# Luminaire in shower



## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think it's in the NEC, at least GFCI protection being required. But many AHJs around here have adopted such an amendment so I routinely protect 'em anyway.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

480sparky said:


> I don't think it's in the NEC, at least GFCI protection being required. But many AHJs around here have adopted such an amendment so I routinely protect 'em anyway.


Yea, I couldn't find it either.
I've put up several can lights in showers. They are listed and sealed units. It's kinda weird the NEC hasn't addressed this. You'd think it would be a req.


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## thegoldenboy (Aug 15, 2010)

Is it in the paperwork from the manufacturer? Could fall under 110.3(B) if so. I don't have my book or the ambition to search through it.


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## yankeewired (Jul 3, 2008)

No, it is not required *unless* it is in manufacturers instructions. Usually we use 
recessed housing with a "shower" trim which is just an enclosed trim suitable for a wet location as it is subject to shower spray . These recessed installations are not required and we do not install GFI protection. Some customers ask for an exhaust fan with light on it to be mounted in the shower . If you look at the installation instructions ( usually there is a sticker or label on the fan/light housing as well) It will state something like this " suitable for use in a shower if protected by GFI. Now in this case you must follow these instructions per NEC .


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

yankeewired said:


> No, it is not required unless it is in manufacturers instructions. Usually we use
> recessed housing with a "shower" trim which is just an enclosed trim suitable for a wet location as it is subject to shower spray . These recessed installations are not required and we do not install GFI protection. Some customers ask for an exhaust fan with light on it to be mounted in the shower . If you look at the installation instructions ( usually there is a sticker or label on the fan/light housing as well) It will state something like this " suitable for use in a shower if protected by GFI. Now in this case you must follow these instructions per NEC .


Wow. Never looked in the instructions. 
Got a code reference saying to look in the instructions?


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Wow. Never looked in the instructions.
> Got a code reference saying to look in the instructions?


110.3(b).


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

480sparky said:


> I don't think it's in the NEC, at least GFCI protection being required. But many AHJs around here have adopted such an amendment so I routinely protect 'em anyway.


I agree, I hit the receptacle first then the lights so I can cover the shower can. Also the vanity light gets its power before the GFCI because they share the same 2 gang box. That way you aren't in the dark after a trip.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

I usually hit the a gfi outside the bath with power then jump out to the switch box in the bath with a piece of 14/2/2. This gives me protected and unprotected power in the bathroom. You could also bring power straight to your switch box then run a piece of 14/2/2 to the gfi.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> I usually hit the a gfi outside the bath with power then jump out to the switch box in the bath with a piece of 14/2/2. This gives me protected and unprotected power in the bathroom. You could also bring power straight to your switch box then run a piece of 14/2/2 to the gfi.


How are you running 14 wire? Is this a separate gfi receptacle from the bathroom circuit?

Nevermind I see you said outside the bathroom


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

14/2/2?

What's that?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> 14/2/2?
> 
> What's that?


Single cable assembly with 2 blacks and 2 whites ...like 14/3 ~ but different :thumbsup:

http://www.southwire.com/news-media/4conductorNMcable.htm


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Celtic said:


> Single cable assembly with 2 blacks and 2 whites ...like 14/3 ~ but different :thumbsup:
> 
> http://www.southwire.com/news-media/4conductorNMcable.htm


Cool, didn't know about that. Got it in 12, I assume?


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Cool, didn't know about that. Got it in 12, I assume?


Yup..14...12....and 10
Romex® SIMpull® Type NM-B [pdf]


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Cool, didn't know about that. Got it in 12, I assume?


Yeah they make it in 12. We use it all time. Works great in additions when home runs are an issue. Plus unlike 14/3 it has 2 neutrals so its easier to put on an afci breaker when required. It actually has a black and red and a white and white with red stripe. It also helps when you have to have a dead end three way but current code requires a neutral at every switch I just run 14/2/2. 12/2/2 is great for the kitchen counter home runs.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

When using xx/2/2 box fill can easily become an issue.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> Yeah they make it in 12. We use it all time. Works great in additions when home runs are an issue. Plus unlike 14/3 it has 2 neutrals so its easier to put on an afci breaker when required. It actually has a black and red and a white and white with red stripe. It also helps when you have to have a dead end three way but current code requires a neutral at every switch I just run 14/2/2. 12/2/2 is great for the kitchen counter home runs.


Sweet. Gotta get some. What else y'all use it for?
12 is smallest I go.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> 12 is smallest I go.


Why?


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## HARRY304E (Sep 15, 2010)

Celtic said:


> Why?


Too much time doing commercial work.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

HARRY304E said:


> Too much time doing commercial work.


