# Electrician in Critical Condition after Arc Flash at Walmart



## Jupe Blue

When you read the article it seems that local shoppers are more concerned that the store remained closed than the fact that someone had been critically injured. Seems like a lot of people have no compassion.


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## Big John

Hope like hell he pulls through.

We just lost a job because we pulled our quote after the customer insisted the maintenance be done energized. They really didn't seem to see the risk they were incurring by requiring that.


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## chicken steve

> Walmart is a major employer in our community. There are people who's jobs are a part of this and we have a lot of great retailers here that have a lot of great things to offer and we want them to stay here and don't take a trip to Fort Worth since Walmart is closed," says Jennifer Conway, president and CEO of Graham Chamber of Commerce.


I say Jenny drives the CoC bus to Ft Worth during Wallyworld maint shutdowns......

~CS~


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## backstay

Years ago I was told by a supervisor that "we" were going to go into the buss side of 480 volt switch gear to vacuum the wood dust out. I was told we were going to do it hot. I pulled the paper work from the manufacture that plainly said you were not to enter the area while energized. I asked for a meeting with the maintenance manager. Laid it all out and then asked how long they figured the gear would be down. 4 hrs, I said "now we know what an electricians life is worth". They decided to shut it down.


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## Bad Electrician

backstay said:


> Years ago I was told by a supervisor that "we" were going to go into the buss side of 480 volt switch gear to vacuum the wood dust out. I was told we were going to do it hot. I pulled the paper work from the manufacture that plainly said you were not to enter the area while energized. I asked for a meeting with the maintenance manager. Laid it all out and then asked how long they figured the gear would be down. 4 hrs, I said "now we know what an electricians life is worth". They decided to shut it down.


I take a different tack, I ask if you can't shut down for 8 hours for maintenance, how are you going to handle a 2 day outage while we temporary whats left of the switchgear after an explosion.


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## knowledge29

Jupe Blue said:


> When you read the article it seems that local shoppers are more concerned that the store remained closed than the fact that someone had been critically injured. Seems like a lot of people have no compassion.


I had the same feeling. People dont respect our line of work. That breaker could of been done during a shut down imo. The article stated more about damn shoppers and the economy then man injured. Disturbing..


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## sarness

Found a bad strip that shot sparks that was used to charge electric shopping carts. Taped over all the outlets and wrapped the plug with tape. Manager was more concerned on how they were going to charge the carts then sparks shooting out of strip. 

Kinda like how people drive anymore.


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## chicken steve

knowledge29 said:


> People dont respect our line of work. .


Our _own _industry doesn't respect_ our_ line of work, otherwise isolative means would be code, and _'we'_ (the worker antz) wouldn't be chasing anyone for a shutdown 

~CS~


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## Black Dog

Big John said:


> Hope like hell he pulls through.
> 
> We just lost a job because we pulled our quote after the customer insisted the maintenance be done energized. They really didn't seem to see the risk they were incurring by requiring that.


It's amazing that these people who are not electricians think that somehow we are magic men and can just work on everything hot

Would a plumber work on a live pipe to change a bad valve?:blink:

The water must be shut off so the job can be done right.

Now that kid will suffer the rest of his life because of this stupidity..


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## Wirenuting

Black Dog said:


> It's amazing that these people who are not electricians think that somehow we are magic men and can just work on everything hot Would a plumber work on a live pipe to change a bad valve?:blink: The water must be shut off so the job can be done right. Now that kid will suffer the rest of his life because of this stupidity..


Print the article out and hand it to the next store owner that doesn't want a shut down. Then see what he says.


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## Black Dog

Wirenuting said:


> Print the article out and hand it to the next store owner that doesn't want a shut down. Then see what he says.


I wonder who OSHA will fine on this one?


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## guest

Since news links tend to expire: 



