# Failed a state inspection



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

So, did you not put in a GFCI service?


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

This is a temporary installation and therefore is under 590.6 Which pretty much states the same thing but not for 50 AMP circuits.


Andy


----------



## SWDweller (Dec 9, 2020)

I disagree with your code section. This is a job trailer where people will be working daily. 
Ground faults are required. 

Your section 
"When construction is first started on a large site, an apartment complex for example, a temporary power pole is usually set with GFCI type receptacles to establish basic construction power " Still has the ground fault protection for personnel. 

I am reasonably sure that you will not escape ground fault protection for persons working in the area.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

A Little Short said:


> So, did you not put in a GFCI service?


Nope, not going to. State inspector is wrong.


----------



## ZacharyBob (May 3, 2020)

backstay said:


> Nope, not going to. State inspector is wrong.


So you're going to hold up a job over some GFCI devices/breakers and your pride?


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

What code cycle are you under?

Andy.


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

Around here if it’s gonna be around longer than a year temporary rules don’t apply. I once had a inspector have me drive 4 ground rods for a double wide office trailer. 2 for each side


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

$13 part, or 13 years of submitting to his endless nitpicking?

Kill these guys with kindness. Smile at him and make the changes. It absolutely crushes their souls. They *want* this reaction out of you.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Nope, not going to. State inspector is wrong.


what kind of trailer is this?
office work ? or ?
is it built like a house trailer ?
or one towed behind a pickup?


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

backstay said:


> Today I got an email from the state saying I had failed an inspection on a job trailer I installed a service to. Here is the body of the email. I removed names to protect the guilty.
> 
> 
> As a result of a recent inspection, correction(s) are required. Please see the attached Inspection Report, (Redacted)submitted by James xxxxxxxx for inspections performed on 08/17/2022. Please make the correction(s) necessary to bring the installation into compliance with the requirements.
> ...


so im gonna guess he is referring to (6) damp or wet locations .... ?


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

I’d just do it and charge the gc and say their trailer doesn’t meet code and you had to fix it


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

backstay said:


> Nope, not going to. State inspector is wrong.



He may very well be wrong but can you tell where he is wrong?

Andy.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

AndianaJones said:


> He may very well be wrong but can you tell where he is wrong?
> 
> Andy.


@backstay can you tell *US* where he is wrong ?


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

I'm not NEC so maybe I'm interpreting it wrong but doen't the intent of 590.6 pertain to receptacles that personnel would plug portable equipment in as part of their jobs? 

Not enough info provided to guess what part of 210.8 (B) might be violated.


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

590.6 pertains to construction trailers as well as any other temporary type structure.

Andy.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

And with the 2020 code does your state have any amendments?


----------



## That_Dude (Feb 13, 2012)

90.4? I'd just bite the bullet and slap the GFI in and bill accordingly.


----------



## A Little Short (Nov 11, 2010)

backstay said:


> Nope, not going to. State inspector is wrong.


I thought you saying you just put the service on and nothing inside. That why I said "GFCI service".


> I had failed an inspection on a job trailer *I installed a service to*.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Sorry I didn’t get back to this thread until now. We are having a party tomorrow for my parents 70th wedding anniversary. And I have been busy.

So, to answer your questions. It is an office trailer that gets pulled to the job site. This is a small one without an electric range, it has heat/AC and lighting. So it gets a 50 amp service just like an RV.

We are on the 2020 code with no amendments.

That little part (gfci breaker)is $130.00

Because the office trailer gets a service, the receptacle that powers it and the cord running to it aren’t branch circuits, it’s a feeder. Just like an RV, it has a service panel with OCP for its branch circuits. 210.8 is not about feeders.

I’m surprised the Canadians were hinting at that. 👍🏻 🇨🇦

So my corrective action will be to correct their knowledge of the code


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

Can't you just put in a GFCI receptacle on the most upstream outlet and call it good?

They are like $20.00.

Look, I am not trying to be an asshole here but I would like to know for my own edification, what you are going to tell them or show them how it is that you do not need to put in GFCI protection to the receptacles? What is the code article?

Andy.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

AndianaJones said:


> Can't you just put in a GFCI receptacle on the most upstream outlet and call it good?
> 
> They are like $20.00.
> 
> ...


You missed the point. I was written up for failing to GFCI protect a 50 amp receptacle that is feeding a breaker panel in an office trailer, with a code reference about branch circuits. It’s not a branch circuit, it’s a feeder. There is no code for that. If you install an RV receptacle, 30 or 50 amp, you don’t need to GFCI protect it, it’s a feeder. 210.8 is about branch circuits.


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

O.K. I think I see what you are getting at but I am imagining a weird situation where you have the breaker panel of the trailer being fed by a 50 AMP receptacle on the exterior of the trailer that is fed by a power source through a cord. That can't be right, is it?
Well, I guess if you made the cord with two male ends something like that could work. I don't know, I have never worked on RV feeders. Or hooked up to one.

Andy.


