# Residential Testing



## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Testing for the integrity of wiring in a residence:

You could offer three options.

1. Megger and visual.
2. Megger, visual and remove every device
3. Megger, visual, remove every device and high current test the circuit breakers.

I would push number two above.

In any testing your eyes are important, use them, a visual inspection is important
check everything appliances, grounding any exposed wiring.

First I would isolate all neutrals from grounds.

Disconnect all GFCI's, AFCI's smokes, remove all bulbs and make sure all light switches are on.

Megger, phase to phase in multi wire cables
phase to neutral
phase to ground
neutral to ground.

I would visually inspect every device pull them out and look

and as an option I would high current test every circuit breaker, time consuming and costly.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

Well the devil's in the details there BadOne.

First off, you'd have to remove any device incorporating electronica to meg it 

2ndly would be that most of what one would remove, especially in older homes, would not be compliant to reinstall.

This is where _'inspection' _( a tool less procedure) becomes a _'maintenance installation'_ , along with the usual liabilities.

Perhaps insisting on the original installs megged integrity would be more appropos...

~CS~


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## glen1971 (Oct 10, 2012)

A few thoughts...
- I don't think dimmer switches or GFI receptacles would take a great liking to meggering...
- Are you disconnecting the furnace, a/c and any other motors or just megger to the switch?
- Pulling the fridge out full won't be a ton of fun either..
- Are you going to be resetting all the digital clocks on every appliance? I know I hate power bumps for that reason alone..
- Three way switches would need to be switched while meggering so that both travellers can be tested.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Bad Electrician said:


> Testing for the integrity of wiring in a residence:
> 
> You could offer three options.
> 
> ...


Just curious, how would you high current test every circuit breaker? Is it really necessary? Unless the visual test fails. Maybe I am not understanding what you're testing. :001_huh:

I would however, measure and document all the circuit load currents under normal, and fully loaded conditions. When under full load conditions, do a temperature scan, wherever accessible.

Just my thoughts. 

Borgi


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

The NEC needs to implement something like this, it would in theory be able to eliminate the reasons why AFCIs got into the code in the first place. I don't see why we shouldn't, in most parts of the world this is already mandatory (in addition to a ground integrity test), at least option one is.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

If the NEC mandated this, the local inspection clowns would screw it up massively. Look at how much hoopla and effort is thrown into inspecting ground rods and rod connections. Tards. Nope, I like the newest version of EATON br series afci breakers, which, as far as I can tell are a standard breaker with a pig tail for neutral, an a test button that turns the breaker off when you push it. It no longer false trips. They have vastly improved it's performance by perhaps removing all afci chip nonsense from it's internals, while maintaining the appearance and price point of the formerly trip happy versions of said breaker , which is win win for both electrical contractors, Eaton, and electrical inspectors alike, knowing that code is achieved! Bravo Eaton....:thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

> Borgi said:
> 
> 
> > Just curious, how would you high current test every circuit breaker? Is it really necessary? Unless the visual test fails. Maybe I am not understanding what you're testing. :001_huh:
> ...


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

meadow said:


> The NEC needs to implement something like this, it would in theory be able to eliminate the reasons why AFCIs got into the code in the first place. I don't see why we shouldn't, in most parts of the world this is already mandatory (in addition to a ground integrity test), at least option one is.





Make Testing Residential Units a NEC MANDATE ? 

That will be the worse mandate since they made electricians install AFCI's .



Pete


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## Dmansee12 (Nov 22, 2013)

I have heard the term megger a few times on here but do not know what it means anyone care to enlighten me?


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

pete87 said:


> Make Testing Residential Units a NEC MANDATE ?
> 
> That will be the worse mandate since they made electricians install AFCI's .
> 
> ...


But AFCIs are being pushed in part because of the lack of meggering :whistling2:


Think, would you rather megger or AFCI?


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## pete87 (Oct 22, 2012)

meadow said:


> But AFCIs are being pushed in part because of the lack of meggering :whistling2:
> 
> 
> Think, would you rather megger or AFCI?




Point Given .