> *Graham Walmart Remains Closed After Electrician Burned in Wednesday Explosion *
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> The State of Texas is giving shoppers a price cut on school supplies, clothing, computers and other items all this weekend, beginning today, during tax free weekend.
> However in Graham, shoppers will not be able to head to the biggest store in town because of an accident earlier this week involving a Wichita Falls electrician.
> Mechell Dixon joins us now with the latest.
> 
> Friends of 34 year old Christopher Wilbur says he is still listed in critical condition at a Dallas hospital after an explosion at the only Walmart within about 35 miles.
> Meanwhile, the popular one-stop shop will remain closed this tax-free weekend, which could seriously impact the economy of Graham and keep shoppers from taking advantage of big tax savings.
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> Shoppers count on Walmart in Graham being open which is why this sign caught shoppers, like Lucile Bilby, by surprise.
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> "I shop in here every week and I get my hair done in the beauty shop there every week. It's really the only place you can buy everything in one stop unless you go to Wichita Falls or Fort Worth," Bilby says.
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> The store is closed following an explosion Wednesday that caused third degree burns to 34 year old Christopher Wilbur.
> Graham fire officials say he was changing a breaker in the store's electrical panel when an explosion occurred.
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> "It arced inside there and a flash came out and got him the equipment in the building. The remaining clothes that he had on were on fire and the employees out there had put him out by the time we got there," says James Davis, fire marshal and assistant fire chief for the City of Graham.
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> Wilbur was taken to Graham Regional Hospital then taken by medical helicopter to Parkland Hospital in Dallas.
> Fire officials say Walmart will remain closed until the electrical panel can be replaced.
> While Wilbur's injuries are tragic, Graham chamber of commerce officials say the closure of Walmart means residents can still shop in the city.
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> "Walmart is a major employer in our community. There are people who's jobs are a part of this and we have a lot of great retailers here that have a lot of great things to offer and we want them to stay here and don't take a trip to Fort Worth since Walmart is closed," says Jennifer Conway, president and CEO of Graham Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> A friend of Wilbur's has created a Go Fund Me page to help his family pay for the mounting medical costs.
> And we're told other fundraiser are in the works.
> 
> If you're interested in donating to the Christopher Wilbur fund on GoFundMe, click on the following link:
> http://www.gofundme.com/cpb000


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## CFL

Does anyone know what size/voltage the breaker was and how the fault happened?


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## Switched

This is just sad...get's you thinking about the things you do, whether at work or at home, that you just shouldn't.

It hurt a little to click on the donation link and see the family photo. It will take a long time for that family to get back to normal, if ever.


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## paulgarett

I agree. Bad reporting.


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## fp.unit

What a ****ty article, oh the poor god damn welfare shoppers can't save 6% on pencils while a man is severely burned the rest of his life, disfigured, won't be able to work, and still might die. Disgusting.


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## Ink&Brass

Wow, we're going to make a bigger victim out of a multi-billion dollar corporation instead of the recipient of life-threatening injuries? The big green dollar machine must keep a turning I guess.


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## gnuuser

Big John said:


> Hope like hell he pulls through.
> 
> We just lost a job because we pulled our quote after the customer insisted the maintenance be done energized. They really didn't seem to see the risk they were incurring by requiring that.


you know these people can be reported to osha 
due to changes in safety regs they cannot insist you work live.

i think someone should read our posts over the news and see how those walmart shoppers and chamber of commerce feel then
also post photos of the injuries the poor guy received just to nail the point home


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## power

I am understanding that he was changing a breaker in a panel?

I might get flack for this, but I NEVER de-energize a panel to change/install a breaker......period.....NEVER. I always do it live.


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## Vintage Sounds

power said:


> I am understanding that he was changing a breaker in a panel?
> 
> I might get flack for this, but I NEVER de-energize a panel to change/install a breaker......period.....NEVER. I always do it live.


Good for you, tough guy. :thumbsup:


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## power

In the service industry, you just can't ask businesses to shut-down entire panelboards to change out breakers. 

NOTE: Naturally, I am not referring to distribution breakers (moulded case, shunt trip, etc....) or switch inserts.


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## btharmy

power said:


> In the service industry, you just can't ask businesses to shut-down entire panelboards to change out breakers. NOTE: Naturally, I am not referring to distribution breakers (moulded case, shunt trip, etc....) or switch inserts.


Oohhhh, yes you can. It should be the norm and not the exception. There is no reason to work hot unless it poses an even more dangerous risk to shut it down. Even then, the customer should sign off on your hot work permit, assuming any and all liability for any issues that arise as a result of FORCING the contractor to do something they have been warned against.


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## 360max

...we had an apprentice electrocuted to death a couple of weeks ago, RIP Brother


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## EBFD6

power said:


> In the service industry, you just can't ask businesses to shut-down entire panelboards to change out breakers.
> 
> NOTE: Naturally, I am not referring to distribution breakers (moulded case, shunt trip, etc....) or switch inserts.


I agree. I'm a commercial/industrial service electrician. I do hot work everyday. Customers are not going to let you shut down a panel in the middle of the business day. If I shut down every live panel I need to work in I might as well just switch my hours to 3rd shift. I would end up working more after hours shutdowns than regular working hours. 

On the other hand there are some situations that I would never do live and would absolutely demand a shut down. All hot work is not created equal. Knowing the difference is what makes us professionals, imo.


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## aftershockews

360max said:


> ...we had an apprentice electrocuted to death a couple of weeks ago, RIP Brother


Explain how it happened please.


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## eejack

360max said:


> ...we had an apprentice electrocuted to death a couple of weeks ago, RIP Brother


Very sorry for your loss.


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## eejack

power said:


> In the service industry, you just can't ask businesses to shut-down entire panelboards to change out breakers.


I hear that a lot on this forum. So explain to me how these businesses can afford the occasional screwup? Breakers go bad, buss moves, screwdrivers slips, someone gets bumped - whatever, things go boom. 

If you can't afford the time to replace it, you shouldn't do it live. It is cheap enough to do it off hours.