----------



## MikeFL (Apr 16, 2016)

Why state inspection and not city/ county?
State DOT project? They may have their own regulation which you are not aware of.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

ZacharyBob said:


> So you're going to hold up a job over some GFCI devices/breakers and your pride?


I see your point and partly agree but it's not just pride, it's also professional reputation. I also think you have to at least put up some resistance or there's no disincentive for the inspector to make things up as they go along. 



ohm it hertz said:


> $13 part, or 13 years of submitting to his endless nitpicking?
> 
> Kill these guys with kindness. Smile at him and make the changes. It absolutely crushes their souls. They *want* this reaction out of you.


Not all of them, I don't think. Some of them, a lot actually, are perfectly fine with a dispute as long as you're civil, respectful, and explain things clearly. Others want to fight, like you say. Others like to throw their weight around and want their edicts to supersede code like a king's edicts. 

I'd make the dispute and CC the customer, and let them know it's a $500 fix and if they dig in their heels and the customer wants to roll over in the interest of expediency, they can submit a change order. In other words, if THEY want to roll, I'll roll with them.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

We just adopted the 2020 in July with amendments. I'd have to look at the language clearly to see what's being protected. I took the code update class right before covid, hardly worked in Mass at all, so I've forgotten most of it. We also can choose which code cycle to be on for the next few months with permits so I've been doing all 2017. And now I can sit in on the 2023 in January and really be confused.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

210.8 was changed in 2017 code. I have installed GFCI protection on 3 ph pin and sleeve welding receptacles. I have no problem following the code. But it’s for branch circuits, not feeders.


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

I misread this thread initially. On 2020 NEC branch circuits up to 250v require gfci protection, yes - but not feeders. I was lost on this and thought the inspector wanted a GFCI somewhere in the trailer. This changes my opinion significantly. I still stand by my comment that if he's somehow still able to force you to install the GFCI breaker, then do it, but get paid for it. I agree with Splatz to defend yourself or else he's going to think he can do this to you all the time.


----------



## splatz (May 23, 2015)

backstay said:


> NEC 210.8, All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three- phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.


Open ...



> Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s). (CMP-2)





backstay said:


> Just like an RV, it has a service panel with OCP for its branch circuits. 210.8 is not about feeders.


... and shut.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

It’s a sticky situation. With the trailer pluged in it’s a feeder. Unplug the trailer and it becomes a receptacle. Did he inspect it with the trailer plugged in?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes, it goes away when the job is done.


----------



## nrp3 (Jan 24, 2009)

See now with mention of the 2017 I need to go back and read it closely myself and the 2020.


----------



## joe-nwt (Mar 28, 2019)

backstay said:


> I’m surprised the Canadians were hinting at that. 👍🏻 🇨🇦


We have an interest because whatever foolishness you put up with today, we put up with tomorrow.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

to begin with i agree with backstay completely
the inspector did not cite his service installation, but rather the trailer it is intended for

on the other hand from the inspector's point of view
what leverage does he have to cause the trailer to be upgraded if he allows the meter to be put in?

several years ago around here if you needed a meter out of town for whatever reason
the health inspector would also come and check your sewer system
if it did not pass .... no meter

country sewer systems had not been inspected or upgraded since the 60's when they put concrete well curbing with an inlet and outlet spaced to trap solids and now had clogged and/or collapsing field lines that barely let liquid straight thru to the outlet


----------



## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

I am with you about the rv outlet. It does not need gfi in an rv park. If you install that same outlet on a yardpole in a farm yard it needs gfi. I have been written up for that install. go figure.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

It wouldn’t require GFI protection on a construction site either. Only 30a and down.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Why would an RV receptacle need GFCI at a dwelling? It’s still a feeder.


----------



## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

tell that to the inspector.


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

tmessner said:


> tell that to the inspector.


you should have asked the inspector to cite the code
as mentioned earlier, every time any one of us gives in, it makes it worse for the others in the area


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

tmessner said:


> tell that to the inspector.


What code reference did you get?


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

I'm tellin' ya dude, go with 590.6 if the inspector persists.

Andy.


----------



## tmessner (Apr 1, 2013)

They are calling them "outlets" as in the NEC definition. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply equipment. A feeder is the wiring up to the final ocpd, so the device needs the gfi not the circuit


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

tmessner said:


> They are calling them "outlets" as in the NEC definition. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply equipment. A feeder is the wiring up to the final ocpd, so the device needs the gfi not the circuit


A RV has its own ocpd.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Am I understanding this correctly? A towable trailer has a 50 amp, 240/120 volt power tail that plugs into a weather rated 50 amp , 240/120 volt receptacle. The 50 amp weather rated receptacle is fed with a 50 amp, 240/120 volt branch circuit. If that is correct then you need GFCI for the 50 amp weather rated receptacle.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> Am I understanding this correctly? A towable trailer has a 50 amp, 240/120 volt power tail that plugs into a weather rated 50 amp , 240/120 volt receptacle. The 50 amp weather rated receptacle is fed with a 50 amp, 240/120 volt branch circuit. If that is correct then you need GFCI for the 50 amp weather rated receptacle.


