# Great pay and benefits 4 months out of the year!



## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

hey were non union contractors and we have had a lot of union workers apply for to our company recently. I myself think it is a terrible idea to hire an union guy into our company to many conflicts to choose from! Although we have a guy starting tomorrow who is union! We'll see how that goes!

I've heard time and time again I'm laid off for 6-8 months! why does the union always lay good guys off?

I was union for a short time and the work was scarce I decided instead of waisting my days in the hall I was going to work so I went back to the non union world and have not been laid off since.

The union has great pay and benefits but I personally would rather have lower wages and then being laid off for months at a time.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

That was and is a common sentiment for many years around here. 
Union guys made double-plus what non-unions guys made, but you had to budget your money because you would be laid off 6 mos out of the year. 
All of them did side work when laid off and under cut the legit contractors.

I just recently had this exact same discussion at the supply house with two guys I worked with many years ago. They both went union and were full fledged union cheerleaders. They made several comments and not wanting to get into it with them I simply said _"Don't get me started, I don't feel like getting into it. Let's just say I am not a fan of the union."_ I was not nasty or rude about. 

Well, they went right into defense mode. They had all the right questions and all the right answers. It's like the whole thing was scripted.
_"Have you even been in the union?", "If you haven't how do you know you don't like it?"_, etc, etc,...

Meanwhile, they just got finished saying how they have had to travel 1.5 hours (each way) to get to their last job and that that ended a few weeks ago so they have time off to do side work. That's why they were at the supply house, they even had an open account for their little side gig.

How does the union feel about their members doing side work, while undercutting legitimate contractors? I have heard it is a no-no, yet I have NEVER heard of anyone getting reprimanded for it.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Petey, I know you haven't had the best experience with Unions but for some of us it isn't the same. There are some guys that have never been laid off and other guys that haven't been laid off yearly. I have been laid off once that I hadn't planned on and that was from a contractor that I wanted to quit from but didn't want it to look bad on me. More often than not I have had an annual years hours in before the end of summer. There is good and bad in everything and the Union is no exception.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

Random, don't get me wrong. I totally understand that. It's just this has been my experience and observation from day one to today.

One of the main things that kept me from even considering the union was the travel. I saw all these guys making great money, but they were ALL leaving for work at 5am and getting home at 6:30-7pm. 
I had a non-union boss try and pull that crap with me and I told them no way. I am not volunteering 3-4 hours of MY time every day. If I wanted to I would have joined the union.

I swear, the first time I ever heard of union guys working a full year was either shop regulars (think nepotism) and many of you guys here on the boards.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> Random, don't get me wrong. I totally understand that. It's just this has been my experience and observation from day one to today.
> 
> One of the main things that kept me from even considering the union was the travel. I saw all these guys making great money, but they were ALL leaving for work at 5am and getting home at 6:30-7pm.
> I had a non-union boss try and pull that crap with me and I told them no way. I am not volunteering 3-4 hours of MY time every day. If I wanted to I would have joined the union.
> ...


 
When I commuted like that it was really on me because I choose where I lived after I had the job and knew where the work was. There were years I drove from Albany County to NYC daily, that was my doing, I was the one who moved away from the work. I never had any desire to live in NYC but liked working there.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

randomkiller said:


> When I commuted like that it was really on me because I choose where I lived after I had the job and knew where the work was. There were years I drove from Albany County to NYC daily, that was my doing, I was the one who moved away from the work. I never had any desire to live in NYC but liked working there.


EXACTLY. There are guys who can/like to do this and those that don't. 
That was always the thing. If you don't like the travel move nearer the work.
If you don't want to move then either deal with the travel or don't do the work. 'As with anything else, it's up to the individual.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

This guy who's starting tomorrow I hope he's not going to be salting my guys! 

I got a 15,000 sq. ft. home to pipe and don't need those union issues now. I don't have a problem giving a guy some hours that needs to support his family. I 've been down this road before with other union guys on our jobs, your union rules and rights don't exist on our jobs.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Speedy Petey said:


> How does the union feel about their members doing side work, while undercutting legitimate contractors? I have heard it is a no-no, yet I have NEVER heard of anyone getting reprimanded for it.


I know of one person that cost him $14k for illegal work and another that had to re-fi his house to pay the legal damages for doing illegal work. I don;t know the actual costs to him but if he had to re-fi his house, they were substantial.

calimurry; if he is a salt, he is still required to be a productive member of your team. Salting is not attempting to wobble the non-union jobs but to be close to our non-union counterparts and impart a bit of union knowledge upon them.

if he causes problems or is a slug, he is open to firing just as any other sparky.

A word of caution though; document all actions that do not meet your standards that you may use as a basis to fire the guy. It can be a touchy situation if you fire a union guy IF they are attempting to actually cause trouble. If they can convince the courts you fired him because he was a union guy, it may cost you a bit of money to get out of the situation.


and yes, I am a union guy and pro-union to the point of obsessive BUT I do not agree with underhanded tactics to injure anybody. If we demand that others play fair, then we must do the same.


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

Is it not just like non union jobs, the good guys work all the time and the crappy guys go through jobs like dirty socks? My father in law is in the carpenters union in L.A. and he is always working because (probably) he is such a dedicated, hard worker.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

calimurray said:


> hey were non union contractors and we have had a lot of union workers apply for to our company recently. I myself think it is a terrible idea to hire an union guy into our company to many conflicts to choose from! Although we have a guy starting tomorrow who is union! We'll see how that goes!
> 
> I've heard time and time again I'm laid off for 6-8 months! why does the union always lay good guys off?
> 
> ...


