# Just heard about 103's apprentice wages



## xebo

I might be misinformed, but I heard local 103 (NYC) starts their first year apprentices off at $11/hr. Now, I live in a small texas city where the cost of living might - in an expensive part of town - be 1/4th of New York's. Non Union apprentices here start at $12/hr, and that is barely enough to have a borderline not-poor lifestyle as a single adult.

I was reading an old thread where the NYC apprentices were complaining, and the 103 journeymen - getting paid $51/hr - were telling them to "quit crying", "get a second job", and "Well don't join then".

I have no association with 103. I don't even live in New York. In fact, I'm not even in the Union yet (thought I hope to join soon). But I thought I'd voice an opinion as a (relatively) unbiased observer:

I think sometimes you see something that is so far out of your reality - so utterly ridiculous - that you can't even react to it. This is definitely one of those situations. A union created to ensure a livable wage for working class men institutes a system like this. Just slavery. Modern slavery for the chance at being able to earn a living. 

I get that it's an issue of supply and demand. They can lower rates and still get plenty applicants for apprenticeship. I'm just shocked that they'd act on that opportunity, completely bastardizing every concept they claim to support.

And I'm not saying apprentices should make the same as journeymen. I'm saying they should make the standard 50'ish% as every other local offers. Pay your dues, yeah, but do so while being able to live a normal life - not a life of utter and complete poverty in the world's most expensive city.

I don't normally subscribe to holier-than-thou perspectives, especially on the internet, and I'm sure there will be a gaggle of people criticizing me for even making this post, but someone has to say it: Shame on you.


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## farlsincharge

No one puts a gun to their heads.


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## 360max

*Local 3* is NYC


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## Black Dog

xebo said:


> I might be misinformed, but I heard local 103 (NYC) starts their first year apprentices off at $11/hr. Now, I live in a small texas city where the cost of living might - in an expensive part of town - be 1/4th of New York's. Non Union apprentices here start at $12/hr, and that is barely enough to have a borderline not-poor lifestyle as a single adult.
> 
> I was reading an old thread where the NYC apprentices were complaining, and the 103 journeymen - getting paid $51/hr - were telling them to "quit crying", "get a second job", and "Well don't join then".
> 
> I have no association with 103. I don't even live in New York. In fact, I'm not even in the Union yet (thought I hope to join soon). But I thought I'd voice an opinion as a (relatively) unbiased observer:
> 
> I think sometimes you see something that is so far out of your reality - so utterly ridiculous - that you can't even react to it. This is definitely one of those situations. A union created to ensure a livable wage for working class men institutes a system like this. Just slavery. Modern slavery for the chance at being able to earn a living.
> 
> I get that it's an issue of supply and demand. They can lower rates and still get plenty applicants for apprenticeship. I'm just shocked that they'd act on that opportunity, completely bastardizing every concept they claim to support.
> 
> And I'm not saying apprentices should make the same as journeymen. I'm saying they should make the standard 50'ish% as every other local offers. Pay your dues, yeah, but do so while being able to live a normal life - not a life of utter and complete poverty in the world's most expensive city.
> 
> I don't normally subscribe to holier-than-thou perspectives, especially on the internet, and I'm sure there will be a gaggle of people criticizing me for even making this post, but someone has to say it: Shame on you.


Local 103 in Boston and I'll bet that a green helper gets more than $20 an hour.


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## MTW

Black Dog said:


> Local 103 in Boston and I'll bet that a green helper gets more than $20 an hour.


:no:


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## Shock-Therapy

$20 an hour.....are we talking about total compensation? Wages + benefits? Thats completely within reason.


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## Black Dog

MTW said:


> :no:


So pete what's a green helper get in the 103?


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## MTW

Black Dog said:


> So pete what's a green helper get in the 103?


A first year apprentice probably makes 14-16 an hour.


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## xebo

I read it used to be 14 until they cut it down to 11.

$11/hr in New York City.


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## Black Dog

MTW said:


> A first year apprentice probably makes 14-16 an hour.


That is not in the union, but the regular trade, you will not get a helper for less here.


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## MTW

Black Dog said:


> That is not in the union, but the regular trade, you will not get a helper for less here.


You said a green helper makes $20/hr in the union. I said you are wrong about that. Apprentice wages in the union are very low starting out, even if journeyman pay is close to $50/hr. If I'm not mistaken a 1st year usually starts out around 35% of journeyman pay.


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## sbrn33

MTW said:


> You said a green helper makes $20/hr in the union. I said you are wrong about that. Apprentice wages in the union are very low starting out, even if journeyman pay is close to $50/hr. If I'm not mistaken a 1st year usually starts out around 35% of journeyman pay.


$17.5 is pretty darn close to $20


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## Quijibo

1st year apprentices make $18 and change in the pocket. 

~103 Journeyman


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## Quijibo

Most 1st years are right out of high school or in their 20s. That's a damn good wage.