It is always better to have a scheduled shutdown than a sudden unplanned event.


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## chicken steve

360max said:


> ...we had an apprentice electrocuted to death a couple of weeks ago, RIP Brother


Condolences

~CS~


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## Vintage Sounds

I think it's in poor taste to talk about how much you love doing live work in a thread about a guy who was critically injured doing exactly that. Stop making it about you.


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## chicken steve

Especially considering the decedent probably met his fate listening to such bravado....

~CS~


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## Helmut

There is no need to shut a business down to change a breaker.

You need a proper plan, and use PPE.

In the article above, it is not Walmarts fault, and probably not the employers fault, it would be the electricians fault for doing it without PPE.

He should of known better.


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## eejack

Helmut said:


> There is no need to shut a business down to change a breaker.
> 
> You need a proper plan, and use PPE.
> 
> In the article above, it is not Walmarts fault, and probably not the employers fault, it would be the electricians fault for doing it without PPE.
> 
> He should of known better.


And yet the business would still be shut down even with the PPE.

No one would be hurt but the expensive damage and downtime would still be there.

The fault for the expensive damage and downtime would be the employers fault.


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## Helmut

eejack said:


> And yet the business would still be shut down even with the PPE.
> 
> .


Based upon the article, we don't know that for sure do we?


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## power

When I was apprenticing and a young journeyman, I was taught to change breakers live....it was the norm back then. It's just the way things were. 

Naturally, if I have the option of de-energizing a panel, I will. My earlier reference of doing live work has nothing to do with a "love" for it. Nor am I feeling any sense of gratification by this claimed "bravado".


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## madbubba

I never work on anything energized. All of my teachers and mentors always told me never to. There is NEVER a need to work on something energized. Its like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Just plain moronic.


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## don_resqcapt19

As long a "we" as the electricians continue to do work on energized equipment, with or without PPE, we will continue to have incidents like this one. 

As long as there are electricians willing to do that, we will have contractors and clients that insist that work be done on energized equipment.

Preventing these incidents can only be accomplished by the electricians refusing to work on energized equipment.


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## Helmut

don_resqcapt19 said:


> Preventing these incidents can only be accomplished by the electricians refusing to work on energized equipment.



I thought you were a Lineman back in the day?


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## eejack

Helmut said:


> Based upon the article, we don't know that for sure do we?


It is entirely possible that had the worker had a mask and arc suit his face might not have shorted out the panel, so you have a point. A pinhead of a point. Not even a dull pencil point, but it is a point.

All those damn electricians blowing crap up with their faces...


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## don_resqcapt19

Helmut said:


> I thought you were a Lineman back in the day?


Only been an electrician.


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## gnuuser

working live is just plain ignorance and complacency.
either one can get you or someone else hurt or killed
i was subbed to install a 400 amp panel once and the owner did not want to shut the power off. 

i asked him what would be more costly the down time or a wrongful death and criminally negligent homicide lawsuit?

he decided the power needed to be shut off before putting the panel in.

my other peeve is expecting a new apprentice to rack in switchgear

i think it should be mandatory that any manager regardless of what business they are in should be required to view arc-flash videos and take the classes twice a year


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## Michigan Master

power said:


> When I was apprenticing and a young journeyman, I was taught to change breakers live....it was the norm back then. It's just the way things were.


Same here and we did it without PPE or insulated tools, but that doesn’t make it right. It also used to be that only infants had car seats, lead paint was acceptable, and asbestos was a common… Things change.

The recent attention arc flash has received over the last decade has caused a renewed focus on electrical safety in general. Many of the changes I’ve seen in how we do work have actually *always* been OSHA requirements that were just never really strictly followed such as the requirements for de-energization, justification for live work, live-dead-live testing, insulated tools and PPE for shock protection and arc flash.


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## NacBooster29

I don't want to throw business names out there. But I have personally worked in a Walmart, under the direct supervision of a national company. 
They were sent to balance the on site UPS panel. Do load readings and remove a few general purpose circuits added to said panel. 
The tech, was under the impression we would enter these panels while energized. We refused as its our company policy. 
We can work live with all other avenues of shutting down are impossible. And we must document all parties requesting work, and why power cannot be shut off. And of course appropriate arc flash suites.
So any how the tech worked in multiple live panels no ppe. 
It seemed very routine for him. 
We can't play like that any more, my job isn't worth it, nor my life should an accident happen. 
If anyone is curious of the company pm me.


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## EBFD6

NacBooster29 said:


> I don't want to throw business names out there. But I have personally worked in a Walmart, under the direct supervision of a national company.
> They were sent to balance the on site UPS panel. Do load readings and remove a few general purpose circuits added to said panel.
> The tech, was under the impression we would enter these panels while energized. We refused as its our company policy.
> We can work live with all other avenues of shutting down are impossible. And we must document all parties requesting work, and why power cannot be shut off. And of course appropriate arc flash suites.