The 50 amp receptacle is fed with a feeder. There are ocpd after the receptacle.

NEC 100

Branch Circuit.


The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s). (CMP-2)


Feeder.

All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device. (CMP-10


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> The 50 amp receptacle is fed with a feeder. There are ocpd after the receptacle.
> 
> NEC 100
> 
> ...


So if this 50 amp receptacle is considered a feeder then you need a service rated disconnect and not a plug for the trailer. But as Hertz Hound implied, unplug the trailer then the receptacle is a branch circuit.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> So if this 50 amp receptacle is considered a feeder then you need a service rated disconnect and not a plug for the trailer. But as Hertz Hound implied, unplug the trailer then the receptacle is a branch circuit.


Had a disconnect, why service rated. Feeders are not a service.


----------



## vicleo48 (6 mo ago)

MikeFL said:


> Why state inspection and not city/ county?
> State DOT project? They may have their own regulation which you are not aware of.


MikeFL, here in Washington State, over 70% of the electrical inspections are done by the Washington State Department of Labor and Industries and their division of Electrical Inspectors. Only a few cities have their own electrical inspectors and a lot of contractors have found that the state costs them a lot less than the cities do. Unfortunately, due to having the receptacle there, it would require GFCI protection, due to the fact that it is possible for someone to unplug it and plug in say a welder, brick saw, or another device. His other option would be to install a cheap 50 A. HVAC disconnect and hardwire the disconnect into the panel then the cord into the disconnect but that's just my opinion.


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

As I understand it, the 50 AMP receptacle in question is intended to accept a cord or feeder lines which in turn feeds the panel of the trailer. Therefore the receptacle is part of the feeding source and not subject to GFCI requirements.
I find it a weird system as it would seem that the cord plugging into the receptacle would have to have male cord caps on each end that would be a no go.

Andy.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

The cord is part of the trailer, hardwired at that end.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> So if this 50 amp receptacle is considered a feeder then you need a service rated disconnect and not a plug for the trailer. But as Hertz Hound implied, unplug the trailer then the receptacle is a branch circuit.


I have done so many trailer installations supplied by cord and plug that I wouldn't want to count them all. Every communications shelter we did which was accessible by road got a double purpose office and work trailer.

Manufactured Buildings can be supplied by cord and plug to facilitate movement as needed. They can also be supplied by Quadruplex cable which is listed for direct burial. Because it is a separate structure supplied through a feeder you wire it exactly the same as if it were stick built. The main bonding jumper provided with the panel mounted in or on the structure is not installed or is removed if factory installed. You install the driven rods or other electrodes just like you do for any other building disconnecting means. 

Way back in my youth, low these 45 years gone, all trailer services were mounted off the trailer and the service panel had a fifty ampere receptacle on it regardless of whether it was used or not. For decades I used a Trailer Service Panel as our temporary power on heavy ups. Yank the meter, pull the meter tail back outside the building, terminate it in the manufactured building service equipment, and work from the one duplex receptacle under the panel cover. When the job was part of a remodel, storm repair, fire damage restoration... I would plug a 3R MLO panel into the 50 ampere receptacle and end up with the 8 duplex 20 ampere receptacles that were mounted in WP 2 gang boxes nippled off of each side of the panel. The Service Panel also had the terminals for a hard wired feeder which I occasionally used for a temporary supply to the existing service equipment in the building. I'll confess I wired the earliest of those just like feeder supplied buildings were wired back then with 3 wire SEU. All the inspectors ever saw was the Service Equipment panel. I'd only plug in the temporary panel after they had come and gone. 

I fully agree with the previous posters who have written that it is sometimes better to quietly appeal then to let the inspector get away with a bad ruling. Especially when you know you'll be doing more such installations in their jurisdiction. I sometimes specialized in Fire Alarm work for a time and that was the one type of work that I did were the inspectors often came up with bogus rulings. I was repeatedly told to reinstall Class B fire alarm systems as Class A. I learned that the best approach was to say that I needed them to cite me so I could get paid for the extra. I often got a call back through the office that I should disregard the citation. I could only guess that they went and looked at their copy of the approved drawings and saw that it was specified as Class B and decided to back off. I told a couple of them that they didn't have the authority to enforce fire codes and those where the regulations on which class of system had to be used were found. Once I got through the Fire Marshal witnessed system inspection I just wasn't willing to listen to an electrical inspector's musings on how it should have been designed.

Tom Horne


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> I have done so many trailer installations supplied by cord and plug that I wouldn't want to count them all. Every communications shelter we did which was accessible by road got a double purpose office and work trailer.
> 
> Manufactured Buildings can be supplied by cord and plug to facilitate movement as needed. They can also be supplied by Quadruplex cable which is listed for direct burial. Because it is a separate structure supplied through a feeder you wire it exactly the same as if it were stick built. The main bonding jumper provided with the panel mounted in or on the structure is not installed or is removed if factory installed. You install the driven rods or other electrodes just like you do for any other building disconnecting means.
> 
> ...