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## dawgs

xebo said:


> I might be misinformed, but I heard local 103 (NYC) starts their first year apprentices off at $11/hr. Now, I live in a small texas city where the cost of living might - in an expensive part of town - be 1/4th of New York's. Non Union apprentices here start at $12/hr, and that is barely enough to have a borderline not-poor lifestyle as a single adult.
> 
> I was reading an old thread where the NYC apprentices were complaining, and the 103 journeymen - getting paid $51/hr - were telling them to "quit crying", "get a second job", and "Well don't join then".
> 
> I have no association with 103. I don't even live in New York. In fact, I'm not even in the Union yet (thought I hope to join soon). But I thought I'd voice an opinion as a (relatively) unbiased observer:
> 
> I think sometimes you see something that is so far out of your reality - so utterly ridiculous - that you can't even react to it. This is definitely one of those situations. A union created to ensure a livable wage for working class men institutes a system like this. Just slavery. Modern slavery for the chance at being able to earn a living.
> 
> I get that it's an issue of supply and demand. They can lower rates and still get plenty applicants for apprenticeship. I'm just shocked that they'd act on that opportunity, completely bastardizing every concept they claim to support.
> 
> And I'm not saying apprentices should make the same as journeymen. I'm saying they should make the standard 50'ish% as every other local offers. Pay your dues, yeah, but do so while being able to live a normal life - not a life of utter and complete poverty in the world's most expensive city.
> 
> I don't normally subscribe to holier-than-thou perspectives, especially on the internet, and I'm sure there will be a gaggle of people criticizing me for even making this post, but someone has to say it: Shame on you.


Or the other alternative is you can drop a 100k in college debt over 5 years and come out at entry level 35,000 per year with 100k dept. I would take the paid training and be happy, you will come out ahead in the long run.


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## xebo

Redacting this thread since my info was out dated, but fyi "Our situation sucks, but the alternative is worse" isn't very persuasive.


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## TheWiz

It's not supposed to be persuasive. Every local can set their own apprentice wages. In some locals apprentices may start at 50% in others it may be less. for a local that's wage is at $50, bringing in a complete newb at $25 would be paying more than he/she are worth at that time. In a massive local it could also be a great way to see who is really in it for the long haul.


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## JW Splicer

I believe local 3 starts first years at 11$ an hour. I could be mistaken, but they have something that works for them. 14000 members and work willing 300 new Cubs a year. You don't want to train a guy that is gonna wash out 2nd or 3rd year. It's a way to make sure you get people that know they want to be wireman. 50$ an hour and all the bennies that come with local 3 is something to look forward too. 11$ is good pay to hold a parking place... At least that's what an ol' tramp told me... Haha
Contrast with other locals, 14$ to start a green first year that just saw $$ signs in their eyes get to 3rd year and wash out just to get on with an open shop for 17$ and be the smartest guy on the crew and the official Union expert... Seen it happen more than once.

Edit: isn't NYC 13$ minimum now


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## xebo

JW Splicer said:


> I believe local 3 starts first years at 11$ an hour. I could be mistaken, but they have something that works for them. 14000 members and work willing 300 new Cubs a year. You don't want to train a guy that is gonna wash out 2nd or 3rd year. It's a way to make sure you get people that know they want to be wireman. 50$ an hour and all the bennies that come with local 3 is something to look forward too. 11$ is good pay to hold a parking place... At least that's what an ol' tramp told me... Haha
> Contrast with other locals, 14$ to start a green first year that just saw $$ signs in their eyes get to 3rd year and wash out just to get on with an open shop for 17$ and be the smartest guy on the crew and the official Union expert... Seen it happen more than once.
> 
> Edit: isn't NYC 13$ minimum now


Justify it however you want, but part of growing up is learning to not sacrifice your present for your future. Living in poverty (Which $11/hr will buy you in NYC) is poverty. Complete poverty. And anyone that subjects themselves to that lifestyle is very, very desperate. Taking advantage of that desperation because of supply/demand is messed up.


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## FrunkSlammer

$11/hr is a hell of a lot better than -$11/hr that most college kids are paying.

Don't forget an apprenticeship is a training program.. you're getting paid to learn. If you don't like it, go to school for 14 years, rack up $200k in student loans and become a doctor.


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## xebo

FrunkSlammer said:


> $11/hr is a hell of a lot better than -$11/hr that most college kids are paying.
> 
> Don't forget an apprenticeship is a training program.. you're getting paid to learn. If you don't like it, go to school for 14 years, rack up $200k in student loans and become a doctor.


"Oh, you gotta problem with DEBT!? Feel free to join the army, live in the desert, and get shot at for a living. Then you'll change your tune about college debt"

"You don't like getting shot at do you? Well feel free to live in the streets like a BUM asking for change. Bullets and sand don't sound so bad now, do they?"


Yes. We've established many facets of life suck. I'm glad we agree on something. It seems we also agree that $11/hr in NYC sucks too. You seem to think that because there are worse situations out there, that we should shrug and be ok with it.

the fact that UNION MEMBERS are making this argument is flat out hilarious. You do realize that was the exact mentality of big business before the labor class unionized right? The exact reason why the union was formed was to PREVENT working class men from living in poverty, and yet that's exactly what they seem to be doing with their apprentices. 

But it's only for 5 years, so it's ok 

There's only so much absurdity I can tolerate man.