By general use circuits I assume you mean 120v circuits in a 120/208 panel? 

Do you guys schedule a shutdown every time you have to work in a 120/208 panel? 

I don't think I could keep a straight face and tell a customer that I need to schedule a shutdown to remove a couple 120v circuits from a panel. If the panel can be shut down for a few minutes whenever (during normal business hours) then I'll shut it off. There's no reason to work in a live panel if you don't have to, but I'm not scheduling an after hours shutdown for a 120/208 panel.



> So any how the tech worked in multiple live panels no ppe.
> It seemed very routine for him.
> We can't play like that any more, my job isn't worth it, nor my life should an accident happen.
> If anyone is curious of the company pm me.


It seemed very routine because it is. Imo, this is routine electrical work that I would expect any qualifed electrician to be able to perform safely without any issue.


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## NacBooster29

EBFD6 said:


> By general use circuits I assume you mean 120v circuits in a 120/208 panel?
> 
> Do you guys schedule a shutdown every time you have to work in a 120/208 panel?
> 
> I don't think I could keep a straight face and tell a customer that I need to schedule a shutdown to remove a couple 120v circuits from a panel. If the panel can be shut down for a few minutes whenever (during normal business hours) then I'll shut it off. There's no reason to work in a live panel if you don't have to, but I'm not scheduling an after hours shutdown for a 120/208 panel.
> 
> It seemed very routine because it is. Imo, this is routine electrical work that I would expect any qualifed electrician to be able to perform safely without any issue.


I didn't say I've never done it. 
I said its a game now. If you play in this company, and get caught or cause damage, there's no second chance. They hold the line. 
So yeah if almighty Walmart wants to shed some load off their UPS panel. They can shut it down, or go through the proper channels. 
I don't make the rules, but I'm smart enough to know what I can do.


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## KennyW

CFL said:


> Does anyone know what size/voltage the breaker was and how the fault happened?


I was going to ask the same thing. What's the typical available fault current inside a breaker panel at a wall mart? I've only been exposed to industrial systems and know nothing about commercial utility supplies so I really have no clue. It just seems wierd as I've seen arc flash studies on power systems that i would imagine could run several wall marts in parallel and were still only barely cat1 once you reach the 600v mcc (fed be an appropriately coordinated piece of switchgear with protective relaying).


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## Michigan Master

KennyW said:


> I was going to ask the same thing. What's the typical available fault current inside a breaker panel at a wall mart? I've only been exposed to industrial systems and know nothing about commercial utility supplies so I really have no clue. It just seems wierd as I've seen arc flash studies on power systems that i would imagine could run several wall marts in parallel and were still only barely cat1 once you reach the 600v mcc (fed be an appropriately coordinated piece of switchgear with protective relaying).


I don't know their typical panel specs, but image like most Wal-Mart products they're designed and built as cheaply as possible. Apparently Wal-Mart also has a history of, "_hiring of unlicensed contractors and so-called straw men to obtain local permits_".

Not much detail in the first article below, and the last two articles are about the same electrical fatality.

*Contractors working at Wal-Mart injured in electrical explosion* 
http://www.wnem.com/story/15915341/contractors-working-at-wal-mart-injured-in-electrical-explosion

*Suit raises questions about contractor safety* 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...tes/q2yZt39X9bw1gaLvjlMARK/story.html?camp=pm

*Life & a Cheap Death at Wal-Mart*
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/life-a-cheap-death-at-wal_b_1263512.html


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## chicken steve

Wanting to paint every electrical accident as 'hack' is exactly what the safety cabal predicated their existence on

Don't buy into it.

~CS~


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## KennyW

My intent was not to call it hack, was just curious as to what the typical available bolted fault current might be for the service itself for a store like that.


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## Michigan Master

chicken steve said:


> Wanting to paint every electrical accident as 'hack' is exactly what the safety cabal predicated their existence on
> Don't buy into it.
> 
> ~CS~


I’m not saying all accidents are due to hack work (although human error - which is different - does play a large roll). My comment concerning Wal-Mart build specs is simply an assumption based on how the company seems to conduct business; which is not to say that the panel wasn't code complaint. Ever see the documentary _The High Cost of Low Price_? But anyway, back to the Santos case (last 2 articles posted). 

The question of making money by “renting out” one’s license has been brought up on this forum on *several* different occasions, and pulling the permit then allowing unsupervised, unlicensed people to do the work isn’t right no matter how you look at it.


> Kekoka’s electrical subcontractor, T&M Electric of Arkansas, hired an electrician _solely_ to pull permits in Walpole, according to state inspection hearing records. State investigators found that Warren MacDonald, a Connecticut electrician licensed in Massachusetts, was never seen at the worksite, even though MacDonald was legally responsible for overseeing all electrical work. MacDonald’s license was revoked by state regulators who concluded he had engaged in “dishonesty, fraud, or deceit.’’