If I had a choice to work 6 months and earn the same amount as I would in 12 at another job, I'm working the 6 month job. I can find things to do the other 6 months like; college, another job, fishing, hunting, farming, solving the worlds problems.

If I had not been steadily employed for my tenure in the union, I would have solved the worlds problems by now but sorry to say, they have kept me busy since the beginning.

Layoffs are a part of union life for many guys. Construction has always been cyclicle although as time rolls on, it has become less so. Most all outside construction used to come to a screaching halt by November due to the weather and lack of methods to combat it. Now, it has basically been overcome and works moves forward in all but the coldest days. That is one great benefit to the union employer. He generally has a ready pool of labor to draw from as his needs increase so on the counterside, lay-offs are a natural part of the cycle. We deal with it.

Service techs and shop cats do not tend to be as affected by the general construction cycle.

So, it's not that they lay-off good guys for no reason, it is merely a function of business and the style of labor supply we have formed that causes the flow of workers to and from the hall.

What would any of you merit shop guys do if you needed 50 skilled electricians next week? (and no, this is not an unreal possibility)

The union shops call the hall and put an order in.

I presume you would start with newspaper ads, word of mouth, and a lot of worry you could not find that many guys with some experience to man your job.

am I right?


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## Bkessler (Feb 14, 2007)

OUt her in CA the last company I worked for had a core of about ten foremen running jobs (mostly schools) and we would get our "summer help" from temp agencies. Now I never really heard of a electrician staffing company when I lived in Michigan but I worked for smaller companies and we went through so many employees (we had so much work) that any one could get any person they knew hired if the chose to.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

> What would any of you merit shop guys do if you needed 50 skilled electricians next week? (and no, this is not an unreal possibility)
> 
> The union shops call the hall and put an order in.
> 
> ...


Yes nap you are right in this respect , it is hard to find several good knowledgeable and schooled electricians on demand in a non union shop, although its always seemed that everything works out any way. As a smaller shop as of now 5-15 guys each man is expected to take on a heavier workload at times we are short of workers!

The only way, is to be apart of the ABC or unionize our shop basically which has been talked about.

On the other hand depending on what state you are from the work structure is different,




> OUt her in CA the last company I worked for had a core of about ten foremen running jobs (mostly schools) and we would get our "summer help" from temp agencies.


When I lived in LA I worked for strong non union companies existing of 50 -80 guys full time , But also as of now you need to be state certified in California to work as a journeyman.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

I joined the Union with the thought of being laid off to get in some good diving and hunting time every year and I haven't been laid off for more than two weeks in the last 8 years. And I was pushing it staying out that long with the leads for interviews I was getting from my BA.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Funny looking to get laid off and cant.


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## daddymack (Jun 3, 2008)

The Union brings in far too many people in areas where they can't support them. I've been steady for a few years now but a while ago when I was off, it sucked. Many folks in my family wonder why stay with a union when there is now work? Sometimes it gets hard to defend.

Even when I was off, going non union never crossed my mind. In the end I think the union security is what kept me around. I worked non union for a few months when I was fresh out of vo-tech school. I remember A foreman walking over and telling a guy at the las tminute he had to work saturday, the guy told him he was moving. The foreman told him to move sunday and walked off. As a union member you can fight that. Even if you lose your job you keep the same pay scale and bennies.

One time my mother was very ill and I told my boss I was taking some time off to be with her. My brother or sisters could not leave their jobs just like that. This is a valuable benefit that many high paying jobs don't offer.

Out of curiosity, What is the difference in pay between union and non in your area? How do you decide how much to pay a person?


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

my wages are about 85% of union wages. I think its $38.00 an hour for a journeyman in my area I make just under that.

I provide my own medical and pension benefits, Although I wouldn't want to put the benefits in control of my employer anyway! I also get paid holidays, and vacations through my company.

Most non union shops pay on an average $18.00 an hour for a good guy, I wont accept that,most shops say why pay you more when there's a lot of guys that would be happy with $18.00 an hour.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Once again this is area dependent and job dependent, service and speciality electricians stay employed for the most part (in my experience). Construction guys will come and go, but in DC you go from one job to another as long as the economy chugs along which it has been for a while. THOUGH shaky now.


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## the_full_monty (Aug 2, 2008)

layoffs are a part of the industry. because there really is no such thing as a company guy. you may work for a contractor for 10 or 15 years but once they used you up your neck is on the line just like everyone else. Its construction if you think your above a layoff just cause you are a great "Lap tech" (ass kisser) well i feel bad for your long horrible carrier


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

the_full_monty said:


> layoffs are a part of the industry. because there really is no such thing as a company guy. you may work for a contractor for 10 or 15 years but once they used you up your neck is on the line just like everyone else. Its construction if you think your above a layoff just cause you are a great "Lap tech" (ass kisser) well i feel bad for your long horrible carrier


That seems a very positive attitude, how many times have you been laid off?

Good workers are not necessarily ass kissers, their professionals.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

I've been an electrician for 18 yrs. and believe I've had my share of lay-offs , but I can honestly say 80% of the time I got laid off was due to a poor attitude, Not very often because of lack of work. 

It wasn't until my attitude changed and i went to work to make my employer money that things changed for me. Ass kisser I am not , dedicated employee I am!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> One time my mother was very ill and I told my boss I was taking some time off to be with her. My brother or sisters could not leave their jobs just like that. This is a valuable benefit that many high paying jobs don't offer.