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## FrunkSlammer

Yes we should all make millions because most CEO's make millions. 

You gotta work your way up and getting paid to learn is the best deal in town. It's not SOME situations are worse, all situations are worse. You get paid $11/hr to start training, and it will go up every 6months or 12 months, until you are competent and licensed and get paid the standard wage.

It's the best deal in town, bar none. 

Don't like NYC? Move to Tennessee or some other crap hole where $11/hr is more than even the local 14 year old prostitute makes.


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## Quijibo

I can't believe people are saying that minimum wage for a job where you know nothing and getting paid to learn is a bad idea. Boston gives you a $2 raise every 6 months. How many jobs do that?! It looks to me that my apprenticeship has been my best 5 financial years of my life.


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## eejack

xebo said:


> Yes. We've established many facets of life suck. I'm glad we agree on something. It seems we also agree that $11/hr in NYC sucks too. You seem to think that because there are worse situations out there, that we should shrug and be ok with it.
> 
> the fact that UNION MEMBERS are making this argument is flat out hilarious. You do realize that was the exact mentality of big business before the labor class unionized right? The exact reason why the union was formed was to PREVENT working class men from living in poverty, and yet that's exactly what they seem to be doing with their apprentices.
> 
> But it's only for 5 years, so it's ok
> 
> There's only so much absurdity I can tolerate man.


It is only for a year. It also comes with benefits and a start on pensions and annuities. It comes with schooling but it is also a one year probation.

All of our apprentice programs were intended for a young person just getting into the workplace, come out of high school and into the trades. In some respects we have not grown out of that old mentality.

The current reality is that many kids go to college, burn up those years, create a pile of debt and then when they decide to enter the workforce they need more than apprentice pay.

It is part of a larger set of issues, the lack of middle class jobs is driving the older workforce into starter jobs, the older workforce is driving young folks out of work, moving from a manufacturing economy to a service economy, shouldering the economy with massive unnecessary student loan debt. In those other issues the last remaining middle class jobs have not been as spry about adapting as they should have been, which is where the union are right now - trying to preserve a set of methods that may or may not be appropriate to the times.

All that said, it does work. Contractors want cheap first year labor, the unions want to weed out those who are not capable. By third/fourth year most locals are paying apprentices packages comparable to non union journeyman and these apprentices are likely to spend decades in the trade, having already received years of training and classroom education.

Your point is valid, that is a cheap starting wage for an organization that prides itself on ensuring good compensation for it's commodity...but it is not the entire story.


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## Quijibo

eejack said:


> It is only for a year. It also comes with benefits and a start on pensions and annuities. It comes with schooling but it is also a one year probation. All of our apprentice programs were intended for a young person just getting into the workplace, come out of high school and into the trades. In some respects we have not grown out of that old mentality. The current reality is that many kids go to college, burn up those years, create a pile of debt and then when they decide to enter the workforce they need more than apprentice pay. It is part of a larger set of issues, the lack of middle class jobs is driving the older workforce into starter jobs, the older workforce is driving young folks out of work, moving from a manufacturing economy to a service economy, shouldering the economy with massive unnecessary student loan debt. In those other issues the last remaining middle class jobs have not been as spry about adapting as they should have been, which is where the union are right now - trying to preserve a set of methods that may or may not be appropriate to the times. All that said, it does work. Contractors want cheap first year labor, the unions want to weed out those who are not capable. By third/fourth year most locals are paying apprentices packages comparable to non union journeyman and these apprentices are likely to spend decades in the trade, having already received years of training and classroom education. Your point is valid, that is a cheap starting wage for an organization that prides itself on ensuring good compensation for it's commodity...but it is not the entire story.


Well said.


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## Black Dog

Quijibo said:


> 1st year apprentices make $18 and change in the pocket.
> 
> ~103 Journeyman


Nice, I made $1.60 an hour my first year:laughing:


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## Wirenuting

Black Dog said:


> Nice, I made $1.60 an hour my first year:laughing:


You dog, I knew you were "rich".
With your $ I would burn mine.


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## Black Dog

Wirenuting said:


> You dog, I knew you were "rich".
> With your $ I would burn mine.


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...hanging-out-of-windows-in-pictures?CMP=twt_gu


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## Wirenuting

Black Dog said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...hanging-out-of-windows-in-pictures?CMP=twt_gu



:thumbup:


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## LGLS

xebo said:


> Justify it however you want, but part of growing up is learning to not sacrifice your present for your future.


Where on earth did you learn that? Sacrificing today for a better tomorrow is some of the best stuff that made America great. Don't you think a businessman, like a contractor just starting out is sacrificing today for a better future? Don't you think going to college for 4 years, getting into debt, is sacrificing for a better future? How about just saving money for retirement or investing? Isn't that sacrificing today for a better tomorrow?



> Living in poverty (Which $11/hr will buy you in NYC) is poverty. Complete poverty. And anyone that subjects themselves to that lifestyle is very, very desperate. Taking advantage of that desperation because of supply/demand is messed up.


 LU 3 apprentices aren't living in poverty. Most of them are living with their parents. In addition to their wage, their Social Security contribution is matched, and they're covered under medical and are earning a pension.