Furthermore, the lawyer representing the deceased’s family asserts that Walmart bears responsibility based on the retailer’s close relationship with its contractors. Texas-based Kekoka Construction (the general contractor) was formed more than a decade ago solely to work on Walmart remodeling jobs, according to sworn depositions by Kekoka’s president…


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## pete87

Electricians should do all Electrical Demolition . When the Demo Crew comes to Walls marked for Demolition , they should be safe to do so and cleared of all electrical hazards . 

Poor guy never had a chance , he was hit by 277V lighting circuit , could have been 480V in that pipe he cut .





Pete


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## Shock-Therapy

His coworker bared and yarded them out with his sawzall obviously only severing the feed to the lights. Then in the fumbling darkness possibly climbing out of the lift got lit up. And why? Time saved by not setting up temp lighting and the more efficient work that can be done under better lighting?


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## chicken steve

Michigan Master said:


> I’m not saying all accidents are due to hack work (although human error - which is different - does play a large roll). My comment concerning Wal-Mart build specs is simply an assumption based on how the company seems to conduct business; which is not to say that the panel wasn't code complaint. Ever see the documentary _The High Cost of Low Price_? But anyway, back to the Santos case (last 2 articles posted).
> 
> The question of making money by “renting out” one’s license has been brought up on this forum on *several* different occasions, and pulling the permit then allowing unsupervised, unlicensed people to do the work isn’t right no matter how you look at it.
> 
> Furthermore, the lawyer representing the deceased’s family asserts that Walmart bears responsibility based on the retailer’s close relationship with its contractors. Texas-based Kekoka Construction (the general contractor) was formed more than a decade ago solely to work on Walmart remodeling jobs, according to sworn depositions by Kekoka’s president…



My point is, most of our electrical legislation is engineered towards protecting the corporations *vs.* the actual electrician MM

And one of the biggest is the safety biz , no one can deny they are a huge player here.

Now you want to bring up license abuse here. There is more electrical work done under the guise of_ 'maintenance' _, which rightly should be a permitted install than the other way 'round.

_Why? _Because the laws in many states ALLOW maint men to undertake anything the companies the work for 

Try droppin' a dime on _that_, and see how far you get......

No license to loose justifies the crime MM, some $XXX fine is peanuts as well

Further, we're all aware of the national cookie cutter crews , myself included as i wired Vt's first Walmart 

Most of these companies know_ exactly _how to buck the system, yet should one of their _lackies _get zapped, the safety cabal responds like wolves to _red meat_

Amazingly, any decedent is statistically an _'electrical worker' _, along with the usual subsequent litigations and extraneous NEC codes aimed at our trade

Trust me, i grew eyes in the back of my head trying to watch them all ....

'Safety' is a term i view with disdain for it's loss of altruism via collusion 

~CS~


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## Michigan Master

I am sorry that safety appears that way to you CS. I think your point of view may have more to do with how you’ve seen 70E implemented than the standard's intent; there are quite a few companies that take the CYA approach.

I am fortunate that while our company does have some stupid safety rules, for the most part we’ve done a good job evaluating hazard versus risk and taken a practical approach to incorporating 70E into our electrical safety program. Sure there’s some things I think could be done safely that we don’t do anymore, but for the most part I feel better about how we now do work than what we used to do 15-20 years ago.

So Chicken Steve did not invent the Chicken Switch?


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## chicken steve

Michigan Master said:


> I am sorry that safety appears that way to you CS. I think your point of view may have more to do with how you’ve seen 70E implemented than the standard's intent; there are quite a few companies that take the CYA approach.
> 
> I am fortunate that while our company does have some stupid safety rules, for the most part we’ve done a good job evaluating hazard versus risk and taken a practical approach to incorporating 70E into our electrical safety program. Sure there’s some things I think could be done safely that we don’t do anymore, but for the most part I feel better about how we now do work than what we used to do 15-20 years ago.


Methinks you misunderstand my stance MM

I've nothing against safety practices for our trade

I just don't like the no-win scenario they hand us worker ants

~CS~


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## Wirenuting

chicken steve said:


> Methinks you misunderstand my stance MM I've nothing against safety practices for our trade I just don't like the no-win scenario they hand us worker ants ~CS~


Here they call it risk management using.
They told us the other day that we had to wear the plastic safety vests. When questioned about flammability the reply was "Statistically no one has spontaneously combusted lately". 
I told the A-hole to read 70-E.


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## JRaef

Wirenuting said:


> Here they call it risk management using.
> They told us the other day that we had to wear the plastic safety vests. When questioned about flammability the reply was "Statistically no one has spontaneously combusted lately".
> I told the A-hole to read 70-E.


That's just flipping sad... 