Pete


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> If the NEC mandated this, the local inspection clowns would screw it up massively. Look at how much hoopla and effort is thrown into inspecting ground rods and rod connections. Tards. Nope, I like the newest version of EATON br series afci breakers, which, as far as I can tell are a standard breaker with a pig tail for neutral, an a test button that turns the breaker off when you push it. It no longer false trips. They have vastly improved it's performance by perhaps removing all afci chip nonsense from it's internals, while maintaining the appearance and price point of the formerly trip happy versions of said breaker , which is win win for both electrical contractors, Eaton, and electrical inspectors alike, knowing that code is achieved! Bravo Eaton....:thumbsup:



Not if the NEC had defined values. British regs require it, and its a simple pass/fail. The megger will tell you your wiring will either trip a GFP or it will not. In theory megger would remove the need for any AFCI or GFP.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Dmansee12 said:


> I have heard the term megger a few times on here but do not know what it means anyone care to enlighten me?


 
Megger testing is actually insulation resistance testing, I wrote several thing for ET on that topic hopefully someone will find and post the sticky.

Here is a starter

Questions often arise regarding the use of Meggers I have posted some information, that hopefully is useful. Some of the information noted below is based upon personal experience; all users should familiarize themselves with the correct test criteria and test equipment prior to performing any work. Testing is NEVER completed on energized equipment. If you are not sure about your results HIRE a company that has experience in the test you are performing or obtain help in determining the results prior to possible damaging yourself or the distribution system you are working on. Lastly NEVER rely on a continuity tester or ohm meter to check any distribution system for shorts/faults. This is a good way to damage the distribution equipment, hurt yourself or worse, end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit
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From Wikipedia:
A *megger* (or sometimes *meggar*) is often used as an alternate term for an insulation tester - a circuit tester which puts a very high voltage at a very low current across two conductors to make sure that they are properly insulated. The word is short for megohm-meter.
It is in fact the registered trade mark of Megger Group Ltd who have manufactured insulation testers since 1889.
Older types of insulation testers have a small built-in generator turned by the handle. Modern types work with batteries and circuitry to generate the voltage required.

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Megohm = 1,000,000 = one million ohms
Gigohm = 1,000,000,000 = one billion ohms
Terohm = 1,000,000,000 = one trillion ohms
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Today meggers typically come is 3 basic styles.
1. Analog and can be line voltage, battery, hand crank or a combination of two
2. Digital and can be line voltage or battery operated or both.
3. Digital with an “analog” scale these are also line voltage or battery operated or both.
Typical DC voltages available are 50. 100, 250, 500, 1,000, 2,500, 5,000 and 10,000 or some combination of these. 
A decent megger for the ‘average electrician” has 250, 500 and 1,000 DC voltage settings, though I really like a megger that has a 50 or 100 VDC test voltage (in addition to 250, 500 and 1,000 VDC settings) as it allows me to pre-test a circuit with a certain sense of I am not going to fry something sensitive. I also prefer a digital analog style meter.
There are additional megger types for special test, but I have not included these as they are outside the scope of what the average electrician should have in his “tool case”
See attached photos 
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Meggers can be utilized to test all distribution equipment with a few considerations.
1. Length of conductors will affect the readings and you need to take this into account that there is a time to charge the conductors (typical times are one minute).
2. Long conductor runs will “hold a charge” always ground the conductors after testing.
3. Readings that fluctuate often indicate moisture and/or water. Leaving the megger connected can in some cases “dry out the problem” Though if moisture or water is an issue obviously this warrants further investigation.
4. You have to be careful that all loads are disconnected, meters, relays; control transformers can skew readings and/or show as a fault. Nothing worse than telling a customer they have a dead short when in fact it is a tenant sub meter.
5. Meggers can be utilized on 
Transformers - Primary to secondary, primary to ground and secondary to ground (assuming any grounded conductor has the connection to ground isolated).
Motors - line to ground (with transformers and motors phase to phase connections should read as a dead short) There are additional test used on motors and transformers this megger test mentioned here are basic go no go field test. 
Circuit breakers disconnects, motor starters - with the load disconnected, pole to pole line, pole to pole load, line to load (CB open).
Feeders to include busway - Phase to phase, phase to neutral phase and phase and neutral to ground.
Switchboards, panel boards, MCC’s ECT - Phase to phase, phase to neutral phase and phase and neutral to ground.
Branch circuits – Phase to Phase, phase to ground and the often overlooked, neutral/grounded conductor to ground. 
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There are test standards and specifications available for all megger test to be performed, these include NETA, NEMA.
http://www.netaworld.org/
http://www.nema.org/
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There are also some basic “rules of thumb”, for go no go testing also commonly referred to as spot reading and generally the most common test most electricians will perform..
If the distribution equipment in question has gotten wet, experienced a fault that results in carbon deposits IT IS IMPERATIVE a company that specializes in this type of problem be contacted. In the way to many cases (one was too many) of injury and death I have been involved in, water and previous faults were the number one and number two causes of injury/death.
This test applies to conductors that are existing. Obviously we would like a full scale reading (infinity) which depending on the megger can be 1000 megohms, 2000 megohms, 4000 megohms or some meggers have higher megohm readings. One thing to remember about infinity FULL SCALE readings, Infinity on you meter can be beat by another meter this all depends on the full scale of the megger in use and the test voltage.
It is possible to damage equipment with a megger if you apply too high a test voltage, so it is imperative you know what you are testing and what is connected to what you are testing.
Typically I like to see high readings 50 megohms or higher, additionally if the readings phase to ground are A-phase 1000 megohms, B-phase 75 megohms, C-phase 1000 megohms, there may be something happening with the B-phase and while an acceptable reading this may warrant investigation.
I hesitate to say that there are cases where I have had reading below 50 megohms where the distribution equipment was re-energized with mitigating circumstances. BUT in all cases the readings were above 5 megohms and the customer was made aware of the situation and signed off on the re-energizing. A good example of this would be underground feeders and/or branch circuits.
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So you have a megger, you have read the instruction manual, you read AECM and Megger links below now you are ready to test something.
Set the megger to the lowest voltage scale and insert the test leads. Put you gloves on (rubber and leathers), hold the test leads apart and push the test button, the meter should go to full scale (air in most cases is a good insulator), that is an excellent reading. Next touch the leads together and push the test button this is a dead short the megger should read “0”. Now get some paper and a no. 2 pencil and scribble lines two large patches for your test clamps and numerous interconnecting lines. Using different voltage settings hit the test button, the meter may give an infinity reading or some reading in between, or it paper and lines may arc and spark till the paper either catches fire or clears the “FAULT”. With different paper thickness varying the scribbles and changing the test voltage you should be able to get an idea of your meggers reading.
Another test that for some reason always amazes some electricians is to connect your multimeter to the test leads (assuming you multimeter can handle the applied voltages) of the megger and push the test button to check the test voltage. Normally the megger output is a few volts above the published test voltage, i.e. 1000 VDC on the megger results in 1052 VDC on the multimeter.
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What megger should you buy?