> the fact that UNION MEMBERS are making this argument is flat out hilarious. You do realize that was the exact mentality of big business before the labor class unionized right? The exact reason why the union was formed was to PREVENT working class men from living in poverty, and yet that's exactly what they seem to be doing with their apprentices.


 One problem with your analogy is that a 1st year apprentice is not quite a "working class man." By the time the apprenticeship is over, more than 50% will either fail the program, been thrown out for anything from failing drug tests to failing school to absenteeism and lateness, or left on their own for whatever personal reasons. 

During the boom in the 90's apprentices left to get laborer's cards and "double" their pay. Unfortunately, now they're stuck making laborer's wages because they didn't want to "sacrifice today for a better tomorrow." 

There's no question our program is not compatible with someone with heavy financial obligations and a family to support. But the reality is we're competing with nonunion contractors who are paying one lead guy 25 bucks an hour with NO benefits or pension, and entire crews of labor who will NEVER advance beyond 10.00 bucks an hour. 

On a personal level, you seem so be fighting for your financial survival and hope to achieve, or maintain a comfortable lifestyle.

So are we.


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## Wiresmith

IslandGuy said:


> Where on earth did you learn that? Sacrificing today for a better tomorrow is some of the best stuff that made America great. Don't you think a businessman, like a contractor just starting out is sacrificing today for a better future? Don't you think going to college for 4 years, getting into debt, is sacrificing for a better future? How about just saving money for retirement or investing? Isn't that sacrificing today for a better tomorrow?
> 
> LU 3 apprentices aren't living in poverty. Most of them are living with their parents. In addition to their wage, their Social Security contribution is matched, and they're covered under medical and are earning a pension.
> 
> 
> 
> One problem with your analogy is that a 1st year apprentice is not quite a "working class man." By the time the apprenticeship is over, more than 50% will either fail the program, been thrown out for anything from failing drug tests to failing school to absenteeism and lateness, or left on their own for whatever personal reasons.
> 
> During the boom in the 90's apprentices left to get laborer's cards and "double" their pay. Unfortunately, now they're stuck making laborer's wages because they didn't want to "sacrifice today for a better tomorrow."
> 
> There's no question our program is not compatible with someone with heavy financial obligations and a family to support. But the reality is we're competing with nonunion contractors who are paying one lead guy 25 bucks an hour with NO benefits or pension, and entire crews of labor who will NEVER advance beyond 10.00 bucks an hour.
> 
> On a personal level, you seem so be fighting for your financial survival and hope to achieve, or maintain a comfortable lifestyle.
> 
> So are we.


 
that seems like a union slug thing to say. keep your wages high by the backs of UNION apprentices?


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## FrunkSlammer

Yeah that's how life in business works.. 

The manager at McDonalds makes more money than the cashier. The cashier needs to learn a lot to become the Master of the Big Mac.

Want to learn something? Start at the beginning like everyone else ever has.


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## Wiresmith

I am glad I am not the one to bring this topic up, I am pushing for raising 1st and 2nd year apprenticeship wages in our local. The members wonder why we only get 15 applications a year but yet apprentices start out at $10 an hour and pay $1/hour for there training (unbelievable). I believe this has led to the downfall of our trade unions. It is simple business, the lower starting wages you pay, the smaller and lower grade labor pool you will have to choose from. 

The current and past trend has led to lazy unskilled journeyman with bad attitudes and a declining market share.

Something related to this as well is the cw/ce bull**** agreement. Who voted to let electricians work for less? you think you will still be able to make $35/hr after you voted for UNION electricians to make $12/hr?


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## Wiresmith

IslandGuy said:


> There's no question our program is not compatible with someone with heavy financial obligations and a family to support. But the reality is we're competing with nonunion contractors who are paying one lead guy 25 bucks an hour with NO benefits or pension, and entire crews of labor who will NEVER advance beyond 10.00 bucks an hour.
> 
> 
> So are we.


 
your solution to competing with low non-union labor rates is to exploit people that want to be UNION?

How about raising the skill level of UNION workers

would you argue with me about how 60% of apprentices do the same work as 60% of journeyman?

From my experience 60%(that's a generous number) of journeyman are wire pulling conduit benders. that's it.


i'll quit ranting


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## FrunkSlammer

My wife works in a hospital as an ER nurse.. Nurses do waaaay more work than doctors, yet doctors make waaaaay more money than nurses.

We institute communism and everyone will get paid the same wage. That would be fair. Then new electrical apprentices will get the same allotment of bread, eggs and milk each week as a 30 year veteran electrician.


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> My wife works in a hospital as an ER nurse.. Nurses do waaaay more work than doctors, yet doctors make waaaaay more money than nurses.
> 
> We institute communism and everyone will get paid the same wage. That would be fair. Then new electrical apprentices will get the same allotment of bread, eggs and milk each week as a 30 year veteran electrician.


I am not saying they do more or the same amount of work but different jobs I am saying they do the same EXACT work and same amount for less!


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## FrunkSlammer

Yes and a resident surgeon makes significantly less during their 5 year residency program, than a surgeon with the doctor credential, even though they are doing the exact same work. 