I recently did a talk on Arc Resistant Equipment issues for some plant Electrical Engineers and the subject of FR rated clothing came up because I used the term "AR" (Arc Resistant) clothing and they had never hear that term. So I explained that the term "FR" is no longer valid in the NFPA70E, it must be AR for electrical workers as of Jan. 2012. This caused a ruckus because they had JUST finished paying a consultant to go over their entire electrical safety program, who told them to buy all FR rated PPE for their electricians, never mentioned the new AR ratings. During THAT commotion, the "Safety Czar" of he company stood up and asked if that applied to the high visibility safety vests. I said "Do your electricians have to wear the vests?" He said Yes, I said "Then it applies. The vests need to have an AR rating." He said, "Well, that isn't in the budget..." Sad, just sad...


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## chicken steve

Wirenuting said:


> Here they call it risk management using.
> They told us the other day that we had to wear the plastic safety vests. When questioned about flammability the reply was "Statistically no one has spontaneously combusted lately".
> I told the A-hole to read 70-E.


Your risk, their management couldn't state my case better W/nuting :thumbsup:

~CS~


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## Shock-Therapy

JRaef said:


> That's just flipping sad...
> I said "Do your electricians have to wear the vests?" He said Yes, I said "Then it applies. The vests need to have an AR rating." He said, "Well, that isn't in the budget..." Sad, just sad...


Well now what?


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## Oses

gnuuser said:


> working live is just plain ignorance and complacency.
> either one can get you or someone else hurt or killed
> i was subbed to install a 400 amp panel once and the owner did not want to shut the power off.
> 
> i asked him what would be more costly the down time or a wrongful death and criminally negligent homicide lawsuit?
> 
> he decided the power needed to be shut off before putting the panel in.
> 
> my other peeve is expecting a new apprentice to rack in switchgear
> 
> i think it should be mandatory that any manager regardless of what business they are in should be required to view arc-flash videos and take the classes twice a year



Wow! Safety first, always.


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## chicken steve

Oses said:


> Wow! Safety first, always.


Yeah, sounds good, great sound byte. :whistling2:

But how many manufacturers engineer _safety_ into their products?

Here's one for you.....

American Panel w/main brkr , service entrance conductors are always live , unless you pull the meter.

Hence, by definition, we are_ always _working live , even w/main off introducing a circuit , or even checking one, because none of us are going to call the poco to yank the meter, are we? :whistling2:

How many times do you figure that happens a day here? :whistling2:

Oh but, go up the street to the great white north, and check out the shielding they've built into their main brkr panels :whistling2: looks like someone might actually be putting a few safety $$$ where their safety mouth is

~C_(w/apologies to those who wear their 12 cal suits to bed)_S~


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## Oses

I cant find my last comment. Take it easy, so i guess u gonna have to find yur way,Maybe yu should put tape around the main wire


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## chicken steve

I'm not trying to pick on you Oses

I'm just sick and tired of the safety zombies here

~CS~


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## Michigan Master

gnuuser said:


> i think it should be mandatory that any manager regardless of what business they are in should be required to view arc-flash videos and take the classes twice a year


Twice a year might be a little much, but according to 29 CFR 1910.332 those who *supervise* workers whose jobs bring them close enough to exposed energized parts operating at 50V or more to ground that a hazard exists, must _also_ receive appropriate electrical safety training. This should allow the discussion of safety requirements to take place at the manager level so that it’s not always left to the electrician to explain why something must be shut down or what PPE must be purchased.


Wirenuting said:


> Here they call it risk management using.
> They told us the other day that we had to wear the plastic safety vests. When questioned about flammability the reply was "Statistically no one has spontaneously combusted lately".
> I told the A-hole to read 70-E.


We’ve had similar issues, but instead of high visibility vests it was cut resistant sleeves (internal requirement due to the high number of lacerations). The issue was brought to the electrical safety committee, we found a product that satisfied both requirements, and management was then informed of what must be done if they wanted electricians to wear sleeves (yes, it cost more money). I realize not everyone has the same resources available… 


JRaef said:


> That's just flipping sad... I recently did a talk on Arc Resistant Equipment issues for some plant Electrical Engineers and the subject of FR rated clothing came up because I used the term "AR" (Arc Resistant) clothing and they had never hear that term. So I explained that the term "FR" is no longer valid in the NFPA70E, it must be AR for electrical workers as of Jan. 2012. This caused a ruckus because they had JUST finished paying a consultant to go over their entire electrical safety program, who told them to buy all FR rated PPE for their electricians, never mentioned the new AR ratings. During THAT commotion, the "Safety Czar" of he company stood up and asked if that applied to the high visibility safety vests. I said "Do your electricians have to wear the vests?" He said Yes, I said "Then it applies. The vests need to have an AR rating." He said, "Well, that isn't in the budget..." Sad, just sad...


Wow, that’s a really good (terrible) example of why you can’t just simply hire it done without due diligence. While there are many resources available to assist employers with devising a program and training associates, it is still something that requires careful consideration and continuance. Implementing an arc flash protection program is a huge undertaking and choosing the best method to incorporate it into the company’s electrical safety program depends on many factors such as type of work performed, size of the facility, availability of resources, and frequency of changes to the electrical system. 