In my opinion there are 3 basic meggers I would consider

All should have test variable voltages up to 1000 VDC, be digital with analog scale, 2000 megohms or more full scale readings. And just my experience buy a Fluke, AVO Biddle Megger, or AEMC brand. Additionally I would recommend calibration of you megger, multimerter and amp clamp at least every few years (we cal all our equipment yearly). Figure on spending between 300.00-700.00 dollars. Obviously the better meters with options to include multiple test voltages are going to cost you... Get a good case and hopefully treat it like you do your multimeter (which is like you life depends on it, because it does). At a minimum select an insulation resistance tester, with 250, 500, 1,000 VDC ranges a tester with 100 VDC would be included in any megger I purchase. 
Fluke and AEMC do not mention the Trade name Megger [I think] they list these testers as insulation resistance testers Megohmmeters.
AEMC 
http://www.aemc.com/techinfo/Charts/Megohmmeter/Megohmmeter_Comparison_Chart.pdf
Megger
http://www.biddlemegger.com/cgi-bin/webshop.cgi?config=ent-prodlist&uid=nbeyemiw121002645030&command=link--bi2820.htm
Fluke
http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/categoryinsul.htm
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The best way to familiarize yourself is to test everything and document your results (for many reasons) and test often. Play with the tester. If the results seem questionable, question yourself, your test procedures, check the megger, leads apart then leads shorted.

Additional reading:

AEMC
http://www.aemc.com/techinfo/techworkbooks/megohmmeters/tech_megohm.pdf

Megger
http://www.omnicontrols.com/articles/Megger-A_Stich_in_Time.pdf

Fluke 
http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/1579160_6115_ENG_C_W.PDF

Additional reading
http://www.hipot.com/faqs/insulation.shtml
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_testing_insulation_save/index.html
http://www.sefelec.com/en/insulation-resistance-test.php
http://bg.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_insulation_testing/index.htm

Search the web…….


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

pete87 said:


> Make Testing Residential Units a NEC MANDATE ?
> 
> That will be the worse mandate since they made electricians install AFCI's .
> 
> ...



Actually I disagree everything you install should be meggered (insulation resistance tested) When I energize a circuit I want to know before hand that the OCP is not going to blow or trip open.