You make less while learning/training, that's just how it works in the world. Again, except perhaps communist countries.


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> Yes and a resident surgeon makes significantly less during their 5 year residency program, than a surgeon with the doctor credential, even though they are doing the exact same work.
> 
> You make less while learning/training, that's just how it works in the world. Again, except perhaps communist countries.


 
I want to first say thank you for participating in this discussion, I appreciate it.


Now, we are not f***** surgeons, like I said before 60% of journeyman run round metal tubing and then pull copper through it. In my opinion (to use your earlier analogy) not much more complicated than running a cash register at McDonalds.

I appreciate any response


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## Wiresmith

if a local had a half a** apprenticeship program any 2nd year apprentice should be able to do what 60% of journeyman do now with no supervision.


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## FrunkSlammer

You are giving surgeons too much credit and electricians too little credit.

Though our job descriptions are different and skill sets differ.. the training regime is much the same in my opinion. You learn and get paid considerably less than you will when you have mastered the profession to the governmental or institutional standard. 

Until you pass the final skill testing question and get your fancy certificate, you are not that professional, you are a trainee. It's a different level of position, regardless of if the day to day tasks wind up being similar as the accredited position, and therefore demands a different level of pay scale.

(IMO)


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## Wiresmith

how to run conduit and pull wire


chapter 1 of 1(which too many journeyman don't follow)


-know multipliers

-use foot pressure on hand bender

-push lever on 854 when bending emt

-keep the bubble between the lines

-righty tighty lefty loosey

-label the wire reels

-make-up a head

-stretch the tape



surgery takes a little more training


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> You are giving surgeons too much credit and electricians too little credit.
> 
> Though our job descriptions are different and skill sets differ.. the training regime is much the same in my opinion. You learn and get paid considerably less than you will when you have mastered the profession to the governmental or institutional standard.
> 
> Until you pass the final skill testing question and get your fancy certificate, you are not that professional, you are a trainee. It's a different level of position, regardless of if the day to day tasks wind up being similar as the accredited position, and therefore demands a different level of pay scale.
> 
> (IMO)


 
the union is the body that decides on the amount of training before you get your certificate


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## Wiresmith

I would agree with you if 60% of journeyman could do what the ibew apprenticeship training includes. but they can't and that's why we are only competing by exploiting people who desire to work union, when we get to the point where 60%of journeymen are as skilled as they are paid I would be the first one to defend the dramatic pay inequality


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## FrunkSlammer

Yeah that's why I'm saying governmental or institutional standard.. in Canada you gotta pass a governmental exam to get your red seal certificate and certificate of qualification. 

So you think apprentice electricians should get paid more, or about the same as journeyman electricians because the job is really simple and a monkey could do it. If it was a much harder training program, then you agree that they should get paid less because it's much harder and not much easier. 

Trying to follow the logic on how they differ so greatly and therefore the pay scales should differ so greatly as well.


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## FrunkSlammer

So union electricians are incompetent and should therefore be paid the same as apprentice union electricians, because their skill sets and knowledge are basically the same.

So really union master electricians should just drop down to $11/hr? In that case apprentice electricians should start at about $3-4/hr.


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## Wiresmith

we will hopefully become a skilled trades union again one day but in the mean time how about we treat people that want to work union with a little decency, and try to recruit higher grade candidates to pay for our pensions when we retire.

again, I appreciate your response.


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## xebo

I'm not siding with either party here, but I don't think I've heard a single rational comment from you, Frunk. There's such a thing as a grey area. It's not like "OH APPRENTICES SHOULD BE PAID THE EXACT SAME THING AS MASTERS HUH? OR MAYBE WE SHOULD ALL BE PAID $2/hour".

Just stop


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> So union electricians are incompetent and should therefore be paid the same as apprentice union electricians, because their skill sets and knowledge are basically the same.
> 
> So really union master electricians should just drop down to $11/hr? In that case apprentice electricians should start at about $3-4/hr.


 
no, I believe master electricians are usually underpaid, the few that there are. but I think apprentices should start out at 15 minimum nationwide


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## Wiresmith

xebo said:


> I'm not siding with either party here, but I don't think I've heard a single rational comment from you, Frunk. There's such a thing as a grey area. It's not like "OH APPRENTICES SHOULD BE PAID THE EXACT SAME THING AS MASTERS HUH? OR MAYBE WE SHOULD ALL BE PAID $2/hour".
> 
> Just stop


I appreciate your responses frunk, this is similar to the arguments I get where I am from. please continue if you want


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> Yeah that's why I'm saying governmental or institutional standard.. in Canada you gotta pass a governmental exam to get your red seal certificate and certificate of qualification.
> 
> So you think apprentice electricians should get paid more, or about the same as journeyman electricians because the job is really simple and a monkey could do it. If it was a much harder training program, then you agree that they should get paid less because it's much harder and not much easier.
> 
> Trying to follow the logic on how they differ so greatly and therefore the pay scales should differ so greatly as well.


 
is that red seal certificate for electricians? the u.s. government has no national standard, we let amish do electric work


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## FrunkSlammer

It's the typical "I don't like what you're saying because it's ringing true, so stop talking!" 