What was done in the past might not comply with the 2020 NEC. The way I read it is a receptacle then it needs GFCI as per 2020 NEC. If it is a feeder then the receptacle which is a disconnect has to be service rated.


----------



## grizzlychaw (Feb 25, 2012)

AndianaJones said:


> This is a temporary installation and therefore is under 590.6 Which pretty much states the same thing but not for 50 AMP circuits.
> 
> 
> Andy



*590.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel. *Ground-fault
protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations
*shall be provided to comply with 590.6(A) and (B). *This
section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used
to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel
during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or
demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities. This section shall apply to power derived from an electric
utility company or from an on-site-generated power source.

*
(B) Other Receptacle Outlets. *For temporary wiring installations, receptacles, other than those covered by 590.6(A)(1)
through (A) (3) used to supply temporary power to equipment
used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, or equipment, or similar activities, shall have protection in accordance
with 590.6(B) (1) or the assured equipment grounding conductor program in accordance with 590.6(B) (2).

*(1) GFCI Protection*. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

*(2) Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program.* A
written assured equipment grounding conductor program
continuously enforced at the site by one or more designated
persons to ensure that equipment grounding conductors for all
cord sets, receptacles that are not a part of the permanent
wiring of the building or structure, and equipment connected
by cord and plug are installed and maintained in accordance
with the applicable requirements of 250.114, 250.138,
406.4(C), and 590.4(D).
(a) The following tests shall be performed on all cord
sets, receptacles that are not part of the permanent wiring of
the building or structure, and cord-and-plug-connected equip-
ment required to be connected to an equipment grounding
conductor:
(1) All equipment grounding conductors shall be tested for
continuity and shall be electrically continuous.
(2) Each receptacle and attachment plug shall be tested for
correct attachment of the equipment grounding conduc-
tor. The equipment grounding conductor shall be
connected to its proper terminal.
(3) All required tests shall be performed as follows:
a. Before first use on site
b. When there is evidence of damage
c. Before equipment Ls returned to service following any
repairs
d. At intervals not exceeding 3 months
(b) The tests required in 590.6(B) (2)(a) shall be recor-
ded and made available to the authority having jurisdiction.
The assured equipment grounding conductor program shall
be documented and made available to the authority having
jurisdiction.


----------



## AndianaJones (5 mo ago)

Originally my thought is that 590.6 A(1) 

(1) Receptacle Outlets Not Part of Permanent Wiring.



All 125-volt, single-phase, 15-, 20-, and 30-ampere receptacle outlets that are not a part of the permanent wiring of the building or structure and that are in use by personnel shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. In addition to this required ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel, listed cord sets or devices incorporating listed ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel identified for portable use shall be permitted.


Has no mention of 50 AMP circuits nor does it even mention any 240 Volt outlets requiring GFCI.

At least it is something that could be brought up to the inspector.

Andy.


----------



## emtnut (Mar 1, 2015)

Lotsa talk about a receptacle here. Not much about a feeder.

So, for easy math, lets say 6 circuits, so they each get 1mA GFCI then ... right ?

😂 

Poor AC won't like that much.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

NEC 545.22 refers to 590 and as Grizzly pointed out 590.6.B


----------



## P.WRecker (5 mo ago)

Slay301 said:


> Around here if it’s gonna be around longer than a year temporary rules don’t apply. I once had a inspector have me drive 4 ground rods for a double wide office trailer. 2 for each side


 Inspector wouldn’t allow the 2 halves bonded to eachother?


----------



## Slay301 (Apr 23, 2018)

P.WRecker said:


> Inspector wouldn’t allow the 2 halves bonded to eachother?


Had to do that too


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

P.WRecker said:


> Inspector wouldn’t allow the 2 halves bonded to eachother?


Maybe 4 corners to make sure the metal siding is grounded? I remember back in the days of Aluminum siding. Town wanted 4 ground rods for the siding.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> What was done in the past might not comply with the 2020 NEC. The way I read it is a receptacle then it needs GFCI as per 2020 NEC. If it is a feeder then the receptacle which is a disconnect has to be service rated.


Since when is a feeder's wiring required to be service rated. There is no such thing as a receptacle marked "Suitable For Use As Service Equipment." Go ahead look in the UL white book. You will not find one! The "Building Disconnecting Means" has to be on or in the building served. You'll find it in the manufactured building's electrical panel. Why do people keep writing "a receptacle needs a GFCI?" Based on what? People keep siting a code section which does not apply to feeders or a section which does not apply to 50 ampere receptacle outlets. There are all sorts of cord and plug connections which are part of Feeder circuits. They are very commonly used in military installations; please do not try to tell me that the US Army Corps of Engineers does not know what is permissible under the US National Electrical Code. It would be irrefutable proof that you do not know what you are writing about; mining, ship building, and the list goes on. Next someone will assert that the code requires GFCI protection for 50 Ampere receptacle outlets mounted on transportable generators. That would inevitably be followed by the assertion that 100 ampere and larger ampacity pin and sleeve receptacles must be protected by a GFCI. If I make that same connection to a terminal block mounted in the Service Equipment Enclosure then no GFCI. That is very often done using cables fitted with durable crimp on terminal pins. It's a listed electrical cord and it plugs in, albeit one conductor at a time, to connecting sleeves mounted on the terminal block. Lets even suppose that it is protected by a 2 pole, or even a 3 pole 3Ø, 50 ampere Over Current Protective Device (OCPD). Is that a receptacle? It requires no tools to connect the cord to them. Like all other plugs it has a means to support the cable which does not rely on the electrical terminals. The next assertion will be that when Wago comes out with a 10 AWG listed lever locking splice that it cannot possibly be used in 30 ampere feeders because??? OK I surrender. Beam me up Scotty...