This is more of a boss that is an A-Hole and they exist in the union and open shop.

Union breeds as many A-holes as open shops


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## the_full_monty (Aug 2, 2008)

brian john said:


> That seems a very positive attitude, how many times have you been laid off?
> 
> Good workers are not necessarily ass kissers, their professionals.


 
i've been with the same company for 2 years but i'm no fool i know that it all comes to and end at some point. i've been laid off twice since i joined the local 4 years ago.

true good workers arn't asskissers thats why they get laid off 1st most of the time. i see it day in and day out on my job the the best workers allways get thrown under the bus by some company stooge just to save there own neck


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

the_full_monty said:


> true good workers arn't asskissers thats why they get laid off 1st most of the time.


 
Why would a boss lay off good workers and keep slackers. You have been kept, what"s that say about you.


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## splinetto (Aug 29, 2008)

Calimurray...When you go to bed tonight you better thank God for unions.....I dont know if you are trying to make yoursrelf feel better by trying to downgrade unions.....When in fact the union is better off without guys like you...


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

splinetto said:


> Calimurray...When in fact the union is better off without guys like you...


Now that is real brotherhood. This is what drives open shop guys to think negative of unions instead of slamming you should try promoting.


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## Speedy Petey (Jan 10, 2007)

splinetto, please tone it down a bit. It's posts like this that turn decent threads into pissing contests. 
Let's not go down that road.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

you're right speedy p. and thanks to "Ric" for toning ME down a few days ago. i needed and deserved it. paul


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

So anyway back tp what we were talking about. This guy started and he is pretty good and is happy to be working and I feel pretty good about having this guy work for us, how ever long it lasts. 

He says the the union is slow and he really cant wait a year for the next job he has a family you know! 

So so far so good.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

And as far as the union is concerned sounds great, Good benefit, Good pay , hey who wouldn't want that?

I don't have a problem with the Union, I have a problem certain types of electricians who think there all that! I have a problem with the attitude that some union members carry around thinking there better then you, or what ever!

I have lots of respect for some union members, I have personally worked with the best that happened to be in the union, and I have alot of friends and family who are in the IBEW.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

brian john said:


> Why would a boss lay off good workers and keep slackers. You have been kept, what"s that say about you.


Sometimes a foreskin is in so tight with the shop that he has no fear of losing his job. Because of this he will keep those that kiss his ass instead of keeping those that make the company the most profit. Have seen it time and time again. The same guy will spend $1000 in labor versus spending $50 in material since his labor is good and he gets material bonuses. But of course this is the shops fault for having this bonus in the first place.


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## headrec (Feb 25, 2008)

calimurray said:


> I don't have a problem with the Union, I have a problem certain types of electricians who think there all that! I have a problem with the attitude that some union members carry around thinking there better then you, or what ever!


Your whole thread was about how the union doesn't keep on good electricians. Almost seems to me you might have a problem with it. :tt2:

As I have read on here and witnessed 'most' of the time the good workers usually tend to stay employed while others go back to the hall. If you happen to be in one of the 'not so often times' try to plan ahead so money isn't a huge issue and use the time to get stuff done you couldn't do while working such as spending time with loved ones and getting projects worked. :yes:


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

why cant we get along?????


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## the_full_monty (Aug 2, 2008)

brian john said:


> Why would a boss lay off good workers and keep slackers. You have been kept, what"s that say about you.


I think its says that i'm an aperntice and i'm still cheap labor. I do feel that my lack of company asskissing is going to get me laid off as soon as i'm a JW


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## Charlie K (Aug 14, 2008)

My last layoff was in 83. I have worked for 4 different contractors in that time. I have missed 2 weeks in that time. 2 of those companies closed down and I had a job waiting, the other one I quit after being there 12 years. I hope to retire with the company I am with now. I have 29 pension credits so from here on out I am just letting them stack up. Some guys leave the hall on a 2 week call and stay there 20 years. Some go out on a 2 year job and last 3 weeks. Yes personalities clash and some guys dont have the patience to deal with the crap they are dealt. My advice is dont try so hard to be better than your tool buddy or somebody on the other crew. Be yourself and lighten up. Apprentices, I treat them like gold. They are my pension and the future of my local. With out them we would be no better off than the guys that dont have a pension plan or fund. Some apprentices work like journeyman in their 3rd year. Others it takes a lot longer. I worked as a GF for a long time and it was tough to pay some guys the extra 7 bucks an hour when they topped out, others it was a no brainer.

Charlie


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

IN 38 years I have missed one day. and in 38 years I cannot think of one good electrician that was let go because he was not an ass kisser. I have seen some electricians that think they are good let go because they are only good in their own head.


headrec you and surf seem to disagree.

