# Mixed Union/ Non Union Shop



## wildleg (Apr 12, 2009)

why would anyone set up a cluster **** like that ? never heard of such a thing.


----------



## 480vac (Nov 11, 2013)

I recently relocated, but was an electrician for a sheet metal union for 13 years, along with non-union workers that were mainly engineers and mechanical/start-up techs.


----------



## Thomps (Nov 27, 2008)

There was an engineering company here a few years ago that worked in a large manufacturing facility. When the plant was being build they were targeted in a large organizing drive. The electrical arm was swung over to signatory while the millwrights & engineers remained non-union. eventually the electrical was shut and another electrical firm took the contract.

That was 20+ years ago.


----------



## Cl906um (Jul 21, 2012)

I have heard of contractors being double breasted where they have a union in one state, and merit shop in another. Town and country was bought out by encompass that was this way.


----------



## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

I worked for an industrial GC that is based in virginia, where it is non-union. Here it is union for all the trades. 

The only difference was that all the non-union branches made tons of money, and the one here lost tons of money. So somehow the losses helped keep the taxes down.

They had to form a shell company to get men from the hall.


----------



## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

The point of being union IMO is that there is portability with your healthcare, retirement, and your wage is the same. It's always higher than non-union shops, unless you're a superintendint or something.

Non-union gf's here don't make what a union jw does hourly. It's kind of sad. The benefits and retirement being standardized is what sold me though.

As for the getting laid off thingy, it's really a great time to spend with family and working small jobs. You can't be union everywhere and expect success though... right-to-work states have hammered the union wages down enough to where I'd rather go out on my own if I lived there.


----------



## uconduit (Jun 6, 2012)

I've worked for at least a couple large double-breasted shops where they would have a union shop under the primary company name and a subsidiary merit shop under a completely different name. Only one of those big double-breasted shops did multiple trades but everyone on that job was union though -- at least the "manual laborers" were union, the management most likely wasn't. That company basically treated the different trades almost like they were different business units like how a GC would treat subs. The different trades had their own meetings, own areas, radio frequencies, and had "color codes".


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

mr hands said:


> It's always higher than non-union shops, unless you're a superintendint or something.
> 
> Non-union gf's here don't make what a union jw does hourly. It's kind of sad.


And you know this how? Most certainly, not true.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

sparky970 said:


> And you know this how? Most certainly, not true.


It's very true.

There has always been a lot of animosity with the higher ups in union construction EC's here because the road supers and project managers are making $70-90K while a lowly journeyman electrician for the company is making $100K and a foreman is around $110K. Plus much better retirement and medical insurance.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

DIYer4Life said:


> It's very true.
> 
> There has always been a lot of animosity with the higher ups in union construction EC's here because the road supers and project managers are making $70-90K while a lowly journeyman electrician for the company is making $100K and a foreman is around $110K. Plus much better retirement and medical insurance.


Maybe on the East coast


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> It's very true.
> 
> There has always been a lot of animosity with the higher ups in union construction EC's here because the r*oad supers and project managers are making $70-90K* while a lowly journeyman electrician for the company is making $100K and a *foreman is around $110K*. Plus much better retirement and medical insurance.


Why would anyone want to be a road super or PM then?
The hours are generally longer.

Where I am at, a Super or PM makes appx. 29% more than a foreman.
The supers/PM benefit package is on top of the salary.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Celtic said:


> Why would anyone want to be a road super or PM then?
> The hours are generally longer.


 Why wouldn't they? If you wanted to do something for a living, would you suddenly not want to do it because a completely different career made more?



> Where I am at, a Super or PM makes appx. 29% more than a foreman.
> The supers/PM benefit package is on top of the salary.


Are you speaking about non-union work? This conversation is about union. 5 minutes away from you where I am, management type jobs are almost always non-union and filled by college grads. Some of them were electrician before, but they were mostly non-union. 

Once in a while a union GF will work his way up into management and negotiate to keep his union package plus some extra, but that's far from the normal.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> Why wouldn't they? If you wanted to do something for a living, would you suddenly not want to do it because a completely different career made more?


All the supers and PMs I have met, came up through the field...




DIYer4Life said:


> Are you speaking about non-union work? This conversation is about union. 5 minutes away from you where I am, management type jobs are almost always non-union and filled by college grads. Some of them were electrician before, but they were mostly non-union.


I am speaking of Union shops.




DIYer4Life said:


> Once in a while a union GF will work his way up into management and negotiate to keep his union package plus some extra, but that's far from the normal.


All the supers and PMs I have met, came up through the field.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Celtic said:


> All the supers and PMs I have met, came up through the field...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt what you say very much. I speak from experience from the last 16+ years of being in that exact position to see how it works first hand.

Are you a union member?
Is your company signatory?


----------



## Vintage Sounds (Oct 23, 2009)

My company has non-union electricians and a union HVAC/plumbing division. Nobody seems to care, everyone is being paid nicely and treated well. The HVAC side is only about 30 guys whereas we probably have well over 400 electricians.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> I doubt what you say very much. I speak from experience from the last 16+ years of being in that exact position to see how it works first hand.