I agree.. ~$15/hr is about a fair starting wage for a new apprentice electrician with ~$2.50/hr raises every 6 months. Obviously the exact amounts will vary city to city and state to state.

Are we quibbling over the dollar amounts or the concept of an 4-5 year training apprenticeship? I'm not sure now.



hd13 said:


> is that red seal certificate for electricians? the u.s. government has no national standard, we let amish do electric work


Yeah it's a standard for training for most skilled trades.. at the end you are a Red Seal __(Whatever)_____ and can work across the country, with other jurisdictions and employers knowing you have met a minimum standard of qualification.


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## Wiresmith

FrunkSlammer said:


> It's the typical "I don't like what you're saying because it's ringing true, so stop talking!"
> 
> I agree.. ~$15/hr is about a fair starting wage for a new apprentice electrician with ~$2.50/hr raises every 6 months. Obviously the exact amounts will vary city to city and state to state.
> 
> Are we quibbling over the dollar amounts or the concept of an 4-5 year training apprenticeship? I'm not sure now.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah it's a standard for training for most skilled trades.. at the end you are a Red Seal __(Whatever)_____ and can work across the country, with other jurisdictions and employers knowing you have met a minimum standard of qualification.


I am quibbling purely over dollar amounts. (right now)


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## FrunkSlammer

Oh! I was arguing the concept of an apprenticeship. There in lies our confusion.

Yeah the actual amounts are a definitely topic of debate.. it will be some ratio of demand and local rates for other jobs.

Where I live (Vancouver, Canada) electricians make peanuts and apprentices make a fraction of peanuts.. yet you go to the oil patch and electricians make lots of peanuts and apprentices make a fraction of lots of peanuts!

I think everyone should get a raise.. apprentices, master electricians, mcdonalds managers and cashiers. EVERYBODY! None of us make enough money and the fat cats and 1%er's are just making more and more every year.. while we make less.

Perhaps there we can agree.


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## Wiresmith

when I say 60% of journeyman are wire pulling conduit benders, I don't mean that's all the IBEW wireman do, but that 60% should be more skilled and if we continue this trend we will not be making much more than non-union.
we have an opportunity to have a word in this trade and if we abdicate the responsibility of maintaining OUR institution our microphone volume will be turned down.


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## LGLS

hd13 said:


> your solution to competing with low non-union labor rates is to exploit people that want to be UNION?


 Not at all. That's just one factor in an arena of a multitude of factors that brought our negotiation committee and the member contractors to agree to the wage scale we have.



> How about raising the skill level of UNION workers


 That's what we do. It's why we have always had an apprenticeship program. That's also why we have an educational and cultural fund. 



> would you argue with me about how 60% of apprentices do the same work as 60% of journeyman?


 I would, wholeheartedly. 



> From my experience 60%(that's a generous number) of journeyman are wire pulling conduit benders. that's it.
> 
> 
> i'll quit ranting


 I'm sorry for your experience.


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## Wiresmith

Glad to hear you have some good hands where your from. I see your from New York, I know you guys do have some pretty solid members I talked to them a little at an NTI. But from what I've heard local 3 was hurting pretty bad not too long ago because of lack of skills, not sure if your from local 3 or not.


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## eejack

hd13 said:


> But from what I've heard local 3 was hurting pretty bad not too long ago because of lack of skills, not sure if your from local 3 or not.


Lack of work, not a lack of skills. The midatlantic IBEW is some of the best trained highly skilled workforce around, we are just wasting away due to a very bad economy.

However, your perspective is a bit off. Your claim that a second year should be able to do 60% of what a journeyman does, then you point out that 60% of journeymen are wire pulling conduit benders.

In my thirty some odd years I have worked with lots of very skilled folks doing rather mundane work - most of what we do is mundane. Construction is rather mundane. Boring. Simple. Yet we do it. It is unusual to be on a project that is not 99% repetitive and rote.

I'm sorry your experience is so limited and frustrating, perhaps you might try expanding your horizons, travel a bit and work projects that are out of your comfort zone. Or try teaching the apprentices and fresh journeymen on your projects new things and pass along that which has been passed to you.


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## fistofbolts

Now a 4th year here. The jatc motto should be "learn while you burn" instead of "earn while you learn". The program has been nothing short of utter frustration for nearly everyone I have talked to that is in it or has been recently. You need to have tremendous outside help to be able to make it through it.
Yet there is some of us left. Waiting for the better days ahead. Just a shame to think of the many good electricians I have seen drop because they could not afford to make it, didnt have the help they needed. At least they got a few years of good training, probaly running some non-union crews right now for far less money. 
What I see happening here is apprentices are being used almost like cw's. Just a crop to collect dues and keep the pension floating temporarily. Knowing that a small percent will actually be able to stay. Maybe just a local thing. Who knows.


