actually a GEC, then the 5' of waterpipe is actually a GEC, then the end of rebar CEE is actually a GEC. 

Only one of those paragraphs can be true at one time.


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## don_resqcapt19 (Jul 18, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> No different. I'm comparing definitions.
> 
> If the last 2' of a 10' ground rod is still a ground rod then the 5' of waterpipe is still a waterpipe then the end of the CEE is still a CEE.
> 
> ...


The CEE is the only one where the code says the electrode stops being an electrode when it is covered with less than 2" concrete. The other ones do not say anything like that. Once the rebar is no longer an electrode, what is it? The code rule says that the GEC has to connect to the grounding electrode. The code does not permit the use of a steel grounding electrode conductor. There is no code complaint way to install a CEE without making the grounding electrode conductor connection directly to the grounding electrode and that requires the connection to be in the concrete.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

don_resqcapt19 said:


> The CEE is the only one where the code says the electrode stops being an electrode when it is covered with less than 2" concrete. The other ones do not say anything like that. Once the rebar is no longer an electrode, what is it? The code rule says that the GEC has to connect to the grounding electrode. The code does not permit the use of a steel grounding electrode conductor. There is no code complaint way to install a CEE without making the grounding electrode conductor connection directly to the grounding electrode and that requires the connection to be in the concrete.


The funny thing about this argument is that there hasn't been one code reference in support of it. Please post the code stating that it is a rule the the connection to the ECC must be covered by at least 2" of concrete. The rule states that at least 20 feet of it must be encased in at least 2" of concrete. If I connect my GEC 1' from the top of my ground rod and then drive it underground, do I then only have a 7' ground rod? Then I would be in violation of 250.52 (A) (5) . 250 (A) (2) says you can use the metal frame of a building as a grounding electrode. If the grounding electrode only begins 2" below the concrete, then the portion of the building above the concrete is now your EGC and the steel structure is not an approved conductor.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

wendon said:


> The funny thing about this argument is that there hasn't been one code reference in support of it.


I disagree with you there, it has been posted.

Please look at 250.52 for what is _permitted to be used_ as a grounding electrode.

(2011 NEC)



> *250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
> 
> (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.*
> 
> ...


I do not see anything in that permitting us to use a metallic component (the rebar) as a grounding electrode that is outside the concrete.

I will ask you the question I asked above, How far can I run this stub out of the cement? 

Can I splice another rod onto the stub using 'the usual steel tie wires' to get me closer to the panel?

Yes? No? what in the NEC tells me that?


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

I was having phone problems yesterday and missed some of the posts.



mcclary's electrical said:


> I'm not answering questions because nobody is answering mine.


 LMAO 



> If I drive a 10' rod, drive 8' in the ground and stick a clamp on it, is the last two feet a ground rod? or a GEC?


Yes, the entire 10' becomes an electrode once 10' of it are driven into the earth.





> The 2" requirement applies only to the 20' that is actually making it an electrode,


Exactly, you said it perfectly. 




> after that 20' the rebar can exit the footer, or be shallower than 2".


Now you will have to show me in the NEC the section that allows that.


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## BBQ (Nov 16, 2010)

mcclary's electrical said:


> Is the 5' of waterpipe inbetween the foundation and my clamp a GEC?


Yes.


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## wendon (Sep 27, 2010)

BBQ said:


> I disagree with you there, it has been posted.
> 
> Please look at 250.52 for what is _permitted to be used_ as a grounding electrode.
> 
> ...


You can only run the stub out about 10". Otherwise it would be a violation of 110.12 :laughing::laughing:
I can see where you're coming from but I still think it's vague enough that the AHJ could interpret it different ways. I've never seen one installed around here any other way then to stub out the rebar. They usually take a 20' piece of bar and tie on an extra length to stub out so 20' is actually in the footer. My thinking is that the rebar is a lot more robust than a piece of #4 copper.


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