Developing a committee consisting of members of the company’s electrical community, management and the safety department is very beneficial in conducting the required research, standards interpretation, decision making, developing procedures, and delivering training.

http://www.westex.com/the-difference-between-ar-and-fr/


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## Michigan Master

Martintech said:


> Three contractors are in critical condition after they were hit with 12,000 volts of electricity while working on a large fuse box inside a new Wal-Mart store in Bloomington.Arc flash analysis and the safety precautions that should be taken to avoid personal injury from these events. An arc flash is part of an arc fault in a system. *Arc flash Worker recovering from burns in electrical accident at dies after falling from ladder at Walmart.*


:001_huh: An arc flash worker? The guy was _recovering_ from electrical burns, and then died falling off a ladder? 

http://www.wave3.com/story/5373927/workers-recovering-after-being-burned-in-electrical-accident


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## eejack

Michigan Master said:


> :001_huh: An arc flash worker? The guy was _recovering_ from electrical burns, and then died falling off a ladder?
> 
> http://www.wave3.com/story/5373927/workers-recovering-after-being-burned-in-electrical-accident


After reading the article you link to...the big take away from all of this is if you don't wear your arc gear you might end up with the skin of dead people being applied to your raw flesh. 

Just the thought of it is enough...


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## Jason Harper

The safety is foremost in our job. I feel sorry for these electricians but have the authorities questioned the responsible company who has not managed to equip there workers with the safety equipment.

Of course they themselves were responsible too , but what about the rules , regulations and laws while dealing with such high voltage work ??????

There is always a danger of being electrocuted even when we work in homes with not much high voltage . But where high voltage is concerned proper safety measures should be taken. The safety gear is essential and there is no second chance for that. 

The idea of these people being burnt is quite horrifying.


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## LGLS

What the hell are primaries doing inside a WalMart?


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## Big John

IslandGuy said:


> What the hell are primaries doing inside a WalMart?


 I found an old thread where someone claimed to be an employee on that jobsite, and he said it was 480V gear. Just the usual poor reporting. 

As an aside, I found the OSHA summary on that accident, I'm sure this was just typed up by some minion, but man, it's disconcerting that the organization responsible for electrical safety would publish a summary using such amateur terminology:


> ...in a main electrical panel box. They had removed three of the breaker boxes from the energized panel...


 Does this mean they were injured while racking breakers? WTF does that mean?


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## KennyW

Big John said:


> I found an old thread where someone claimed to be an employee on that jobsite, and he said it was 480V gear. Just the usual poor reporting.
> 
> As an aside, I found the OSHA summary on that accident, I'm sure this was just typed up by some minion, but man, it's disconcerting that the organization responsible for electrical safety would publish a summary using such amateur terminology: Does this mean they were injured while racking breakers? WTF does that mean?


Hence my original question about the available fault current. Unfortunately it seems many of these stories seem kinda garbled. From a power distribution standpoint they don't make sense. Not saying the accidents didn't happen of course but just that it's hard to make sense of what's happened. 

I get the feeling that a lot of cases where a guy gets shocked are reported as "arc flash accidents"...


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## Jason Harper

KennyW said:


> Hence my original question about the available fault current. Unfortunately it seems many of these stories seem kinda garbled. From a power distribution standpoint they don't make sense. Not saying the accidents didn't happen of course but just that it's hard to make sense of what's happened.
> 
> I get the feeling that a lot of cases where a guy gets shocked are reported as "arc flash accidents"...


There is a difference in getting shocked and and arc flash . Watch these videos for a clearer idea .
http://electricalaccidents.wordpress.com/arc-flash-electrical-shock-video-footage/


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## KennyW

Jason Harper said:


> There is a difference in getting shocked and and arc flash . Watch these videos for a clearer idea .
> http://electricalaccidents.wordpress.com/arc-flash-electrical-shock-video-footage/


Yes of course there's a difference. My point is that it appears the media does not realize this. I get the feeling that the term "arc flash" has become a media buzzword and a catchall term for any electrical safety incident the media reports on. 

I'm well aware of the difference. That's why I asked what the available fault current at a typical distribution panel at a commercial facility like Walmart might be, which I am surprised no one has commented on. I don't know as I strictly work in industrial, but my gut feel is is the incident energy would be pretty low and makes me suspect an incident involving an electrical shock would be much more likely than an arc flash explosion....

I would venture to say that anything after the main breaker would have a pretty low category. If they were unqualified workers playing on the line side of the main incomer in nylon tracksuits or whatever and blew themselves up becuase Walmart sent them there then that's very sad indeed.


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## Big John

KennyW said:


> ...That's why I asked what the available fault current at a typical distribution panel at a commercial facility like Walmart might be, which I am surprised no one has commented on. I don't know as I strictly work in industrial, but my gut feel is is the incident energy would be pretty low and makes me suspect an incident involving an electrical shock would be much more likely than an arc flash explosion....