Also I want to know all my neutrals are free of shorts to ground.

The issue would be you would need better trained electricians and the trade is going in the opposite direction.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

meadow said:


> Not if the NEC had defined values. British regs require it, and its a simple pass/fail. The megger will tell you your wiring will either trip a GFP or it will not. In theory megger would remove the need for any AFCI or GFP.


 AFCI maybe conductors do fail over time.

GFPE, water, soot, dirt and other containments are always an unwanted option.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> Actually I disagree everything you install should be meggered (insulation resistance tested) When I energize a circuit I want to know before hand that the OCP is not going to blow or trip open.
> 
> Also I want to know all my neutrals are free of shorts to ground.
> 
> The issue would be you would need better trained electricians and the trade is going in the opposite direction.


Not only that, I know I will not start a fire if a staple was over driven.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> Megger testing is actually insulation resistance testing, I wrote several thing for ET on that topic hopefully someone will find and post the sticky.
> 
> Here is a starter
> 
> ...


I nominate this for post of the month :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

FWIW every time its mentioned on international forums we do not do IR testing people get wide eyed. In many regs IR is the most important aspect to safety.

These aren't the best examples but you get my point:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rum/101678-kitchen-sockets-3.html#post1097054

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rum/101678-kitchen-sockets-3.html#post1097058

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rum/101678-kitchen-sockets-3.html#post1097062

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...rum/101678-kitchen-sockets-4.html#post1097074





Whole section dedicated to testing:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/inspection-testing-certification-electrical-installations/


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> I nominate this for post of the month :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


My post was post of the month, admit it.:laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> Actually I disagree everything you install should be meggered (insulation resistance tested) When I energize a circuit I want to know before hand that the OCP is not going to blow or trip open.
> 
> Also I want to know all my neutrals are free of shorts to ground.
> 
> The issue would be you would need better trained electricians and the trade is going in the opposite direction.


I couldn't agree more. In residential wiring (and commercial too for that matter), our AHJ requires mandatory megger test of both the service and all the circuits prior to acceptance of the installation. If they don't have the megger reports in hand during the final inspection they will NOT call for connection of the service.

Its something that our AHJ rigidly enforces however. they still want us to install those stupid freakin AFCI breakers and this new edition (2015) of the CEC is about to require more and more of these things.


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> I couldn't agree more. In residential wiring (and commercial too for that matter), our AHJ requires mandatory megger test of both the service and all the circuits prior to acceptance of the installation. If they don't have the megger reports in hand during the final inspection they will NOT call for connection of the service.
> 
> Its something that our AHJ rigidly enforces however. they still want us to install those stupid freakin AFCI breakers and this new edition (2015) of the CEC is about to require more and more of these things.


 You have to megger all residential circuits? And document? That means making up all boxes so each circuit is complete. Then you megger each circuit from the panel? Megger hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground? If you have 30 circuits to do and document that has to be 3-4 extra hours? Not bad, but in a resi situation that does add some time$. I inspected and meggered a lighting strike house. They chose the megger option as opposed to close your eyes and hope. I gave them a price of $1500. It wasn't enough. 2600 sf house.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

te12co2w said:


> You have to megger all residential circuits? And document? That means making up all boxes so each circuit is complete. Then you megger each circuit from the panel? Megger hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground? If you have 30 circuits to do and document that has to be 3-4 extra hours? Not bad, but in a resi situation that does add some time$. I inspected and meggered a lighting strike house. They chose the megger option as opposed to close your eyes and hope. I gave them a price of $1500. It wasn't enough. 2600 sf house.


After Switch and Plugging, with exception of dimmers, GFCI's and smokes.

There are a variety of options, but in the end the consumer gets a safe reliable product.

If you were taught and trained as this was the way it is done ALWAYS it would be just another step in your job.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> After Switch and Plugging, with exception of dimmers, GFCI's and smokes.
> 
> There are a variety of options, but in the end the consumer gets a safe reliable product.
> 
> If you were taught and trained as this was the way it is done ALWAYS it would be just another step in your job.


 I believe if the code required it not only would it be something we do without question but manufacturers could even come out with all in one no brainer-meggers.

This is what most Euro sparkies use: 


http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/Ins...ltifunction-Installation-Tester.htm?PID=72323


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

Listen to me. It will be your Mactip of the day! All you will end up with if you keep this up is a badly miswritten new NEC requirement to megger all new circuits prior to installation of combination arc fault circuit breakers............