He says good workers get canned you say they keep their jobs, which has been my expierence, good workers stay employeed.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

> =brian john;38609]IN 38 years I have missed one day. and in 38 years I cannot think on good electrician that was let go because he was not an ass kisser


dang guy, you must be ancient!!! just kidding







> headrec you and surf seem to disagree.
> 
> He says good workers get canned you say they keep their jobs, which has been my expierence, good workers stay employeed.


as somebody in this thread stated, the tech's, service guys, and others that do not do the day to day construction have more longevity in their jobs. The construction guys flow and ebb as constructions waxes and wanes.

the tech's can and often do have a career at just one contractor. In construction, there are some core guys at each contractor that may be able to do that but in most companies, outside of that core group, there is the ever changing hand from the hall fleshing out the company when they are needed.

there are some hands that just don't really want to stay with one contractor. They enjoy moving around. Other guys want to see the same faces everyday (I bet they have great marriages due to the same desire). 

the truth is; I have seen great hands in all of those situations and near worthless hands in all those situations.

generally, good hands tend to have staying power, as the business allows and poor hands tend to see the hall a lot more than the others regardless of the level of work available.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

brian john said:


> IN 38 years I have missed one day. and in 38 years I cannot think of one good electrician that was let go because he was not an ass kisser. I have seen some electricians that think they are good let go because they are only good in their own head.
> 
> 
> headrec you and surf seem to disagree.
> ...


Not all good workers get canned, but plenty do here. Part of why the union sucks here. A foremen for one company has had his shop kicked off of 5 different jobs that I know of yet he keeps his job because his brother is president of that company. They are one of the largest shops in our local too. Here the saying is It doesn't matter what you know, but who you blow!


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> But of course this is the shops fault for having this bonus in the first place


Now you are against bonuses? Boy my union guys would hang you. Take away up to 1/4 of their yearly pay.



> Here the saying is It doesn't matter what you know, but who you blow!


This saying is as old as the hills and is EVERYWHERE.

Wake up and realize everything is not union VS open shop, there are ass kissers, slackers, brown nosers, hard workers and just average guys/gals in every profession. Some of what happens is because of family as in the case you mentioned there was a time (and still happens) where in some locals you could not get in unless daddy or your uncle was a member.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

surfbh said:


> Not all good workers get canned, but plenty do here. Part of why the union sucks here. A foremen for one company has had his shop kicked off of 5 different jobs that I know of yet he keeps his job because his brother is president of that company. They are one of the largest shops in our local too. Here the saying is It doesn't matter what you know, but who you blow!


 
I can just hear you now, "honey, where are my knee pads, you know I have an interview today"


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

randomkiller said:


> I can just hear you now, "honey, where are my knee pads, you know I have an interview today"


Being in the union I don't have to go to interviews. You'd know that if you had a clue about unions other than how to destroy them from the inside. Understand Random Union Killer?


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

surfbh said:


> Being in the union I don't have to go to interviews. You'd know that if you had a clue about unions other than how to destroy them from the inside. Understand Random Union Killer?


Yeah I don't follow this. I'm going on interviews. I'm a union member and I'm not letting the hall just send me to whom happens to need another guy. I take pride in that I'm a valuable enough employee that I can pick and choose where I go within the companies that need help. If I were to get laid off, I'm calling shops and setting up interviews. I'm not working for some guy that's got a big head and a complete a-hole to be around.

Random is actually a pretty big union supporter. Come on guys, let's not attack each other personally, that solves nothing in the real of internet discussion. After all, my daddy is a bodybuilder and he'll kick your daddy's butt.


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## splinetto (Aug 29, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Yeah I don't follow this. I'm going on interviews. I'm a union member and I'm not letting the hall just send me to whom happens to need another guy.


What makes you better than the next guy at the hall? What a brother you are....


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## oldman (Mar 30, 2007)

this is a fine example of a huge problem the unions are having today...they have always butted heads with open shops (and I think the last stat out put the unions market share at around 35-40% nationwide....

but additionally, there are two unions...the shop mutts union, and the basic hall union...

until the 2 unions become 1, they will remain in trouble.


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

surfbh said:


> Being in the union I don't have to go to interviews. You'd know that if you had a clue about unions other than how to destroy them from the inside. Understand Random Union Killer?


Maybe in your neck of the woods you dont go on interviews but up in our area you sure do and that is how you get into a shop that pays well over scale and adds to the other benefits, as well as keeps you on for more than one job. And if you think Random is anti Union, son you have a serious grey matter deficit. Sit back and grow a thicker skin and a sense of humor.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

splinetto said:


> What makes you better than the next guy at the hall? What a brother you are....


I'm not saying I'm better, I'm saying I want better. My family deserves it.


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## surfbh (Jun 1, 2008)

When Random votes for the guy who fought union bosses and against the guy that is for the the employee free choice act, he is voting anti-union.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Actually he is being an opened minded individual, voting for what he feels is best. 

Funny thing about that, that is what AMERICA is about.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

surfbh said:


> When Random votes for the guy who fought union bosses and against the guy that is for the the employee free choice act, he is voting anti-union.


Random will vote for the guy that shows the most ability to uphold the Constitution of the United States and not try and change it and not the one who wants to infringe on my 2nd Amendment Rights. I was born a citizen and have no intention of ever becoming a subject. Do the math.


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## BP_redbear (Jun 22, 2008)

well put, random brother.

"From my cold, dead hands!"


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

BP_redbear said:


> well put, random brother.
> 
> "From my cold, dead hands!"


let us pray it never reaches that point.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> employee free choice act


Yeah free choice ain't all it's cracked up to be.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

This thread is pretty crazy.

A bunch IBEW members bickering at each other, sounds like high school drama! A band of over paid Brothers!

I am happy that I am not union, for many years I wanted to join but here in Chicago it's not that easy to join. Which is a bunch of crap, if the union was there to protect workers , then why cant everyone join.

Sounds like a bunch of rules and politics, it does not sound like freedom to me, It sounds like, here conform to our ways and we'll give you a sweet deal.