Why are we straining at gnats? The maxim of the law is that "Silence Is Consent." The US NEC is silent on cord and plug connected feeders. The sections being referred to here are not in the portion of the NEC which addresses feeders. How then do some not recognize that the GFCI protection of receptacle outlets does not apply to feeders. 

Tom Horne


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hornetd said:


> Since when is a feeder's wiring required to be service rated. There is no such thing as a receptacle marked "Suitable For Use As Service Equipment." Go ahead look in the UL white book. You will not find one! The "Building Disconnecting Means" has to be on or in the building served. You'll find it in the manufactured building's electrical panel. Why do people keep writing "a receptacle needs a GFCI?" Based on what? People keep siting a code section which does not apply to feeders or a section which does not apply to 50 ampere receptacle outlets. There are all sorts of cord and plug connections which are part of Feeder circuits. They are very commonly used in military installations; please do not try to tell me that the US Army Corps of Engineers does not know what is permissible under the US National Electrical Code. It would be irrefutable proof that you do not know what you are writing about; mining, ship building, and the list goes on. Next someone will assert that the code requires GFCI protection for 50 Ampere receptacle outlets mounted on transportable generators. That would inevitably be followed by the assertion that 100 ampere and larger ampacity pin and sleeve receptacles must be protected by a GFCI. If I make that same connection to a terminal block mounted in the Service Equipment Enclosure then no GFCI. That is very often done using cables fitted with durable crimp on terminal pins. It's a listed electrical cord and it plugs in, albeit one conductor at a time, to connecting sleeves mounted on the terminal block. Lets even suppose that it is protected by a 2 pole, or even a 3 pole 3Ø, 50 ampere Over Current Protective Device (OCPD). Is that a receptacle? It requires no tools to connect the cord to them. Like all other plugs it has a means to support the cable which does not rely on the electrical terminals. The next assertion will be that when Wago comes out with a 10 AWG listed lever locking splice that it cannot possibly be used in 30 ampere feeders because??? OK I surrender. Beam me up Scotty...
> 
> Why are we straining at gnats? The maxim of the law is that "Silence Is Consent." The US NEC is silent on cord and plug connected feeders. The sections being referred to here are not in the portion of the NEC which addresses feeders. How then do some not recognize that the GFCI protection of receptacle outlets does not apply to feeders.
> 
> Tom Horne


Thank you


----------



## Matt Hermanson (Jul 18, 2009)

Start with 210.8(B) which calls for the GFCI protected receptacle.

Then review 545.28 which seems to ADD to 210.8(B).
Article 545 has been modified in the 2020.
It seems that 545 is limited to non dwelling unit uses.

Then review 550.13 which seems to limit 210.8
With the changes in 545 and 550, it seems that 550 is limited to dwelling unit uses.

Then review 551.71(F) which seems to limit the supply receptacle GFCI requirement to the 15 and 20 amp receptacles.
But article 551 seems to be limited to "RV Parks" type locations and our temporary trailer location does not meet the definition of an "RV Park."

A review of article 552 seems to limit it to non commercial uses and it seems that CMP-7 did not care to add the limiting GFCI language that has been added elsewhere.

So article 545 will apply long before either 550 or 551 or 552 could come into play.

But what about article 590 as several have commented.
Well, it is a temporary installation.

So let's review 590.6.
590.6(A)(1) seems to be limited to 15, 20, and 30 amp circuits.
This is a 50 amp circuit.
590.6(A)(2) is for receptacles that are part of the permanent wiring.
This is a temporary install.
590.6(A)(3) is for receptacles located on and supplied by a 15-kw or less generator.
This is utility supplied.

That leave 590.6(B).
590.6(B)(1) allows GFCI protection.
590.6(B)(2) allows an Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program.
But notice the final sentence of 590.6(B)(2):
"The assured equipment grounding conductor program shall be DOCUMENTED and made available to the authority having jurisdiction."

So yes, you could omit the GFCI protection for the 50 amp receptacle IF you have a documented "Assured Equipment Grounding Conductor Program."

OR . . . .

you could just use seal tight and THHN/THWN conductors.