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

We might, but a non-corrupted NEC would have the option to wave arc fault requirements in a megger test.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

te12co2w said:


> You have to megger all residential circuits? And document? That means making up all boxes so each circuit is complete. Then you megger each circuit from the panel? Megger hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground? If you have 30 circuits to do and document that has to be 3-4 extra hours? Not bad, but in a resi situation that does add some time$. I inspected and meggered a lighting strike house. They chose the megger option as opposed to close your eyes and hope. I gave them a price of $1500. It wasn't enough. 2600 sf house.


 
You are exactly right. ALL circuits meggered from the panel.....hot to neutral, hot to ground and neutral to ground..........an documented. Its just another part of the job for us. We all have to do it so we all bid it into the jobs.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> You are exactly right. ALL circuits meggered from the panel.....hot to neutral, hot to ground and neutral to ground..........an documented. Its just another part of the job for us. We all have to do it so we all bid it into the jobs.


If you have faith in your work, turn on all the CB's and from the load of the Main CB, Megger L1 to neutral, L2 to neutral, L1 to L2, Neutral to ground all circuits at once.

Set your panel up so you have a neutral ground disconnect link so you could remove for meggering.

If you got a bad reading keep the Megger on and turn off one CB at a time.


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## Tiger (Jan 3, 2008)

te12co2w said:


> You have to megger all residential circuits? And document? That means making up all boxes so each circuit is complete. Then you megger each circuit from the panel? Megger hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground? If you have 30 circuits to do and document that has to be 3-4 extra hours? Not bad, but in a resi situation that does add some time$. I inspected and meggered a lighting strike house. They chose the megger option as opposed to close your eyes and hope. I gave them a price of $1500. It wasn't enough. 2600 sf house.


See if $3-4k doesn't make you happier.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Bad Electrician said:


> If you have faith in your work, turn on all the CB's and from the load of the Main CB, Megger L1 to neutral, L2 to neutral, L1 to L2, Neutral to ground all circuits at once.
> 
> Set your panel up so you have a neutral ground disconnect link so you could remove for meggering.
> 
> If you got a bad reading keep the Megger on and turn off one CB at a time.


A good idea Brian......I would just have to fudge a bit on my reports as the AHJ requires individual documentation for each circuit. I'm sure that would be easy enough to do though.

If nothing else.....your idea would give an excellent starting point if we had one or two circuits that required a little extra work.
:thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> A good idea Brian......I would just have to fudge a bit on my reports as the AHJ requires individual documentation for each circuit. I'm sure that would be easy enough to do though.
> 
> If nothing else.....your idea would give an excellent starting point if we had one or two circuits that required a little extra work.
> :thumbsup:


Depending on the Megger, if full scale is 2000-4000 megohms, then it would be possible to get full scale on a new installation of everything then it would be honest to write a report stating all were at 4000 megohms full scale of meter.

Now if full scale in in the teraohms that is another thing.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

More paperwork, wonderful. All the testing in the world isn't going to prevent the false tripping caused by the usual list of subjects. Sure, if it alleviates the use of AFCI, I might buy in. Those multifunction testers are cool, but probably overkill if you already have a decent Megger. The software to generate the reports is probably the more necessary tool.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

I am going to say that almost ever single building in the US will have at least one circuit that will not megger correctly.


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## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Quite possibly, though we would need to better define the standard of what is or not acceptable. Might already be established, not sure. When I look at UF, its nice to see it climb up in to the Gig ohm range.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

nrp3 said:


> Quite possibly, though we would need to better define the standard of what is or not acceptable. Might already be established, not sure. When I look at UF, its nice to see it climb up in to the Gig ohm range.


NETA sets standards.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

nrp3 said:


> More paperwork, wonderful. All the testing in the world isn't going to prevent the false tripping caused by the usual list of subjects. Sure, if it alleviates the use of AFCI, I might buy in. Those multifunction testers are cool, but probably overkill if you already have a decent Megger. The software to generate the reports is probably the more necessary tool.


The paper work is minimal and can be as easy as an excel spread sheet or a Word form.

All the testing in the world will prevent properly operating devices from real trips.


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## theJcK (Aug 7, 2013)

So Im for megging everything first (though only honestly done this in rare conditions or just playing around) but was wondering if after plug and switching.. we are saying megging at 500v? Im also curious as to how Bad advertises his services? I know youve said youre the electricians electrician... but what goes on the letter head and if any ads?