Harry,
I think you hit it in the head. 
I started out doing heavy commercial/industrial
And have been doing residential for 10 years or so. 
Don't know why, but in my entire career, I just can't bring myself to buy a roll of 14.


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## electricmanscott (Feb 11, 2010)

sparky723 said:


> Harry,
> I think you hit it in the head.
> I started out doing heavy commercial/industrial
> And have been doing residential for 10 years or so.
> Don't know why, but in my entire career, I just can't bring myself to buy a roll of 14.


Try it, you'll be kicking yourself for unnecessarily wasting money and making things harder than they need to be.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

electricmanscott said:


> Try it, you'll be kicking yourself for unnecessarily wasting money and making things harder than they need to be.


Lol. We'll see.


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Sweet. Gotta get some. What else y'all use it for?
> 12 is smallest I go.


If you install a bath room fan/light/heater it needs three switched hots and a neutral. It works great for that. Sure beats running a 12/2 & 12/3 to it.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

backstay said:


> If you install a bath room fan/light/heater it needs three switched hots and a neutral. It works great for that. Sure beats running a 12/2 & 12/3 to it.


Great idea. Just had that happen about 2 weeks ago. Could've defiantly used it..!


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> If you install a bath room fan/light/heater it needs three switched hots and a neutral. It works great for that. Sure beats running a 12/2 & 12/3 to it.


There's a difference between 1x/2/2 and 1x/4.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> I started out doing heavy commercial/industrial
> And have been doing residential for 10 years or so.
> Don't know why, but in my entire career, I just can't bring myself to buy a roll of 14.


I understand....but when you do the math [COG, code-wise, labor units, etc] on it, it really isn't that bad to use 14 in resi. - in fact, you might even land more work.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Celtic said:


> I understand....but when you do the math [COG, code-wise, labor units, etc] on it, it really isn't that bad to use 14 in resi. - in fact, you might even land more work.


I hear ya, hard to change-that's all


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> I hear ya, hard to change-that's all


I had to go a few rounds with these guys before it finally made sense to me to use something other than #12.

You can go the easy route [trust me :thumbsup:]...

or the rough route [follow in my footsteps







]

...you decide :laughing:


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Celtic said:


> I had to go a few rounds with these guys before it finally made sense to me to use something other than #12.
> 
> You can go the easy route [trust me :thumbsup:]...
> 
> ...


Lol. 
I'd probably only use it for switch legs, I mean it is only good for 15A. Can't think of anything else really to use it for; and if just barely gonna use it, I'd hate having to lug around 2 diff. size rolls of NM.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> Lol.
> I'd probably only use it for switch legs, I mean it is only good for 15A. Can't think of anything else really to use it for; and if just barely gonna use it, I'd hate having to lug around 2 diff. size rolls of NM.


You'll learn. Once you see the money you can save. For me 12 is only used for kitchens, bath gfi, laundry, DR, garage and anything that specifically requires a 20 amp circuit. All lighting and bedrooms and general areas get 14 wire.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Lol.
> I'd probably only use it for switch legs, I mean it is only good for 15A. Can't think of anything else really to use it for; and if just barely gonna use it, I'd hate having to lug around 2 diff. size rolls of NM.


Considering the sheath is now color coded, different size wire should be a non-issue - lugging 14 is easier than 12...obviously, its lighter:jester:...consider box fill, termination speed, etc...

There are very few places in a home where 12 is actually a requirement...SABC, Bath, etc..the general purpose lighting and devices, etc is all 14 ~ thats the bulk of the work.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You'll learn. Once you see the money you can save. For me 12 is only used for kitchens, bath gfi, laundry, DR, garage and anything that specifically requires a 20 amp circuit. All lighting and bedrooms and general areas get 14 wire.


I hear ya


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Lol.
> I'd probably only use it for switch legs, I mean it is only good for 15A. Can't think of anything else really to use it for; and if just barely gonna use it,...


Wait...... you'd use 14/2 for switch legs on 20a circuits? 




sparky723 said:


> .....I'd hate having to lug around 2 diff. size rolls of NM.


Yeah, lugging around 12/2 *AND* 12/3 is kinda of pain.


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## manchestersparky (Mar 25, 2007)

sparky723 said:


> Yea, I couldn't find it either.
> I've put up several can lights in showers. They are listed and sealed units. It's kinda weird the NEC hasn't addressed this. You'd think it would be a req.


Give it time - they will

In the 2014 I believe the washing machine receptacle may be required to be GFCI


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

manchestersparky said:


> Give it time - they will


why?
do people typically relamp while showering?