----------



## Knightryder12 (Apr 4, 2013)

backstay said:


> Today I got an email from the state saying I had failed an inspection on a job trailer I installed a service to. Here is the body of the email. I removed names to protect the guilty.
> 
> 
> As a result of a recent inspection, correction(s) are required. Please see the attached Inspection Report, (Redacted)submitted by James xxxxxxxx for inspections performed on 08/17/2022. Please make the correction(s) necessary to bring the installation into compliance with the requirements.
> ...


Its a job site office trailer, does the trailer have a panel? Does the panel or the receptacles that are in it have the GFI protection that is required? I would say you do not need the GFI protection on the "feeder" to the trailer.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Matt Hermanson said:


> Start with 210.8(B) which calls for the GFCI protected receptacle.
> 
> Then review 545.28 which seems to ADD to 210.8(B).
> Article 545 has been modified in the 2020.
> ...


Nice step by step answer. First find out what this trailer is classified as and go from there. I believe the OP said he was on the 2020 NEC and that is where NEC 545 relocatable structures first appears.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> Since when is a feeder's wiring required to be service rated. There is no such thing as a receptacle marked "Suitable For Use As Service Equipment." Go ahead look in the UL white book. You will not find one! The "Building Disconnecting Means" has to be on or in the building served. You'll find it in the manufactured building's electrical panel. Why do people keep writing "a receptacle needs a GFCI?" Based on what? People keep siting a code section which does not apply to feeders or a section which does not apply to 50 ampere receptacle outlets. There are all sorts of cord and plug connections which are part of Feeder circuits. They are very commonly used in military installations; please do not try to tell me that the US Army Corps of Engineers does not know what is permissible under the US National Electrical Code. It would be irrefutable proof that you do not know what you are writing about; mining, ship building, and the list goes on. Next someone will assert that the code requires GFCI protection for 50 Ampere receptacle outlets mounted on transportable generators. That would inevitably be followed by the assertion that 100 ampere and larger ampacity pin and sleeve receptacles must be protected by a GFCI. If I make that same connection to a terminal block mounted in the Service Equipment Enclosure then no GFCI. That is very often done using cables fitted with durable crimp on terminal pins. It's a listed electrical cord and it plugs in, albeit one conductor at a time, to connecting sleeves mounted on the terminal block. Lets even suppose that it is protected by a 2 pole, or even a 3 pole 3Ø, 50 ampere Over Current Protective Device (OCPD). Is that a receptacle? It requires no tools to connect the cord to them. Like all other plugs it has a means to support the cable which does not rely on the electrical terminals. The next assertion will be that when Wago comes out with a 10 AWG listed lever locking splice that it cannot possibly be used in 30 ampere feeders because??? OK I surrender. Beam me up Scotty...
> 
> Why are we straining at gnats? The maxim of the law is that "Silence Is Consent." The US NEC is silent on cord and plug connected feeders. The sections being referred to here are not in the portion of the NEC which addresses feeders. How then do some not recognize that the GFCI protection of receptacle outlets does not apply to feeders.
> 
> Tom Horne


First the Federal Government does not follow the NEC unless the RE says to. 
When I said the receptacle has to be service rated I was being facetious. 2020 NEC is the first to address trailers that are not intended to be used as a home. It specifically has an added section under 545 Part II as relocatable structures. The 2017 NEC has a mention in 550.4.A and classifies it under mobile home. There is a set of rules to follow but they are not specific on GFCI but weaving through the NEC you might come up with a conclusion depending on what sections come into play. That is where I picked up a service rated disconnect for mobile homes not attached or part of the mobile home. Going back to the 2020 NEC and keeping it simple without the what ifs: Matt and Grissley brought it out best.
545.22 which refers to 590. If this is a temporary installation then 590.6B applies. Is GFCI needed? Most likely not but the " what if" comes into play. What if someone comes along and plugs in their EV to charge?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> First the Federal Government does not follow the NEC unless the RE says to.
> When I said the receptacle has to be service rated I was being facetious. 2020 NEC is the first to address trailers that are not intended to be used as a home. It specifically has an added section under 545 Part II as relocatable structures. The 2017 NEC has a mention in 550.4.A and classifies it under mobile home. There is a set of rules to follow but they are not specific on GFCI but weaving through the NEC you might come up with a conclusion depending on what sections come into play. That is where I picked up a service rated disconnect for mobile homes not attached or part of the mobile home. Going back to the 2020 NEC and keeping it simple without the what ifs: Matt and Grissley brought it out best.
> 545.22 which refers to 590. If this is a temporary installation then 590.6B applies. Is GFCI needed? Most likely not but the " what if" comes into play. What if someone comes along and plugs in their EV to charge?


What if someone might change their house into offices. Are you going to replace the service conductors because they were sized off the exemption that allowed 4/0?

I think the office trailer owner is going to know and not appreciate someone unplugging his trailer and stealing power. When the office trailer leaves, the service leaves. Such is the nature of temporary job trailers.


----------



## Going_Commando (Oct 1, 2011)

I would do the easy thing and take the cord end off the cord, hardwire the trailer cord to the breaker, and you're done. 

I haven't seen a job trailer with a cord and plug on it. The ones I have hooked up just have a hunk of conduit hanging out of the panel and we just slide cord or SER up it.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> Most likely not but the " what if" comes into play. What if someone comes along and plugs in their EV to charge?