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## te12co2w (Jun 3, 2007)

Tiger said:


> See if $3-4k doesn't make you happier.


 That certainly would brighten my day, if, I could get the job. The only reason I got the rewire was because I was the first to show up to look at it.


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## sbrn33 (Mar 15, 2007)

Rollie73 said:


> A good idea Brian......I would just have to *fudge a bit on my reports as the AHJ requires individual documentation for each circuit. * I'm sure that would be easy enough to do though.
> 
> If nothing else.....your idea would give an excellent starting point if we had one or two circuits that required a little extra work.
> :thumbsup:


Where is this required? I have never heard of an inspector requiring something like this.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

theJcK said:


> So Im for megging everything first (though only honestly done this in rare conditions or just playing around) but was wondering if after plug and switching.. *we are saying megging at 500v*? Im also curious as to how Bad advertises his services? I know youve said youre the electricians electrician... but what goes on the letter head and if any ads?


 


Yes...........megging at 500 volts is the standard for us if doing resi. Most commercial is a mix of 120/208 and 347/600 so we test accordingly. 500 volts and 1000 volts respectively.


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> Yes...........megging at 500 volts is the standard for us if doing resi. Most commercial is a mix of 120/208 and 347/600 so we test accordingly. 500 volts and 1000 volts respectively.


QA/QC is huge on large construction sites, industrial and commercial, as it should be! :thumbsup: Every job is different, but at a minimum, insulation testing at the voltage rating of the cable.

*I have no issues with that attention to detail trickling down to residential.* in fact! I believe it has.  After all, we live in those buildings. They are our homes.

Borgi


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Rollie73 said:


> Yes...........megging at 500 volts is the standard for us if doing resi. Most commercial is a mix of 120/208 and 347/600 so we test accordingly. 500 volts and 1000 volts respectively.



Do you have an example of a test report you can show?


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

meadow said:


> Do you have an example of a test report you can show?


I can send anyone that wants a sample blank report one just IM me your email


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

theJcK said:


> So Im for megging everything first (though only honestly done this in rare conditions or just playing around) but was wondering if after plug and switching.. we are saying megging at 500v? Im also curious as to how Bad advertises his services? I know youve said youre the electricians electrician... but what goes on the letter head and if any ads?


NM is 600 VAC cable the standard is 1000 VDC but 500 works.

We do little advertising and I was told today by a contractor I was a DC institution, While I doubt that, it is how I get my work word of mouth. I have been in business 30 years and an electrician for almost 45. DURN I AM OLD

Though I am putting together a flyer for mailing to ECs, just to boost my customer base.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

sbrn33 said:


> Where is this required? I have never heard of an inspector requiring something like this.


The POCO in my area is the AHJ as well. They are called Nova Scotia Power. I can provide you with a phone number or two for some of the inspectors as well if you really want to verify this.


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## chicken steve (Mar 22, 2011)

*We're Meg Challenged here?*

So are we American sparky's the only _non-meggering_ part of the civilized 1st world electrical trade ?  And am i a further minority insisting on my old crank Biddle obtained from fleabay? :001_huh:

In our defense, the only meg article i can find in the NEC is>>


> *550.17 Testing. *
> (A) Dielectric Strength Test. The wiring of each mobile
> home shall be sUbjected to a I-minute, 900-volt, dielectric
> strength test (with all switches closed) between live parts
> ...


~CS~


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

Bad Electrician said:


> NM is 600 VAC cable the standard is 1000 VDC but 500 works.
> 
> We do little advertising and I was told today by a contractor I was a DC institution, While I doubt that, it is how I get my work word of mouth. I have been in business 30 years and an electrician for almost 45. DURN I AM OLD
> 
> Though I am putting together a flyer for mailing to ECs, just to boost my customer base.


Am I correct to assume that 1000 volts DC os ok on 600 volt THHN because DC RMS is equal to the peak of 600 volts? IE 600xsqt2=848 volts?

















chicken steve said:


> So are we American sparky's the only _non-meggering_ part of the civilized 1st world electrical trade ?  And am i a further minority insisting on my old crank Biddle obtained from fleabay? :001_huh:
> 
> In our defense, the only meg article i can find in the NEC is>>
> 
> ~CS~



I hate to say this, but the answer is yes. Insulation testing and earth fault loop testing are considered some of the most important aspects of the trade, its drilled into mind over and over and over...


The theory is that any hazardous conditions like open ground or insulation that may break down over time are caught ahead of time.