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

480sparky said:


> Wait...... you'd use 14/2 for switch legs on 20a circuits?
> 
> 
> Yeah, lugging around 12/2 AND 12/3 is kinda of pain.


Yep

Then add 14 on top of that... Lol


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

I was taught to run 12 for outlets and 14 for lighting. Reason being that the 12 can supply more outlets. This meant less home runs and less breakers. It still makes sense to me since 12 is about $100 and 14 is about $75. thats a 25% difference. Am I missing something in the math here? I don't see how using 14 is cheaper unless you're keeping your circuits the same size.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

Toto said:


> I was taught to run 12 for outlets and 14 for lighting. Reason being that the 12 can supply more outlets. This meant less home runs and less breakers. It still makes sense to me since 12 is about $100 and 14 is about $75. thats a 25% difference. Am I missing something in the math here? I don't see how using 14 is cheaper unless you're keeping your circuits the same size.


If 12 can supply more receps, then it can also supply more lights. Why not use 12 for your lights and run fewer light circuits?

And technically, outside of your SABCs, laundry and bath receps, you can put ALL your receps on one circuit.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Toto said:


> I was taught to run 12 for outlets and 14 for lighting. Reason being that the 12 can supply more outlets. This meant less home runs and less breakers. It still makes sense to me since 12 is about $100 and 14 is about $75. thats a 25% difference. Am I missing something in the math here? I don't see how using 14 is cheaper unless you're keeping your circuits the same size.


You were taught wrong.

What is the basis for putting more recept. on a #12 circuit.

[BTW..you might want to look up what "outlet" actually means in 100]


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

Basis being 20 amps instead of 15 amps.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Toto said:


> Basis being 20 amps instead of 15 amps.



:blink:

What has that got to do with how many receptacles can be put on a residential circuit?


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## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> What has that got to do with how many receptacles can be put on a residential circuit?


Everyone knows you can put so many on a 15 amp circuit. It's right here in the NEC...it's ...somewhere...


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

backstay said:


> Everyone knows you can put so many on a 15 amp circuit. It's right here in the NEC...it's ...somewhere...



I'm not holding my breath.......


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

backstay said:


> Everyone knows you can put so many on a 15 amp circuit. It's right here in the NEC...it's ...somewhere...


You can put as many as you want as long as there not in blue boxes and the houses service isn't done with SE cable. Lol


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You can put as many as you want as long as there not in blue boxes and the houses service isn't done with SE cable. Lol



Don't forget you must use NM staples that have the little plastic strap between the nails!


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

Celtic said:


> :blink:
> 
> What has that got to do with how many receptacles can be put on a residential circuit?


I'm not being clear enough. Sorry. I'm saying that when I'm planning circuits and thinking about anticipated usage I can have less circuits with #12 than #14.


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## duque00 (Sep 11, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> You'll learn. Once you see the money you can save. For me 12 is only used for kitchens, bath gfi, laundry, DR, garage and anything that specifically requires a 20 amp circuit. All lighting and bedrooms and general areas get 14 wire.



Kitchen - Check
Bath GFCI - Check
Laundry - Check
Garage - Check
All else that call for it - Check
DR (dining room)? - got a code reference or personal preference. I know this old timer that I work with from time to time tells me 20a for DR.

References/Experiences?

Thanks!


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

duque00 said:


> Kitchen - Check
> Bath GFCI - Check
> Laundry - Check
> Garage - Check
> ...


Use 12 on all and you're covered.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

duque00 said:


> Kitchen - Check
> Bath GFCI - Check
> Laundry - Check
> Garage - Check
> ...


Pretty sure it's 210.52. DR is required to be on a SABC. You can add it on with the 2 required ones but most of the kitchens we do are so large we just use those 2 for the countertops and run a seperate one for the dining room.


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

duque00 said:


> ......
> DR (dining room)? - got a code reference or personal preference. I know this old timer that I work with from time to time tells me 20a for DR.
> ......!


Most of us go by 210.52(B)


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Toto said:


> I'm not being clear enough. Sorry. I'm saying that when I'm planning circuits and thinking about anticipated usage I can have less circuits with #12 than #14.


Not really.

Either way you must have a minimum of 3va/sq.ft.


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

General lighting and receptacle loads

Table 220.12 in the National Electrical Code considers a residence a listed occupancy at 3 VA per square foot; therefore, the general lighting load is determined by multiplying the square footage. For example, 2,800 square feet times 3 VA is 8,400 VA. Use this total to determine the number of outlets for lighting and general-purpose receptacles. Installing a 20-amp circuit supplied by 120 volts, the 8,400 VA divided by 2,400 VA (20 A × 120 V = 2,400 VA) is 3.5, when rounded up requires four 20-amp circuits. Five 15-amp circuits would be the minimum required for a 15-amp circuit.