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## Wiresmith

fistofbolts said:


> Now a 4th year here. The jatc motto should be "learn while you burn" instead of "earn while you learn". The program has been nothing short of utter frustration for nearly everyone I have talked to that is in it or has been recently. You need to have tremendous outside help to be able to make it through it.
> Yet there is some of us left. Waiting for the better days ahead. Just a shame to think of the many good electricians I have seen drop because they could not afford to make it, didnt have the help they needed. At least they got a few years of good training, probaly running some non-union crews right now for far less money.
> What I see happening here is apprentices are being used almost like cw's. Just a crop to collect dues and keep the pension floating temporarily. Knowing that a small percent will actually be able to stay. Maybe just a local thing. Who knows.


 
I was starting to think I was on an island



its the majority of locals I have heard about, on that note I will say there are some exemplary locals out there.


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## Wiresmith

eejack said:


> Lack of work, not a lack of skills. The midatlantic IBEW is some of the best trained highly skilled workforce around, we are just wasting away due to a very bad economy.
> 
> However, your perspective is a bit off. Your claim that a second year should be able to do 60% of what a journeyman does, then you point out that 60% of journeymen are wire pulling conduit benders.
> 
> In my thirty some odd years I have worked with lots of very skilled folks doing rather mundane work - most of what we do is mundane. Construction is rather mundane. Boring. Simple. Yet we do it. It is unusual to be on a project that is not 99% repetitive and rote.
> 
> I'm sorry your experience is so limited and frustrating, perhaps you might try expanding your horizons, travel a bit and work projects that are out of your comfort zone. Or try teaching the apprentices and fresh journeymen on your projects new things and pass along that which has been passed to you.


 

I'm not saying we are know better than non-union . I am just trying to address a real issue and providing an argument against the members that say (I don't believe they really believe it) they wouldn't make that much working non-union or that's all there worth. The reason we make as much as we do is not completely because of what we do on the job, but from members fighting for the wages we have.


I believe the union could benefit by raising entry level wages slightly at least, you would acquire and retain a higher grade labor pool.

How much work would we loose by raising first and second year apprentice wages by a couple of dollars 


I will add that this does not pertain to the minority exemplary locals. But even those locals have to gain from other locals progressing.


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## Awg-Dawg

hd13 said:


> I believe the union could benefit by raising entry level wages slightly at least.


 Its entry level, wouldn't you expect to make a low wage?



hd13 said:


> you would acquire and retain a higher grade labor pool.


 
How would that make you get a better pool of workers?


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## xebo

Awg-Dawg said:


> Its entry level, wouldn't you expect to make a low wage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How would that make you get a better pool of workers?


How does offering workers a higher wage recruit better workers? It's supply and demand. If rocket scientists are being paid 50k a year by Academia, and Costco is offering 55k+bennies, you'd better believe there's going to be an influx of braniacs into the grocery industry.


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## Awg-Dawg

xebo said:


> How does offering workers a higher wage recruit better workers? It's supply and demand. If rocket scientists are being paid 50k a year by Academia, and Costco is offering 55k+bennies, you'd better believe there's going to be an influx of braniacs into the grocery industry.


 But, they are "already" rocket scientists.

The entry level guys are just guys who set off bottle rockets.


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## eejack

hd13 said:


> I'm not saying we are know better than non-union . I am just trying to address a real issue and providing an argument against the members that say (I don't believe they really believe it) they wouldn't make that much working non-union or that's all there worth. The reason we make as much as we do is not completely because of what we do on the job, but from members fighting for the wages we have.
> 
> 
> I believe the union could benefit by raising entry level wages slightly at least, you would acquire and retain a higher grade labor pool.
> 
> How much work would we loose by raising first and second year apprentice wages by a couple of dollars
> 
> 
> I will add that this does not pertain to the minority exemplary locals. But even those locals have to gain from other locals progressing.


I am not saying we know better than non union either, I am saying we pay better. 

It does not mean we pay better in every way. Apprentices may or may not get paid as well as their non union contemporaries ( honestly I have yet to see any real evidence they make less but I haven't actually looked ) but they are certainly not paid well enough if you are already older and have a family.

No starter job pays well enough if you are already older and have a family.

Most starter jobs do not come with 5 years of free education, healthcare and retirement benefits ( ignored by you in your assessment ).

We already have massive waiting lists and a very high quality pool of applicants that need to go through exams and interviews.

There is no upside to increasing apprentice wages and quite a bit of downside.


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## eejack

xebo said:


> How does offering workers a higher wage recruit better workers? It's supply and demand. If rocket scientists are being paid 50k a year by Academia, and Costco is offering 55k+bennies, you'd better believe there's going to be an influx of braniacs into the grocery industry.


Interestingly...



http://www.salary.com/dream-job-rocket-scientist/ said:


> Entry-level salaries start around $40,000, and many new recruits have at least a master's degree and often take time out for a doctorate. Salaries rise as you go up the ranks but stabilize around the $125,000 mark.


That is about $19 per hour. After paying for 4 years of college.