Can you point out even one model of electric vehicle which has a charging cord that terminates in a 14-50 P or it's pin and sleeve connector equivalent? I won't even quibble if it is an optional extra that is only available for use on electric powered ambulances as long as it is not by special order. If it's on the manufacturers options list that will be good enough for me. 

What I can see getting plugged into that receptacle is the shore line for another manufactured building such as a mobile guard shack, blood drive trailer, mobile disaster command post, advertising display....

Tom Horne


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> First the Federal Government does not follow the NEC unless the RE says to.


OK I missed it. Were does the federal government come into this discussion or are you just adding that as a kitchen sink statement to confuse the question? 

Tom Horne


----------



## Almost Retired (Sep 14, 2021)

hornetd said:


> Can you point out even one model of electric vehicle which has a charging cord that terminates in a 14-50 P or it's pin and sleeve connector equivalent? I won't even quibble if it is an optional extra that is only available for use on electric powered ambulances as long as it is not by special order. If it's on the manufacturers options list that will be good enough for me.
> 
> What I can see getting plugged into that receptacle is the shore line for another manufactured building such as a mobile guard shack, blood drive trailer, mobile disaster command post, advertising display....
> 
> Tom Horne


all kinds of EV cars come with all kinds of adapters
there is a thread on here where they show a 14-50R installed for the customer's EV
so yes that is possible


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Going_Commando said:


> I would do the easy thing and take the cord end off the cord, hardwire the trailer cord to the breaker, and you're done.
> 
> I haven't seen a job trailer with a cord and plug on it. The ones I have hooked up just have a hunk of conduit hanging out of the panel and we just slide cord or SER up it.


And that’s what is normal for me too. This trailer is different, it is smaller and has always come with a cord and plug. They use it in portable situations. Rarely is it connected to the grid. If it wasn’t 2-1/2 hours away, I might have thought about hard wire. But the inspector is wrong and that doesn’t warrant caving.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

Almost Retired said:


> all kinds of EV cars come with all kinds of adapters there is a thread on here where they show a 14-50R installed for the customer's EV
> so yes that is possible


Yes but that is not what I was asking was it. This mythical EV driver would have to be carrying an illegal plug adapter which permits a vehicle charging plug to connect to a 14-50R receptacle. By adapter I means a straight connection adapter that is pin to pin connected without any other circuitry of any kind. If you add over current protection I think I would be justified in arguing that you have an ampacity limiting connector that might even have a laboratory listing mark. You'll never find a listing mark on a straight through pin to pin adapter from one voltage receptacle to another. 

Tom Horne


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> Can you point out even one model of electric vehicle which has a charging cord that terminates in a 14-50 P or it's pin and sleeve connector equivalent? I won't even quibble if it is an optional extra that is only available for use on electric powered ambulances as long as it is not by special order. If it's on the manufacturers options list that will be good enough for me.
> 
> What I can see getting plugged into that receptacle is the shore line for another manufactured building such as a mobile guard shack, blood drive trailer, mobile disaster command post, advertising display....
> 
> Tom Horne


Almost all charging ports above 40 amps call for a 14-50 receptacle. At least the 6 I did this year so far.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> What if someone might change their house into offices. Are you going to replace the service conductors because they were sized off the exemption that allowed 4/0?
> 
> I think the office trailer owner is going to know and not appreciate someone unplugging his trailer and stealing power. When the office trailer leaves, the service leaves. Such is the nature of temporary job trailers.


The trailer owner is also the EV owner. If it is temporary then the receptacle requires GFCI.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> OK I missed it. Were does the federal government come into this discussion or are you just adding that as a kitchen sink statement to confuse the question?
> 
> Tom Horne


You brought up the military and Army Corp of Engineers.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

kb1jb1 said:


> Almost all charging ports above 40 amps call for a 14-50 receptacle. At least the 6 I did this year so far.


OK I retired 7 years ago. None of the receptacles that I've seen so far have been more than 30 amperes so I had thought the50 ampere type was not used. The brochures and advertisements that I had seen only said that a 30 ampere circuit would need to be added for the car charger. I have yet to see a vehicle charging cord with a 14-50 connector on it. Your saying that there are electric vehicles that have a charger that uses that much 240 volt power to recharge the battery? 

Tom Horne


----------



## ohm it hertz (Dec 2, 2020)

Tom,

Here's one. Spec sheet below.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

hornetd said:


> OK I retired 7 years ago. None of the receptacles that I've seen so far have been more than 30 amperes so I had thought the50 ampere type was not used. The brochures and advertisements that I had seen only said that a 30 ampere circuit would need to be added for the car charger. I have yet to see a vehicle charging cord with a 14-50 connector on it. Your saying that there are electric vehicles that have a charger that uses that much 240 volt power to recharge the battery?
> 
> Tom Horne


The mid level Tesla wall ports call for the 14-50 receptacle even though they are 240 volts only. There is no neutral. The first one I did blind without any instructions and installed 6/2 with a welder receptacle. I was told it was 50 amps and 240 volts. The unit comes In with a 14-50 molded plug. I don't these adapters are safe because you can plug a 20 amp cord into a 50 amp receptacle. The charger is in the car and not the thing on the wall. The thing on the wall enables the car to connect into the house power.