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## paul d. (Jul 13, 2008)

i agree somewhat CAL,but like all familys there is disaggreement and arguments. you know what happens when you get too close to family feuds , they bunch up and turn on the outsider. thats he way it should be. i'll just let em go at it. i learn something everyday from these guys too.


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

calimurray said:


> I wanted to join but here in Chicago it's not that easy to join.




a test, an interview, and a drug test. which one couldn't you pass? so so hard...


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Never was offered an interview, a test, a drug test!


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

I've submitted my transcripts 3 times , no call backs. I have went and talked to the BA and the organizer personally, he didn't help!

I've signed book 4 when work was good in 3 different locals, never got any head way. I have worked for large union shops who promised union membership I only got taken advantage of there. 

I joined local 11 and had to pay my way in , and there was no work.

You say interview ,test , drug test , oh so hard..... shut up!


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## steve134 (Apr 5, 2008)

I'm not too sure on the ways of back dooring. Though it sounds to me you have had some unsuccessful experience. 

Here's the link for registration http://www.intechonline.org/apprenticeship_programs/elec_reg_info.html . Which in fact is right around the corner. 

All these people that get in must just know someone, is the tone i sense from you. Yet myself and countless others i have met are mostly first-generation electricians, that I can assure you aren't friends of union "cronies".


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Steve;

In some locals in the past it was family or nothing.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

Come here to Charlotte, they'll beg you to join. Right now the market share for union work is around 3%. There are 500-600 union electricians and 8000-9000 non union electricians. Ohh yeah, we're also the 2nd lowest paid local in the country, but then again the cost of living is a good bit less here.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Near Elon NC I saw a house last year 275,000.00 on 1/3 acre, all brick front sides and back, 4 bed 2-1/2 bath, 2 car garage. same house here 500,000-650,000. One could take the cut in pay for that, though gas and food is close to the same not sure on taxes.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

brian john said:


> Near Elon NC I saw a house last year 275,000.00 on 1/3 acre, all brick front sides and back, 4 bed 2-1/2 bath, 2 car garage. same house here 500,000-650,000. One could take the cut in pay for that, though gas and food is close to the same not sure on taxes.


A house like that would be closer to a million in my area.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

I gave up on the union, i put myself through school, I became a licensed electrical contractor. I've put 18 years in to this trade, I refuse to take a pay cut and start out as an apprentice.

The only way at this point I am going union is if my company gets organized.

Or i move to another state.


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## gilbequick (Oct 6, 2007)

calimurray said:


> The only way at this point I am going union is if my company gets organized.


What's so "unorganized" about your company now? Do other guys in your company want to be union?


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Most likely not


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

we have a guy who is union working for us already, and my boss is to poor to join. Which i understand when I was in business for my self the contractor has to pay a lot I couldnt afford it , were a small company.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

I am getting to the point of changing careers anyway, maybe.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

calimurray said:


> I am getting to the point of changing careers anyway, maybe.


 
That statement reminds me of an old story: 

Two stock brokers were walking down Wall St. back to the office after lunch, when a naked woman came running out of an alley screaming "I'm free! , I'm free!", at which time the older broker tapped her on the arm and said "young lady, no matter how bad the market is, never give it away"


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

Good one


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## MechanicalDVR (Dec 29, 2007)

calimurray said:


> Good one


 
Too bad the Lehmann brothers didnt have that knowledge. It may have saved me a bundle.


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## calimurray (Apr 29, 2007)

that same guy we hired from the union is useless, he's been with us a couple months and he has definitely shown his true colors, I can see why the union layed him off!

He came highly recommended as a very good electrician and we have to fix everything he has done, it's like he don't care or something like he is trying to screw up! 

I yelled at him the other day and he told my boss he didn't deserve this treatment and if I continue to treat him this way he would quit! 

Well then I say if you want to be treated right , then start working harder, do a good job one that I don't have to go back and fix, stop milking the clock. And show up a little more.

Since he's been with us he has taken off 20 days, in a three month period.I know he has taken a pay cut from his normal union job which could result in a bad attitude but I think he should be grateful and do the best job he can. Cause he wont have a job with us and the union knows he is working with us and he told them to go jump supposedly.

There isn't many jobs out there right now so I think all of us that are working should be grateful and work hard cause tomorrow you may not be working!


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## Hoosier_Daddy (Aug 12, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Yeah I don't follow this. I'm going on interviews. I'm a union member and I'm not letting the hall just send me to whom happens to need another guy. I take pride in that I'm a valuable enough employee that I can pick and choose where I go within the companies that need help. If I were to get laid off, I'm calling shops and setting up interviews. I'm not working for some guy that's got a big head and a complete a-hole to be around.



I just read in another thread that you would "soon" be a member in Charlotte last March. Now here you are extolling us with how you operate within our union. I'm not all that upset with you, it's not really your fault that you're still operating with this non-union mind set. You probably don't know any better. It's the brothers in your local that allow you to do this that need to have their priorities set right. In my neck of the woods, a trip behind the wood shed would be in order.


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## randomkiller (Sep 28, 2007)

Hoosier_Daddy said:


> I just read in another thread that you would "soon" be a member in Charlotte last March. Now here you are extolling us with how you operate within our union. I'm not all that upset with you, it's not really your fault that you're still operating with this non-union mind set. You probably don't know any better. It's the brothers in your local that allow you to do this that need to have their priorities set right. In my neck of the woods, a trip behind the wood shed would be in order.