Not my writing above. But this sums up what I'm saying better than I can say it. In this example they would have to run 4 #12 circuits and 5 #14 circuits. Obviously distance to panel comes to mind when considering cost. But, so does AFCI cost. With #14 I would have to install an additional AFCI, and run an additional home run, and extra make up in the panel. I'm not seeing the #14 as necessarily cheeper and I'm wondering what I'm missing. If I can save money I would love to know how!


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

By the way www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standars/residential-calculations has a pretty cool article on this and covers a lot of the other topics discussed on this title. I don't know anything about their credibility, though.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

*Points were missed...*



Toto said:


> I was taught to run 12 for outlets and 14 for lighting. Reason being that the 12 can supply more outlets. This meant less home runs and less breakers. It still makes sense to me since 12 is about $100 and 14 is about $75. thats a 25% difference. Am I missing something in the math here? I don't see how using 14 is cheaper unless you're keeping your circuits the same size.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A 15A or 20A general purpose circuit in a dwelling unit has no limit to the number of recept. you can place on it [220.14(I)]






Toto said:


> I'm not being clear enough. Sorry. I'm saying that when I'm planning circuits and thinking about anticipated usage I can have less circuits with #12 than #14.
> 
> 
> Celtic said:
> ...


What _you_ "anticipate" is not actually a real number.
What is real is the 3va/sq.ft that has already been calculated for us.




Toto said:


> General lighting and receptacle loads
> 
> Table 220.12 in the National Electrical Code considers a residence a listed occupancy at 3 VA per square foot; therefore, the general lighting load is determined by multiplying the square footage. For example, 2,800 square feet times 3 VA is 8,400 VA. Use this total to determine the number of outlets for lighting and general-purpose receptacles. Installing a 20-amp circuit supplied by 120 volts, the 8,400 VA divided by 2,400 VA (20 A × 120 V = 2,400 VA) is 3.5, when rounded up requires four 20-amp circuits. Five 15-amp circuits would be the minimum required for a 15-amp circuit.
> 
> Not my writing above. But this sums up what I'm saying better than I can say it. In this example they would have to run 4 #12 circuits and 5 #14 circuits. Obviously distance to panel comes to mind when considering cost. But, so does AFCI cost. With #14 I would have to install an additional AFCI, and run an additional home run, and extra make up in the panel. I'm not seeing the #14 as necessarily cheeper and I'm wondering what I'm missing. If I can save money I would love to know how!


Your allegation that #12 NM will result in a 25% savings to install due to less circuits is erroneous:



















...almost a 50% material increase in cost/1000'...add to that handling, box fill, installation and termination labor units...










AFCI CB is $33.51

I do not see any measurable savings in using #12 over #14 in a residential setting...in fact, it will cost more to install less circuits.
Furthermore, your customers will appreciate that "additional" circuit. :thumbsup:


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## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I was taught to run #12 for receptacle circuits and #14 for lighting as well. The reasoning behind it was to allow for window air conditioners and space heaters in older houses where they aren't well insulated. A 5500 BTU window air conditioner draws about 5 amps of power, and has a decently high starting current. If you have 2 bedrooms on the same circuit, and both have their own AC (pretty common in New England), then you are talking 10a running current with both on, plus whatever lights, TVs, etc are in the room, and it can tax a 15A circuit. Same if the bedrooms each have a space heater in them in the winter time. If the house has central air or mini-splits, then that is negated, and is decently well insulated (basically anything built in the 70s or later), then it isn't a big deal to run 15A circuits for receptacles. Granted this is all based on my opinion and the instances where I have seen circuits trip because of ACs and heaters, plus the experience of the guys that taught me the trade. Yours might be completely different.

ETA: Running only #12 in a house is a waste of money and wasted effort, especially if there are can lights involved. #12 is just more effort than it is worth on lighting circuits.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Going_Commando said:


> I was taught to run #12 for receptacle circuits and #14 for lighting as well. The reasoning behind it was to allow for window air conditioners and space heaters in older houses where they aren't well insulated.