If we megged all resi home runs we would not need AFCIs, after all it was the 30ma GFP that caught all the defects. 


I would toss the cranky bidlde for this, even tells you how fast a GFCI trips:

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/ins...ltifunction-installation-tester.htm?PID=72323


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> The POCO in my area is the AHJ as well. They are called Nova Scotia Power. I can provide you with a phone number or two for some of the inspectors as well if you really want to verify this.


Sounds like a great idea to me. Testing and documenting before issuing a current permit. Very proactive. :thumbsup:

Just curious though, when they connect to the meter, does the crew still test first. I hope so.  

In Alberta, I am in the Edmonton area, there is no such requirement as far as I know. Just passing a final inspection.

Borgi


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

Dmansee12 said:


> I have heard the term megger a few times on here but do not know what it means anyone care to enlighten me?


megger or megging a circuit is testing the insulation with a megohm meter
this device generates a high voltage to test the integrity of the insulation
(generally 250 volt, 500 volt, and 1000 volt ranges).
although there are specialty meggers that go even higher
these devices can help you detect weak spots, breaks, deteriorated, and water contamination in the conductors.

i megger all circuits during an upgrade analysis and on new installations i also perform an earth resistance test as well.
all results are provided to the inspector, poco and i retain copies in my files as well including original wiring layout:laughing:

we could do earth loop testing here easily but we would not need the no trip style tester
but this device gives a quantitative measurement that you can put on the documents.
http://www.test-meter.co.uk/martindale-ez2500-e-ze-test-loop-tester/


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

gnuuser said:


> megger or megging a circuit is testing the insulation with a megohm meter
> this device generates a high voltage to test the integrity of the insulation
> (generally 250 volt, 500 volt, and 1000 volt ranges).
> although there are specialty meggers that go even higher
> ...


You know, now you have me curious, does BS7671 

http://www.thailandlift.org/documents/BS7671-2008.pdf


have any guidelines or requirements on testing?


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

meadow said:


> You know, now you have me curious, does BS7671
> 
> http://www.thailandlift.org/documents/BS7671-2008.pdf
> 
> ...


you can find them in the best practices guides 
I have them downloaded in my comp 
ill find the link and post it for you


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

gnuuser said:


> you can find them in the best practices guides
> I have them downloaded in my comp
> ill find the link and post it for you


Thanks Dude!


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> Am I correct to assume that 1000 volts DC os ok on 600 volt THHN because DC RMS is equal to the peak of 600 volts? IE 600xsqt2=848 volts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





chicken steve said:


> So are we American sparky's the only _non-meggering_ part of the civilized 1st world electrical trade ?  And am i a further minority insisting on my old crank Biddle obtained from fleabay? :001_huh:
> 
> In our defense, the only meg article i can find in the NEC is>>
> 
> ~CS~



This conjecture leads to me asking- So in countries that perform megger testing of all dwelling circuits as part of inspection process have eliminated all electrical in nature fires? And of course Mr. Meadow has verifiable proof of the statements he has been making about how perfectly meggering works , from those countries that require it at inspection time.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> This conjecture leads to me asking- So in countries that perform megger testing of all dwelling circuits as part of inspection process have eliminated all electrical in nature fires? And of course Mr. Meadow has verifiable proof of the statements he has been making about how perfectly meggering works , from those countries that require it at inspection time.


Fires are lower, the statics at least say that, however insulation resistance testing does have a limitation: it does not stop glowing connections.


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> Fires are lower, the statics at least say that, however insulation resistance testing does have a limitation: it does not stop glowing connections.


Show the proof and I will buy into the cool aid. I megger stuff all the time. I always have going a long long way back. I don't dispute the effectiveness of the testing, but want to have me some proof of your claims before I get near to jumping on your bandwagon.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> Show the proof and I will buy into the cool aid. I megger stuff all the time. I always have going a long long way back. I don't dispute the effectiveness of the testing, but want to have me some proof of your claims before I get near to jumping on your bandwagon.


Other than everyone's doing it and lower fire statics, Chicken Steve or Bad Electrician will have better proof.


But, I have to ask, what if I over drive a staple having it become energized?


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## macmikeman (Jan 23, 2007)

meadow said:


> Other than everyone's doing it and lower fire statics, Chicken Steve or Bad Electrician will have better proof.
> 
> 
> But, I have to ask, what if I over drive a staple having it become energized?


If you overdrive a staple, then you're customer's will flock to macmikeman electric cause such an event is not going to happen at macmikeman electric, not ever. Next question please.