 
Gil is a regular poster here and has been for sometime, that being said I think he is entitled to his opinion and it should be left at that. As for "new" posters that their first post is intended to stir the pot, bring animosity and an argument, I wouldn't mind taking them out for a walk in the woods. This has been a great site to learn from and blow off some steam with our contemporaries, let's ALL keep it that way and enjoy our time spent here. Enough of the inflammatory BS.


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## Hoosier_Daddy (Aug 12, 2008)

He is indeed entitled to his own opinion. It's just a shame that he hasn't been taught by the local that brought him in the back door, how we do business in the brotherhood. I would suspect that the other members of his local won't take kindly to his opinion on how a referral procedure should be run. 

He says his family deserves better, but what more does his family deserve than another man's does not. Subverting the referral procedure is a direct violation of The IBEW Constitution, Article XXV(g), and a chargeable offense.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

Hoosier_Daddy said:


> He is indeed entitled to his own opinion. It's just a shame that he hasn't been taught by the local that brought him in the back door, how we do business in the brotherhood. I would suspect that the other members of his local won't take kindly to his opinion on how a referral procedure should be run.
> 
> He says his family deserves better, but what more does his family deserve than another man's does not. Subverting the referral procedure is a direct violation of The IBEW Constitution, Article XXV(g), and a chargeable offense.



Sorry BRO, but I am not sitting waiting for a hall referral system that under the best circumstances can be skewed. I would be trying to work and feed my family.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Gil,
What local do you belong to? In NY you can not just call a contractor and set up an interview. all hiring is supposed to go throught the hall. I was just curious as to if this the same process in your local.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Control Freak said:


> Gil,
> What local do you belong to? In NY you can not just call a contractor and set up an interview. all hiring is supposed to go throught the hall. I was just curious as to if this the same process in your local.


It is in mine. Doing the call the other guys yourself puts you in jeopardy of charges and fines. 

most guys have found ways to skirt around this rule but it is the rule, none the less.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> What's so "unorganized" about your company now? Do other guys in your company want to be union?


May be late, but the term "organized" is used in reference to a non-union electrician or contractor becoming union. Most often the "organized" label is applied to Journeyman electricians who are in the union, but did not go through the union apprenticeship program. If you did not go through the apprenticeship program, but then join the union based on your hours/certification, you would be "organized in".


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

gilbequick said:


> Yeah I don't follow this. I'm going on interviews. I'm a union member and I'm not letting the hall just send me to whom happens to need another guy. I take pride in that I'm a valuable enough employee that I can pick and choose where I go within the companies that need help. If I were to get laid off, I'm calling shops and setting up interviews.


Let me get this straight. You swore into a brotherhood, knowing all of it's policies and procedures. Am I correct so far?

Now, let's say you are laid off. You would call up other union shops and start setting up and going out on interviews, effectively cutting the legs out from underneath all of your fellow brothers. All this, in the brotherhood which you sought membership and swore yourself into?

I just want to get this straight before I start forming my opinion about people like you. :no:


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## Hoosier_Daddy (Aug 12, 2008)

brian john said:


> Sorry BRO, but I am not sitting waiting for a hall referral system that under the best circumstances can be skewed. I would be trying to work and feed my family.


You're under the impression that all halls in the IBEW have long lists of men waiting to get a call. While that can be true in many locals, it's not true in all of them. My local, for example, has enjoyed near full employment for a large number of years. It's a benefit to myself and my family to know that if I feel the conditions on one job, or with one contractor aren't in line with what I feel is appropriate, I have only to drag up, sign the book, and within days have my pick of jobs to go to. Don't get me wrong though. There have been a few lean years where I've had to travel. But it was in those years that I learned things, and saw things that I would have never seen by staying in my own local. I've had the opportunity to work on a job with over 3,000 wireman. I've worked steel mills, nuclear power houses, coal burners, oil refineries, chemical plants, hydro generating plants, and many others too many to mention. I'm not pigeon holed into one particular phase of our trade. I don't wallow in the mud putting in underground for power distribution, nor do I crawl through attics on my knees like a dog to make my living. It's all about what you want to do to provide for your family. And lets just cut to the chase here. I'll top $100, 000 this year in income, not including benefits. . How well do you do working for a rat contractor? And remember that no matter what your ratty contractor tells you, their labor rates are not that far off from those used by a NECA contractor.


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## nap (Dec 26, 2007)

Hoosier_Daddy said:


> And remember that no matter what your ratty contractor tells you, their labor rates are not that far off from those used by a NECA contractor.


as a matter of practice, they are generally a couple bucks below the union wage/bene package. They do this so they can get the job and LOTS of profit in their pocket. I have no problem with an EC making money and if the non-union guys want to effectively take it out of their pockets to give it to them, that's fine. Just don;t grip about what I get paid becuae you choose to work for less.

and to support this; there is currently a guy on my job who has a brother that is a non-union EC. He said this exact thing not 3 days ago. He did work for his bro for 5 years but you do understand where he is working now, right?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

HD:

First off I am a union contractor that specializes in electrical testing, and of the 20 some employees I have better that 2/3's have been with me more than 15 years, all men all above scale and above benefits, had several men in the hospital for 7 plus weeks and neither missed a check. Christmas is coming and they will get substantial bonuses and additional time off outside the Union holidays additionally they receive vacation based on time with the company paid for by me not through or mandated by the local.

I have stated many times here I am a union contractor because it benefits my employees, there are few benefits for me in this. But all my employees were MY hires, my decisions.