----------



## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

Well, we are waiting to hear what the inspector did when you quoted the codes back to him (bitch slapped him)?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

kb1jb1 said:


> The trailer owner is also the EV owner. If it is temporary then the receptacle requires GFCI.


I don’t understand, the trailer owner is a construction company that must provide the state with an office trailer on the road job. Where an EV comes in has me confused.

By taking the beds out of a house and putting in desks, that would change the usage of a dwelling to a non dwelling. Pretty simple change. So that means T310.12 is no longer usable. All 4/0 AL must be banned in a dwelling because it can be changed to an office. 

You’re not even considering that the job trailer would have no power now.


----------



## kb1jb1 (Nov 11, 2017)

backstay said:


> I don’t understand, the trailer owner is a construction company that must provide the state with an office trailer on the road job. Where an EV comes in has me confused.
> 
> By taking the beds out of a house and putting in desks, that would change the usage of a dwelling to a non dwelling. Pretty simple change. So that means T310.12 is no longer usable. All 4/0 AL must be banned in a dwelling because it can be changed to an office.
> 
> You’re not even considering that the job trailer would have no power now.


I was just throwing in a monkey wrench into the installation. Unplug the trailer, which is easily done, and now you have an outdoor receptacle. Changing beds to desks is still a dwelling unit no matter how many desks you put in. What does the town or AHJ say it is? You have to file a change of use and zoning. Permits and inspections. Why can't you use 4/0 Aluminum in a commercial space?


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Not rated for 200 amps. And changing use is the same. I can’t and won’t be redoing a code compliant installation because someone might do something.


----------



## Djea3 (Mar 8, 2019)

backstay said:


> I can’t and won’t be redoing a code compliant installation because someone might do something.


So it has been 3 weeks since you first posted. Did you just refuse to return or did you convince the inspector or?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

I’m so disappointed. First Brian John got a red sticker and now you, backstay. Who do I look up to now? I got a red sticker last month but I deserved it. You and Brian know what you’re doing.


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

In Alberta, we have work camps housing thousands of people essentially fed with big, fat extension cords. No GFCI’s.


----------



## HertzHound (Jan 22, 2019)

99cents said:


> In Alberta, we have work camps housing thousands of people essentially fed with big, fat extension cords. No GFCI’s.


Do they put any seasoning on the cords, or are the workers in theses camps expected to eat them plain?


----------



## 99cents (Aug 20, 2012)

HertzHound said:


> Do they put any seasoning on the cords, or are the workers in theses camps expected to eat them plain?


🤣

We use bear spray for seasoning.


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

Djea3 said:


> So it has been 3 weeks since you first posted. Did you just refuse to return or did you convince the inspector or?


I wrote a reply on the sheet the state sent me. Indicating that the install was a feeder and not bound to the rules for branch circuits. I then uploaded that and attached it to the inspection report.

I’m not perfect, he inspected a heat only service I installed after that and dinged me for no surge protection. I haven’t done too many dwellings since the 2020 code went into affect (it was adopted late because of the China virus). So I missed that. So I installed a SPD, took a picture and sent that in.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

backstay said:


> a heat only service


Would you be so kind as to educate me on what a "heat only service" is. 

Tom Horne


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

99cents said:


> I’m so disappointed. First Brian John got a red sticker and now you, backstay. Who do I look up to now? I got a red sticker last month but I deserved it. You and Brian know what you’re doing.


Now I feel bad, mostly from hitting the ground when I fell off the pedestal! 



hornetd said:


> Would you be so kind as to educate me on what a "heat only service" is.
> 
> Tom Horne


The home has two services. One is the normal, we call a general service. The second supplies power to the home heating system at a different rate.


----------



## hornetd (Oct 30, 2014)

backstay said:


> The home has two services. One is the normal, we call a general service. The second supplies power to the home heating system at a different rate.


Oh. The last time I had to deal with that we called it discount metering. It was for clothes dryers and water heaters. That went the way of the Dodo because those see their heaviest use during the highest demand period of the day when the heavy loading causes the highest cost generating to be brought on line. For around the clock heating that may actually make sense. 

Tom Horne


----------



## backstay (Feb 3, 2011)

hornetd said:


> Oh. The last time I had to deal with that we called it discount metering. It was for clothes dryers and water heaters. That went the way of the Dodo because those see their heaviest use during the highest demand period of the day when the heavy loading causes the highest cost generating to be brought on line. For around the clock heating that may actually make sense.
> 
> Tom Horne


The PoCo has many time of use meter rates here. Water heating, 100 gallons that only heats from 11 PM to 7 AM. Dual fuel heating, must have secondary heat source. Off peak heat, runs 11 to 7 am. Plus electric vehicle charging.


----------