 Very likely exactly the opposite. 

Medium voltage gear is often able to deliver a lot of power at low current so is fused low, and with reasonably fast clearing times. This is not always true of course, and I've seen some medium voltage burn-downs, but I've also dealt with MV faults where we really had to search the cabinet to even find the point of contact that caused the ground fault, because there was so little energy involved.

Low voltage gear experiences high current under normal operating conditions so it necessarily has higher trip settings and longer clearing times. This leads to high incident energy. 

And if they involved the line-side of the breaker then suddenly they essentially have no protection, and the fault simply has to burn itself open. On the secondary of 1.5MVA transformer with a 5% impedance, you're looking at an available short-circuit current somewhere in the neighborhood of 62,500 amps. Even after adding in conductor and arc impedance, that's still a really bad day.


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## eddy current

chicken steve said:


> Oh but, go up the street to the great white north, and check out the shielding they've built into their main brkr panels :whistling2: looks like someone might actually be putting a few safety $$$ where their safety mouth is


FYI
The shield between the mains and the rest of the panel up here in Canada is only seen in residential panels. Those shields are designed to protect from shock, not arc flash. The arc flash potential at a ressi panel is actually quite low. 

I find that most companies have the same safety motto.......Safety third :no:


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## KennyW

Big John said:


> Very likely exactly the opposite.
> 
> Medium voltage gear is often able to deliver a lot of power at low current so is fused low, and with reasonably fast clearing times. This is not always true of course, and I've seen some medium voltage burn-downs, but I've also dealt with MV faults where we really had to search the cabinet to even find the point of contact that caused the ground fault, because there was so little energy involved.
> 
> Low voltage gear experiences high current under normal operating conditions so it necessarily has higher trip settings and longer clearing times. This leads to high incident energy.
> 
> And if they involved the line-side of the breaker then suddenly they essentially have no protection, and the fault simply has to burn itself open. On the secondary of 1.5MVA transformer with a 5% impedance, you're looking at an available short-circuit current somewhere in the neighborhood of 62,500 amps. Even after adding in conductor and arc impedance, that's still a really bad day.


Ha- I'm still not being clear I guess, as I think you just managed to disagree with me while basically repeating what I said.  I already said if they were on the line side of the main incomer then that's bad news.

Most of the equipment I work with are large materials handling cranes that are supplied 4160v to a 1.5-3MVA transformer which steps it down to 480V or 600v, and we do the arc flash studies for this gear. At the line side of the main low voltage breaker it is indeed bad news, the primary side feeder is coordinated for the transformer inrush so it is what it is. On the load side of the secondary main breaker though, it's surprisingly low from what I have seen- often it's cat 1 and the sub feeders below that are cat 0. With properly applied zone selective interlocking we can usually make everything in that mcc room except that one breaker cat 0. I also realize that stuff like zsi and other digital techmology probably aren't as common in a commercial install, but i can only think there is WAY more connected load than a wall mart going on in that scenario, but I was curious as I have no point of reference

If a Walmart really is supplied by a 1.5MVA TX then the risks would be possible for sure - the degree would depend on the coordination and layout of the overall power distribution. I would still argue that after that main breaker, the arc flash risk is fairly low. Definitely lower than the shock hazard.


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## Big John

Gotcha. It really depends. Smart engineers are spec'ing equipment with ZSI and maintenance-modes in the trip units. But I still see a lot of dumb thermal-magnetic or bare-bones trip-units going in that don't have any of that. 

Walmart ain't exactly known for their willingness to spend money; it wouldn't surprise me to learn they had nothing but plain-jane LSIG breakers in which case you'd still end up with the possibility for very high incident energy.


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## amigi968

chicken steve said:


> Wanting to paint every electrical accident as 'hack' is exactly what the safety cabal predicated their existence on
> 
> Don't buy into it.
> 
> ~CS~


I knew a very, very good electrician that has since died from his injuries sustained in an arc flash about 10 years ago now. 
Routine service call at an art gallery in a major US mall. Lighting was 480. All he did was take the panel cover off, leaving the dead front on. I was told he was just checking what breakers had wire on them since the panel had no schedule and every breaker was "on". At some point in the past, a small metal screwdriver, or box wrench, or something ( they couldnt tell what it was after the arc ) was left in the panel. When he removed the cover, it shorted all three phases at the top of the panel.

Who puts on a flash suit for that or wouldnt take the panel cover off? During the lawsuit, that is exactly what was brought up with the insurance company blaming him for his own accident. They acted like he was the biggest hack on the planet, parading safety expert after expert saying he did it all wrong.


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## chicken steve

Typical story Amigi

Nothing like having one's professional integrity assume _'osha poster boy'_ status , along with ones untimely demise in this trade.

It's easy to _blame_ someone who's dead, and can't defend themselves.

It's a lot harder to focus on the manufacturing ends lack of safety engineering, or the _no-win _standards working on them.

~CS~


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