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

macmikeman said:


> If you overdrive a staple, then you're customer's will flock to macmikeman electric cause such an event is not going to happen at macmikeman electric, not ever. Next question please.



I know, but others electricians do. You cant see it once the walls are up.


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## Bessie6639 (Apr 30, 2015)

A thorough assessment of the electrical system will determine the extent to which wiring can be reused. This assessment should be conducted only by a qualified electrician who is experienced in residential electrical work. I had my home inspection done by a specialized team of home electricians in Orillia. One must always be careful regarding residential wiring.


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

Bessie6639 said:


> A thorough assessment of the electrical system will determine the extent to which wiring can be reused.* This assessment should be conducted only by a qualified electrician who is experienced in residential electrical work*. I had my home inspection done by a specialized team of home electricians in Orillia. One must always be careful regarding residential wiring.


I do not buy that a properly trained electrician with a testing background can test pretty much test any electrical distribution system.

We test and maintain.

AC and DC power systems from 24 VDC to 35KV AC and in that realm a house is simple.

Not big on the company name SHOCK DOCTORS, kind of hacky IN MY OPINION, but if it works, heck what do I know.



> When electrical wiring and equipment is subjected to a lightning strike or *voltage surge*, all fixtures, switch, outlet and panel covers shall be removed and the wiring visually inspected for evidence of arcing or burning damage. Where evidence is found, then a further visual inspection of all wiring shall be done. This will likely result in removing wall and ceiling coverings to permit inspection of concealed wiring.


 And how do you know when you have a voltage surge, you could be having surges everyday and never know it.


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## gnuuser (Jan 13, 2013)

heres the link to the best practices guides 
they are downloadable pdf files 

http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/electrical-professionals/best-practice-guides/


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

meadow said:


> Do you have an example of a test report you can show?


Sorry Meadow......I'm not near the office, in fact I'm in Alberta at this time. I fly home tomorrow and will PM you a copy of my simple test reports when I get there.



Borgi said:


> Sounds like a great idea to me. Testing and documenting before issuing a current permit. Very proactive. :thumbsup:
> 
> Just curious though, when they connect to the meter, does the crew still test first. I hope so.
> 
> ...


No requirement in Alberta for it Borgi......I just completed a job in Fort McMurray and asked the inspector about that when he came for the final.

In answer to your question......the line crew always tests for voltage and meggers the service as well before connecting the meter.:thumbsup:


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## Bad Electrician (May 20, 2014)

meadow said:


> Do you have an example of a test report you can show?


Did I send you a copy?


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> Sorry Meadow......I'm not near the office, in fact I'm in Alberta at this time. I fly home tomorrow and will PM you a copy of my simple test reports when I get there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen them do a simple test to ground, but never an insulation test.

Borgi


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## Meadow (Jan 14, 2011)

FWIW I came across this showing how to use a multi function tester:

http://www.tester.co.uk/fluke-1651b-multifunction-installation-tester


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Borgi said:


> I have seen them do a simple test to ground, but never an insulation test.
> 
> Borgi


To be clear, a simple test making sure there are no dead shorts to ground, or between conductors.

In Alberta, there are many utility providers, and many agencies that do the inspections. *In residential,* I have never heard an inspector ask for the insulation tests Rollie73 is speaking of.

Borgi


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## 51360 (Jun 9, 2014)

Rollie73 said:


> The POCO in my area is the AHJ as well. They are called Nova Scotia Power. I can provide you with a phone number or two for some of the inspectors as well if you really want to verify this.


Here is a good link to Nova Scotia Power. There is a very good video here worth watching. 

http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/building-or-renovating/default.aspx

Borgi


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Borgi said:


> Here is a good link to Nova Scotia Power. There is a very good video here worth watching.
> 
> http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/building-or-renovating/default.aspx
> 
> Borgi


Its the only good thing from NSP. I hate dealing with them and their bureaucracy. They treat us EC's like second class citizens, make it absolutely as difficult as possible to get a power connection without jumping through hoops and have a list of amendments about a mile long, some of which are available on the website but the majority of, you get via emails.

Accidentally delete and email and its like a witch trial to get a copy of the amendment.:laughing:


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

I've had a few requests about my forms for this testing. Rather than send them out via PM's or emails.........

I've removed the letterhead and any identifiable information from the forms.


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## Rollie73 (Sep 19, 2010)

Sorry guys........the wrong form kept popping up.

Here it is.


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