Why stop at #12...go with #10 :thumbsup:


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## electricmalone (Feb 21, 2013)

The guy who taught my Master's course was an electrical engineer who swore up and down we were all "hacks" for not running #10 home runs and then branching off with #12 only, never using #14. His reasoning was that there was a lower resistance on the #10, causing the electric meter to spin slower, "basic OHM's Law"... I asked him if a 75 watt bulb used less than 75 watts on a #10. He babbled some nonsense answer. I followed this up with asking why stop with #10 feeders, why not run 500kcmil for every 100amp service?? He said that was a great idea. I then pointed out his customers won't be his customers very long with those prices. 
Overall point - don't over think the wire, it's just wire. Give people what is required, if they want something special, charge them special.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Going_Commando said:


> ETA: Running only #12 in a house is a waste of money and wasted effort, especially if there are can lights involved. #12 is just more effort than it is worth on lighting circuits.


Much easier toting 1 roll of wire up and down out of the attic then 2 rolls. Today's demands are too great to even mess with #14. Those space heaters people like to set up are amp monsters. One size covers 75-80% of the house. It's not that much more and what difference there is in it, is made up in other ways-handling,etc. IMO.
I buy by the 250' rolls..can't swing $200-$300 for one 1000' roll of wire. Lol.


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

What _you_ "anticipate" is not actually a real number.

Maybe not but it's a real consideration. If I know specific locations that will be subject to unusually high electrical usage, then of course I'm going to take that into consideration.



Your allegation that #12 NM will result in a 25% savings to install due to less circuits is erroneous:


Didn't mean 25% savings on job. 25% on wire only. Same as you pointed out except your get your 14-2 for 60% of your #12 cost it looks like.


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## ElectricJoeNJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Toto said:


> Didn't mean 25% savings on job. 25% on wire only. Same as you pointed out except your get your 14-2 for 60% of your #12 cost it looks like.


I still don't see how you can justify a 25% savings in wire. IF you run 4 circuits in 12 that are all 200' total that's 800' you need a thousand footer for 300$ if you use 14 wire you'll need 5 circuits which would be a full 1000' for 200$. I
Dunno but my math says that's a 100$ savings


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## Toto (Jul 27, 2011)

He quoted me saying a 25% difference in price for #14 vs #12. Which is true. $14 is cheeper than #12. I was stating the reasoning for using #14 vs #12. The reason some people use #12 I already mentioned... less AFCI's, less home runs. But he also pointed out box fill which is good point (#14 can save time there), and ease of workability.

But the #14 will always be cheeper for wire.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

14/2/2 (14/4) is great for 3 ways and constants in the same run. Yet it is hard to find in these parts, I end up running two runs of 2 wire .


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## 480sparky (Sep 20, 2007)

14/2/2 and 14/4 are _not_ the same.


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## Shockdoc (Mar 4, 2010)

480sparky said:


> 14/2/2 and 14/4 are _not_ the same.


We know that, blk,wh,rd,wh/rd stp. bl,blu,rd,wh. Either way you have four conductors and can use them however you need.


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## Celtic (Nov 19, 2007)

Toto said:


> celtic said:
> 
> 
> > What _you_ "anticipate" is not actually a real number.
> ...


There is no maybe about it.
We are not talking about specific locations like the bath, dr, SABC etc....we are talking about general purpose.

What a present occupant plugs in has no bearing on a what a future occupant may or may not utilize....or even what that present occupant may or may not plug in tommorrow or even the next day.


Since you brought it up, what location exactly is/are a "specific locations that will be subject to unusually high electrical usage"?



Toto said:


> celtic said:
> 
> 
> > Your allegation that #12 NM will result in a 25% savings to install due to less circuits is erroneous:
> ...


Slice it however you want to, but the simple fact is that it is wasteful to arbitrarily wire every general purpose circuit in an entire home with #12.


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

ElectricJoeNJ said:


> I still don't see how you can justify a 25% savings in wire. IF you run 4 circuits in 12 that are all 200' total that's 800' you need a thousand footer for 300$ if you use 14 wire you'll need 5 circuits which would be a full 1000' for 200$. I
> Dunno but my math says that's a 100$ savings


$100 savings in wire, but how much in time/labor to run that extra 200' home run?
Not to mention the cost of the extra breaker.


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## Hippie (May 12, 2011)

sparky723 said:


> $100 savings in wire, but how much in time/labor to run that extra 200' home run?
> Not to mention the cost of the extra breaker.


Just as easy to pull 5 at once as 4

Cost of extra afci I justify by not having to make up 12 wire and $25/roll cost difference


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## sparky723 (Jul 22, 2008)

Hippie said:


> Just as easy to pull 5 at once as 4
> 
> Cost of extra afci I justify by not having to make up 12 wire and $25/roll cost difference


So same time is 5 rolls if wire-or 5-200'ers cut and laid out. if all going same place, that becomes a mess. 4 is better than 5 in my opinion. And That's if you can pull all 5 the full 200' at the same time.
To each his own..I'll stick with #12.


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