So take you rat comments and put them where they belong in the mind set of an "ORGANIZED MAN" that does nothing that I can see but try to stir the pot. If more union members treated open shop men better there would be less animosity and maybe we MIGHT be able to persuade them to join, which would benefit us all.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

*Brian John's shop*

We need more contractors like Brian John. But we also need to be more like Brian John's electricians.

Its not a zero-sum game, there's more pie for all of us.

Electricians, on both sides, go to work to get paid, end of story. Non-union guys say that the union guys make more but work less per year. Union guys say that non-union guys make less per hour but get paid more often.

What we DO know is that good electricians make more, and get paid more often, Whichever side you are on.


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## Control Freak (Mar 8, 2008)

Brian i have to applaud your tact and also for providing your workers with great union benefits. I have been reading the posts on this site for about a year now and have just started posting myself. There are a select few that stir the pot and they know who they are. If we all concerned ouselves with making sure that electrical work were performed safely by Americans in America instead of "non-union vs. union" we would all benefit. What do we as consumers stand to gain if goods and services are rendered cheaper to a contractor but the benefits are not passed on to us?

After all i don't care what electrican regardless of union or not gets electrocuted my heart still goes out to them. The whole point of labor unions is to spread the word about a decent standard of living and safe practices. Thats how i was brought up in a blue collar union family. the bickering gets us nowhere. I look to gain technical knowledge from any sources I can. no method is the best. it is all about what works for you.


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## wirehaired (Apr 4, 2008)

brian john said:


> HD:
> 
> First off I am a union contractor that specializes in electrical testing, and of the 20 some employees I have better that 2/3's have been with me more than 15 years, all men all above scale and above benefits, had several men in the hospital for 7 plus weeks and neither missed a check. Christmas is coming and they will get substantial bonuses and additional time off outside the Union holidays additionally they receive vacation based on time with the company paid for by me not through or mandated by the local.
> 
> ...


Sounds good where do I sign up? Oh yeah........I tried and treated me like a criminal at the e-board meeting, am I too qualified with 5 year jatc apprenticeship, a master license and 4 year college degree. If i sound bitter I am, used to be pro union, but I have seen the light of the buddyhood. ......... just relaying my experience. 
P.S I have had 3 calls from union electricians, (lu 3 & 400 & 269) looking for work last week and I have no help wanted advertisments.


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## miller_elex (Jan 25, 2008)

wirehaired said:


> If i sound bitter I am, used to be pro union, but I have seen the light of the buddyhood. ......... just relaying my experience.
> P.S I have had 3 calls from union electricians, (lu 3 & 400 & 269) looking for work last week and I have no help wanted advertisments.


I feel the same way, that's why I am glad to work for a sweat-shop where the hall hands avoid taking their calls. 

Last time it was tough around here the union guys came to the shop I worked for. They said to take any stickers off your car and tint your windows, that way those hall guys who get a bunch of W2's every year don't see you driving to work and turn you in. They also told me they couldn't take the union politics. Well, I know where the money is better, and I can tolerate the politics, so I joined up and have honestly been happy ever since. There are tons of organized hands here, and they do have a good reputation. Its an Oregon thing, everyone is required to be an apprentice, and the standards are high on both sides. Its a win / win, but I know Oregon is unique and the rest of the country doesn't work that way. 

Anyways, I'm related on both sides of the family, so nothing matters to me except being an electrician, end of story.


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## jbberns (Jan 14, 2009)

The Union doesn't lay workers off. The contractor does. The Union is the electrical workers. Work around here gets slow and you go to another contractor, or travel to another local. A lot of backstabbing can go on and that's why good guys can get laid off.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

jbberns said:


> The Union doesn't lay workers off. The contractor does. The Union is the electrical workers. Work around here gets slow and you go to another contractor, or travel to another local. A lot of backstabbing can go on and that's why good guys can get laid off.


I've
Been
Every
Where


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## splitphase (Jan 8, 2009)

Good guys get laid off because they refuse to suck ****. Even though the American way is to lie, cheat, and steal, there are a few good men that still have morals, and refuse to work overtime for regular scale, have a break, and eat lunch at 12, etc., and refuse to crap their pants and go into a frensy when the super from the company shows up on the job and starts yelling and screaming at everyone. The other guys are scrambling like headless chickens... Scared to death.


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## Melissa809 (Aug 28, 2008)

Some of you guys sound like the TYPICAL guys I run into in my Local......i.e...I am the WORLD'S GREATEST ELECTRICIAN..the fact is..when it comes to layoffs..yeah...if you are good you may last a few years...if you're with a huge shop..no matter how good you are...you're just a number....and if your brother isn't a business agent...the employment director....or the general foreman..oh well...

NOW I AM the world's greatest electrician...lol...for real...and have been on both sides of the fence.....used to think all the guys from the hall must just be useless...until I became one of those guys..uh...girls..haha....and the fact is...the majority of guys from the hall ARE good electricians


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

Melissa809 said:


> Some of you guys sound like the TYPICAL guys I run into in my Local......i.e...I am the WORLD'S GREATEST ELECTRICIAN..the fact is..when it comes to layoffs..yeah...if you are good you may last a few years...if you're with a huge shop..no matter how good you are...you're just a number....and if your brother isn't a business agent...the employment director....or the general foreman..oh well...
> 
> NOW I AM the world's greatest electrician...lol...for real...and have been on both sides of the fence.....used to think all the guys from the hall must just be useless...until I became one of those guys..uh...girls..haha....and the fact is...the majority of guys from the hall ARE good electricians


Doesn't everyone come from the hall at some point? Unless they were grandfather'd in when a non-union shop gets organized.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

spoon said:


> Doesn't everyone come from the hall at some point? Unless they were grandfather'd in when a non-union shop gets organized.