....but you quit....and it wasn't yesterday so don't act like it is.

In your _last 16+ years_ , you may not have been exposed to the inner workings of a Union shop....
...unless of course you were in the office as a PM, super, estimator, or clerk. 
Were you any of those?
Foreman, AGF, GF...any of those?
Been privy to the bid package?
What were the numbers quoted in it to the client?



DIYer4Life said:


> Are you a union member?
> Is your company signatory?


How are those questions relevant ?

I can assure you, the percentages I have posted are dead nuts on and relevant....
A foreman's rate is $55 and change plus bennies, a Super/PM commands $71 plus bennies.

You tell me....what does a foreman make /hour...a PM/Super?



In spite of what you think you know....you don't know squat about me.


----------



## DIYer4Life (Nov 11, 2013)

Celtic said:


> ....but you quit....and it wasn't yesterday so don't act like it is.


 I did not quit. Even if I did, does that somehow negate all the experience? 



> In your _last 16+ years_ , you may not have been exposed to the inner workings of a Union shop....


How many years did you go out to lunch every friday with the road super and PM just to hear the bitching and moaning about how much the workers make compared to them? How bad their insurance is? How many hundreds of hours did you sit in the office or trailer listening to the same?

The fact is that I gave the truth from direct experience across multiple contractors, while you are talking out of your ass. You aren't union, you're just making assumptions from a few things you have seen from the outside.

For you to say that "_a Super/PM commands $71 plus bennies._" shows how little you truly know about all the union companies with non-union management.


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

DIYer4Life said:


> I did not quit. Even if I did, does that somehow negate all the experience?  How many years did you go out to lunch every friday with the road super and PM just to hear the bitching and moaning about how much the workers make compared to them? How bad their insurance is? How many hundreds of hours did you sit in the office or trailer listening to the same? The fact is that I gave the truth from direct experience across multiple contractors, while you are talking out of your ass. You aren't union, you're just making assumptions from a few things you have seen from the outside. For you to say that "a Super/PM commands $71 plus bennies." shows how little you truly know about all the union companies with non-union management.


Yea .

Look at Verizon, Atlantic city electric, JCP&L , pse & g.

They all have non union management that make less then the guys they manage


----------



## MikePEC (Jun 23, 2012)

One of the large union electrical contractors here in pittsburgh ran a little side show doing tract homes for one of the local new home builders and it was a known fact all over town.


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

DIYer4Life said:


> I did not quit. Even if I did, does that somehow negate all the experience?
> 
> 
> How many years did you go out to lunch every friday with the road super and PM just to hear the bitching and moaning about how much the workers make compared to them? How bad their insurance is? How many hundreds of hours did you sit in the office or trailer listening to the same?
> ...


If you say so sonny boy 

:laughing:


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

robnj772 said:


> Yea .
> 
> Look at Verizon, Atlantic city electric, JCP&L , pse & g.
> 
> They all have non union management that make less then the guys they manage


...they are not in building trades ~ there are considered "plant" or "in-house"....radically different concepts.
We might as well be discussing the differences between cars and horses.


----------



## mr hands (Sep 15, 2013)

Speaking of how business operates inside union shops... are we going to expand the conversation into how pm's feel like they are worth so much more than they are paid, and they setup dummy companies and cut po's to them? Yeah, it's amazing how all these jobs lose money. Hard to make money when the man in the front office has a high maintenance wife and a slew of inept nepotic cronies he needs to cover for. If his people can't make money, it's coming out of your sweat and effort. Which is why I don't work myself too hard anymore. 

I don't know anything first hand, I am just passing along what I hear in the trenches.


----------



## sparky970 (Mar 19, 2008)

mr hands said:


> Speaking of how business operates inside union shops... are we going to expand the conversation into how pm's feel like they are worth so much more than they are paid, and they setup dummy companies and cut po's to them? Yeah, it's amazing how all these jobs lose money. Hard to make money when the man in the front office has a high maintenance wife and a slew of inept nepotic cronies he needs to cover for. If his people can't make money, it's coming out of your sweat and effort. Which is why I don't work myself too hard anymore.
> 
> I don't know anything first hand, I am just passing along what I hear in the trenches.


Little early to start drinking


----------



## robnj772 (Jan 15, 2008)

sparky970 said:


> Little early to start drinking


Its so funny how you guys just don't like hearing the truth


----------



## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

mr hands said:


> Speaking of how business operates inside union shops... are we going to expand the conversation into how pm's feel like they are worth so much more than they are paid, and they setup dummy companies and cut po's to them? Yeah, it's amazing how all these jobs lose money. Hard to make money when the man in the front office has a high maintenance wife and a slew of inept nepotic cronies he needs to cover for. If his people can't make money, it's coming out of your sweat and effort. *Which is why I don't work myself too hard anymore. *
> 
> I don't know anything first hand, I am just passing along what I hear in the trenches.


:001_huh:

So which are you?
The theiving PM, the inept cronie or the high maint. wife?

:laughing:


----------