So if they start out at the same time...right out of high school
Joe - electrician
Bob - rocket scientist

Joe the union apprentice starting at 12 and hour and working his way up to 50 an hour in year six - making up numbers

Bob figuring a four year degree at average costs of $22,000 per year.

year one
Joe 12 * 40 * 50 = 24,000
Bob -22,000

joe 24
bob -22

year two
Joe 20 * 40 * 50 = 40,000
Bob -22,000

joe 64
bob -44

year three
Joe 30 * 40 * 45 = 54,000
Bob -22,000

joe 118
bob -66

year four
Joe 40 * 40 * 40 = 64,000
Bob -22,000

joe 182
bob -88

year five
Joe 45 * 40 * 40 = 72,000
Bob 40,000

joe 254
bob -48

year six
Joe 50 * 40 * 40 = 80,000
Bob 41,000

joe 334
bob -7

Now I realize those are made up numbers based on my local but it does not account for health benefits or scholarships etc. 

You would hope by the time they got to 40 or so years old that Bob would be rocking the pay race but in reality he has a quarter million of catch up to do.


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## Wiresmith

Awg-Dawg said:


> Its entry level, wouldn't you expect to make a low wage?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How would that make you get a better pool of workers?


 
yes, I have yet to hear anyone suggest making starting wages close to top out. but most other jobs do not start out at 50% of top out, its usually above 70%


I will say I this does not pertain to many locals but it does to the majority. my local starts out at 40% and they have to pay $1 in on top of that for apprenticeship (and that include overtime hours). I have heard many other locals have similar rates.


with the low start out wages we have now we are not competing with other professional careers, many people would rather not go to college, but only see that as a viable option to make a decent living.

let alone we have a huge cliff we are coming up to with the baby boomers retiring, lets watch our pensions in a couple of years.


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## Wiresmith

eejack said:


> Interestingly...
> 
> 
> 
> That is about $19 per hour. After paying for 4 years of college.
> 
> So if they start out at the same time...right out of high school
> Joe - electrician
> Bob - rocket scientist
> 
> Joe the union apprentice starting at 12 and hour and working his way up to 50 an hour in year six - making up numbers
> 
> Bob figuring a four year degree at average costs of $22,000 per year.
> 
> year one
> Joe 12 * 40 * 50 = 24,000
> Bob -22,000
> 
> joe 24
> bob -22
> 
> year two
> Joe 20 * 40 * 50 = 40,000
> Bob -22,000
> 
> joe 64
> bob -44
> 
> year three
> Joe 30 * 40 * 45 = 54,000
> Bob -22,000
> 
> joe 118
> bob -66
> 
> year four
> Joe 40 * 40 * 40 = 64,000
> Bob -22,000
> 
> joe 182
> bob -88
> 
> year five
> Joe 45 * 40 * 40 = 72,000
> Bob 40,000
> 
> joe 254
> bob -48
> 
> year six
> Joe 50 * 40 * 40 = 80,000
> Bob 41,000
> 
> joe 334
> bob -7
> 
> Now I realize those are made up numbers based on my local but it does not account for health benefits or scholarships etc.
> 
> You would hope by the time they got to 40 or so years old that Bob would be rocking the pay race but in reality he has a quarter million of catch up to do.


 
I don't believe I have ever heard of rocket science being a career to make a lot of money in.

anyone that could be a rocket scientist is probably going to get there education paid for

wages in professional fields increase faster than our 5 year program.


I guess I will reiterate my stance is that most locals need to slightly raise there 1st year rates to 50% in my opinion.


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## Quijibo

103 doesn't have issues finding first years... What's the problem?


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## eejack

hd13 said:


> I don't believe I have ever heard of rocket science being a career to make a lot of money in.
> 
> anyone that could be a rocket scientist is probably going to get there education paid for
> 
> wages in professional fields increase faster than our 5 year program.
> 
> 
> I guess I will reiterate my stance is that most locals need to slightly raise there 1st year rates to 50% in my opinion.


You may have whatever stance makes you happy, but you need legs under it first.

No wages increase faster than 1st year apprentice to journeyman.

Rocket scientists don't get free educations.

Most locals have large waiting lists.

I mean no offense but in this thread you make up all kinds of silly facts, please stop. If you wish for anyone to take you seriously, act seriously.


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## LGLS

hd13 said:


> I don't believe I have ever heard of rocket science being a career to make a lot of money in.
> 
> anyone that could be a rocket scientist is probably going to get there education paid for


 Believe it or not, not every student who scores perfect on their SATs and graduates at the top of their class gets a full scholarship.



> wages in professional fields increase faster than our 5 year program.


 Totally false, and irrelevant. 



> I guess I will reiterate my stance is that most locals need to slightly raise there 1st year rates to 50% in my opinion.


As many journeymen in my local will attest, the ONLY thing that keep them going to school and not getting into trouble and completing the program was the prospect of topping out.


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## Wiresmith

you guys have changed my mine, lets fight against raising there wages :thumbsupclosest thing to a solidarity fist). Power to the contractors


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## eejack

hd13 said:


> you guys have changed my mine, lets fight against raising there wages :thumbsupclosest thing to a solidarity fist). Power to the contractors


Someday I hope you get it, in the mean time I ask you to hold onto that passion, as misguided as it might be. It is a gift to be cherished and it is rare to see anymore. :thumbsup:


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## 24 big guy

Quijibo said:


> 1st year apprentices make $18 and change in the pocket.
> 
> ~103 Journeyman


Whats benefits package for journeyman

And do you have any I fo on sully mac may have opp to join


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