 
Not necessarily...we hire many of our BEST men off the street doing employee searches asking open shop men and IBEW guys who they know that would fit our needs. In 25 years I have requested one man from the hall locally and quite a few on the road. I will tell you I was always nervous with hire from a hall other that our local, in every case the men we received were hard workers that busted tail and were decent at their trade.


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## Melissa809 (Aug 28, 2008)

Well yeah...in my local..we ALL originate from the hall...but depending on how long you are with one shop determines whether you are "from the hall"....which can be called a 26 weeker...or NON-BASIC....guys that have been with a shop for longer than 26 weeks are considered BASIC ..however...you really aren't truly basic until you've managed to escape a few layoffs after your 26 weeks is up

BTW...I have 5 months with my shop...coming close to my 26 weeks.....keep your fingers crossed....lol


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## knaack134 (Jan 20, 2009)

calimurray said:


> This thread is pretty crazy.
> 
> A bunch IBEW members bickering at each other, sounds like high school drama! A band of over paid Brothers!
> 
> ...


You could have walked right in, in 2005.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> Not necessarily...we hire many of our BEST men off the street doing employee searches asking open shop men and IBEW guys who they know that would fit our needs. In 25 years I have requested one man from the hall locally and quite a few on the road. I will tell you I was always nervous with hire from a hall other that our local, in every case the men we received were hard workers that busted tail and were decent at their trade.


Hmm. Well, to go along with what Melissa said, all union workers come from the hall. Generally, it is a violation of the IBEW collective bargaining agreement for union contractors to bypass the hall, and hire independently. Contractors found to be in violation of the collective bargaining agreement can be fined, or worse. The ONLY time a union contractor is legally able to hire independently is when the local hall is depleted. 

Isn't this an IBEW standard?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

spoon said:


> Hmm. Well, to go along with what Melissa said, all union workers come from the hall. Generally, it is a violation of the IBEW collective bargaining agreement for union contractors to bypass the hall, and hire independently. Contractors found to be in violation of the collective bargaining agreement can be fined, or worse. The ONLY time a union contractor is legally able to hire independently is when the local hall is depleted.
> 
> Isn't this an IBEW standard?


Well luckily I live in the UNITED STATES where freedom still reigns and I hire what I feel is best. We pay over scale and this allows us to hire our truck men. In addition I have brought many very fine men into the local. I am constantly on the look out and if I find a man I can't use that works open shop I try to refer him to the hall.

Up till the last 7 months we had 100% employment for years with many travelers here working.

We have a good local that works for the men and with the contractors, in this we/I feel fortunate.


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> Well luckily I live in the UNITED STATES where freedom still reigns and I hire what I feel is best. We pay over scale and this allows us to hire our truck men. In addition I have brought many very fine men into the local. I am constantly on the look out and if I find a man I can't use that works open shop I try to refer him to the hall.
> 
> Up till the last 7 months we had 100% employment for years with many travelers here working.
> 
> We have a good local that works for the men and with the contractors, in this we/I feel fortunate.


Last I checked, California _is_ a State of the Union. And the IBEW is _not_ a democracy.

You pay over scale, and that's great! A lot of contractors around here do as well. But to clear up any confusion, the IBEW stipulates a _minimum _pay scale, not a _mandatory _pay scale. You can pay your guys whatever you want, as long as you don't pay *less* than scale. Are all IBEW's different?

Just to get things straight, your IBEW local allows you to hire directly off the streets at all times, *or* only when the hall is depleted? You said that for the past however many years your local has had %100employment, which means if you needed a guy, you'd be forced to hire off the street, which is apparently what you've been doing this whole time. Lucky. :shifty:

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying I disagree with how you do your hiring. I'd prefer doing it the same way, unfortunately my local has a list. By circumventing that list, you'd be cutting the legs out from underneath your brothers and sisters. Isn't that the truth of the matter?


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

> Last I checked, California _is_ a State of the Union. And the IBEW is _not_ a democracy.


You better get your map out California is not part of the USA, well that is what the east coasters think and the east coast ends at the eastern border of CA.:blink:


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## spoon (Dec 9, 2008)

brian john said:


> You better get your map out California is not part of the USA, well that is what the east coasters think and the east coast ends at the eastern border of CA.:blink:


And a lot (NOT ALL) of them also think everyone who doesn't look like them is Mexican, illegal, and doesn't pay taxes! That ain't _our_ fault.


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## user8640521 (Jan 17, 2009)

brian john said:


> You better get your map out California is not part of the USA, well that is what the east coasters think and the east coast ends at the eastern border of CA.:blink:


i thought it was the mississippi river... everything beyond that was 
"***** territory"
:red_indian::red_indian::red_indian:

'n it's the "left coast". please get your terminology straight.


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## brian john (Mar 11, 2007)

spoon said:


> And a lot (NOT ALL) of them also think everyone who doesn't look like them is Mexican, illegal, and doesn't pay taxes! That ain't _our_ fault.


 
Not me and I was born west of CA? In the at that time the Territory of Alaska


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## hardworkingstiff (Jan 22, 2007)

calimurray said:


> Most non union shops pay on an average $18.00 an hour for a good guy....


Wow, I pay $15/hr for a good helper (Wilmington, NC). But alas, I've not needed one for quite a while.


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